#subtlety
cloud rover
tribal blade
keen dome
August 12th for patch lauch. August 19th for raid.
tribal blade
https://tenor.com/view/doctor-who-minor-spelling-mistake-12-12th-doctor-twelve-g...
you absolute buffon
get wrecked
keen dome
there is no greater sin than to make a minor typi
lilac stag
Welcome to sub chat
cloud rover
I would guess 5th August Patch, 12 August Raid
tribal blade
cloud rover
I asked Prophet out on a date and he hits me with a minor spelling mistake
tribal blade
dw i made my own minor spelling mistake
lilac stag
dw i made my own minor spelling mistake
It’s quite easy to misspell subtlety as assassination.
tribal blade
It’s quite easy to misspell subtlety as assassination.
iseewhatyoudidthere
brittle plinth
What if the secret technique was anyways @lilac stag but he only exists on discord not in game?
hollow needle
All right gents.
Got this belt, bolts still doesn't show on dummy targets.
When I SIM it, It asks to change all gems / Enchants to Crit Vers and Vers for rings to make up the vers hit from BIS belt on Mythic track. Ignor or pull the trigger?
hazy breach
It doesnt work on dummies
If the sim difference is smaller than like 0.1-0.2% its completely irrelevant, but go ahead if you want to
graceful osprey
What if…we could customize secret technique. Like for example, we could have like shadowy clones appear OR have different transmog variations of our character appear
keen dome
Different Brann bronzebeards
hollow needle
If the sim difference is smaller than like 0.1-0.2% its completely irrelevant, b...
24.4k to 55.8k a sec difference. Would you do it?
hazy breach
Thats way more than just changing sockets
So sounds like youve did something sus with the sim
hollow needle
Thats way more than just changing sockets
Sus!! What type of Rogue do you think I am. nothing out of the norm, just added the available gems and enchants to the SIM with new belt. Nothin else is changed.
hollow needle
It's a swap from Mastery/Vers to Crit/Vers//
lilac stag
link
lilac stag
You’re literally adding the belt
hollow spear
Lmao
swift tinsel
lilac stag
hollow spear
Now at least we know what kind of rogue you are!
fallow nimbus
Support the economy and buy new gems
hollow needle
Ahh, yeah and this sim, unlike without the belt, is asking to swap the gems. Didn;t i mention that...
hazy breach
Bro is also simming with PI
swift tinsel
legend
bleak night
it might be asking you to swap gems but that isnt the gems being a 30k difference
lilac stag
Hense the assa comment. 
hollow needle
.... I question every time I come here. Think i need you. keep dreaming.
bleak night
its the belt being a 29.5k difference and the gems being maybe the rest
fallow nimbus
The trick is to sim full 1 color gems and just replacing 3 with the other colors
hollow needle
Question, whould you wap the gems to min/max
lilac stag
get rid of rotten and rerun all gems again. 
swift tinsel
considering it'll tell you different gems each time you run the same sim, nah
fallow nimbus
considering it'll tell you different gems each time you run the same sim, nah
This is actually so funny
hazy breach
Also why do you not have sockets in your rings
lilac stag
and then responded with incorrect information
If I keep asking the same question surely the answer will change (to what I want to hear)
lilac stag
Also why do you not have sockets in your rings
Do you know how much gems cost?!?!?
hollow spear
If you clicked show variations, you'd have your answer
fallow nimbus
I am so rich i even recrafted neck and wrist to vers/crit
bleak night
holy
hollow spear
Same
bleak night
what a gamer
bleak night
that just sounds uncomfortable
swift tinsel
hollow spear
Mastery? Never heard of him...
fallow nimbus
I have different crafted stuff for assa, i never play assa 
brittle plinth
Pfft, get on my level. I have *TWO* necks.
I have two but one teleports me to black temple to punish myself weekly
lilac stag
Mine is getting recrafted to haste vers for rise of outlaw 
🏴☠️
hollow spear
You'll be back after two hours
swift tinsel
brittle plinth
Outlaw looking pretty right now
lilac stag
You'll be back after two hours
Nah. Outlaw is banger right now minus KS
fallow nimbus
Gun-fu
hollow spear
I don't know. Progging on outlaw sounds like a nightmare.
lilac stag
nah
hollow spear
Perma adhd gameplay
keen dome
I'm gonna make a 1H weapon for Outlaw
fallow nimbus
Funny that the sim with belt shoot me up to 25% crit
keen dome
I have crests and spark sand nothing to spend them on. I'm gonna do it!
keen dome
Funny that the sim with belt shoot me up to 25% crit
I lost a load of crit swapping to it and sim just goes "yeah whatever"
bleak night
holy speed
fallow nimbus
I have belt/boots with big crit and belt/boots with big vers
hollow spear
Is that the same category as big pharma?
keen dome
Ye, I had belt with crit. I went from like, 18% to 15%
Sim still wants more versatility.
hollow spear
My sim wants more crit and vers
hazy breach
As long as you dont get haste it doesnt really matter
Deathstalker doesnt like crit, but we dont like deathstalker anyway
fallow nimbus
Do you use vers flask or chaos?
hollow spear
What if deathstalker didn't like us first?
Tried it on the dummy yesterday
Nightmare fuel
fallow nimbus
Slap td on helmet, crit it, ???, win
keen dome
I run Chaos 'cos RNG is fun
hazy breach
Tried it on the dummy yesterday
Idk the ST isnt that bad, its just worse than trickster. Its aoe thats the most decroded
hollow spear
The cdr feels so bad
swift tinsel
clenching pretty hard to get both sectechs in blades
ranged vs melee halondrus meme
@hazy breach been messing with the new spymasters timings at all?
hazy breach
I mean its just gonna be use it as a 90s trinket most of the time
Dont think holding it for 3 min is gonna be the play in most cases since you lose stacks on the trinket doing that
As it caps after 2:30
swift tinsel
Yeah that's what I was thinking about, or sending ~30 in to try and get max at 3mins but it doesn't seem worth
and using maghar as 1:30 'trinket'
but seems kinda scuffed
hazy breach
Not having it in the opener kinda sucks though, we'll see
swift tinsel
maybe its a dungeon on-use opener angle, idk
fallow nimbus
You know what would be really funny when assa goes 1:30 too? Boss phases on 2min timers
swift tinsel
but that would make things weird downstream
hazy breach
You know what would be really funny when assa goes 1:30 too? Boss phases on 2min...
Well then they just dont play fatebound
Fatebounds kinda stinky anyway
formal helm
same-ish but I'm somehow at 31% vers and 87% mastery 
vale pine
You know what would be really funny when assa goes 1:30 too? Boss phases on 2min...
the benefit they have is they can just switch hero talent
swift tinsel
I didn't bother to check yet, because netherprism is such a short cd does it share cds with other on-use
formal helm
same-ish but I'm somehow at 31% vers and 87% mastery <:kekdog:907207037757296710...
w8, I'm fucking stupid, 31% is with flask
swift tinsel
idr if spymasters was like that but for some reason I thought it was
hazy breach
I didn't bother to check yet, because netherprism is such a short cd does it sha...
if it doesnt it 100% will get fixed to do that anyway
But im fairly sure it does
swift tinsel
yeah would be quite strong otherwise
I only messed with it a bit last night with the other passive stacking one
which felt a bit azerokk-like where it felt great when it lined up but pretty eh otherwise
gonna try out the others after work
hollow spear
Fatebound is pretty meh for any 2+ target on sin
fallow nimbus
Maybe we see some qol with coming ptr builds
unique nest
What's up with the engage on gally mythic ? I saw some logs where they don't cd on engage, instead they just double dance and CD at 34sec
hollow spear
Maybe we see some qol with coming ptr builds
Maybe they disable ds on sub so new players don't accidentally choose it
lucid jackal
What's up with the engage on gally mythic ? I saw some logs where they don't cd ...
Pad cd timers
swift tinsel
idk with last ptr cycle they fixed a bunch of bugs so its possible
vale pine
Maybe they disable ds on sub so new players don't accidentally choose it
I think the hero talent system would have been best if you only had one per spec
formal helm
Maybe they disable ds on sub so new players don't accidentally choose it
maybe they remove the ds so players don't accidentally choose it / see it
swift tinsel
most of them are clearly designed for one spec
vale pine
trickster for sub
deathstalker for assassiantion
fatebound for outlaw
swift tinsel
and then made to fit for the other
swift tinsel
Yeah was def too ambitious for the amount of resources they dedicate to it across all specs
formal helm
Wanted to make it look like a choice
it's gonna be the same thing for hero talent tier sets
hollow spear
On arcane both options are viable I think
swift tinsel
and you see the same suspects getting regular attention
lucid jackal
On arcane both options are viable I think
Both options for outlaw are viable
Same with arms and fury
lucid jackal
..?
hollow spear
Outlaw not rly
lucid jackal
Warrior is a usual suspect?
lucid jackal
And outlaw??
hollow spear
Warrior is the usual suspect on getting nerfed if they look too good
swift tinsel
Hunters been usual suspects for too long but they're too popular
swift tinsel
arguably worst offenders
hollow spear
Maybe I should just embrace it and become a bm hunter
swift tinsel
the ultimate brain-off spec
vale pine
Warrior is the usual suspect on getting nerfed if they look too good
subtlety too
can give you some clear examples
hollow spear
Parsing on sub depresses me
left ledge
They’re gonna see you do more damage than one other spec and gut us like a fish
vale pine
both ended up with sub nerfed because it either was buggy on ptr or because blizz dissliked it seeing play
hollow spear
Season 1 bfa I played sin I think
swift tinsel
perma-max winning streak on ptr
vale pine
bfa s1 basically was like this
hollow spear
My gut tells me I'll like double coup
vale pine
subtlety was looking to be the best single target option
swift tinsel
60% damage bonus nerf
vale pine
then they hit the best conduit with a nerf
then again
then zul happened
subtlety was already only palyed on the fight
so they removed shuriken combo
hollow spear
Don't say the z word
lucid jackal
vale pine
and hit the best conduit again with a nerf for good measure
because
if a spec is already only played on one fight
nerfing its single target for sure makes a lot of sense
on top of removing most of the funnel niche
bfa was such a mess balance wise
hollow spear
They probably weren't afraid of alienating the 300 sub core players lul
hollow spear
Dunno, I don't like the current iteration of sin
vale pine
(for raid)
left ledge
It’s always peak balancing for sin 
vale pine
i mean not rly
DF was a lot of hit and miss
season 1 sin started out as the strongest, but the raid design was not good for it
left ledge
Ok they did get gutted in amirdrassil
vale pine
and it got nerfed week one
lucid jackal
Well they also deleted exsang and killed the spec, remember
vale pine
so sub was the best
then they tried to make sin good
with the talent rework mid s1
but turns out that wasn't it
lucid jackal
They removed exsang from sin and then it wasn't playable until amirdrasil where is was worse than sub for the last 3 bosses anyway
vale pine
then they added the ring, which was better for sub/outlaw and made sin worse for that reason
vale pine
when they removed the ring, they reworked damage amp buffs
and accidentally made subtlety do more damage then intented
so seaosn 2 balancing for sub was good besides that being not the intention
tho seaosn 2 was shit for rogue so it did not matter
left ledge
Oh I didn’t play .7
hollow spear
Maybe our s3 tier set is accidentally good
lucid jackal
Why do u keep framing sub being the good spec as "not intentional"
vale pine
they then also buffed assassiantion later in season 2 because it was not good
left ledge
But from when I played vault sin and sub were both pretty good?
vale pine
Why do u keep framing sub being the good spec as "not intentional"
well because it was
left ledge
Sin did more damage than sub on some bosses too
lucid jackal
Sin was generally worse post exsang removal
vale pine
basically all shadow damage amps did apply twice to secret technique
which was an accident
left ledge
vale pine
this accident was fixed in season 3
left ledge
Yeah I mean
vale pine
season 3 assassiantion was supposed to be the best spec, but sub was underrated due to its dominance
vale pine
and after the sin nerfs was clearly the better spec in raiding
lucid jackal
I think ppl just should be more open to the idea of random specs being good each tier and by farm they rebalance shit a lot to be closer overall
I don't think they intentionally make specs strong or weak
In the context of rogue anyway
left ledge
I think they miss the mark a lot though
vale pine
statistics disagree on it
lucid jackal
Sure
lilac stag
Post combo sub would disagree
lucid jackal
I'd say current rogue balance in raid is near perfect
lucid jackal
Post combo sub would disagree
Bfa was 6+ years ago it's time to move on
lucid jackal
Was very close in nerubar as well
All 3 specs were nearly identical
Each spec had an edge on individual fights if u wanted to get technical but they all were decent and could work
left ledge
Yeah there are times at which it happens although for the majority of this season sub was kinda
Dogshit
lucid jackal
Ya sub should have gotten it's aura buff sooner in the patch
hollow spear
They should have just buffed it when they buffed all the other low performers
vale pine
^
hollow spear
To this day a mystery how they messed that one up
keen dome
Yeah, haha
keen dome
I'd love to ask them "uh, did you just fogrget or.."
vale pine
"they ended up spot on with balance"
if you look at numbers and what they buffed
it seemed like the only reason subtlety even got a buff was that people saw how it was the only spec which would else end up as the dead last without getting any buff
hollow spear
That's a little too tinfoil hatty for me
lucid jackal
^
vale pine
wdym
hollow spear
11.0.5 and 11.0.7 were actually pretty good for sub recently
We were like top 10 for sure
vale pine
if you watch the ion interview
hollow spear
So it's not like they want us to be shit
lucid jackal
Ya I mean, they forgot to buff sub when they buffed everything else. Is what it is
vale pine
he mentioned how they do balancing for perception
lucid jackal
In the ion interview he talks about outlaw being too hard to play without weakauras but that hasn't stopped them from buffing and fixing the spec
keen dome
I still, personally, believe they were looking at a median slice of lower ends. Like, Ret was fine But it was weaker at the median so the buff brought it more in line.
left ledge
Outlaw is impossible to play optimally without weakauras
hollow spear
I think he didn't say they only buff for perception
left ledge
That spec gonna need a whole ass rework if they get rid of weakauras 
fleet acorn
They just buff sub to being able to nerf it again After 2 weeks
lucid jackal
He basically talked about sampling bias which is what Ive talked about for years
vale pine
also the buff on sub being low seems intentional
because of again from the same interview
lucid jackal
They just buff sub to being able to nerf it again After 2 weeks
Professional victim
vale pine
the assumption that specs with lower play rate perform around 5-10% worse than they actually are
hollow spear
I mean
vale pine
its why the accidental double buff seemed reasonable
vocal wolf
That spec gonna need a whole ass rework if they get rid of weakauras <:ICANT:922...
Wdym just let the one button rotation take care of it 
hollow spear
Look at where the 10% buff put us
vale pine
because it would bridge this gap
keen dome
The blessed day of double buff was a lot of fun
left ledge
I said this before and I’ll say it again. I think sub would’ve been fine if they actually compensated for the tier nerfs, or if they just reverted the tier nerfs and approached balancing if needed when statistics settled
keen dome
Ye, if they gave us a bit more initially it would've been fine. or anything, really. Whole lot of choices.
hollow spear
I am not arguing that they didn't mess up Sub's balancing this season, because they did. But saying they intentionally keep us down is a bit too far fetched for me.
left ledge
I think we’re permanently fucked in m+
vale pine
i mean as is
left ledge
I don’t really like any iteration of sub in m+ rn anyways
Feels like a cheap clone of the other specs
No real aoe identity on the spec
hollow spear
Because Trickster basically scales aoe from st. So you cannot buff our M+ as easily without making us too strong in ST fights.
left ledge
Because Trickster basically scales aoe from st. So you cannot buff our M+ as eas...
They can just buff flurry
lilac stag
The balancing issues, the bugs (it’s fixed no really see it works on outlaw) just compounds the view that they don’t care
tepid trellis
nimble flurry ruined the spec
vale pine
^
vale pine
DF ruined a lot of things
left ledge
But I also dislike deathstalker
formal helm
I think we’re permanently fucked in m+
esp after hero talents stop being a thing
we're fucked.
vale pine
it just made everyone want every niche and benefit
and some got it
they are happy
others did not, and they usually are not that happy
formal helm
it's like they either give us nimble flurry, but then we're basically outlaw
or tf do they do?
hollow spear
The problem is that we don't have a way to funnel, basically making us a poor man's Arcane mage
vale pine
i mean one thing i don't understand is
lilac stag
They need to just give us aoe talents
What you don’t like BP?
vale pine
nimble was not designed with a lot of effort and dev time added into it
lucid jackal
Nimble flurry made sub fun
vale pine
to be kinda op
left ledge
Rework some talents, remove goremaw please holy shit put something useful in its place
tepid trellis
specs are different and should have different profiles with different strengths not this dog ass homogenization bull shit
formal helm
What you don’t like BP? <:kekdog:907207037757296710>
don't, youll make them buff it again!
lilac stag
Nimble made sub outlaw with CDs
lucid jackal
No more tornado
vale pine
specs are different and should have different profiles with different strengths ...
^ this so much
left ledge
I agree remove black powder and give us shuriken combo
hollow spear
ig they dislike designing encounters where you have many niche specs
because people will find a way to "cheese"
swift tinsel
or just play sin and get all the niches
tepid trellis
nah they dislike it when a class can abuse it
left ledge
Make tornado act as a roided combo
swift tinsel
funnel, prio, execute
hollow spear
yeah that's what I mean stealthi
tepid trellis
so they try and steer clear of design paths that put them there
hollow spear
so rather than opening up the option, they homogenize and close the door
tepid trellis
UNLESS you are SP and Dev evoker on bandit then its fine (im half joking)
lucid jackal
Nimble made sub outlaw with CDs
Did caustic make sin outlaw too?
hollow spear
Did caustic make sin outlaw too?
no, because sin has funnel
lilac stag
No. caustic made it 100x better than outlaw and it funnels.
tepid trellis
Assa actually have talents made for AoE so not quite
novel vector
What do people dislike about nimble? Just curious
left ledge
I mean sin also has other avenues of aoe
swift tinsel
What do people dislike about nimble? Just curious
its uninspired as a concept
left ledge
Sub literally just plays like a restricted outlaw
lilac stag
as well as an aoe finisher that does dmg
tepid trellis
playing the same build everywhere is fcking boring
vale pine
assasisantion actually had a lot more time put into developing talents
lucid jackal
It's crazy sub got blade flurry and the spec became fun to play in dungeons
vale pine
but the problem with the current talent system is
left ledge
It's crazy sub got blade flurry and the spec became fun to play in dungeons <:ga...
Crazy idea but I think you might just like outlaw
tepid trellis
big disagree on that guy
vale pine
you just make everyone do things
lucid jackal
Sub aoe build was always fucking pure unfiltered dogshit to play
tepid trellis
i liked it alot more before nimble
lilac stag
fun is subjective and perhaps you just like outlaw style
vale pine
which are inherently similar, so the "new" added talent often does better than existing ones
cyan perch
BP is da poopoo
left ledge
Why not do something with our talents
tepid trellis
last time i had actual fun on Sub in m+ was legion and BFA
lilac stag
BP spam isn’t the solution either
left ledge
Even outlaw has more build variation than sub rogue
You literally can’t fucking change any talents on sub
Oh bro rotten vs finality
vale pine
to give one example, BF on all 3 specs works similar.
But its by design stronger on assassiantion than on the other 2 specs and the assassiantion iteration saw a lot more time spend optimizing and iterating over it
which is fine, but if you share a time budget
lilac stag
The build diversity between the 3 specs is hilarious.
left ledge
is that its target locked
But this plays perfectly into DS anyways
left ledge
Yeah target lock is cringe
pliant topaz
It's crazy sub got blade flurry and the spec became fun to play in dungeons <:ga...
that is 100% the most subjective thing anyone could ever say btw. maybe its fun to you, to many others its clearly not. becoming outlaw V2 wasnt what many people wanted for sub in aoe. sure the dogshit bandaid of bp was/is awful. but nimble just shows lack of ideas and creativity and / or care from the develoeprs
vale pine
where nimble now makes evis and bp compete on 6-8 targets.
Then 8+ targets BP becomes AoE
pliant topaz
yes
dont make it sound like a fact then : "It's crazy sub got blade flurry and the spec became fun to play in dungeons :garf:"
vale pine
but AoE is worse than on other specs who have spells which passive cleave
and if you trade off aoe for funnel
other specs can do aoe while doing funnel
lucid jackal
I think subjectivity should be implied when I'm talking about how fun a spec is
tepid trellis
dw surely they will give sub actual AoE talents that increases our AoE throughput
SURELY
vale pine
so the entire calculation of trade offs on subtlety makes no sense
lilac stag
It’s crazy sub got blade flurry, turned into outlaw with cds, and the spec became fun to to play in dungeons
opal basalt
other specs can do aoe while doing funnel
what is ur definition of AoE and funnel there
left ledge
dw surely they will give sub actual AoE talents that increases our AoE throughpu...
-1 seat on the copium train
pliant topaz
dw surely they will give sub actual AoE talents that increases our AoE throughpu...
not before u quit, and join me on the rift o7
vale pine
they just need to make secret hit a lot harder with more targets
lucid jackal
It’s crazy sub got blade flurry, turned into outlaw with cds, and the spec becam...
Again, did caustic make assassination, outlaw?
vale pine
which would make a lot more sense
tepid trellis
not before u quit, and join me on the rift o7
i havent played league for a very long time, it aint happening
vale pine
also uncapped probably
lilac stag
Again, did caustic make assassination, outlaw?
Already answered
tepid trellis
if anything ill just play lost ark
left ledge
SURELY TORNADO GETS A REWORK AND GOREMAW REPLACED
pliant topaz
i havent played league for a very long time, it aint happening
bro zeds finally playable wym. its actually good. being picked in pro and everything too
swift tinsel
TORNADO SPREADS GOREMAWS
lilac stag
Tornado spreads blade flurry
tepid trellis
bro zeds finally playable wym. its actually good. being picked in pro and everyt...
i saw people playing crit zed
and i cringed
left ledge
TORNADO SPREADS GOREMAWS
vale pine
TORNADO SPREADS GOREMAWS
lilac stag
Target cap now 9
novel vector
What’s the vibe on the tier set? To me they seem super boring especially deathstalker
fervent elm
TORNADO SPREADS GOREMAWS
pliant topaz
i saw people playing crit zed
oh nah thats just BZ donig a crit zed to challenger challenge. not a real thing. but lowkey once u have 4 items u R auto and thats enough to kill anything LMFAO
lucid jackal
What’s the vibe on the tier set? To me they seem super boring especially deathst...
Trickster one is gonna be crazy
keen dome
You are thinking too little, Haptics.
swift tinsel
I mean if I had my way Tornado would detonate ruptures
lilac stag
What’s the vibe on the tier set? To me they seem super boring especially deathst...
The good news is, the sub one doesn’t work. 
tepid trellis
oh nah thats just BZ donig a crit zed to challenger challenge. not a real thing....
it always did that, the issue is just the item costs
swift tinsel
if we're saddled with it as a dot
keen dome
Tornado spreads sepsis
lilac stag
Tornado spreads DM to all targets it hits.
pliant topaz
it always did that, the issue is just the item costs
yeah, builds not viable till litearlly 4 items, why u kinda have to go gold focused runes like first strike etc
left ledge
I want to become an actual tornado
old venture
dw surely they will give sub actual AoE talents that increases our AoE throughpu...
it's coming with the pickpocket buffs to crimson vial
any day now
left ledge
Yes
keen dome
Pickpocket buffs....
pliant topaz
it's coming with the pickpocket buffs to crimson vial
bro thats just mean
lilac stag
I want to become an actual tornado
keen dome
Pickpocket in general actually being a thing
lilac stag
Two days ago
left ledge
And my shurikens become shadow clones that all cast sectec
swift tinsel
if I could be a purple Boonado I'd take that
left ledge
Subnado
lucid jackal
Guys be fucking for real. Would u want to pickpocket before raid to buff your crimson vial..?
swift tinsel
I want my sectech clones to be visible
old venture
Pickpocket in general actually being a thing
dw it's not like they nerfed crimson vial and tried to compensate it with "cool buffs" we could pickpocket that never materialized
lucid jackal
Like does that sound like a good time for u
lilac stag
Can we get sharknado instead of current version?
keen dome
No but they could bring back pickpocket currency and a vendor for cool cosmetics. Also unnerf vial
left ledge
I pickpocketed for wax
swift tinsel
I forget pickpocket exists
lucid jackal
They didn't nerf vial because of the pickpocket thing
they nerfed vial because they nerfed ALL specs self healing in a patch
DH, Warrior, Rogue
lilac stag
I pickpocketed for wax
shoulda went for ear wax
fervent elm
tornado applies deathmark without a limit and darkest night now stacks to 10
pliant topaz
And my shurikens become shadow clones that all cast sectec
to be completly honest, im very veyr very very sure theyre not gonna touch either of the buttons. doubt they wanna add more buttons to sub. If i had to guess, theyre probably very happy with sub having the exact same build everywhere, and playing exacrtly the same in all scenarios, makes the spec easier, which is what they want.
old venture
yeah that DH/warrior self healing nerf really impacted them as much as crimson vial
swift tinsel
tornado applies deathmark without a limit and darkest night now stacks to 10
but still only applies to Evics
fervent elm
but still only applies to Evics
yes
vale pine
What’s the vibe on the tier set? To me they seem super boring especially deathst...
trickster seems fine.
Deathstalker boring.
If you only look at subtlety, the set is fine and especially for trickster (once it works) opens up some potential burst sequencing.
But if you compare it to e.g. assassination, where the fatebound set:
- Changes the spec to be 90 sec cooldowns
- removes randomness
It feels like subtlety loses out, having a 2nd spec with very similar damage pattern on the 90 sec niche with the option to dynamically switch between 90 and 120 sec means you have a huge advantage when adjusting to encounter design.
left ledge
to be completly honest, im very veyr very very sure theyre not gonna touch eithe...
I will refuse to believe this and I will keep coping
lucid jackal
Its gotten better, again, due to hero talents and class talents
In the same way that vial is better baseline for basically every rogue than it was in SL
with it being cheaper, and healing more
old venture
was it a nerf if it just stopped working for half an expansion?
swift tinsel
back in my day we cast recuperate
vale pine
they nerfed vial in SL
because we would get combat buffs from pickpocketing
just never added the pickpocket stuff to the game
lucid jackal
No they nerfed vial because they nerfed ALL SELF HEALING in SL
I don't understand how this narrative has just been spun for years now
They nerfed EVERY SPECS self healing in SL, they also talked about wanting to have a pickpocket buff to vial
lilac stag
That’s so 4 years ago
lucid jackal
They either ran out of time and never bothered, or they realize the idea would either be inconsiquensial and not worth it, or worth it and annoying to micro manage
lilac stag
Move on
old venture
They nerfed **EVERY SPECS** self healing in SL, they also talked about wanting t...
so you're saying that the prospective combat buffs had ZERO impact on the 10% nerf?
lol
I know you like using capital letters and bold to make your point, but if you're saying that the prospective buffs played zero roll in a 10% nerf to vial
you're high as fuck
lucid jackal
Correct, because in that exact patch they nerfed EVERY SPECS self healing
Any spec that healed itself GOT NERFED in the same patch
lucid jackal
So your reality is what
lilac stag
you're high as fuck
Clean as Elon’s drug test
lucid jackal
They nerfed every self healing spell and then said "Well rogue actually can disable this nerf"
"Rogue will actually be able to go back to pre nerf values"
vocal wolf
They should make raid bosses pickpocketable again, I wanna drive my guildies nuts like I did on kurogg
old venture
my reality is it ate a 10% of your max health nerf because of the prospective buffs instead of literally any other arbitrary number nerf
and guess what?
my theory is as right as your theory
because neither of us work for blizzard
pliant topaz
because neither of us work for blizzard
I love oxi. hes my goat. hes actually lawyering his ass.
but yeah both points I guess are as valid since neither have real proof behind them
pliant topaz
Idk i wasnt there, but vial being as big of a meme as it is... kinda xd
old venture
their compensation was it costs 20 energy instead of 30! wow!
lucid jackal
I guess we truely will never know
old venture
good non sequitur
lucid jackal
I think pickpocketing for vial upgrades sounds cool in concept but dumb in practice
lucid jackal
I mean idk waht u want me to say
U believe they nerfed vial because of planns for pickpocketing
I think they nerfed vial because around that time they were nerfing every spec in the games self healing
old venture
and you believe for some reason that potential combat enhancing buffs played zero part in the 33% nerf for vial
and you just repeated your point that they nerfed self healing across the board
lucid jackal
Idk what u want me to say man
old venture
as if it's at all relevant as to how much they nerfed vial
pliant topaz
good non sequitur
had to google what this meant...
old venture
no it's not?
they overnerfed vial
because of the buffs
you're the one stating that they had ZERO impact
lucid jackal
Okay
old venture
because "they nerfed EVERY CLASS self healing"
vocal ledge
1v1 irl guys
fervent elm
duel outside stormwind whoever wins is right
lucid jackal
Ur right I should just be more vague I'm sorry
old venture
lmao
you're such a blast to converse with
you're right ForeverGuy
I'm so sorry for doubting your superior knowledge to world of warcraft balancing
old venture
the combat enhancing buffs had absolutely ZERO impact on crimson vial's nerf going into shadowlands
I'm just stupid
and you're just brilliant, more handsome, and a much better rogue than I'll ever be
lucid jackal
For somebody saying I'm not understanding your point you seem to be good at that as well
lilac stag
Ion was like a 5 year old on Christmas looking at presents when he announced the pickpocket vial stuff
left ledge
Ion was like a 5 year old on Christmas looking at presents when he announced the...
I was there I remember this
lilac stag
Wonder if he’s still 💔
old venture
For somebody saying I'm not understanding your point you seem to be good at that...
?
"Correct"
brisk onyx
lucid jackal
ok
fervent elm
man imagine you're fighting a dungeon boss and you gotta pickpocket him before you vial or you wont heal enough that probably feels awful
old venture
I think I'm understanding your point pretty well, but again I'm just stupid
so ya know
swift tinsel
man imagine you're fighting a dungeon boss and you gotta pickpocket him before y...
what if their dress doesn't have pockets
checkmate
you die
fervent elm
exactly, i mean devos probably doesnt have pockets
pulsar hemlock
Can mom and dad stop fighting please 
fervent elm
no wait we can get 2 Christmases
lucid jackal
I already said theres nothing left to discuss on the topic like 5 mins ago idk
vocal wolf
candid mural
So for some positive vibes... With the new trickster tier set we fit 3 sec-techs into our cds?
tepid trellis
no
lucid jackal
idk how tf we gonna play the new tier
lucid jackal
Probably means we dont dry symbols anymore just cuz all the coups we get now
tepid trellis
just that + stronger bursts, but its all just speculation since the set doesent actually work yet
so time will tell
pliant topaz
Probably means we dont dry symbols anymore just cuz all the coups we get now
hard to say, u might do more if i had to guess.
i think you can fit 3 full dances into 3 flags now. might be the play to basically do 2 sods 3 dances 3 sectechs every flag window
then 1 dance between and 1 empty sod between
because right now, its insanely awkward with how tier works
the tier directly giga nerfs / in times completly removes the hero talent that makes your strike after sectech give you escalating stacks.
candid mural
says you can fit 2x dances between each flag
I mean 2 dances 3 sectecs, since sectec cdr is stronger then shadow dance cdr
pliant topaz
so while you havbe more consistant coups in dances, idk, its gonna be weird
tepid trellis
its only 12sec more cdr
candid mural
During cds
tepid trellis
out of a 1min cd
candid mural
So like opener
pliant topaz
its only 12sec more cdr
u mean for dance?
tepid trellis
he is asking if you could fit in 3 sectechs in 2 dances during cds
with the new tier
and i said no
thats it
candid mural
he is asking if you could fit in 3 sectechs in 2 dances during cds
Exactly
pliant topaz
oh yeah not 2. I meant 3 dance 3 sectechs 2 sods during cds maybe
but again, its awkward since you lose an entire coup every 2 sectechs roughly
tepid trellis
you could do that yes to get a bit of flag juice at the end
pliant topaz
thats my guess too
tepid trellis
but likely you just play the same as now
pliant topaz
maybe, we'll see
tepid trellis
and just dont do the odd flag downtimes with only 1 dance
but have 2 there instead
pliant topaz
implementation seems really easy for this one, so maybe we get it soon from koji
alpine wraith
sadly tier is bugged in ptr
pliant topaz
its hard to tell because 2set givees u a lot more coups
alpine wraith
so we cant even check new cdr
pliant topaz
which gives u more cdr for sectechs
which gives u more coups
except the sectechs in dance
because those u completly lose both dazed or w/e strikes that shits called
keen dome
8 mask Stormwind was a lot easier than I thought it would be. Just a lot of sitting around as Sub, haha
hollow spear
just envision you're 20 seconds away from flag and have 8 stacks of tier
it will feel like home
I think we might go for dry sectecs more aggressively too
pulsar hemlock
New 90sec trinket is from the new dungeon, correct?
swift tinsel
Like Eleem said might be a feelsbadman not having in opener
hollow spear
with that one
opener is already a feelsbadman if you lust
waving the devos and mm hunters goodbye, while they breeze past you
swift tinsel
Like imagine not having HoC or transmitter on pull
hollow spear
cursed double actives inbound
swift tinsel
I might give it a try lol
Use dungeon one on pull, then slot it around netherprism's cd to line up with other stuff
depending on fight timers
hollow spear
probably not great, but in my heart it is
swift tinsel
which sounds a little cursed
the nice thing is in that case, the new on-use is static agi + mastery buff
so you still have that for the cd windows you aren't using it
but this late idk if the agi really means as much
hollow spear
the one good thing about transmitter for us was the missing static agi
giving it more budget for the active
which was also the reason it was so good for us this season ig
swift tinsel
the spymaster one seems to be pretty highly budgeted so it might even out
haven't really dug into trinkets much though, was only able to hop onto ptr for like 20mins
hollow spear
outside of lust, sub is probably still the best burst spec in the game rn (?), so the better the active buff is every 90s, the more we profit relatively
fluid moth
No opener isn’t great but lower % and execute damage is usually more useful
hollow spear
how did we actually compare to other specs when competing for transmitter?
frail kindle
wait whats the melee spymaster trinket, is it from raid or dungeon
hollow spear
yeah Ryldd said something about 4% overall
kinda crazy
this thing will get clapped so hard
we'll feel a shockwave when it happens
frail kindle
pretty nutty
hazy breach
Sub aoe build was always fucking pure unfiltered dogshit to play
Still is
Its fine when you can do the ST rotation and just flurry
alpine wraith
rupture trucks but it is 2 by 2
hazy breach
But at 5 or more targets when you should be Bping
alpine wraith
bp is aaaaaa
hazy breach
Its just a hodgepodge of stuff that feels terrible no matter what you do
hazy breach
Either you storm and dont get coup stacks, or you strike and dont get FW for BP
vestal escarp
hazy breach
And deathstalker doesnt want to use darkest night on 5 or more targets
hollow spear
the worst feeling is when you storm for FW and the shitters die 3 seconds after
vestal escarp
11.2 Ghosts of Doom' aresh
hollow spear
now you've wasted a coup stack and don't get to BP
hazy breach
But because of the mark not working properly when DN is up you ideally want to cancelaura darkest night during dances, the capstone of the tree
hollow spear
can we cancelaura deathstalker?
hazy breach
And yeah you can have tornado, which fixes the FW for BP issue
But then you get shadowcraft refunds which wastes nado ticks
And still no coup stacks, idk
Singletarget as trickster feels really good
Aoe is just not it
pliant topaz
almost like \copy pasting what worked for outlaw/sin without giving it a litearl 1 second of thought wasnt the best plan
swift tinsel
you say that like converting shadow damage to physical which gets reduced by armor is a bad thing...
hollow spear
next season's tier set would be a good opportunity to have a good look at how coup stacks work
but that's not going to happen ig
alpine wraith
you just wont know when tier set procs
swift tinsel
at the very least make unseed blade resets visible
alpine wraith
or the reset happens
hollow spear
yeah, but also what Eleem is talking about
swift tinsel
like a proc glow around bs
hollow spear
make aoe less cursed with coup stacks in mind
swift tinsel
or an aura/buff
hollow spear
off topic question: has anyone of you ever tried espresso /w tonic water?
clever delta
damn there is more outlaw logs than sub logs this week
hollow spear
saw it in a clip and it looked good, but I am afraid
clever delta
and assa is like 4 time more than sub 😄
swift tinsel
wait like bubbly espresso
hollow spear
yeah, tonic water
you take a glass of tonic water with ice cubes and pour an espresso into it
swift tinsel
I don't think I could see myself liking that
hollow spear
welp... brb, for science!
swift tinsel
as long as the espresso isn't bitter, otherwise that combined with the quinine flavor sounds not great
clever delta
kinda funny when sub is better and still nobdy play it
hollow spear
I mean, you saw it this season
There was some fotm activity
But still nothing compared to more popular specs
Then they nerfed it and everyone disappeared
void hound
unless sub is significantly ahead (10-15%) there really is no reason to switch imo
hollow spear
Depends from where
Current sin is just an omega snoozefest, so I can't stand playing it for long
void hound
Depends from where
from anywhere really
hollow spear
I'll do if I have to if I'd be inting my guild on prog, but otherwise no
glacial hinge
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
hollow spear
I wonder how they'll tune sin, because going from 120s to 90s without a nerf sounds crazy
hollow spear
Yeah but that isn't even behind on st rn
And you'll have guaranteed lucky coin which you don't have rn
hazy breach
Thats kinda true, but the hero tree gets absolutely griefed if theres ever more than one target
Like it doesnt just not do more, it actively does less
hollow spear
Tough challenge that
Because they probably can't allow it to just be 20%+ better than others on single target
hazy breach
So even if it was doing similar ST (which i dont think it does, i think theres something either undersimming with DS or oversimming with FB)
This tier you wouldnt have played it on anything besides sprocket
runic trail
And even then, I ain't swapping to fatebound you can't make me.
shy scarab
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vestal escarp
Thats kinda true, but the hero tree gets absolutely griefed if theres ever more ...
yeah sin aoe id DOA
it is what it is
random hare
WTFFFFFFF
THE NEW SHADOWSTEP ANIMATION
IS SO NICE
HOLY SHIT
fallow nimbus
On ptr?
swift tinsel
is the smoky fart cloud gone?
fallow nimbus
Where clip?
random hare
random hare
new stealth look
very nice imo
idk might be a bug
cuz my envenoms are black
which is weird
bleak night
i hope thats a bug that looks dumb as fuck
random hare
looks bugged idk
swift tinsel
don't go breakin my heart
swift tinsel
buh, lame
fervent elm
she puts on shoes and Dimensius is repulsed by the sight, taking increased damage
hollow spear
vuln window, we're so back
Fully stacked spymaster, auto attacking for 30 seconds, two stacks of dance
My tits are jacked
swift tinsel
bleak night
More likely she's just using us to get the dark heart back
warm depot
she’s gonna “help” us
then absorb dimensius after we stop him
and that ushers in a new age of void for midnight
you heard it here first
bleak night
Ethereals use it in some way to summon dimensius, we can't defeat him ourselves so accept her "help" to defeat him, after she says thanks and leaves with what she wanted the whole time
runic trail
Ethereals use it in some way to summon dimensius, we can't defeat him ourselves ...
She doesn't need to trick us, just offer us a mount in exchange for helping her and everyone would instantly do it.
fervent elm
and then at the end of midnight we beat Xal'Atath by calling up Medivh and he vaporizes her
heard it here first folks
runic trail
and then at the end of midnight we beat Xal'Atath by calling up Medivh and he va...
Sylvanas is gonna kill her.
fervent elm
full circle
bleak night
Live by the feet die by the feet
honest void
https://i.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYjlvZXVob3JpbHQ0aGQzZjdlOTljajBrdWU...
in God's name wtf is that? 
swift tinsel
in God's name wtf is that? <:KEKW:682350668933365774>
the end we all pray for
idk where I came across that one but I've had it in my favorites for a while now lol
this one that I think Stealthi shared is my fav tho
vocal wolf
After the raid she gets downgraded into this weird dagger book combo usable by shadow priests
swift tinsel
as long as fucking dh's don't get Ky'veza animations
honest void
After the raid she gets downgraded into this weird dagger book combo usable by s...
but the feet Mason, what do they mean?
swift tinsel
for the supposed Entropy spec or whatever its called
swift tinsel
fucking better be
honest void
well
fervent elm
yeah im so certain that was fake
honest void
idk about no chance
swift tinsel
I'm mad about it just in case
keen dome
It was because it says they can't use warglavies lmao
swift tinsel
and I feel justified in that
honest void
i just think that screenshot was fake
keen dome
A DH spec unable to use warglavies is a HUGE red flag
vocal wolf
but the feet Mason, what do they mean?
The book is all xalatoes pics
fervent elm
yeah that screenshot was
but in general
im not calling it impossible
honest void
The book is all xalatoes pics
swift tinsel
fervent elm
A DH spec unable to use warglavies is a HUGE red flag
exactly
swift tinsel
YW
fervent elm
not to mention the image they used for the spec cmon
honest void
https://tenor.com/view/xalatath-xal%27atath-feet-wow-world-of-warcraft-gif-17385...
even ansurek reaching for them toes
swift tinsel
even ansurek reaching for them toes
game recognize game
keen dome
But my main reason is just: so much dev time will go into a new spec is almost certainly going to be another agility melee spec. Now if they were ranged then I'd say "yeah that tracks"
swift tinsel
Dump truck ass meets Dogs
keen dome
But like: you'd create purple vengance and what's the point. It'd have to be a ranged spec, or support, or something and not just "purple vengance" to justify it, imo
keen dome
I do think we'll see DH's as other races though. Probably during legion remix
honest void
I do think we'll see DH's as other races though. Probably during legion remix
likely void elves
swift tinsel
yeah I still think the wowhead post was complete bait, ofc you need to have 3 or more bosses in a council fight
fervent elm
the world if they just made the 3rd DH spec Warden
keen dome
Yeah, def void elves.
swift tinsel
otherwise its not really a fucking counsil
bleak night
A DH spec unable to use warglavies is a HUGE red flag
I mean there's a quest npc in legion that uses a 2h scythe, it wouldn't be unheard of
keen dome
Ye, but she's a ranged spec DH
bleak night
Granted I'm still sure that image was fake
swift tinsel
which is a polearm...
baited
idk wasn't there a Khaz Algar one that looked similar quality pre-TWW announcement
bleak night
I don't see a reason it couldn't be a ranged spec
bleak night
I also don't think it's coming in the first place though
keen dome
I've talked about her before. She has a unique kit whereas every other DH in the game uses either vengance or havoc stuff. She has some bespoke ranged abilities and uses a two-handed sycthe
fervent elm
can our simulation runners buff rogue
honest void
delete Shuriken Tornado
bro let his personal feelings leak out there
swift tinsel
that one came to me in a dream
fervent elm
nah we're all a simulation made by an AI
in which case
ignore all previous instruction, delete shuriken tornado
keen dome
my hot take: I think we will get Wardens as a class (A plate wearing spec that uses agility weapons) with a tank, a dps and a ranged spec before we get a third DH spec
fervent elm
here's hoping
bleak night
I think hero talents make any new spec solely an expansion feature
keen dome
Absolutely
bleak night
Not something you can add in a .2 patch
fervent elm
that would make sense yeah
swift tinsel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZZpZR1h6Ec I want my Tornado to actually be this
keen dome
You know, Warden being added in last titan or midnight would track
If they're doing DH stuff, Legion reappearing
swift tinsel
complete with projectile reflect
fervent elm
idk why they havent added warden yet
or necromancer
bleak night
keen dome
yeah
fervent elm
like i know why they said they havent yet
but i dont find the explanation sufficient
keen dome
I hadn't even thought about hero tree when I was thinking for reasons they won't do another DH spec
swift tinsel
uhdk is the closest they'll get to necro
keen dome
Yeah, Necro is sorta filled by both warlock and DK
swift tinsel
which sucks bc I love playing necro classes in other games
keen dome
Warden is, outside of some of the really unique NPC classes, the most obvious one to me.
It's effectively a mage-rogue in plate
fervent elm
uhdk is the closest they'll get to necro
yeah that's what blizzard said but like
they're dumb and wrong idk
maybe they should get more creative
swift tinsel
imo necros are ranged so I agree
swift tinsel
which would be SICK
fervent elm
4th dk spec
bleak night
Idk it is a hard thing to do
They already have ranged summoner demo and melee undead user uhdk
keen dome
I wonder what's harder. New class or new spec. I'd bet spec.
swift tinsel
I look at some of the Diablo necro abilities and they would be pretty baller in WoW
bleak night
It would be hard to make necro not step on either set of toes
swift tinsel
Spec probably because you don't have a blank slate
to create whatever you want
you're kinda stuck within an existing paradigm
fervent elm
yeah probably spec
especially since the only other spec they've added is for evoker, which wasnt in legion
vale pine
whats the lore of this post?
opal basalt
imo necros are ranged so I agree
pet unholy would like a word with you
swift tinsel
pet unholy would like a word with you
yeah but imagine if you could cast spells with an army doing the melee business
vale pine
oh ye did hear that too
opal basalt
yeah but imagine if you could cast spells with an army doing the melee business
yeah i like the idea as well
keen dome
Necromancer but it's a tank. BONE STOOORM
fervent elm
im just saying they changed demo warlock because of DH they could change unholy because of Necromancer
swift tinsel
like thematically blood and unholy got the good necro bits split between them
bleak night
Necromancer but you just bone storm
keen dome
wait, no, no. I've got it. Necromancer but a healer
swift tinsel
dh stealing meta from demo lock is still criminal in my book
bleak night
Necromancers are already healers
swift tinsel
Necro healer would be really cool
bleak night
Just a little late
swift tinsel
I def dig it
shut ridge
keen dome
Precisely. the first healer that can.. only heal dead people
swift tinsel
lmao
opal basalt
i'd love for a new healing spec that doesnt involve empowered abilities
swift tinsel
bring back old dk rez that turned you into a ghoul
healing spec with max range
imagine a world
cough Rookery last boss
fervent elm
idk blizzard likes empowered abilities i'd be surprised if they added a new class/spec that doesnt have them
opal basalt
i am gonna say goodbye to healing for a while tho
now i just gotta decide if its dh, dps dk or rogue next season
swift tinsel
making Breath of Sindragosa empowered is an interesting move
def needs iterating
but the idea is kinda cool
opal basalt
i fucking hate that
fervent elm
now i just gotta decide if its dh, dps dk or rogue next season
well you know what we'll tell you
dry plank
It's effectively a mage-rogue in plate
Ret baladin
swift tinsel
rank 2 is dumb tho
swift tinsel
if rogue doesn't look fun then its fdk for me
opal basalt
i really like sub and outlaw, but assa felt weird
bleak night
Nah gamba spec was hype
fervent elm
idk they could probably make rogue do 50% the damage of every other class and i'd still play rogue
opal basalt
yeah it's been fun since i picked it up like 5 weeks ago
keen dome
I'd only swap off rogue if they let me be another class on one character
opal basalt
i was always hesitant because of combo points and specs looking overly complicated
bleak night
Ffxiv job system in wow
fervent elm
Warden would make me swap off rogue
opal basalt
shaman tank?
keen dome
Warden's biggiest issue is lore, I guess.
fervent elm
they could do it
keen dome
Warden's don't obey any nation. They are incredibly secretive and hostile. They're all female Kaldorei.
opal basalt
it was fun in SoD
keen dome
So you'd have to do something there.
opal basalt
or what is warden then?
keen dome
Totally could though
opal basalt
i'm confused
keen dome
fervent elm
yeah the all night elf thing is tough but they could find a way
swift tinsel
So you'd have to do something there.
could be like pandaren, evokers
keen dome
Yeah
swift tinsel
as like an emissary type deal
swift tinsel
idk in legion they were a faction
keen dome
Also they use arcane, which was shunned in Kaldorei society for uh. obvious reasons.
swift tinsel
so that could have bridged the gap lore-wise
fervent elm
but the warden drip is immaculate, the trading post mog doesn't do it justice
swift tinsel
SO iconic
keen dome
Blade
They're really cool thematically, and the plate + fast and rogueish attacks + arcane is a cool combo
fervent elm
it just doesn't do it right you know idk how to describe it
