subtlety

[alpine wraith]

that was unlucky

[clever delta]

We did not see single hoc jastor or kezan first 4 weeks to drop

[native zodiac]

i used transmitter on mythic gally

[alpine wraith]

we still havent seen jastor or kezan

[clever delta]

Bro

I give up on transmitter after first night of bandit, I said I can't and switched to assa

[alpine wraith]

i used badge for a while it was more dps than playing trnasmitter not perfectly

[tribal blade]

my guild got at least 1 hoc on every bandit kill on every difficulty on the first 4 weeks

[clever delta]

I was mentally drained by that trinket

[native zodiac]

ye i crashed out a few times over transmitter aswell

sprocket was also an experience with it

[clever delta]

I played pvp trinket on sprock

[native zodiac]

they just need to make competetive trinkets

from m+

and more raid trinkets that are usefull

that big red button trinket for strength users on 2 mind cd when all strength users are 1:30

is fucking criminal

whoever desiged that gave 0 thoughts

and we end up with 16/20 ppl wanting house of cards

[clever delta]

Yeah

[native zodiac]

a 1:30 trinket also shouldnt beat a 2min trinket on the same itemlvl (for a 2min classs)

like priory vs hosue of cards

atleast imo

[night sparrow]

can we do the macro last dance thing with shadowmeld ?

[alpine wraith]

not that i know

[remote cedar]

So we recrafting for sub for raid next reset?

[trail furnace]

Yikers

[limpid sage]

wtf buff balance immediately

[trail furnace]

Balance has been bottom LOU for a long time

But top M+

[fiery pewter]

Balance is struggling, never played

[short radish]

true

druids arent the most popular class in wow

[lucid jackal]

I am!

[long marlin]

the trick is to have never switched

[keen dome]

[fiery pewter]

If you don't stay with Sub in its worst, you don't deserve to stay with Sub in its mid

[humble jolt]

Guess who is back boys

[alpine wraith]

big crit

[fiery pewter]

Cant wait for the 12 million Eviscerate crits

[alpine wraith]

those are rookie numbers

unless you mean phys hit then oh boi

[rocky ocean]

[wide sonnet]

Hey guys I'll be here this weekend

My name is ryu

Ryukage

I'm going to take a break from dying to killingspree.

I was on dummies last night before bed and it felt pretty good on rotation just need to get used to it

[random hare]

no thanks

[vestal escarp]

yeah....

i should have replied no thanks to every ross post before too......

[random hare]

?!

[fiery pewter]

I tried going Outlaw for a week, felt good on target dummies and I liked the fast pace of it. Then I did my first dungeon and died to Killing Spree. I went back to Sub

[kind bluff]

I can't figure out outlaw at all

Way to hard for me brain

[fiery pewter]

It seems hard at first but its not bad, you just gotta be quick

[kind bluff]

I'm not, I'm dumb.

[fiery pewter]

At least you're pretty

[tulip gorge]

you just have to get into the flow of outlaw

[bright elk]

I like the idea of having cds all the time with outlaw but actually playing it and not having big burst moments like with sectec feels bad

[fiery pewter]

That was the other thing for me

Once you get to where you should be, your dps does not decrease or increase ever, unless there is down time where you cant attack

[bright elk]

Yeah the outlaw in my guild pumps over time and usually creeps up by the end of a fight but being top during the opener is big dopamine lol

[haughty mural]

Thought he is still muted

[valid marsh]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vestal escarp]

How can you mute ross, funniest poster

[haughty mural]

Ask whispyr

[vestal escarp]

He must have exhausted him

Understandable

||the wait is killing me chat||

[vale pine]

do some visions to pass the time

[clever delta]

imagine if that tfd bug worked on bosses

or was it like that intended

so we have use for vanish

that would be hilarious

[honest saddle]

thats why you do early prog pulls as sub to feel good about yourself, then move to outlaw or sin near the kill

[vale pine]

image if tfd was just out of combat

[vestal escarp]

We dont want strict uses for vanish for dps

[vale pine]

so it worked just like with the bug

without a bug

[clever delta]

dust enjyoers disagree

[vestal escarp]

They bit the dust

[clever delta]

can i use that ss vanish tech withnout macro

just press ss and vanish at same time

[shut ridge]

they are not human

[rose crag]

how sparing am i supposed to be with Shadow Dance?

i basically press it on CD, but I keep encountering pockets where I don't have any Shadow Dance or Symbols charges available, so I'm just Backstabbing and praying for combo points

[dusk stone]

i tried it once i think i got it to work once

[pliant topaz]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[pliant topaz]

its not a use on cd button

sub is very reliant on damage windows, and the activators for those arent when dance is up. its a mixture of your larger cds (flag/blades) timings + sod / sectech as activators. dance is the button you press when all other conditions are met.

the gudes do a great job explainin this with pictures

[rose crag]

ahhh sure, sure. thanks!! i'll take a look!

[dusk stone]

its like this

if you are 40~ seconds from flag being up dont press dance in raid

if you are 23-30 seconds from flag being up in keys dont press it until you are super comfortable with the spec

[vale pine]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[pliant topaz]

im not a fan of specific numbers, becaue theyre meaningless ont heir own and just confuse someone whos newer to the spec. I much prefer concepts and ideas. why ~40 second during raid? because the goal is to use 2 dance charges during flag. This is a general acceptable concept. but ~40 second is a specific number reliant on cp income. what if you dont get to hit boss for 20 seconds? then it should be ~60 seconds, what if there are ads? then its ~20 seconds. u get my point

[dusk stone]

i didnt want to type out the 5 paragraphs associated for a new person

[pliant topaz]

fair enough. I just think concepts are generally more useful, but I could be straight up wrong, idk tbh. regardless appreciate all of you guys helping out each other. its what makes RH so based ❤️ :3

[dusk stone]

the thought occured to me too

there's a lot of information newer players need

[vestal escarp]

Bro felt he had to let out that yapp

[pliant topaz]

i do be enjoynig ocasional yap

[dusk stone]

i mean armin isnt wrong

[pliant topaz]

yeah, this is afaik one of fuus bigger gripes with the spec. its not very intuitive. There is a lot of burden of knowledge on the players to pick it up just to be able to perform at a bare minimum level. but then theres not a lot of mastery to be gained after that (this is more so for all specs in wow not just sub but yea)

[dusk stone]

problem is is that its also like 1.6 or 1.7 dances sometimes and its 2 flat other times

[fiery pewter]

I used to find myself short on shit when I first started all the time

[dusk stone]

bro his gripe should be that we are 30% behind the best spec in raid on some kills and almost twice that in keys

[fiery pewter]

Or instances where no dance, but 2 charges of symbols

Or SecTec is up but no symbols

[pliant topaz]

tuning is w/e. sometimes youre tuned like amirdrasil sometimes youre tuned like azshara it is what it is

[shut ridge]

sextec

[dusk stone]

yeah ik

wanted to get that out tho

i looked at logs last night, felt badge

[shut ridge]

what if we deleted CDR

[pliant topaz]

I will say though, it never feels good to perform very well and just be at the very bottom because of tuning. kinda kills peoples enjoyment of the game specially during farm

[dusk stone]

we will be better after tuning supposedly

i said this last night though

[shut ridge]

we will not be surpassing assassination but that’s okay

[pliant topaz]

kinda one of the reasons i quit. in 11.1 I got my parses done early, then during farm, u couldnt try to go for 100s anymore because oh well, theres a new buff every week, parsing kinda dead, oh well i cant even blast in raid because spec sucks, oh well, im not even excited about gear because my entire gear caps out at daggers + trinket.

[dusk stone]

in blizzard other abandoned project, starcraft2 they basically had no balance developers and they eventually let the community do it

[pliant topaz]

getting title as sin i guess was my next option? but that shits boring so i quit

[dusk stone]

it would not hurt if the more educated people of this channel came up with proposed changes

[pliant topaz]

they did

[shut ridge]

they definitely have

[dusk stone]

well if thats the case, where is it and why isn't it pinned

[pliant topaz]

what do you think of shadowcraft right now?

[dusk stone]

the intern needs to see it

[shut ridge]

proposed changes were not really implemented

[pliant topaz]

because that talent is what it is because of us

and it was one of the only times they ever listened to our suggestions and changed the spell

[dusk stone]

i understand that portion yes that sometimes we are listened to

[shut ridge]

they’re not monitoring this place like that I’m sure

[dusk stone]

my point is if we suck coming up with less complicated proposed changes have a bigger chance of being implemented and thus us balanced

than not if dev time is limited

[pliant topaz]

the changes to deathstalker, you can read my post on the forum during beta, and track the changes to dethstalker as a hero talent vs the first iteration. it was litearlly line by line what I asked in the forum (which was a compilation of suggestions by TC and other members here)

[shut ridge]

realz is locked in blizz hq basement (free him)

[pliant topaz]

so sometimes they listen

but also, 99% of times they dont

[shut ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/emoji-angry-trapped-in-a-jar-gif-5194152463397428009

[pliant topaz]

so we gave up wating time

[dusk stone]

yeah giving up the issue tbh

if i gave up i'd just go play havoc rn because it isn't 50% behind

[wispy bolt]

5% doesnt seem like it'll change anything in m+ whelp

Still bleed

[shut ridge]

AR kinda stinky

[dusk stone]

being competitive isnt tho

[shut ridge]

in what regard? farm? can’t say I care too much beyond not being in the basement

keys? sure but we have a very viable spec

[dusk stone]

i am not particularly qualified

but i would say that there is a issue with how our talents work in so much that you can't balance m+ and raid properly

combined with the complexity of the class which probably keeps it away from the higher tiers and balancing

for example we're like almost a flat million behind other specs in raid compared to like dev? and marksman for some fights. In keys we're 50% behind outlaw on brew and somewhere between 30-50% behind in other keys

[pliant topaz]

I dont play the game anymore but I dont think its that bad from screenshots Ive seen

[dusk stone]

so its actually a two fold issue

it is though

on cinderbrew the highest sub parse is around 4.1 and outlaw is seen doing over six million

the wcl logs participation or w/e it is is also misleading sub is not great in raid

[pliant topaz]

m+ logs have always been kinda xD dont take it seriously

[swift tinsel]

What that doesn’t show tho is burst peaks, which sub absolutely dumpsters outlaw on

[dusk stone]

they are actually consistent

i looked at stuff that was s1 df last night and stuff that wasn't and 30% is a pretty frequent number so far

yeah but there's no niche for that in keys and none in raid really

[swift tinsel]

Huh

There is typically a place where burst is valuable

Which you saw sub excel in earlier in the season

OAB, Rik, etc

But then bc of tuning got outpaced

[cold kernel]

there is, sub is too garbo for it to matter

[vale pine]

mythic+ was never rly tuned around

[pliant topaz]

do you remember DF season4 ?

[vale pine]

tuning is mostly done for raiding

[dusk stone]

well it cant just not be considering how big of a part of the content of endgame it is

[vale pine]

this is wh bigger diffrences exist when you push keys

[dusk stone]

other specs also get tuned for m+ like uhdk, arcane etc

[vale pine]

for what its worth, you can play everything if you are doing 14 or 16s

assuming your gear is good

[swift tinsel]

Didn’t really play s4

[dusk stone]

sorry i dont mean to come across as so doomer

[pliant topaz]

well it was what youre saying (kinda). The entire meta (and i mean litearlly the only thing playable was Spriest + mage or destro + aug

[swift tinsel]

lol there’s typically at least some dooming going on here

[pliant topaz]

any other comp was like 3-4 keys behind

anyways

but the emta was burst (kinda)

they played around spriest 2 min cds.

people would litearlly run around and afk

[dusk stone]

the other problem we have kinda is that we as a physical user in a world of castercraft comp typically

[swift tinsel]

Oh yeah the Exodia season

[pliant topaz]

then pull like 45% mob count for priests 2 minutes. then litearlly afk again

but the concept was you were pulling the dungeon in like 4 pulls

all around priest 2 min cds

because the cds were impactful

[swift tinsel]

Yeah I vaguely remember watching streams with that gameplay loop

[pliant topaz]

but if you remember that meta, the difference was that sub could do okay burst, but then its damage would drop to 0

whereas priest would do the same damage as subs peak burst, sustained for like 3 minutes)

[swift tinsel]

And got almost weekly Link tuning

[pliant topaz]

the thing is, u can have burst, but if burst is too high, it breaks the game because u end up with boomie meta in shadowlands

[swift tinsel]

But never reined in

[pliant topaz]

they dont want burst to be so high that it litearlly breaks the games mechanics

[swift tinsel]

Oh yeah, that’s what they were worried about this past ptr cycle

[pliant topaz]

but if your entire damge is burst. and then sustained drops to 0, youre not really functional in m+

[swift tinsel]

Bc the tier set led to some substantial burst

[dusk stone]

so what i said earlier was true then

we just need more damage outside of cds

[pliant topaz]

damage is just a tuning thing and a curve.

they want u to do idk 1 bil damage over 5 minutes lets say

they can make u do 500 mil damage over 30 seconds. then 0 for 2 minutes, then another 500 mill over 30 seconds

o rhtye can make u do litearlly flat damage constant the entire time

it depends how u want the curve to look like

[swift tinsel]

This is one of the more polarizing issues with sub. Personally I like the trade off of bigger burst and lower sustain, others want a flatter profile

[dusk stone]

they did that to us too apparently

[dusk stone]

yeah but go look at what armin said

[pliant topaz]

hes not wrong

sub players as a whole want the spec t be bursty

that was the whole dilemma in df rework

[dusk stone]

thats probably part of why we aren't tuned that greatest, because if we burst like we need to it breaks the game

[swift tinsel]

Yeah it’s just a matter of what concession to make in terms of burst

[pliant topaz]

in s1 and s2 of df, sub was flatter than my ex

and people didnt like that

so the reworked put substantially more power in cds

removed resources (energy / cp) outside of cds

and gave you this

but then blizzard came and said okay mr realz i see what youve done, but we cant have a spec be this bursty.

and then the tuning problems began

[lilac stag]

I want dance to be bursty

[dusk stone]

was it something they actually said that they were concerned some classes would do too much burst?

[swift tinsel]

It was evident by the tuning decisions

[pliant topaz]

not sure if directly said but def implied

and also yeah, pretty obvious based on decisions made

[swift tinsel]

Bc they want to avoid like armin said SL boomie

[dusk stone]

well that explains why sub bad a bit

[swift tinsel]

And dust let us move stuff around to take advantage of our burst

But that added ‘complexity’ that didn’t sit well with some people

[dusk stone]

what is it that was actually broken in SL that boomie did

[swift tinsel]

Venthyr ability

Gave them insane ramping burst

[dusk stone]

like are we talking that it just deleted adds or something that made dealing with a raid boss phase not a thing or?

[swift tinsel]

They would do far and away the most damage in the game, then literally afk

There’s plenty of vids where you can see the damage disparity

[dusk stone]

ok will check that out

[swift tinsel]

Similar to uhdk’s recent performance the last couple xpacs

[dusk stone]

but worse?

i was actually thinking that is what we should look like in keys

[swift tinsel]

Boomie was a combo of it was wildly powerful and felt extremely shitty to play

Unholy packed their damage into garg windows but got their burst nerfed and baseline buffed

In mid df I think?

[dusk stone]

and then like there's this patch where uhdk was doing half of its damage in blood beast

[swift tinsel]

The rng of that makes it a bit less egregious because they’re still quite strong without it

[pliant topaz]

it broke the game dude..

like during the raid

u would get like 3 boomies

then they would burst

[swift tinsel]

Yeah it’s something that shouldn’t ever exist again

[pliant topaz]

and litearl phases of bosses would be skipped

[dusk stone]

i was talking like uhdk specifically

[vestal escarp]

realz was typing in chat but we scared him away

[pliant topaz]

hi to him anyways, hope hes doing well

[dusk stone]

like if we did 30-35 mil openers in keys and then zero thats actually fine

[pliant topaz]

thats not fine though

[north schooner]

a damage profile that extreme is very difficult to work with in m+

[lilac stag]

Realz tweak dance CDR. It’s too tight.

[pliant topaz]

youre too tight

[dusk stone]

yeah we would be within the top 5 specs for sure, cant have that

[pliant topaz]

[pliant topaz]

thats not the issue

sub has been great many many times

[lilac stag]

[pliant topaz]

theyre not sitting there tiwrling their evil mustache that spec must suck

even if it feels like it sometimes

although, wouldnt be surprised if they dont want sub to be the optimal rogue spec

[dusk stone]

i havent looked at all the logs, but so far i havent seen that we have been good since we were as stealthi put it 'flatline abominations'

[pliant topaz]

we were the best spec in the game in df season 3 post rework

[vestal escarp]

as if it sint any more obvious

[dusk stone]

what was the issue in df s3

[swift tinsel]

It’s funny though, when sub was looking to be strong going into this tier people would pop in and talk about how much fun they had playing trickster sub

[pliant topaz]

what issue?

the spec was great

but it had this thing called "shadowdust"

kekw

[dusk stone]

well if it was great why did they make it no so great

[vestal escarp]

collateral greatness

[pliant topaz]

okay so in season 3 2 things happened

[round latch]

the nerfs came thats why

[pliant topaz]

no thats not what happened

1. the spec had a giga tierset

like our tier set was so much better than everyone else

[swift tinsel]

I miss her

[round latch]

sub nerfed brother

[pliant topaz]

not only in terms of raw damage, but also in terms of resources

[round latch]

what tier sets

ofc tier set was good

nerfs happened

[pliant topaz]

the tier, felt great to use, was really fun, enabled some (maybe borderline degen ) gambling scenarios

was super great

2. the bosses design.

[swift tinsel]

1cp ruptures

[pliant topaz]

in season 3 , sub had this thing called shadowdust (some hate some love it)

[pliant topaz]

no realz removed that in beta after my giga degen rant

back to bosses

[swift tinsel]

Yeah I remember that

[pliant topaz]

last 3 bosses were basically perfect for sub

sub could move its cooldowns around to perfectly match all damage amp phases / important boss timers

so it ws just giga good

but this is raid

in m+ sub was the least played spec in the game

[vestal escarp]

last 2 were very good for sin too

[pliant topaz]

pretty sure the only people in title range plauying sub were kush eleem myself and prophet

[dusk stone]

realz is the intern they keep locked in the basement?

[tepid trellis]

[pliant topaz]

u were playing outlaw coper

[swift tinsel]

Nah mlg caliber rogue realz

[tepid trellis]

i got title as sub

pushed higher as outlaw

Raz got title as sub

[pliant topaz]

eh thats fair ig

oh yeah raz too i forgot

[dusk stone]

meaning it was that bad?

[pliant topaz]

it was very hard to make work

dust was very unintuitive because it basially had a spreadsheet

[sullen hare]

Didn't zeross get title as sub?

[tepid trellis]

no

[pliant topaz]

like stealthi litearlly made a spreadsheet for dust in raid

[dusk stone]

raid might be your set piece but it is not your main bread and butter for play time

[swift tinsel]

Dust in keys took a fair bit of experience and not many folks wanted to put in the work

[pliant topaz]

and people lost their minds because waaawaaa too complicated too op

but in keys, u cant make a spreadsheet so u really needed to understand wtf was going on to make it work

also since df s3 blackpowder got buffed by almost 70%

[vestal escarp]

was not the play in keys typcally

[dusk stone]

holy hell put me in a time machine and send me back and sign me up

being overly complicated and powerful sounds nice

[round latch]

yo man,when was sub nerfed in DF

[swift tinsel]

It def wasn’t recommended for most folks but it was potent if you could make it work

[round latch]

was it on last season

[tepid trellis]

mid season 3 it was nerfed by 5%

single target that is

[void ocean]

dust is shit and deserved to be deleted.

[tepid trellis]

Assa got overbuffed into season 4

[round latch]

it was 2 nerfs though right

[tepid trellis]

so it just made sub look worse

[pliant topaz]

sub s4 was a disaster

[tepid trellis]

nah it was just an evis nerf

[pliant topaz]

was awful + log bugs that lasted 2 months

holy fuck

[old venture]

To clarify, it’s never really been powerful

Just powerful by rogue standards after they took assa out back and beat it with the nerf bat 80 times

[pliant topaz]

not really. because theres fewer people playing it, people who have to play it but dont want the complexity hate it (we have litearl green name people here who had to play sub but couldnt because it was so weird at tht time, and hated it)

but also, regarding m+, this is a litearl comment from myself at that time

in 2023.... and guess what. I was right

bp has been buffed by 70-80% since then

[vestal escarp]

the 6% aura in s4 was just rewind of the two rounds at the start of amirdrassil, 15% kb and 4% aura

[dusk stone]

yeah i understand i was saying just personally that ounds nice

it sounds like an awful design phase

[pliant topaz]

sure but not healthy for a game like wow

other games can accomidate that. but not wow

[tepid trellis]

@pliant topaz which one do you wanna do?

[old venture]

It was fun, but also a nightmare

[swift tinsel]

Hisssss

[pliant topaz]

I miss her

[vestal escarp]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[old venture]

Why

Why make me relive this

[swift tinsel]

I think I have that saved on my pc somewhere lol

[dusk stone]

yes

[swift tinsel]

Had the MRT notes

[old venture]

Same

I think I still do

[swift tinsel]

I might too lol

[tepid trellis]

i added mrt notes to the sheet

[pliant topaz]

okay but lowkey dust on tindral felt sooooo fun

[tepid trellis]

had to make em by hand

[pliant topaz]

the double vanish opener

[old venture]

Yeah like weeks after I killed Fyrakk

I was manually entering that shit for prog

[swift tinsel]

I learned this tier you can export lorrgs timings to MRT

[pliant topaz]

the flag blades vanish intermission into blades vanish flag intermission

[old venture]

[pliant topaz]

was so cool that every part of the fight you were doing something different

[vestal escarp]

tindral was just so silly

fight had a 40s forced downtime that somehow synced with the spec downtime

[lucid jackal]

Dust bad

[pliant topaz]

but also i remember s4 going back to tindral and over gearing the fuck out of it, and nothing timing up annd me being miserable LOL

[old venture]

As someone who pulled rwf nerfed tindral, Man fuck tindral

[vestal escarp]

as sub it was fun

[pliant topaz]

boss was aids but i enjoyed the sub gameplay on it

fuck man i miss scana

[old venture]

Y’all are coping

[pliant topaz]

wheres he when u need him

[vestal escarp]

unload opener do chikcen chill and fly

[old venture]

That boss was literally mechanic diarrhea

[dusk stone]

so what im seeing so far is there's always been pretty large design issues for at least awhile

[old venture]

You know the only reason dust was hated

[vestal escarp]

yeah since forever

[old venture]

Was because sub’s CD spreads made no fucking sense

They literally just needed to adjust flag and it would’ve been fine lmao

[pliant topaz]

fuu and I said this alot.

[dusk stone]

sc2 was in a shithole of the worst designed metagame for like over 2 years because it was also a red headed step child of blizzard

[old venture]

That’s the only reason it became an issue

[pliant topaz]

we said dust was fine, it was solving problems with the spec that otherwise would fuck the spec over really hard

[dusk stone]

community got to step up and help fix the problem

that should be done again

[pliant topaz]

but flag being weird timer, vanish not reseting its own cd, shit not lining up was the main issue

regarding the issues with subs design @dusk stone realz himself said this

so i dont blame him

[old venture]

Dust in keys was actually SO sick btw

[pliant topaz]

there are many people in here who all want differnt things

[old venture]

You could literally destroy an entire problematic pack single handedly

[dusk stone]

there are right and wrong answers

[swift tinsel]

Eh

[dusk stone]

you don't use the wrong ones

[pliant topaz]

not really

[old venture]

You felt like you could swing a bad pull into your group’s favor

[pliant topaz]

there are no wrong answers

[dusk stone]

well yes we actually heard one of those earlier

[old venture]

Because dust also reset kick

[dusk stone]

like burst being so strong it breaks the game

[pliant topaz]

just because u like something and prefer it, doesnt mean others dont get to disagree and want different things

[vestal escarp]

yeah there's still people that miss aberrus design i dont blame em but it's understandable

[pliant topaz]

again its all contextual. in wows context yes such high burst breaks the game. but in other games? well...

[old venture]

https://tenor.com/view/ew-brotha-eww-meme-eww-eww-gif-gif-1452572770363109714

[warm goblet]

That was so sick

[vestal escarp]

for keys mostly

[pliant topaz]

as an example, rengar can kill you in litearlly 0.04 seconds right now. but that doenst break game. its context dependant

[dusk stone]

like i get the point

[pliant topaz]

I personally blame them.

[dusk stone]

but i feel like we could definetely make it work cause we all center around sub not being awful to the point we use spreadsheets

[pliant topaz]

that is a wrong answer for sure

[dusk stone]

as was just shown

[pliant topaz]

if there ever was

[pliant topaz]

sure, if you have resources to spend on it you can make it work

[swift tinsel]

I skipped that tier, was that the super high dance uptime season

[pliant topaz]

idk how blizzard works, idk how much time is allocated to design for specs

[dusk stone]

I'm not qualified tbh otherwise i would

[pliant topaz]

idk how much they even care about it

[dusk stone]

too new

[tepid trellis]

also Venthyr ramp boomy burst was not an issue on normal fights

like its single target burst was high

[old venture]

https://tenor.com/view/jose-mourinho-sweet-trouble-gif-26762341

[tepid trellis]

but not game breaking

[dusk stone]

thats why i mentioned sc2 specifically, they had an intern that was basically an absent father

[shut ridge]

I’m not qualified either but that will not stop me from ripping my horrendous opinions god bless

[tepid trellis]

the issue it had was it had a 40 yard fcking AOE burst

[vestal escarp]

sod uptime tier, dance was played single charge, but the whole economy of the spec was different

[old venture]

Idk sylv felt pretty fucking garbage without one

[tepid trellis]

u typed before reading the rest

[swift tinsel]

Ohhh that’s right, ty

[old venture]

Because when I was progging that fight with a boomkin that wanted to play fae

I’ve actually been terrorized so much when I was a cutting edge raider

No wonder I hated my life

Fae on sylv. My brewmaster spinning off platforms on sylv. Being forced to prog anduin as a rogue. Indiscriminate carnage on dathea

[pliant topaz]

poor oxi...

thats just cyberbullying

[old venture]

[pliant topaz]

IC deathea sounds actually illegal though

just go sub + boon inshallah

[old venture]

Our prot paladin couldn’t hold toll for 2s bro

[pliant topaz]

or pull a stealthi (i think) and just sit on bos

[old venture]

We needed the silence not the damage

Lmao you think I did it for damage?

[tepid trellis]

i had a folder with so many screenshots where all 3 of our venthyr boomkins died at the exact same time all together

[old venture]

At least I went out on a happy ending

Back to back hall of fame

[pliant topaz]

oxi u still playing POE?

[old venture]

Wdym

It’s been 3.25 for 10 months lmao

[pliant topaz]

oh is game deadge?

[old venture]

We get 3.26 June 13th

[pliant topaz]

eksdeee

[old venture]

I’ve been playing wow actually

[pliant topaz]

oofff

[old venture]

Hit 3k on Tuesday

[pliant topaz]

ey lets go!

[old venture]

Which means I’m done for the season lmao

[teal prawn]

doing muck runs in the netherlands

[old venture]

Maybe get aotc for funsies

[pliant topaz]

wym netherlands?

bro is in land of toast and beans

[dusk stone]

if you put beans on toast you are a savage

[teal prawn]

he got voluntold he's going to the netherlands this week

[old venture]

@sly shore ?

Are you a savage

IT AINT CHEWSDAY INNIT

ANSWER

[pliant topaz]

nah he actualy makes good food

[old venture]

Armin the office closes at 3 but I’m gonna go home and work lmao

[shut ridge]

gotta get those billables in before the end of the month

[vale pine]

just a reminder that this was during a time classic and pvp andies also gave feedback like

"make bakcstab the heaviest hitter of the spec"

[pliant topaz]

I mean who am I to say they dont get a say

[dusk stone]

i mean we can do that

[pliant topaz]

they pay as much as you and I do, and can share their opinion

[dusk stone]

you change the name of flagellation to 'back stab'

[pliant topaz]

and realz can take that input and do with it what he thinks is best

[north schooner]

50% auto attack damage

[dusk stone]

thanks for the history less on sub

[lilac stag]

Armin did you lift today?

[vale pine]

absolutely

my point was, people felt a lot more vocal about subtlety

diffrent parts of the community

where for e.g. assassiantion it was mostly one group of experts

so the feedback did feel a lot more chaotic compared

[lilac stag]

Mystler and his love of shadowstrike / dance being focal point of dmg.

[hollow spear]

Well, based on how things stand rn, sin has to be the "easy" spec

[lilac stag]

and it’s still very complicated for most players

[dusk stone]

thats what blows my mind

spec is 5x as simple and its complicated for people

[hollow spear]

Sub's cooldown Management is complicated for a long time before you "get it" and outlaw is generally hard to pull off/punishing on top of being high apm

[lilac stag]

wows player base is old and no one wants uber complicated shit. They want to sit down and just play the game. Why classic still works.

[pliant topaz]

I did the days I wfh I go around 6:30 am!

[hollow spear]

Jesus, on an empty stomach?

[pliant topaz]

yeah usually

[lilac stag]

I lift fasted

feels the best

for me

[pliant topaz]

except sundays. Sundays I do deadlifts and so i have some protein shake before that and go later around 8:30 - 9 m

[vale pine]

tbh ambush was one of the iconic damage sources, so it makes sense

also cooldons doing the most damage feels like a very powerful idea/concept

so i don't see a big issue in both of these ideas

[placid arrow]

guys im sorru bout noob question but how sub in m+ rn?

[vale pine]

sub is playable, its not the best but you can make it work even in higher keys

there is iirc a russian guy who brings it to very high key levels

its not easy to make work tho, so if you are new to the spec expect some troubles

[pliant topaz]

well not everything can be very strong. you have a maximum power budget you can give the spec, so u need to decide where u want the power to come from.

[vale pine]

cooldown management is your most important thing to optimize

[dusk stone]

lashga quit

[lilac stag]

The double ring gloomblade shit was just bad

[placid arrow]

thank you

[vestal escarp]

it's alex

[lilac stag]

And that was what certain people in this discord who had an ear of the devs wanted

[dusk stone]

its playable in a lot of keys but its 30-50% behind other rogue specs atm

[vale pine]

i think its currently distributed well, the only thing that is not working is aoe, but as you see with assassiantion thats nothing that blizz couldn't fix by making aoe stronger independently of cooldowns too

[lilac stag]

And it resulted in the spec ping ponging back and forth design wise

looking like a poor version of assa

[placid arrow]

woah thats a hude diff

[vale pine]

my concerns are more about the layers of abilities we have and how some don't even seem logical after reading the tooltip

[old venture]

Which is something they failed to do with sub. Also black powder sucks

[pliant topaz]

not sure I follow the econd part of this. the cant fix by making aoe stronger independently of cooldowns

[vale pine]

look at assassiantion

[old venture]

Yes you can

[vale pine]

it has ct scale per target hit

[old venture]

They could easily do the same scaling for sub aoe

[vale pine]

so assasisantion is allowed to do massive sustained damage

while not sacraficing for it

[pliant topaz]

yes and no. sin doesnt really have aoe cooldowns. DM does nothing in aoe. KB is "fine" in aoe mostly due to intearction with caustic.

[lilac stag]

assa ramps with dots, what are we going to ramp out of cds?

[pliant topaz]

sub cds give flat mastery + infinite resources

[old venture]

I mean realistically neither does blades

The extra cp doesn’t do shit for sub in aoe

[hazy breach]

DM doubles amp poison, which makes envenom bigger, so its not nothing

[pliant topaz]

blades still gives a 20% + shadow amp damage amp

so its there

[hazy breach]

But its not an amazing aoe cd no

[pliant topaz]

sure but its not as much as blades which is like 30% ish

and blades is bad

[old venture]

Blades is very bad

[vale pine]

you could also make secret do more aoe

[old venture]

Which is why they cut its CD and it’s still mediocre lmao

[lilac stag]

disable BP in dance. Buff BP

[vestal escarp]

it's 20%

[hazy breach]

Blades is fine. Assa had some intentionality with how theyre playing in aoe

[vale pine]

which would make burst higher but also make overall aoe stronger

[dusk stone]

to a degree our aoe is the problem

[old venture]

I think they need to nix BP entirely and give sectech aoe scaling

[hazy breach]

Sub hasnt had anybody try to make sub aoe work

[vestal escarp]

still not casting many

[pliant topaz]

im aware. it was even worse when it didnt work with sectech.

[hazy breach]

Its just been left to rot

[lilac stag]

or just give us combo back and let cleave do its thing

[paper iron]

eleem

you said happy eviscerating

[keen dome]

🙏

[paper iron]

but we wished for a bp buff, we wanted to be happy blackpowdering

!!

[dusk stone]

if you want to go aoe route, we need to see like 30-35mil in openers for keys

[hazy breach]

https://tenor.com/view/wrong-drumpf-trump-stupid-gif-6220235

[dusk stone]

if the damage is 0 outside of that

[paper iron]

🤭

[old venture]

God I’d sacrifice someone’s first born child for combo back

[lilac stag]

Sub doesn’t need monster aoe

[old venture]

Sub needs a niche that fits

[lilac stag]

Combo and cleave would be tits

[old venture]

The BP bandaid is a failure

[keen dome]

Combo and cleave would rule. Proper identity and very strong prio

[old venture]

You either buff it so its oppressively good and people bitch that it’s a two button spec in AoE or it just sucks

[vale pine]

i mean sub aoe was good in s1/2 DF

[dusk stone]

what im saying specifically

is that i need to see 30-35 mil in a pull like p1 cinderbrew to make the damage outside of it worth it

[vale pine]

its just that as eleem mentioned, assassination got a lot of dev time for talent updates and focus to make it good in m+ and raiding

this hasn't happened to an equal amount on sub

[dusk stone]

yeah thats a problem too

[vestal escarp]

not happening with blizz, burst is le bad evil

[vale pine]

so obviousely we can't assume similar outcome

[dusk stone]

we are currently in an area where we're twice as bad in keys as we are in raid

that needs to be fixed

[vale pine]

that said, sub plays 100 times better

[old venture]

I think making sectech scale with target count up to 8 targets and heavily leaning into sectech as sub’s aoe fits the finisher niche. Versus something infinitely spammable that just sucks in either damage or gameplay loop

[vale pine]

(opinion, ofc very biased)

[pliant topaz]

no on. we need another 20% bp buff so we bp in single target. im down

[vale pine]

bp spam was popualr because it was easy

you did have a very high skill floor

so even if you did not know sub much

[vestal escarp]

BP at 4cp at 2 targets

[vale pine]

storm + bp and using your cds did give you good results

[old venture]

[dusk stone]

BP is particularly our ability for keys is it not and evis leans more into raid

[keen dome]

I want them to do this because I think it would be very funny, and I am curious how long it'd remain like that.

[worn merlin]

noob question

[pliant topaz]

theyd fix it very fast.

[worn merlin]

is this pressing backstab after sdance for a danse macabre stack?

how is it pressing backstab same global as dance

[hazy breach]

Dance isnt on global

[worn merlin]

do u need a macro to do this

[hazy breach]

No

[worn merlin]

or can u just not be perfect

i think i have too much ms to do this consistently lmao

[vestal escarp]

[worn merlin]

i think im trippin

[pliant topaz]

whats your ms ? <100 i think itll be fine

[worn merlin]

usually around 90

[pliant topaz]

you should be fine

[vestal escarp]

chat leaf user is talking about two different buttons off global that cant be macroed

[dusk stone]

no we can't we need a simpler solution

[worn merlin]

prefaced with noob question

sorry for breathing

ill blow my brains out and ur going in the note

!

[keen dome]

Well this took a turn

[pliant topaz]

dont listen to him ask away, we are here to help

he just angy

[dusk stone]

we are here to help yes

[worn merlin]

i understand it now tbh

i just have to backstab first

i was looking at apl too literally and dancing b4 the stab

[vestal escarp]

? kek it was an inside joke

[worn merlin]

ty for help

[pliant topaz]

yeah, logic is if you have premeditation, backstab gives you full cps. so u can get full cps + dm stack ez

[dusk stone]

putting symbols and dance on the same macro is fine for learning

just be able to press it outside of that macro

[old venture]

I love you hippo

[worn merlin]

Thank u oxi im trying my best for u

[pliant topaz]

i love oxi and hippo

[old venture]

https://tenor.com/view/monkey-love-monkey-cute-monkey-hug-hug-monkey-gif-8658152799845650442

We all started somewhere homie

[pliant topaz]

https://tenor.com/view/monkey-love-monkey-cute-monkey-hug-hug-monkey-gif-8658152799845650442

[old venture]

You’ll get it

I know you will

[worn merlin]

i played sub in a clear the other day and i did ok dmg but i did genuinely 0 on galywix and idk why

so i started reading apl and getting stunlocked

[pliant topaz]

its a big unintuitive yea

[old venture]

Yeah… reading apl will do that to you

[pliant topaz]

but once u get the baseline its not that hard

[worn merlin]

im rlly bad at overspending dances in cds

[old venture]

I just let Fuu, whispyr and Eleem do the apl thinking

[worn merlin]

cause im just so hyped 2 press evis

[vestal escarp]

Sod + dance usage is a problem all newbies approach

[hazy breach]

Reading the APL is generally not recommended instead of guides

[old venture]

Me unga bunga press buttons

[keen dome]

Same

[old venture]

[worn merlin]

sub probably owns now tho after 5%

[keen dome]

Also, Heroic gally? Dropping a SecTec as the add spawns is some juicy damage.

[dusk stone]

do you mean outside of cds

[worn merlin]

yea like after my sblades drops

and i have a dance and a symbols im literally like

"what if the dopamine didnt stop"

[dusk stone]

that is how you sub yes

[worn merlin]

and next sblades i get like 1.5 dances

worst shit ever ...

[dusk stone]

using 2 charges with blades is ideal

[worn merlin]

also what the fuck is up with maghgar and this spec

[dusk stone]

a simple rule i use it to not spend dances after 40s remaining on flag in raid, but there is more to it than that

[worn merlin]

it was 40k dps for me

[twilit phoenix]

https://tenor.com/view/ponke-ponkesol-monke-monkey-solana-gif-4359948587008477353

[pliant topaz]

oofff. yea u need to plan ahead. make sure u get 2 per flag/blades always

[dusk stone]

the distinction is actally 3 dances per flag and 2 dances per flag

the 3rd one is cdr

[worn merlin]

yea my gear is like lowkey goated after recrafting

sub is my calling

[vale pine]

for some things we maybe have or had simpler solutions in the past

[worn merlin]

sin is dreadful in raid

[vale pine]

so simple is not always bad

[keen dome]

More Sub rogues hell yeah

[dusk stone]

i say simple because we are working with limited dev time

[keen dome]

Dozens of us! Dozens!!

[dusk stone]

which is why i also say do his work for him

[pliant topaz]

bro is just a shadowcraft hater >:C im kidding

[dusk stone]

and we might get somewhere

[pliant topaz]

errr shadwotechniques

[vale pine]

haha, i did not even mention it in my wowhead article, i can link it to you if you want to read it

[dusk stone]

stuff like moving talents in the tree is probably a lot of work

as an example

buffing numbers is probably not as complicated

[pliant topaz]

we've chatted about it alot in dms i think haha

[worn merlin]

am i just doomed to circlet forever btw, jastor mythic doesnt even beat it in my gear

or just pray i get a myth track m+ ring with vers mastery on it

[dusk stone]

you need ritual bone brand and jastors to beat it

[hazy breach]

Or craft

[dusk stone]

like fazed might not be a bad target for tuning

[vale pine]

haha ye^^

[pliant topaz]

fazed is litearlly an aura buff. the most boring type of buff

[keen dome]

For what it's worth, two crafted rings beat circlet for me

[dusk stone]

yeah but i'm mostly talking about inbetween major patches

[pliant topaz]

i mean sub single targets fine in terms of gameplay and damage distribution

[dusk stone]

i would expect them to do more on actual patches given we see redesigns and stuff

its not really fine in raid no

[hazy breach]

Its is though

[pliant topaz]

only issues i have / had with sub is every talent is either mandaory or dead. there are no options.

just replace the dead talents, maybe add something that actually helps with the specs aoe and its w/e

[dusk stone]

we are at the bottom of raid, single target is 90% of what you do in raid

[pliant topaz]

taking RS in single target just shows how awful the design is

the gating of talents

the deisgn

w/e

anyways i gotta go sit in a meeting and listen to someone yap for an hour

[dusk stone]

have fun

you could just give us more shadowcraft procs thats an option

[vale pine]

have fun

[dusk stone]

that ones actually versatile too

game loop is less bad outside of cds

but maybe too much difference between cds and not to make that work

fuu what would be your preference for bringing sub in at least the top half of competitiveness overall for both game modes meaning m+ and raid

also OMG OMG OMG they fixed my renown!!!!!

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[small juniper]

🥹

[old venture]

ily babe

[dusk stone]

i am no longer 12% behind everyone else for no reason

[pliant topaz]

i missed you pookie.

[small juniper]

fking hell

im flattered

[fathom gazelle]

for mugz and gally mythic fight do u think sub after buffs will be good for those? or stay sin?

[bright elk]

Does sectec cleave adds on gally when he’s in the middle? I remember feeling like that was wonky during heroic but it’s been a while

[dusk stone]

does sectec not just go through the floor

[vale pine]

i mentioned making secret aoe stronger, which i feel would be the simplest way to buff it in m+

[tepid trellis]

target the adds

[vale pine]

secret is up a lot more so you would do insane damage at the start of most packs

[lilac stag]

speaking of dropping RS in ST. 5 min sim btw.

[vale pine]

and can cleave adds more efficiently in raid passively

[dusk stone]

doesnt tfd undersim

[vale pine]

gameplay wise i think a lot of qol changes would be nice to not have so many weird situations

[tepid trellis]

in dslice yes

[vale pine]

tfd only triggers once in the sim

[lilac stag]

how so? it's ST sim, you cant reset it

[tepid trellis]

not on patchwerk

[vale pine]

in raid sims it sims correct

[dusk stone]

yeah sectec sounds good

how much was it nerfed by

[lilac stag]

4 min sim

time to pack more juice in the opener

[lucid jackal]

Sin is the best melee dps by far on that fight

[sly shore]

Yes

[limpid sage]

Why are you guys simming this much

[vale pine]

5% at the start of the season

[dusk stone]

people made it sound like it was more

[lilac stag]

Why not?

[vale pine]

because its a 4 minute fight not 5 mins

[limpid sage]

I’m simming like 2565k

[lucid jackal]

Because ppl are very dramatic

[limpid sage]

Oh

[dusk stone]

how much would you have to buff sectec specifically for it to make sub aoe more respectable in the short term

[lilac stag]

5 min was 2.67

[lucid jackal]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/7v7hSEwPrz6UyoF3c5Hbnz

I'm missing OAB bracers and a real neck or a ring

[lilac stag]

Get gear. Sim high

[lucid jackal]

2.7 isn't that insane

[limpid sage]

Though I haven’t gotten everything upgraded yet

[lucid jackal]

thatll do it

[vale pine]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[limpid sage]

No time to spam gilded

[limpid sage]

What do you sim

[lucid jackal]

.

[limpid sage]

Nvm I can’t read

Ye saw as I sent xd

[sly shore]

wonder what I sim as sub now

[lucid jackal]

and like I said, I'm missing a lot of random gear

4 crafted items

[limpid sage]

You’ve gotta be in top 0.1% in terms of gear no?

[lucid jackal]

probs

[lilac stag]

I need to replace energy drink

Need a mugz kill first

[limpid sage]

We got mr mog to 20% the other day

How many pulls did it take you guys from that point?

We struggled with dps check on OAB, so I’m scared we’ll be stuck on that phase

[lucid jackal]

Play assa and the fight is free

[sly shore]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5W1s8TCCyDo4tyC7Ldpyoi

[lilac stag]

Why Smol HoC?

[chrome palm]

Any thoughts on dusk thread lining vs ascension vs focusing lenses? They all sim very close on pure ST which makes me think the first two get ahead with any aoe.

[lilac stag]

none of them matter. Focusing is safest

[chrome palm]

Duskthread in particular maybe gains value from exhil execution

[lilac stag]

Other rely on healers

embellishments are nothing worth worrying about

[haughty mural]

Ascension rely on crafted weap

[dusk stone]

i actually wonder if the dagger set is better than the embellishments themselves lol

theres a set bonus for crafted daggers

[chrome palm]

Duskthread on armor only is the worst offense imo

[lilac stag]

You’re a crafted weapon

time to ascend

[dusk stone]

i mean if i get to do that every 3 minutes i wont complain

please overload my blackpowder plz

[lucid jackal]

Lens is better for st

[chrome palm]

I know the perfect class for you

[lucid jackal]

by like 0.2%

[dusk stone]

did they give shaman shadow dance or something?

[chrome palm]

That’s why I’m thinking duskthread for cleave

[lucid jackal]

Do it then

[chrome palm]

I’m cloaking when adds spawn

[limpid sage]

Considered learning assa just for mug

And halving queue time for 12s

Sudden Demise is kinda metal

[keen dome]

Sudden Demise is a lot of fun

[dry plank]

I do not even notice this talent. What is fun?

[keen dome]

It's an Assa talent. Sadly.

[bright elk]

It’s op in the new visions

[alpine wraith]

sec tech is more op

you pull whole zone then they go poof

[bright elk]

Yep but cd

[vale pine]

lol

[bright elk]

That’s true make it count

[alpine wraith]

yea only need 1

[lilac stag]

Need a clip of this with masks on

[alpine wraith]

why do you want masks on

to get 200 more mementos

[lilac stag]

I mean why run anything now if you’re not either collecting masks or trying to challenge yourself?

[alpine wraith]

rn you farm mementos or not much else tbh

[north schooner]

no one care who you are until you put on the mask(s)

[alpine wraith]

so just do 4 min clears or less

fast

i actually wonder if you can 3 mask pull everything

maybe dwarven

[dusk stone]

cosmetics tbh

[lilac stag]

One of the warrior streamers did a 5 mask full class as fury. Boy was it sweaty.

[vale pine]

5 mask with current traits is kinda hard

[lilac stag]

Yep

Someone posted an outlaw rub and that was pretty smooth. Still really close.

[upbeat cradle]

first Rik Reverb in mm done, two daggers dropped, i'm the only rogue in the raid

life is good

[hexed sluice]

Haven't done 5 masks yet cause I need to still unlock multitudes. But 4 and 3 are pretty comfy as. Sub

My friend who's a caster was kinda tilted watching me just run through it all without a care

[left ledge]

Yeah you need good potion rng

Or else it’s kinda cooked

You also need soridormi to not be a dumbass

[upbeat cradle]

or don't use soridormi ?

she hasn't been any useful whenevr i saw her

[alpine wraith]

yea i never used her

[serene notch]

lol caught up on all the celebratory conversations over the last 24hrs over the 5%. It’s like watching the effects of Stockholm syndrome live.

[left ledge]

She does good damage no?

[upbeat cradle]

she also doubles the hp of the enemies lmao

[left ledge]

Wait what

Is that real

Or is that a meme on how much she pulls

[alpine wraith]

no it is not a meme

mobs have way more life

[thin sinew]

plus how many extra mobs you're being forced to kill as the dumbarse doesn't stealth like brann does

[upbeat cradle]

she counts as another player

[brittle plinth]

Ya don't use her

[dusk stone]

for some people, the rest of us normies have retained our doomer instincts

[haughty rose]

have all keys on 12. 1 13 missing for 3k. guess who doesn't get picked for 1h straight application spamming lmao

[serene notch]

Run your own key it’s the only way, I had to also learn the hard way.

[fiery pewter]

Msg them that its a UI bug, your spec is actually sin

[north schooner]

or tell them that you are getting +5% (don't tell them it's less) next reset so it will be fine

[dusk stone]

13s are hard keys

[brittle plinth]

Just ++12

[dusk stone]

Not because it's difficult but because groups relieve an instant debuff upon entering the key where there is a 90% chance the key fails instantly

[haughty rose]

just got an inv to cinderbrew. we wipe on first boss an lowest dps left instantly lmao

[distant rapids]

are we back

[alpine wraith]

we are mid but very back

[severe vapor]

mid is better than bottom

[dusk stone]

We are very not different In keys

Buff can be an order of magnitude larger and that only ties us with outlaw

An order of magnitude is 10x

[lone halo]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[brittle plinth]

You fucked up. He joined expecting a carry.

[bright elk]

does the latest raidbots build include the 5%?

[alpine wraith]

not likely

[hazy breach]

It wont until its live on NA

[lilac stag]

Where’s Fuu’s override.

[hazy breach]

Theres basically nothing changing anyway, we just do more damage, but if you really want to you can add this in expert mode.

override.spell_data=effect.191060.base_value=15.5```

[bright elk]

gotcha

[lyric lily]

Sub is back!!

[steady dune]

i always swap to ass/out to sign up for groups and then pull the ol switcheroo when im in. works pretty well

[flint parrot]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[exotic kelp]

is wow analyzer any good for sub?

[steady dune]

I dont think so, it rated my opening uses of SD as bad for some unknow reason

[exotic kelp]

Im looking to improve in general my parses, do I just drop logs here and hope someone better gives me pointers?

[steady dune]

you can do that or compare your pulls to the top handfull

[exotic kelp]

How do I see the top logs of other sub rogues. Ive not really poked around WCL too much in regards to others logs

[steady dune]

its in rakings > Timeline > actions

[lilac stag]

[steady dune]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/42?class=Rogue&spec=Subtlety

[lilac stag]

Use https://lorrgs.io/

[lapis plinth]

a 5% buff, nice

but did they fix any bugs is the real question 🙂

[steady dune]

sub is back bby!

[dusk stone]

Anyone know of a good place to recruit for an m+ team

[short radish]

pugging and making friends

[lilac stag]

raider.io m+ discord (no I don’t have a link use google)

[tribal blade]

could you google that link for me please

[swift tinsel]

Best I can do is Bing

Possibly AskJeeves

[dusk stone]

Yeah but I need different results lol

[short radish]

its the most reliable way

you push keys

and then add people who arent shit

and hopefully they add you

[round latch]

my magic ball says sub buffs is not done yet

called it 24/5/2025 07:00

[fiery pewter]

"After some more internal testing, we have identified that 5% is too much of a buff"

[round latch]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[round latch]

@vale pine lord fuu sir,EV or TD dont interact with Sub's shadow amps right?

[dusk stone]

You should see my 13's homie

If it was 14/15 yeah

[tepid trellis]

No

[round latch]

f@kin party poopers man

cant have them amps and meme a little

[worn ivy]

How big is 5% u think !

[wicked urchin]

it's 5%

(4.6)

[worn ivy]

https://tenor.com/view/nothing-just-hanging-around-gif-6244099902315757809

[wicked urchin]

crazy how math works

[chrome palm]

I guess enchants embellishments etc don’t count

[lilac stag]

Would you feel better if I said yes, but it doesn’t show up in details?

[worn ivy]

5% is like and extra deeper talent 🙂

[round latch]

could settle,jus' wanted to meme a bit

cheese them mfk@rs in shuffle for the lols

[tribal blade]

@leaden prairie was chatting with the boys in a key and a former rogue player quoted you saying only bad rogues need restealths

[plush roost]

Its true and also real

[tribal blade]

i hear it is true and real

[leaden prairie]

Yep

I said that

It's true

Real quote

[tribal blade]

quoted in 4k

[random hare]

Restealth is a sin thing only

[tribal blade]

yeah he was referencing sin haha

because i'm playing sin atm

[random hare]

Well it does need restealth in certain areas

[tribal blade]

yeah for sure

the most tilting part is pug tanks who pull a new pack when the last mob has like less than 3% hp

[raw rover]

noob question: do we ever have to manually apply slice and dice anymore? just got back and I'm not sure if I need a WA for this or if it became non factor because it activates by just doing rotation

[vale pine]

nope only shadow amp that works on items is the one from deathstalker

[lilac stag]

You can between packs in keys to use cps for cdr. Otherwise not really.

[raw rover]

ok thanks! and another noob question. i remember the stealth bar being difficult to set up. besides Backstab and Shadowstrike, do any other "requires stealth" abilities share Keybinds with other non "requires stealth" abilities?

[keen hare]

i usually just make sure my stealth and non stealth bars are identical

[raw rover]

so what do you put on that bar? i know you always use Shadowstrike instead of Backstab when available, but thats not the case for Cheap Shot and Kidney Shot

[keen hare]

i mean whatever you want tbh, the reason i do it the way i do is because i don't like having my buttons switch up conditionally

[raw rover]

ahh i see

[keen hare]

sometimes i lose track of weather my stealth window has worn off, and if im trying to spam shadowstrike while im unstealthed then i look stupid

[raw rover]

do you have a different keybind for Shadowstrike and Backstab?

[hazy breach]

Unfortunately you still need backstab bound in dance

[raw rover]

because I use the same keybind

[hazy breach]

"need" is an overstatement ig

[raw rover]

why so?

[hazy breach]

But its used once per dance

When playing optimally

[raw rover]

i'm here for this

so i need to use different Keybinds for them

[lilac stag]

We don’t have a crazy amount of binds so just duplicate your non-stealth bar and stealth bar layout. Be sure any macros you may use are also duplicated.

[keen igloo]

I do this as tank. But I don’t bring the pack to you, so you’ll kill that mob and be able to restealth. Who the fuck is pulling a pack and bringing it to you? If they pull, they should be able to handle until you get there.

[lilac stag]

The problem is when they do it and you’re still in range of triggering combat. Cinderbrew is misery.

And the rest of the dps ignores the last mob to run after the big fresh shit.

[jaunty heath]

Cinderbrew Measery indeed

[haughty rose]

how and when to use the new bug vanish+shuriken macro?

[void ocean]

well for starters when u have enough energy for SS 😄

[feral coyote]

Heyo

ive got a quick question

im starting to get into PVE and my question would be, is it smarter to get my second Heroic weapon or to get one of the bis trinkets ? im currently full Conqquest gear and dont have any PVE trinkets

only PVE item i have is the crafter Heroic weapon from the Undermine quest

and if i get trinkets which would be stronger eye or house of cards ?

[tepid trellis]

off hands dont really matter all that much

they are just stat sticks

[feral coyote]

so trinket it is

[tepid trellis]

house of cards by a mile if you dont have another 1min30 trinket

[void ocean]

probably by a mile even if u do have another 90sec trink 😄

[feral coyote]

i dont have any PVE trinknets

atm im using the Primar stat PVP trinket xD

[void ocean]

pvp trinket is a good trinket

but the on use one

i had it for the most of the season 😄

[tepid trellis]

Eye of kezan is also only good on fights there are longer than 6min