goremaw hits rn with full shit for like 6 to 7m
#subtlety
swift tinsel
I would think
haughty mural
Or bricked because goremaw
swift tinsel
fair
tooltips be lyin'
how annoying is it to pv rotten goremaws
or do you just ignore and if it lines up its cool
and use more for EB insurance
sorry been having to duck in and out of the prev conversation
haughty mural
In ryldds Screenshot there are 5 backstabs to 6 sstrikes
Seems annoying
In what seems to be a 3 dance timeline
Or?
warm marlin
how annoying is it to pv rotten goremaws
mildly testing this rn
seems annoying
maybe there's a world you line it up with the cb sectec dance between flags
you can feasibly prep the PV
swift tinsel
I'll have to give it a shot after work
I've legitimately not looked into pv or goremaws yet so its uncharted territory for me lol
warm marlin
an arcane mage style mini burst of pv prep up to full cp -> dance symbols coup goremaw coup strike cb sectec
warm marlin
seems infinite
swift tinsel
hmm
swift tinsel
shenanigans intensify
warm marlin
swift tinsel
"I'm gonna Pre"
vale pine
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
swift tinsel
disorienting strikes going into opener with new tier set makes it notably better
potentially with pv now if its able to be prepped
stuff to look into
alpine wraith
pv does reset on boss pull
steel zinc
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
warm marlin
PV is very weird to abuse in this manner
backstab adding stacks and being able to consume, shadowstrike/goremaw only being able to consume
especially since we are backstabbing first global of dance
you can force goremaw to do some actually decent damage (not really for 2 capstone investment of rotten/goremaw) but then you aren't really getting the trickster related benefit
swift tinsel
yeah the more I've been thinking about it the more it feels like wasted bandwidth to use it for anything besides enabling coups/avoiding stack waste
warm marlin
full maxing it on dummies its coming out to like 3% damage
playing exclusively for the coup thing it was like 0.5%
swift tinsel
cursed timeline
warm marlin
theres obviously also some benefit to shadowstrike that rotten is giving but i dont think its worth more than finality
swift tinsel
yeah esp in the off chance they fix coup finality interactions
vale pine
disorienting strikes going into opener with new tier set makes it notably better
ohh, i see
did not thing of that
swift tinsel
that plus running tfd
potent combo for opening burst
the Finality-less Coup
no buff going in, no buff showing up, no buff going out
managed a FW-less coup that looks like it had the buff up for each
hmge
left ledge
goremaw is a sin
haughty mural
left ledge
i still am in absolute disbelief and shock that ANYONE wanted that shit back in the game when we had the rework discussion thread
if we dont get shuriken combo back like 10x stronger than it was im gonna tweak
swift tinsel
all it took was a niche tier set to make it work
lilac stag
https://tenor.com/view/scared-tweek-tweak-south-park-s6e11-child-abduction-is-not-funny-gif-22002721
lilac stag
all it took was a niche tier set to make it work
You’re going to need to define “make it work” in this context. 
swift tinsel
I don't want to give it any legitimacy please don't make me lol
we just happen to have a talent in our tree that's tuned better than storm/toss that avoids wasting blade stacks and gens 3 cp
swift tinsel
it kinda perfectly enables a specific scenario with the new set lol
and that specificity might broaden to other parts of the rotation
left ledge
i know that it might seem like pressing goremaw to save a stack is doing something
but there is no world in which that becomes optimal considering how much it costs to take goremaw
left ledge
maybe if it actually did any damage or idk didnt fix a non-problem (energy wise)
swift tinsel
which makes it more annoying that its feasible lmao
bleak night
goremaw haters in shambles
bleak night
new bis is here
left ledge
i would rather press shuriken storm
lilac stag
lilac stag
gloombladie doesn’t want to press goremawmaw. fascinating.
bleak night
left ledge
this is a matter of principles
left ledge
i refuse to give in to abhorent talent design as is displayed with "goremaw"
i will not contribute to the number
alpine wraith
well if only storm didnt suck so much
left ledge
that talent is dogshit and needs to be removed or reworked
left ledge
if only our spec was in any way polished
lilac stag
that’s the talent in the sub tree you’re taking a stand on. 
alpine wraith
many diff solutions but guess what
left ledge
and not half abandoned
left ledge
that’s the talent in the sub tree you’re taking a stand on. <:OMEGAKEKW:82905110...
that and tornado
alpine wraith
you have plenty of garbage in the middle of the tree
left ledge
tornado needs a full rework
lilac stag
swift tinsel
Lol they remove the EB block from the tierset and goremaws hype disappears
swift tinsel
almost overnight
left ledge
i dont think the middle is really that useless
i think we just have random shit scattered throughout
lilac stag
swift tinsel
by middle do you mean 50% of the tree
left ledge
left going down until swift death is essentially completely worthless
lilac stag
copium going hard rn fr
left ledge
thats not really middle
swift tinsel
speed shroud useful
free cheap shot not so much 95% of the time
night terror node is doodoo
left ledge
i mean if we look at the actual middle of the talent tree im looking at like this
which actually has quite a few good talents
orchid sand
does sub tier work on ptr or whats the current situation?
swift tinsel
imp sht, warning signs, master of shadows, wm, nado
left ledge
ok warning signs is
swift tinsel
poop soup
swift tinsel
the screenshot armin shared yesterday gave it context but that was never realized with the rest of the tree/spec rework
just an abanonded remant
left ledge
i know what the context was
but yes
it was abandoned
just like tornado
tornado was intentionally made to not work with cds so we wouldnt have to press it in ST
but then just got left like that
swift tinsel
well yeah they had to finish the banger dh rework
swift tinsel
left ledge
they just slapped goremaw in there during the rework
swift tinsel
^ sub rework
left ledge
for some fucking reason
swift tinsel
with flurry
left ledge
like i think new blades is obviously a HUGE upgrade over old blades
i enjoy the burstier profile
but fuck dude
left ledge
the spec essentially cant function without shadowcraft, and the rest of our capstones are extremely underwhelming basic passive effects
and then you have a 45 sec cd shadowstrike
that isnt whitelisted to proc EB
or UB
whatever the fuck you wanna call it
500 diff names in one hero talent
alpine wraith
goremaw hits quite harder than strike but not as much as its cd would make you think
sadly it does 3 times less dmg than the original
unluck
although it would also be a problem if you could have a random builder do 20m+ crits
every 45 secs XD
wish it could flurry too
frail skiff
what weapons i get for sub rogue
alpine wraith
2 daggers
ashen dock
Int daggers like I did in shadowlands
frail skiff
i have 3 puzzle coins
puzzling cartel chip
i get either trinket
to replace this pvp one
or
daggers
idk
alpine wraith
it is better to craft one
frail skiff
algari?
alpine wraith
you can farm gilded crests quite easily
and get a 681 dagger
costs 90 gilded crests to craft
alpine wraith
it is called everforged stabber
to get crests you can do many things like hc raid last bosses drop them
or weekly things like lvl 11 delves
or farm m+ at 7 and above
alpine wraith
you can also craft a 658 from finishing the story
frail skiff
i finished story
alpine wraith
do the full campaign and after killing gallywix you get an enchanted crest to craft a 658
frail skiff
what to use my 3 puzzling chips on now?
alpine wraith
i would save them to use on other things seeing you already have house of cards
frail skiff
auigt
vivid trail
new to rogue how is subtlety doing compared to assa and outlaw?
lilac stag
they’re all mediocre at the moment.
Play what you enjoy.
lilac stag
Sub is the most neglected by the devs of the 3 on an at present neglected class.
pliant topaz
we just happen to have a talent in our tree that's tuned better than storm/toss ...
Until sims come in I really really really really doubt its better to use goremaw/ other generators to not waste 1 single EB stacks when 2 pc is giving u + 30% procs
like i cannot stress how much I dont think this is worth
lilac stag
show me numbers with correct apl
until then don’t be shitting on goremaws.
Goremaws time is now
vale pine
goremaws does not fit well
like sure, you can giga buff its damage and it would suddenly see play
pliant topaz
i mean if we look at the actual middle of the talent tree im looking at like thi...
I kinda disagree with this btw. Most of the talents in here are either mandatory or just compeltly worthless (both gameplay feeling wise and numerically) but thats most of the tree. things are either basically mandatory / tuned to the moon / gameplay defining/ or just xd
vale pine
but it already got buffed once and the design just does not work well
pliant topaz
theyre thinking of using goremaw outside of dance so they dont waste 1 stack of escalating blade since they have double coup @vale pine
which is like xd idk
swift tinsel
but it already got buffed once and the design just does not work well
it's purely in the context of the s3 set
def not on its own merits
lilac stag
remember tier was meant to change gameplay once upon a time.
entering the Goremaw tier
pliant topaz
the goremaw propaganda is craaaaay ngl
lilac stag
keen dome
I'm scared of the goremaw reality
swift tinsel
I'm all for not using goremaws lol I just don't think it should be counted out from a gameplay perspective quite yet
pliant topaz
we will test it
lilac stag
I'm scared of the goremaw reality
Be very afraid. You’re getting Goremaw sub rogue and kyveza DH
vale pine
tbh i am all for experimentation
keen dome
I, a man with no theory to speak of, believe it should be counted out from a gameplay perspective because I don't like Goremaws. My hypothesis is: Goremaw bad. My evidence is: goremaw bad.
vale pine
if you have crazy ideas, we can test them once tier set is implemented
keen dome
I am extremely curious what you come up with via testing though.
runic trail
I, a man with no theory to speak of, believe it should be counted out from a gam...
We don't need theory, we need VIBES
pliant topaz
I am extremely curious what you come up with via testing though.
I really dont think theres gonna be much change to the current gameplay. probably u get one more dance over 5 minutes
dances / cds a bit burstier
keen dome
Ye, I think so.
pliant topaz
biggest thing i see is more naked sectechs
swift tinsel
yeah I've had a few more naked sectechs per 5mins
keen dome
Sorry, extra CDR due to couping more.
swift tinsel
nothing crazy
pliant topaz
Sorry, extra CDR due to couping more.
yea
if u sectech -> coup -> coup every dance, u might get 1 extra free sectech before every blades set
swift tinsel
I think 2-3?
pliant topaz
since more escalating kinda pushes dance cadences forward
lilac stag
and goremaws pushes it further
pliant topaz
but idk i havent tested abnything on ptr just kinda common sensing it for now until koji finishes the implementation
pliant topaz
and goremaws pushes it further
litearlly doesnt push anything but im down
swift tinsel
a little bit, you're still kinda throttled if you try to force dances even with the extra cdr
swift tinsel
ryldd and I both noticed things kinda fall apart around the 4:30 flag if you're pushing dances vs pooling for flags
keen dome
I'm still hoping for consistent double dances between cooldowns 'cos that just helps the 'flow' better but more SecTecs is cool
swift tinsel
even with skyfury it's kinda sketch to try for double dances between all flags
lilac stag
I don’t think we see more sectech tbh
lilac stag
in short fights yes
keen dome
ryldd and I both noticed things kinda fall apart around the 4:30 flag if you're ...
alright so what I'm getting is we need 4:00 or less killtimes
left ledge
I kinda disagree with this btw. Most of the talents in here are either mandatory...
I mean sure in terms of how interesting they are, but I wouldn’t say they’re useless or dead talents
A lot of them are necessary for the core of the spec
They are mostly passive and are just there to force you to pick them
But that’s going to happen with talent systems like this
That’s why we need interesting capstones or certain important nodes that make a difference
lilac stag
But that’s going to happen with talent systems like this
assa tree would disagree
left ledge
Why would it disagree
It’s the same thing just has more aoe focused and more ST focused talents
lilac stag
you not forced into anything. You can literally move stuff around to adjust how you want it, especially in m+
left ledge
Sub unfortunately just doesn’t have those
You are forced into certain talents to meet certain content requirements
You play caustic in m+
You’re not avoiding that
pliant topaz
the thing is there are no real talents there. either you have to take it, or youre trolling
its not an aoe st choice
left ledge
Yeah
I’m aware
I agree in that regard
But I wouldn’t say they’re just completely useless
Some of them should just be baseline
But something like the first dance isn’t actually that bad (minus the bugs)
pliant topaz
like sub u kinda take all your talents, then youre left with like 3 talent points, and youre like okay where do i put these? and the chocies are all soooo bad, that for ex in s1 we took RS
in single target
left ledge
Yeah I agree
pliant topaz
non of them changed gameplay or did damage. thats kinda what my point was
lilac stag
So I’m forced into 1 talent as assa.
pliant topaz
but its w/e tophalf has so many non sense xd filler talents
left ledge
By good talents I meant they’re high impact on your damage or rotation
lilac stag
sub. Do I play rotten? Do I play finality?
left ledge
But something like Nado is almost a must not take
vale pine
Talents having use in both st and aoe is a pro too
left ledge
Yeah you take those
pliant topaz
every single spec in the game
left ledge
Or it’s gg
pliant topaz
would have these at the very top
vale pine
it means subtlety should be more versatile
pliant topaz
litearlly forced to take
every single spec in the game
except sub
imagine not taking those, u litearlly cannot press buttons
vale pine
e.g. it should be in m+ the go to spec for this reason
left ledge
Talents having use in both st and aoe is a pro too
I agree but the thing is
We don’t have aoe talents really
It’s mainly ST
pliant topaz
we just dont have any thought put into our aoe
vale pine
the entire talent system is such a fiasco
vale pine
that the dev team is completely overwhelmend and its near impossible to make sound decisions
pliant topaz
that the dev team is completely overwhelmend and its near impossible to make sou...
lowkey i never got this
left ledge
But it’s not good
pliant topaz
overwhelmed with what man
left ledge
They’re prob understaffed for this kinda stuff
pliant topaz
every 4-5 months they come out like ah yes heres 3 lines of changes we did
swift tinsel
all the other reworks they're doing?
pliant topaz
very busy
pliant topaz
but theyre not though
swift tinsel
some for the same specs
pliant topaz
patch goes live
things are fine
if u start from there
youre not rebalancing every week
wtf are you doing with your time then
like if theres 5 dudes whos job is to work on classes, like wtf do u do for 5 months when youre not actively balancing
left ledge
I think sub is just very low priority because it just isn’t a popular spec. Rogue is the least played class and sub isn’t exactly the leading spec in popularity
pliant topaz
thats a theory sure is it true though? who knows its jsut speculation
regardless doesnt matter
youre a paying customer
should recieve equal attention
if not
well fuck them
left ledge
I’m aware but that’s unfortunately the reality of a business they just have different priorities
alpine wraith
yea game dev is not performance based
pliant topaz
i guess different tolerances for different people!
im grinding the new zed skin instead for example
alpine wraith
they even struggle to hire likely with how much knowledge you need
and how bad the pay is
runic trail
i'll fix sub
Secret technique spawns glorps instead of shadow clones
lilac stag
They can’t even fix the renown bug with one of the patch features. You all expect them to fix an underplayed spec.
vale pine
im grinding the new zed skin instead for example
To be honest, i think there is currently a general problem in gaming where most games just exploit their players.
The "success" formula more times than not is based on Gambling.
And the engagement is kept high by designing systems to require excessive grinds with bead crump rewards.
bleak night
horse armor ruined gaming
vale pine
Its also a psychological problem for players, because they feel more rewarded to grind for something which more times than not only benefits them. Also why you see less games without progression systems now, and certain genres are almost extinct due to it.
pliant topaz
To be honest, i think there is currently a general problem in gaming where most ...
oh if you meant the zed skin its not really gambling or grind, its one of the battle pass rewards. since its the prestige skin its the last reward so its at the end of battle pass.
but yes they are
in general
alpine wraith
fuu meant games like old maplestory or runescape
like legit months farm for 1 thing
wow could also be like that
even at the end of classic we had some people without some good things
bleak night
so rep farming in old wow
alpine wraith
rep farming in wow was so good because it was very easy
vale pine
Like you can think of it like this.
You get home from work, eat something.
Now you have 2 hours before your friends come online, the decision on what you do is between:
- Some dead boring grind which may find you some super rare material or a 0.2% damage increase for a game you play together.
- Play something which is fun and challanging without pre requirements like celest, super mario, certain puzzle games, etc.
alpine wraith
compared to old mmos
wow was a breath of fresh air
you didnt even lose gear or lvls by dying!
vale pine
turns out almost everyone prefers the first option, and would skip on the second one entirely.
alpine wraith
we were more masochistic back then
bleak night
yeah compared to the old hardcore mmos wow was more casual, but that type of grind is still massive compared to todays stuff
alpine wraith
yea it was
vale pine
as stupid as it sounds, it was the "mmorpg for dummies"
you did not require complex spell systems
you could do all the questing alone
alpine wraith
the biggest thing we liked was the not many loading screens
vale pine
and you still had enough of a reward for basically just playing the game to keep players engaged
vale pine
so the above was "inovative" for the time
bleak night
yes, like i said it was indeed more casual than the stuff that came before it
but the grind was still comparable to the type of stuff you're talking about today
the problem isnt the grind, its how predatory monetization around it has gotten in gaming in general
vale pine
the grind just became their baseline pillar of gameplay
it is why its still the central part of the game
you just can't grind all at once anymore to stay active longer
alpine wraith
you cant have one with another people nowadays dont even need to ever grind and that is fine
same as we dont wake up at 4 am to go get water
vale pine
the solution they came up with was time gating and minor patches which introduce new upgrade systems
lilac stag
Grind today is nothing like EQ / Og wow
vale pine
you cant have one with another people nowadays dont even need to ever grind and ...
wow in a sense is more generouse for sure, still requires a lot of work to keep up
Runescape is probably a good example of grind
haughty rose
i swear every sub rogue i encountered in low keys is weird af
none of them played rotten and tfd so i asked them why and got only confused half answers 😂
vale pine
but for sure, everyone sees this topic diffrent^^
if you enjoy the content, its not nessecery grind for you
haughty rose
the one right now said "yeah sub is great" after i explained why he should choose the rotten lmao
vale pine
e.g. some people love the leveling experience in classic
and don't think its grindy or slow
vale pine
the one right now said "yeah sub is great" after i explained why he should choos...
idk if there is someone playing finality or brew in m+
on a higher r.io score
haughty rose
probably not. i mean i'm all in for experimenting in low keys and i just tried to help
but it's so funny that 3 sub rogues were completely lost after i talked to them lmao
lilac stag
Sounds like a you issue
not everyone wants help. quite happy living in the moment just running a key.
vale pine
mythic+ should have a soloq mode
bleak night
real
swift tinsel
if they had something that requires x key level completed to queue for x key level I'd dig it
once you get to a certain key level
+12 maybe idk
bleak night
there'd definitely have to be some system in place to stop people queueing for keys they dont have the gear/io for
vale pine
As stupid as it sounds, if you run world first key levels
bleak night
but i'd take scuffed solo queue over sitting in dorn for an hour
swift tinsel
yeah fs, a soloq system would work for like 75% of the key running base
if not more
like for weekly 10's/12's where you just wanna hop in for vault
would be great
vale pine
huh
swift tinsel
and having 'safeguards' that try to include at least one lust, brez would be nice but not required
vale pine
👀
bleak night
hollow spear
or a 900% ap buff to goremaws
Oh baby
vale pine
i played around ye
trickster feels fine
deathstalker i feel is numerical good
but still plays like shit
vale pine
you mean deathstalker or trickster
swift tinsel
Mostly deathstalker
vale pine
i am not entirely sure how to solve the tier set
bleak night
you mean deathstalker or trickster
Yes
swift tinsel
It makes locking DN to evisc feel worse
vale pine
the 4 set is kinda whatever
swift tinsel
Imo
Bc from the testing I did I felt symbols consuming a mark led to more conflicts in priority
Or would block Sectech from benefiting from a mark bc of DN
Could be anecdotal because I didn’t try hard to optimize avoiding those situations
dry plank
Boomie got old sub funnel or what?
swift tinsel
Which, if you have to actively babysit marks to not have it brick Sectech that’s just not fun gameplay to me
vale pine
Boomie got old sub funnel or what?
idk funnel is handed out like candy
they just try to avoid giving it to sub
vale pine
Which, if you have to actively babysit marks to not have it brick Sectech that’s...
ye it felt off for sure
pliant topaz
the 4 set is kinda whatever
the 4 set just sounds at best annoying at worst horrendous
pliant topaz
specially with how bad stack drops are
vale pine
so getitng more symbols uptime is just a slight boost in damage
and the dm consume just means you need to be careful when/how to use
pliant topaz
imagine having to prss symbol based on the finality stacks for example to make sure darkest night is always finality
thats just cancer gameplay
that could become real
vale pine
oh absolutely
pliant topaz
but if not, it just becomes annoying as fuck that ah yes i must have atleat 1 mark stack to symbol
if my target dies in aoe i have to get mark back up then symbol
with the no DN aoe tech, u are now like yes i need to be aware of when i symbol so i dont just proc DN
just xd
pliant topaz
where notes <:sitmadge:1098972930605588491>
i have them want them?
haughty mural
hit me
pliant topaz
all of it or just the rogue part?
haughty mural
rogue
bleak night
swift tinsel
Rogue Notes: || ||
pliant topaz
sin : idk some buffs some nerfs some bugfixes
outlaw: idk some buffs some nerfs some bugfixes
sub: idk go fuck yourself ig still paying me LMFAO
bleak night
I mean the update is just raid testing no
bleak night
I don't expect anything
haughty mural
thx guys
pliant topaz
anytime
vale pine
they're giving sub kyveza animations
someone made a interessting point lately
dry plank
they're giving sub kyveza animations
Dh
vale pine
if blizz rly intends to add a "void dh" spec
it might be in conflict with subtlety design
because void and shadow is so close
keen dome
Yeah
swift tinsel
I'm as unserious about void dh becoming a spec as Blizz was unserious about the void dh boss
keen dome
It'd conflict with multiple specs
dry plank
they're giving sub kyveza animations
And took our sectech to new dh spec and replace it with evis with cool poop sound
keen dome
Shadow Priest, Sub rogue, the other DH melee spec.
vale pine
I'm as unserious about void dh becoming a spec as Blizz was unserious about the ...
well it seems not too unlikely to see a void dh spec with something like polearms
keen dome
Like, there's simply no logical room for a melee based void / shadow DH
keen dome
Yeah
swift tinsel
similar to how druid forms differ by race
keen dome
I think Void Elf DH / cosmetic
swift tinsel
plus
keen dome
the fact Void Elfs can't be DH's already is just a weird thing n general
swift tinsel
Voodoo in Fel Hammer noted the purple icons were found in the same library the same way as the updated icons/visuals for recolored Sigil of Spite and The Hunt
which to me says
recolor
fallow nimbus
and nightborn dh for horde
keen dome
and nightborn dh for horde
ye, precisely
nightborn DH's make a ton of sense post-Legion too
swift tinsel
plus a quest for GestaltDH to teach void elves how to become dh's (this is exclusively how I will refer to Adarus from now on)
hollow spear
They might delete sub
swift tinsel
is in game
fallow nimbus
in midnight maybe
haughty mural
https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/a93ca7811d3efca63d9263c482282e144...
thx chef
keen dome
Legion remix.
10 gold is we get more races as DH's in legion remix
Name a better time to do that
"Hey the Bronze guys were wondering what'd happen if more people followed Illidnas teaching"
hollow spear
Name a *better time* to do that
11.2?
bleak night
I mean if void can take the place of the demons powers for dh why can't arcane or other powers
swift tinsel
Legion remix.
this too might have a bearing on it I was thinking
bleak night
More races confirmed
hollow spear
I think we should get back to the important things, the hot topic
bleak night
Velf is hot topic
hollow spear
Some people tried to downplay the newly found truth
keen dome
Adarus, the raid boss, shopped at hot topic
hollow spear
He didn't use goremaw enough
swift tinsel
Right!
keen dome
And they're making a joke with this guy
swift tinsel
keen dome
'cos the other two with him? look normal
swift tinsel
and there are plenty of purple dh mogs to use
some of which look banger
or
hear me out
they design one
for a boss
keen dome
"So we've got this side boss. He's got some lore, we've got this fun idea about void DH stuff. We don't need much resources 'cos we'll slap it together with some recolouring and assets. Sound cool? rad"
then the player base just explodes NEW SPEC COMING
hollow spear
Kyveza dh when?
runic trail
"So we've got this side boss. He's got some lore, we've got this fun idea about ...
Then WoWhead senses the potential for clicks and adds fuel to the fire
swift tinsel
"So we've got this side boss. He's got some lore, we've got this fun idea about ...
to cap it off, he drops a grey-quality trash item called Entropy
swift tinsel
"fuckin' fooled your asses LMAO"
keen dome
okay so here's the real question
swift tinsel
for the flavor text
keen dome
what came first: the boss concept or the glavie asset
swift tinsel
Could be an idea that was meant for a raid drop
keen dome
'ocs they would've been making those anyway for loot
so it's entirely possible the asset was made and someone went "oh man what if"
'Cos it's an optinal encounter iirc
(except it isn't)
swift tinsel
yeah, though I think it'll be regularly downed bc it drops the 50% cloak boots
and Sigil trinket
so fully incentivized to kill
keen dome
optional raid bosses can't function in today design of how wow works imo
swift tinsel
if it dropped something like Roulette
or Alakir
where it was random stat roll gear
could be a fun gamba boss to mix things up
keen dome
Still wouldn't be optional anyway 'cos 8 boss raid, need 6 for vault
swift tinsel
ah fair point, yeah
keen dome
It would be skipped eventually but by then it's kinda whatever
hollow spear
It's optional when my guild notices it's too hard for 20 apes
keen dome
good point
hollow spear
Next season I'll join one of your pugs to terrorise you
keen dome
Hell yeah
hollow spear
Never saw one of them funnily enough
keen dome
I typically ran them in the morning on reset.
Haven't in a while 'cos I got burnt out on doing it and then stopped needing anything from the raid haha
haughty mural
I typically ran them in the morning on reset.
clever delta
bro is gamer
swift tinsel
omg we get a goo horse
keen dome
A Slorse
keen dome
yes please
keen dome
takes meta. We get shadow form
swift tinsel
(had to give up funnel to get them tho so who really lost)
keen dome
purple DH is us
swift tinsel
lmao if shadow dance made us into void dh meta form I would laugh myself to death
and would troll my guildmates who have been pushing the fake narrative endlessly
runic trail
Hardest part of sub so far, resisting the urge to spam adadadada during downtime
I have a desire to hit buttons but I cannot hit buttons.
runic trail
I am trying to break the adadadada habit
hollow spear
Just spam the everliving shit out of your backstab button if you have to
runic trail
Why not adadadada
Because I occasionally get drawn into doing it at bad times
swift tinsel
I literally never move if I'm not avoiding things lol
or stacking for soaks
rip
vale pine
yep
i wanted to test specs a bit more earlier
but the ptr is now not only unstable
its rip
swift tinsel
man that's annoying
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker
pliant topaz
more time for blizz to fix things
its actuyally because they forgot to put in all the new sub stuff so had to cancel it u know
north schooner
they forgot to put in the 4th rogue spec - void rogue
swift tinsel
(A)void(playing) Rogue
north schooner
looking at the rogue playerbase that's already live
haughty mural
All in stealth
clever delta
atleast i was chilling with random german guild on discord for hour
haughty mural
https://tenor.com/view/germany-bavaria-lederhosen-dance-folk-dance-gif-10171177
Not all of us look like that
lilac stag
Not all of us look like that
haughty mural
daring trail
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
solemn creek
Oh.. nice bug. 4p not working.. this seems to happen every patch. 😅
lilac stag
it's working
warm marlin
Until sims come in I really really really really doubt its better to use goremaw...
It really was just a throwaway test because hehe goremaw meme
From my huge sample size of like 2 the damage seemed similar to 2x finality but very likely due to variance
Now what did make a large difference was holding coups for dances vs trying to send them on cd and force as many casts as possible
The dpet of coups is dance is nearly as high as a sectec
Those things were blasting
pliant topaz
its always sketchy with these test. the holding vs non holding gets really complicated tbh because theres so many variables like cdr and energy tht come in. one extra cast could be a huge difference etc
warm marlin
For sure I was just bored and trying to get some scuffed data before sims
swift tinsel
I’m personally all-in on PVmaxxing
swift tinsel
Oh I know, whenever I see people post builds with it I throw up in my mouth
lilac stag
we're at a point that sub likes crit. it's likely not as bad as it was when you were active.
amazing? no
you can describe 95% of the talent tree as beyond bad
swift tinsel
Doesn’t it still sim within margin of error
warm marlin
crit probably also gets worse next tier if playing netherprism
since hoc had mastery you can prob shift a lot of crit back into it
worthy mirage
Quick question if anyone can help me out
For sub rogue
Is the 5 piece bonus for the spectral gamblers damned gear not worth it since the armor changes stats when u upgrade?
Versatility+mastery stats on gear over the 5 piece bonus?
wind canopy
There’s no such thing as a five piece bonus?
Just pick the four best pieces for your four piece and then craft for that last slot
pliant topaz
we're at a point that sub likes crit. it's likely not as bad as it was when you ...
I think youre confusing PV with PE
PE gives crit its not bad at all, probably the best non mandatory talent in fact. PV makes ur backstab do backstab + xd
worthy mirage
I upgraded the pvp gear in dornogal
Was told by someone it was the bis but looks like it was for pve
swift tinsel
You’ll want to wear the tier pieces in the helm, shoulder, chest and legs slot for sub
Gloves ideally with vers/mastery
worthy mirage
pliant topaz
for pvp stuff you can ask from #pvp. these other channels are PVE focused. maybe notrickz can help also
hazy breach
Was told by someone it was the bis but looks like it was for pve
Gear scales up/down in any content on ptr
So you literally dont need to buy anything
Oh if its for pvp then maybe, idk
lilac stag
I think youre confusing PV with PE
Yeah. I think I just removed the backstab one away from my brain.
opal basalt
if ToP isn't the perfect dungeon for sub rogue then idk what is
brittle plinth
its a perfect dungeon for dark ranger too
fluid moth
Sub is really good in rookery too
opal basalt
isnt there a problem with the first boss and sectech dudes?
fluid moth
yes
opal basalt
but yeah for last boss its insane
opal basalt
tell me, i've been playing outlaw in that dungeon mostly so far
at least since i knew about the sectech problem
fluid moth
I think you just dont use it while its in the middle doing its lightning thingy
opal basalt
ah well that makes sense
opal basalt
its a perfect dungeon for dark ranger too
bro played sentinel
brittle plinth
bro played sentinel
no accounting for bad taste
hazy breach
isnt there a problem with the first boss and sectech dudes?
Its a details issue
Or well, its the same issue sectech has in raids if the rogue is too far away from the logger, the combatlog of those fuckers are just bugged
It still hits the boss, it just doesnt attribute it properly to the rogue
opal basalt
oh i see, i thought there was something with them simply falling through the cloud thingy
bleak night
thats what people thought at first
i choose to still believe it because its significantly funnier
opal basalt
it 100% is funnier
hazy breach
Pretty sure both are true
They hit from the bottom of the pit, and thats why theyre out of range
swift tinsel
are ptr login servers still shitting the bed
chrome palm
they arent open
swift tinsel
ah lame
bleak night
ready to ship
lean arrow
Does sub use SND ever?
lean arrow
Gotcha
swift tinsel
there's niche times to use it
lilac stag
After packs
sullen hare
Wrong again niemals. Yeah I guess you use it in very niche situations like scath said, where those combo points would otherwise go to waste to dump a slice and dice for CDR. @lean arrow it's just not very often and not really used in combat itself
lean arrow
Wrong again niemals. Yeah I guess you use it in very niche situations like scath...
I see i see 😮
sullen hare
As always a confidently wrong answer gets quick responses 😉
lilac stag
tbf I doubt that’s documented anywhere in guides
sullen hare
But if you've ever scratched your head as you why it's completely absent from the guides it's because of the changes to cut to the chase which just automatically gives us flat snd duration from eviscerate
swift tinsel
season 2 tier set is also an instigator of using snd over something like just BP
warm marlin
black powder and shuriken storm in st 
tribal blade
@plush roost did they do something with charged bolts, i see literally every single sin rogue is running it right now
plush roost
That seems wrong
plush roost
<@141665120764952576> did they do something with charged bolts, i see literally ...
where are u seeing this?
tribal blade
where are u seeing this?
i was just scrolling down the ranking page on rio
clicking on every name and it shows everyone is using charged bolts
it even shows you're using charged bolts haha
tribal blade
ok it's a rio problem, i clicked on your wow profile and it shows you're using the crit one
chrome palm
rio also says i use hotline in every key
tribal blade
ok yeah rio is gaslighting, clicked on shindigg's wow profile and he's using mastery
cool problem solved
thought i was losing my mind
tribal blade
rio also says i use hotline in every key
haha bastards
tribal blade
@hazy breach about to do a top, let's see if i get sent down every single time again
i swear every time i do top i'm sent down most of the time on xav
short radish
next pull for sure
lilac stag
Next week
short radish
overtime time
lilac stag
nah
runic trail
Just rare that you wipe so close on Gally
Happened to us on the second add spawn in P2, boss was on 5% or so
hollow spear
Depends on how hard your group is blasting boss damage. You can die around that percentage if the last hand in goes awry.
tribal blade
just takes 1 debuff person to die
to wipe the entire raid
that's how most of the late wipes happen
cloud rover
I think i dided once on that fight
that was yesterday
Because i ran into the Beam at the pull
tribal blade
i think i've never been hit by the beam ever
tribal blade
haha
tribal blade
it's fun dying because of other people
cloud rover
That didnt happen very often for us
But we had like 4 Melees doing it
Tank included
round latch
By the guys behind me
this will be quote mined and used against u in the court of law
cloud rover
this will be quote mined and used against u in the court of law
quote this 
short radish
Just rare that you wipe so close on Gally
cloud rover
Thas the typical "i dont respect mechanics after 5%"
short radish
yeah
it was a missed soak
with 2 ppl dead
RL said it was a bad call or something
or they should have called it
?
short radish
Good morning
Any news <:PauseChamp:748835776548044800> ?
well we haven't had any documented nerfs
so thats good
runic trail
Keeping the copium high today
No copium, just adopt the 'it be how it be' mindset
odd cosmos
playing +16 and +17 as sub for the btm event made me to realize, why the fuck blizzard hates so much sub on m+? why the grog addicted spec has to shine always 😦
tribal blade
playing +16 and +17 as sub for the btm event made me to realize, why the fuck...
nobody plays sub
therefore blizz doesn't work on sub
therefore nobody plays sub
therefore blizz doesn't work on sub
you see the pattern here
odd cosmos
keen dome
nobody plays sub
am I statistical outlier
keen dome
Just massively making the trend of Sub being played go up
odd cosmos
i was playin it at the start of the season
but i got stomped at +12
when those where a big deal
round latch
am I statistical outlier
pretty much
tribal blade
sub felt so good at the start of the season
round latch
tribal blade
until gear happened
keen dome
Sub still feels good!!!
It's just everything else is.. better.
(Not really we're solid middle)
keen dome
Sub is fine in M+ until you hit like, higher keys
odd cosmos
that's the level im tryin 😦
keen dome
rip. I imagine the cutoff is probably around 18's now if you aren't in a fully organized group
odd cosmos
not to speak with the general lack of invites just from not being a boomy/dk/mage
odd cosmos
yah
tribal blade
rip. I imagine the cutoff is probably around 18's now if you aren't in a fully o...
cutoff is around 19s atm
chrome palm
cutoff is around 19s atm
Had a 675 pug brew tank a 19 dfc a few weeks ago as sub
keen dome
cutoff is around 19s atm
oh, neat.
I have to guess because I am a little baby boy in M+
I'm surprised I wasn't far off
tribal blade
Had a 675 pug brew tank a 19 dfc a few weeks ago as sub
oh yeah i think i remember you saying that
chrome palm
Sometimes without comms you just got those long “why is this pack never dying” moments in pugs as sub
We also did a motherlode and one of the guys on the last boss lived forever because sub/enh
tribal blade
haha yeah end of packs is rough as sub
got a 19 ML today
with a priest padding the deaths
tribal blade
lol yeah
but this guy's deaths were so incredibly dumb
1 time he straight up walked face first into a mine
keen dome
tribal blade
and then typed "lmao"
chrome palm
Holy chad
tribal blade
that was his 4th death
i think he also stood in a brainstorm
i could tell this guy had 0 awareness haha
was tunneling healing
tribal blade
they truly are
chrome palm
Truly it’s better to just one trick a single class and wait years until it’s your turn and surely not the 9th season of mage/priest in a row
tribal blade
Truly it’s better to just one trick a single class and wait years until it’s you...
put boomy in there too maybe
but yeah i don't think it's gonna change
keen dome
It might. You never know.
tribal blade
true! never know
odd cosmos
Truly it’s better to just one trick a single class and wait years until it’s you...
last season mage sucked ass
a win i guess
tribal blade
last season mage sucked ass
really?
chrome palm
Obviously 9 seasons was hyperbole but
odd cosmos
SoB oneshoted mages
chrome palm
Is my brain fried wtf is sob
tribal blade
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-tww-1/all/world/leaderboards-strict this is the timed leaderboard for S1
tribal blade
mm yeah i guess mage was not as dominant least season as it has been
but it was still being used to time the highest keys
so it was like "average top tier"
instead of "OP top tier"
chrome palm
Still obviously very strong this expac and the previous
I pray for prot war to be busted next season
tribal blade
if prot warr is busted we're 1 step towards phys comp season
chrome palm
Surely they don’t let vengeance be the meta spec it’s been vengeance for a really long time outside of last season
tribal blade
yoda had a good point
no tank has been meta twice in a row
it's always changing
so maybe veng isn't meta next hopefully
chrome palm
Wasn’t vdh meta s3/s4 df
tribal blade
let me check
chrome palm
But I imagine that blizzard has some philosophy about tank specs “taking a turn” as the meta spec
chrome palm
It was like oppressively insanely strong too
tribal blade
it's definitely real
tribal blade
Wasn’t silence longer too?
can't remember
but veng could solo the start of a pull for like ~40 secs
chrome palm
And Aug oppressive roar
tribal blade
if they played well
tribal blade
yeah aug paired really well with veng
chrome palm
Due for a brewmaster meta
tribal blade
brewmaster deserves to be meta
chrome palm
Yeah if any rogue spec is meta it isn’t gonna be sub lmao
odd cosmos
grog clownery would be a reallity
with the KS rework
last time i knew didnt have a target cap
chrome palm
Hope I don’t have to play death stalker sin for the 3rd season in a row for m+
odd cosmos
not even a soft
odd cosmos
Hope I don’t have to play death stalker sin for the 3rd season in a row for m+
bugstalker mark
odd cosmos
force inducction would be so screwed
chrome palm
And then sub is just stacking sht while every cleave phase lines up with cds
runic trail
Losing the mark every 90s on 2nd boss
It's fine just gotta burn subterfuge vanishes 
odd cosmos
bet all to fatebound to be a thing
runic trail
I'm traumatised when it comes to target switching bosses as deathstalkers after court
Court as deathstalker sin was fucking miserable
odd cosmos
they made it with san layn hero talents
chrome palm
Sit on darkest night so you can hit the immune add and then you need to proc it again to move it BACK to his mount
Incredible hero talent
chrome palm
bet all to fatebound to be a thing
Doesn’t fatebound lose dps on 2 target
odd cosmos
Sit on darkest night so you can hit the immune add and then you need to proc it ...
sounds like first boss of cinderbrew
runic trail
Incredible hero talent
Surely they fix it this patch though right 
chrome palm
Does any other spec have to deal with as much bullshit as sin to just do it’s normal aoe rotation
Maybe totemic but last I checked it isn’t tied to a 2 min cd
runic trail
I'm now having to train myself to swap targets again after 2 seasons of sin, this hero talent broke me
odd cosmos
i know that warrior arms has to deal with being stuck just for his hero talent dying to any kind of zone
but isnt bugged as deathmarks
sometimes finishing with the 7 points just to have darkest night reseted for no reason
hazy breach
Sub is fine in M+ until you hit like, higher keys
Sub is alright in higher keys too
Not far behind the other rogue specs
odd cosmos
Sub is alright in higher keys too
tell me the secret to not be capped at 4.1m
(4.4 at sims)
chrome palm
Another really awkward thing about sub is that tfd and kezan are very contrary to each other
hazy breach
tell me the secret to not be capped at 4.1m
press buttons
tribal blade
sub is surprisingly decent
iron fjord
Do you guys use anything specific to alter your combat texts?
tribal blade
i had a guildie on the train of turning off combat text
because it's just screen clutter most of the time
short radish
Do you guys use anything specific to alter your combat texts?
i use MSBT
iron fjord
because it's just screen clutter most of the time
yes, agree
but it's also big dopamine