subtlety

[lilac stag]

so basically next tier at this point.

[tepid trellis]

yeh its gonna be massive for early prog next tier

[feral coyote]

obviously not the proc one xd

[tepid trellis]

that and gally yes

[void ocean]

i got eye of kezan 2 weeks in a row now in the vault

i swear blizz has some ai shit that analyses ur gear and finds the way how to troll u every reset

[lilac stag]

If they’re just getting into pve I’m assuming not mythic gally

[tepid trellis]

well awful hc groups it will be good on gally as well

[feral coyote]

well, i meant getting into PVE on my Rogue :P

i do Tank mythic xd

[void ocean]

first stix hc pug kill was 8 mins 😄

for me

[lilac stag]

can’t read your mind bruh

“I’m starting to get into pve…”

[feral coyote]

why not smh

na man im just playing i just have no idea about Rogue in PVE thats why i needed the input

thanks alot <3

[lilac stag]

Not much to read?

I joke

[feral coyote]

ouch

youre right. but ouch

[lilac stag]

you can sim the upgrades but HoC worth it. Outside of that play around with what you can’t craft.

Second trinket is for the most part whatever.

Try to get an energy drink from delves

[feral coyote]

[lilac stag]

Jastors heroic as a ring should be a big upgrade. Maybe second buy there.

Craft a MH weapon. Get 4 pc. Get HoC. That’s the big 3 for sub. Everything else is kinda whatever.

[void ocean]

eh... for me it was only like 2k dps and i had a heroic ring

its huge for assa

[feral coyote]

im crafting the HC wepaon atm

and 4pc i hjave from PVP xd

[lilac stag]

Likely big over pvp ring but that’s a sim thing

[feral coyote]

oh

thanks for the reminder.

i havent done Sirene isle on this char

[neon walrus]

I hope we get another buff like arcane did 😦 5% is not enough

I want to feel even more powerful

Someone tell blizz for me

[lilac stag]

5% is fine

[feral coyote]

Gotta be happy with the small things. thats what my GF always tells me aswell

[void ocean]

im not sure i will switch back to raid as sub but deffo will do keys again

[keen igloo]

anyone have a full BIS sim they can link? I can go create one, but like if you got one that'd be great

[lilac stag]

Just don’t do keys. Ez

[void ocean]

need those crests

[feral coyote]

btw are the build on wowhead good ?

[void ocean]

did 8x10 last night all as sub and more often than not wasnt the worst dps 😄

[lilac stag]

Guides have recommended. You should always just sim gear upgrades. BiS lists are troll.

[void ocean]

yes

[short radish]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[short radish]

but yes

bis sims are memes

[lilac stag]

Weapon & HoC are all that has major impact

avoid haste

[keen igloo]

I dont' eat soap

[lilac stag]

Bis list complete.

[raw rover]

another noob question: Thistle Tea has to be used manually right?

[lilac stag]

Don’t spec tea

[raw rover]

even tho it will auto trigger at low energy

ever?

[lilac stag]

Ever

[raw rover]

in any spec or content?

[lilac stag]

EVER

For sub

[raw rover]

then icy veins owes me an apology lmao

[lilac stag]

Doubtful

[raw rover]

or wherever i saw that

i swear i saw a PVP Sub guide with TT in it but maybe i was tripping. ok so no TT for Sub

but for other specs it's used?

[lilac stag]

Tea does nothing for sub. We don’t need energy and the mastery isn’t worth enough to skip cold blood

[void ocean]

oh boi

[lilac stag]

#pvp for pvp and feelycraft.

This is pve channel

[raw rover]

apologies. im just setting everything up PvP and PvE so i just asked here

[lilac stag]

in pve we don’t take it

[raw rover]

will use the PvP channel for further PvP shenanigans

gotcha never in PvE

[lilac stag]

PvP idk what they have

You have to manually use it as a cd

Or it will also auto send when conditions are met

it’s a stupid ability.

[void ocean]

one of the victims of the great rogue confusion

which Im sure is how blizz calls the design sessions

[lilac stag]

pmuch

[raw rover]

not only is rogue kinda confusing for someone who never played rogue before, but it's vastly different than Warlock or Blood DK

The dmg comes from constantly re-stealthing mostly, or entering a mode where you can use stealth abilties, and constant CC (pvp wise)

it's a very challenging change for me but i think i can really excel with this class. it seems like it has a ton of tools. damn near everything you might need

[void ocean]

what tools

u bring nothing but the dmg and it aint good one 😄

some form of cc sure

[lilac stag]

PvP I think u still have a good amount of stops

But you’re still a support spec for the hero class (mage)

[void ocean]

ye for pvp i guess...

didnt pvp since 8.3

[lilac stag]

In pve we don’t really have shit all to write home about.

[raw rover]

LOL

[void ocean]

i mean just in comparison to what dk brings

[hollow spear]

Idk

Don't think dk is a good example

[void ocean]

why

[hollow spear]

Because they don't have a raid buff

[void ocean]

u bring AMS for 2 additional ppl, amz, cr, range interrupt, slappy hands, grips

[hollow spear]

And get left out basically all the time

[raw rover]

is there a benefit to not macroing Cold Blood and ST?

[haughty mural]

aww

[void ocean]

yes

[tribal blade]

i think blizz explicitly said they know dk doesn't have a raid buff, so they design raids with that in mind

so dk has use in raid

[void ocean]

its a dps gain to use cb with 2nd st in burst window

[tribal blade]

death grip being mandatory on some fights

[hollow spear]

This tier that's kinda not true

[raw rover]

ok so keep them seperate keybinds

[tribal blade]

to a certain extent yes, but dks were very useful on stix

[hollow spear]

But usually there's a fight or two for that

[tribal blade]

just less so this tier

stix 100% was WAY easier with a dk or 2

[void ocean]

i guess... i still macroed it but made a macro that allows me to have naked sectech

[tribal blade]

they could have made grip more valuable by making the last 3 boss adds potentially gripable

[raw rover]

got it. i just want to start off by building good muscle memory so i have all these specific keybind questions

i appreciate everyone who takes the time to help me with answers 😄

[short radish]

rogue is the definition for "lot of effort for little reward"

glhf

well except for assi i guess

[tribal blade]

i saw someone write in trade chat today about how he couldn't play rogue because it was too hard

[keen dome]

It's a common sentiment I see around.

[void ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/lord-have-mercy-gif-23339252

[keen dome]

Rogue is too hard / too complex / not worth the effort

[void ocean]

i mean its a scale i guess

[raw rover]

thank you for letting me know. right up my alley xD

[short radish]

it is why we're the least played class

[short radish]

no we don't have scales

[void ocean]

i dont think anyone would call assa hard

[raw rover]

this is specifically what brought me to rogue xD

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[short radish]

yeah assi bleed build is the definition of random shit go

[keen dome]

I also don't really think it's true. But it's a subjective thing that is due to perception rather than reality.

[tribal blade]

i think people sleep on how many steps are involved with play sin in M+

[keen dome]

Yeah.

[tribal blade]

specifically playing around IC and DS

[keen dome]

The content you play will detemrine a lot, too. Sub is really simple once you get used to it's CD cadence but then you get a weird tank and it suddenly becomes impossible lmao

[short radish]

people just sleep when playing sin

[tribal blade]

haha fair enough

[void ocean]

Id rather call assa bleed in m+ cumbersome than hard but I guess Im probably not the best one to speak since never bothered to master it

[tribal blade]

i've had a few people i know try playing sin and give up because they found it too punishing

[raw rover]

as someone who played high end content on Shaman, Monk, Lock, BDK, VDH and HDH, i can tell you rogue looks the most complicated for me

[tribal blade]

bleed is for sure a vibe in keys, it's not hard

but the fundamental design of how sin plays in keys is unlike most other specs

[short radish]

i will note that even after all i've said

no class in wow is truly hard

[keen dome]

truth

It's all going to be relative to the indiviudal, too

[tribal blade]

yeah i hear a lot of people say that too haha, compared to other games

[keen dome]

Now pet battling

[short radish]

at most you are reacting to procs

[keen dome]

that's hard

[short radish]

but there's very little forward thinking involved

[void ocean]

bruh like last season arcane 😄

[short radish]

even with sub

[void ocean]

the amount of decision making

[short radish]

you get 2 dances between first flag

and 1 dance between 2nd flag

[void ocean]

worse than outlaw reroll

[short radish]

and one naked symbols somewhere there as well

aint rocket science

counting to 2 is hard or something

[keen dome]

Have you seen the warrior discord

[void ocean]

god no

[tribal blade]

lol warrior

[keen dome]

Their counting channel is one of the funniest, brilliantist things around

[tribal blade]

i played arms earlier in the tier for splits, you can kinda just press buttons as they come up

and in sort of whatever order

mostly

[void ocean]

fdk discord was an absolute cinema yday with a guy trying to make a steak in air fryer and mistakenly set it to 20 mins instead of 6-8

[keen dome]

lmao

[void ocean]

i was literally crying

[keen dome]

Fury felt similar when i played it a bit

[short radish]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8ccGjar4Es

[tribal blade]

yeah fury is kinda like outlaw

simpler outlaw i should say

[lilac stag]

ability only stuns you. Doesn’t launch you into a fit of death mechanics.

so smarter version of outlaw.

[void ocean]

so war designer has one more braincell

[lilac stag]

1/2

Whirlwind is fucking stupid

[tribal blade]

yeah from what i hear warrior is in a weird spot

they also have a bunch of janky stuff going on

[wind harness]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[vale pine]

great video ^^

[round latch]

im so sad though,imagine the possibilities!!

[short radish]

it was very applicable on echo of nelth

[void ocean]

i noticed that, when ss+vanish triggers tfd, if during the countdown I get out of combat, tfd is gone

and those timer restarts drive me up the fckin wall

[wild hornet]

would there be a possibility you yield different results between each enchant depending on gear or are the results usually consistent in favor of echoing void?

i also saw this in outlaw pins, not sure how relevant that is, idk much about these enchants

[magic glen]

is it in here i can ask about sub pvp things?

[wild hornet]

#pvp

[vale pine]

its in the pins

[ember jetty]

Heyy guys, how are you sub comunity

Im a big player of assa/outlaw but never rly played sub.
What do you think about right now in m+ and raid ?

If you compare it to assa

[short radish]

in m+

its dog shit

in raid

its okay

still below assi probably

but its more fun to play

[ember jetty]

Not complicated to be more fun than assa ST ^^

Why you feel bad in m+ ?

[short radish]

You put in a lot of effort for little reward

[ember jetty]

Lacking aoe , st ? Complex rotation ?

[short radish]

assi is mongo bongo lol bleed lol do damage

sub is juggle everything to maybe do 500k less damage overall

[ember jetty]

Assa is not rly about bleed, and open is kind of complex actually

On certain pull

[short radish]

honestly

you can almost press whatever you want as long as you 5 rupture

and keep CT

and its fine

its really hard to fuck up assi

but yeah

sub is more fun to play though

when you press damage buttons

you see damage go up

doing insane burst on pull is also nice

[ember jetty]

Tier list is what it is, but i see some ppl putting sub A+ in front of assa/outlaw without explanation

[tribal blade]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfY_cPK3nto

my guild's mugzee kill

our 1 tank left alive at the end, text book finish

for your viewing pleasure

[short radish]

because tier lists are stupid

[tribal blade]

there's no shot a single person is putting sub ahead of sin or outlaw in any pve content

[ember jetty]

Yes it is, petko and wowhead

[short radish]

delves

[ember jetty]

Petko is a great player of m+ all time

[tribal blade]

teehee delves

[short radish]

unlimited TFD procs

things die in 2 globals

[tribal blade]

honestly sin feels better in delves gonna be real

[short radish]

okay shut up just change your name to red

[tribal blade]

you just exit stealth, spread with IC and everything dies

[tribal blade]

HAHA nah

[short radish]

fair point though

i forgot mongo bongo blkeed

[tribal blade]

yeah it's actually crazy good in delves

feels like no effort, sub you actually need to press buttons

[brittle plinth]

Check the wowhead tier list

[tribal blade]

i've never looked at a wowhead tier list, got a link?

[brittle plinth]

Average sin player

[tribal blade]

oh ok found it i think

[tribal blade]

well

[ember jetty]

Petkosham also put sub a+ , he say very good dmg

[tribal blade]

i am maybe one of the all time die hard sub 1 tricks

gonna be real

[short radish]

petko is full of shit then lmao

[tribal blade]

just this season i'm fed up

this was S3 DF

when outlaw was really good

[brittle plinth]

I'm just teasing you bud

No malice

[tribal blade]

NO IM MAD

(not really)

[brittle plinth]

Lol

[tribal blade]

haha

i am a traitor though, fimbulvtr is right

[ember jetty]

Prophet you feel sub is lacking of something m+ ?

[brittle plinth]

Sub is fine for most players is the thing. If you aren't doing anything past 12s, you'll barely notice a problem.

Except the effort to result part

Which isn't a big deal for someone like me who is going to suck regardless

[tribal blade]

yeah pretty much the burst doesn't warrant the downtime

the doing tank damage outside of cds

it's weird because i think blizz doesn't want sub to have omega burst because then sub would be kinda broken in raid

but then we fall off so hard outside cds so there's not really a way to keep up in higher target count dungeons

[brittle plinth]

Damage amp fears

[tribal blade]

sub was amazing at the start of the season, but then as we got more gear i started getting out dpsed by guildies who are not very good players

[brittle plinth]

Basically

[tribal blade]

and i didn't want to be in the same position as last season where i fell behind massively and was a burden in every key trying to run sub

and make the same mistake of swapping to sin late

so i just swapped quick

last season i did swap back to sub after the rework it and it wasn't a troll spec to play anymore

(and then quit pushing)

to paraphrase casualaddict on someone asking why he was playing sin over sub early on this season- "why push a boulder up a mountain when you can slide down with no effort"

[short radish]

not wrong

its silly how little effort assi is

and how much damge it does out of cds

well then again

you can sorta say that for every single othre class in the game

[brittle plinth]

What CDs tho even

The difference between using CDs and not is pretty forgettable

(not counting vanish)

Chain pulling is pretty crippling though

[tribal blade]

you can work around it

[short radish]

thats my point

assi deathmark basically doesnt exist in aoe

its cosmetic

[tribal blade]

yeah sin can hold DM for pretty long periods of time

it's the exact opposite of sub

you hold cds as sub for any period of time you start dropping off enormously

oh the wowhead tier lists are old

by 1 month

that's why sub is A-tier

[short radish]

??????????????

sub was A- tier a month ago?

[tulip gorge]

maybe 2 months ago

[short radish]

2 months ago???

acutally yeah 2 months ago it was maybe okay

[tribal blade]

maybe i can't count to 5, let me see

yeah seems weird to me they considered sub A tier at that point

also the way of doing dates year/month/day is chinese, so that's a weird thing too

[keen dome]

I remember us going into S2 with Sub being pretty high up

[keen dome]

huh, that's cool. The reverse of the european way of day/month/year. I didn't realize they did it differently

[tribal blade]

yeah and then americans do month/day/year for some reason

[keen dome]

The most confusing way

[tribal blade]

i'm used to the european way, so every time my guild puts out dates on stuff i get all messed up lol

my guild being NA

[keen dome]

We should just standardize it someday

Like summer / winter clock changes

[tribal blade]

YES

[keen dome]

pick one and stick to it everywhere

[tribal blade]

also remove daylight savings

for the love of god

[keen dome]

I think the EU was talking about it a while back haha

[tribal blade]

we aren't farmers anymore

[keen dome]

Also we should settle on a proper way to tell the temperature

I propose using the one where water boils at 100 and freezes at 0 BECAUSE THAT'S SENSIBLE

[tribal blade]

CELSIUS IS SO EASY

IT'S SO LOGICAL

[short radish]

year/month/day is the most logical one for data storage

makes sortings things so much easier

[tribal blade]

ahh ok makes sense

[short radish]

US one makes no sense

[keen dome]

Yeah

[short radish]

day month year makes sense from a readability standpoint though

[keen dome]

Yeah

[tribal blade]

i bet you there's a really stupid reason why the US does month day year

[short radish]

to be different from the english

[keen dome]

Probably

[hollow spear]

Yeah leave it to murica to make up the weirdest ass shit

[keen dome]

Some of our ideas are pretty good in 'ol blighty. Not all of them are something to throw out

Adding random letters to thee nd of words, however.

Programme. ????

[tribal blade]

oh apparently they borrowed it from europe

[keen dome]

My dyslexic ass growing up did not enjoy the extra silent letters

[tribal blade]

so europe changed it to make sense

US was like "nah"

[keen dome]

Ah, so the British ARE to blame

All is right with the world again.

[tribal blade]

well at least the brits changed it haha

[keen dome]

Tempted to try and find all the documents proposing the change to see how angry people got at it

[short radish]

another thing the british fucked up

i hate the british

[tribal blade]

i grew up with a lot of brits

a LOT of banter

[keen dome]

Apperently 1752 is when we swapped

[void ocean]

arent the brits the one that say they use metrics but in reality they use imperials

[keen dome]

Buddy I don't know what we use half the time

[tribal blade]

cor blimey mary poppins

[short radish]

tea and crumpets?

[void ocean]

bo'wa'o'wo'ah

[keen dome]

In accordance with a 1750 act of Parliament, England and its colonies changed calendars in 1752. By that time, the discrepancy between a solar year and the Julian Calendar had grown by an additional day, so that the calendar used in England and its colonies was 11 days out-of-sync with the Gregorian Calendar in use in most other parts of Europe. lol, this rules

[tulip gorge]

loicense?

[tribal blade]

bottle of water?

[short radish]

why did i understand that

[tribal blade]

innit

[void ocean]

yip

[keen dome]

Gotta change the calender 'cos we've got 11 bonus days by accident

[tribal blade]

i was in the british system, did GCSEs and A levels

it was horrible

[keen dome]

Hah

Fucking GCSE's and A-Levels.

[void ocean]

it was On CHEWSDAY, innit

[tribal blade]

but apparently high schoolers in the UK are so dumb i didn't study at all for my GCSEs and got decent grades

[keen dome]

My greatest accomplishment is having zero GCSE's and no A-Levels, but having two BSc's and an LLM

[tribal blade]

DAAAAMN

[void ocean]

several AOTC's included

[keen dome]

And 2200+ days worth of WoW

Actually that's my greatest accomplishment, fuck the education

[void ocean]

i mean, education is important but wow is importanter

[keen dome]

A big isue with the GCSE / A-Level system is you teach to pass an exam rather than like, actually teaching useful skills. So the entire structure is now teach to pass, not teach to learn skills

It's super frustrating

[tribal blade]

that is education in a nutshell

[keen dome]

Yep

[tribal blade]

and they are confused why kids aren't able to focus

like i had a really hard time in school, and at the time was constantly getting in trouble all the time

[keen dome]

Thankfully I skipped it all. Taken out of school at 9. Adult city and guilds education at 16, University at 18. WoW from 19 and nothing useful since.

[tribal blade]

but now i see it wasn't my fault, it was the system

[keen dome]

Ye

[tribal blade]

oh damn nice

[keen dome]

We all learn differently and the idea you can have this one size fits all approach is just deeply frustrating

[void ocean]

i mean, its up to you actually... on my uni u could actually get very high grade by just memorising shit and then reporducing it on exam exactly like it is...

[tribal blade]

i mean who in the hell needs to learn sedimentation theory of fucking sand and dirt in geography class at 16 years old

[void ocean]

and it was an engineering uni so that kinda of shit should be impossible but i guess some professors r just lazy

[keen dome]

I did Psychology & Criminology as my first so it was all essay and practical stuff rather than exams. So actual practical stuff for the fields

Which is super good as a way to grade those fields

'Cos you've gotta demonstrate you can understand the theory and apply it properly

Engineering seems cool as hell though

[void ocean]

eh yea, thats what i tho as well 😄

u do get disappointed ofc

tho I guess its nice on high end universities like MIT n stuff

[keen dome]

Yeah

[void ocean]

when u do it in 3rd world country where uni struggles to get half the equipment they need, it kinda becomes rather underwhelming

[keen dome]

Frustratign 😦

[tribal blade]

it's hard to know how good you have it until you've visited a third world country

[keen dome]

Agreed.

Or slough, I guess

[tribal blade]

just small things like walking through ancient temple sites

and having dozens of kids run up to you trying to sell you stuff or begging for money

[void ocean]

Now

Lets go Monaco

I must be the most loyal guy in the world, sub main and supporting Ferrari

[fallow nimbus]

Seems like you are THE underdog

[void ocean]

Naah, Im the updog

[tepid trellis]

condolences

[alpine wraith]

isnt ferrari cool

it has a horse

[full escarp]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[haughty mural]

Are horses that cool ?

[alpine wraith]

yea they are fast and taste decent

[latent finch]

And they are less scary then cows

[haughty mural]

Taste decent???

Is it a thing in spain?

[alpine wraith]

no just in general

horse meat is not that rare

[alpine wraith]

yea people forget how strong cows can be

and they are tame but not skilled

so they oops trample you

[latent finch]

And underestimate how fast they can be for their size. I grew up in a place with more cows then people and i got chased some times by some angry cows. Its a sight seeing a animal weighing a few hundred kilo to run at you at full speed

[lilac stag]

@tribal blade back to sub for reclears?

[alpine wraith]

we never went out

[twilit phoenix]

buen día amigo

[nocturne oriole]

Started as Sub, been playing assa in raid and I’m ready to swap back. Assa is 🥱 and not fun. Wondering if the 5% buff will be enough to not troll my raid group. I doubt it, but it’s something

[alpine wraith]

sub will be fine on all bosses now that mug zee kinda falls over

[void ocean]

when we get that belt, its gonna be tfd season in mythic

when bosses start dying in like 3 mins 😄

[alpine wraith]

the belt is interesting with the ramping mastery

[void ocean]

is it just me or it feels like we r gettin a bit too much

[alpine wraith]

it is drip feed content

to keep engagement

[void ocean]

first half of the season bosses get nerfed, 2nd part we get fckton of dps boost

[alpine wraith]

most midcore guilds are still in sprocket/oab

[void ocean]

yea, that would be my guild

but not bc of mechanical issues, but roster

we done like one mythic night in past 5 weeks or so when stix died

[alpine wraith]

well yea that is the void of like wr 700-1k+

where everyone does not have time or other things

and recruiting is a nightmare too

[void ocean]

we should have the entire june I guess

[alpine wraith]

new raid is likely in august

to boost q3 so dont worry

plenty of time

[void ocean]

i hate raiding over summer 😄

gaming at all

[alpine wraith]

i dont mind it i have more time

[void ocean]

im a shitty-weather-gamer

snow storms, heavy rain outside mmmm

but when the raid starts and its still daylight outside, feels weird

[twilit phoenix]

100000% agreed

Summer I gotta be outside

Wow is a good wintertime activity

[tiny sierra]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[thin sinew]

Well 4 masks actually seemed pretty manageable

probably completely insane going for the 5th though

[vale pine]

think 5 is only possible with rly good gear and a bit of luck on your side

unlocking more of the tree will make it more reasonable

[brittle plinth]

Is unlocking 5th mask pretty doable?

It looked like a bit of effort I wasnt up to during work

[fallow nimbus]

Unlocking the masks is trivial

[vale pine]

my gf and me did unlock i think all masks you can this week, you don't need to do more than 1 mask runs for it so its easy doable

[brittle plinth]

Multitudes, kill everything in the vision and the objectives is the one I was worried about.

Guess I'll try it tonight.

[thin sinew]

Ok that's actually possible i just messed up and got stunned

Got to shaw with 2 orbs left somehow

[left ledge]

Multitudes is just annoying

Have to kill everything for it

Which defeats the whole stealth speedrun rogue has

[thin sinew]

yeh no

those last few zones absolutely suck takes too long to kill stuff.

loved getting a below 50% sanity horror pulling 10 mobs from nowwhere that was fun ;p

long night is just too much with the drain rate we have. maybe doing some insane evasion secret tech nukes it might work

[hidden spade]

Will we need all the masks unlocked to get the best version of the enchant whenever it comes out?

[void ocean]

Doubt it

[edgy socket]

where to see incoming patch notes?

[vale pine]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/upcoming-class-tuning-with-the-weekly-reset-many-pve-and-pvp-changes-377006?utm_source=discord-webhook

if you mean these

[old venture]

lmao 5% aura buff

SPEC SAVED

[vale pine]

ye, its a 4% buff

i did a rough estimate picture when it was released

so sub is at best middle of the pack

still behind outlaw and sin

which means, the entire idea of the buff was not to make anyone play sub

but to make the remaining players on the spec happy

[old venture]

whatever happened to the 10% auras when a spec has been dogshit all tier

they just forgot about those?

or are those just reserved for mage and warlocks

[vale pine]

i mean it happens when sin is bad

but subtlety either get no buff

or a very minor mon to not change the balance between specs

[echo ridge]

is that based on general overall dps? or specifically raid or m+?

[vale pine]

based on history

[echo ridge]

gotcha

[vale pine]

e.g. SL season 1

sin was last, similar like sub is now

and they buffed it till everyone exclusively played it

[old venture]

tbf assassination in season 1 of shadowlands was actually unplayable

[edgy socket]

i'm a new player, is that 5% buff substantial? ie moves as a tier?

[old venture]

like sub s2-4 of BFA levels of unplayable

[echo ridge]

outlaw has been playable for the longest time since it was first introduced in legion (correct me if im wrong)

[vale pine]

it was quite a bit behind, but this was known even before the tier began.

the thing is

they did not buff it to still be behind the other specs

[graceful osprey]

Maybe the person implementing the buff will add an extra zero to make it 50% increase all damage for sub

[vale pine]

but over and over again

[void ocean]

Outlaw is often shit in raids

[vale pine]

till it was the best spec

[old venture]

shadowlands was such a bad spot for rogue overall

[vale pine]

for the etire tier

[old venture]

they never even fixed sub

[vale pine]

and this did happen multiple times now

[old venture]

sub got by with bandaids (EoN and shards)

[vale pine]

when sub was bad

[old venture]

it just rotted the entire expac

[vale pine]

it did rot on its position typically

[old venture]

[echo ridge]

I get that but it's still playable compared to other two specs if we're looking at the past

[old venture]

Step 1. Remove Shuriken Combo because of Zul
Step 2. ?????
Step 3. ?????
Step 4. People still play this spec?

blizzard's approach to sub in BFA

[vale pine]

legion had the same happen

s4 sin was behind

then it was buffed to be the best raid spec

besides tc's asking for similar buffs to all specs to keep them competitive

[old venture]

yeah but that would require them to care about rogue overall

[alpine wraith]

legion was a crime against combat and outlaw

they nerfed them

EVERY TIME

it was about to be good

[old venture]

they just slap aura buffs on a class until 1 spec is really good and go "WELL JOB DONE THANKS EVERYONE"

[alpine wraith]

we meme about bfa but legion was also ruthless

[vale pine]

inherently, i am not even sure its intentional

but with sin being the go-to for so long

it might got more people outraged if its bad

[old venture]

because it's the easiest I think for them to just tweak

[vale pine]

so devs care more

[old venture]

right

think about it, outlaw you if you tweak it too high is just obscenely OP in keys

[vale pine]

its never about balance but about perception

[old venture]

and I think they're scared to do that because of BFA

[vale pine]

ion mention it in his talk

[old venture]

when you ran 2-3 outlaw rogues in keys lol

[vale pine]

they don't balance the game for balancing reasons but to make the most amount of people happy

[old venture]

and I think sub suffers because blizz has no idea what to do with the spec

so we get half assed bandaids

[vale pine]

so whatever they think achives that

[old venture]

to carry sub over the finish line

[keen dome]

I could design it to be cool.

[old venture]

it was designed to be cool

[echo ridge]

sorry - perception of...? what exactly

[old venture]

it had literally the coolest niche in the game

aoe -> ST

with combo

then they ruined it because of one fucking boss

[vale pine]

player perception

[echo ridge]

understood

[keen dome]

80% adding Ky'veza's animations. 20% finding the combo code from BfA and pasting it back in

[vale pine]

basically, the statement was somewhat around this

people are never happy

and balance will never be good

so they just wing it

based on how balance is precived

and how they want to change/impact it

(unless i missunderstood the talk)

[old venture]

it took them 20 years to finally admit this?

[vale pine]

i mean he did not say this

directly at least

[old venture]

yeah he's a licensed attorney

he's good with words

he'll never bluntly say it

[vale pine]

i regret watching the talk

not to be disrespectful to ion

[old venture]

I don't even bother anymore tbh

[vale pine]

but it was like 1 or 1.5h i think

and the content was worth 2 scentences

so much words to say nothing

[old venture]

the last 3 expacs solidified what I believed to be true over the last 2 decades

I don't need to hear his fluff

[vale pine]

i think wow repeats itself

classic came with detailed talent trees

they had one point for each level, so you always got something out of leveling up

but these trees grow with every xpac

[old venture]

then we got the tables

lmao

[vale pine]

so they became impossible to balance and maintain

[left ledge]

Is this some recent interview

[vale pine]

and blizz changed away to a system more defined

[old venture]

yeah

Ion gave a talk this past week iirc

or last week

idr

[vale pine]

with strong interessting perks, so you had capstones to decide between

[lucid atlas]

stilleto or stabber for first dagger craft?

[vale pine]

but seems like this was not a good approach, because DF changed back to the former

[left ledge]

Just the regular agi dagger

Not the one with special effect

[lucid atlas]

Ok thanks

[vale pine]

but they never fixed the problem that made them move away from the talent system in classic

so what now?

[old venture]

they keep adding to the hero trees, never really improving anything

[vale pine]

do we just add more talents, people are already completely lost with what we have

[old venture]

and we get the same shit until people riot and we go back to tables

lol

[vale pine]

or do we again simplify and give capstones?

or maybe something in between?

[left ledge]

I think they just don’t understand how to scale the system but they also don’t really have community talks

It’s impossible to give actual feedback in this game

[old venture]

they tried that

[left ledge]

They tried the class forums

Inevitable it got abandoned

[old venture]

they tried it with devs coming into class discords in DF

[echo ridge]

we used to have class dev in each class discords but it has been unsuccessful in its course

[left ledge]

Yeah like he who shall not be named in SL as well

[old venture]

then people started attacking blizzard reps who went out of their way to talk to the community, and then these guys just stopped because why would you subject yourself to random attacks

[keen dome]

Esp for the pay they got. I'm sure another part is a lot of talent just doesn't stick around so it's constantly re-learning the old issues and repeating shit.

[old venture]

yeah...

[vale pine]

think devs going directly into a 10k+ member server is already a bit of a putting a target on yourself

[old venture]

plus from my understanding from what I've seen in the various class discords. I think they're also hamstrung by what they want to do vs what the overall team wants them to be able to do

[echo ridge]

im surprised that class devs decided to communicate with wider audience instead of spec rep like fuu, whispyr, foreverguy etc

[left ledge]

I mean what are they gonna do next expac

More hero talents?

[old venture]

add more hero talents

lmao

[keen dome]

Nah, man. I've already predicted it.

[old venture]

it's here to stay apparently

[left ledge]

That would be tragic

[keen dome]

They're gonna add a few Void choice nodes.

So you'll have like Void-tainted nodes and stuff which add an effect. You can just layer stuff on top fo them. Which is probably fine but eh.

[echo ridge]

i fear the talent system may just turn into PoE version of it

[left ledge]

Like many people said here I’m also of the opinion that hero talents are a band aid fix

[old venture]

they've done that in the past, and then blizzard faced a ton of backlash from the every day player that they're catering to the top 1%

[keen dome]

We're half-way through and a lot of hero trees still need full on reworks so this is how it is. Tons of reason why they aren't done and they're all depressing.

[left ledge]

Instead of fleshing out talents

[old venture]

realistically, there's no winning for them

[vale pine]

haha, little did they know ^^

[old venture]

so they just cater to the casuals who pay the bills now, and that's probably the best business decision

[vale pine]

i am def. not top X%

not playing hof or high wr

[old venture]

yeah but you're a theorycrafter, automatically places you in the top 1% sir

[keen dome]

Arguably they're failing there to some extent 'cos you can point to a myriad of issues. It's a real damned if you do, damnd if you don't 'cos of deadlines, metrics, whatever else.

If only they could just be left alone to make a video game they wanna make

[left ledge]

There’s just too much divide in the communities themselves sadly

[old venture]

yep, that's the issue with the gaming industry now

[echo ridge]

yea, i just recalled that a moment ago, man - those times were disturbing. I get why blizzard made that choice afterwards

[old venture]

everything's driven by metrics

[left ledge]

Like there were some people actually advocating for goremaw…

[old venture]

and $$$$$

[keen dome]

Ye

[old venture]

look at baldur's gate 3, took like a million years to came out

and was clearly the best game made in the last decade+

lol

[keen dome]

Nah, man.

Expedtion 33 is

Hands down. Game of the decade.

(BG3 is right up there though)

[left ledge]

It’s a good game it just doesn’t scratch the depth of bg3

[echo ridge]

I think BG3 was amazing in its own catagory

[dawn summit]

the factorio expansion lowkey kinda windmill dunked on every game release i can think of in the past 5-10 years

[old venture]

factorio goated

ngl

[keen dome]

But 33 is a super cool example of how around 60~ people can make a really fucking good video game. A mixture of really experienced veterans and completely new people

[old venture]

there's too much rigidness in the gaming industry atm

[keen dome]

The soundtrack being done by a guy who's never done one before and did music as his hobby. The writer being a VA who came on as a VA and ended up writing it.

[left ledge]

I think WoW is just being milked at this point fwiw

[old venture]

oh it 100% is

[keen dome]

All live service games are because that's their purpose.

[old venture]

I'd argue it's been milked since wod

[keen dome]

Since Wrath

Because that was it's peak.

[left ledge]

Def not since wrath

MoP was passion

[old venture]

when they ran out of story to follow and had to invent a new one?

[echo ridge]

I kinda disagree

I think Legion was peak

[old venture]

Legion was a break glass if disaster incoming expac

[left ledge]

You can’t look at MoP and say “being milked”

[keen dome]

Wrath was the peak of subscriptions, though.

[old venture]

unironically, shadowlands was 😛

[left ledge]

Yeah

[keen dome]

Sure I can. You can apply the same arguments people make today 'cos of the dailies, etc. So much of this is subjective and not really built on anything substanial.

[brittle plinth]

Legion was the "last" story

They totally broke glass

[left ledge]

No you very much can’t because the amount of content in the game was absurd

[old venture]

they legit released every emergency "oh shit" card they had for legion

[keen dome]

but if you want to talk like, just business? Wrath was their peak of the game being this GIGANTIC hit and that's when it would've been seen as a perpetual cashcow.

[left ledge]

I’m pretty sure MoP had the most content

Out of any expansion

[keen dome]

It didn't

[lucid jackal]

Housing will save world of Warcraft

Don't be a hater

[old venture]

[echo ridge]

I hated SL so much - 15min mythic sylvanas fight and it was my first ever CE... (+720 pulls in my guild)

[old venture]

LMFAO

I love you guy

[left ledge]

It also had arguably the best raid tier

[brittle plinth]

Timeless Isle was the best content in wow so he's not wrong

[lucid jackal]

I'm being so Fr tho

[old venture]

it'll keep the money rolling for sure

[lucid jackal]

Housing is actually as big of a feature as m+

It's gonna redefine the game

[keen dome]

Housing is extremely cool, though. I'm not sure why people are shitting on it so much. They're finally going back to their roots of taking something that works well in another MMO and taking it themselves and making it real fucking good.

[old venture]

they missed the ball on not implementing it sooner tbh

[left ledge]

Housing is a good feature

[brittle plinth]

Housing will be unused within 3 months, pin it

[lucid jackal]

U could say that about any feature wow gets

[old venture]

like you're not wrong, it'll be a huge hit

[dusk stone]

wow is very very very behind on this housing thing

[keen dome]

So much of WoW is Blizz taking stuff from other games and doing something really good with it

[left ledge]

It def won’t

Play ff

Housing is massive

[lucid jackal]

They try and fix the ui, "it's so late to being doing that"

[left ledge]

Better late than never

[lucid jackal]

They fix balance "why does it take so long"

[dusk stone]

other games have had housing for a long time already or longer tbh

[left ledge]

That’s Blizz

[old venture]

esp if you can customize it well

[lucid jackal]

Sub gets a buff "oh well why didn't it happen sooner"

[old venture]

housing is gonna revitalize wow

you get to hang cool trophies you earn, etc

[keen dome]

And so far it looks like Blizz are gonna do it better than anybody else.

[echo ridge]

blizz's doing good things while also doing bad things to themselves....

[left ledge]

Corruptions get released one month after their patch

Oh wait

They’re still locked

[dusk stone]

how so

[left ledge]

[vale pine]

had to quickly go afk

[left ledge]

I love recycled time gated content

[keen dome]

Have you looked at the previews and shit? It's the best part of FF14's approach with like, Wildstar's influence, Lotro, etc.

[lucid jackal]

Go read any of the blogs or watch any of the vids abt it

It's actually better than anybody imagined

[dusk stone]

i kind of did

[left ledge]

Yes housing looks great

[keen dome]

Like, it's a legitimate exmaple of Blizz taking what other studios have done AND doing it better due to learning from their lessons.

[left ledge]

If you disagree then you’re just a sour Andy idk

[keen dome]

Something they used to be known for and were very good at.

[dusk stone]

all i saw was decos and normal house stuff with vague ideas about neighborhoods

[old venture]

real talk though, as much as we meme blizzard. They do a really really good fucking job of taking something and improving on it

[vale pine]

happy sub noices

[left ledge]

They literally can make jump mazes in your house

And obstacle courses

[vale pine]

like visions ?

[keen dome]

Yeah! I wish they'd keep doing it 'cos they're good at it.

[left ledge]

Idk what more you want

[dusk stone]

yeah thats not new

[vale pine]

sry i had to make the joke

[left ledge]

It

[dusk stone]

other games have done that for like 20 years

[old venture]

see the problem is, they made visions

[left ledge]

It literally is new to wow

And no

Other games haven’t

FF is the other big mmo with housing

[old venture]

the ideas they steal from other games? when they implement them they do a good job of it

[left ledge]

It doesn’t have that

[lucid jackal]

Shitting on blizzard is the cool thing to do so

[dusk stone]

yes they have runescape did this in 03 or something

[lucid jackal]

Is what it is

[keen dome]

Warbands are another cool example, actually

[old venture]

they took grifts from diablo 3 and made them way better/rewarding than grifts ever could be

[left ledge]

RuneScape is a low tick rate based game with much less control over what you can place or do

[old venture]

m+ is insanely successful

[left ledge]

Idk what that comparison even is

[keen dome]

Taking account wide progression and shit. And doing it in a real good way. Warbands, the Warbank, etc. They're all huge improvements to the game that a lot of other MMO's struggle with.

[dusk stone]

thats they had similiar house features 20 years ago

[left ledge]

No they just had housing features

[keen dome]

WoW's transmog system is one fo the best around, too. It's wholesale copied from other MMO's and I think only GW2 has it done slightly better.

[left ledge]

And the initial implementation was very minimal

[old venture]

I'm trying to imagine the outrage if blizzard pulled what ggg did with poe1/poe2

and lmao

[left ledge]

And it’s also completely instanced

[old venture]

Ion would have to enter the identity protection program

[keen dome]

What, make WoW 2?

[dusk stone]

i dont think aesthetically it's going to be at swtors level though to be honest, because they did it really, really well with strongholds

[lucid jackal]

The fact that ggg is now getting glazed for Poe 2 is making me sick to my stomach

Absolute bastard company

[keen dome]

SWTOR's housing is super limited though. You can only attach stuff to nodes. WoW's is full freeform

[vale pine]

isn't poe2 rly hard?

[old venture]

the problem wasn't its difficulty

the problem was it was just bad

[dusk stone]

for the maze thing yeah, graphically and the ten million decos, how it looks, the functionality it has, no

[vale pine]

okay fair

[left ledge]

The WoW housing is great I will be making mine sub rogue themed and have death traps if they allow me to kill people

[dusk stone]

game has dummies for you to parse in at your house

[left ledge]

I’m sure WoW will put dummies in too

Considering ff has them

[swift tinsel]

And they had them with garrisons

[keen dome]

Ye

[left ledge]

That too

[old venture]

bro garrisons could've been so sick

[dusk stone]

we will see what they do, but i dont think it will be S tier immediately

[swift tinsel]

Oh yeah they hyped them up so much

[keen dome]

Garrisons were rad

The original idea for Garrison was SO COOL

[swift tinsel]

And then put like seven minutes of effort into them

[keen dome]

And a technical nightmare

[old venture]

[keen dome]

Hey, have your base in ANY of these zones!!!

[old venture]

the original idea for x was SO COOL seems to be a common theme

[keen dome]

haha, yeah

[swift tinsel]

Torghast

[old venture]

the original idea for warfronts was insanely cool

torghast

just shells of what was planned

unlucky

[keen dome]

I mean, from a technial standpoint I absolutely understand why they cut them down. Absolute nightmare.

Did you know that there are two long running bugs in the Alliance garrison that still aren't fixed? One is outright game breaking.

[swift tinsel]

Lmfao

[old venture]

brother

all of wod can be considered a long running bug at this point

[dusk stone]

nice to see sub channel being pretty alive

[swift tinsel]

Best thing to come from Garrisons is the Lumberjack title

[left ledge]

Duuude when WoD came out

I was convincing my friends to hop on wow

[swift tinsel]

The horde bug

[left ledge]

15 of us went and watched the movie

[vale pine]

many of the systems had good ideas

[left ledge]

And then I quit the fucking game myself

[swift tinsel]

That bricked garrison building

[old venture]

twitter integration was a major patch in wod wasn't it?

[keen dome]

If you run down from your Garrison to the harbour when it is in stage 1 and hang on the right side of the path, the game will disconnect you. BUT! When you reconnect it will spawn you in the air above that spot, and disconnect you. You have to put in a ticket to get yourself moved lmao

[old venture]

lmfao

[swift tinsel]

Bc only one person could interact with the goblin spyglass at a time

[vale pine]

but never good implementations

[swift tinsel]

So bliz had to take down servers and auto-complete the quest for everyone

[keen dome]

lmao

[swift tinsel]

Legendary moment

[old venture]

I wonder how much of it was because of how spaghetti the engine is at this point

I remember realz trying to separate iron wire and imp garrote from subterfuge

and complaining about how much of a mess it was

[left ledge]

Didn’t WoD cause the implementation of sharding

[vale pine]

i think its a lack of iteration

[left ledge]

Or was that something else

[keen dome]

I remember WoD appearing on the BBC trading standards watchdog program 'cos of people complaining about it

[vale pine]

like if you game dev

its rare to get the first implementation right

[old venture]

I think so, because the playerbase plummetted so they had to make the world feel alive lol

[vale pine]

e.g. think of hades

they iterated for years to make a good roguelike

[keen dome]

I think that was in Legion

[vale pine]

blizz thought they would nail it in one iteration

with torghast

and create a similar good gamepla loop

[keen dome]

Yeah - Island expedtions, torghast, warfronts. Ideas they toss as soon as they don't work instead of building on them and refining them

[vale pine]

and you realize how hard it is

if you look at hades 2

and it does not capture players as much as the first one

even tho its a good game

[keen dome]

I think a big part of that was it being in the Epic gulag for ages.

Like, that has a huge impact on people actually playing your game

[vale pine]

not rly

people go to games if they are good

its just a lot of pc gamers are married to steam

so they will be very loud if something is not on steam

[swift tinsel]

I think at one point I had steam, epic, origin, and another one idr

[keen dome]

Ubisoft's one probably

[swift tinsel]

For games I was actively playing

Oh yeah

Division I think I was playing

[dusk stone]

roguelikes were a fad though as a lot of stuff is

[keen dome]

EA have basically given up on Origin and it's now EA Play and most run on steam anyway. UBisoft seem to be clinging to it haha

[dusk stone]

like sub stuff with niches dies pretty quick

[vale pine]

roguelike is a very competitive genre

[keen dome]

Also a very broad one

[vale pine]

so you can't easy just replicate a good formula

[keen dome]

Like, the difference between sometihng like Rogue, ADOM, and I dunno, Monster Train. Huge.

I wonder what game introduced people to the genre more? Slay the Spire or Hades

[vale pine]

is tft considered a roguelike?

[dusk stone]

do the roguelikes have a sub specialization in them, is fuu telling us to go play those games sublimininally

[vale pine]

we talked about ttorghast

[keen dome]

Nah, Autobattler ain't it?

[vale pine]

which is a rogulike design

autochess like i would say, but there are many names for the genre

autobattler

[keen dome]

Yeah

[vale pine]

deck builder

etc.

[keen dome]

I mean, Hearthstone had it's own roguelike mode so sure, it probably can be

[vale pine]

they still have ye

[keen dome]

But if you take something like ADOM and put it next to say, HS's roguelike mode. The world of difference haha

[vale pine]

wow tried something like autobattlers

with missions

but it did not succeed

[keen dome]

Ye

Legion best version of those

[vale pine]

they did a lot of stealing from other games that was not that good and dropped after a certain point

erliest i remember was thousendwinter in WOTLK

[brittle plinth]

Did someone have a list of fastest delves for rogues?

[vale pine]

sidestreed and fungal folly probably

you can use spores again to kill mobs in fungal

so its rly fast/easy

[dusk stone]

day 2 of saying sub community needs to come together and have a list of organized and succinct list of proposed designed changes

[keen dome]

Posion toggle

[brittle plinth]

I have fungal down to about 10mins. I'll try a rush run on street

[vale pine]

some of the underwater ones can also be fast

as you can depending on the play skip most of them

[brittle plinth]

Buddy of mine does dreadpit in about 2 mins

On shaman

[vale pine]

my s1 fungal folly record was a few minutes

[brittle plinth]

But that fun was ruined right?

As in you can't do it anymore

[vale pine]

they changed it back again

[brittle plinth]

Did you ever record how you do it?

[vale pine]

even tho spores are now more local, they now do damage again to mobs

and there are more of them

so you can speed up your delve by kiting enemies into spores

[brittle plinth]

I'll check it out.

Thanks

[vale pine]

idk if you can still do it in 4 min or sub 4 mins

[vestal veldt]

what are our bis trinkets if our main focus is m+ and what should we spend dinars on

[vale pine]

i haven't attempted to speedrun it this season

[vale pine]

you want to have house of cards combined with whatever you find and sims good

2nd slot is quite irrelevant

[vestal veldt]

ooo

one last question

even if its heroic we want it ?

[vale pine]

yes

house of cards is bis

so if you don't have it, its a good thing for your dinar or to farm in heroic raids

[dusk stone]

seaforium hoc

jastors and ritual bone brand beat our circes reportedly but i do not think it is by much

also understand sub is 30-50% behind other rogue specs in most cases

[left ledge]

Binding of Isaac

Probably the game that initiated the explosive popularity in roguelikes

[vale pine]

thats a flash game, right?

[keen dome]

Yeah, it def had an impact.

[vale pine]

(i am joking because it started as a flash game)

[left ledge]

Originally yes

[vestal veldt]

i only play sub i dont want to play sin or combat

[keen dome]

Hell yeah more Sub rogues

[twilit phoenix]

fancy pants was a dope flash game

[dusk stone]

welcome to the club brother

[twilit phoenix]

https://tenor.com/view/fancy-pants-gif-19313690

[dusk stone]

but yeah

[vale pine]

can't go wrong with a jump and run ^^

[dusk stone]

i think those qualified need to do either need to have two lists for sub changes, one for proposed changes in short term that makes sub competitive with other rogue specs and the other is more long term with more in depth changes

make an article out of it or something, it's at least something to set you apart from other class discord channels

[vale pine]

there was an article on wowhead about it ^^

[dusk stone]

i read the talent portion of it, didnt go in depth enough imo

[vale pine]

i mean you can extend the content infinitely

[dusk stone]

like you guys are into theorycrafting, you have access to all the stuff to know what we would need to be competitive

[vale pine]

competitiveness is numbers

[dusk stone]

the idea behind this is that if numbers can prove these things you just save dev time

[vale pine]

only

if you do a lot of damage -> you will be chooses over those who will do less

[uneven scarab]

Its typically a mix between damage and util that makes a spec meta

[vale pine]

only if the group needs it

[uneven scarab]

Right ofc

Different comps change that

[dusk stone]

example of short term can for example be buffing sectec to make us more competitive in m+ but buffing one skill too much means it has to be nerfed later

[vale pine]

the reason it got nerfed was basically the tier set

[dusk stone]

we should just have a changelist on hand man

[vale pine]

or well

[uneven scarab]

Subs damage is just very lackluster compared to other specs rn

[uneven scarab]

Imagine if they never nerfed it!

[vale pine]

blizz wanting sub to do less damage in general

[uneven scarab]

Sub would probably be upper mid tier

[vale pine]

shadowlands was rly good season 2

all 3 specs ended up roughly equal

[dusk stone]

things i dont think should be on the short term list are like moving talents or adding new ones or etc because its more in depth

[vale pine]

so you could freely pick

[dusk stone]

short term just needs to be numbers based

[vale pine]

well the problem you miss is

the feedback blizz searches is never solutions

but problems

so they can make their own solutions

e.g. we suggested things

but rarely did they ended up getting implemented

[dusk stone]

what was an example or something that was suggested

[vale pine]

developers often want the control over their systems, and bring their own solutions

its with most games like this

and as oxi mentioned earlier in DF

even when developers ended up active in the chat

it was rare to see solutions taken from the community

outside of qality of life changes

there is another problem of time

you have one dev work on 5 or 8 specs

[dusk stone]

yeah devs having control and not utilizing community changes if often a thing it can come with perception biases and stuff

[vale pine]

so you don't have the time to make every spec in the game equally developed

one will always fall behind