subtlety

[swift tinsel]

And now Voodoo in fel hammer pinned a purple meta icon from wago tools

Saying it’s all confirmed

So the keyboard droolers over there are convinced

[keen dome]

Haha

I think Shaman Tank is more likely because at least they have more than two hero talents.

[haughty mural]

Really ?

[keen dome]

With DH you'd have this awkward situation. And then again Purple Vengance or Green Vengance.

[short radish]

well shaman was initially designed to be able to tank i'm told

they had some threat generator thing

[swift tinsel]

It was

Rockbiter had threat modifiers and they had shield talent

And earth shock had increased threat modifier

So the foundation was there

[runic trail]

And earth shock did a tonne yeah

[swift tinsel]

Then SoD

Made a literal tank spec

[keen dome]

Ye

[runic trail]

I did some low level tanking on my shaman in classic

[swift tinsel]

Which was actually pretty nice

[keen dome]

Also Shaman tank NPC< etc.

There's absolutely room for it and a mail tank would be cool

[runic trail]

It worked until level 30 or so

Then fell off a bit

[keen dome]

Whereas a third melee DH spec is just ???. If it was clearly ranged I'd be going "yeah sure" or a suppot.

The only reason I'm not 100% certain they won't do it is we're getting Legion Remix and the timing would be interesting.

[swift tinsel]

Yeah I think the melee play space is a bit too crowded for another spec

[keen dome]

But I think it's more likely we get Void Elf DH's

Maybe also uh, nightfallen or w/e they're called

the purple wine elves

[hollow spear]

107 sub logs on sprocket, sub is dedge

[haughty mural]

Sorry I did let you down

[tribal blade]

might be 108 sub logs in 2 weeks time

after my guild's break week

because sin kill times suck now

so sub time

[haughty mural]

109 if I manage to pug him this week

[tribal blade]

daaamn is locken puggable?

i suppose it's a lot easier with turbo boost and raid buff

[hollow spear]

if my guild kills it in less than 5 tries, it should be

[tribal blade]

since you completely skip the final phase

[runic trail]

Probably killable before second knockback now

[hollow spear]

yeah

[tribal blade]

yup

[plucky parrot]

honestly the hardest part about that fight is ensuring your bomb assignment WAs work

[swift tinsel]

Meanwhile my guild prog ended yesterday without being able to kill it after 10 hours of prog

[haughty mural]

I will see

[hollow spear]

For real?

[short radish]

on sprocket?

[swift tinsel]

Yeah, five weeks of two hours of just sprocket prog

[short radish]

bro

[keen dome]

[hollow spear]

What happened

[swift tinsel]

Yep

[short radish]

change guilds

[tribal blade]

so yeah if you have monkeys on your raid team

locken is a hard boss

[swift tinsel]

Idk I stopped raiding before then

[tribal blade]

because a LOT of personal responsibility

1 person can very easily kill everyone

[keen dome]

Personal responbility bosses are always really funny

[swift tinsel]

The guild isn’t the most mechanically sound

[keen dome]

Because you immediately find out who isn't focusing

[swift tinsel]

Which is why I meme on them for pushing ilvl over actually learning to handle mechanics

[tribal blade]

yeah i had to suffer through a lot of people walking into bombs

not being able to read the WAs

not knowing blue from red

[swift tinsel]

Because then they get walled hard when fights like that pop up

[short radish]

soak bomb when it says soak bomb

mission difficulty: 9/10

[tribal blade]

lol it really is

i didn't miss a single bomb the entire of prog

[short radish]

i dont fucking why that was so hard for some people

[keen dome]

I've been helping some guilds kill Gally for AotC and I saw a guy die to the lightning circle in P3 for like, four pulls and then go "what's killing me"

[short radish]

to realise that the countdown resets itself at 2/4 seconds

[swift tinsel]

It happened with Hungering Destroyer and that drove a third of the guild to quit

[tribal blade]

the only time i messed up a bomb soak was because both the locks took forever to get theirs and i was last

[short radish]

if the thing is late

[runic trail]

Because we have a ritual 30 minutes before raid of eating glue

[tribal blade]

and i had like 0.1s to get mine

[keen dome]

that's the worst

That's not your failure at all though

[short radish]

but absolute fucking monkeys see 6 second countdown then just close their eyes or something and walk over it at 6 seconds

[runic trail]

We had 200 pulls on sprocket

[tribal blade]

i'm usually bad at that kind of stuff, but the locken bombs were hella chill with the WAs

[swift tinsel]

Had people inting rik prog bc ranged were aoeing the melee stack to pad instead of killing the ranged one

[short radish]

yeah

[tribal blade]

you just see your assignment, look at the map to see the order

then identify your marker

and easy peasy

[haughty mural]

My raid disbanded this Tier again so i am only pugging atm

[swift tinsel]

So melee had to kill ranged barrels

[runic trail]

We had a warrior do less barrel damage than a healer one pull

[haughty mural]

[short radish]

with the way the WA is set up, you always get the sameish one every time as well

[tribal blade]

ranged aren't people

[tribal blade]

yeah it's very easy

[swift tinsel]

Tank positioning made barrel cleave annoying, they’d pull him away and he ran at mach speed

[short radish]

fuck ranged

[haughty mural]

„My darkglare will get fucked if I switch to range barrels“

[runic trail]

This tier made me distrust warlocks, because they sit there formulating the most complicated portal transit network known to man in order to avoid walking 5 steps to the left

[keen dome]

Hahha

[short radish]

Mission: Don't stand on melee on rik
Difficulty: Impossible

[swift tinsel]

Yuuuuup

[tribal blade]

i swear to god, ranged are some of the most coddled players of all time, ESPECIALLY in keys

[haughty mural]

I’ve heard it all this tier

[tribal blade]

this season is crazy different between melee and ranged

[keen dome]

Ranged love sitting at max ranged doing their own thing except when sitting at max ranged is the thing to do. In that circumstance, they're now melee.

[tribal blade]

being melee is like dodging the missiles being fired between gaza and israel

[haughty mural]

„I need to cleave of rik as arcane mage sorry“

[tribal blade]

that's actually a fair point tbh haha

[swift tinsel]

We have maybe two or three ranged players that I’d say are reliable but the others are just

[short radish]

Mission: Pull the boss at 0 seconds
Difficulty: Impossible

[tribal blade]

any other spec nah

maybe fire mage too

[swift tinsel]

[keen dome]

These people!!! THE WORST.

[haughty mural]

Yea one barrage or arcane blast into barrels would be too much

[tribal blade]

fair point

[swift tinsel]

Omg our tanks are so paranoid about getting threat on pull it’s literally any moment between 2 and 0 seconds left on pull timer

[haughty mural]

This mage plus the warlock killed me this tier the 2 best excuses right there

[short radish]

the first hit of every boss needs to be a ranged hit

so it kills the stupid fucking idiots that cast 3 seconds before pull

[tribal blade]

that got fixed real quick on gally

[swift tinsel]

I made a joke about tanks pulling early the other day and our rl was like “it’s funny you think it’s the tanks doing it” so I screenshot almost a dozen logs showing the tank as the first hit

Like dude

I see his giant cow ass charging in

[keen dome]

Every raid boss should work like Fyrakk, prove me wrong.

[runic trail]

Gally is beating that out of people for us

But court prog last season we had like a fucking hour of the boss being pulled at 3-5 seconds

[hollow spear]

Kinda ridiculous

How do you even do that

[runic trail]

I dunno. Eleshams were jumpy apparently

[hollow spear]

if you have a 3 second cast, just start it at 2.5 or so on the pulltimer

[runic trail]

And we had 4 of the fuckers

[hollow spear]

4?

dang

[short radish]

tell that to druids and their fucking travel times

i hate boomkins

[hollow spear]

yeah, they're actually chickens irl

[runic trail]

Our roster was super scuffed. We didn't have a warrior for last 3 bosses

[fallow nimbus]

Also that prepull lust rendering your goon squad trinket useless

[hollow spear]

my last guild didn't have a warrior or monk

pepega

[tribal blade]

TRUUUUEEEEE

[hollow spear]

I'll never understand prepull lusting

[tribal blade]

i think boomy might take 2nd place to aug for my most hated M+ specs of all time

[hollow spear]

there's so many fotm boomies

doing tank dps in keys

[tribal blade]

yeah it's annoying

[hollow spear]

"tank is not pulling around me"

[runic trail]

Fotm boomies doing nothing to boss 1 DFC

[hollow spear]

don't get me started on that one

[tribal blade]

the fact that boomys single handedly enable you to do things otherwise not possible in every key

is stupid

[haughty mural]

The biggest menace are demo locks in keys

Skips are impossible

With some of them

[runic trail]

Those damn imps

[tribal blade]

i haven't seen a single demo lock

[runic trail]

We had 3 on Mugzee prog

So, you've not seen any cos we've been hoarding them all

[tribal blade]

damn

[haughty mural]

They are more than us

They tripple sub at sprocket

Iirc

[keen dome]

I did a Cindermead week 1 with a Demo lock who blasted, and we almost timed it on +10 but there was an impcident before the third boss.

It's hilarious what they can pull

[runic trail]

Jumping over the little barrier?

[keen dome]

YEP

We all jumped. There was a "..no" in chat and we looked behind us as like, 40 imps just jogged through every trash mob down to us

[runic trail]

End of mechagon skip does the same

[keen dome]

The group found it very funny, 'cos we were doing it for vault

[runic trail]

Can pull it off mostly flawlessly, then a lone imp just strolls through

[keen dome]

Plus I had realized earlier that we were all stuck in there and I could subject everybody to bee puns the entire run so it fit the mood.

[void hound]

sprocket the most annoying boss to parse on, its pure RNG 😭

[tribal blade]

i can't BEElieve that happened to you

[runic trail]

On our kill pull I got put on a mine in fucking Narnia

[void hound]

that sucks

[hollow spear]

78% FW uptime on sprocket

urgh

[haughty mural]

Lovely backstab design

[swift tinsel]

Imps should hide in your pockets out of combat

But make it a visual

[keen dome]

Agreed

Just 40 imps clinging to you

[runic trail]

Demo locks should race change to just be 10 imps in a trenchcoat

[swift tinsel]

You can’t tell me they aren’t 10 imps in a trench coat already

Have you talked to one in disc before

[runic trail]

Real

[swift tinsel]

Literal menaces most of the time

[runic trail]

Mate our raid team had 3 at one point

There were so many imps

They were fucking EVERYWHERE

[swift tinsel]

Yikes did you guys lose a bet or what

[runic trail]

Our roster is in a state of perma-scuffed. We had 4 eleshams last season

[swift tinsel]

[shrewd lantern]

i feel scuffed rosters have

ret paladins usually

[swift tinsel]

Idk if I’ve ever seen two, let alone four

We had two rets for most of this season

[shrewd lantern]

two too many*

[swift tinsel]

Two ww, two hunters, two dps and two tank warriors, two mages,

Noah’s ark lookin ahhh

[shrewd lantern]

two tank warriors

[swift tinsel]

Yeah we originally had a bear but they had to quit early on and had really spotty attendance

[shrewd lantern]

i feel pwar in raid is like

its either underwhelming or

theres one boss shield block does super well against

[swift tinsel]

They were mostly fine, only real gripes were they’d leap away and the boss would Usain Bolt 30 yards

[shrewd lantern]

like they basically dont get impacted

by ego check on gally

[swift tinsel]

There was some bug apparently early on where one of his other mechanics was just ignoring our bear tank and was one-shotting one of the pwarrs

The stacking one idr the name I don’t pay attention to tank stuff lol

[iron roost]

some says if you have more crit there is a chance that your charged bolts crit more is that even true ?

[tribal blade]

i assume so, haven't looked into it at all

i also assume it's affected by vers

[iron roost]

electric current feels safer pick for us

since charged bolts ninja pulling mobs left and righ

[tribal blade]

in M+ yes, bolts is giga troll

[iron roost]

I'm using Oathsworn's on wep's since versa sims higher than main stat for me its kinda good for m+

[tribal blade]

yeah could be the move

i'd consider the same thing, but i swap between sub and sin

so radiant power is the best all round

[iron roost]

just get 2 set of weps

have 2x rick weps and have 2x oab weps

[remote shuttle]

Yup buddies, tested yesterday versa mast and crit

Mastery very good

Crit uptime not so good like 20% on my tests

Versa idk.. Goes down really fast... Also need to proc, not cycling as mastery does

I mean, in m+

[tribal blade]

mm yeah x2 vers equal to radiant power in dslice as sin (which means it'll be even better for sub), which additionally comes along with DR, easy

[tribal blade]

yeah everyone is just running mast now

[remote shuttle]

Ye... Still vers 7k sounds huge for def... But more rng on sub right now? Idk, there's a lot already

Guess u were talking about weapon enchants atm, which one u run as sub as pref Proph? I mean m+

I stay with radiantx2

For main stat

[tribal blade]

i was just running x2 radiant power

but seems like vers is on par

after sims

so i'm swapping all my enchants to vers

[remote shuttle]

Ah

What's ur versa basic?

[tribal blade]

might as well get the additional benefit of DR

[remote shuttle]

Im on 27% like 20k

[tribal blade]

uh as sin it's somewhere around 20ish%

sorry as sub

[remote shuttle]

Ah ok

[haughty mural]

Just stack mastery like hacha

[tribal blade]

my mast is very high, like 21k as sub

[haughty mural]

[remote shuttle]

Maybe with more versa like i have radiant still better, need to sim

[remote shuttle]

Ye same

22k

[tribal blade]

i think taking a small dmg loss is worth getting more DR from vers

i did that for my sin set

[remote shuttle]

Y sure, that's why i gi around with 27% vers

[tribal blade]

i have 15% vers unbuffed in my sin M+ set, which is relatively high

[remote shuttle]

As i met a dudu i go straight softcapped 30%

Ye

Sins are like 5% vers more or less

[tribal blade]

yeah, but the dmg difference is negligible

it's not that crazy

[remote shuttle]

Smart choice

[tribal blade]

i remember back during... S2 of DF i think

i got flamed a lot in here for saying i was statting more vers for DR instead of going full crit/mast as sub

[remote shuttle]

Just to clarify is like 18k (24/25%) + versa flask

U mean sin now?

[tribal blade]

nah during S2 of DF sub was going full crit+mast

esp for keys

[remote shuttle]

Aaah ok

I landed wow on df s3 so idk

So for me was always mast vers

[tribal blade]

sub had access to this talent from sin in the class tree

which was fucking insane for sub

massive impact

[remote shuttle]

(played couple months on warmane tbc in 2k16 then other games till landing on retail df s3)

[remote shuttle]

J fkn C

Sounds huge

[tribal blade]

it was big

[remote shuttle]

Ye

[tribal blade]

made sub have 0 cdr issues

0 energy issues

you could fill every gcd easily

we also ran 2/2 vigor and tea at that time

so infinite energy

[remote shuttle]

Ye i see... Pvp i use tea, zero energy issues

[left ledge]

Yup and we pressed gloomblade for 90% of every st pull

And in aoe we pressed storm bp on repeat forever

[tribal blade]

lol yeah we had a stupid amount of dmg in gloomblade

[remote shuttle]

Can imagine tea+ free cp...

[left ledge]

One of the most boring iterations sadly

[tribal blade]

that was when sub was press on cd

kinda like outlaw

you jsut pressed blades on cd

dance on cd

symbols on cd

[remote shuttle]

Not planning at all?

[tribal blade]

nah

[left ledge]

Plan what

[tribal blade]

a little, but not really

[remote shuttle]

Mmmh k i like the actual planning thing

[left ledge]

You only really had flag and a big part of your damage came AFTER your cooldowns

[remote shuttle]

Kinda like hate, but mostly like

[haughty mural]

You didn’t even have to play with flag

And blades did not much

[left ledge]

Gloomy times

Literally

[tribal blade]

yeah we played DB at that time

since DB had the double dipping bug too

probably the "hardest" part of that rotation was dance gave you 6 secs of symbols from the tier set

and then pressing actual symbols to properly pandemic the existing one

and min maxing your tea around after dance so you could spam gloomblade with max lingering stacks

that was about the rotation

[left ledge]

No the hardest part was proccing Sophic devotion

[remote shuttle]

Got it

[tribal blade]

i actually remember people linking logs complaining about sophic devotion proc times

[left ledge]

Yea yea funny enough

I might remember that too

[remote shuttle]

So as u told me sub haa been more rng than now in the past

(ws ub reset procs, back to back dep on shadowcraft)

[tribal blade]

the worst time in recent memory for sub rng was the tier set during S3 of DF

[haughty mural]

rng not so bad right now

[tribal blade]

shadow rupture gaming

was miserable

[remote shuttle]

Ye

[haughty mural]

Oh god

[remote shuttle]

Had all wa to track

[haughty mural]

Shadow rupture

[obtuse nebula]

If i wanted to switch sub from Fire mage for 11.2. do you think that i have a time to learn it ? (last time played assa in BFA) i think that Fire APM starts to F me over...

[tribal blade]

if you proccing it during dance you were going to the moon

[remote shuttle]

Was my welcome in wow that thing 😂

[runic trail]

I've recently started learning it and it isn't that bad, you'll be fine!

[remote shuttle]

Iirc we were sending double / triple ruptures to proc it

[tribal blade]

ofc absolutely

[haughty mural]

Why would you switch from mage to sub if I may ask

But yea you’ll be fine

[tribal blade]

but yeah you would be going from the most iterated on class in the game to the least

[runic trail]

Got called a sub too much and they took it to heart

[tribal blade]

fyi

[obtuse nebula]

I start to feel that APM is slowly fucking me over and i have to focus on rotation more and don't pay attention to mechanics in raids

[tribal blade]

sub is not a "simple" spec to play

[haughty mural]

Assa is slower

[tribal blade]

sin would be more your pace

[haughty mural]

Kinda

[tribal blade]

sub does have lower apm outside cds yes

[swift tinsel]

I mean our downtime is very slow

[tribal blade]

but you need to be keeping track of several different cds that all refresh at different rates

[swift tinsel]

Even between-flag dances aren’t that fast paced

[tribal blade]

sin is just- send all cds on pull

[obtuse nebula]

i don't have issue with complexity as long as i'm not "forced" by class design to be punished for every single little mistake

[tribal blade]

and then kingsbane off cd

then go into cds again

[swift tinsel]

The cd refresh part ends up kinda scripted

At least in raid

[remote shuttle]

How long till this get u bored?

[swift tinsel]

Flag - 2 dance - flag - 1 dance

[tribal blade]

i'm enjoying it, change of pace

[swift tinsel]

Shift things around as needed for boss timers

[tribal blade]

having been a 1 trick sub for so long

[haughty mural]

Id argue you’ll get punished hard as sub

[remote shuttle]

Ah fair so, to me sounds like a lil boring but may be wrong

[haughty mural]

Since cdr is so tight

[tribal blade]

yeah sub is quite punishing

if you mess it up

very punishing

[obtuse nebula]

as much as fire ? I mean, can 1-2 gcd mistakes fuck me over as much ? and completely shift off my cd for entire fight ?

[remote shuttle]

And so fun and enjoying when u do good 😊

[haughty mural]

Yes

[swift tinsel]

Yes

[tribal blade]

sub has so much damage in cds

[swift tinsel]

If you don’t get your burst window essentially gcd-perfect

It’s a big loss for sub

[tribal blade]

so making mistakes in cds has a big impact

so much so that i plan using immunes like cloak+evasion around cds

[obtuse nebula]

Like it's not a problem short term, problem is if i'm basically in that hyper focus state like 80% of fight

[swift tinsel]

Fire combust uptime is way higher than our dance/flag uptime so mistakes for them aren’t as bad

[remote shuttle]

Same 😂 is a must

[tribal blade]

you could legit play ret or bm

[swift tinsel]

Sub hyperfocus state is 24 seconds every 1.5 mins

[remote shuttle]

And abusing feint

[tribal blade]

if you wanted to turn brain off and focus on mechanics

[haughty mural]

I’d argue sub is more punishing than fire tbh

[obtuse nebula]

sounds decent to be fair

[swift tinsel]

And arguably it’s only 16 since blades is the big one

[left ledge]

You are in a state of managing your cooldowns the whole fight, the actual rotation is pretty easy to autopilot, the difference between sub and fire is, sub is melee and can’t blink

So if you pop cds and get fucked

You’re fucked

[obtuse nebula]

i'm not gonna say i blink to death but i will

😆

[swift tinsel]

Getting every gaol set

Ggwp

[left ledge]

You will experience moments where you pop cds

And get cucked

That is basically gg

You’ll have to learn your timings

[tribal blade]

on one of my last reclears of stix i fucked up a final cd set

and that destroyed my parse

[left ledge]

The complexity of sub is not rotation, it’s cd management

[obtuse nebula]

Like last tier as fire i felt quite confident, this tier it got so bad even with my gameplay....

and i don't feel like i have fundamentally changed something

[tribal blade]

you can try sub and see

but i feel like there are specs that are infinitely easier to play

sub isn't quite as hard as it used to be though

[obtuse nebula]

I definitely enjoy complexity, but i think that High APM is what kinda chews my attention too much

[tribal blade]

i found having higher apm not to really be an issue

when the cd timings are very easy to track and use

but i would still suggest trying sin

as sin in ST you can miss gcds and it'll mostly be fine, even a good thing

since energy pooling is a thing for sin

[obtuse nebula]

I guess i will give it a try... I remembered that i have played Sin briefly in PVP in Shadowlands

😄

[tribal blade]

cd management as sin is also quite simple overall

you have deathmark, x2 shivs and kingsbane

basically send everything on pull

then 1 min later kingsbane with x2 shivs again

then 1 min later all cds again

[tulip gorge]

Isn’t sub kinda simple too

You send 2 dances with flag

Then 2 separate dances

Flag again with 2 dances

[swift tinsel]

More or less yeah

[tulip gorge]

Is the extra cdr from trickster tier set going to change anything?

[swift tinsel]

Initial thought is it’ll make 2x dances between each flag a thing

Instead of alternating 2 and 1

Might be some other stuff but can’t test yet

[tulip gorge]

Sounds good

[swift tinsel]

The extra cdr is a potentially exciting gameplay element

[tulip gorge]

Is deathstalker dead on arrival?

[swift tinsel]

Hopefully

The tier bonuses are not good

And make zero sense

At least for sub, maybe they make sense for sin lol

[tulip gorge]

For sin it’s quite good

[swift tinsel]

That spec’s a bit outside my wheelhouse lol

[tulip gorge]

It would have been nice if black powder worked with darkest night

[hazy breach]

Lots of things would make it better, but none of them seem to be happening

Our aoe rotation overall needs to be looked at, its kind of a trainwreck

On low target cleave its fine as trickster because you just pretend its singletarget

But in high target counts its constantly choosing between options that all feel bad, either you storm and dont get coup stacks but you get to (randomly) apply find weakness or you strike and get coup but no find weakness

Tornado during cds wastes shadowcraft refunds etc

[haughty mural]

Just remove tornado please

[swift tinsel]

idek what I'd want for an aoe playstyle for sub anymore

[vale pine]

tornado is something in need for a rework since df

was never that good

[swift tinsel]

fantasy would be shadow clone jutsu

[vale pine]

aoe also has the problem of being not obviouse

[swift tinsel]

but that's already SEF

[vale pine]

when is it better to evis instead of bp?

[swift tinsel]

the FW problem

[vale pine]

before target cap you would assume

[swift tinsel]

bc of SF

[vale pine]

but thats not alwas the case

alsowhe to use BP

[swift tinsel]

being a part of it

[vale pine]

when to use storm instead of strike/bs?

if you are on 8 targets, our aoe with bp is not that good

all while we trade off single target

and if we funnel

we arn't good at it while losing a shitton of aoe

[swift tinsel]

idk personally I like the idea of being a prio target destroyer

since single target burst is a strength of the spec

[vale pine]

well thats the niche of assassination now

[swift tinsel]

right, since they got all the niches from the rework which is frustrating

funnel, prio, execute, aoe

[vale pine]

assassiantion got most niches rogue had

[swift tinsel]

yeah, which is a mistake

[vale pine]

subtlety was the most mobile class offering 2 shadow steps

[swift tinsel]

but it's whatever ig bc that's how they want it

[vale pine]

now all 3 have the same mobility

[swift tinsel]

strike teleport during dance would be nice

nothing big but kinda neat

[vale pine]

would be a dissaster

[mighty citrus]

dead

[vale pine]

there is a reason they removed it

[mighty citrus]

same with coupoe

[vale pine]

because you initially had the teleport always

[swift tinsel]

ig pay more attention

[runic trail]

That got me killed a bunch back in legion, it was fun times.

[vale pine]

yes

[runic trail]

(it wasn't fun times)

[vale pine]

a classic was on the roomba boss

[haughty mural]

Atleast I was able to teleport from add to add during krosus prog.

[vale pine]

you would strike and teleport behind him, getting killed instantly

i had a lot of fun optimizing the bridge boss

with spring vanish

[runic trail]

Also the sprint -> vanish thing fucked me a few times. Get mechanic, sprint to where I need to go, vanish procs and the mechanic goes elsewhere last second.

[vale pine]

but back to the topic

the reason aoe is meh on sub is

there was not effort put into it

[swift tinsel]

yeah, and it shows

from available aoe abilities to aoe talents in the tree

[vale pine]

assassination got an entire patch in DF of attetion to make it good in aoe

[swift tinsel]

and I use the 'talents' part loosely

[vale pine]

outlaw was historically the aoe spec for rogue

subtlety just got BP as a band aid

[swift tinsel]

yeah and that was recently too

relatively

SL?

[vale pine]

BP was SL yes

also keep in mind secret

did no damage for most of its existance

[swift tinsel]

painfully aware

[vale pine]

so as much as people love to make statements about sin having no aoe

[vestal escarp]

i'll make the channel cringe with one single move

[vale pine]

for most of the history, sub had worse aoe than sin

[tribal blade]

sectec used to be one of the most made fun of sub spells

[vale pine]

ill give you an example to highlight what i mean

BP was added

and you know how assassiantion has ct

ct was a two part attack

an initial damage hit and a damage over time effect

the initial damage hit did more damage than the entirety of BP

[swift tinsel]

that absolutely tracks lol

[vale pine]

thats because of how damage scaled

but BP was buffed multiple times

so it wasn't a complete meme

e.g. if you look at DF

season 1 and 2

subtlety was actually the aoe spec of rogue

its just

[swift tinsel]

its so boring

[vale pine]

it was nerfed

[swift tinsel]

storm - bp

[vale pine]

unintentionally

[swift tinsel]

barf

[vale pine]

like reals was in here

assuming the spec changes had no impact on aoe

one thing i still have issues understand

if the design goal was to keep the aoe output of subtlety the same

why haven't we seen buffs to correct for the diffrence like at all?

there is likely no bad intention

but logically

if i would rework parts ot all rogue specs

[swift tinsel]

the design of sub during and post rework has felt a bit aimless

[vocal wolf]

Really couldn't be bothered to fix it I guess LMAO

[vale pine]

and i even publically basically say i want to keep one part equal to before that

wouldn't it make sense to then also buff things back to get to the goal?

reality is

it was because subtlety was good in raid

it creates a dynamic, where you can't make something thats good in raid even better

making it hard to ask for buffs when you are good

but also going with recent discussions in here

even if subtlety is the worse performer statistically, at least going from some individuals

we are also not allowed to ask for buffs

[haughty mural]

If some things get fixed eventually don’t even need many buffs

[swift tinsel]

I think the aoe discussion is less about buffs but more gameplay-related

[vale pine]

but most things are balancing problems

lets say aoe vs. prio damage

[swift tinsel]

well yeah, at the end of the day that's usually where the issues lie

[haughty mural]

Didn’t someone discover that sectechs target scaling does not work properly

[swift tinsel]

but those are knobs that can be adjusted

[vale pine]

if BP did a LOT more damage in aoe, and the prio damage was higher

[haughty mural]

As well as the tier problems with it

[vale pine]

you actually had a trade off

you would need to decide, do i want to be rly high in overall

or do i need the extra prio to speed up the dungeon

[swift tinsel]

isn't that a choice sin can currently make?

[vale pine]

sin gets prio for free

you don't lose aoe damage for it

your "decision" is in talents

and your weakness only exist if you can't pull extra mobs to targets

[swift tinsel]

yeah, wasn't the tradeoff most recently going for more overall at the cost of ST

[lilac stag]

Assa gets to choose what damage type will be better for the targets of sorts. (Full Bleed vs KB)

[swift tinsel]

I'm not the most familiar with how they're working atm

[vale pine]

its like this

you trade off single target

[swift tinsel]

yeah this was my thought behind it

[vale pine]

but if you have more than one target

you gain enough prio to make this fairly irrelevant

creating a dynamic in which you absolutely are worse

but only

if the dungeon design has a lot of pure single target

[lilac stag]

Assa basically has talent option that you can adjust for dungeon difficulty

and now you’re going to empower everything

[vale pine]

which is why certain dungeons benefit from changes of talents or well specs

mid dungeon

(if anything i said was wrong, feel free to correct me)

[lilac stag]

Bleed build loses value say at 18+ keys. Ok. Change it a bit and you’ve got a build you can run that’s more effective.

Sub…

[swift tinsel]

yeah the lack of meaningful choice for sub is extremely annoying

[vale pine]

its not that bad

[lilac stag]

It’s not even meaningful choices. It’s absolutely dead talents.

[vale pine]

again i think its more a tuning problem

[swift tinsel]

as in talent tuning or ability tuning

[vale pine]

having the ability to custoize to keys is only relevant if you are already the strongest tuning wise

if assassiantions aoe was a lot worse

[lilac stag]

WM very meaningful choice in m+

[swift tinsel]

because like scath said we legitimately have dead talents

[vale pine]

people would not play it even tho you have the talent options

[lilac stag]

TFD taken and played around annoyingly because everything else is shit

[vale pine]

tfd design made no sense

the timer was just added for pvp

[lilac stag]

which is back to dead talents

Not just tuning

[vale pine]

and it just adds a lot of complexity for no real reason

what did we gain from it?

[swift tinsel]

WM, PV, GMB, Shadow Focus

[lilac stag]

A longer dance opening on reclears in raid.

[swift tinsel]

Warning Signs, Master of Shadows, Lingering Shadow, Silent Storm, Night Terrors/Terrifying Pace,

[lilac stag]

Tornado

[swift tinsel]

essentially wasted nodes

yeah

[lilac stag]

literally no use with trickster

[swift tinsel]

that's almost 25% of our talent nodes being effectively or literally dead

[keen dome]

Shot in the Dark

[swift tinsel]

if that wasn't required I would have listed it lol

[keen dome]

Fair. It's just a tax node.

[swift tinsel]

if you swap it and Swift Death positions you'd never talent it

so I'll count it nvm lol

[vale pine]

i mean there are nodes like

[hazy breach]

Silent storm is actually quite decent

[swift tinsel]

its just in a place you can't really get it

[hazy breach]

Its just in a cursed position

[swift tinsel]

reasonably

yeah

[vale pine]

PV was even before beta mentioned as a very poor talent option

[swift tinsel]

which makes its existence in the tree worse

[vale pine]

and is still rly bad

its only a node to shortcut

so you would only take it to get other nodes

[hazy breach]

According to my math the 50% could be active at all times on all builders and it would still be a quite bad talent

[next briar]

Is there any other stipulation for getting the vanish macro/bug to work. Or is it normal for it to be like 50% of the time.

[vale pine]

yes, its just by design bad

sadly

but thats a lot of things

[hazy breach]

Thats just how it is im afraid

[vale pine]

and then there are things like tornado

tornado is not bad

but also not good

[next briar]

Ty

[swift tinsel]

it doesn't fit sub anymore

[vale pine]

and its such a complicated mess of a ability, its just not a fit for modern wow anymore

[swift tinsel]

same with goremaws

[keen dome]

Ye. Relics of an older design ethos.

[vale pine]

goremaws was never good

[swift tinsel]

or lingering shadows

[vale pine]

i up to this point don't understand why it was brought back

because the only person i saw hyped about it was push

[swift tinsel]

our tree is a grab bag of old legendaries, azerite traits

[vale pine]

and maybe one or two persons on the wow forum

and every damn time someone mentioned a way to "fix" goremaws

[swift tinsel]

previously 2 but now just 1 old covenant ability

[vale pine]

he compeltely redesigns it

and just keeps the name

[swift tinsel]

just get it of it

[vale pine]

which ye... maybe its good if you do that

but whats the point in bringing back something

[swift tinsel]

if its not that thing anymore

[vale pine]

to then create something completely diffrent

[swift tinsel]

yeah

like a janky ship of theseus

[vale pine]

just to keep the name?

[swift tinsel]

but the boards are just piles of shit

and the nails

are smaller piles of shit

[vale pine]

goremaws is by design not bad

its just, it solves issues we don't have

[swift tinsel]

finisher energy cost is such a nothing element

[vale pine]

and we have other talents to do the same thing

[lilac stag]

Relics of incomplete spec designs and adjustments. Quite literally a garage sale of abilities found at your neighbors.

[vale pine]

its redundant, and as such isn't that great

you can make it do a lot of damage

but you can do the same with any other ability and it would feel good

[swift tinsel]

unless it makes flag/blades windows functionally better I don't really see the point

[lilac stag]

tbf I don’t understand why we can’t just have all the abilities except maybe melee be shadow dmg.

[swift tinsel]

Yes

please

god

[lilac stag]

Add talents that buff builders or finishers

[vale pine]

to be fair

[lilac stag]

And not 50 energy talents.

[vale pine]

one of the extremely hard to understand things

of subtlety is

how layered stuff is now

why do we apply find weakness to deal more damage ?

[swift tinsel]

unnecessarily layered

[vale pine]

why do hero talents then not work with find weakness but apply fazed

[lilac stag]

if someone says can’t be shadow because pvp and ignoring armor, delete pvp

[swift tinsel]

it should be 100% uptime by design, or as part of our burst window

[vale pine]

why is fazed and unseen blade a diffrent thing

[swift tinsel]

why is nimble phys and converts shadow damage to phys

[vale pine]

and why is there another thing called flawless form

[swift tinsel]

and flawless form and fazed having different durations

[vale pine]

so you now have 4 spells which do simialr things to track

[lilac stag]

They ran out of shadow word combos

[vale pine]

exactly

and its also in aoe

[swift tinsel]

why 2 sec difference

immersion?

[vale pine]

as eleem mentioend having find weakness secured on all targets

[swift tinsel]

oversight?

[vale pine]

is a good thing

[vale pine]

friction

things like this are often done intentional

[lilac stag]

@swift tinsel they actually need to play the spec

[swift tinsel]

FW, if they want it that impactful, should be like a personal version of Mystic Touch

[vale pine]

like realz mentioned

he does not want things to align natrually

[lilac stag]

They layering of flag and blades. Fml

[swift tinsel]

active perma once applied

[vale pine]

so players need to think about the use

[lilac stag]

yeah why have something fluid and make sense

[vale pine]

then after that he changed the cooldown of shiv to perfetcly fit natually

[swift tinsel]

lmao

[vale pine]

which was also cinema

[swift tinsel]

ass

[lilac stag]

just for the sake of friction

Is terrible fucking design

[swift tinsel]

agreed

it is anti fun

[vale pine]

i mean its like with the first dance

[swift tinsel]

by design

[vale pine]

if there was no 6 sec restiriction

[swift tinsel]

and using that to prop up decisions

is ass

[vale pine]

the talent would be insanely good

but with the 6 sec

[lilac stag]

choices in finishers, when to use major and minor CDs, sure.

[vale pine]

every time i talk to someone not maining sub

he has no fucking clue how good it is

and asumes its trash

because "bro you can't restealth in keys"

[naive mantle]

i think they just have to many nodes to fill with the new talents trees and hero talents, every spec has like 10 different procs you dont actually care to track because playing around them all is just not possible

[vale pine]

"so why should 6 sec more than that ever be good"

[swift tinsel]

both DK specs just got 2 2pt nodes for tuning knobs

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/bibi-befreesh-kcorp-kameto-corp-clown-gif-19243813

Juggling multi CDs with non-aligned timings is a clown show in design.

[vale pine]

yes

and i am sure they know that

[lilac stag]

People don’t want to play that shit

[vale pine]

i mean

inherently

[lilac stag]

People want their swifty macro

[vale pine]

subtlety having only one talent combination you can play everywhere

is great

it is what a lot of people want

[swift tinsel]

I actually disagree

[vale pine]

but turns out, they also want a simple to understand rotation and good tuning, else we would have player numbers like ret paladin

[lilac stag]

people, except outlaw players, don’t want temu outlaw with CDs

[swift tinsel]

one universal talent combination is not a great thing imo

look at sin and being able to choose a damage profile

[lilac stag]

Id love to play as sub, but the base spec and the hero spec both suck

[swift tinsel]

friction

[naive mantle]

sub was pretty popular in shadowlands when it was dead simple iirc

[vale pine]

subtlety was popular in df too

[lilac stag]

I’m really curious what the play rate is for 1 button in mythic raid

[vale pine]

if i learned one thing looking at statistics, its that tuning is for rogue the biggest factor of what people play

[hazy breach]

A lot of popularity is just tied to powerlevel

[lilac stag]

we’re also the smallest class populous

[vale pine]

^

[lilac stag]

So we’re good about swapping as needed

vs Hunter and mage. Fuck you I’ll play what I want.

[vale pine]

like one of the reason people loved assassiantion in Legion/BfA for raiding

was simply, it was the strongest rogue spec for 4 years for raiding

so there was no other choice so to say

[lilac stag]

assa on 90 seconds. Does sub have a slot to fill?

[vale pine]

yes

[mighty citrus]

if you are open to what spec you take, you might favor sin, as it has many advantages during progression right? i mean if specs pull similar numbers, why not take the one spec, which gives you room to do stuff, due to limited energy, having execute etc

[haughty mural]

That I don’t understand

At all

[lilac stag]

Besides lower 1/3 of details

[hazy breach]

Well that would be sub, not assa

[haughty mural]

The 90sec takeover

[runic trail]

Possibly, depends on fight design. If there's a bunch of fights where there's high prio adds sub might be needed

[lilac stag]

Assa has more priority

[lucid jackal]

You play the spec that's tuned the highest on prog. And more often than not, sub is the better prog spec because of raw tuning and also having a better profile

[swift tinsel]

last boss having vuln window that almost matches blades

[paper mortar]

doesnt sub work better with damage amps?

[swift tinsel]

will almost certainly play a part

[vale pine]

i already mentioned it the other day

[mighty citrus]

then you would take outlaw no? as it always sims highest?

[swift tinsel]

no

[haughty mural]

No

[swift tinsel]

because outlaw is mostly flat

[lucid jackal]

Sims aren't the game

[mighty citrus]

yeah

thats true

[vale pine]

assassiantion filling the same niche as subtlety still does not mean all fine details are the same

[lucid jackal]

Sin sims the lowest, performs the highest or equal to sub rn

The reality is u just play the spec that's tuned slightly higher on prog. Most of the time on early prog if nowhere else, sub is the best.

[vale pine]

to be fair simulations are for pure single target, and also more times than not did fit very well within what you see in the raid

[haughty mural]

Sub will be the prog spec again

[lucid jackal]

Sub and sin both of perks

[vale pine]

subtlety was the best on progress many times in the last tiers because of certain things, not nessecery design but i give some examples

[swift tinsel]

none of its gonna matter though bc dev engulf exists and is getting buffed

[vale pine]

first tier DF, Subtelty did help in all phases of the fight instead of being essentially dead weight with execute in the last phase. This was one of the few tiers assassiantion would not be good by talent design.

[lucid jackal]

It doesn't really matter what the external reasons are

Bottom line is sub has a lot of perks on prog, and tends to be tuned the highest

This tier it fell off for sure

[swift tinsel]

we got our power spike super early which also helps positon on prog

[lilac stag]

it’ll be interesting to see what the power spike is for all the dps classes with tier sets. A few seem goofy good on paper.

or what their target % is

After the crap we got this tier 🎲

[swift tinsel]

there's been a few specs saying theirs is wildly overperforming

[hazy breach]

Probably like 15%

[swift tinsel]

I think sprist, enh

[hazy breach]

Compared to the 10% or so of this tier

[swift tinsel]

I'm really hoping the season 2 experiment is never repeated, the hero tree idea is quite nice though

[lilac stag]

If you don’t play rogue.

[swift tinsel]

lol conceptually

[mighty citrus]

for me personally i like sub the most, but i perform worst on it. i try to follow all the basic rules, like 8gcds per dance, 2 dances per flag/sb window, still dmg sucks especially after progression

[lilac stag]

Fair

[vale pine]

it most of the time came down to the diffrences in cooldown timers (90 sec cooldowns) or some very specific benefits like having 2x vanish

[mighty citrus]

and on top set bonus

sucks ass

losing stacks etc

[vale pine]

the dynamic of dust however got removed

[swift tinsel]

not having your hero tree locked in bc of your tier set dictating which one is healthier, it still leaves the door open for one to be better but at least there's a choice

[vale pine]

which means it will be very interessting to see how subtelty holds up

[lilac stag]

I love having 2 stack of tier for CB Sectech in TFD opener. friction

[vale pine]

when assassiantion has also 90 sec and 120 sec dynamically in raiding

[swift tinsel]

lol I think the longest I saw to get max streak stacks was still close to a full minute

[vale pine]

subtlety still has better target switching

[swift tinsel]

which is insane

fastest was 9 seconds

50 second disparity

[lucid jackal]

I'd say the entierity of shadowlands cooldown timers for rogue played 0 part in the equation

Rogue didnt do jobs in shadowlands, rogue just did damage

[vale pine]

rogue was also shit in SL

[lucid jackal]

Uh

We forgetting sanctum

[sweet turret]

you think?
Sub had some good performacne in m+

[lucid jackal]

Yeah rogue also was good in keys

[lilac stag]

Sun king shield was about the only job I remember.

[lucid jackal]

Sub specifically

Like idk, sub was a half flat spec for most of sl

No burst, gloom blade

[vale pine]

did mainly talk about raiding

[swift tinsel]

then it was flat bc giga blades uptime

[lucid jackal]

And none of the fights did rogue Cd's actually did anything

[vale pine]

basically even tho rogue was overtuned in the 2nd raid

you barely saw it played in the wfr even

[tepid trellis]

id agree that sanctum rogue was good and it had nothing to do with cd timings

but that was also cuz rogue had 0 burst

[lucid jackal]

Rogue Cd's didn't do anything all of shadowlands

[swift tinsel]

wasn't old blades just +1 cp on builders

or was it 2

idr

[lucid jackal]

The only reason it wasn't played in rwf is because he didn't get domination gems

Also idgaf about rwf

[swift tinsel]

god fuck that system

[lucid jackal]

Neither of us are rwf

[vale pine]

my point is

[swift tinsel]

dom sockets and gems were so fucking bad

[short radish]

+1

[vale pine]

rogue was absolutely overtuned

[tepid trellis]

+1 and shadow dmg on builders

[vale pine]

and you at most saw one if even one palyed

[short radish]

It was so dog shit lmao

[swift tinsel]

ah ty

[vale pine]

which is a statement

of how "good" the class was

in my opinion

[short radish]

When was the last time more than 1 rogue was brought to rwf

[vale pine]

also lets talk about sepulka

[lucid jackal]

We played double rogue in both sanctum and sepulcur

[lucid jackal]

Amidrasil..?

[tepid trellis]

Rogue was played on every boss in sanctum apart from 2

[swift tinsel]

that sounds right

[short radish]

Other than smold

[tepid trellis]

which was the last 2

[swift tinsel]

Amir

[runic trail]

I never got that about class player numbers, like, rogue is consistently pretty good but the overall numbers are low

[lucid jackal]

...?

[tepid trellis]

cuz you didn't need boss dmg

[runic trail]

Which is weird

[lucid jackal]

They played double or triple rogue on every fight m8

[short radish]

Oh did they?

[tepid trellis]

yeh

[lucid jackal]

Yes LMFAO

[short radish]

I dont follow rwf much

So I actually didn't know

[lucid jackal]

Valid

[short radish]

I only follow rfwl

[runic trail]

The true race

[swift tinsel]

they're kinda eh in terms of entertainment value

[tepid trellis]

gromnak on the cast

[swift tinsel]

watch parties are usually more fun to listen to

[tepid trellis]

on tindral

was peak

[swift tinsel]

I only listen to JB for wow events

[hazy breach]

"i fucking hate boomkins man"

[runic trail]

We might get CE before the RFWL channel this year, can't call ourselves a RFWL guild any more

[short radish]

You won't make it up on the multi stream!

[runic trail]

Probably for the best given our mechanical play

[short radish]

[runic trail]

Nobody needs to see that

[short radish]

I don't think rfwl is as good content this time

Feels like it'll just be watching to the raid randomly wiping because they forgot to do one mechanic

Though I suppose you can say that about any fight

[vale pine]

RFWL sounds entertaining

i never watched it

[tepid trellis]

last time i watched race to worlds last

[short radish]

Its so good man

[tepid trellis]

was fyrakk

[swift tinsel]

do they do like a simulcast of the fights or what

idk if I've heard of race to world last but it sounds funny

[short radish]

Nah you just tune in randomly during the day. Put all the streams up on multitwitch

[swift tinsel]

ah

[runic trail]

Possibly less fun as someone playing in one of those guilds, going straight from queen prog to undermine was... Painful

[swift tinsel]

I'm like never on twitch anymore

[runic trail]

I just want a break man

I'm tired

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/holes-grandpa-thats-too-damn-bad-gif-15698581

[tepid trellis]

there is a fix for that

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/green-mile-im-tired-boss-michael-clarke-duncan-gif-2375696290766999196

[short radish]

It's also more fun cheering on "underdogs"

Than whoever the fuck cares about liquid or echo

[runic trail]

Does it involve eating less glue?

[tepid trellis]

next rwf

method vs echo

[runic trail]

Because that's a compromise I'm not willing to make

[tepid trellis]

could be interesting

[short radish]

Yeah you eat some sprinkles with it as well

[swift tinsel]

bruh wowhead dropped a void meta dh article, this shit needs to stop

[short radish]

That's the secret

[tepid trellis]

nah its called joining another guild that clears faster

[vale pine]

RWF was a bit weird last times, mostly because of how bosses got nerfed/hotfixed

[runic trail]

I'm sold

[vale pine]

and because of how bugs played a big role for progress

[runic trail]

Nah I don't think I'm good enough to move up on ranks, I know my place

Also, the vibes are good

[keen dome]

it's funny because it's such a low effort model

[fallow nimbus]

Farming the clicks

[keen dome]

they just painted meta purple "Yeah man look this shows we're getting the spec!"

[swift tinsel]

"This Metamorphosis model is certainly another of those abilities, but it does make one question the effort being put into the class fantasy of a style of Demon Hunter not currently available to players, and if we might be able to get similar void-themed abilities of our own in the near future. Could this be related to the speculated third Demon Hunter spec?"

or

hear me out

they're designing a raid fight

also

[fallow nimbus]

It was just a dh with rogue helmet and new glaive model

[keen dome]

Vengance and Havoc both have unique Meta foms. If it was real it would be a unique form and not just Vengance But Purple

[swift tinsel]

referencing your own Speculated Third Spec article that's purely bait

is so cringe

omg

[vale pine]

I don't know, maybe we will see a 3rd dh spec

[swift tinsel]

3rd spec plus 3rd hero tree

[vale pine]

true

[swift tinsel]

a bit of extra complexity that I don't see panning out outside of an expansion launch

[alpine wraith]

they will be a support spec

so people can riot with aug too

[swift tinsel]

lol if we see another support spec in the next decade I'll be a bit surprised

from how disasterous aug has been

[keen dome]

Support spec would be the funniest outcome

[swift tinsel]

100%

[keen dome]

"Here's the new spec: purple aug"

[swift tinsel]

so I support it

if that's the case

the tears would be so sweet

also

the biggest huffs

"none of it is real, but it still possible bro, trust me"

[vocal wolf]

New spells: Purple Might and Purprescience

[lucid jackal]

Okay but hearthstone art is not an argument against something

A lot of art in wow is hearthstone based

The sub background art is of a card called smoke bomb

[fallow nimbus]

[lucid jackal]

And outlaws is from Edwin defias kingpin

[vale pine]

dps spec ^^

[swift tinsel]

the admission of the AI though is what gets me

[lucid jackal]

Smokescreen my bad

[keen dome]

lol, it is just a HS portrait https://cdn.hearthstonetopdecks.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/hero-aranna.jpg

[swift tinsel]

valeera for sin

hngggggg

my muse, my flame

[vocal wolf]

Inb4 tuning passes managed by AI /jk

[keen dome]

It being a recolour though. That's the bit I'd doubt

[fallow nimbus]

Damn, sub is draw 5 cards but our deck is empty and we lose

[swift tinsel]

"before"

bold of you to assume

[vocal wolf]

Xd

[swift tinsel]

"hey ChatGPT buff all the bottom performing specs that specifically aren't subtlety"

"okay they're mad buff it by 5% but do it twice then reverse one of them"

[vocal wolf]

"While you are at it can you reintroduce a couple game breaking bugs just for flavor?"

[swift tinsel]

that sub-agnostic bottom performer buff pass still pisses me off

[vocal wolf]

I told myself I was gonna pick up sub again this tier to freshen up (been playing sin/law almost exclusively since df s1) and then I see the numbers

Maybe next tier

Doesn't help I honestly don't like trickster sub

[lucid jackal]

U shud play sub in keys rn

It's good in raid

[vocal wolf]

Been pushing as outlaw tho :p

Maybe I'll try it on reclear

[hazy breach]

Idk nothing wrong with subs numbers, in raid especially

[vocal wolf]

Fair, I think I'm just taking the weekly rankings at face value since we're still Progging

[swift tinsel]

I'd mostly ignore those personally

[vocal wolf]

I'll try it out on reclear then, we're almost out of p1 gally deadge soon I hope

[swift tinsel]

if you aren't already looking at it, lorrgs.io is nice to see sub timers

[vocal wolf]

Just glad our disc priest is back next week so I can stop healing xd

Ye I love lorrgs