subtlety

[vale pine]

and even if it needed attention

you can't

because it would mean sarcaficing somewhere else

[dusk stone]

that part we can actually solve though, the time thing

[vale pine]

how

[dusk stone]

they have to crunch all of them numbers themselves in their own versions or sims

but propose a change and run the numbers on that, they don't have to do the work as much

i would wager a problem is the law of unintended consequences, when someone proposes a talent change here, what often gets overlooked is X or Y unintended consequence

for example you can't buff BP because deathstalker is kind of broken for sub

so that has to get thrown out as an idea because it requires layers of development

[vale pine]

you just discribed part of the complexity of hero talents

[dusk stone]

also, i wouldnt assume the devs actually understand more of the classes problems than the community

not a slight on them, thats just how stuff turns out in games, even large mmos

[vale pine]

its again a time problem

a tc can have hundreds of hours probably thousands

only spezialising for one spec

a dev who needs to work on 6, 8 or even 12 specs

has not the same time to familialize themselves with each of the specs

[dusk stone]

but we do yeah

[vale pine]

well yes, there is the expertise

but its not our decision on how they create their game ^^

they can use the community in a way to support/helpe them

but also can keep it to their internal worldview and ideas

[dusk stone]

no, but offering good suggestions that are visible and well thought out and tested and etc

[vale pine]

i think a good example is the latest addition of subtelty talents

the first dance is a good idea

but the timer is a seemingly internal new concept they had to strap onto it

and it means the initial good idea

is suddenly not good

[dusk stone]

i wouldnt try ideas that complex or short term changes

the 5% aura buff is something you said almost verbatim like two days before

[void ocean]

hell i think timer wouldnt be half as bad if it actually wasnt bugged af

its like 1-2 sec late and with restarts n shit

[vale pine]

i think the timer makes it rly hard to understand the talent

like

think of it as a non subtlety main

how would you decide if tfd is good?

[dusk stone]

i would do the work myself but its a time and experience thing

[vale pine]

even we as mains did look at warcraftlogs and looked up roughly how much resets you get

to understand the power level

[zealous narwhal]

Is echoing void still the recommended corruption?

[vale pine]

i got echoing

[dusk stone]

its too untuitive, most new subs dont read or really understand the whole talent tree

its something for people who play sub for awhile

[void ocean]

im just complaining that i see "leaving combat" on my screen and then have to wait 1-2 sec for tfd to start ticking

[vale pine]

yep

[void ocean]

its probably 1 but it feels like eternity

[vale pine]

i mean you can cheese it

with the macro

[void ocean]

i tried it and it works for me lets say 60% time

[vale pine]

but also only outside of boss fights

and its like.. still a hack

[void ocean]

and if i use the macro and halfway i get out of combat, i lose tfd

[vale pine]

haha ye

its not fun

[void ocean]

its kick in the crotch, spit on the neck kind of fun :d

always remember this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzaNzJnh9l8

"feeling being punched in the dick" 😄

[vale pine]

like inherntly we got a buff

so nice

any more is probably future talks

[dusk stone]

i would not be surprised if why we got it is because we were vocal

[tepid trellis]

doubt

[keen dome]

I said "buff sub" in trade chat every now and then. That might've done something

[north schooner]

thank you for your service

[void ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/im-doing-my-part-serious-stare-gif-11979677

[dusk stone]

i think if you are just completely silent you get abandoned at some point

ofc squeaky wheel gets the grease, if there were 10x as many subs we would get more attention

same thing for visual represetation of that

[keen dome]

Or we might not. Who knows what would happen.

[dusk stone]

better to do something and complain that it didnt happen than to complain about something while doing nothing

[hollow spear]

They could have nuked this channel two months ago

And we would have still gotten this 5% aura buff

It was weird that we got left out during their last tuning run, but they got there eventually

If the 4.6% translate to something like 6-7% due to some pumpers returning, we end up somewhere middle of the pack

After being a top spec end of last season, that's not too bad

[hazy breach]

Which is exactly the goal

They dont want the meta to shift, they want to make non-meta specs less bad

[hollow spear]

Cannot expect to always be top 5

(and yes, I'm talking about raid only)

[tepid trellis]

laughs in mage

[hollow spear]

Are they top 5 in raid rn?

[void ocean]

are we gonna be somewhat decent in keys?

[hollow spear]

If you're not planning to do top top level keys, I'd think so

You'll have the same issues when pugging I guess

[tepid trellis]

on prog they pretty much always have 1 spec that is in top 5

they never fail to overbuff mages

[hollow spear]

Literal hero spec

I just made one

Will start gearing it once I'm back from vacation

[random mason]

isn't it bugged? or is it just a for u

[vale pine]

i don't know anymore whats bugged and whats fixed ^^

[random mason]

it did 10mil over a whole +10 key for me

like total dmg

[vale pine]

sounds low

[random mason]

yeah

that's crit variance amounts of dmg

maybe they just gave the lesser one a bad proc rate so no one uses the greater one

[hardy snow]

The biggest prob for this tier is the tier set. If they would like to see ramping up setting, it should be slow generation, small drop, 2x during dance, 4x during dance+blade/flag, and drop all after blade/flag and restart the cycle. Unstable gain for a spec that has limited and short burst window gives frequent negative feedback, especially when you played with efforts and did nothing wrong.

and ofc blizzard wouldn't admit it and believes what they designed is just COOL

[lucid jackal]

I mean the issue is just we're undertuned

If the spec was tuned 10-15% higher nobody would complain about anything rn

[plain quest]

Agree would recraft instantly

[random mason]

I found some logs of tanks where it did closer to the 1% overall it should do

and it did no dmg in mechagon which was my test dungeon as well

[hardy snow]

undertuning can be seen from different aspects, including aura, talents, trinkets, tier and etc..
Even if the spec got 10-15%, less complaint surely, people would still receive negative feedback on bad luck from tier

[vale pine]

corruption was buggy when it was first introduced

and its funnily enough buggy now

[random mason]

idk i just went the boring one now

kind of a shame

or i managed to somehow be out of range EVERY time it procced apart from one

[lucid jackal]

Every single tier set this tier is "random"

Wow is also just inherently a very random game

[hardy snow]

fire? unholy?

surely random somewhere

but fitting or not is the question

The element of random can be embedded, no problem

[fallow nimbus]

There is fun random and shit random. The melee one just sucks

[hardy snow]

That's dps deviation, not tier thing

[lucid jackal]

How random your tier set is accounts for variance

Variance is a combination of all aspects of the spec

[hardy snow]

they have their randomness from system and they complain about talents.
we have our randomness from tier and we complain about tier.
What's the problem?

[lucid jackal]

I think people overstate how random the Tier set actually is statistically

[random mason]

I think people don't really understand the effect of stacked random chance

Damage ranges, crit, random buff or dmg procs..

It's so much in so many events that it evens out in the end

[fallow nimbus]

When the set is gone before next cds it feels bad and that's about it

[random mason]

but on tier set specifically, unholy can force their 20 stacks of winning streak every 45 seconds

[hardy snow]

and on listed 37 dps specs, sub is on top 10.

[vale pine]

randomness is a big part of the game

[random mason]

so.. upper 25%?

would it feel a lot better in lower 25%? I'd argue no

[shrewd lantern]

twilight dev dev does like 2%

also its a funny besm

[lucid jackal]

The diff between 3.8 variance and 3.4 variance is not really going to be something you notice

It's not like sub is significantly higher variance than sin lol

To me, sin feels significantly higher variance than sub does, yet statistically sub is somehow higher so

[vale pine]

thats because of crit

having most damage in cooldowns makes critical strike impact higher

we don't run super high crit chance, so the variance goes up

[random mason]

you also run cold blood for the biggest hitter tho

[vale pine]

thats true, but not your only cast of secret ^^

[hazy breach]

Its got "you cant lose stacks during cds" built into it, so ye its not very rng at all

[random mason]

yeah for ~half of em you have it

[lucid jackal]

Well I get why in a literal sense it's just like

The moment to moment gameplay, sub feels consistent

[vale pine]

true

[shrewd lantern]

because sub doesnt have an rng resource generation

[lucid jackal]

Meanwhile playing sin feels omega tilting because it's general resource gain is significantly different based on mut procs

[hazy breach]

Only thing that feels bad is not getting coup during your opener

[hazy breach]

It very much has

It just doesnt feel like it

[shrewd lantern]

with shadowtech?

still feels much less

[hazy breach]

Yes

[shrewd lantern]

than seal fate/blindside procs

[hazy breach]

And unseen blade resets

[lucid jackal]

Facts don't care about your feelings

[hazy breach]

The opener problem can be "solved" by having disorienting strikes up on pull

But its clearly unintended that its indefinite and lasts through death

[random mason]

i mean they could just make it come from stealth

[shrewd lantern]

im a bit surprised fury is that low

but ig most of its gameplay loop is consistent

[hazy breach]

Which also makes wipes where you cant use a sectech before you die feel bad

[random mason]

like all the other rogue buffs

subterfuge, carnage on assa

crackshot(not really a buff but you know what i'm getting at)

[brittle plinth]

Have we tried running more crit over vers?

[vale pine]

you could, but your damage on average would be lower

[dusk stone]

actual crit chance doesnt go up by much either

25% crit in stats is like 8% raw chance

[echo ridge]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[echo ridge]

hey @vale pine , on sub mid expansion article you've written - you mentioned trickster bug "fazed" as positive bug.

am I correct to assume that the bug is only the parry part and not the 5% increased dmg for entire raid?

[hollow spear]

Didn't even know that was a thing 😅

[hollow spear]

Correct. Only the parry is raidwide.

[vale pine]

only parry yes

its raid wide

unless they hotfixed it

[exotic kelp]

does it matter if you, dance backstab symbols, vs, dance symbols backstab, have a guildy trying to tell me its the first, and im not sure the reasoning behind it

[hazy breach]

Th second one is better, because each backstab or shadowstrike triggers inev which extends symbols

Even if you run rotten, but you should generally not be in raid scenarios

[exotic kelp]

epic, ty.

you drop rotten for 1/2 in finality right?

[lucid jackal]

ya

[shell bramble]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lethal thorn]

hmm why is the dungeon slice sim using a crit emb and a vers one but the emb section say 2x dusk

@vale pine ?

[clever delta]

so i need ti sectech something before starting raid boss are you saying 😄

[alpine wraith]

and not use any strike or backstabs

i wish unseen was something with charges and off gcd

that you could use

so you could save them for dance

[random mason]

Actually do trash

[clever delta]

oh not me

[wide sonnet]

how much damage do we lose if we are not behind target?

shadowstrike doesnt care its just backstab i think

[lucid jackal]

A fair amount because you miss out on FW uptime

[zenith prism]

Why is the damage in wcl log different from that in ranking?

[tribal blade]

maybe! i might

but not this reset, most of my gear is very sin oriented atm

[zenith prism]

https://cn.warcraftlogs.com/reports/y63hNfjGYLQ4ZbKV?fight=8&type=damage-done this is my TOP+17 log showing I'm doing 3.74m

this is my ranking showing I'm doing 3.57m

[swift tinsel]

It’s ~3.7%

[zenith prism]

But for assa, it seems that there is no such problem

also my log as assa https://cn.warcraftlogs.com/reports/YBxHbcFGnq342PwD?fight=1&type=damage-done

my assa ranking

related to pets or sth?

[lilac stag]

What is assa oriented? I just crafted a haste/crit ring and have a couple gems to replace.

[tribal blade]

i have x2 crit+mast pieces with dawnthread linings

so i would have too much crit

[lilac stag]

so 2 recrafts or just change the embellish. .

Crit good on sub

at least at our ilvl

[warm marlin]

Sim wants my crafted ring as crit vers

[lilac stag]

Mmhm

[warm marlin]

Other stats get a lot better at 684 with hoc

[tribal blade]

how the fuck

did shadowstep put me over the middle hole of gallywix

on heroic

and kill me

"yeah we fixed it"- blizz

[tribal blade]

yeah it might actually be ok

[hoary lotus]

what renown are we supposed to be?

[neon frigate]

Hey guys, im strugling a bit with PSF at M+ 12 due to aoe with sub. What do you guys do with big packs with a sub bos in it? Do you spam black powder or keep it more single target orientated to kill sub boss more quickly with eviscerate?

[tribal blade]

press BP in mass aoe

you can also spread rupture, but in a 12 i imagine stuff dies kinda fast

if stuff is living a long time spreading rupture is good

[neon frigate]

So you focus aoe with BP and kill sub boss little later? Or is it better for time to kill sub boss quicker with eviscerate and single target combo generator?

How do you spread ruptuur fast?

[tribal blade]

it's pull dependent, like if you're doing a pull with a really high hp prio mob and lots of small shitters, it's better to just evis the prio mob

but if you're doing massive pulls with a ton of mobs that are all dangerous, then BP is generally better

there isn't really a fast way to spread rupture, you gotta just tab and spread

you can spread while the tank is gathering, you can be quite aggressive about it because of tricks

and then once the pull is gathered go into cds

[neon frigate]

I see thanks. But my dmg is so bad compared to ret paladin. Cant keep up. Hope next buff is better

[tribal blade]

yeah that's normal

ret is tuned high and is very easy to play

[lilac stag]

It won’t be. Sub is more of a kill the boss focus type spec. Your CDs are good, but arguably not great in trash. You’re giving up trash dmg to gain ST by playing sub. Running with a shaman (and a warrior) kinda mandatory also.

[dusk stone]

And monk

Preferably druid as well

Dh is ok

[dusk stone]

Are you certain you understand the cd rotation and out of cd rotation?

[rocky ocean]

[vale pine]

Othey are close, embellishments in general are. I just forgot to change the text therr

[tribal blade]

ok so i saw they changed the belt to be socketable

and then i saw a screenshot of the belt with a socket in it already

anyone got concrete info on this

[keen dome]

They talked about it in a blue post. Lemme find it

https://www.wowhead.com/news/patch-11-1-7-ptr-development-notes-stamina-now-on-belt-376957

Stamina and a built in socket added to the Durable Information Storage Container belt.

[tribal blade]

ok awesome

so i don't need to save a socket from vault

[keen dome]

Ye

It's just gonna be a BiS item for everyone going into S3 I guess. iLevel 700, socket, mainstat, some dumb proc

No secondaries I guess? I dunno.

[vale pine]

It's similar to s1 ring in some sense

[keen dome]

Yeah

It's basically the same principle in all ways except it has mainstat.

[tribal blade]

kinda weird to have no secondaries

[keen dome]

Well it has proc stuff on it which probably give them

[tribal blade]

yeah true

[keen dome]

Same as the circlet. No baked in, but player choice? I dunno I'm tired of these items even if I think they're not the worst thing.

Can't we just go back to an artifact, blizz 😠

[tribal blade]

it's just very annoying they're slow releasing power gain

it keeps inflating M+ keys

so we have to keep regrinding key levels

[clever delta]

Be happy that there is something to do

[keen dome]

I don't remember which WoW Podcast said it, but the idea of having titles throughout the season is an interesting idea.

[clever delta]

We reclear in one raid so not much fun left in game

[keen dome]

So you'd have like, Title range from 1 from start of the season to .5. Then .5 to 7, then 7 to the next big patch

[tribal blade]

interesting idea

[keen dome]

Can I interest you in some pet battles

@tribal blade Quick question: easiest 13, in your opinion? ToP?

[clever delta]

I mean I'm paying for game to log in once a week

[tribal blade]

hrm hard to say

[keen dome]

I need like, two? 13's to hit 3k and am trying to figure out the laziest way to do it

I imagine Cinder with competent people would be pretty fucking chill

[tribal blade]

most likely dfc and ml

[keen dome]

Yeah, that makes sense.

Although ML seems cursed

[clever delta]

Rookery is brain dead too

[tribal blade]

yeah ml is lowkey a cursed key

[keen dome]

Yeah but Rookery is cursed for Sub haha

[clever delta]

Why

[tribal blade]

but it's generally easy to time so long as you don't make critical mistakes

[keen dome]

First boss clones

Second boss being a pain in the ass for melee

[tribal blade]

rookery on 13 is very chill

[clever delta]

There is some issues with clones on first boss?

[tribal blade]

when you start adding more key levels to rookery it becomes a tubro hard key

[keen dome]

They can't hit the boss if it's in the middle

[clever delta]

I see

[tribal blade]

yeah clones don't hit boss during intermission

which is so stupid

[keen dome]

Am I right that it's basically got a hard limit 'cos of boss 3?

[clever delta]

I still beat 3.7k boomiw there 😄

[tribal blade]

yes last boss takes fucking forever

on higher keys

[keen dome]

I saw people talking about tit aking 7 - 8 minutes lmao

[tribal blade]

if you don't have an arcane mage yeah

sub is really good on that boss too

you have cd set for every burn

[keen dome]

Ye

Final boss is the only bit I enjoy in that dungeon

[clever delta]

They need to remove this akkari soul already, it's nothing than trouble since df

[tribal blade]

i fucking hate that boss lol

[keen dome]

Make SecTec one-hit and big crit

[tribal blade]

every single time there's a boss like that in M+

[clever delta]

I did like 20 rookery in one day on turbo week

[tribal blade]

every key level you go up the boss starts becoming a nightmare

increasingly nightmare

[keen dome]

ye

I'll try those three next reset then. Gonna wait for the 5% anyway.

[tribal blade]

the trick for rogue is you go sin until 2nd boss is dead

hearth out>swap to sub

i haven't had to do that yet

maybe on 18 and higher

[keen dome]

Yeah I can see the flexibility

[tribal blade]

the 3 pack after 2nd boss is really simple

[keen dome]

I'm just gonna mainline it as Sub 'cos I'm only going for 3k which is like, 13's max and I'm not a pusher.

[tribal blade]

honestly all 13s are piss easy haha

it just depends on the pugs

[keen dome]

12's were absolutely cakewalk yeah

I did all of them in a single afternoon with a buddy

[tribal blade]

if you're doing them as sub i would probably focus on doing top/workshop

because sub is really good in those 2

[keen dome]

Ye

[haughty mural]

Not even 13s in every key is needed for 3k iirc

[keen dome]

Yeah I think I need like two? at most

Maybe three.

[tribal blade]

nah it's like all 12s and 2 13s

something like that

[keen dome]

So I figure two decent 13's or three not decent ones and I'm donezo

[haughty mural]

Do top, workshop and call it a day

[tribal blade]

legit don't look for specific dungeons

look for 13s with a good leader

[haughty mural]

Or that

[tribal blade]

any 13 with competent people will be easy

[keen dome]

Yeee

But there are some real demons around. 3.3k Shaman who died 15 times in a ML. Just standing in stuff, not pushing lust.

Spooky stuff.

I tend to look for off-meta groups too.

'Cos they tend to not only be chiller, but just vaslty more competent players

[tribal blade]

the off meta phys comp is really good

[keen dome]

yeah, that's the dream

[tribal blade]

rivals the meta

you don't have the same control, but the damage is very high

[haughty mural]

Alternatively you wait till buffs on reset

Easier to sell to pugs then

[keen dome]

godspeed, random druid trying to pug your +19 key. I hope you time it.

[keen dome]

Ye I was planning to do that

Also better groups on Weds

[haughty mural]

I’ll recraft too
I’m donezo with my sin arc for keys

I wanna have fun

[keen dome]

Hell yeah Sub rogues

[haughty mural]

[keen dome]

It's a lot of fun doing a key and managing to out DPS 'better' classes.

Good brain chemicals

[dry plank]

But the only option to play your keys. Nobody wants to invite sub

[limpid sage]

I swear shamans are the worst offenders of this

[dry plank]

This buff does not change anything

[limpid sage]

Try not to remove +2 mins off the timer yourself challenge (impossible)

[wild hornet]

i wonder how many patches itll take to get echoing void fixed

[haughty mural]

Idc anymore

I just wanna have rest of the season

[fierce cedar]

5% is still 5%

[haughty mural]

And it is atleast a little bit

[fierce cedar]

yes

5% less shit

[wild hornet]

unfortunately OAB smells like outlaw

as much as i wanna play sub on it

[fierce cedar]

my lesser echoing void did 0.7% over all in my 10 dungeon

either im garbage or something is up

[grand viper]

twilight dev supremacy

[warm marlin]

oab was one of the few fights sub felt strong on during prog

[wild hornet]

did it?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[wild hornet]

it felt like "oh constant cleave... outlaw"

[hazy breach]

You did way more damage to the adds

[warm marlin]

yea I gapped every other melee on reel assistant damage

And premium dynamite

[wild hornet]

do you send flag on pull

[hazy breach]

Since you can choose to just hold all of your dances for adds

[warm marlin]

yes

[fierce cedar]

let the kids kill the ads and nuke the boss

[warm marlin]

well that’s the assa strat

[wild hornet]

does that include or exclude the 2nd dance

for flawless sec

i havent checked anything too deep for sub on that boss yet

my sprocket damage was depressing enough

[hazy breach]

What

[wild hornet]

like

[hazy breach]

You just dont send any dances on boss and do big add damage

(besides the first)

[wild hornet]

yeah was asking that, thanks

[hazy breach]

But you can hold the first for a few seconds too if you really want, but typically those die fast anyway

Since everyone has cds

[wild hornet]

ill check some logs in this case

and feelycraft on pull

see what works

hope this doesnt turn out like rik where i cant do shit on whatever cd timing i do

[warm marlin]

what is the prog strat anymore anyway

are people still spawning the premium bombs at 1:35

[wild hornet]

pretty sure yeah

[hazy breach]

Would definitely recommend not doing that

If you can, despite it making sub way less valueable

[hollow spear]

What were the premium ones?

[warm marlin]

Like 8 cc immune adds with 100M hp each that fixated random raid members

Made melees in general look good since it was mostly burst cleave

Sub was the best spec for it since u would hold vanish to guarantee dodging the fixate plus they spawned as flag came up basically

[haughty mural]

Now they evaporate before sectech clones hit

I‘d guess

[clever delta]

i was looking at galliwix

and you basically hold cds for first adds and than it line up with every set of adds

kinda crazy

[opal basalt]

On DH discord we're saying don't use echoing void due to some proccing issue

does the same go for sub? and if so, which corruption am i using then?

[vale pine]

yes

it seems buggy

i went with void ritual

[opal basalt]

aight, ty very much. didn't see that post

[coarse hound]

Yeah but what if I want to shoot lazers out my ass

[vale pine]

i did hear some of the proc enchants pull randomly

but well

corruption had the same issue back then

you can go gushing for pure st which is probably a secure pick

or void ritual

[coarse hound]

yeah tol dagor was hilarious

with twilight dev

[vale pine]

tanks loved corruption

it was fun for them

to outdps most dd's in keys

i remember some groups running 5 tank combos even

it was a wild time

[opal basalt]

on my dh i'm running lesser stars and i love the thingies flying down from the sky

[vale pine]

the current enchants are just too weak

they feel pointless

[coarse hound]

I was Assass back then I wish infinite stars had a better visual

[opal basalt]

they should scale with max health again

make tanks great again

[vale pine]

haha

i think corruption works as a end of xpac system

[opal basalt]

they're putting so much random power into this patch

[vale pine]

because you can bring completley overpowered stuff for people to have fun

but this patch is mid xpac

[opal basalt]

but letting us buy a myth track HoC is a no go

[vale pine]

its like 1% from minor, 2% from major

so its rly weak

[coarse hound]

that tier was ok, I just have PTSD from coming home for work tuesday and having to upgrade my fucking cloak before raid

[opal basalt]

hahaha

[coarse hound]

it was tight timing

[opal basalt]

i didn't REALLY play back then

i just remember using TD on my bdk

and that was brrr

not even high level, but it looked fun and did tons of dam

[hollow spear]

These enchants have to stay until end of expansion I guess

[keen dome]

The corruption ones? They turn off with S3 iirc

[fallow nimbus]

The enchants are there so everybody does atleast the minimum of visions

[tribal blade]

blizz moved away from borrowed power being strong recently

to the point it's kinda w/e

[keen dome]

But they kinda didn't, too? It's weird

Like: Circlet is borrowed power and it's lasted so long

And I bet the belt'll be the same

But I don't personally think borrowed power is bad, it's just the AP grind issues and 'chore' stuff that muddies it

With the worst examples of it

[hollow spear]

Even circlet is far away from being what borrowed power used to be

[hazy breach]

Tier sets are borrowed power too, but nobody minds that

[hollow spear]

The ilvl boost was just over the top imo

I kinda mind

[hazy breach]

Its just that it was an overload of multiple borrowed power systems so it got too much for people

[hollow spear]

If they're just extra damage without meaningful change

[hazy breach]

Ilvl boost is like the best way to do it imo

[hollow spear]

Makes balance unnecessarily harder

[steady dune]

yeah i was not a fan of the ilvl bump, just another way to get extra "engagement" back into the game with peopel farming crests

[hazy breach]

Well its more fun than a new circlet, a flat nerf to raid and keys or a passive buff

[hollow spear]

It just feels different if they give you ilvl rather than nerfing the raid

[opal basalt]

You getting stronger is always gonna be more positively received than the hardest content you’re doing being nerfed. Sounds like simple psychological stuff.

[fierce cedar]

man im so used to consistent damage specs that bursting feels like cheating lmao

[opal basalt]

Sub really reminds me of old UH

[fierce cedar]

4.3m st in dungeon isnt too bad ngl

im by no means a great but im pretty happy with that

[opal basalt]

I like those big bursts that you hold CDs for etc., cool playstyle that blizzard sadly isn’t too fond of anymore

[fierce cedar]

i do like it too

but im a bit sad when cds are down

[opal basalt]

Looking forward to my first Motherlode. Gonna hold the big shit for first dmg amp phase and then just pop off

[fierce cedar]

hell yeah

though there is a little bit of a ramp ig

not sure if you have time to reach your full potential in that window

[hazy breach]

In theory MOMMA should be good too but the damage requirement for the adds is a bit too steep

[fierce cedar]

mm

those flying fekker sure are tanky

[hazy breach]

The bombs should be ~20s if you milk it

[opal basalt]

I’ll just let the UH in my grp pull cooldowns for adds

[fierce cedar]

that would be plenty true

i think its around 10 seconds to reach your max dps right?

ah wait it would be closer to 20

[sharp lake]

We hit max dps after the second sec tech in our burst which is global 16. So yeah around 20 seconds

[fierce cedar]

👍

[tribal blade]

yeah fair point

[tribal blade]

yeah every time i've played momma as sub it doesn't feel good

sin works WAY better

[summer meadow]

Is poison choice situational or are there clear choices?

[keen dome]

I imagine you also get good prio via the adds, too?

[tribal blade]

as sin yes

[keen dome]

Ye, as sin.

[hazy breach]

Like in theory if you have a group that could kill the adds like 10s after the shield goes up everytime as sub

You would destroy boss dps, but you would do very little on the adds

So its not great either way

[lapis dune]

big stealthi fan

[fierce cedar]

i just send it

unless in know things will die very fast

[hazy breach]

Since the shield appears 60s after the adds spawn, and thats ~15s after the shield breaks

[lilac stag]

so clearly sub needs to aoe spread rupture via tornado and then we are able to funnel bleed damage into a prior target.

[fierce cedar]

i dont like tornado

just feels weird

[lilac stag]

it’s a joke. We’re stealing assa talents

[hazy breach]

Tornado is prime for a echoing/bonespike type rework

[lilac stag]

Since assa takes everything

and tornado is useless

[tribal blade]

the bonespike rework was 10/10

really, really well done

[keen dome]

Yes please

[fierce cedar]

i miss the mega kingsbanes though

[tribal blade]

if only they would put that much thought into sub talents

[hazy breach]

But in general sub needs any attention towards its aoe gameplay loop, its very clearly been neglected for a while

[tribal blade]

i think keep replicating

and then replace nado with

sectec spreads 1 additional rupture to a nearby enemy per active rupture

[hazy breach]

Since most talents work only on backstab/strike and not storm

And the dance timings end up completely different and you end up with not enough symbols charges

Compared to st where you have more symbols than dance etc

(the internet on my train is sus so my messages get all split and delayed)

[tribal blade]

imagine if you spread like 6 ruptures

you go into cds, cast 1st sectec and now you have 12 ruptures out

2nd sectec you have 24 ruptures out now

[fierce cedar]

1 rupture then spread to all enemies in one cast

[hazy breach]

I dont think sub should be about spreading bleeds at all, the ramp from flag and flawless should be enough imo

[lilac stag]

and while I like the aoe rupture thoughts, rupture is the one thing we do out of cds.

[fierce cedar]

i dont like dots all that much so

[lilac stag]

Flag needs to go away

[fierce cedar]

i wouldnt mind flag is it was just an effect on you

[tribal blade]

i would be down for less rupture gameplay

[lilac stag]

One 90sec cd is enough

put the power back in dance

[tribal blade]

i would really like sub to go back to dance being our mega juiced thing

like back in the day

[lilac stag]

The amount of time in dance right now feels about right. The CDR getting there is too tight. The amp from dance is too low.

[tribal blade]

i do not like the feeling of dances outside of cds not feeling very impactful

[lilac stag]

because dance is too weak

[vale pine]

dance is a supprot spell now

or lets say enabler

[lilac stag]

You almost make the spec infinitely easier to understand. Dance is your CD. Not why do I have dance sod flag

[tribal blade]

incoming fuu bake blades into dance

[vale pine]

rupture is fine as is, its a way to make the rotaiton not too simple

[lilac stag]

sod should be the modifier in dance

ie supercharging

[vale pine]

there is a lot of qol or simplification you can do

[lilac stag]

The flow chart of cd timings and power is fubar

[fallow nimbus]

All the cds we have could be baked into dance

[fierce cedar]

how many ruptures do i even want

[hazy breach]

Yes

[fallow nimbus]

Sectec as a stealth finisher would be nice

[hazy breach]

If theyre not dying soon and youre not in dance they should have rupture

[fierce cedar]

fair enough

[fallow nimbus]

Entering dance/stealth gives you 1 use of sectec

[vale pine]

every target that survives longer gets a rupture, ofc only outside of dance

[fierce cedar]

👍

[tribal blade]

you could make both camps happy and give sin replicating

and then give sub something else

[fierce cedar]

or ignore the problem and hope people forgets about it

[fallow nimbus]

How much do you bet that assa takes another thing in 12.0 while sub and outlaw get nothing more than half assed minimalistic overhauls of outdated obsolete junk talents?

[tribal blade]

that could actually be a positive change to sin, make IC you spread 3 garrotes and ruptures 6 secs after breaking stealth, and then outside of that window you spread 2 ruptures

[tribal blade]

given recent history that would likely be the case

[fallow nimbus]

Like you said, i can see assa getting a simpler dot spread outside stealth. You know to make it not need restealths between packs

[tribal blade]

that would be a very good change

[fallow nimbus]

Maybe some deathmark cd reduction to 1.5min

[tribal blade]

and then sub gets combo back

🙂

make sub the melee arcane mage

it's time

[fleet wharf]

Isnt it better for us to have different cd timers

[fallow nimbus]

That will never happen

[tribal blade]

well people say that will never happen

but look at all the specs with crazy funnel right now

[fallow nimbus]

We got zul'ed

[tribal blade]

if they really still hang on to that belief from 5 years ago, they're truly lost

[fallow nimbus]

If arcane had busted zul then noving would have happened

[tribal blade]

but this is the blizz devs we're talking about, i dunno why i'm putting faith in them

[fallow nimbus]

Something like dance cdr removed, 1 or 2 charges with 30sec cd but under blades spend cp prolong the duration

Of dance

Sectec as a big stealth finisher

[keen dome]

Ye

I feel like there's a load of routes they could take that'd be rad to see. That, blades into dance, etc.

[fallow nimbus]

If we need to press a cd then flag and blades should be 1 button

[keen dome]

I've decided my two biggest wishlist items are now Posion toggle, obvs. But also Smoke Bomb PvE button. 5s DR + LoS or something on a balanced cooldown

[fallow nimbus]

Poison toggle would be nice

[keen dome]

Or a choice node where it's between DR like Darkness or an LoS

Poison toggle would be a decent QoL for the entire class. Honestly you could apply it to most things. Class buffs, etc. Bin the 60 minute duraiton and just have them be aura or toggles.

[fallow nimbus]

LoS could be trouble but if it works only for nonboss mobs it could be huge utility

[hazy breach]

Theyre gonna rework stealth anyway. Its like the main thing everybody complains about

And it makes solo play feel horrid

[keen dome]

Yeah, I think having it only work on non-boss would be a good caveat.

[hazy breach]

Like ye its possible to time your vanishes, but its annoying

[keen dome]

The sharpshooters in Priory, the firsg few packs in DFC. Those two make me think about a LoS ability a lot

[fallow nimbus]

Like smoke guys while others are outside to target abilities

[fallow nimbus]

Gw2 thief kind of stealth?

[hazy breach]

I have no idea how that works, but it is the main thing that always get brought up a lot in every reddit/forum post about rogues

How you cant do delves and the like because you need to vanish and restealth etc

And sure you can say "skill issue", but if theres that many people that are having issues with it theres probably a better solution that isnt frustrating for most players

[vale pine]

i haven't rly had many problems with stealth

so i assume everyone is assassiantion and outlaw

when they need to restealth in keys

[swift tinsel]

The only one that comes to mind for me at least for sub was Mists maze

[vale pine]

to be fair i can see why they might want to rework it

stealth is a mess in general, and has so many bugs

so might be more of a thing they want to change to make development/maintenance easier

[tribal blade]

i will always not be a fan of them tying power to stealth/vanish

it creates incredibly cumbersome gameplay

and it's extremely punishing

as well as straight up you not being able to activate certain things because of encounter types not allowing you to go into true stealth, etc

[fierce cedar]

yeah big sad

[tribal blade]

i don't think any other class in the game has to deal with this kind of problem

hunters did have a similar type issue with pets, but blizz did big changes to fix that stuff

[fierce cedar]

oh idk, pets being braindead is one thing

[fallow nimbus]

Gw2 thief gets short duration stealth from different abilities. It's stackable but there is no infinite stealth.

[tribal blade]

i was thinking specifically of it being super troll for hunters to lust for no reason

and they changed it

[fierce cedar]

i have a feeling they will leave rogue alone for quite a long time

[tribal blade]

i think having power tied to stealth/vanish is a similar problem

[fierce cedar]

maybe buffs here and there but nothing big for a long time

at least thats my prediction

[tribal blade]

it's honestly hard to say, because out of nowhere blizz decided to pump huge amounts of time and effort into shammy for TWW

they went from being one of the most ignored classes to one of the most iterated on

[vale pine]

i am not sure i like stealth as a buff rather than a unique class benefit

would change some of the fundamentals of the class

[graceful crown]

so we're going void ritual now?

[vale pine]

i did

idk what others do

it seems like the most consistent option

[keen dome]

Yeah, I just took VR for now

[graceful crown]

i thought the numbers were a bit low with echoing void too

like it's at flagellation level of low

thought it was meant to be like that but far from a 2% dps increase

i'll swap to it too

[tribal blade]

we have the lesser version right now so none of them will be doing 2%

[graceful crown]

fair, i thought of that too, but since we're still at the lesser option we have some wiggle room to experiment i suppose

[vale pine]

^ its more like 1% with the lesser

[graceful crown]

it was like 0.3% for me

[tribal blade]

echoing void is the one that's underperforming iirc

[graceful crown]

yuh

[umbral topaz]

No gushing wound enjoyers on sub? 😀

[void ocean]

Here

[hollow spear]

They could give each spec its own version of dance (different names and themes, but making it a dps cooldown) which interacts with the core gameplay loop and do away with vanish entirely or make vanish a defensive, like greater invisibility

I'm generally a big fan of fuu's idea to bake blades into dance

[graceful crown]

like a mini version in every dance?

[hollow spear]

Yeah, especially the full cp thing makes it feel satisfying

Would obviously have to tweak numbers, but the idea seems sound

[void ocean]

Yea, otherwise we would probably be top 3 in dps and thats unacceptable

[hollow spear]

You guys make it sound like we haven't been a top melee raid spec from 11.0.5 to 11.1

[limpid sage]

does Numbing Poison work on bosses?

[hollow spear]

Yeah, the last weeks were bad

[void ocean]

Probably cause I didnt play it 🤣

Imho the easiest fix would be to make flag 45 sec cd and its dmg relevant

[hollow spear]

With as many specs as there are, it's just not realistic to be top 3 for long

[granite coral]

Do you want to backstab every SD for danse macabre ?

[void ocean]

Yes

[granite coral]

ty!

[hazy breach]

Yesnt, the auto attack speed reduction works (but generally doesnt stack with other effects) and the cast speed reduction works sometimes, but typically only on like spammable spells

Very rarely it works on other casts too, but thats the exception

Like for example the first boss of RLP had spammable frostbolts on the tank that got increased cast time AND the aoe ticked slower as well

I dont know of any other situation like that but im sure there are

[brittle plinth]

And no melee range req

[wild hornet]

on OAB M, do you need to hold sdance inbetween cds for long or is it a difference of no more than like 5 seconds

im watching a few replays and i cant tell

[limpid sage]

Thanks! Considering swapping to it for raid, but donno if it's worth

[solar charm]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[real panther]

how much crit do we want for keys?

[latent finch]

The dmg reduction poison is nearly always better and it stacks with itself. Yes it does nor work on dmg not caused by the boss but its in most cases better then numbing.

[lucid jackal]

theres some bosses where num,bing is high value

Denathrius, and I think jailer too

but yeah, generally speaking atro is OP

[real panther]

@chrome palm sims for that kind of stuff will only show most dmg output. Not the comfy/easiest way

[bright elk]

Wait it really stacks? I assumed I have to go numbing if the other rogue goes atrophic

[hollow spear]

And what would crit make more comfortable?

[latent finch]

Pretty sure its not supposed but it does yea

[chrome palm]

“Easiest way”? You can put whatever you want in the sim, whether it’s easy or hard to get. Your crit may vary depending on if you’re using pacemaker, jastor, etc

[chrome palm]

It would be more accurate to say it overlaps

[real panther]

We all know that but that was not my question. answer is it's around 22% chance or 10% of stat weight as far as I can tell, I wanted to check if people were matching this. Ofc we sims ourselves and we not necessarily go for the exact number.

[haughty rose]

hey quick q, if a tank shares his route like this: [MDT_v2: Iryut+Onyxia - Priory of the Sacred Flame: Expert Skips: Raider.IO Weekly Route (+13 and up)]", what am i supposed to do with it?

[real panther]

you need mythic dungeon tools to open it

[haughty rose]

ah ok thank you

[hollow spear]

Entirely depends on your other stats and trinkets and giving you a number is therefore completely pointless

[real panther]

no it's not. the optimal delta is like 1~2% at max

[chrome palm]

No, if you run pacemaker your crit will look a lot lower than someone running say kezan

[real panther]

so if you have 10 10 40 40 as a stat distrib, you are good to go whatever the trinket

[chrome palm]

As an example

If your head is dented and you run dark brew, your crit might be higher than someone running the rotten

[hollow spear]

Disagree. But I won't waste my time arguing. Maybe someone will give you the lazy (and therefore imo wrong) answer you're looking for, but it ain't going to be me.

[chrome palm]

If you have little gear and are running transmitter, mastery is more valuable, ie less crit. It depends and there is no perfect distribution

[void ocean]

42

[hollow spear]

Okay, there was a right answer.

[lethal thorn]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[bright elk]

Is the sub st sim up to date/counting for the 5% buff?

[clever delta]

its not live so propably not

[bright elk]

Cool, even better then

[left ledge]

It def isn’t

The 5% buff was posted earlier by fuu I believe but wasn’t pinned

Should come out to approximately 3.9% in total

[real panther]

@vale pine how many combination do you sim to find the best inventory to put in the doc? I suppose it's impossible to try all right? How do you chose?

[hazy breach]

4.6%

[left ledge]

Oh wow ok that’s nice

[hazy breach]

Because they almost always do *1.05 with their aura buffs, not +0.05

[left ledge]

I remember seeing 3.9

But i could be misremembering

Ah

It’s multiplicative

[hazy breach]

Fuu probably made it 15%

instead of 15.5%, which is the expected value

Again, they could choose 15%, or even 16% instead, but presumably its *1.05

Because it usually is

[left ledge]

Honestly I was under the impression it was just + whatever %

[hazy breach]

Well they usually try to zero out the aura buffs during ptr

[left ledge]

Yeah

[hazy breach]

Its not very common to have a 10% buff and then get buffed again

[vale pine]

its a iterative process of simming talents, the gear, then enchants, etc. so a lot

[haughty mural]

arcane begs to differ

[real panther]

thank you.

[real panther]

are you using the simulationcraft client to do that work?

[clever delta]

4.58%

[vale pine]

raidbots

[haughty rose]

why is it like that? why isn't it a straight 5%?

[hoary lotus]

So we're like 2.85 or somwthing?

After buff

[lucid jackal]

Because procs exist

Melees exist

Trinkets exist

[vale pine]

the damage of the aura buff is on abilitieis

you have enchants, trinkets, embellishments, corruption, etc

so a 5% buff to our abilities is more like a 4% buff overall

[round latch]

Sub Rogue won the AWC finals btw^^

still remains THE BEST ROGUE SPEC for pvp

[swift tinsel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/316923898501529600/1365042674842992660/9l2o5h-ezgif.com-reverse.gif

[vale pine]

wasn't it even a surprise pick?

nobody expected the sub rogue

[swift tinsel]

No one ever expects the sub rogue 👀

[round latch]

Teams started losing faith to sub rogue coz monk/feral are very strong,there were sub rogues in the tourny like brunhity but all lost... Whaazz is on a completely different lvl though.He isnt even human,crazy plays,perfect planning,explosive on the goes..

[vale pine]

sub has one of the highest skill celling

[round latch]

thats why the bigbois say that ''the sub rogue is as good as the one playing it''

[vale pine]

so can see how its not easy to make work

[round latch]

its a spec with extreme ceiling

the highest

[flint parrot]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[void ocean]

Who won awc?

[molten citrus]

Echo

Won the EU tourney

[void ocean]

Whos their rogue

[molten citrus]

NA about to happen now

[molten citrus]

Whaazz

[void ocean]

Ooh

Last time i watched it Whaaz was Method 🤣

[molten citrus]

That was quite a while back

[void ocean]

Yup

[molten citrus]

Method doesn’t have a pvp team these days afaik

[dusk stone]

i like being a spec that matters only in the game mode i don't play

[void ocean]

With SL I stopped pvping and watching pvp on twitch

[molten citrus]

Sub is fine

[dusk stone]

who hurt you

[void ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/ross-friends-fine-im-fine-dont-worry-gif-5476848

[molten citrus]

I stopped for a while after SL too

[void ocean]

8.3 just killed my every desire to ever walk into arena

[molten citrus]

The people that complain about not being balanced at the top of the pack

[dusk stone]

well no

[molten citrus]

Yes

[dusk stone]

you can take the buff we're getting on tuesday, raise it by an order of magnitude, and then we are equal to outlaw in some keys

[molten citrus]

That’s who hurt me

You hurt me

[dusk stone]

an order of magnitude is how they measure earthquakes

[molten citrus]

Ye I don’t see an issue with a spec being bad for a season

[dusk stone]

a season?

we're worse in raid

[molten citrus]

Oh boy here we go

[void ocean]

Technically speaking u can use a word magnitude for every measurable thing

[keen dome]

Hm

My soup is a magnitude fuller than his

[dusk stone]

well, i'm using the word in a literal order of magnitude, meaning 10x

[void ocean]

Understandable

[dusk stone]

dont even have to be tongue in cheek about it, sub is giga meta for dooming this season

[molten citrus]

I just hate dooming

There’s like 99 other ways to better spend your time

[haughty mural]

stop dooming

thx

[keen dome]

Can I interest you in a pet battle in these trying times

[molten citrus]

Let’s race through some delves

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[molten citrus]

Delve speedrun any%

[keen dome]

Oh, oh, you know what could be cool

Vision speedrun

[void ocean]

Lmao

[molten citrus]

nty

[keen dome]

Haha

5 Mask full clear speedrun

[void ocean]

Timewalking parses!

[round latch]

there was a time there were games on blizzcon method na vs method eu

[void ocean]

Cdew was na method, right

Trill

[dusk stone]

fwiw sub players play in caster comps in keys for the most part and it bricks so many parses

[molten citrus]

Ye

Cdew, trill, mes

[molten citrus]

Yeah ik

Method used to be into a lot of shit, even runescape

[void ocean]

Still remember pika losing finals by being convoked behind pillar 🤣

That was SL i think

[molten citrus]

Now all they do is rwf on wow I think

[void ocean]

So i guess i kept watching it during sl for a while

[molten citrus]

Yeah convoke was SL

[void ocean]

Either way didnt like how blizz idea of arena was to finish it during opener

Like who does its 1-5 faster

Came down to muscle memory

No more knowledge, tactics, outsmarting

All the things i loved about pvp

Just do ur oneshot rotation

[molten citrus]

i've only really pvped since SL, with a couple breaks from the game during DF

i was getting a bit burnt out at the end of s1 so i tried pve again this season

but after a couple months, its just way too boring man

[void ocean]

I was die hard pvp since the day 1 of tbc

[hollow spear]

Stop talking about pvp

And get back to dooming

[void ocean]

We r dooming about pvp

[hollow spear]

Hmmm, ok

I find pvp orders of magnitude worse than pve, so I cannot participate

[void ocean]

It used to be better than pve, at least imho

Every arena was different

Pve becomes stale after a while

After like a few reclears u do it with ur eyes closed

[hollow spear]

PvE is like playing in an orchestra, PvP is like playing in a jazz band whilst on crack

At least that's what it feels like to me

(And I'm the guy in the orchestra that always messes up their part)

[void ocean]

I liked the part that u needed to figure out on the fly what u have to do

Fast adapt

And ofc u had to know all the classes that can be tricky

[molten citrus]

it takes a lot of effort at first to learn

[void ocean]

In pve u know ur own class, u dont give a shit what some demo lock next to u has/does

[molten citrus]

compared to pve i think

because you kinda have to learn every class, not just your own

[vale pine]

pve is static

pvp is dynamic

so it takes diffrent skills

[void ocean]

Also way less time gated 🤣

Like u make a deal with ur friend 'hey, next Saturday we play all afternoon "

U play u get some rtg fine

Come back 2 weeks later when u feel like it 🤣

[molten citrus]

yeah that part is really nice

conquest is capped and cap goes up every week until week 11

but gearing can be done in a day or two

[void ocean]

Downside is finding that friend 🤣

[molten citrus]

there's solo queues nowadays

[void ocean]

Yea... That sounds like cancer

[molten citrus]

and you can farm wpvp crates for a few hours and be full geared as well

[void ocean]

I mean half of the success is actually getting used to ur partner

[molten citrus]

shuffle can be annoying as rogue

but its very fun as ungabunga classes

[void ocean]

Ye, like retri i guess

🤣

[molten citrus]

blitz is fine because rogue is insanely strong for bg

[void ocean]

Go im pop wings, bubble and gg

[molten citrus]

warr, dh, shaman, ret, ww, etc

[void ocean]

The usual crew

[molten citrus]

rogue is just very reliant on proper stun usage, so people yolo DRing targets is annoying

[void ocean]

God i miss the times when pala would get forbearance from wings 🤣

[molten citrus]

yeh they've been hard catering to the wittle wet pawadins

even gave them sight

[void ocean]

Yea, sometimes it feels like pvr

Ppl vs rogues

[round latch]

Liquid vs kalvish RMD now

kalvish need to cook

[molten citrus]

thats a hard one

[round latch]

yup

[molten citrus]

because i support both teams

as long as liquid or kalvish's team win the tourney, i'm happy

[round latch]

I want Kalvish,prolly the NA rogue i like the most after nahj

[molten citrus]

yeh

[round latch]

btw whaazz is sh@tting on outlaw on stream rn,calling it sht 😂

im laughing so hard

pure cinema

[dusk stone]

no gaming company i have ever been a customer of has ever made me hate a class they designed more than ret paladin

[tacit pond]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/homelander-gif-4442548120011315856

[lilac stag]

Ret was soooo bad for so long at least in mythic raiding.

the spec is fun with great visuals. We should all be so lucky.

[hollow spear]

I'm having fun on sub rogue

[zealous hedge]

i always have i always come back to it

[hollow spear]

The good thing about sin is that I'm falling asleep playing it

Going to bed has never been easier after raiding

[void ocean]

My WA that warns me when to shiv has an air horn sound, so that usually wakes me up 🤣

[solemn lance]

Yes

[wild barn]

Good evening, what exactly is the one button rotation? Cant find anything

[vernal hull]

its 2 buttons, ALT + F4. jk but its a button blizzard is releasing that supposedly does your rotation for you with one button with a GCD penalty, used for accessibility and casual play

It is not out yet. It is on the PTR

[narrow night]

playing sub with 200 billion years gcd sounds like really awful

[junior prawn]

its made for sin players

[dusk stone]

you get like 6 shadow dance gcds instead of 8

its like minimum of 4 seconds missing probably more like 6 with tfd

[narrow night]

its prob the only rogue spec playable with that

outlaw prob plays like ass too

[hazy breach]

All specs are playable with it

[wild barn]

Thank you, I appreciate it. Doesnt sounds good ^^ Anyway, I need improvements.

I started Sub Rogue cause I got a bet against my friend who is a meta boi. I need to beat him. Atm im still playing with Hekili but often I dont understand.
f.e. using BP on ST and not using BP on AoE.
Even tho I have more then 7 Targets. Couldnt find something in guides
And in a guide I read that using backstab instead of shadow strike is for the dance stacks.
Sometimes it forces me to do nothing even tho I have 2x Shadow Dance and 3 Symbols of Death stacks?

[hazy breach]

Because its not intended to be good

If you care about performance you wont use it

[dusk stone]

i think sin is fairly boring and the skill ceiling seems fairly low compared to sub

[narrow night]

but you wanna have fun with it

this wont be fun prob

[dusk stone]

but thats after playing sub for awhile

[hazy breach]

Idk i'd recommend reading the guides rather than relying on an addon like that

[warm marlin]

im pretty sure it would be miserable with outlaw simply because itll tank your AR uptime which will make the spec FEEL terrible to play

the others are mostly numbers things which are whatever

[dusk stone]

ive never seen it but i would guess hekili would be kinda bad for sub yeah

[hazy breach]

Idk why would it feel terrible, you just press one button

[dusk stone]

no way its picking up on FW on 5 targets and telling you to bp right

[warm marlin]

i suppose if you're turbo chilling you won't notice being out of energy or anything

[lilac stag]

Why wouldn’t it, it reads the apl and the nameplates around you. Downfall of stuff like hekili is that it adjusts to your mistakes and tries its best to correct them.

[dusk stone]

i would wager its just a lot of dynamic stuff going on and would be really difficult for it to get all of it right

i could be wrong, maybe the coder is really good

[lilac stag]

it’s a robot. It’s not difficult.

Does it better than most humans

[dusk stone]

well yeah, but the coder tho

[wild barn]

FW?

[dusk stone]

find weakness

[lilac stag]

What coder? It’s literally the apl that gets processed

they can tweak the inputs as they see fit

[wild barn]

Ahh, then I still dont understand what you mean ^^ Sorry. Can ya explain it to me?

[dusk stone]

if i do not misunderstand

it would read the apl and it would then apply conditionals set by the coder for each circumstance

[lilac stag]

The apl sets the conditionals

[dusk stone]

like i said maybe the guy who made it is really good

[hazy breach]

Yesnt, hekili does some too

[dusk stone]

just guessing if this guy is saying that it's doing weird stuff tbh

[lilac stag]

Eleem and Fuu and Armin are the latest of the apl. Fuu worked with the guy who tweaks hekili directly.

if you don’t know how to use the tool, it’s will generate poor results

Like everything in life

[dusk stone]

fair enough i guess

[lilac stag]

every tool has a limitation. For stuff like hekili it’s more of less the end user not having a fucking clue what they’re doing and they screw it up so poorly it generates unexpected results by people who play they spec and they will then proceed to blame the tools vs the operator.

Using a hammer to screw in drywall isn’t going to work out very well

[dusk stone]

ive never used it personally, thats what reading guides is for hekili somewhat of a shortcut

you can do the sequence so what, doesnt mean you understand things

but aside from that

[wild barn]

Is there a guide for it? I kinda have simc in it

[lilac stag]

Hero Rotation was literally written by one of the owners of this discord

[dusk stone]

have you read the wowhead guide for sub?

[lilac stag]

I’m sure he has guides. If not in his discord than his github. If you don’t have a clue how the spec works no guide for hekili will help you.

Priority helpers are just that. Help, not mindless autopilot mode.

[wild barn]

I mostly use Hekili for the beginning, but I want to understand. After that, I do understand guides more. Thats my way ^^ And then bye Hekili

[dusk stone]

with sub it kinda doesnt work that way

[wild barn]

True. Thanks

[dusk stone]

there's a ton of conditional stuff you have to understand about it

[wild barn]

Thats why Im asking ^^ I do not understand BP on Single Target at all ^^

[hazy breach]

Its to delay coup, but its not worth it

[dusk stone]

i think what hes saying is hekili is telling him to delay coup

delay for coup*

[lilac stag]

stuff that hekili would struggle with. There’s a small chance in the apl that it tries to insert (I think it was a backstab) between Sectech and sblades. (Correct Me if I’m wrong @hazy breach). so that would likely show up in the priority casts and it’s completely wrong.

[dusk stone]

also is this for m+ or raid

[wild barn]

M+

[dusk stone]

so have you read the wow guide and understand the opener?

[wild barn]

opps, yea sorry. Its late

barely. Im reading method one atm. I just noticed not to use Cold Blood + Secret Technique in the first one

[dusk stone]

but you understand until the end of the 2nd or 3rd shadow dance right

priority is to spend premed before shadow blades is used, backstab for DS stack, spending your procs when they come up other than that its build/spend strike/bp/evis

[wild barn]

I need to track premed >.<

[hazy breach]

Not really

[brittle plinth]

Why?

Only thing you really need to track is flag, dance and symbols uptime to start probably.

[dusk stone]

there are other things too

[brittle plinth]

Well I mean the CDs too

Get to 80% worry about last 20% after