subtlety

[short radish]

im sure the 5 rogue stack will come out in RWF sometime

[tepid trellis]

so just ride that delusion out

[brittle plinth]

I hate the raid utility argument personally. They tried that before and it just became silly.

[runic trail]

They can never know that it doesn't work on everything

It is our little secret

[swift tinsel]

#AtroIsNOTaRaidbuff

[short radish]

except theyve basically made every class that brings an offensive raid buff mandatory

[vale pine]

atro is strong enough to be considered worth

[tepid trellis]

eh

i dont agree with that

[fringe palm]

yeah noone knows thats why there were rogues on stix

[fringe palm]

rogue hasnt been weak enough yet to not bring it

[vale pine]

i am a atro hater, but i keep hearing this perspective from everywhere. So it is in general always considered to have a rogue required

[tepid trellis]

the poison itself isnt that good

like its nice

but its not "hard needed"

[brittle plinth]

I like the deepening shadows suggestion more and more

As I think about it

[fringe palm]

it would be really nice if we get the parry bug as a talent, huge value

[tepid trellis]

dont get your hopes up, i told the devs about it 2 years ago

[vale pine]

deepending shadow buff and lower energy costs on storm

[tepid trellis]

thats honestly a better raid buff xD

[vale pine]

add damage scaling per target to BP, so BP does a lot more damage on high targets

[brittle plinth]

Doesn't mean its not a great idea ❤️

[fringe palm]

people complained when i swapped to assa on mugzee

[tepid trellis]

same xD

[vale pine]

remove the target cap of secret

[brittle plinth]

And the clones?

[vale pine]

ye

[brittle plinth]

Remove sectech make it death from above

[vale pine]

na

[haughty mural]

The scaling of it is just buggy, isn’t it ?

[brittle plinth]

Too late I'm already midair

[haughty mural]

Targetscaling I mean

[vale pine]

yes

[brittle plinth]

There's nothing about secret that isn't buggy

It was programmed during a fever dream

[vale pine]

There is just a lot of things with rogue which are not intuitive

[haughty mural]

Id argue fixing that before doing something with the cap would be great

[vale pine]

well BP is still weak

for the trade off it has

[runic trail]

At least give me a glyph to make the shadow clones do the DFA animation

[brittle plinth]

That's kind of the fun of it but I suspect also why buffs are so rare. It randomly spikes in power I assume.

[vale pine]

you can have the same complex system

[brittle plinth]

Stop stop. I can only get so hard.

[vale pine]

with designs people understand

e.g. shadowcraft could be easier designed in a anticipation style form

[haughty mural]

Yea BP and and the need for FW is a problem aswell in certain situations

[tepid trellis]

!bugs

[vale pine]

with visual feedback

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[brittle plinth]

FW should be a personal buff during stealth stance

[vale pine]

FW should be removed

it just adds complexity

there is not much thinking involved

worse case you need to tab target

on low target counts

[swift tinsel]

Or you literally can’t proc it outside dance sometimes based on encounter design

[brittle plinth]

Remove it or make it baseline passive, it doesn't need to be a thought

[vale pine]

the secret target bug is basically, it should get reduced on 8+ targets, but gets on 5+

which means, secret does less damage than it should

CT is the same

[tepid trellis]

its more of a "we think its a bug"

since everything else we do is at 8

[vale pine]

but the other way around

it should be reduced on 5+ but is on 8+

[brittle plinth]

It may be a "nerf" to bring in the dmg

[vale pine]

fair

for ct its 100% a bug tho

[tepid trellis]

yes

[vale pine]

given this is stated in the tooltip

[brittle plinth]

CT is stronger than it should be?

[tepid trellis]

yes

[swift tinsel]

Sin gets all the fun stuff, that tracks

[brittle plinth]

That makes me feel better though

Our bros getting something is always a good thing

Even if they slimey poison pals

[vale pine]

its like this since the start of new talent trees

[swift tinsel]

Yep

[vale pine]

to be fair we had some fun stuff too, and the rotation on subtlety is way better

[swift tinsel]

I’ve been vocal about my frustrations with sin getting the option for all the niches

[vale pine]

i mean it does not matter

tuning is still the central factor of what gets played

[brittle plinth]

Sin is the solution being presented for rogue players

[vale pine]

e.g. as eleem mentioned the last fight might be benefitial for subtlety due to a damage amp phase

[swift tinsel]

I’d have to disagree from a player perspective though, having the option to talent into more prio or execute would be great

[vale pine]

so our "niche" is relevant

[swift tinsel]

Not having one spec get all of that to the exclusion of the other two

[vale pine]

it is how the dev team designed rogue, they like this perspective

it also steers players to assassiantion, which is the easiest of the 3 rogue specs

[swift tinsel]

Yep, which is frustrating

[vale pine]

so the fustration factor for new players is lower

[brittle plinth]

DMG amp phases are fun as sub

[vale pine]

next tier will probably be a lot of spymasters maxing

[swift tinsel]

I dont see why it has to be mutually exclusive though. You can steer new players to an easier spec without stripping the other two of the same options

[vale pine]

personal bias.

[swift tinsel]

That’s my big gripe

[vale pine]

game development is a very subjective topic, same with balancing

you see this in this channel

[swift tinsel]

Oh for sure

[vale pine]

where my opinion is very statistics/numbers driven

and guy's is very experince/perception driven

[tribal blade]

!guy

[vale pine]

e.g. we had a big argument when assassiantion saw buffs and had a big disagreement

[swift tinsel]

Or about dust

[vale pine]

he was of the oppinion that subtlety will remain the best raid spec and everyone will play it because of the damage profile

i was of the opinion that people will quickly go away from subtlety

we could not agree on this topic

so i did ask to wait a few weeks

[tribal blade]

historically people will jump ship from sub the moment it's not good anymore

[vale pine]

turns out subtlety play numbers ended up abyssal and subtlety was not played anymore

[swift tinsel]

I think I’ve seen more of this than people going to sin

[vale pine]

so in this case, the more objective assumption was correct

but also it isn't always

i assumed we would be hurt a lot by the loss of dust and its dynamic

while this is true to a degree

supercharger and the new talents play very well, so i was wrong in assuming we are worse off

[swift tinsel]

I think people get hung up on sub and the style of cooldown management and look for reasons not to play it

Which is hard to measure bc enjoyment is subjective

[vale pine]

i don't think so

many people ask for it to be competitive

to switch away from other specs

at least thats the experience of messages i get

like inherently, the reason most don't switch is "assasisantion is better"

[swift tinsel]

Are they people looking to play sub, or previous sub players wanting to come back?

[vale pine]

both

[swift tinsel]

Interesting

[vale pine]

subtelty has actually a very good spec fantasy

the thing just is

[vernal hull]

I would like subtlety better if I could see thirty seconds into the future and know what my tank was thinking.

[vale pine]

it has a lot of quirks which for some reason need to exist

and is punishing as hell

without compensating for good play

so you can brainafk play other specs

or sweat on subtlety to still be in best case in line with the brainafk

there are few exceptions we can get small wins, e.g. we are still one of the few specs to have a high initial aoe burst, so a well timed secret can allow us to pad slightly better than others.

[brittle plinth]

I mean no one I've seen ask for sub to be omega buffed either. Just need enough that justifies the dmg profile/skill expression for everyone and not just the best of the best.

[vale pine]

the problem here lies in perception

[brittle plinth]

Player base perception?

Or dev

[vale pine]

e.g. blizz has the perception that subtlety is at minimum 5% better than it shows on logs

going from the ion interview

the statement basically was, specs with low players don't attract good plaers so it will be at minimum 5% worse on statistics

[brittle plinth]

They really feel like sub has the potential to unbalance everything if things move a mm

[vale pine]

which is likely why they hold back on the buffs so much

the 10% buff would have put sub like 1-2% ahead of the other 2 specs

compensating for the higher effort

but was nerfed back down 5%

[brittle plinth]

1-2% for the top end?

Not us average joes

[vale pine]

relative to the other rogue specs

would be upper 1/3 of overall dps

it was also the first time buffs ended up this way

[fringe palm]

i would have thought burst is valued much higher than overall dps from a balance pov, so sub cant be top dps. evoker kinda makes that statement irrelevant though

[zenith prism]

this is very likely and once I came up with a model using Gaussian distribution

[swift tinsel]

Our burst was nerfed going into this tier and baseline (backstab) buffed to compensate

[zenith prism]

it showed up to be like ～4-5% diff are caused by bias

[vale pine]

its valued high if encounetrs allow you to utialize it, also assassiantion has good burst and good aoe^^

[short radish]

my sample size of 1 (myself) agrees with this statement.

last tier parses for me vs this tier parses.

I haven't really improved much in my gameplay, if anything I've taken min maxing a whole lot less seriously as well

[vale pine]

there is a lot of inconsistencies in design

[swift tinsel]

The blizz standard

[short radish]

so i've also come to the conclusion that all the good sub players have gone to assi

making it easier to parse higher

so now i dont want sub buffs

[vale pine]

XD

[short radish]

who cares about dps, it's all about the PARSE

[vale pine]

The problem is in the competitive nature of the game tho

which possibly break the model

having a lot more measurements and fine control does kind of defnd the entire theory

e.g. if you look up studies for what amount of change is needed to feel a diffrence

its 5-10%

in this sense, just statistically seen

the 5% buff to subtlety was actually 4% in numbers

[fringe palm]

even if that happens at worst you have to compete with other rogue players, very few people reroll to rogue or play it as an alt even if it performs well

[vale pine]

which would be below the perceptible value

[short radish]

yeah but the other rogue players that are on assi will come back

[vale pine]

my thesis on it is that if you have logs, damage meters and simulations

you can't argue generalized

because people get more sensitive and as such can probably make out a diffrence which is statistical insignificant

i would still say anything below 2-2.5% is not noticable

because the damage output is too "noisy" (means varies to much natrually)

[zenith prism]

Yes. I assume pff players select specs randomly and while top players has a 95% chance to select the stronger spec

[vale pine]

also game design wise, many talks about balancing did mention "overshooting and dailing back after" as the only efficient strategy.

which is also the strategy used during the entirety of DF

so this tier rly stands out with a change in strategy

[fringe palm]

thats really low effort aswell no? throw some numbers around that might be ok and see if its fine

the sub nerfs before the tier were reasonable because of transmitter power, but .5 at latest shoudve have had a compensation buff

[vale pine]

It did often mean the "Best spec" would cahnge during a tier atfer tuning.
E.g. you saw this in Castle nathria where assassiantion was suddenly the only spec played after tuning passes because of the diffrence in output while outlaw was the highest played before the buffs

[tribal blade]

felt pretty insulting that they were only focused on sub when it was "overperforming", but then when we fell behind in a big way they were very slow to do anything

[short radish]

especially when other specs don't get hit with the nerf bat nearly as quickly

[vale pine]

to be fair the overshooting and tuning down did also hurt other specs

[tribal blade]

exactly

[vale pine]

e.g. in DF s1

assassiantion and outlaw looked significantly stronger than subtlety, but both got nerfed

(not because sub was good but because of early wcl statistics)

which in the end did lead to everyone playing subtlety

something that repeated in season 3

[bleak wind]

@vale pine why is the symbols pre pull removed from the apl btw?

[fringe palm]

amidrassil was well balanced between assa and sub imo, fights just fit sub profile better

[vale pine]

was not a damage gain anymore

[hazy breach]

The prepull symbols was never in the APL

[vale pine]

subtelty had the advantage of dust, which was perfect for the raid

[hazy breach]

Because you cant do it in a nice way in the APL, you have to use events for it

[vale pine]

ohh

i think he means for supercharger

[bleak wind]

yes

[vale pine]

that was never in default

[bleak wind]

I see

[vale pine]

DF in generla was weird

because some balance chanegs came very late in a tier

giving players less time to adjust before a new season

it wasn't paced out well

[tribal blade]

releasing aug mid season 🙂

:))))))

:)))))))))))

[vale pine]

that too

but like iirc it was season 2

when they buffed assassination by quite a lot

[tribal blade]

yeah it was season 2

the worst single season of M+ ever

[vale pine]

but it was so close to the end of the season

[fringe palm]

youre going to love midseason havoc 2.0

[vale pine]

players did not rly switch fast enough to show up in the end of season statistics

[tribal blade]

nooo don't say that

although i might be retired next season from high key pushing

[vale pine]

Was the new DH spec officially confirmed yet

or still big mystery?

[swift tinsel]

mystery

the datamined void dh model is being used for the boss though so that 'mystery' has been solved

[tribal blade]

unless it's a support spec it won't be as bad as when they released aug

[fringe palm]

datamined model, datamined meta, fight with a clear 3rd dh spec. what could it mean?

[brittle plinth]

What was dust?

[swift tinsel]

laughs in Fandral Staghelm and fire cat model

[fringe palm]

vanish = 30s cd reduce on all other abilities

[brittle plinth]

On demand cdr? Noice

[vale pine]

basically vanish did recude all your cooldowns by 30 sec.
You did have easy access to 2x vanish back then

so you had a lot of dynamic in how you used your cooldowns

[tribal blade]

dust was the single most polarizing talent sub has ever had

[fringe palm]

most people disliked it for no reason and it got removed 🙂

[tribal blade]

big love hate relationship with it

[vale pine]

think the easiest comparison to it would be assassiantion next season

[swift tinsel]

"for no reason" kekw

[vale pine]

where one tier set changes your cd's to 90 sec

[brittle plinth]

I suspect ppl didn't like how much agency ppl had with it

[vale pine]

or keeps it on 120 sec

[tribal blade]

poor stealthi had to make an entire spreadsheet for raid on when to use dust timings

[silent ruin]

Lucky coin enjoyer

[vale pine]

so seaosn 3 you can decide wether you can play 90 or 120 sec depending on boss

[hollow spear]

Sin set is way more static than shadow dust was

[vale pine]

it was a bit more complicated but in the end did boil down to similar results

[fringe palm]

i mean thats just 1% minmax stuff for almost all fights, it was completly fine to send 1 vanish with each cds. unreasonable hate for it

[hazy breach]

Well keep in mind blades was 2 minutes as well (flag was still 90s)

[fringe palm]

wasnt hard to play

[vale pine]

yes

but also only slightly

[tribal blade]

it ended up being that yeah

[hollow spear]

And your statement is only true if fatebound and deathstalker end up being competitive

Which I highly doubt

[swift tinsel]

I think the biggest difference being needed to pick before a fight started with sin sets vs changing use on the fly with dust

but similar endgoal

[brittle plinth]

Would it be funnier if sin was given two functional hero trees

[tribal blade]

for M+ that season we mostly just ended up playing no dust DB and just held flag 30 secs for blades

[fringe palm]

its way more intuitive to send 1 dust vanish with each set of cds instead of knowing if you can use 1 or 2 dances between cds to not fuck everything

[vale pine]

well same applies to dust, if other talents ended up stronger in baseline we would have played 2 min cds^^

its not a bad comparision

dust just had a diffrent dynamic in how it changed cd's

[hollow spear]

Yeah but shadow dusts strength was that you could move cds around more easily

[vale pine]

i would not say easily

[hollow spear]

Which made it this spreadsheet monstrosity

[vale pine]

i think it would have been easy

if flag and blades

[hollow spear]

You won't have that with sin

[vale pine]

ende dup 90 sec

but the 120 sec

rly made it overly complex

[void ocean]

f*ck dust

[fringe palm]

there were 2 fights in 2 tiers that gained from moving cds, rest you just send on cd

[vale pine]

and you still in the end only palyed ~3 sequences

[hollow spear]

It's either 90s or 120s

Yeah, two fights

[tribal blade]

dust would maybe be ok if they reintroduced it with our current timings now

would be a lot easier to use

[vale pine]

yep

[hollow spear]

And it wasn't even unimportant ones

[void ocean]

ashes to ashes, dust to dust

[hollow spear]

I'd argue dust would have been super valuable this tier

[fringe palm]

for what

[void ocean]

ye, i guess both cds being 90s would lead to having same burst windows

[vale pine]

I mean anecdotally

dust was complicated in the 3rd raid

[hollow spear]

Add spawns etc

[vale pine]

but was the same sequence on every boss in the other 2 raids

[void ocean]

the thing i hated the most about dust is that every time u used cds in proverbial burst window, it was fckin different

[fringe palm]

there wasnt a single prog fight where you woudve have moved cds off of your normal pattern

[vale pine]

so i think the entire "dynamic" was highly overstated

because if you paly 2/3 raids not rly caring about your sequence

its more like a static cooldown

[hollow spear]

I'll leave that part for guy to battle out

[vale pine]

haha

[hollow spear]

But I agree with him that it's definitely a better tool than you make it out to be, fuu

[swift tinsel]

most passionate Dust enthusiast

[silent ruin]

What about the shroud talent, when will that be redesigned to not be in the path for symbols cdr 😄

[hollow spear]

I'm an enlightened centrist in that debate

[vale pine]

wdym

i am just saying

it was insane in one specific raid

so if its good, it can be rly good

[tepid trellis]

dont give me ptsd

[tribal blade]

hahahaaaa

[vale pine]

but it was also irreveant on two other raids

so if its not needed

its not rly that strong

similar to the sin tier set

if every boss is 120 sec

[tribal blade]

all the cooks on fyrakk were cool

[vale pine]

its extremely bad even

[hollow spear]

Yeah but that's where I disagree

[vale pine]

but if there is the option to benefit from 90 sec because of timing

[hollow spear]

Sin set is much worse than dust imo

[vale pine]

you now have the option to switch

[hollow spear]

Because it's contingent on more variables

[fringe palm]

dust was the same as sin set on 22/24 fights

[tepid trellis]

its funny how the FB set has issue for assa cuz CB doesent line up for 90sec xD

[hollow spear]

How does sin set actually work if you die?

[runic trail]

Goes back to 2 minutes I think

[hollow spear]

That didn't happen with dust ig

[runic trail]

I was briefly hopeful for the FB set until I saw that

Now I am less hopeful but there's time for tweaks I guess

[hollow spear]

Sin set in its current state is omega scuffed, as stealthi says

[hazy breach]

Hopefully they change CB to 40s and we can collaterally benefit

[fringe palm]

is that even a gain for sub xd

[hollow spear]

Would be better than removing the "spend your finishers" contingency

[hazy breach]

Yes makes it way easier to use CB inbetween

[hollow spear]

Since we have stacks of everything

Just make cb have two stacks

[hazy breach]

Because right now if you want to use it inbetween burst you need to use it literally immediately, because every second you delay cb is a second you'd have to delay flag

[tepid trellis]

2 stacks wont solve the cd issue of it

[hollow spear]

That's true

[tepid trellis]

hear me out, just put it at 30sec

[swift tinsel]

unless you mean two charges

[hollow spear]

Charges sry

I like the idea of moving it around a bit. I'd like to pop it when I just got my two coups.

[vale pine]

it would be rly wild if they changed it now

[hazy breach]

Idk then we just have to do the precise timing thing twice

The best solution is to just make CB passive and always apply to sectech in blades or something

[hollow spear]

Realistically we'd do it once in between and have a little more leeway

Because rn it's a 90s cooldown if you don't know exactly how long a fight lasts

[warm marlin]

Have you looked at forcing cold blood like that yet with new s3 APL

I’ve thrown some stuff in briefly and it seems a bit worse than s2

[hazy breach]

Wdym

[warm marlin]

Naked sectec is a lot stronger and you have more cdr on it to just throw it out

The robot doesn’t cast cold blood outside of flag

[hazy breach]

Ye

[vale pine]

i suggested this

or something similar

[warm marlin]

I have my own scuffed thing that casts it, and it is relatively worse compared to s2

[vale pine]

in my mid season article

[hollow spear]

How many more sectecs are we actually getting per 5 min cycle

[vale pine]

cb passive to snd or dance

*symbols or dance

[hazy breach]

Ye because it tends to lose sectech cast(s) forcing the cb outside of flag

[warm marlin]

ya and new tier makes that worse

might not really be worth playing around at all

[vale pine]

it is just too time sensitive

to rigit

[hollow spear]

Logically sound

[void ocean]

so

what spec is gonna be the best in s3 😄

[warm marlin]

well current season it seems to perform pretty good

Not necessarily like a giant upgrade or anything

[hollow spear]

CB is so satisfying on your 2nd sectec, but ally so unsatisfying in m+ when only three mobs are left

[vale pine]

we talk about blank cb casts between major cds

not the delay for 2nd secret

[warm marlin]

Yes

Your 4th dance of the fight is held for cold blood

And between every flag

[hollow spear]

What about in between cb with goremaw

[vale pine]

you think of specific fights?

[runic trail]

[vale pine]

because in general it seems to still have the same problem

[warm marlin]

I just do it on all of them

Unless you’re holding dance for adds so it doesn’t line up

[vale pine]

ah nice

[warm marlin]

I don’t think it’s good at all with new tier was basically my point

The extra unseen blades and coups are too strong

[hollow spear]

It's a dps increase rn if you know that you won't lose flags by holding a little, I think

[warm marlin]

If you get the timing down you only really delay flag by a second at most

[hollow spear]

Yeah, but even three or four seconds don't hurt if your guild kills sprocket in 4 min for example

[warm marlin]

You have to hold slightly because extra sht procs can screw you even if you perfect microsecond cast cold blood between

[hollow spear]

Not that you'll end up parsing with 4 min, but that's out of your control

[void hound]

non flag CBs are only a thing on lockenstock and maybe mugzee right now i think
there were more opportunities for it last tier

[warm marlin]

You can do it on gallywix and vexie too

[void hound]

actually you can squeeze in one on gally too

[hollow spear]

Maybe Stix?

Higher value with a lot of adds

[warm marlin]

idk I don’t fight that boss

[hollow spear]

Haven't played Stix in a long time

[warm marlin]

unenjoyable fight

[hollow spear]

OAB you're kinda bound to add spawns, same with Rik

Could it be a thing to keep symbols and dances for when you proc coup?

Or will you hamper your naked sectecs too much?

[warm marlin]

that is what I have been experimenting with

[hollow spear]

And what does that feel like?

Does it feel as good as goremaw?

[warm marlin]

On raidbots not ptr

On vacation so no wow access

[hollow spear]

Ahh

Any tangible effects?

[vale pine]

goremaws feels weak

[plush roost]

What if goremaws made your next 3 finishers do X% increased damage would it finally be viable

I love the button:(

[hollow spear]

Should have marked that as sarcasm

[vale pine]

inherently

any bad spell can be "fixed" by replacing it with something entirely diffrent if its good enough

Which often means you just designed a new spell

not made the old spell better

[short radish]

what if they just deleted goremaws bite

and we didnt have to think about it ever again

so its one less thing devs have to balance

[swift tinsel]

that would require attention to our talent tree

therefore undoable

[vale pine]

you would need to design a alternative

[swift tinsel]

like edge of niiiiiight

[vale pine]

probably the reason it got used in the first place

edge of night won't happen

you can't give execute to sub

[swift tinsel]

theyll just give it to everyone as a trinket instead

[vale pine]

i am just saying

thats mostly why eon is not consistered

[short radish]

why not

if assi can have execute

why cant we

[vale pine]

because it niches should stay within specs

like subtlety has the 90 sec cooldown niche now

[short radish]

hahahahahhahahaha

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[vale pine]

or funnel damage

or has the highest mobility

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/aintnoway-gif-27058877

[vale pine]

or is the only spec with meaningful benefits from stealth

unique deisgn

[lilac stag]

What if they just change goremaws back to the OG artifact trait including the WM interaction.

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/hahahahaha-gif-23474087

[brittle plinth]

Omg

That's so wrong

[short radish]

what if they change goremaws to the talent that made us taken 0 fall damage, but still put it as a capstone talent

[brittle plinth]

10/10 leveling talent

[lilac stag]

If you don’t know what it’s called are you even a sub rogue?

[brittle plinth]

It'll save 29 seconds leveling from 1-80

[vale pine]

😺 -like reflexes

[lilac stag]

it was amazing for world PvP

[short radish]

yeah

[vale pine]

sprint on water and no fall damage

both got purged too

[short radish]

jumping out in the middle of nowhere

[brittle plinth]

Sprint on water glyph was game changing

[vale pine]

even tho the above is me joking

[brittle plinth]

With bos

[short radish]

NO FUN ALLOWED FOR SUB

NO SPRINT ON WATER

[vale pine]

the reason EON was not considered was rly execute

[short radish]

NO NO FALL DAMAGE

[vale pine]

thats not a meme

[short radish]

soon stealth will be deleted

[brittle plinth]

It already is

[short radish]

and mages will have invis on a 10 second cooldown

[brittle plinth]

True sight on every mob

[vale pine]

could happen

[vale pine]

already is the case

kinda

in m+

[short radish]

theres one true sight mob on every pack in the raid

[swift tinsel]

arcane and fire can both talent into execute

[dry plank]

it is different

[vale pine]

its only for rogue

the rule

[swift tinsel]

be more punk rock

like a rogue should

[vale pine]

and also not if the rogue spec with the niche was subtlety

or outlaw

[swift tinsel]

oh tru

[vale pine]

in case of BF

[swift tinsel]

I actually feel almost worse for outlaw bc we stole flurry and dreadblades

but then I remember its outlaw so those feelings go away

[vale pine]

BF "steal" actually makes sense

because blizz just puts it on every melee

kinda

the concept is just easy to understand

[swift tinsel]

it turns our B aoe into A- ig

using Realz's metric

[vale pine]

I actually want to have metrics to compare

it is such a hard problem

[left ledge]

Can’t give execute to sub but you can give sin every niche in the game

[swift tinsel]

he admitted to grading sub's aoe as B or B+ to be generous

or however he phrased it

[left ledge]

[swift tinsel]

but is too lazy to fix it or come up with something better

[vale pine]

Subtlety i just this

[swift tinsel]

so we get bandaid nimble that isn't even effective up to its own hardcap

[swift tinsel]

saving this bc always relevant lol

[surreal glacier]

trying to learn sub and tbh it has better animations than sin

(both suck)

[vale pine]

haha

[surreal glacier]

but its better

[vale pine]

the nexus princess animations would fit sub well

[swift tinsel]

ugh which is why its so annoying

bc the assets are ripe for the taking

[vale pine]

but with a void themed dh spec ponentially releasing in the near future

[surreal glacier]

the new demon hunter spec is actually the sub rework

[vale pine]

i would think these would be also nice fit for the new spec

^^

[swift tinsel]

see they need to address that

we need a "It's not pirates" but for void dh

at this point it won't be a big reveal bc everyone is stirred up about it

[surreal glacier]

i wouldn't be surprised actually if they gave sub some void theme

[swift tinsel]

if it does become a thing

[surreal glacier]

even though i said it as a meme

although sub does feel like some ninja atm or whatever

[swift tinsel]

personally I'm in the 'its a cosmetic Green-Fire thing" camp

or void elf become dh thing

not new spec

more parsimonious based on presented 'evidence'

also Ky'veza Nether Phantoms are just Shadow Clones put through a thesaurus

[keen dome]

At most it's just Void Elf get DH in Remix

Because, like. The pact is literally with the raid boss we kill lmao

[swift tinsel]

Yeah that's another circle I can't square lol

lmfao this guy is a fucking menace

they're the one whos written all of the speculative articles

[lilac stag]

You mean Demon Hunter.

[keen dome]

WHO IS THE ILLIDARI, WOWHEAD. WHO IS IT.

[vale pine]

i mentioned it

[keen dome]

"There's one Illidari who has managed to do this. He has the knowledge to do it and teach others"

And we fucking kill him

[lilac stag]

I’m assuming that would be the route since they already have felrush and crap

[swift tinsel]

because it literally consumes him too lmao

[keen dome]

It's so dumb

I want blizz to come out and just go "uh no we're not donig a DH spec wtf are you thinking"

[swift tinsel]

fucking please god

just to put it all to rest

or confirm it

idc which

at this point

[night sparrow]

Hey guys with tier set coming next season, do u think we'll be able to double dance after second burst depending on procs ?

[hazy breach]

The set doesnt really change it much no

[night sparrow]

or cdr is too little

alright ty

[lilac stag]

That would be (indirect) communication to rogues and well there is no communication with rogues allowed.

[keen dome]

damn, good point.

At least I have the best name for this if they do it and i have ot level a purple DH

[lilac stag]

me big brain

[warm marlin]

Only conclusion I’ve draw personally so far is that cold blood is bad

[lilac stag]

and goremaws is good

don’t forget that one

[swift tinsel]

brb talenting 1/2 Vigor

[sullen hare]

me and the homies skipping secret techniques

[swift tinsel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1106224572811984956/1367129809951395871/9sftfb.gif

[left ledge]

The void dh boss drops a quest item for dh

Then they go turn it in and begin a questline to become void brugs

There it is, mystery solved surely

[swift tinsel]

that'd be my guess if its a cosmetic thing

optional boss dropping quest item for the dh's

[left ledge]

It’s ok

We will get a high haste dagger

That says “nothing personal” on it

[swift tinsel]

"+1 to Warning Signs when equipped"

[lilac stag]

They also get legendary glaives

[swift tinsel]

plot twist: Adarus, once empowered with the void and is supposed to teach void elves how to become dh's he says "nah fuck you lmao I'm out"

then dies

no void dh spec, no void elf dh

[warm marlin]

I’ll test it but I don’t think it will be good

And I think it’ll be really bad actually

Also I’m a dh 3rd spec believer

[ebon tiger]

Leona darkstrider is a secret subtlety rogue and apprentice of kyveza. she steals illidari techniques and merges them with subtlety then teaches us when Aldarus is dead

[surreal glacier]

it'll just be a hero talent

[keen dome]

haha

[surreal glacier]

you'll see

[keen dome]

If it is real I'm gonna get aotc on it. And be miserable.

[stoic spire]

Anyone still playing sub enough to stream keys or everyone swapped to ssin?

[swift tinsel]

might play havoc next season bc their tier set is a banger and AR is already real fun to play

as an alt

[clever delta]

@hazy breach solo told me to rush you little bit about S3 sims so please hurry up champ

[hazy breach]

I can spoil it for you

Deathstalker stinky

Trickster ait

[clever delta]

nice

[runic trail]

big if true

[clever delta]

thats all i wanted to hear

[sullen hare]

It's what most expected too I bet

[hazy breach]

As far as i can tell literally nothing changes

[sullen hare]

We just get a couple more coups

[hazy breach]

Play the same talents, play the game the same

Get new trinket, macro that with blades instead of old trinket

[clever delta]

assa dont feel really great in the new raid from my testing, unless they buff fatebound cleave by a lot, i can see sub and outlaw being the go to spec by design, tunning aside

[clever delta]

/use 13

[runic trail]

Gonna move it to 14 this season, shake it up a bit

[swift tinsel]

[runic trail]

Bit of variety ya'know

[swift tinsel]

real maverick move

I respect it

[clever delta]

i was actually using 13 on assa and 14 on sub for some reason (idk why)

[hazy breach]

Technically you could not macro it to blades if you want to be a cheeky bugger and hold it to stack up for the next flag, but that seems not worth in sims

Could be worth for damage amps n stuff ig

[swift tinsel]

whats the tentative % diff doing that?

[hazy breach]

-2%

[clever delta]

you are talkin about the stacking trinket or what

[swift tinsel]

is that with double on-use or with passive

[hazy breach]

Passive

[hazy breach]

Yes

[clever delta]

i feel like

that trinket NOT SO HOT

for us

as we dont stack it never fully

[swift tinsel]

wym

[hazy breach]

Doesnt matter

Its a 90s trinket

[swift tinsel]

its still a lot of stats if its not full

[clever delta]

yeah but 2m will just burst more

[hazy breach]

Well 2 min will likely use the other trinket

Thats got a 2 min cd

[clever delta]

im not big fan of not having trinket for opener, will it affect our potion usage too or what

[swift tinsel]

imma go lily+spyglass bc I'm a degen that likes it

[hazy breach]

As far as i could tell our options are pretty much use the spymaster one with every blades or use the 2 min one and pretend its got a 3 min cd

[runic trail]

90 second dungeon one not that great?

[hazy breach]

Well its like house of cards

Most of the power is in the passive

Not the active

So ye not great

[clever delta]

its great actually

cos

you can farm it

have it

and not beg for it

[sullen hare]

And not lose it to a healer

[hazy breach]

Ye its the pvp trinket of next season

[clever delta]

i dont mind cycling two on use

was there

did not mind it in DF S3

[swift tinsel]

I kinda like it bc you can super juice your later flag

[clever delta]

is the 2min one from raid i guees?

[sullen hare]

Which set was S3? Anshul and bombs?

[clever delta]

it decay right? so as flag go stronger trinket go wekaer 😄

[hollow plinth]

lies and slander !

[clever delta]

haha

look at him spying in here

[hollow plinth]

i feel the spider senses when my name is typed

[clever delta]

its not first time i can tell

the council dhs fight will be outlaw one

mark my word

s

[hollow plinth]

i have no idea what that means

[runic trail]

Can't wait to pop that and then die to something dumb

[clever delta]

yeah it decay, so it pump up first non cb sectech and than its weak when you have stacked flag and cb sectech 😄

[swift tinsel]

Pop with blades so its still what, 60-65% effective by 2nd sectech?

and you get a little value into 3rd dance

[short radish]

Is this an outlaw thing because guy has this as well

[swift tinsel]

instead of using with flag and losing some juice

[clever delta]

i never used trinkets with flag

you cant

if they are 15s long

[swift tinsel]

it's 30 sec

the buff from that trinket

[clever delta]

yeah i mean current one

[swift tinsel]

ye

[clever delta]

you always use them with blades

[hollow plinth]

maybe

[hazy breach]

How do you think theyll end up buffing the trickster set for outlaw but not sub solo

Since if its 10% for outlaw and 18% for sub thats not ideal

[vestal escarp]

sub is always the problem..............

[clever delta]

they will just fuck us up like always

[sullen hare]

Best I can do is a 10% nerf to the tier and 15% buff to black powder to compensate

[short radish]

Throw in a 30% backstab buff as well

[swift tinsel]

make it apply to PS maybe

idk how much of a dps gain that would be

[hazy breach]

Main thing i want to see is just fixing nimble flurry so it properly cleaves the shadowed eviscerate and make it work with blades somehow too so our aoe becomes better without needing to buff the silly powder

[swift tinsel]

yeah that would be a fantastic change

maybe whitelist nimble damage against armor

[hazy breach]

Since the tier set kinda stinks in huge aoe pulls

Ye lemme just use my 8 hardcapped spell a couple of times here

While starfall hits every single mob

[brisk onyx]

surprised to know that nimble flurry still has these bugs

[swift tinsel]

why surprised lmao

[short radish]

Wait till he hears about secret technique bugs

[hazy breach]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[hazy breach]

[brisk onyx]

[runic trail]

[surreal glacier]

[chrome palm]

[vale pine]

[swift tinsel]

[round latch]

[vale pine]

soo... bp needs to become starfall

[short radish]

Black powder sets off a chain of explosions that constantly explode in a 15 yard radius over 8 seconds. Multiple instances of these explosions can stack

[swift tinsel]

a dot that's effectively stackable and covers a large area

wouldn't be mad

inb4 blizz makes CT stackable for sin

[vestal escarp]

btw

both sin and sub tiersets stink for aoe

someone decided "nope no more m+"

[lilac stag]

I give you the season of outlaw

[runic trail]

[vestal escarp]

yippe?

.....?

[warm marlin]

My mass aoe opener of backstab sectec storm coup shadowstrike coup

[vestal escarp]

"fun's over boys"

[warm marlin]

Really blasting all those many mobs

Also I suspect netherprism won’t be nearly as hard as hoc to get

My melee guild members have been saying it’s not great when you’re lusting on pull since 0 stacks

so all those filthy haste scalers won’t want it much

[fallow nimbus]

Hoc isn't hard to get

[warm marlin]

For some of us man

[vestal escarp]

rare emoge

[lilac stag]

TBH I wouldn’t mind something different. Another season of exact same Sub isn’t exactly exciting.

Ooooh an extra coup and no being triggered by 8 never showing up in a timely manner or just falling off.

[bleak night]

next season mm gaming

[warm marlin]

One thing that is very nice on ptr is freely eviscerating without worry of tier set

If you ever happen to mess up your dance cdr before flag, you’re not going to get royally screwed by casting one non dance eviscerate between dances in blades and losing all your stacks

[hazy breach]

Theres also a good 2 min trinket this time around

[warm marlin]

ye that too

Plus the intellect people won’t be rolling on it

[hazy breach]

So like havoc, feral, enhance, assa and all casters dont want it

(or atleast has noticeable less priority on it compared to sub if they do want it for something)

I'd imagine warriors, unholy and WW still wants it but i have no idea

Probably MM too

[warm marlin]

the lust thing is really bad for mm though

their lust burst is wayyy bigger than their non lust burst

if you're lusting on pull its prob bad for mm

[warm marlin]

is that 2min trinket really that good though? for assa the decaying part is probably bad right

since they're mildly backloaded

[hazy breach]

Ye but it doesnt seem like you would lust on pull on the last two atleast

Or maybe the last is long enough that you can get two

[hazy breach]

Meh it doesnt decay that quickly since its over 30 seconds

The first 15 are still pretty strong when you use it with DM

[warm marlin]

then i do indeed foresee sub having rather high priority on prism

[hazy breach]

But ye maybe the spymaster one could be slightly better for assa, but either way the 2 min is solid

[swift tinsel]

the flexibility of prism is a fun prospect

[hazy breach]

Like the 2 min trinket is solid for sub

And were pretending its a 3 min

[vale pine]

everyone will want spymasters tho

[swift tinsel]

can fit triple dance in it too likely

[hazy breach]

Main difference compared to actual spymaster is that this one maxxes it stacks at 2:30

Not 4 min

[strange chasm]

just play ass and be able to do 1.5 min and 2 min

[hazy breach]

If they fix it

[warm marlin]

from what ive seen it seems much less hotly contested than the nerubar version

[hazy breach]

Like on assa as an example

[vale pine]

interessting

[hazy breach]

Youll be using it with your 2 mins anyway

Since you cant hold for 4 mins as that wastes most of it

So ye its slightly stronger every 2 mins, but you dont get anything on pull

I could see them changing it to 3 min to max it out but i feel like the 2:30 is such a deliberate number that its probably gonna stay that way

[swift tinsel]

I like that it doesn't really line up perfectly with any big cd's without playing into it a bit

[warm marlin]

i really like prism design tbh

[swift tinsel]

makes it more compelling as an option because it can be used differently

like yeah it can be used as a macro-to-blades thing and it has value, but you can work it differently to get more out of it in diff situations

[hazy breach]

I feel like it would be more interesting if it could stack higher, like 3:30 so we could actually hold it for our next flag without wasting stacks

[swift tinsel]

I've just been using it ~24-30sec after pull so it lines up and that often coincides with 3rd dance

and then its maxed with a couple sec before flag and it still stacks while the buff is up

so you kinda catch it between capping out and gaining stack 1

so no waste

but yeah, having it stack to 18 or even 20 to give that extra buffer would be nice

all things considered

[brave moth]

Is SecTec bugged in logs ?

[vale pine]

can be

if the one who logs is too far away from you

[brave moth]

Then ya

On Cauldron the one logging was the tank that was on the other boss

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/QFZgcn4M7thG6xdN?fight=11&type=damage-done&source=18

[vale pine]

so it is fight dependent, a fight this happens regularely is cauldron

[brave moth]

and we dont have aug

👍

[vale pine]

only way to fix is to log yourself

[frail skiff]

@vale pine

[vale pine]

?

[frail skiff]

tell me bro

does rupture

auto spread

among trash

or how is that working

i see rupture sometimes on add there i diodnt press it

[vale pine]

thats replicating shadows

it basically spreads to a target within range

[frail skiff]

how i deal with adds as sub

shuriken into what

when secret tehnique is on cd

[vale pine]

during cooldowns evis or bp

outside of cooldowns you would spread rupture

if adds survive for a bit

if they die fast, not worth to bother

[frail skiff]

so outside of cds if adds die fast

i also go

shuriken>bp

[hollow spear]

In guilds who hand out loot based on wowaudit 5min patchwerk sims, this should be a good thing for sub

[serene notch]

For all the folks pushing 16s and beyond in pugs, what do you feel like the avg rate of timed keys is?

For my last 15, a priory I think it was over 25 attempts, prob even more, with most of them ending on the first pull. I kinda imagine it becomes more true the higher you climb?

[vale pine]

well yes

[lilac stag]

LFG rogues

[bleak night]

[serene notch]

[lilac stag]

Ask IV. It’s normalized overall

[alpine wraith]

the wall of rogue

not letting the mid specs mingle with the bad

[lilac stag]

shocker. Belt sucks.

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/andy-cohen-mean-girls-you-cant-sit-with-us-sassy-gif-5136437

[warm wagon]

hey, if we kill mugzee in myth, can we use dinar on HoC from bandit (given I don't have the kill on him)?

[steel zinc]

No

You need to kill the boss to unlock it's loot

Let's say you only kill gally you can only buy gally loot

[west lake]

Do we shine again in s3 m+? :<

[lucid jackal]

Idk come back on the actual szn launch

[warm wagon]

expected as much, but I'm just a retired player acting as backup!

[steel zinc]

All 3 rogue specs rn are on ptr dumbster

But that means not a lot

[chrome palm]

I don’t see how sub is supposed to keep up in m+ with the current tier without it also being OP in st

Maybe fixing any of the bugs with nimble is a good start 🫣

[bleak night]

https://tenor.com/view/thats-the-neat-part-you-dont-invincible-gif-27194608

[chrome palm]

Or increase sec tech cap
Or buff flawless
Ig there’s quite a few ways

[spice matrix]

The additional 5% was too much apparently. We strayed too far from the bottom.

[charred sandal]

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/cappy-cappy-nft-sei-capybara-gif-12480774225986249777

[charred sandal]

https://tenor.com/view/bongosub-sub-rogue-world-of-warcraft-rogue-aoe-gif-27554873

this but with shadowstrike and evis

[lilac stag]

We’re no where close to OP with current tuning on ptr so don’t worry.

[wild hornet]

Are the TikTok canisters related to the intermission start? I can't quite get my hands down on when to send CDs so I don't have to overload myself with cdr and the entire movement

Also - does the small circle aoe from the adds do damage? Boss seems to always be too far that I'd have to stand in them

[wild hornet]

So right when #4 explodes

Fair

A little problem is that I'm in soak 4 before intermission

[lilac stag]

Why is that a problem?

[wild hornet]

Sometimes that 4th canister is a tad too far

From melee range

Not always

But sometimes

[lilac stag]

Your melee and healers are the two closest to the boss

you should never have a range issue of hitting gally. The hitbox is huge

[wild hornet]

From what I've seen boss ends up at the mirrored side of the video so I gotta risk getting hit by the adds spawning

Cause I'm just out of range

Not the greatest positionin

[lilac stag]

You’re moving there to avoid beams anyways

[wild hornet]

Was thinking of hugging boss, finishing my 2nd dance and shadowstepping to an unsuspecting melee

[wild hornet]

Last time I ran into the electric floor

[lilac stag]

And you’re secreting the adds not gally

[wild hornet]

Yeah I meant hug boss so I can continue the sectec cdr

During 2nd dance

Which I missed half the time cuz I didn't wanna die to the adds spawning

[lilac stag]

Don’t run into the floor shit

[wild hornet]

Do the add spawns kill you

Or is the dmg of them log

Low*

[lilac stag]

you’ve got a melee stack point. You all move together to get to the edge of the open space before rotating beam hits

[wild hornet]

Yeah my idea being that boss is closer to the opposite side of the melee stack point, half of the time I was barely in range and very close to the circles

On our pulls

[lilac stag]

You can literally be standing here and hit the boss

[mellow gull]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[brittle plinth]

butts!

!butts

No work

[amber smelt]

Why is Cold Blood with Secret Techniques a bad idea? (I'm a giga noob)

[opal basalt]

There’s a better timing for it

[charred sandal]

u want to coldblood tha second one when ur flag is all spiced up

[amber smelt]

Okay, thanks

[chrome palm]

you can macro cold blood with secret technique if you have a separate bind without cold blood

[warm marlin]

slightly earlier than this

flag when barrel is about half exploded

[swift tinsel]

Has the tier set been implemented into simc or is it getting ironed out yet?

Mimiron*

[hazy breach]

It has

[swift tinsel]

Noice

Will have to start poking around a bit when I have time

In terms of the apl, do I need to add anything for the tier set or has it been updated in the GitHub?

[hazy breach]

As far as i could tell practically nothing changes

Its just the same as previous tier, new trinkets are a bit more bursty but the tier is a little less bursty

[swift tinsel]

Yeah I kinda figured based on how the set is

Are all the trinkets in too?

[hazy breach]

Some are

[swift tinsel]

Thanks for the updates

[swift tinsel]

What they’re really doing is setting the stage for an absolute top-tier banger set of fixes and quality of life updates with 11.2.5 so everything’s been hush-hush while that’s in the works

[bleak night]

real

[swift tinsel]

Praying to 2010 MLG Raleigh-winning Nerdstomper Blue rogue Realz to make it so

Idk his Hearthstone accolades or I’d toss those in too

[lilac stag]

What drugs are you on and why aren’t you sharing.

[swift tinsel]

I have to be kinda sneaky about it bc everything is still illegal here

[lucid jackal]

So ready for another sub rogue tier

Who's with me guys

[swift tinsel]

I'm always sub pilled

unless they do something to make our burst feel super shitty to play, I'm not touching the other two specs

[short radish]

i just want sub to be average

fly below the radar of nerfs

[heady garden]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

no perma-stack bug on ptr to put us on the nerf radar like last time

[celest iron]

is there a macro that prevents u from pressing symbols while its already up

[molten citrus]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[molten citrus]

@celest iron

[celest iron]

ty!

[lunar bluff]

guys whats changed this season

i must hit last boss rookery as sub

dont i like not press evis if gonna cd soon and have tier stacks

[wild hornet]

Yeah melee hitbox is big

I gotta find a replay later

[chrome palm]

You can build to max cp and then continually backstab boss for tier set, escalating blade, and shadow techniques when flag is like 10-15s cd for rookery last boss. If you already have escalating blade at 2 and some tier stacks you can sit at 0 cp instead to build shadow techniques for longer, and then vanish for premed to fill cp into flag

[steel zinc]

All 3 rogue specs are in the dumpster

[rustic geyser]

I definitely wouldn't say that, they for sure suffer from a higher degree of baseline gameplay friction than others, but I'd hard doubt dumpster

[lucid jackal]

Damage on PTR is bad is what he's saying

[round latch]

is it that bad on PTR?

[rustic geyser]

it is what it is, numbers parsing is always weird early on

just gota hope they care about the 12 rogues in game

[round latch]

bold to assume they ever did

but ye

[wild hornet]

As long as assa is dragged down with the rest then fine by me

[wild hornet]

I just cope with the excuse people can't play rogue

[rustic geyser]

rofl, can't is a wild way to spell "don't want to"

luls

[wild hornet]

I just say skill issue to that

Less people better logs

[steel zinc]

Yes you do then a top 3 log and it's a 94%

Because no one is playing the spec

[wild hornet]

That's what I did on sprocket

The shortest lived 100 log I've seen

[steel zinc]

All 3 are rn on ptr not tuned well. That still means not a lot

[wild hornet]

Let me check what place it's on now

[wild hornet]

Oh boy that sure doesn't sound convenient

Surely they'll fix the tier sets right

[wild hornet]

Yeah it's exactly 94% now

But isn't my point about easier logs still standing

[rigid pasture]

they will buff them

and then they nerf sub

its what always happens

it wont change now

[steel zinc]

Imo rn sub gameplaywise is fine but the issue is the game moved on so much from the spec since df

Like other classes moved way ahead and fitted more to m+ and raid

Heck havoc has now one of the best funnels in the game even udk in mass pulls

Sub feels outdated rn and imo in aoe deathstalker sub is just bad gameplay

[haughty mural]

Imo it’s the other way around

[wild hornet]

Also possible

I feel it's pretty subjective

Kinda had a few arguments about that

[wild hornet]

I'm waiting for dstalker revive next season

[hollow spear]

I always parse better on sin even if I barely practice it. I'd argue I'm playing a better sub rogue, but parse worse.

[wild hornet]

I play sin worse and I parse worse on sin

(I'm trash)

[wild hornet]

But I also feel a majority of the demographic for assa is sitting on low performance like ret and bm

[warm marlin]

parsing on sin when any aoe fight is heavily determined by tank movement

[hollow spear]

That's why I could never parse on Rik with sin

Our tanks refused to move the boss even an inch

[wild hornet]

Rik parsing gets my blood boiling

I can never get a decent log on that fight no matter the spec I play

[vale pine]

subtlety should allow you to burst adds

so unless you get unlucky with barrels should get somewhat decent logs

[wild hornet]

Every time rng isn't on my side

[runic trail]

Then you have me who fucks up the first cooldown window and gets clipped by his slam

[warm marlin]

my last rik kill we never had more than 2 barrels stacked in melee the entire fight and it was fine

rik on sub is so chill comparatively

[wild hornet]

Ours are spread and get nuked by the rest

[vale pine]

unlucky

[wild hornet]

I feel like im in the hunger games

Once in a blue moon I'm on the damage meter

Usually thanks to the 3rd barrel set

Makes me feel like I play this game for the first time

[warm marlin]

it was so nice back when you could evasion it

too bad fun was detected

[wild hornet]

Oh yeah

Why'd they even remove that

[warm marlin]

[short radish]

rogues were too strong

ignoring mechanics

[warm marlin]

rik and cauldron having these cursed killtimes is a bit sad

exactly 3-3:10

[young roost]

How are we feeling about the new tier set?

[chrome palm]

4pc is good but it makes the existing issues with trickster much more apparent

like overcapping escalating blade