subtlety

[vocal wolf]

I use it a lot on MW and sin

[swift tinsel]

between knowing how to get the most from WCL and looking at lorrgs there's so much valuable info

[runic trail]

You'll be fine, we've only hit P2 3 times and he's down to 13%

[hazy breach]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[hazy breach]

The spreadsheet above should be updated to include the new tier set bugs. Dont think ive seen any of the other issues fixed yet on ptr, hopefully they get to it

But who knows

[rain crag]

Hello yall! I’m a very new to this discord (actually my first time speaking in here) and wanted to know if this was the right place to get clarification on how to set up a subtlety ability bar? 😅

Truthfully I wish I knew how for all 3 specs, coming from maining Paladin I’m having a bit of hard time finding the rhythm of which abilities to use first, as well as…Do I need to keep Shadow Dance off cooldown and if not dancing use symbols off cooldown as well?

Somehow between WoWhead and other guides it’s just not clicking too well yet, any help would be appreciated!

[hazy breach]

Have your stealth and non-stealth bar be identical

(or have an addon which disables the switching between them, either works)

And no, you dont want to keep shadow dance of cooldown

You want to make sure you can always use 2 dances, 2 symbols and 2 sectechs during flagellation+blades

[rain crag]

Oh yeah this is 100% the goal

[hazy breach]

Which means you need to have 1 dance charge and roughly 35 seconds left on your second charge when you start going into cds with flag

[rain crag]

How bad is it if I have to ask what sectech is?

[hazy breach]

Secret technique

[rain crag]

And I want at least 2 of these during flagellation? Does that come after shadow strike from stealth?

[hazy breach]

Follow the opener in any of the guides

And then you do that exact same thing every 90s when flagellation and shadow blades is ready again

And youre doing most of the damage you should be doing

[rain crag]

I see. Thank you 😅

[lilac stag]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals of during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[rain crag]

Shadow strike is being used outside of stealth too??

[hazy breach]

You cannot use shadowstrike outside of stealth no

[vocal wolf]

Does imgur link from "this picture" not work for anyone else btw?

[rain crag]

It does on my end, just having a hard time making sense of it lmao

[vocal wolf]

Might be a mobile thing

For me then

Kek

[lilac stag]

Works on mobile

[vocal wolf]

Word

I posted the direct link in another discord and it works there

Idk what is up with my browser

[swift tinsel]

no trickster or dn/mark bugfixes yet

might check the other ds ones later

[hazy breach]

I wouldnt really bother checking all of it for a while, just check a couple and if theyre not fixed just chill

[swift tinsel]

ye, will probably check again with a new build later

[hazy breach]

If they post about things getting fixed or if some of them get fixed we can start go through the others

[swift tinsel]

tbf they didn't list a single one from last ptr cycle

found the RS one just by checking builds when they dropped

and going through the buglist line by line

[hollow spear]

Yeah they're chronically bad at tracking fixes

[swift tinsel]

big one would be darkest night and marks if I were to guess they tackle any specific ones this cycle

because of the tier set being affected directly by marks

[hollow spear]

Yeah, putting out a mark related set bonus and still having that bug around

Would be kinda bad taste

[swift tinsel]

last time around I started with that one and the nimble bugs when a new ptr build would be live which is what I'm gonna do this time too bc I'm bored lol

besides checking for trickster tier fix obv

[hollow spear]

Some of the tier set changes they made are kind of hard to balance

The 30s CDR on sin for example

If that turns out to be too strong, they'd have to make up for that by nerfing the fatebound tree somehow

[void hound]

1:30 sin

why not give them shadow dance as well

while we are at it

[bleak night]

thats silly they would never give other specs shadow dance

[lilac stag]

ever

[void ocean]

anyone else having some graphic issues since 11.1.7 released?

like addons going apeshit crazy

[brittle plinth]

Nothing like that no

Addons always struggle couple days, use a bug catcher to identify and turn off the bad boys

[rain crag]

Is coup de grace one of those flashing abilities that you instantly hit at any point that it procs or does it still need to be within a rotation? Stupid question possibly but wanted to make sure

[swift tinsel]

there's still a priority to it

especially if your big burst window is coming up soon

[lucid jackal]

@rain crag

[rain crag]

Saving this, thank you very much

I’m gonna study the opener and see if I can blend the rest of it together as instructed

[swift tinsel]

Guydlines

[lucid jackal]

Don't follow a script for the opener as procs will change thing but learn the heuristics

[rain crag]

OH LMAO

[lucid jackal]

Shadowcraft procs change things slightly

Coup changes things slightly

[hazy breach]

It changes in the way that you wouldnt use shadowstrike when you are at full combo points yes

[lucid jackal]

It's build with shadowstrike, spend with evis/sectec

Not rocket science but you might get a refund one pull vs another

Where u go Strike evis evis strike rather than strike evis strike evis evis kwim

@vale pine can we actually get my screenshot as a !tldr type command

I think it helps a lot of people get broad "goals" of the specs

[rain crag]

This right here became a foreign language briefly but I see the vision lmao

[lucid jackal]

Read shadowcraft

[rain crag]

With some flags in between?

[lucid jackal]

Capstone talent

Well, technically but I don't like how you phrased that statement

[rain crag]

My fault lmao

[lucid jackal]

Flag and blades is the spec

Doing your flag/blades properly is all of your damage

If you beef your cds you don't do damage

[rain crag]

By blades are we referring to that one AOE ability?

[hazy breach]

Shadow blades

[runic trail]

I'm currently learning the spec and thats very handy, thank you!

[rain crag]

OH different ability

[rain crag]

What are the most common issues that cause you to lose energy quickly?

[lucid jackal]

That's not a bug it's a feature

The spec outside of dance/symbols has no energy

And then in those Cd's you have unlimited energy

Sub can't really have "energy issues" in that way if that makes sense

Energy issues are just how the spec is designed

[rain crag]

Well damn LOL glad to know that’s not too much my fault then 😂

[hollow spear]

if it wasn't for the cdr you get from finishers, you could go afk outside of shadow dance windows

[hollow prawn]

Why do you use symbols at 10s remaining on sectec, instead of immediately preceding it/one finisher preceding it?

[hazy breach]

Well 10 seconds is one finisher before

Its to make sure you always supercharge sectech

[hollow prawn]

Oh yeah, forgot the preceding supercharged finisher improves the CDR too

[lucid jackal]

Yeh

Supercharger good

[hollow prawn]

Gonna save the image somewhere so I can find it again easily lol

[lucid jackal]

There's some niche shit in there missing like

With coup up, you can symbols at 15 or less seconds on sectec cuz the added finisher cdr from coup

And like, backstab first generator (not first global) in dance

And moving dances and blades n shit around for bosses for mythic prog

But more of the essential stuff is covered in that screenshot lol

[hollow spear]

That backstab thingy might have slightly cursed me on our last sprocket kill, gotta check that

[alpine wraith]

if fw is not up and you ahve enough sht to proc shadowcraft you strike instead

[lilac stag]

!mistakes @rain crag

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[hazy breach]

Thats still moreso focused towards players familiar with the spec

Probably better suited to look for the "Easy mode" or simple rotation parts of the guides if youre completely new

[lilac stag]

if you can figure that part out you have the spec figured out.

idk if there’s just jump right in and slap keybinds like assa

[rain crag]

I will absolutely be doing that, thank you very much!

[formal plinth]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[runic trail]

One day I'll have a cooldown reset button for target dummy practice. Please. I beg.

Try opener, fuck it up, sit on my hands for 80 seconds before I can try again.

I just want to spam it on repeat until the muscle memory hits

[fluid moth]

Once the muscle memory hits most of the spec decision making is just managing cooldowns and getting a feel for cdr

https://lorrgs.io/ is also a great tool for encounter-specific cooldown timings too

[runic trail]

Yeah, just need to hit my head against a wall until the muscle memory hits!

[haughty mural]

And be aggressive with your cds in m+

[runic trail]

I'm getting much more consistent

Just need to fully cement it

[strong shoal]

for a second i was wondering why i was getting tagged

[lilac stag]

change your filter

[strong shoal]

nono i was glancing at the channel and kept seeing "... Royal"

xD

[lilac stag]

bet you felt special.

Are you still playing, or have ya taken a break? @strong shoal

[strong shoal]

i did for 3 seconds, until i realized Wait, that aint me!

[strong shoal]

Got 3k rating as fury warrior, did all major questlines, Curved, some tmog farming, and now im just chillin

leveled my dk so i could get lfr+normal tier, gonna do the same with hunter

[lilac stag]

gonna stay warrior for s3?

[strong shoal]

nah

and i only played my warrior in m+ either way, it was a fun distraction that i actually never did (not maining my rogue for a season)

[lilac stag]

it’s good to take a break from rogue, just like the devs do.

[strong shoal]

LOL

KS was kinda fixed for outlaw, hero talents tier sets look interesting

not mad about the next big patch

[keen dome]

Purple patch

[strong shoal]

so far seems to be a W patch

[lilac stag]

Outlaw is fun on ptr. Sub tbd. Shit don’t work. shocking I know.

I love the cheesy KS animation

[strong shoal]

I'll be honest, i (ME) wouldn't redo the animation like they did, i'd keep the teleporting everywhere BUT make it like blade dance. But this model is so fucking thematic i can't even be mad

[lilac stag]

I honestly don’t want to be reminded of current KS ever again

say hello to my little friend is perfect.

https://tenor.com/view/started-blasting-gif-22279334

[vale pine]

outlaw tier confirmed?

[strong shoal]

Fuu! How we feeling with the sub tier sets next season? any cool/funny mechs or plain simple stuff?

[vale pine]

deathstalker is boring

trickster adds more burst, so thats good

the tier set in isolation looks fine, i am not celebrating it

if you compare it to other specs tho, it has a bit of a bitter taste

e.g. assassiantion getting the option to decide between 120 and 90 sec cooldowns does sound a lot like what subtlety asked for in 10.2 and patches after.

[lucid jackal]

New ks is so sick

[strong shoal]

Better than what it was, i feel like

[haughty mural]

All we can do is Double coup 🙂

I wish they would make unseen more trackable for those resets

[strong shoal]

Would make it "flash" on the actionbars help?

i dont really know how it works

played a total of 10mins of sub since TWW started

[swift tinsel]

A proc glow on the button would be a nice start

[vale pine]

so there is a certain fear now that subtlety gets the worse outcome.
Because 90 and 120 sec does cover the most common raid event timings you can have
and adds on top of all the niches like funnel damage, execute, etc. assassiantion has.
So there is for me at least this fear of a even greater loss of identity for subtlety, while the spec remains with a lot of small issues.

[haughty mural]

Yea would be a nice start

[swift tinsel]

Or a buff that was trackable maybe

LE’s aura does a good job of estimating but it’s all after the fact

So you know when it has reset, not when your next BS/Strike will proc

[strong shoal]

I wonder what it will be like with the fact that fatebound does lose dmg with multiple targets, and "how many targets" would be too much to not play 90sec CD

[vale pine]

i mean sub does not do that much more damage in cleave too

nimble is not insane in that term

means outlaw is the main competition

[swift tinsel]

Giving sin sub’s cd timing niche is a slippery slope

[haughty mural]

I always did my own WAs till tww
LEs does fit my ui so incredibly well and those trackers are really nice

[lucid jackal]

Sin has had cdr tier sets in the past idk

It's just a 1 tier thing idk if it's that big a deal

[strong shoal]

Yeah we played 90sec during S3 SL

with double legendary

[vale pine]

if the 90 and 120 sec dynamic is liked

there is a chance blizz puts it in talents

things like this happened in the past

[swift tinsel]

Another toy for the sin kit

[vale pine]

also, i don't think its a good argument

to say

"hey this won't be relevant next xpac"

[vocal wolf]

Inb4 sub becomes the 2min and sin swaps to 90s

[lilac stag]

I’ve said it this tier. Outlaw is in a great spot just KS ruins it. If it was deleted now I think you’d see a lot more people enjoying it

[swift tinsel]

Yeah with the amount of tier sets that end up as talents in some form your point is def relevant

[lilac stag]

I’ll 100% have an outlaw setup ready if I decide to resub

[vale pine]

i just think its not a relevant argument, because we life in the reality of the next tier lasting up to 12 months

and whats after is irrelevant, because new xpacs usually bring big changes

[swift tinsel]

Isn’t new xpac out this fall/winter?

[lilac stag]

Unless sub rogue.

[keen dome]

Nah, next year

[swift tinsel]

Ah

[keen dome]

11.2 is gonna be August. So probably gnona see Midnight at Q1/Q2.

[swift tinsel]

And they basically said no fated too right

If memory serves

[lilac stag]

I don’t think they want to do another holiday launch

[swift tinsel]

Yeah that was kinda scuffed for them

[lilac stag]

So I’d expect mid January

[keen dome]

Yeah, no fated but who knows. We'll probably get a slightly longer S3 with Remix?

[warm marlin]

12 months???

[lucid jackal]

Duskwalker food pads existed for all of legion, and then there was a shadowlands legendary..? I think that had cdr as well but both weren't good

[warm marlin]

Ain’t no way

[lucid jackal]

They also totally went away after the fact

[lilac stag]

In midnight raid by Feb

[warm marlin]

Ye Jan/early feb midnight at the latest

[swift tinsel]

That would be my thought

[lilac stag]

Who knows what prepatch will be. Maybe new home development.

[swift tinsel]

Lol just all housing

[strong shoal]

Yes, most ended up crafting duskwalker on the chestpiece slot during SL s3

[lilac stag]

have to get permits

And construction crews

[swift tinsel]

With hero trees here to stay for the foreseeable future I don’t expect any big systems besides housing inc

[keen dome]

Feb sounds likely to me, yeah.

[swift tinsel]

Maybe a hunter tree rework again

[lilac stag]

Gives you time to prep for kyveza DH

[keen dome]

😠

[swift tinsel]

Give mages a fourth tree thats just a fuckin banger

[strong shoal]

i actually hope they don't add more, but improve what we have

[keen dome]

Same

[swift tinsel]

Also same

Full deathstalker rework

[warm marlin]

Holy moly goodbye charged bolts

Prayed for this day

[lilac stag]

I hope they add another 7 useless talents to sub tree

[keen dome]

lmao Blizz

[swift tinsel]

Address sub talents that suck

[keen dome]

BUFF THE BELT

Wait not like that

[warm marlin]

Charge enjoyers incoming

[swift tinsel]

Lol did they revert the 141% buff

[keen dome]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/charged-bolt-nerfed-by-massive-62-on-weekly-reset-upcoming-d-i-s-c-belt-tuning-377383?utm_source=discord-webhook

[vocal wolf]

DW they will give you current KS

[swift tinsel]

Lmao owned

[strong shoal]

The best way to not deal with the belt, it to NOT use the belt

[haughty mural]

Huh

[strong shoal]

^ which is what im doing

[keen dome]

Mastery buff it is I guess

Also I want free stamina and higher ilevel

so I will use it

[warm marlin]

Nah vers buff goated

The mastery one lines up sooo bad

[formal helm]

yep, same

[haughty mural]

I don’t even know how to get the other things so little attention did I pay

[chrome palm]

thank god

[haughty mural]

I just got my belt and be done with it

[formal helm]

but there could be a point where crit or vers is good too now?

[swift tinsel]

Ya boi doesn’t even have a belt

[haughty mural]

On reset

[chrome palm]

big vers buff :-)

[formal helm]

but all of those powers are insanely bland ngl

was hoping it'd be smth more interesting.

like they hyped this shit up so much

[swift tinsel]

Circes circlet but make it waist-sized

[formal helm]

and hten it's just

[warm marlin]

The mastery buff is just falling off for most of our big damage windows

[formal helm]

w/e.

[lucid jackal]

But yeah idk, sin has had a cdr theme sprinkled in every so often, it never ends up being permanent. Maybe it's cannablizes sub this tier, maybe sub is just overtuned (again)

[haughty mural]

I’ll take the overtune as long as my clones are falling of a cliff

[lilac stag]

If nothing else changes besides tier, the overtuned dream likely ain’t happening since it’s rather easy to see the percent increases off tier.

[lucid jackal]

Is it?

[lilac stag]

Don’t think we’re sneaking by with that one.

[warm marlin]

yall are just not believers in the power of a melee spymaster trinket

[swift tinsel]

I’m sure unholy will make it look good

[lucid jackal]

Yeah that too

I mean idk bro ppl are wrong af in predictions all the time

[formal helm]

oh I'm hyped about it, but idk
we'll see

[warm marlin]

you upscale transmitter to 723

[lucid jackal]

Provide feedback, trust the process

[warm marlin]

and it gives less stats than the new trinket

[formal helm]

I'd just like it if the state of the spec was a bit better

[warm marlin]

which also has a good damage proc

and lasts 5 seconds longer

[formal helm]

and not reliant on omega op trinket?

[swift tinsel]

Yeah the damage proc alone makes it a decent trinket

[lilac stag]

Feedback: nerf dev. Buff sub.

Bliz: got it. Buff dev

[lucid jackal]

Like idk, sub is already, I would argue, the best spec for raid

It gets an op trinket

[warm marlin]

ye

[haughty mural]

I don’t see it get through ptr untouched

[swift tinsel]

And the on-use with basically whenever-you-wanna-use functionality

[keen dome]

Sub season

[lucid jackal]

Just be optimistic idk

[warm marlin]

plus last boss having a 15s 200% damage amp?

[formal helm]

in 11.2?

[warm marlin]

like guaranteed ur playing sub on that

[swift tinsel]

Yeah

[lilac stag]

Assa was the best spec on the boss that mattered most in early prog

[lucid jackal]

In current raid idk about next tier

[warm marlin]

unless its only in execute

[lucid jackal]

It'll come down to tuning

[swift tinsel]

It lasts a full blades

[lilac stag]

Sub was good for the earlier ones

[formal helm]

ah,
I mean currently, probably yes, I'd agree with that

[swift tinsel]

Idk if it’s in execute then with spymaster that’s still juice

But it looks like the vuln is an intermission type thing

[formal helm]

btw that 1st look at dimensius reminds me of dvalin fight in genshin idk why

[lilac stag]

Nothing melee wise came close to assa on mugz with two DMs in execute / splatter

[warm marlin]

also when we already getting more burst probably with tier set idk

[lucid jackal]

Yeah mugzee was a sin fight

And then tuning made it a sin raid

Post buff tho sub is really good

[lilac stag]

and that is the CE boss

[lucid jackal]

Decent tier set, op trinket = easy tier idk

[warm marlin]

sub was great on bandit though

[lilac stag]

now it’s like a land of mid for all three specs

[warm marlin]

and gallywix was fine

[lucid jackal]

Rogue is not mid in raid rn lol

[lilac stag]

All three are legit in the middle of the pack overall.

[alpine wraith]

yea it is kinda out there in the middle most of the tim

[lilac stag]

The definition of mid.

[lucid jackal]

I mean idk how it's the case that this channel is more negative on this specs prospect's as "the go tier raid spec" than fucking outlaw

This spec has been the rogue spec for the better part of the past 2 expansions

Outlaw has seen what, 2 objectively "outlaw tiers"

And even those tiers it's not played by the majority

Sub consistently has been the raid spec for people on the high end

Sub is getting spymasters, and a strong tier set

[alpine wraith]

i mean it is the same thing sometimes not many people really care about being the best in their class

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/omg-omg-omg-omg-omg-yes-omg-wow-wow-gif-13416777597053845559

[lucid jackal]

How can u be pessimistic on the outlook rn

[alpine wraith]

they kinda want to also be good overall

[warm marlin]

my literal worst nightmare is agreeing with guy icl

pls stop

[sacred yarrow]

love this (steals)

[lilac stag]

some of us actually want better game play vs flurry and one talent set

[lethal thorn]

belt is dead with the nerf right ?

[lucid jackal]

And some people like flurry gameplay

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[lilac stag]

yes outlaw players. Lol

[jaunty heath]

Outlaw players that have to play sub

[formal helm]

Those already have a spec?

[jaunty heath]

Ye

Pretty much

Hahahah

[lucid jackal]

Oh I'm sorry I forgot I need to pledge alliegence to one spec

I can't enjoy "rogue" I have to base my personality around the spec I main

[jaunty heath]

No you don’t? Who said that

[swift tinsel]

They came over to play with Dreadblades again

[alpine wraith]

i mean i have nothing against people that kinda like that but as you stay and just look at the corpses left behind that are just annoying

[lucid jackal]

I've played and enjoyed a lot of versions of sub idk

[lilac stag]

It’s just easier that way don’t ya know?

[alpine wraith]

like split dmg FW not having finisher talents

[lucid jackal]

This version is probs the best overall

[alpine wraith]

this vers is way worse than mop or wod

but it can be fun for sure

[lucid jackal]

At least Imo

[alpine wraith]

i didnt even like legion super a lot but it was ok

[lucid jackal]

I liked flat sub for awhile

[jaunty heath]

Theres just so many unnecessary things going on with sub, just because the outlook is <preferred rogue spec> doesn’t mean it’s great

[lucid jackal]

Sanctum sepulcur

[jaunty heath]

I do like current sub

[alpine wraith]

that can happen people liked sepulcher

i kinda despised it

[jaunty heath]

But there’s still a lot of things that could change for the better

[swift tinsel]

Sepulcher sub was just

[alpine wraith]

i dont mind current sub

[swift tinsel]

Eh

[lilac stag]

I loved it so much I rolled off rogue. lol

[alpine wraith]

but i just know too much that is wrong

to be happy

like it is unreal

[lucid jackal]

I don't mean this in a way of like, "never have critism of a spec" but if you play literally any spec for years, and years, you begin to notice glaring problems with it and its just going to happen

[formal helm]

That is also a thing, yes

But it not being addressed is the issue that people bring up the most

[lucid jackal]

Like ret paladin is cool rn, it's fun, but hammer of wrath is a nearly worthless button, and has been for like 3 tiers straight now

[jaunty heath]

I agree, I’ll be honest I’m just burned out from the tier already so my stance to anything is probably more negative than necessary

[lucid jackal]

And it's not getting fixed next patch either

[jaunty heath]

Once new tier releases takes get better

And I’m probably not the only one

[lucid jackal]

Warrior, the class that's about pressing execute, wants to press it as little as possible

[jaunty heath]

[warm marlin]

the mop gameplay where you can't press half your spells since you can't go behind a boss?

[alpine wraith]

my biggest gripe with sub

is that as a finisher spec

[lucid jackal]

Going multiple tiers of spacing out execute procs to extreme degrees

[alpine wraith]

you have same finishers almost as 20 years ago

[lilac stag]

Such a simple thing like single boom from Sectech would satiate the void for a number of sub diehards.

[alpine wraith]

i still cant believe i only have 2 finishers

to use

in st

[formal helm]

And they hit like a wet noodle most of the time

[alpine wraith]

apart from a cd

[lilac stag]

The third is BP. Be careful

[swift tinsel]

Guess how many talents specifically buff eviscerate

[alpine wraith]

0

[lucid jackal]

But yeah idk. I'm glad that sub is in an overall fun state to me, while it's "being ignored" unlike let's say, bfa where it was ignored, bad, and undertuned

[alpine wraith]

also 0 snd

[charred sandal]

class been playing almost the same since DF

[swift tinsel]

Shadowed Finishers is the closest we get

[alpine wraith]

rupture has 1

[swift tinsel]

Outside of Finality

[lucid jackal]

Like find weakness sucks, and is annoying, but like it kinda doesn't matter

[formal helm]

Pls don't mention it
You'll manifest another bp buff

[alpine wraith]

that is an issue yea

[swift tinsel]

It does bc of how it affects aoe

[alpine wraith]

FW is just annoying now

[lucid jackal]

Deathstalker sucks, but at least we don't end up playing it (for now)

[lilac stag]

The description of 75% of subs talents.

[alpine wraith]

and if you played when it was good

you get angry

[swift tinsel]

Make it a debuff during dance

[jaunty heath]

I feel like that’s the whole point FW doesn’t matter, just get rid of it

[alpine wraith]

like how they massacred it

[lucid jackal]

To me i really only care about "how fun is the gameplay" and subs gameplay rn is I feel peak

[swift tinsel]

It can fuck off otherwise if it’s not like Brand or Touch

[lucid jackal]

It probably could but eh

[swift tinsel]

Remove fw, make our damage shadow

Don’t need to worry about armor if it’s magic damage

[jaunty heath]

Stop splitting one damage in 3million things

[alpine wraith]

im more of a fan of just make storm and backstab not able to apply FW

[jaunty heath]

Our*

[alpine wraith]

and kill shadowed

[formal helm]

Dw, flurry will make it be affected by armor

[alpine wraith]

have finishers be phys

[lucid jackal]

I like that evis damage is shadow/physical

It's kinda cool

[swift tinsel]

This tilts me too

[alpine wraith]

it never made sense to have shadow things

[lilac stag]

Subs gameplay is worse than KSless outlaw, but better than assa. Still a good bit of room to improve upon the base gameplay imo. Also don’t see it happening so.

[swift tinsel]

Huh

We are shadow boys

It’s our thing

[lucid jackal]

If sub gets attention it'd be for midnight

Doubt it gets tweaks this patch

[alpine wraith]

the shadow thing was the sub artifact

the one they completely killed off

[lilac stag]

no reason to

[swift tinsel]

Yeah I expect no actual changes until then

[alpine wraith]

yea it is unlikely anything changes rn

[jaunty heath]

Ye no this expansion is pretty locked for sub

[formal helm]

Ye
I was happy with the tier and then I saw it's word for word same for both specs.
Sure, they share hero talent tree, but there's no way you couldn't think of a decent way to individualise it a bit more?

[alpine wraith]

but also i expect to once again report things in alpha

that dont get fixed on release

[lilac stag]

Just make everything shadow dmg. Adjust some talents to buff finishers. Get rid of Sectech clones. Tweak CDR.

[lucid jackal]

I've said it all expac but I'm glad rogue is in such a fun state for me personally that I'm not bothered too much by the lack of changes overall

Things can always be better, improved, get a full scale rework but sometimes rework suck xd

Like the Frost dk one looks a bit rough from what I've heard

[alpine wraith]

they are reworking shadow again first

[swift tinsel]

Idk to me there are under the hood changes that wouldn’t really affect gameplay

But would improve the spec health

[lilac stag]

or they don’t get completed. Who could that have happened to…

[swift tinsel]

Frost dk just needs iteration

[jaunty heath]

Man this expansion made me realize one thing, I went from shadowdust hater to missing shadowdust and I hate myself for it

[lucid jackal]

Ur getting banned

[formal helm]

I always loved it, ngl

[swift tinsel]

If they add frostscythe interactions where needed it massively improves

[alpine wraith]

dust was so cool

problem was the other cds

[lilac stag]

The CDs are still the issue. Was never dust

[alpine wraith]

they made it annoying

[lilac stag]

you all took the easy target. Like exsang for assa

[jaunty heath]

I didn’t hate the talent per se I hated how sub played back then

Prob should’ve used different wording

But that time is dust sub for me

[swift tinsel]

Two cooldowns with different cooldowns that feedback each other? Ofc a tool that synchs them will be great

Better remove

[lilac stag]

FRICTION

[swift tinsel]

Friction is me yeeting myself off a cliff and hitting rocks on the way down after giving up on making sense of this stuff

[alpine wraith]

friction is making MFD a choice talent with deeper

then saying oh no one uses this

and deleting it

or sepsis a choice node with inev

[keen dome]

shuriken tornado fires sepsis

[alpine wraith]

and just forgetting it exists

meanwhilse sbs got buffed 3 diff ways

to not be competely DoA

[lucid jackal]

Dust was 100% the problem lmao

[jaunty heath]

Listen all this discussion but all I want is my big boom to make bigger boom

[alpine wraith]

dust rewarded knowledge

[lucid jackal]

Sub would be the best raid spec by far every tier not close unless it was omega undertuned

[alpine wraith]

cant have that in an rpg

[lucid jackal]

Dust rewarded preplanning

And then modifying that preplanning based on pull timers, strats, nerfs

Absolute ass

[alpine wraith]

it was more interesting in dungeons than raid

[vale pine]

Disc belt changes - THIS CHANGE COMES WITH RESET!

Tl;dr: charged bold nerfed and some buffs to underperforming ones.
Simulations in the other pin are updated, i also attached the updated sims here.
Always use a simulation to find your best option.
If you want to sim it, use these overwrites:

override.spell_data=effect.1231848.coefficient=9.1675
override.spell_data=effect.1232881.coefficient=0.3424
override.spell_data=effect.1232886.coefficient=0.1505
override.spell_data=effect.1232963.coefficient=52.9531```
## `updated` __D.I.S.C Belt:__
- Best For Single Target: **Critical Chain (+2.7%)**
- Best For Dungeons:**Critical Chain or Static Charge  (+0.9%)**
🎫 **Sim:** [Single Target](<https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ezGKVHLCNPf7rwgZnNygRF>) | [Five Targets](<https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/mFNMyn5bXwrQfdAYZ26vsz>) | [Eight Targets](<https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/iH7sMTVYQn4zpLmeiN34wD>) | [Dungeon Slice](<https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/1GGdeqBKrzJsF6rQBJ4R9c>)

[alpine wraith]

raid was just if you wanted to min max to get extra casts of x

[vocal wolf]

Hated dust

[hazy breach]

Presumably we just go vers, but im too dumb to figure out how to do the overrides correctly

[vale pine]

dust was not a problemm

[vocal wolf]

I honestly said fuck it and played outlaw on smolderon

[vale pine]

people keep calling things a problem

like funnel is a problem

[vocal wolf]

I don't think it was, I just didn't enjoy it

[vale pine]

thats why shuriken combo can't exist

but now multiple specs have giga funnel

and it seems like not a problem

[swift tinsel]

friction

Yeah that inconsistency is frustrating

[jaunty heath]

Funnel is only a problem if the guy designing a fight doesn’t keep it in mind

[vale pine]

people inherently love to call things problems just because they disslike them

[jaunty heath]

So it’s on them

If funnel is a problem or not

[alpine wraith]

i mean this comes from the makers of lets cap aoe

then give surv and destro

more aoe

and funnel

and st

for everyone

[vale pine]

dust was not the problem too

[lucid jackal]

Dust was broken bro

[vale pine]

it was how complicated cooldown deisgn is

[lucid jackal]

It let u do anything u wanted to

It was a cheat code

[vale pine]

because cooldowns don't align

so it created this entire spreadsheet contest

[lucid jackal]

Highest burst spec in the game that can move its Cd's to any point in the encounter

[vale pine]

no it wasn't

just because something is good for progression

does not make it broken

[swift tinsel]

This was the fundamental thing dust fixed

Or compensated for

[formal helm]

ye

[swift tinsel]

To avoided the problem/broken/fix narrative

[void hound]

dust was lowkey broken by design but it was also iconic and gave sub a niche so i didnt mind it

[lucid jackal]

Bro it was broken for anybody in amidrasil

[vale pine]

because of tuning

[charred sandal]

given that u do tank dmg outside of CDs having them align on a frequent pace felt satisfying (at least in m+)

[vale pine]

look

its rly that easy

[lucid jackal]

Rogue was so absurdly broken on smolderon, on tindral, on fyrak

Half of the reason was the modular cooldowns

[vale pine]

look at how domiantn subtlety was in season 4

and its very easy to see that dust indeed was not the problem

[lucid jackal]

"oh tindral is a 2 minute fight? Oh perfect let's have flag/blades up for shield breaks and also add sets"

[formal helm]

healer dmg

[vale pine]

i mean waht you say is

[lucid jackal]

"oh smolderon is a 1 minute burn phase followed by 1:30s and then another 1? Perfect I can do that"

[vale pine]

any spec that has a higher agency to change cooldowns or talents for a fight

is inherently broken

[lucid jackal]

"oh fyrak I need shield damage, add set 1 and execute damage, let me do that too"

Correct

[vale pine]

if thats the case

why are you not worried about assassiantion in 11.2

[lucid jackal]

The highest burst spec in the game shouldn't be allowed to move Cd's that efficiently

[vale pine]

like its the same thing

[lucid jackal]

Because sin becoming a static 1:30 is different than sub being able to be literally anything it wants to be

[vale pine]

no its not

[lucid jackal]

Oh okay

[vale pine]

you had certain limitations with dust

on how you could align cooldowns

it was not complete dynamic

[lucid jackal]

In the context of a raid encounter it was borderline a cheat code

Wow specs broadly speaking don't let u be this modular and keep that much damage

[vale pine]

exactly

so why are you not on the fence about assassiantion

yet

[alpine wraith]

imagine being unique

[lucid jackal]

How can sin be modular

[vale pine]

it gets the cheat code

[lucid jackal]

How

[vale pine]

again dust was not as modular as you make it out to be

the main decision was to decide between a few options

[lucid jackal]

Let's say there's a burn phase a 1 minute, 2:15, and 4 minutes, can sin do that

[vale pine]

it is the same as being able to decide between 90 and 120 cooldowns

[alpine wraith]

if you didnt mind losing overall casts you could move more things around

but still

[vale pine]

you have 2 options to adjust for fight timings

[alpine wraith]

you still got snacked in dmg anyway

by another spec

with 50% less effort

[vale pine]

and on top of that can do the same as you can always independent of specs

just wait for cooldowns

[vale pine]

yes

thats a 2 minute cooldown alignment

2-4

it can do that

[alpine wraith]

otherwise you would have seen things like in garrosh or klaxxi or blackhand

where you got rogues

to do that one thing

[lucid jackal]

Notice how that's not what I asked

[charred sandal]

isnt having agency over the CDR of ur burst a common thing on others specs too? (like warrior) or hunter

[alpine wraith]

now think when was the last time you though

oh rogue has to do that one thing

[vale pine]

wdym

[lucid jackal]

Not to the degree that dust allowed you to

[vale pine]

like

[lucid jackal]

Dust, in the context of a raid encounter let u move Cd's effectively anywhere you wanted them to be, which is just not what any spec in the game has access too

[vale pine]

you can craft cooldown timings around 90 and 120 sec cooldowns

[lucid jackal]

Some could "hold bladestorm for add sets" or "delay wake so it lines up"

But sub could literally move its entire damage profile to anywhere in an encounter

[vale pine]

as long as you stick with these you essetially cover a lot of, if not most cooldowns bosses have

look at smolderon

1 min 30

perfect

[lucid jackal]

Well sub was better than perfect because most specs missed the first burn phase with their cds

[vale pine]

the only diffrence and the point you are trying to make is

you can't have your major cooldowns 2 times in a row

but shocker

you could not do that with dust

dust was good in shifting cooldowns around in a certain framework

the main diffrence is you could do so dynamically

[lucid jackal]

That's the issue! That's too fundamentally strong for the game

[vale pine]

instead of deciding before a fight

tho because almost all players did learn the seuence

there is in execution no diffrence

which in the end makes having dynamic cooldown design

the same

i can give you a clear example of something i mentioned in this discued

*discord

the fire boss was very time sensitive

yet the majority of logs did not play the more efficient cooldown strategy

why?

because it is rly hard to
#1 know the exact timing a boss dies at
#2 make a decidion a minute into the fight which decides your result at the end

having the option to switch between 90 and 120 is actually stronger

because it offloads all the mental work

[lucid jackal]

Okay

[vale pine]

so you just need to know which it is before a fight

[lucid jackal]

I just disagree that flipping a talent and saying "I'm a 2 minute class" and another saying "I'm a 1:30" is fundamentally different than sub being able to move its cooldowns to like, 5 different very strong applications on fyrak. This is like light years apart in difference

On fyrak there were like 5 checks and sub could solve for any your team specifically struggled with

[vale pine]

you rly try very hard to find specific examples

to make a generalized point

its too strong "in general" because of this ONE fight it could be rly good on

[jaunty heath]

This is so heavily overestimated, your raid consists of 20 people, Therese multiple specs that can pick different types of cds to solve one of these checks

Not like you solved all 5 of them, you still had to pick which one

[vale pine]

but like

isn't that execute on mugzee

is sin niche op now?

or funnel in mythic+?

[formal helm]

idk, it seems like you're picking one niche and just saying it's completely broken

[vale pine]

making an argument for a general strength of something is difficult when we only ever look at the absolute best case

[lucid jackal]

I'm not saying it's strong on one fight bro

[bleak night]

guy vs fuu is always my favorite show

[lucid jackal]

It was the same on nymue, it was the same on tindral it was the same on smolderon

[jaunty heath]

Feral had the choice between 1 or 2min that tier virtually just as good of a choice for any fight in that tier

[formal helm]

just seems like you're advocating for static cds compared to cdr in short, at least to me.
could be wrong

[jaunty heath]

And it was good, was it op tho?

[lucid jackal]

Fyrak had like 5? Or so hard checks u had to meet, sub could move its Cd's to solve any of them that your guild struggled with. No spec in wow can do this like dust sub could

It couldn't solve all 5

But it could be shield, then add set 1, or 2 or boss damage, or execute

It's like, no spec can do this

[jaunty heath]

Again, you play with 14 other dps

[maiden hamlet]

Imagine being unique

[jaunty heath]

It’s not unsolvable without sub having that nieche

[sacred yarrow]

whats the real problem here, admitting sin is going to be stronger and that sub was stronger?

[lucid jackal]

What

[lucid jackal]

I feel like Ur misunderstanding what I'm saying

[jaunty heath]

What would be broken is -> you can’t solve it without sub having that nieche

[vale pine]

exactly

[lucid jackal]

I'm not LMFAO

Here's what dust did, it let u move cooldowns on the highest burst spec in the game

Being able to do this is fundamentally too strong

[jaunty heath]

Like, if sin didn’t get cucked early on do you think it would’ve been a sub tier?. Genuine question

With how much damage it did

[vale pine]

why

[lucid jackal]

Yes

[vale pine]

what makes it completely broken

[lucid jackal]

Sub on last 3 being modular was absurd

[brittle plinth]

Is there a definitive belt mode to use now?

[vale pine]

like real talk

[lucid jackal]

Sub literally was the best spec in the entire game on smolderon, sin was nowhere close

Sub was better in tindral

[vale pine]

if we look at the raid tier

[formal helm]

think eleem said probably vers, but they have to check

[jaunty heath]

I don’t think ur right, liquid played sin on tindral even tho it was already fucked, if sub was that broken they would’ve known for sure right?

Or was it echo

[vale pine]

subtlety was op on smolderon because it was the only spec in the game with perfetc cd alignment

[jaunty heath]

One of those two

[vale pine]

which would not have changed with 90 sec cooldowns

if you look at logs

[lucid jackal]

They both had different strengths on the fight but sub was broadly speaking stringer

[vale pine]

people did only rly care about sub on smolderon

[jaunty heath]

Unnerfed sin in s3 would’ve been the spec for sure

[lucid jackal]

BUT THAT'S SHADOWDUST FAULT, IT COULD BE PERFECT FOR SMOLDERON

[vale pine]

so there was never a real world impact on any other fight outside of like

[lucid jackal]

WITHOUT DUST IT CANT DO THAT

[vale pine]

top 100 trying to minmax

and if you play top 20 or even 100

you kind of want to have the option to min/max

and you still do

like again sin on mugzee is the same example

its one fight you actually care about specs

[warm marlin]

part of sin's strength on mugzee is the caustic bug though

[vale pine]

going down repeatedly the same chain of arguments

[jaunty heath]

The longer the tier went the more specs got better at that boss than sub it’s funny looking over logs from that tier because I was shocked when I opened the page for top logs a tier after

I thought it’s only gonna be sub on there

Surprise

[warm marlin]

like cleaving an add through los is not exactly a regular sin niche

[vale pine]

sin is now op, and execute is "FUCKING STUPID"

[jaunty heath]

It’s not

[vale pine]

i can now go on and go with

oh wait

funnel was op last tier too

or execute

and it absolutely was

[lucid jackal]

Why was no other 1:30 spec in the game op on smolderon? Why was it only sub rogue?

[swift tinsel]

Fuu talked in all caps, screenshotting

[vale pine]

so now i bring more examples and create the exact same argument

[jaunty heath]

?

[left ledge]

Because sub rogue

[vale pine]

and we now decided sin execute needs to be removed asap because it the most op thing in the game

[left ledge]

Was the only one

With arcane mage

[vale pine]

https://tenor.com/view/rpx_syria-mic-drop-gif-19149907

[charred sandal]

i dont understand blaming encounter design to a class niche, the class being overpowered for a certain encounter thus encouraging its use has been a thing since ever

[left ledge]

There wasn’t any other 1:30 spec

Lmao

[vale pine]

exactly

[left ledge]

The 1:30 pandemic started in tww

Also bm hunter was better than sub rogue on smolderon

[mental flume]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lucid jackal]

The niche of shadowdust was that you were the best progression spec in the game not close

This isn't a healthy niche

[sacred yarrow]

what I find odd is that this was last expansion, its gone, why fight about it

[warm marlin]

?

[left ledge]

The reason dust was removed wasn’t that it was op

It was that it was too hard to get into

[vale pine]

exraggerating a point and making it sound like something is more of a problem

is actually the main problem

[lucid jackal]

Dust was removed for being too complicated yes

[jaunty heath]

Ended up being tuning

[lucid jackal]

But also, it was fucking broken

[jaunty heath]

Not timing reliant

[warm marlin]

in prepatch bro

[lucid jackal]

Is that fated or..

Or prepatch or..

[warm marlin]

like tww prepatch

[left ledge]

If you want to exclusively look at prog

Sub rogue was the only 1:30 spec

[vale pine]

^

[left ledge]

There literally wasn’t another one

[lucid jackal]

Smolderon burn phases weren't static 1:30

[left ledge]

Arcane mage was too

[vale pine]

turns out

[left ledge]

They weren’t 2 either

So 2 couldn’t do it

2 mins had to hold

[vale pine]

having a fight with a very specific timer

makes the spec with this specific timer good

shocker

we moving in cycles tho

[left ledge]

If smolderon phases happened every 1:50-2:15 sub rogue would’ve been just ok on that fight

[formal helm]

idk, we could use the same logic and say that sub's completely broken now bc it has burst for last boss in rookery

idk why are we even doing this?

[lucid jackal]

No you can't

You can only use this logic if your brain is pouring out of your eara

Having burst, and being able to hold damage for a burn phase isn't the problem

[left ledge]

Dust allowed versatility at the cost of complexity

It wasn’t broken

[vale pine]

^

[left ledge]

It fit the niche

It was removed for being overly complex

Which is fair

Can’t expect new to sub players to just pick dust up

[vale pine]

okay, lets word dust diffrent

"you are able to change your 120 minute cooldowns to 90 sec ones"

looking at it like this

is it that diffrent to having a toggler between the two?

[lucid jackal]

The problem with dust is that for any encounter based on timers (every fight on later bosses) being able to move Cd's is too effective

[left ledge]

I mean that is pretty different than dust tbf

[lucid jackal]

Ofc it is

[left ledge]

Dust was on a separate 2 charge 2 min cd

[lucid jackal]

Idk why fuu is being obtuse

[left ledge]

That allowed any ability to be reduced by 30 sec

[vale pine]

dust reduces your cooldowns by 30 sec every 2 minutes, thats essentially making a 120 cooldown 90 sec ^^

[left ledge]

And we played our dances, sod, and sectec around that too

I know for people used to sub

All that mattered was the big cds

The rest came naturally

[lucid jackal]

Essentially is doing a lot of heavy lifting when fyrak, tindral and smolderon all allowed you be extremely effective and breaking open encounters

[frigid hill]

The difference is when you double dust immediately

[vale pine]

well yes

[frigid hill]

Makes it more flexible

[vale pine]

but you would not be able to reduce your cooldown later

[charred sandal]

fuck having complexity and skill expression on the "technical/hard" rogue spec

[vale pine]

you are limited by vanish

[left ledge]

I just don’t see what’s wrong with this though

It’s not exactly easy to pull off

[vale pine]

which means you could only reduce your cooldowns by 30 sec once every 2 minutes

[shy ermine]

or when you flag on its own and then pull flag to blades

it's totally different

[left ledge]

And dust had a huge punishment for fucking up

[vale pine]

this is why i mentioned in the beginning of the conversation

[lucid jackal]

My problem with it is that it's fundamentally too strong to progression raiding.

[shrewd lantern]

I miss when flag actually did damage

[vale pine]

that there is a certain framework you could work around

[warm marlin]

if you strictly use a charge based ability on cd ya

[shrewd lantern]

nowadays you can bake flag into shb

[left ledge]

Yeah if you’re already good at sub rogue

[frigid hill]

Right, so it averages out to the same in the long run, but guys point (I think) is the flexibility offered to have it sooner than just straight every 90 seconds is the strength

[shrewd lantern]

and no one would care

[swift tinsel]

Lashing scars please

[vale pine]

you had 2 charges, this allowed it to be more dynamic

[left ledge]

Don’t forget flag and blades were diff cds

[vale pine]

but without the 2nd charge, you can't rly do much more

[lucid jackal]

As somebody who is on the bleeding edge it's just too good for prog. Yeah it's skill, yeah it's a niche, whatever. I'm telling u as somebody with a whole lot of experience with high end progression raiding it's just such an absurd niche to have

[left ledge]

And there was desync you had to deal with

[shrewd lantern]

yep

but nowadays it feels pointless

for them to be seperate buttons

[lucid jackal]

It's like if your niche as a spec was "you deal 25% more damage to bosses"

[shy ermine]

people forget that because of how good transmitter was

[vale pine]

again guy

[left ledge]

I don’t think it was absurd I think the raid just fit the design thanks to subs new burst profile and damage amp timings

[lucid jackal]

It's like okay yeah it's a niche, yeah it's specific yeah it's cool Ig but like, it's so above board

[shy ermine]

on longer fights flag and blades weren't married with dust

[vale pine]

do you think assassiantion should not have execute or funnel

both are niches which on the bleeding edge can decide your spec choice

and make you op on a speicfic fight

its not too diffrent

[lucid jackal]

https://tenor.com/view/ishowspeed-speed-trying-to-not-laugh-speed-holding-laugh-speed-laughing-speed-laugh-gif-242565803459391828

[jaunty heath]

I mean, did you consider anything else on broodtwister besides sin?

Did sin absolutely buttfuck this boss?

[left ledge]

He’s trying to say dust would make sub able to adapt to any fight not just amirdrassil ones

[jaunty heath]

In boss damage?

[formal helm]

yeah I get that

[left ledge]

I don’t think that is necessarily true but we also don’t have the data

[lucid jackal]

Was considering outlaw but sin was alright. Sins boss damage wasn't that good in guilds who were stacking fury warriors and Frost dks

[vale pine]

yes, but turns out if you look at many tiers, it did not matter

[shrewd lantern]

ngl imagine if current aldrachi reacer havoc existed in s1

[vale pine]

which is a good point

[lucid jackal]

This is more or less my point.

[shrewd lantern]

wounded quarry is a superior version of sin’s singular focus

[formal helm]

it could with some time managing and planning, but even then, you do kind of still have strict-ish criteria when working around dust, no?

if anything the 2 min charge

[lucid jackal]

No

Firstly being hard to plan and play isn't a downside, when you are good at the game you don't fuck up and it'll just work

U might fuck up on a pull or two when learning but u aren't fucking up dust timings on pull 280 of fyrak

[left ledge]

I do think dust in the right hands was very strong, but I again don’t see the problem given its requirements to optimize and play properly, at the end of the day tuning is still what makes or breaks a spec

[lucid jackal]

That's just not how the game works at a high level

[warm marlin]

I mean you can look at any fight in the current tier and see that dance's flexibility as a charge based ability allows sub to move its damage around which is a major strength, you are only casting it straight on cd on stuff like sprocket. being able to move cds like that is very strong

[formal helm]

I agree with this

[jaunty heath]

All it does this raid is make you have higher number

[lucid jackal]

Sub on prog being able to move sod/dance was strong absolutely. Nothing game breaking but just nice

[lucid jackal]

This is so painfully untrue

[warm marlin]

dancing every reel assistant on prog?

[lucid jackal]

Killing reel assistants isn't "padding overall" on prog

[warm marlin]

i was top melee by a mile

on reel assistant damage

[jaunty heath]

Sure I’ll give you that I forgot about oab

[left ledge]

Sure on pull 200 whatever you’re not messing up dust timings but at that point you basically are just another spec doing a certain job

[lucid jackal]

You can say "nuh uh" but to me subs niche of "I can do the highest burst damage of any spec and I can probably adjust my Cd's in a way that doesn't fuck up my overall and also contribute an insane amount to any hard part of the encounter" is a niche that is just way too strong for a spec to have

[left ledge]

Sub was just able to make up for other shortcomings

[warm marlin]

imagine gallywix adds actually mattered and sub could flag every set and double dance others

like you can right now

[jaunty heath]

Well they didn’t

[vale pine]

i am with guy

[jaunty heath]

If execute was a huge factor on gally sin would be the spec, you can’t just go and say what if

[vale pine]

having the dynamic to change your cooldown aligmnemnt is fucking op

so please rework the sin tier set

😛

[vocal wolf]

LMAO

[formal helm]

guy's gonna have a meltdown

[shy ermine]

it's so weird that you don't get what he's trying to say

[vale pine]

can't have the dust opness again in a other rogue spec

[charred sandal]

u cant remove its skill component on the argument bcuz it should be powerful by design if its that complex.... why would u have something complex be shit

[shy ermine]

do we still have the stealthi dust spreadsheets?

[warm marlin]

sub still beats sin on some execute timings

not that simple

[vale pine]

he rly made it clear how gamebreaking it is, so lets riot on social media to get this change

[formal helm]

ye, idk why would you not reward being exceptional / knowing what you're doing?

[shy ermine]

with actual decision based cd usage depending on where you want it in the fight?

[formal helm]

at least it seems that way to me

[vale pine]

(i am joking, please don't)

[shy ermine]

with raw flags

[left ledge]

Yeah I’m not sure why mastery over a difficult talent shouldn’t reward you

The reward is flexibility

[formal helm]

yes

[vale pine]

sub has this problem

[left ledge]

And you fucking up is literally GG

[vale pine]

that if you fuck up you do negative damage

[shy ermine]

you're well within your rights to not think it's overpowered, but likening it to flat cdr is crazy

[lucid jackal]

Execute doesn't matter on gally tho....

[vale pine]

it still is tuned like it would not lose damage from mistakes

[native zodiac]

ye but so did dust not matter on a lot of fights besides smold

[jaunty heath]

Read 2 messages above maybe

[lucid jackal]

It did tho

[jaunty heath]

He literally said „if x mattered on gally“

[lucid jackal]

What is tindral what is fyrak

[native zodiac]

what did it matter on tindral for

[jaunty heath]

I answered with that and said you can’t just go and say IF

[native zodiac]

shield dmg? assa had perfect timings for that too

[pliant topaz]

because this is wow. wow isnt a game that rewards mastery over anything. youre not expected to be tuned higher if your spec is harder. Its just not that kind of game.

[lucid jackal]

Misread

[vale pine]

hot take

one of the reasons sub was good on tindral was

having 2 vanish charges

[left ledge]

That wasn’t about tuning

[vale pine]

same on queen

[left ledge]

That’s why I said flexibility

[native zodiac]

tindral and fyrakk was literally a 50 50 between sub or assa, no spec had a clear advantage

even at wr 50

[vale pine]

now sub is the only spec which completely skips the 2nd charge always

soo

[lucid jackal]

Sub was more modular and could problem solve better than sin

[left ledge]

Simple specs by virtue are not very flexible

That’s why they’re simple

[jaunty heath]

Now imagine they didn’t nerf sin by a shitton early on

[vale pine]

and why is that bad

[lucid jackal]

U could just play sin, I just played sin for our kill, sub let you solve problems

[vale pine]

like look at talents

[pliant topaz]

same concept. specs are supposed to do similar damage, and should have similar throughput. (utility is for fun and mages and druids and shaman get infinite and rest can go fuck themselves - but throughput is homogonized)

[vale pine]

sin is at least a dev year infront of sub in talent development

is that bad?

[pliant topaz]

u acnt get more throughput flexibility for example, that gives you a huge edge over others

just not that kinda game

[left ledge]

They can’t really choose that without you know

Deleting talents like dust

[vale pine]

why does everything needs to be equal, and having niches, benefits or trade offs is seen as negative

[left ledge]

If you add a complex talent like dust

[pliant topaz]

yeah thats why they deleted dust

it was too strong in right situations

and too hard

[lucid jackal]

I've said 401 times now. The niche that dust offered is fundamentally too strong of a niche

[pliant topaz]

so they removed it

[left ledge]

Yeah

[lucid jackal]

It's like subs niche on zuul lol

[pliant topaz]

all specs must be able to be plauyed at 80% efficiency by a monkey with no monitor

and they should do similar throughput

[lucid jackal]

"bring in a wq geared sub rogue and it was the best spec in the fight"

[pliant topaz]

so bye bye any uniqueness

unless youre a mage

[vale pine]

the main reason for the removal was the spreadsheet requirement, not strength

[keen dome]

Zul mentioned?! Trauma rising..

[pliant topaz]

or a druid

or a shaman

[formal helm]

idk, it became a thing at some point that everyoen needs equal amounts of dps, utility and everything

and it just becomes this...idk. homogenised mess?

[shy ermine]

doesn't the spreadsheet 'requirement' directly detract from the argument that it was the same as flat cdr?

[lucid jackal]

It wasn't the same as flat cdr

It was much better

[shy ermine]

yeah exactly

[lucid jackal]

Flat cdr doesn't let u move shit

[shy ermine]

so why are people comparing it to fatebound assa tier

it's completely different

[lucid jackal]

Because people love obfuscation

[vocal wolf]

https://tenor.com/view/vietnam-flashback-traumatized-cat-gif-7852054576948114551

[left ledge]

Sad that wow WASNT this kind of game before though

[pliant topaz]

well u cant say that. guys gonna have a mental breakdown. but also if you say that, it means that the devs are clueless and horrible! because the reason u needed the spreadsheet was 50% because flag and blades were not synced, and vanish wasnt synced. and just idk, syncing those woulda removed the spreadhseet. but u cant say that though. shhhhh

[bleak night]

inb4 cancel aura lucky coin to swap between 90s and 120s cd mid fight

[vocal wolf]

Imagine

[swift tinsel]

Unless it’s like dh gaze and you can’t cancel it lol

[runic trail]

just waiting on the tier set for sin that randomly procs exsanguinate. Do it blizz.

[bleak night]

jump off platform to reset to 2m cd

[swift tinsel]

Based

Reserve 1 brez

[formal helm]

modern problems require modern solutions.

[vocal wolf]

Rogue Soulstone tier

[swift tinsel]

Pay for it instead of PI

[pliant topaz]

the idea of it being tha tkinda game is what brought me in, then once i realized its just a game design is moving towards being designed for 2 year olds with learning disability I left

[vale pine]

Let me explain.
Basically, i get your point. If somehting is diffrent, it can't be the same.
Like a apple and a pear are not the same.
But if you argue that you eat them the same way, its not a bad argument.

[lucid jackal]

I've said like 10 times that dust was removed for complexity not power

[pliant topaz]

yeah but its complexity wasnt a real thing

[lucid jackal]

However it also happened to be really op

[pliant topaz]

it was a forced complexity

by devs

who refusd

to sync cds

so u had to bend backwaqrds to make it fit

[formal helm]

it just actively discourages creative problem solving more and more
be it mdi or this

[charred sandal]

so real, i despise the game dev direction of dumbing things down to appeal to a population of players who don't have the attention spam or drive to play a class to at least its minimum potential

[lucid jackal]

I like the pretending that u guys were problem solving and not just saying "hey stealthi do u have updated timers for the nerfs"

[left ledge]

I haven’t watched mdi since shadowlands when one of the casters was hyping up a sub rogue popping shadow blades

(In aoe)

[pliant topaz]

but I did do that. I spent so much time staying up with scana cooking timers for fyrak before a spreadsheet existed. I did the same thing during tww season 1 with exile during rwf. that was fun! i did that...

[vale pine]

my point earlier was, you essentially play a encounter the same way always.
Like dust was palyed the exact same on all encounters of the first 2 raids with very little diffrence.
The diffrence was in the specific raid by itself, it had multiple encounters with very specific encounter timings.

Yet when we inspect most of the fights, you still palyed 2 diffrent cooldown sequences.
This is fundermentally not diffrent from having diffrent cooldown timings, as thats exactly the result of it.
You have with 90 vs. 120 sec 2 sequences of where your damage is just like you had with dust, with some very niche exceptions.

[formal helm]

I'm not saying I did any problem solving, I'm saying that this trend of development discourages it

[shy ermine]

You ate them the same way for one tier only because of how strong transmitter was, it was better to have more flag casts than blades casts without a trinket that gave you 40% extra main stat every 90 seconds

[vale pine]

this is also why i keep referencing diffrent niches and fights they are good on from other classes/specs

[lilac stag]

Oxi was in here as well and conversations were had

[iron tundra]

sub in mdi next season ( 💯 )😎

[lucid jackal]

You are exceptional in this aspect, are you not? 99% of people saying "dust rewarding complex thinking" weren't doing the thinking

They were asking for the answers

[pliant topaz]

fair enough

[lucid jackal]

I genuinely do mean that it is unfortunate that a fun puzzle to solve has been removed for people like you

[lilac stag]

welcome to a class discord. Give me answers. Give them now.

[left ledge]

As the person who got dust gutted in shadowlands

I remove myself from the 99%

[slate marlin]

Dh getting better void than sub 😦

[lilac stag]

people can’t be arsed to read pins let alone a guide

[swift tinsel]

And then get titled when you tell them to check pins

[pliant topaz]

finding unique puzzles to solve with your spec is kinda the most fun part of wow. like pxb did in shadowlands, like dust in df. i feel like theres really not much left to the spec at this point. it feels so bare bone

[lilac stag]

so just dumb down the whole fucking game to 1 button

rip dust

[pliant topaz]

rip pxb

[left ledge]

Yeah I miss that aspect

[pliant topaz]

i miss him

[left ledge]

Shadowlands was big for me on rogue too

My gloom one shots and dust prepulls