subtlety

[tribal blade]

EXACTLY

it's why i keep it on

[runic trail]

Big numbers make brain happy

I am a simple man

[tribal blade]

how do i know i'm smashing when i can't see my numbers

[iron fjord]

My eyes are locked onto details while in cds

[runic trail]

Just reset details before every cooldown window

Then disregard it when shadow dance ends

[tribal blade]

i never look at details mid combat

only after

unless i'm like "why the fuck is everything living so long"

[iron fjord]

Maybe I should make it invisible in combat or smth

Had to play on my macbook once and wanted to reduce any cpu load so I didnt even install details

Was kinda freeing

[haughty mural]

What tells you we are capped at 4.1

[cloud rover]

The Question, how do i re-enable it

Some people really dont know any logic on PCs

[tribal blade]

i would have asked the same question 😉

[cloud rover]

1 = on 0 = Off

[runic trail]

2 = double on which makes the numbers bigger

[cloud rover]

Thats not how Binary works

[runic trail]

2 is double 1

Don't question it

[cloud rover]

You are truely a Mindgoblin ong

[runic trail]

This is the extent of my maths knowledge

Beyond this I am lost

[cloud rover]

Do you mind goblin deez nuts

gottem

[runic trail]

Ye sure

Gottem

Wait

[wind burrow]

Hi all. Have been playing my rogue during re clear, wondering if any one could give me some pointers. Ty
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/qB1g2DdHfFRYxzCA?fight=20&type=summary&source=80

[short radish]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[short radish]

also put it in a thread by doing !log

[wind burrow]

!log

[wind burrow]

ty

[tulip gorge]

I was watching casual yesterday playing sub in m+ and it was surprisingly good

[fleet wharf]

On the topic of sub in M+, for the BTM event, is it even worth trying to make sub work without a shammy?

[vestal escarp]

It's a competitive event

So not much point in not optimizing what you can

[remote shuttle]

Well grab monk war and feral

And u Rock and roll no shaman too

[fleet wharf]

you can't bring shammy to the Break the meta event, they're one of the banned classes

[cloud rover]

Those buffs

are prolly

as good as 1 shaman buff

[vestal escarp]

Enha is good

[remote shuttle]

Ye

[cloud rover]

Like Monk is prolly even wrose than DH

[remote shuttle]

But if no shaman ,at least don't miss the other 3

[cloud rover]

not entirely sure about that

[remote shuttle]

Timed some 16 and a 17 with a good pug monk

[vestal escarp]

Well no

Not even enha is off meta

[remote shuttle]

U can't Pick sham in btm yep

[fleet wharf]

yea, so if it's down to outlaw or sub isn't it better to go with outlaw since they won't suffer as much from missing the shammy buffs?

[vestal escarp]

Little point left to run sub then

[fleet wharf]

no parries! surely that's worht something

[vestal escarp]

Irrelevant in dungeon

[remote shuttle]

Naaaaa

Btm Is for cool ppl

Sub Is cooler than law (Sorry @leaden prairie )

So Just go sub

[lilac stag]

Sub without skyfury is trash gameplay wise.

[tribal blade]

sometimes in dungeons it feels like i'm playing in mud, and i'm getting omega tilted with the rotation

and then i realize there's no shammy in the group

and then i think about alt-f4ing

[vestal escarp]

When i feel like not playing sin i go to KS outlul

Unless it's rookery and theres a shaman it's too ass for me to play sub in keys

Compared to how the other 2 feel

[wild hornet]

Something tells me I'm never getting a 100 parse on mythic

[alpine wraith]

very unlikely yea

[wild hornet]

Purples on prog bosses

At least I had my short lived sprocket glory so I can leave this season in peace if we kill gally that is

[hidden spade]

Anyone got any advice for best way to fit in the full flag window with no downtime on 2nd rookery boss? Always feels like there’s a mechanic during it

[tribal blade]

use cloak to stand in stuff while you're in cds

can't do it for every cd set though

[wild hornet]

I just step in n out

Like jitter in and out if it's puddle, if it's circle aoe edge it till 1s then run out

Usually works, might get fucked by debuff if ur unlucky

[hidden spade]

Ok thanks guys!

[median nacelle]

so sad, but so true D: thats why we need skyfury(xD) buff as rogues

https://tenor.com/view/tom-senya-gif-26024901

i put on clown mask cause it wont happen 😦

[lilac stag]

Should have done that before opening up LFG

[brittle plinth]

It's actually amazing how different it is

[haughty mural]

Haven’t done a key without a sham for quite some time

Cba

[brittle plinth]

I've been very picky on my runs now, I won't even apply if no shaman or if my key i wait for one

Usually a warr too

[vocal wolf]

Maybe that's why I've never had much fun in sub keys, don't think I've played with many shamans at all this season

[swift tinsel]

Imma play shaman when I’m not on my rogue and only invite subtlety rogues, no sin or outlaw shenanigans

[fleet wharf]

you'll be in queue forever

[lilac stag]

if you don’t know you’re missing it, not sure if that will change your level of fun.

it’s pretty easy to see the gameplay change

[swift tinsel]

This is every season lol

[fleet wharf]

just play a healer, instant queues

more pain, but no wait

[swift tinsel]

Not a fan of resto shaman at all

Tried it out, not my jam

[haughty mural]

One of us

[swift tinsel]

Plus enh is fun

[fleet wharf]

agreed. What other melees do you guys find fun?

[haughty mural]

Ww

Sv

[swift tinsel]

Fdk/uhdk are my usual other melee

SV also banger

[fleet wharf]

kinda curious about WW. what's fun about it?

[swift tinsel]

Big dam

[tribal blade]

WW is like rogue without stealth and more flashy animations

[haughty mural]

Yes

[swift tinsel]

Their mastery keeps gameplay decently interesting

[fleet wharf]

is the no repeat buttom minigame fun?

[tribal blade]

WW soothes my need to have infinite movement

[haughty mural]

With conduit even a kinda similar profile then we have

[fleet wharf]

i thought rogue movement skills were pretty good already

[tribal blade]

yeah the WW mastery is cool to play around

it sounds like it would be cancer, but the rotation usually ends up going that way

[swift tinsel]

The way the spec works you don’t really have to think about it too terribly much

[fleet wharf]

but my point of comparison is shadow priest lmao

[tribal blade]

yeah exactly

[swift tinsel]

Like it’s actually super well done

[haughty mural]

Plus ww is also mobile af

[tribal blade]

i haven't played WW in several expacs, maybe i should pick it up again

[haughty mural]

With good ish utility

[tribal blade]

the movement on WW is chef's kiss

i love it

[swift tinsel]

I played a fuckton in Nathria and would do keys on it here and there season 1

[haughty mural]

I was alting a lot of ww this season again

Was fun

Conduit is a banger

[swift tinsel]

Switched between ww and mw a decent amount

[fleet wharf]

maybe I should also give monks a shot

[swift tinsel]

They’re always good fun, even when the tuning isn’t quite there

[haughty mural]

The only thing I dislike is that they made one big movement ability into a dmg button with slicing winds

[swift tinsel]

Oofta yeah

[tribal blade]

yeah that seems horrible

[haughty mural]

That they got haste scaling is also a banger

[haughty mural]

Slicing winds is fun
But I miss flying serpent kick as mobility a lot

[swift tinsel]

Plus you could use it to quickly keep mastery rolling with a double press if you really needed it

[haughty mural]

That wasn’t working for a long time

Since they removed the dmg part of it a long time ago

But yea

[tribal blade]

ROLL

ROLL

ROLL

ROLL

the original dh

[swift tinsel]

It wouldn’t break hit combo as of season one 🤷🏻‍♂️

[haughty mural]

[swift tinsel]

Could be mistaken and am thinking of a diff season

[haughty mural]

Maybe I am mistaken and I didn’t realize it playing my monk this xpac

[swift tinsel]

Bc it doesn’t have any damage component now fs

Unsure if that came with the rework or not

[barren haven]

Hey Fam,

we use Onyx Gems for the Focusing Lens, right?
Or r we going for the Crit on the Blasphemite?

[swift tinsel]

Doesn’t really matter for lens

And the blasphemite is so marginal a gain if you’re using the crit one that it doesn’t really pay to try and fit 3 unique colors

[leaden prairie]

?

[tribal blade]

??

wait the triple

???

that's when you know you REALLY messed up

[barren haven]

okay, i thought we would scale better with onyx because of shadow dmg

[swift tinsel]

Embellishments are very poorly tuned and don’t really need to be geared around

[tribal blade]

my guildies were giving me crap for saying that

apparently on other specs embels are like ~100k worth of difference or something

or more

[keen dome]

The best is the !?!?

'cos they took the time to add the ! in there.

[tribal blade]

yeah the excalmation really adds more aggressiveness

[idle aurora]

Should I backstab until dance runs out? Or do you still mostly fan

[fleet wharf]

you backstab just once for danse stacks, you only fan once to use the rotten to apply FW debuff on enemies

actually, not sure about the fan part

[idle aurora]

But then what in aoe sotuations

Fok?

[fleet wharf]

i thought the question was about aoe. in ST you only backstab once and then the rest of the builders should be shadowstrike

don't use FOK in ST

[idle aurora]

No it was aoe sorry

I never know if I should be shadow striking until I can’t or FoKing

[fleet wharf]

I'll let other ppl clarify on the fan point

[swift tinsel]

if you're in dance you only storm once with 2nd charge of The Rotten

otherwise you Strike

in aoe

[fleet wharf]

woohoo I was correct 🎉

[swift tinsel]

finisher depends on how many targets are present/have Find Weakness debuff

[tribal blade]

imagine if rotten wasn't bugged

and we could storm with the first rotten stack

/cry

[brittle plinth]

Speaking of bugs

Did we ever conclude whether sectech works on first boss rook or not? Is it a game bug or a combat log/details bug

[latent finch]

Its adetails/log bug you do the dmg but its not shown

[hazy breach]

Its showing up as a 6th player doing the damage on logs

So the boss is taking the damage, its just not registrering that its you thats dealing it

[brittle plinth]

kk good to know

no reason to hold sectech then

[haughty mural]

Sometimes you just have to even if you waste a rotten charge imo

[tribal blade]

yeah i do it sometimes

doesn't feel great

but it's gotta be done

[haughty mural]

If I see I will get a refund I have to

Yea same

Feels horrible but it is what it is

[tribal blade]

blizz seriously needs to put some time into sub

for the billionth time

[delicate wind]

Good joke

[swift tinsel]

my copium take after 11.1 ptr is that they're gonna stealth fix bugs now that the trickster 4pc is working and they have nothing else to do for sub for the next month and a half

bc they had more to fix with the undermine tier set than we have atm and still got a half-dozen or so bugs fixed for the spec/hero talents

taking huge huffs rn

[tribal blade]

yeah it's unusual for blizz to fix sub stuff that quickly

so huffing copium warranted right now

[swift tinsel]

there is the possibility of the 2pc being changed and that introducing new issues

but that remains to be seen

[hollow spear]

I'd agree to them removing the 30% reset chance and replacing it with increasing EB stacks to 6

[haughty mural]

Wasn’t RS also stealth fixed without comment ?

[haughty mural]

https://tenor.com/view/why-not-both-why-not-take-both-gif-11478682

[hollow spear]

Because that's not how things work

Cannot just give out stuff for free

[haughty mural]

[hollow spear]

They could throw in fixing our most annoying stuff

[rotund pawn]

if you will have overstacking EB and double coup, where will you get the energy to cast all that stuff outside of cds

[haughty mural]

Goremaw

[hollow spear]

Goremaw

[haughty mural]

[rotund pawn]

ew

[hollow spear]

The two sub braincells met

[haughty mural]

[hollow spear]

Fuu might ban us soon

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/feral-druid-dance-kitty-paw-gif-21236231

[north schooner]

if you say Goremaw too many times realz will materialise before you and swap the positions of Shadow Blades and Goremaw in the tree

[swift tinsel]

if that's what it takes to get an impactful capstone intead of goremaws

actually I wanna look at how many specs have talents that affect their main cooldown(s)

[delicate wind]

Any talents that don’t effect our cds are trash soooo

[swift tinsel]

bc we kinda have shadowcraft indirectly benefitting bc of the interaction with blades

[north schooner]

isn't it brewmaster monk that has builds with 0 capstones trained?

[swift tinsel]

unsure

I know surv had no capstone builds for a while

but I'm not aware of any other specs

[north schooner]

yeah brewmaster has several builds on wowhead with not a single talent in the last row

but their tree is balanced differently than the rogue pattern of 2-pointer talents in the second last row

[jade urchin]

my brain exploded reading goremaw

i 100% forgor it is a thing

[swift tinsel]

we're pretty unique in that we have no direct mention of our big cooldowns (flag+blades) in any other talents in our tree, no other dps spec has that

was a bit of an interesting thought experiment, but sub is also a bit different than the rest bc of dance, sod and sectech and the parts they play and the cdr dance and sectech have

among pure dps specs, when looking at class/spec/hero trees rogue has the lowest talents that mention or modify our main cooldowns when combined across 3 specs

fire mage has 15 that affect combust alone lmao

[swift tinsel]

would be cool funnel if the shadow hits of sectech were first and the third hit did the combined damage of the previous two to a main target

[alpine wraith]

imagine if singular focus worked with sec tech at all

[kind bluff]

How we feel on ptr?

[swift tinsel]

pretty good

if no other changes to the trickster set, we're in good shape

[vale pine]

trickster set is good, deathstalker seems numerical also fine

[lilac stag]

You know what would be cool? If it was just one big hit. They can’t code it the way it is and we’re going to have them try more shenanigans?

[bleak night]

What if it was a million small hits

You summon more clones the more damage you do

[fluid moth]

I haen't had a chance to test out the trickster set... does the 2nd coup still require combo points and energy or do you just press them back-to-back?

[swift tinsel]

yeah, requires both

it basically makes it so you don't consume the 4 stacks of Escalating Blade

[bleak night]

Should cost no energy

[pliant topaz]

why not

[bleak night]

Because I said so

[swift tinsel]

2nd coup costing energy isn't typically an issue

its more noticable when you're trying to build the cp than to spend it outside symbols/dance

[pliant topaz]

thats just the same as building for evis like litearlly identical

[swift tinsel]

ye

[pliant topaz]

it just does more damage, and gives u a lil buff

[swift tinsel]

and sending it with fewer cp isn't as big an issue bc you get the 'adds 5 extra cp' thing

[pliant topaz]

whats cool though is outside of dance usually when you coup the targets always fazed

but it would be funny if by the time u build back up for 2nd coup the target falls out of fazed

now thatd be cinema

[fluid moth]

does coup count as an eviscerate for darkest night?

[swift tinsel]

two sep hero trees

[bleak night]

Uh

That might be hard to test

[fluid moth]

oh yeah im dumb af

nvm

[swift tinsel]

lol all good

[fluid moth]

i still need to finish my first cup of coffee

[restive venture]

Does sub rogue look like it’ll be solid for pushing next season or are y’all still unsure?

[bleak night]

🔮

But it's sub so no

[restive venture]

:(

[swift tinsel]

things could change any day, its only week 2 of ptr

[restive venture]

I wanna learn sub but I don’t wanna learn if I could just do more dps on the other 2 specs I already know

Know what I mean?

[pliant topaz]

not really. people get title as sub if they want to if thats what youre going for

[bleak night]

Just embrace sectec supremacy

[graceful osprey]

Sub will be bottom dps again next season. Blizzard will deem sub as OP and nerf sub to the ground

[bleak night]

Deserved for being doomer

[lucid jackal]

I thought I was in the boomkin channel with this level of victim

[vale pine]

we don't even know how strong sub is, how can we think about nerfs already?

[lucid jackal]

Victim mentality

[swift tinsel]

inc 4pc buff to 2nd coup at 200% damage

[keen dome]

I actually think Sub is going to be real good in S3.

[swift tinsel]

no nerfs we're going to the moon boys

[keen dome]

Damage amp let's go

[bleak night]

Damage amp on dimensius

Sub stonks up

[swift tinsel]

hit a city-sized boss with the Swifty one-shot macro

gonna win me a Razer Naga

[bleak night]

Ngl city sized still feels way too small for a cosmic level entity

But you can only realistically go so big so we take what we can get

[vocal wolf]

How big are they compared to the sword tho

[swift tinsel]

What sword

[bleak night]

I don't think he uses a sword

That's silly

[vocal wolf]

https://tenor.com/view/sargeras-azeroth-sargeras-sword-gorribal-world-of-warcraft-gif-4397790325753773820

[swift tinsel]

thought I read somewhere that this Dimensius is a consolidation of some of the fragments of him

or like a partial manifestation

[bleak night]

Would make sense

[keen dome]

Yeah, I think he's basically being summoned / put back together or something

[bleak night]

Fighting a full power void lord in the first expansion of the set would kind of lower the stakes

Being summoned with the dark heart and we stop it from finishing

[bleak night]

Some shit like that

[keen dome]

Basically fueling him to bring him back to full strength. The Etherals almost killed him the first time.

Although it's what blew their planet up

[graceful osprey]

I’m actually curious how the fight with Dimensius will be. I’m glad it’s not broken into two boss fights like deathwing

[alpine wraith]

if it can be half of what blackhand was with stage transitions

it will be peak

[runic trail]

I saw something from the dungeon journal about having to mount mid fight.

So, we just have to pray its less janky than dawnbreaker

[alpine wraith]

tindral was funny

[runic trail]

Figure I'll go to the drunk social raid to test out sub, the shaman just dropped out.

Please, I want the windfury

I beg of you

[lunar rain]

Any sub rogue streamers testing ptr?

[alpine wraith]

maybe tomorrow

[swift tinsel]

servers were still down

[vale pine]

legion was soo good

[swift tinsel]

and they had to do a character wipe

hm, apparently not all wiped

[vocal wolf]

The only expac I had max rep cuz I enjoyed the content

[vale pine]

it has the highest nostalgia for me

legion for sure had some problems

but it was soo much content and most of it was rly good

[vocal wolf]

I was mega casual back then, but was fun

[swift tinsel]

lol SoD can consume marks at range

seems to be about 20-25yards

[alpine wraith]

i think fondly of mop more than legion

but wod was also fire

nothing beats deleting bosses in 20 secs

for big adrenaline

we will never have that again

[hollow spear]

Code sod as evis for the tier set and make it apply DN

[swift tinsel]

no bugfixes but haven't looked too hard

maybe I farm Matrix coat this weekend

its what, 8-9 hours solo?

[hollow spear]

Matrix coat?

[alpine wraith]

he means darkfuse maybe

it does seem like the matrix ones tho

[bright elk]

Was mop rogue good? I can’t remember how it played back then

[alpine wraith]

it was kinda bad but fun

last raid was very cool tho as sub

even if combat was better

[bright elk]

Oof lol

[swift tinsel]

Yeah the Market Research farm one

[alpine wraith]

and in ToT you had the super ADHD tier set

[bright elk]

Fun is good though might be worth trying

[alpine wraith]

for combat

first raid tier was a disaster tho

[swift tinsel]

wasn't Sha like a forever fight

[alpine wraith]

although it was kinda fine for shade of fear as a light thrower

[swift tinsel]

in Terrace

[alpine wraith]

yea it was around 20 mins or so

maybe they change it a bit

as you got more gear it got shorter

[formal helm]

Wdym

[alpine wraith]

but our first kill was like 25 mins

[alpine wraith]

0.5 GCD in AR

good rogues were doing like triple the dmg of bad ones

[formal helm]

Lmao

That looks fun af tho

[swift tinsel]

wasn't combat just sinister strike, rupture, revealing strike, evisc

or did it still have bandit's guile to play with

[left ledge]

Mop rogue was haste

[swift tinsel]

I don't think I played much if any rogue in mop

lotta holy paladin and demo lock

[alpine wraith]

yea you used revealing before evis

and sinister to build guile

[bright elk]

When did combo points swap to your character instead of the target? That’s my biggest frustration with classic rogue

[alpine wraith]

in legion

think wod had redirect

[swift tinsel]

rip Redirect

[bright elk]

Dang

[alpine wraith]

and mop too?

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[alpine wraith]

i could be wrong

[swift tinsel]

I think MoP with the new trees (nope not this)

[vale pine]

i did not play mop

but did hear a lot of good things about it

[bright elk]

The new trees aren’t separate for different specs right?

In mop

[swift tinsel]

they're class trees

so same across specs

redirect came in cata and left in wod

[left ledge]

Mop was on target but you had redirect

[swift tinsel]

and anticipation came in mop

[vale pine]

legion came with a compete spec rework

[left ledge]

The skill expression across most classes of mop was so good

[alpine wraith]

yea that was a diff time

[left ledge]

Yep GOATED talent

[alpine wraith]

where good people rose above the masses

but we cant have that

[left ledge]

Oh yeah

If you knew your shit back then

You just did dam

[alpine wraith]

so inject all the rng possible everywhere

[left ledge]

Doesn’t matter where your spec was

Everything felt good to some extent

[swift tinsel]

abusing Siege trinkets

[alpine wraith]

yea i even played sub on garrosh

after some rekills and did kinda fine

[swift tinsel]

affliction warlock was actually criminal

bc you could soul swap fully stacked black blood dots

[left ledge]

Yeah affli was just disgusting in mop

[alpine wraith]

tanks min maxing vengeance

[swift tinsel]

oh man

vengeance gamers

[left ledge]

They nerfed veng for mop classic

[swift tinsel]

doing top dps

[alpine wraith]

we had beast tanks in klaxxi getting the scorpion

even managed to kill 2 of them at the same time once

[left ledge]

No more bdk topping on garrosh

[alpine wraith]

top dmg healing was a prot pala

[swift tinsel]

also the intro of more modern disc priest that could easily solo heal raids

[alpine wraith]

holy was better to solo heal

but disc was very good same as holy pala

[left ledge]

Think my fav part of that expansion though was after raid you could actually just go out in the world and do shit that was fun

[bleak night]

i miss my farm

[alpine wraith]

timeless isle

was so good

had such great time going ordos and murdering

[bleak night]

no halfhill in remix was a crime

[swift tinsel]

selfless healer holy paladin could ramp shield the entire raid and just chill

bc old mastery

[alpine wraith]

but also just farming rep

[swift tinsel]

omg I missed tillers

gotta clean your plot

water the plants

pull them weeds

[alpine wraith]

i mostly ignored tillers

[bleak night]

wtf

you got a farm and a dog

what more could you want

[swift tinsel]

I rushed klaxxi for the amber scorpion mount

then spent a lifetime farming for the green fire tome

ended up buying it lol

such an awesome questline and fight

[bleak night]

i just had that shit drop randomly

[left ledge]

Honestly

The one thing I didn’t like

[bleak night]

didnt even know what it was, had to look it up lmao

[left ledge]

Was klaxxi rep

But I guess it’s nothing compared to what I had to do in SL

[swift tinsel]

after bloodsail admiral grinding I'm numb to rep

did that as a youth

shuriken toss as a max level talent

[pliant topaz]

anticipation

100% shadow focus

damn

burst of speed

[alpine wraith]

shuriken toss let you auto while on range was not that bad

mostly a very situational thing but quite welcome when needed

[vale pine]

shadow focus, the probably most nerfed talent in existence

[swift tinsel]

oh yeah didn't it replace Throw

or was that gone by mop

[pliant topaz]

not really. only a 95% nerf

can go lower

i can see the new exciting sub changes for 11.2

SF now 0.5%

we can do this!

MSI in 20 minutes wooo!

[vale pine]

i don't even mean the % of it

just the amount of times it got nerfed

[random cairn]

Hi, is there a way to sim all crafted items and stats combo without raidbots premium?

and not going 1 by 1

[bleak night]

damn i forgot msi was happening

[pliant topaz]

I got tickets for the fnals too

next saturday

[bleak night]

tickets to see na win

for sure this time

[swift tinsel]

do they still do Allstars?

[pliant topaz]

be careful, that amount of copium could be lethal.

[haughty mural]

[pliant topaz]

hopefully AL wins MSI lowkey

[swift tinsel]

and the skill showcases and whatnot

[pliant topaz]

theyre the most fun team to watch rn

[brittle plinth]

when new season starts, what currency do I lose? I assume all my crests, what about undercoin and resonance?

[swift tinsel]

undercoins get reset, I don't think resonant crystals do

I literally never think about crystals

plus I think coffer keys are season-specific so you can't stock up before new delve season

[alpine wraith]

they forgot some coffer keys

from rep

[swift tinsel]

oh yeah

[alpine wraith]

but apart from that yes crests and undercoins go dodo

[keen dome]

correct, crystals don't. They're just for cosmetics and toys. Like resources in DF

You ned over half a million to get everything lmao

[runic trail]

Right, on Rik how do people handle first set of cooldowns? At the moment it feels like I'm stuck between a) send it on pull and get screwed by the first slam, or b) send it post slam and then have it time horrendously with second set of cooldowns .

[strange chasm]

ok sub 4th boss

feels really good

[bleak night]

[swift tinsel]

watching zac and that boss has a ton of target switching, good for sub

plus a good bit of add cleave

[bleak night]

ive already given up on playing assa

[lucid jackal]

Why

[swift tinsel]

bc it isnt sub

[bleak night]

because target swapping on assa is dogshit poopoo terrible fucking horrifically awful to do

and i like sub and assa equally

[lucid jackal]

Valid

[bleak night]

so why wouldnt i play sub on this boss

[lucid jackal]

Oh yeah on the first boss

[runic trail]

thats why I'm learning sub as a flex role

[lucid jackal]

thot u meant in general

[opal basalt]

Does the 4pc work now on ptr or still nah?

[bleak night]

yeah just this one, not whole tier

[runic trail]

Because my raid is fucking horrendous at target swapping and me being a sin one trick is... not helping matters.

[swift tinsel]

yes

assuming you're asking about trickster

[bleak night]

rik forced me to learn sub

and while i hate that boss i did end up liking sub so

we take it i guess

[swift tinsel]

both tier sets appear to be working as intended

[opal basalt]

Yup was, wanted to do one or two ptr keys

[swift tinsel]

yeah as far as I can tell no major bugs with either set

[clever delta]

ngl the cds on this hc boss

are super cool for sub

almost topped on kill

[swift tinsel]

[ripe flame]

what on use trinkets are you guys trying for sub on ptr?

[swift tinsel]

don't do that

[lucid jackal]

Probably a damage trinket, and probably spymaster

[swift tinsel]

I'm leaning towards the one from dh's for passive

[clever delta]

does the dmg tinket do lot?

[swift tinsel]

possibly antenna

prism is like 3.5-4.5% for me in testing

in st

[strange chasm]

im just using HoC

since it scales

[ripe flame]

I wanted to try some of the new stuff

[strange chasm]

2 min spymaster even on sub?

[swift tinsel]

it has 20sec cd

you just use as many stacks as you have at the time you use it

[strange chasm]

oh nether not the other one

[swift tinsel]

spymaster is probably gonna be bis for most

unless they gut it

[runic trail]

Felt like I did good on a fight, grey ilvl log. Feck.

...though I'm missing warrior buff and shaman buff

Which is less than optimal.

[opal basalt]

wdym a trinket from 11.0 is bis

[lost tundra]

Is the first boss in Rookery still bugged with sec tech?

[swift tinsel]

netherprism

[lost tundra]

my dmg sucks ass there....

[swift tinsel]

it's better-spymaster

[opal basalt]

ah lol

what would you go for as 2nd?

thought about the mastery one

with the 15 stacks stuff

[swift tinsel]

eh that one's too rng for my liking

if I wanna play double on-use its Lily from new dungeon

otherwise either the more-damage-per-missing-hp passive or antenna/pacemaker

[lost tundra]

anyone knows? or what to do there? my dmg is so bad on this boss 😦

[latent finch]

The boss gets the dmg but it is not shown in details so your dmg in details is lower

[opal basalt]

this one you mean?

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[opal basalt]

i never in my life played double on use

probably gonna macro lily into blades

and use the prism like i'd use stix trinket rn?

because thats the one with the shorter cd

[swift tinsel]

if you want

just make sure you use prism and not lily if you're going to let it stack for 3min flag

[opal basalt]

i mean if i drop it from the first run of the dungeon i do

why not use it

[swift tinsel]

and use prism at 30sec

so that it hits 15 stacks a few sec before your 3min flag

if thats what you're going for

[opal basalt]

clever

[swift tinsel]

otherwise just use it on cd with flag/blades

bc it gives good stats even when not max stacked

and run a passive with it

[opal basalt]

i'm still bloody new to sub rogue, so i'd really trust your judgment there

[swift tinsel]

I'd play around on ptr, that's what I've been doing

double on use isn't something everyone enjoys

but if you want to play with both and have 55k agi for your 3min flag, use lily on pull, prism at 30sec, lily for 1.5min flag and prism for 3min flag

plus prism does stack-agnostic damage so you still get value while you let it stack

[runic trail]

The hunt for windfury continues, one day I will be in a raid with a shaman.

One god-damn day

[opal basalt]

interesting, evisc actually overtaking sectech

4min dummy

but who would've guessed with a 4pc around Coup

[left ledge]

Remove goremaw

Give me EoN instead of goremaw

[midnight ledge]

Is our tier set fixed on ptr yet?

[swift tinsel]

easiest layup ever

[swift tinsel]

yes

[midnight ledge]

Thank you

[serene notch]

Are we suppose to send it on pull for big mom? I feel like anytime I hold the adds die too slowly.

[left ledge]

https://tenor.com/view/one-piece-laugh-big-mom-charlotte-linlin-mamamama-yonko-gif-15743547

[lucid jackal]

I wonder how sub is gonna play ideally

Double coup feels crazy

but idk how to dance properly

[left ledge]

Technically you want cds for the damage amp, but it’s very comp dependent, I’d just send a dance or two to kill adds then farm them back for cds in amp phase

If the adds don’t die in time you should just send on pull

It’s hard to really give a definitive answer if you’re pugging

[fluid moth]

Double coup will make things way easier because of the CDR help

[maiden oar]

is it ideal to farm shadowcraft to not waste escalating blades with new tier or do you just overcap and not care

[left ledge]

Better to not wipe than to optimize

[warm marlin]

hard to tell yet with no robot

[maiden oar]

[pliant topaz]

everything about how we play with new tier is speculation. we will know things more once tiers been implemented in sims

[maiden oar]

ok wasnt sure if robot or no robot ty

[left ledge]

I speculate we are going to end up not giving a fuck about the stacks outside of niche conditions

I will unironically choose to build with shuriken toss over goremaw

[warm marlin]

if u want my opinion from hitting dummies for 5 straight hours on ptr, holding coup for 10s or so for dance and holding it for 20s for flag seemed good

[swift tinsel]

so far its been feeling better to pool them into dance vs trying to get 2x between each flag

[pliant topaz]

Theres a PR for trickster tier so far

ill probably send an update if it gets accepted / we do bug testing

[warm marlin]

holy moly

[swift tinsel]

would be nice to know what Realz is thinking about 2pc change after saying its being 'judged'

[pliant topaz]

its just stupid and aids

specially for outlaw

[left ledge]

Idk but the best change he can make is that we get to stack UB over 4

[jaunty heath]

wheres our cool gear

[left ledge]

Having coup just consume 4 as we can stack higher will never happen though

Feel like that’s high hopes

[warm marlin]

yeah more than 4 escalating stacks is just very nice for outlaw and sub

[swift tinsel]

EB Anticipation Stacks

[left ledge]

We will probably just have it nerfed so it’s not as big of a problem

That’s how Blizz likes to roll

[strange chasm]

seems like i have so much cdr

[left ledge]

Maybe we get lucky enough and they make it auto proc which isn’t ideal but is still better I guess

[swift tinsel]

just wait they're also gonna up the Deepening cdr to 0.7

ehehe

[left ledge]

Imma be that guy though and say

I hope this is very temporary for sub

I heavily dislike leaning more into cdr

Especially on something that has as much variance as coup

[pliant topaz]

they just seem to give tier that gives a lot of resources for last tier (same as season 3 df)

and then itll go away

dont worry

[warm marlin]

what felt best was triple dancing full cds if the third dance came up right as it was ending, otherwise sending one big dance with 2x coup into sectec

[pliant topaz]

Push was right the whole time regarding resource bloat for sub

[warm marlin]

mostly like live, but you can send the third dance after cds twice as often as normal it seems

[left ledge]

Yeah I mean sub has fake resources

I don’t think I ever actually look at my energy

[pliant topaz]

yea

both cp and energy are fake resources

hence why sub aoe feels so bad so often

in season 1 the cdr was so strong it made subs aoe good

season 1 df

[left ledge]

Well in season 1

With or without dance

You spin like a helicopter

[pliant topaz]

yeah generator nerfs were alos big

but regardless, in season 1 u had a resource u could get more of in aoe

now u have none

[left ledge]

Yeah I don’t mind the nerfs to storm and bp but I do mind that we got given nothing for aoe

We have… blade flurry…

[pliant topaz]

so u dont get anythign in aoe but looking at other specs like sin, they get energy and cps (both valuable resources for them)

we get nothing

[left ledge]

You get storm munching double stacks of things like rotten

[pliant topaz]

yeah and u get to waste all your sht stacks

im down

we lose resources in aoe

we are still unique then!

only spec to lose from more targets

[left ledge]

Just ST everything

Can’t believe we had more build variety in shadowlands

Than now

That’s just such a sad reality

[pliant topaz]

season 1 df too

even season 2

u had rotten / dust / sepsis aids

flag

db

[left ledge]

Our rework is just incomplete

[pliant topaz]

tfd was actually meaningful

[left ledge]

That’s all

[pliant topaz]

like raz u would drop tfd for fw on storm or w/e

it was cool

it was funny having to talent into bp though

LMFAO

[left ledge]

I feel like if they actually gave us 2 or 3 strong aoe talents

That we had to sacrifice some st for

It’d be fine

[pliant topaz]

eh as realz said it basically subs the worst case scenario

your aoe rotation is garbage

but not garbage enough to make them want to invest time into fixing

so youre gonna be stuck

here

[small juniper]

am i the only one who thinks sub feels awful and isnt fun cus it also does piss low damage

[pliant topaz]

i think single target was kinda fun - before i quit. not nearly as fun as when I was palying around with dust but servicable

aoe was cock and ball torture

[chrome palm]

did they fix coup delayed shadowcraft on ptr

[swift tinsel]

that's still pretty true

on both front

[pliant topaz]

but according to the man this is what happened to subs aoe

[swift tinsel]

nope

[pliant topaz]

which is fair enough

[swift tinsel]

still there and still annoying af

[pliant topaz]

but also unlucky

[small juniper]

idk how it can be so difficult to do something about sub

[warm marlin]

"I don't know if or when I ever will..."

[small juniper]

theres so many previous versions of sub

[swift tinsel]

at least as of yesterday

[small juniper]

that were amazing

and we just have this dog shit

[swift tinsel]

yeah that stings a bit

[pliant topaz]

they dont wanna revert to previous iterations but ont have time/creativity to create good versions

so its stuck here

[small juniper]

massive xd

[left ledge]

Like I mentioned

Sub just isn’t popular enough

[pliant topaz]

idk i its popularity dude

surv got more work done for it

feral got stuff

[left ledge]

Why wouldn’t they have enough time exactly

Lmao

[swift tinsel]

dh rework

[small juniper]

it isnt popular because its hard to make it feel rewarding unless u wanna sit and speculate timers every fight bla bla bla

[left ledge]

They’re not working on a different game

[swift tinsel]

sin getting all the attention for rogue

[left ledge]

They just have priorities

[pliant topaz]

u know why though.

[left ledge]

Because sub isn’t a priority

Other specs do not get left like this

[pliant topaz]

no because the time that was given to rogue in general was lost due to very very very unfortunate personal events that you were there when they happened

[left ledge]

Sure realz had time off etc but he’s not a one man army

[small juniper]

last time sub was remotely interesting was for 1 week late antorus farm

[pliant topaz]

then poor realz had to work on sub and sin and outlaw and dh

[small juniper]

when some1 cooked up a weird rotten sepsis build

[pliant topaz]

in half the time

[left ledge]

He wasn’t alone in working on them

[pliant topaz]

i think he was majority of it

[left ledge]

I’m not saying realz didn’t give it priority

[pliant topaz]

like most of it

[left ledge]

I’m calling out Blizz

[pliant topaz]

sin turned out great because whispyr

he had a lot of influence

[left ledge]

They could’ve given him more time

[pliant topaz]

stealthi tried to help for sub, but realz was jut too confused

by the community requests

[small juniper]

dfa dfa dfa dfa dfa

[pliant topaz]

thats not how companies work dude

[left ledge]

Yeah because sub has like 5 players

[left ledge]

I can assure you a sub rework isn’t on the shareholders scheduling

[vale pine]

I mean, the result is still the same

some specs are just under developed

and subtlety is one of them

[alpine wraith]

imagine calling me someone smh raz

[vale pine]

its also not exclusive to rogue, other classes will have the same problem

[alpine wraith]

but it was funny

we found the other talents were just applying twice

[small juniper]

couldnt remember who it was sry

[vale pine]

the entire idea of the talent trees introduced a lot of additional work

[alpine wraith]

so it was whatever in the end

[left ledge]

Ofc, however it is quite emphasized with rogue, I don’t think any other class suffered as much with talents

Actually I know they didn’t

[alpine wraith]

think other classes also got krangled talent trees

but ours is a bit more disingenous

[left ledge]

Early in df sure

Most got fixed

[alpine wraith]

in that they just left it there

[vale pine]

The problem with rogue is just the general small development team

basically there is not enough people to do ambitiouse projects

[left ledge]

Yes and why is that

[vale pine]

and rogue still suffers from design decisions which where made decades ago

[swift tinsel]

it's kinda whats happening to dk atm

[small juniper]

if only there was a discord full of extreme nerds willing to help out

sadly we arent so lucky

[vale pine]

https://tenor.com/view/money-gif-11341170073272671015

[swift tinsel]

with frost getting all the shiny new toys and unholy being a bit scuffed

[left ledge]

Yes but then you have to apply this to all the classes no?

How come classes like mage get heavy iterations

[idle aurora]

Ugh every rogue spec feels like it’s going to be awkward to play with new sets 😦

[swift tinsel]

we're lucky that trickster isn't that awkward

ds sucks tho

[vale pine]

because of popularity

we discussed it the other day

[left ledge]

Okay but that’s exactly what I’m saying

[vale pine]

development is not objective

[left ledge]

Is it not

[vale pine]

its even between rogue specs

assassiantion has seen far more time spend on it than subtlety

and you see the results this xpac

[left ledge]

I have mentioned every time this was brought up

That it’s due to rogue being the least played class

[small juniper]

thing is, if u arent gonna spend any time working on a spec at least make sure its somewhat competitive

[left ledge]

And it doesn’t help that sub is probably the least popular too

[small juniper]

sub is fucking awful rn

[vale pine]

this does not mean subtlety plays bad, but it suffers from the consequences of not taking time to iterate on the bad talents

[small juniper]

just another aura buff or something man

[swift tinsel]

we just got an aura buff

[pliant topaz]

I dont think its popularity. Sin was easier to fix. its problems were worse, and more clearly defined. the solutions were more obvious, community was more or so unanimous on the solutions

sub was a shit show

[swift tinsel]

albeit a bit late in the season

[small juniper]

ye and its still awful

5% when youre below aug

isnt rly much

[pliant topaz]

of niche problems, vastly differet voices, etc

[left ledge]

Oh I know

Like I said

[alpine wraith]

sub is still very divided

[left ledge]

No fucking idea why goremaw was wanted

[left ledge]

I argued against it back then too

[frail skiff]

is this good for sub rogue

[left ledge]

Literally what in the fuck made people want goremaw

[alpine wraith]

maybe only thing everyone can agree is that we dont like super rng everywhere and talent trees having so much useless ones

[left ledge]

At least we saved PV only for it to become useless

[small juniper]

prob just cus every other class/spec got artifact ability

[swift tinsel]

idk if it was people wanting it or just reaching into the grab bag of old legendaries/artifacts/conduits

[alpine wraith]

i wanted goremaw but not 3x less dmg than then goremaw

[small juniper]

so sub had to get it too

[runic trail]

Its good just for the visual of sending kobolds at your enemies. Numerically? Not as good.

But S tier in my heart.

[left ledge]

[alpine wraith]

like they made it do 3 times less dmg

??¿¿

[left ledge]

Unlucky

[vale pine]

Just my opinion, the problem space is not that diffrent

[frail skiff]

what other trinket do i want besides house of cards

[alpine wraith]

same as sepsis

like why

[vale pine]

and solutions are similarly simple

[alpine wraith]

because fuck you

[left ledge]

Even if it did 5x the damage it’s such a ??? Capstone

[small juniper]

goremaws is just weird man

[alpine wraith]

or maybe just ran out of time

[small juniper]

it doesnt do anything for our burst

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/amen-anchorman-will-ferrell-gif-10865461

[small juniper]

so its just useless

[alpine wraith]

rn it does but it is very idk

more of a problem of how trickster works

[left ledge]

Like might as well replace goremaw with “every 1 min your strike does 10x damage”

[alpine wraith]

on ptr

[left ledge]

[runic trail]

The best result is to sim trinkets you have, but check the guide for a list of trinkets to have a look out for! https://www.wowhead.com/guide/classes/rogue/subtlety/bis-gear

[frail skiff]

cant open wowhead

[lilac stag]

Where’s Guy to argue how glorious sub and rogue is.

[vale pine]

tl;dr: Get house of cards and fill your 2nd slot with whatever sims highest

[swift tinsel]

this is normally about the point he pops into the convo lol

[alpine wraith]

i mean guy is not wrong in that sub has the highest consistent burst but know what else it has

[frail skiff]

iv these

[alpine wraith]

kezan is only good on long fights

[left ledge]

I can answer this

It has 0 talent variety

[alpine wraith]

it has cool ways to suicide

too

[small juniper]

kezan sims within margin of error for me on 5 min

[swift tinsel]

-1 from coup charge

[alpine wraith]

or to lose damage randomly

[runic trail]

Send a sim! Also be careful of Kezan, it needs longer fights or in M+, a coordinated group maximising combat uptime.

[small juniper]

compared to pacemaker

[left ledge]

Can’t wait for the coup gaps in openers

[alpine wraith]

only 1 boss lasts 5 mins now sadly XD

and that will change in 2 weeks

[small juniper]

ye bit rough

nah aint no way gallywix goes below 5

[lilac stag]

I’m off to teach doggos. I’ll need a recap.

[alpine wraith]

it is very close already sub 6 mins kills

[small juniper]

wtf

[alpine wraith]

problems is where you can get extra dmg mainly or lose healers

[small juniper]

i guess if u dont boost

not so fortunate

[alpine wraith]

dont expect any guild to go tryhard for it tho

[strange chasm]

ok the ds sub set

cranks

😦

[small juniper]

enjoy it for mythic 0 week

100p nerfed before anything relevant

[alpine wraith]

likely it is quite powerful deathstalker has lots of dmg from its talents

[small juniper]

if sub is good

[strange chasm]

yeah its REALLY good

[swift tinsel]

if they don't fix mark bug I will never touch it on retail

[alpine wraith]

mark already hits super hard

30% more is even crazier

[left ledge]

Yeah but I don’t think it will outdo double coup will it

[alpine wraith]

you can fix mark bug with SoD now with tier kinda

[strange chasm]

it does

[alpine wraith]

but i dont look forward to it

[strange chasm]

more damage than the double coup set from testing so far

[swift tinsel]

yeah sod is the only way to consume marks with dn up now

[pliant topaz]

im not remotely surprised

[swift tinsel]

and you can do it at 25yards away lol

[alpine wraith]

more like you can make sure you dont use last finisher as sec tech

before getting DN

[vale pine]

push rly loved it for whatever reason, i never rly understood the appeal

[alpine wraith]

it did a lot of dmg

[small juniper]

in legion it was nice

[alpine wraith]

but then they implemented it

[small juniper]

and for a bit in df m+

[alpine wraith]

and does 3 times less dmg

because math is hard

[pliant topaz]

+20% sod uptime. + like 20% ish more DN casts

[pliant topaz]

very well might

[alpine wraith]

30% stronger hunt them down

and mark

XD

[swift tinsel]

yeah its possible which is annoying lol

[alpine wraith]

also guess what momentum of despair

BRRRR inc bp on st

[pliant topaz]

dont forget aoe

[swift tinsel]

had a 5mil Fatal crit

[pliant topaz]

more rupture bleed thingy

more sod uptime

more singular focus

more evrything

but yea

[alpine wraith]

yea it is kinda just send the big numbers

and see what happens

when nothing you do matters

[small juniper]

if they replaced goremaws with dfa and made dfa do aoe and big secret tech when u land + 2 second full immunity that would be great

[swift tinsel]

think I've had an 18mil envenom so far on ptr as ds

[alpine wraith]

goremaw could just flurry and it would be quite nice on AoE to get more DM too

[swift tinsel]

bet sub can beat it

[small juniper]

u got 18 mil as assa?

[alpine wraith]

you can crit like 7m with goremaw with some set up

yea remember they are not cucked by split shit

[small juniper]

idk whats high but i get 22+ mil regularly already

[bleak night]

if both sub and assa end up playing deathstalker next tier i might just quit

and go play ret

[swift tinsel]

no buffs no consumes

[bleak night]

dont do that to me

[swift tinsel]

rat ptr setup

[runic trail]

I went to sub because deathstalker ain't for me.

[alpine wraith]

depends on how they treat trickster tier

[runic trail]

And now this

[alpine wraith]

the 2p is very

[proper fulcrum]

I miss playing DS on Sub ill say it

[alpine wraith]

not good mechanically like the dmg might be there

[left ledge]

The thing is

[proper fulcrum]

I liked bouncing between two hero talents

Now we just use one perm

[left ledge]

Deathstalker sucks ass in raid

[proper fulcrum]

Hero talents are dead as fuck

Rework game

[left ledge]

Unless it’s pure ST

The second mobs are introduced

[swift tinsel]

the 30% ub damage feels nice

[alpine wraith]

in theory DS has funnel but kek

[left ledge]

That thing eats shit

[proper fulcrum]

Ya, 1st tier was good, Doing like DS on things like Rash/Sikran, trickster on others

[swift tinsel]

but the reset chance can be a bit troll

[small juniper]

ds on broodtwister was nice

[alpine wraith]

yea like the 2 set is strong numerically but it messes up coup things and 4p does not help

[runic trail]

Opposite to sin then. FB is technically better ST but the second there's an add, it jumps off of a cliff.

[left ledge]

Sin has caustic

[swift tinsel]

yeah sometimes you get trolled by stacks which can happen on live but now its 30% more lol

[left ledge]

Sub can’t do low target cleave without trickster

It literally can’t

[swift tinsel]

isn't BP a gain over evisc at 2 targets with ds

[strange chasm]

trickster is really good on 4th boss

[swift tinsel]

bc it got tuned to the moon

[strange chasm]

but ds slams man

[left ledge]

Yeah?

The damage is dogshit though

[pliant topaz]

idk man u are one bp buff away from 2 target bp > trickster cleave

[left ledge]

[swift tinsel]

isn't it like

85% of an evisc in st for ds

[vale pine]

I would place both tier sets fairly close in power level

but we will know soon i hope

[pliant topaz]

yea

[vale pine]

its just DS just feels bad to play

[left ledge]

Yes it’s 85% of a DS evis

[alpine wraith]

with buffed momentum from 2 set

might overtake at least to get 1 DM stack

[left ledge]

But DS isn’t as versatile as trickster

You can do quite some damage in cleave without just dance in trickster

In very short bursts

[small juniper]

can u explain why ds feels bad to play i never got it

on single target its good or

[alpine wraith]

double coup sec tech without cds can do quite dmg for what it is

DS has problems with how mark goes and how strong it is having it

[left ledge]

It still kinda annoying in ST, the problem is mainly the target locking and the way the mark works

[alpine wraith]

basically if you mess up and pop mark and are about to sec tech your strike wont put mark

[left ledge]

You HAVE to consume DN (unless you sod with new tier)

[alpine wraith]

so you lose hunt them down and mark dmg etc

also outside dances you need to be careful when popping DN

[swift tinsel]

if they fix the bug most of my ST issues with ds go away