subtlety

[molten citrus]

no

i've been playing literally every melee

[round latch]

[leaden prairie]

????

There ain't no add-ons in pvp

What you yapping about

[molten citrus]

yea ok boss man

[leaden prairie]

[molten citrus]

whatever the fuck you say

[leaden prairie]

Gottem

[wide sonnet]

this bis for sub?

[keen dome]

They should make AllTheThings baseline in the game

[lucid jackal]

Ya

[wide sonnet]

mmm

[bleak night]

real

[lucid jackal]

Oab might be a bit better but

[round latch]

theyve tried to make hekili part of the game so that would be a nice addition compared to that

[wide sonnet]

I DIED TOO MUCH TO KS TONIGHT I CANT DO IT ANYMORE

[round latch]

[keen dome]

If we had AAT's baseline I could finally be the most powerful Rogue

[wide sonnet]

sub have no bleeds except rupture but cd tracking

sin have bleed upkeep

hmmm

[keen dome]

Sub is pretty chill to play once you get comfy with the basic cd rotation

[round latch]

jokes aside,u must have the most /played on a singular rogue character in this rock that orbits the sun

[keen dome]

Possibly. I know one other person who has higher /played than me.

[wide sonnet]

do you guys just send cd's until like the last pack before a boss so that u have cds for boss?

[round latch]

in one rogue?

who the F is he

[keen dome]

Nah in general

[round latch]

lol ye that maybe,talking for 1 character

[wide sonnet]

hmm

[keen dome]

I don't think there is anybody who has a rogue with a /played like me haha

[keen dome]

Depends on the dungeon and situation and key level for me, really.

Also pack size. If it's not a big pull or something you'd probably just wanna send a dance+symbols

[lucid jackal]

I don't think sub is gonna work out for u ryu

[leaden prairie]

That's mean

Wtf

[wide sonnet]

what is sub aoe? sec tec aimed at the pack?

[leaden prairie]

Get this mean guy out of here now!

[lucid jackal]

Well the spec is hard to initially grasp and also, it's worse than sin and otl

[keen dome]

SecTec in general 'cos it's our biggest ability and then we use Black Powder as our AoE finisher if it's 7+ targets. Otherwise Eviserate flurried via Nimble

[alpine wraith]

damn im sad this is my second account

used to have 1100 days in like wotlk before i got banned

[wide sonnet]

oh thats right sub has flurry now

[alpine wraith]

this one has like 600 days

[keen dome]

Damn, you could've come close with it Hacha

[round latch]

my alliance rogue has something 700+ 😛

[alpine wraith]

i just dont let the game on as often anymore

[round latch]

horde idk

[alpine wraith]

also you get dcd more now

[round latch]

yup

[round latch]

why were u banned btw

script?

[wide sonnet]

its kinda the same as any other cd spec generally speaking tho isnt it

[vale pine]

@lucid jackal how do you feel about subtlety rogue in m+ over the xpacs?

or m+ balance in general

you mentioned niches not mattering overall, mythic+ is maybe a content thats not true in

[round latch]

powers collide

[alpine wraith]

nah got hacked and they permaed the account

[keen dome]

Damn, rip 😦

[round latch]

[wide sonnet]

that makes no sense

[round latch]

the hell

[leaden prairie]

It was me

[vale pine]

it is an interessting question

[leaden prairie]

Dm if you want to get the account back

Selling it 3k

[wide sonnet]

Its called account recovery not perma ban a hacked account

[short radish]

this is why you can never trust the french

[vale pine]

because mythic+ was kind of more optinal in s1

[short radish]

[vale pine]

but in s2 seems to be a more vital/important part of the game again

esp. with now being the main farm content you can do

[lucid jackal]

I think for m+ it's mostly been a wash right

[round latch]

yeah ik,i find interest when guy yaps for stuff in general,curious to see what he thinks for sub in general since isnt that old a rogue.His mind is were it should be though

[lucid jackal]

Like it's probably leaned more outlaw, then sub, the sin

Sins only been playable in keys super recently tbqh

[vale pine]

it was pmuch outlaw before sin got the massive rework in 10.2

[fringe palm]

dont tell seliathan

[vale pine]

and its sin all over it ever since

[lucid jackal]

Well sub saw a lot of play in sl

[vale pine]

starting out slowly because people did sleep on sin

[lucid jackal]

At least, if rogue got played

Until s3?

Then it was outlaw

[vale pine]

s1 was outlaw

s2 was sub i think but outalw and sub close

[lucid jackal]

Yaya

[vale pine]

but let me quick check

before i make a wrong statement

[lucid jackal]

M+ balance has for sure been outlaw leaning

[keen dome]

I remember Sub being pretty okay in S1 but Outlaw just being plain better

In SL S1

[lucid jackal]

But sub hasn't been bad. I feel like it's been decently competitive enough of the time

[fringe palm]

legion sub and bfa outlaw? sl it was mostly outlaw iirc

[teal prawn]

Df s1 was sub

[lucid jackal]

Df s1 was outlaw, until high keys swapped to sub

[keen dome]

Def between Sub and Outlaw most seasons and then TWW has just been Assa primetime which is cool

[round latch]

after s3 sub was dominant in sl,outlaw was ok always,s1 was outlaw

[lucid jackal]

Cuz uncapped xd

[alpine wraith]

nah it was a diff time in 2008 didnt have proof of the account being mine and they changed things then i never got it back

[lucid jackal]

U had shit like the tree boss

[vale pine]

s1 was outlaw and a bit of sub

[teal prawn]

Tree boss was insane on sub

[fringe palm]

after s3 m+ had 3 dps specs lets be honest everything else was dogshit

[leaden prairie]

I mean s1 SL was clearly sub

[vale pine]

s2 was actually a lot closer

with sub ahead

[leaden prairie]

You couldn't enter a high key as outlaw you were trolling

[keen dome]

I wonder how much impact the dagger had on this

[lucid jackal]

Outlaw was and still is the goat of shit keys

[leaden prairie]

Ye

[lucid jackal]

Nothing can beat the goat

[leaden prairie]

https://tenor.com/view/the-goat-gif-4115569673926897153

[vale pine]

let me fact check

[leaden prairie]

You can

I played the season

I know

[vale pine]

20 and up

[leaden prairie]

[vale pine]

8.3% was outlaw

[leaden prairie]

Hm

I think this is fake

But ok

Well ye cause 20s were weeklies

Fact check again

Skill issue

[vale pine]

top 10 keys

hmm ye

lines up with what you say

[lucid jackal]

[vale pine]

i clearly see how outlaw was trolling in high keys

[wide sonnet]

they are all JPC

[leaden prairie]

I mean this isn't true tho lol

This isnt df

[wide sonnet]

JPC the legend

[leaden prairie]

We are talking about df no?

To me this meant df lol

[vale pine]

absolutely

next 10

[worn ivy]

ASSA AND OUTLAW #1 Fastest in world !!

https://raider.io/mythic-plus-runs/season-bfa-2/12872849-27-waycrest-manor

[leaden prairie]

Bro this isn't df

We didn't have

Plaguefall

[vale pine]

its SL

[leaden prairie]

In df

[vale pine]

not df

[leaden prairie]

Ye

[vale pine]

guy mentioned SL

[leaden prairie]

^

Maybe we got confused

[fringe palm]

fuu do you think jpc was rank1 because he crafted legendary pants?

[vale pine]

haha

[alpine wraith]

big pants

[vale pine]

jpc is just the goat

thats why

[teal prawn]

Jpc is just built diffy

[vale pine]

DF s1 needs to be sub

[alpine wraith]

good teams are great

[vale pine]

because it was rly good in aoe output

and well rounded

which changed in s3

s2 probably you did not see a lot of rogue

because rogue was in general not that well tuned

[leaden prairie]

S2 was also sub but yes

I mean rogue was trash all of SL as well imo

[vale pine]

s1 sub was good

[leaden prairie]

I still have no idea why people played rogue in sl

[vale pine]

rogue was good s2 sl

[leaden prairie]

I think In SL people were still under copium from bfa

[vale pine]

thats it

and it was the most well rounded balance wise

rogue has ever been

[bleak night]

[vale pine]

sl s2 was goated

[leaden prairie]

Also it was the only melee playable back then

I mean bro in SL

S2

People were playing sub for funnel

[alpine wraith]

people just enjoy rogue a lot

[leaden prairie]

With sub doing half the damage of any other spec on overall

[alpine wraith]

so they play it anyways

[leaden prairie]

And doing 0 funnel

[alpine wraith]

we always said that for m+

[vale pine]

haha

[leaden prairie]

I think rogue players back then we're just coping way too hard

About rogue

[alpine wraith]

ye it happens

[leaden prairie]

But also rogue was different in SL

St cc mattered

[alpine wraith]

it was also harder to do alts back then

[leaden prairie]

Now it doesn't

[alpine wraith]

so they just played their raid class

[leaden prairie]

Cause ccs stopped cast so

Now it doesn't

[vale pine]

i think one thing rogue did well

was stabalizing a key

[wide sonnet]

i was top dmg a lot as outlaw in SL

[vale pine]

using stuns or blind to fix other player slacking

[leaden prairie]

Ryuk you do +2s

I'm sorry but

[vale pine]

actually think rogue was hard carrying in sl

[alpine wraith]

did bte still stun in sl

[leaden prairie]

No

[wide sonnet]

it was mid keys at least

haha

[leaden prairie]

Ye back then stuns were op still

[lucid jackal]

Somebody get this meanie out of here

[alpine wraith]

yea think zac was talking like 26-27

[fringe palm]

i havnt pressed kidney in 2 expacs

[leaden prairie]

!ban @leaden prairie

[lucid jackal]

U should press it bro

[leaden prairie]

Frfr

[lucid jackal]

8 second stun lowkey op

[leaden prairie]

Press it in dance also

Full cp

[sly shore]

I'm over 3000 score now I'm kind of a big deal

[leaden prairie]

Mobs are Perma 90% dr

[vale pine]

[lucid jackal]

Not when u pug

[leaden prairie]

Me when I try to 8 second kidney and its a 0.5s kidney

I pug all my keys !

[fringe palm]

im kidding im sure i pressed it once or twice

[alpine wraith]

you have to be fast tho

[fringe palm]

atleast more than snd

[alpine wraith]

cheapshot into kidney

ez 2 mob big cc

[upbeat cradle]

Especially when you pug, imagine getting into keys

[wide sonnet]

this is like the first time ive seen sub active for more than a minute

[leaden prairie]

Big buff !

[alpine wraith]

i only do my key really but it has been good last week and have to see this week

[leaden prairie]

Sub viable now

[alpine wraith]

just put a 12

crest farm

get the most gaymers

[leaden prairie]

Considering swapping from outlaw to sub rn

[alpine wraith]

and just +2 it

instead of being in que for 20 mins

getting declined

[wide sonnet]

are u tired of the ks too zac?

[alpine wraith]

well we got the arcane situation

[wide sonnet]

im so tired

[leaden prairie]

Of course

[alpine wraith]

sub will be better

[wide sonnet]

I died in every key from ks tonight

[alpine wraith]

and if it had any strenghts?¿

[leaden prairie]

I int keys on the daily with killing sprre

[alpine wraith]

it would be higher now

[fringe palm]

remember it well. last line of notes until 11.2

[wide sonnet]

im so tilted right now from ks

[alpine wraith]

what i find fun of ks

is you used to be immune they took that one out

used to be immune to cc took that one out

[hidden jasper]

How big of a buff will this be for keys?

[alpine wraith]

used to do dmg took that one out

[lucid jackal]

When I join the channel I get the dogs barkin

[alpine wraith]

then has this weird mechanic now

but does no dmg now

but you also have to use it for trickster things

[wide sonnet]

thats why its real name is trolololspree

[neon frigate]

What do you guys think after 5% dmg increase? Are we going to push M+ higher?

[leaden prairie]

Ks does damage

Think it's our highest dpet spell

[wide sonnet]

on single target no

[alpine wraith]

yea but does it do 25% dmg like in ToT or WoD?

[leaden prairie]

Ok buddy

It does the same damage in AOE than st

[wide sonnet]

only when it flurries

[leaden prairie]

Ryuk

[wide sonnet]

[leaden prairie]

You are cooked

[alpine wraith]

it does like 3% or so i think or more?

[leaden prairie]

No but its like

[alpine wraith]

havent looked at outlaw

[leaden prairie]

8% rn I think

Wait let me check

[wide sonnet]

KS flurries for 20k dmg sometimes, big big numbers =x

[alpine wraith]

oh well it is not horrible but also with such low cd idk

since WoD has it ever done dmg?

i remember playing combat in xul horac and blasting

and killing the bird boss in the air with it

then dying a glorious death once

[leaden prairie]

Look

And this even have a bit of bf

[alpine wraith]

ENHANCE

[leaden prairie]

So ks does close to 12% of our damage sth like that

[alpine wraith]

yea 12% is quite a bit

not old times big booms

but decent

also enables unseens

and coup

[leaden prairie]

It's pretty big especially if you consider coup value etc

And all the trickster bullshit

[wide sonnet]

but its only good if it doesnt kill you

[alpine wraith]

true

[leaden prairie]

I mean tbf it also last so long

I guess it make sense it does damage

[wide sonnet]

have u seen some of the non crit damages tho

hits less than 100k

its so depressing

and it was half my energy

for this bullshit

[leaden prairie]

Bro ks does 10 milliard hits during the channel

Why do we care about individual hits

[wide sonnet]

only when it works

[leaden prairie]

[wide sonnet]

sometimes I feel like if mobs moving during pulls it hits less times

mobs standing still hits more times

more bugs to the list or im cooked

but I wanna learn sub or sin soon

until ks removed

[haughty mural]

Pirates in this Channel debating about ks

[alpine wraith]

KS was funny because it also used to amp all other dmg by 100%

as a hidden modifier

[haughty mural]

[alpine wraith]

so gauche was assraping

in pvp

and it wook blizz so long to realise

[wide sonnet]

how many ruptures do u want to upkeep on sub?

[wet lava]

Does secret tech not hit kyrios for full dam when hes in middle of sky?

[honest saddle]

correct

or in the middle at all

the clones dont hit

[wet lava]

wtf

[keen dome]

Clones don't have arms long enough

[wet lava]

fix plz

[chrome palm]

Short stubby arms

[alpine wraith]

they just fall down the hole

unluck

[chrome palm]

Yeah they’re on it right now they’re gonna fix it

[hollow spear]

Is the aura buff so mid that we immediately go back to discussing other rogue specs or are the other 5 sub players still in bed?

[wet lava]

wat if u step 2 boss in the sky, send tech . step back to ally. trying rn in my 18

[chrome palm]

Good idea to try in the 18

You get stunned if you go to the boss in the middle

[fringe palm]

might aswell, playing sub in an 18 is already trolling

[wide sonnet]

found it

[honest saddle]

5% is pretty mid. It makes us like bottom 30-40% of specs instead of worst. It needed to be 7.5-8% for sub to not still be bad

[wide sonnet]

rupture all targets?

i guess its not bad if 2 targets per cast

[chrome palm]

You just spread it when you don’t have dance

Or when tank gathers

[wide sonnet]

i see

yea

and when cd's used just upkeep them and evis

[wet lava]

is any1 able 2 recreate this TFD bug 100% on packs in dungeons

[honest saddle]

in lower keys, like 10-12, its not worth to rupture on many packs, because the little adds can die so fast

sometimes its best to send cds

then rupture after

[wide sonnet]

hmm

[honest saddle]

you just have to know the key

[chrome palm]

Best to

[wide sonnet]

i see

[vale pine]

yes, but outside of dance

[haughty mural]

Wdym 4.6% are good - we are so barrack

[wide sonnet]

i see

[tulip gorge]

I doubt sub will be top tier but at least it's no longer bottom of the barrel

[honest saddle]

were still bottom half

[tulip gorge]

yeah

I will probably play sub on gallywix

[chrome palm]

When good players swap to it it will gain more than 5%

[honest saddle]

I went assassination for mugzee and gally

hated it

so fucking boring

[ashen dock]

i played sin for a key (even changed all my crafted stuff) what a waste of time/gold

[tulip gorge]

boring how

just assa boomer gameplay boring?

[honest saddle]

I spent a ton of time staring at energy bar so I didnt use thistle tea in down times

yeah a lot of waiting

[tulip gorge]

ah yes that's classic assa

[honest saddle]

its worse now

because thistle is automatic at 30 energy or something

[tulip gorge]

at least on bandit you can snipe the adds for energy

[honest saddle]

so you just have to hover at like 50-100 energy

[dusk stone]

assa is like sub, except you to the 10 minute mark and ask where the next layer of stuff is and find out there isnt any

[chrome palm]

Proccing tea from using defensives is really cool

[hollow spear]

I think thistle teaing automatically is like a 0.1% dps loss

[tulip gorge]

afaik tea doesn't even matter that much

[honest saddle]

I have a weak aura that screams your at <90 energy

DONT DO ANYTHING

[hollow spear]

Sounds annoying for such a minor gain haha

[haughty rose]

that sounds awful

[honest saddle]

yeah its super min max

and not worth

but the spec is so dog shit easy

that what else am I gonna do

[dusk stone]

am i wrong for thinking sub is like 20% behind at least the more competitive specs in overall? in keys

[haughty rose]

at least let it say tralaleotralala or some brainrot shit so you can fully embrace the brainrot

[magic ruin]

But having tea for CD's is like a safeguard that you have saved enough energy for spamming abilities during CD's, no? So its more than a 0.1% gain if you think about it?

[chrome palm]

Watch your envenom pandemic

[haughty mural]

Is it worse than teaing for energy outside of dances because gloomblades truck ?

[hollow spear]

It would be useful on sub. Calculates all the conditions and cooldowns and then yells at you: DONT SEND DANCE!

[haughty mural]

Asking for a friend in the past

[magic ruin]

if you have to press feint or something during CDs and then u dont have enough energy to spam during deathmark etc without tea

[hollow spear]

Even that doesn't matter if I understand the recent pins correctly

[honest saddle]

@dusk stone not 20% behind. Maybe was like 8-10% behind the best specs and now its like 3-5% behind the best specs

[hollow spear]

Sin: nothing matters

[dusk stone]

sorry

i meant in keys

its late :X

[haughty mural]

Doesn’t matter

Dave is back

Don’t let them tell you otherwise

(Disable details maybe)

[alpine wraith]

big finishers inc

just highroll

[haughty mural]

Just crit

[hollow spear]

Didn't fuu calculate 3.9%? Where did you get the 4.6% from, oz?

[keen dome]

Hell yeah Dave is 4.6% back

[haughty mural]

Eleems pin

[tulip gorge]

the pin says 4.6%

[alpine wraith]

it can be a bit less depending

[hollow spear]

Nvm Just saw

[fallow nimbus]

So, it should have been a 10%

[alpine wraith]

the more embellish etc things that you have that give stats

instead of trinkets etc doing dmg

[hollow spear]

Fuu simmed 3.9%, maybe that was undercooked

[alpine wraith]

the more the buff affects us

[hollow spear]

Ah yeah true

[honest saddle]

it should have been 7.5-8% but they dont do that

they do 5 and 10%

and 10 would be a bit much

[dusk stone]

nah they do 3's as well

[haughty mural]

Frost mage got the 3

Iirc

[hollow spear]

I think 5 is alright

[dusk stone]

ig just ask for 5% and then 3% buff right underneathe it

[hollow spear]

It's just that oab and mug are execute fights

[haughty mural]

Get the arcane treatment and get 2 buffs in a row

[dusk stone]

fuu is right tho

[tulip gorge]

you'll have to wait 3 weeks unfortunately

[dusk stone]

this is probably just to keep remaining sub mains happy

[cursive vapor]

WE ARE SO BACK!

[dusk stone]

but like

we should spend time actually trying to figure out what the most simple things they can do to kinda balance sub in keys and raid

[hollow spear]

Maybe I'll swap back to sub for gally when we're done with mug

[alpine wraith]

sub is quite decent for gally

[worn ivy]

All damage increased by 10%.
Hero Talents — Trickster:
Nimble Flurry Icon Nimble Flurry now causes 80% of listed ability damage to strike nearby enemies (was 50%).

Thats what i need atleast

[wide sonnet]

If i recrafted to vers/mast, its still showing 1mil behind outlaw =/

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/uPJaskr32kymp8z4GZSHYZ

[haughty rose]

5% buff to all abilities for a spec that hasn't seen any change recently and basically no changes to the weirdest spec in the game (aug) screams like some major spec reworks in the near future.

aug will become a tank most likely but i wonder what and if they do to sub

[dusk stone]

sub just needs a redesign

[alpine wraith]

take your meds my man

[tulip gorge]

unfortunately we have to wait until 11.2 to see if that's true

[dusk stone]

too many talents in the tree are garbage

[ashen dock]

support spec. we will /cheer the party on from the shadows

[alpine wraith]

no way they are doing any big changes soon

[tulip gorge]

they didn't do any changes for 11.1.7

[alpine wraith]

maybe in midnight

[haughty rose]

nah not soon and maybe not even in TWW

[honest saddle]

the spec is really fun to play, it has a good gameplay loop

[tulip gorge]

so we have to wait until August

[honest saddle]

it just needs talent refinement

bring back secret tech and dance window burst

[haughty rose]

but i'd bet good money that the spec will see a rework

let's just hope we don't lose out identity

[tulip gorge]

I don't think it would be a major rework

[honest saddle]

more than anything I wish they wouldnt have nerfed the 4 set

[tulip gorge]

if anything rogue hero talents need a rework badly

[dusk stone]

so didnt sub get an 8% nerf alongside the tier set nerfs pre patch?

[honest saddle]

they also buffed it to compensate @zorn. it ended up being about the same before the 4pc nerf

[wide sonnet]

what are u guys simming at 679 ilvl?

[full lagoon]

Guys how big is the sub buff

[haughty rose]

idk they can't fix the bugs so maybe they eliminate the source of the bugs entirely

[full lagoon]

[haughty mural]

We don’t need a full rework

Stop it

[dusk stone]

the sub tree does lol

[haughty mural]

[dusk stone]

there's so much garbage in it

[short radish]

theres garbage in every spec tree

[worn ivy]

Real sub tree

[wide sonnet]

What are u guys sim number around 678 ilvl?

[alpine wraith]

last sim i did was 2.5

[dusk stone]

yeah tbh how do we look in mop classic

are we tuned better

[honest saddle]

we just need hero talent and tree work.

ITS GOTTA GO

[alpine wraith]

sub is very bad until last raid of mop

[wide sonnet]

what about m+?

[honest saddle]

combat is giga in panda from what I remember

[alpine wraith]

m+ has lots of variables

[haughty mural]

Bandits guile

[alpine wraith]

dont really sim for it but you can use dslice for gearing

[wide sonnet]

my sim did 3.2mil for m+

and 4mil for outlaw

[alpine wraith]

the throne set tier was the 0.5 gcd one

[honest saddle]

Join me in DEEP insight, brother.

[dusk stone]

yeah why is goremaws so bad

[alpine wraith]

the most divisive tier in existence

good players

were doing 3x the dmg of bad players

[lilac stag]

Red buff

[honest saddle]

RED BUFF. 5 other rogues in raid, send tricks of trade on me now. R1 GG

[lilac stag]

Bandits was fun

[dusk stone]

was goremaws like extremely nerfed or something? its hard to see how that was ever a good talent

[honest saddle]

its a pvp talent mainly

[alpine wraith]

goremaw got 1/3 the dmg it did in legion

[alpine wraith]

used to do like 900% ap

now does 300

[dusk stone]

like its so weird to give us a cooldown outside of our cooldowns that doesnt seem like it would matter

[alpine wraith]

it also has less cd but still

[dusk stone]

goremaws gives AP?

[honest saddle]

the energy component makes it unplayable

[dusk stone]

oh

[alpine wraith]

no it is the multiplier on attack power

[honest saddle]

it just doesnt fit with subs current design of not needing energy regen

it used to make sense

it doesnt now

[chrome palm]

Sub tree would instantly be so much better if they swapped dark brew and goremaws position

[honest saddle]

I mean finality is ok

[honest saddle]

what would you do if you didnt have to go into finality @chrome palm

[vagrant fulcrum]

or they tune it to be real

[alpine wraith]

finality is kinda weak sadly

[vagrant fulcrum]

just being competitive with other options isn't enough imo

[haughty mural]

@worn ivy are you going to post every ability from the last 20 years now?

[vagrant fulcrum]

it needs to feel good to press and have fun gameplay implications

[alpine wraith]

turns out having 15% inc dmg on a finisher is not that good if you already have 200%+

[honest saddle]

it would have to be completely a different spell for it to make sense. We don't need energy, so the fat that some of its power is baked into energy efficiency makes it useless in current form

[alpine wraith]

tbh prep would go hard

i would vibe with it

[vagrant fulcrum]

you guys familiar with reaper's mark for frost / blood? that's how I imagined goremaw's should have panned out in its modern iteration

[honest saddle]

PREP 👀

[alpine wraith]

like old dk army

[chrome palm]

I mean 2/2 finality and dark brew is very costly and makes dark brew inaccessible. At least then you’d have the option to run it. I’ve seen PvPs run both but they take finality anyways so it wouldn’t mess them up

[honest saddle]

do we get more talent points next expansion. Surely we do?

[worn ivy]

Subtlety 📈 Augmentation 📉

[honest saddle]

or they make the hero trees bigger?

[alpine wraith]

we dont know

[chrome palm]

We can only hope they don’t

[alpine wraith]

but if they only make more points for hero talents

it will be quite blerght

[honest saddle]

I dont want more talents, thats for sure. Enough as it is.

[chrome palm]

D4 paragon board or something

[dusk stone]

how competitive is sub in keys with this 5% like in top half of classes or?

[chrome palm]

Something stupid

[honest saddle]

POE 2 board

keep it really simple for the average player

[chrome palm]

🙈

[alpine wraith]

not much will change

[dusk stone]

i get that

[alpine wraith]

but upper mid sounds fine yes

[dusk stone]

but i can never get a straight answer on how good or bad we are tbh

[alpine wraith]

just the good specs are ahead and also give buffs

it is relative

if you make a phys comp sub does decent

[honest saddle]

anytime you have a rogue in a key on any spec

just remember

it could have been a dh

[dusk stone]

like i look at a key like brew and i have a hard time saying we can get above 4.5 overall

[alpine wraith]

but if you try to shoehorn it into a caster comp

[dusk stone]

and i see outlaw doing 6mil

[alpine wraith]

you will do 15% less dmg than them

what in brew you can do more than 6

easy

[dusk stone]

preaching to the choir brother

[alpine wraith]

even me im bad as f

[dusk stone]

only phys comp for sub

[alpine wraith]

and i did like 5.9

[chrome palm]

The tech to get key parses on sub

[dusk stone]

but like am i wrong that i cant see more than 4.5 there?

[alpine wraith]

or 6.1 in a 12 people surely do more in higher keys

[worn ivy]

On a +10 ?

[tulip gorge]

Outlaw bladeflurry bug fix was huge

[chrome palm]

Is to zone out after the key starts and swap to sin

[dusk stone]

on like a 12 or 13 or higher

the outlaw key i am talking about was on an 18

[chrome palm]

It logs it as sub

[alpine wraith]

usually in higher keys people do more dps not less than me

so i expect them to do better

[dusk stone]

like if we are at 4.5 to outlaws 6

5% means nothing

[alpine wraith]

are the pulls so long

[dusk stone]

if my context is wrong thats different

[alpine wraith]

that they lose 1.5 mil somewhere?

or do they play assa first pull anyway

[dusk stone]

4.5 is just my feelcraft

[alpine wraith]

idk i have never cared or watched people do high keys

[dusk stone]

lashga would knows he's done 18's as sub

[alpine wraith]

i just know what i do and im not a stellar player

they cant be worse lets say pulls take longer

5.7m as sub is still decent

[dusk stone]

you do keys as sub?

[alpine wraith]

yea always

[dusk stone]

what level

[alpine wraith]

just 12s

for weekly

[dusk stone]

you've seen 5.7 as sub in keys?

[alpine wraith]

yea

[haughty mural]

Are you guys reading each other’s messages?

Funny convo

[dusk stone]

just giga confused

[alpine wraith]

im also wondering

[chrome palm]

You’re wondering?

[pastel rampart]

ok but do u do keys on rogue hacha?

as sub???

[alpine wraith]

idk do i?

[pastel rampart]

?!?!?!?!

[alpine wraith]

now idk anymore

[honest saddle]

are you wondering, @alpine wraith . I am also wondering if you are wondering.

[chrome palm]

Hacha youve specced subtlety rogue?

[pastel rampart]

its not sectech its synch strike

we are bladedancers

its a good life

[honest saddle]

@chrome palm have you asked Hacha, if he has played sub lately?

because I am wondering

[worn ivy]

I never did over 5mil any key this season.

[dusk stone]

before turbo boost though

[worn ivy]

Even +10

[alpine wraith]

damn then yea higher keys do take longer

[dusk stone]

what kinda high end parses are you seeing as sub in cinderbrew?

[chrome palm]

They should make somewhere to post logs 🙈

[alpine wraith]

i mean doing 14 mins 12s is a diff world than higher keys

i wonder if anyone logs any of the keys i do because i dont

[worn ivy]

4.3

Yea thats realistic

[honest saddle]

thats top 10 runs

[vagrant fulcrum]

tbh I think you could if you talented / played for aoe pad

[honest saddle]

on 16 and 18 I think

[wide sonnet]

sin rotation not bad

ummm

[vagrant fulcrum]

it would make the keys harder though

[alpine wraith]

yea those are bigger keys

most pulls i do last like 10 secs

but that is also very rare

it is not like all groups are the same

[worn ivy]

I DIDNT PLAYED keys after turbo boost but i dont think that changes much

[alpine wraith]

like i've done way less

[worn ivy]

Since we dont scale good with ilevel

[alpine wraith]

your comps are also quite sad for sub

ngl

but also we live in diff worlds

i just want out of keys every time i do them

[worn ivy]

The best comp ive c

[alpine wraith]

i dont really care about best comp i just invite things that buff me

totally classist

[honest saddle]

makes we wonder if warrior, sub, monk, shaman, druid tank if sub would be closer to 5 mill

[worn ivy]

I played is the guardian tank mw enha war

[honest saddle]

probably could do over 5 mill with perfect comp

[alpine wraith]

i mean bosses last 1 min

quite good for sub

[dusk stone]

3.65 is lashgas highest on brew as a 99

[alpine wraith]

but yours would be quite longer

[dusk stone]

so that means we are 40%? or so behind outlaw on that key

[worn ivy]

I could do more

[alpine wraith]

those are way higher keys

[alpine wraith]

dps in keys is a bit weird the lvl i do mobs have way less health

[honest saddle]

19

[dusk stone]

nah the outlaw key was an 18 as well

[worn ivy]

Most of times im testing new shit for cinder

[alpine wraith]

yea because outlaw does not care about cds

[honest saddle]

18

[wet lava]

nooby question but 2 scared 2 try, in floodgate - can u just run into spark and cloak to ignore it

[alpine wraith]

as sub if you send a flag into a pack and it dies fast

you lose a lot of dps

[dusk stone]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxfHIeYxGIA

[wide sonnet]

why vanish for sub?

[alpine wraith]

it neds to go into the water

[alpine wraith]

premed

[wet lava]

ty ty

[wide sonnet]

that explains the low cp vanish i see

[dusk stone]

yeah ofc cinderbrew is aids with sub in general

but that is approaching a 50% diffential

[wet lava]

rn prob better to save vanish for the tfd thing though right, so u can have big dance w flag blades etc

[alpine wraith]

yes

[dusk stone]

thats essentially an entire patch worth of dps

[alpine wraith]

if tank is chainpulling you want that tfd juice

[dusk stone]

we have a 99 rook at 3.9 mil

[worn ivy]

The problem is in cinder when the bombs spawn u commiting extra dances you shouldnt and delaying main cds

[wet lava]

i stg this tfd thin works half the time tho, not using it on boses either just packs

[wide sonnet]

tfd?

[worn ivy]

And if u dont press that dance u wipe

[wet lava]

agreed feels the same w baner in top etc

[alpine wraith]

top you need to do things a bit diff yea

[worn ivy]

Top is ez

U have dance for every banner

But

[alpine wraith]

yea since xav does not break our neck anymore

[worn ivy]

U never focus banners anyway

U ignore banner over 19+ keys

I can survive frontal 2x and 1 vanish

To go behind boss

You need maceo

Macro for stepping healer

[fierce cedar]

5% buff do anything? lol

[alpine wraith]

yea it is fine

[haughty mural]

Ye it’s good

[wet lava]

does the tfd bug not work on any mobs w truesight

[haughty mural]

We barrack

[alpine wraith]

havent done any keys yet with tfd bug try

so i cant say

[fierce cedar]

Ive only really tried sub in lower keys and ive been in pain lol

[worn ivy]

Can u trigger tfd bug with meld ?

[dusk stone]

so if we're using lashgas parses we have a 3.9 mil sub rookery and 4.7 sin rookery from shindig

[haughty mural]

Don’t think so

Some nelfer please confirm

[dusk stone]

so like 20% differential

[haughty mural]

What’s you point ?

[bleak night]

[alpine wraith]

welcome to m+

[dusk stone]

for flood is 5.6 and 4.5

[alpine wraith]

where no one cares

[worn ivy]

the point is eta gg

Check ruski sub rogue logs

U wont find something better

😂😂

[dusk stone]

for dfc its somehow worse

[fierce cedar]

seems to me that the 5% buff in st will move us up a whopping 0 spots lol

[dusk stone]

3.6 and 4.6

[alpine wraith]

nah we will get more spots in raid when some good people play sub

again

but nothing crazy

[short radish]

@tribal blade are you returning to sub?

[dusk stone]

thats like 25%

[alpine wraith]

just need more highrollers

[fierce cedar]

just talking sims lol

[alpine wraith]

look at the sim and see the highest number

from variance

the more logs we have the more chances someone gets one of those

[dusk stone]

top is 3.3 and 4.6

[wet lava]

echoing void in 15 flood

[dusk stone]

top is apparently not a sub key

[fierce cedar]

judt checking the average of simcraft

[worn ivy]

Neither is sub key

Only sun fight i could say rookery last boss

[dusk stone]

so its somewhere between 25 and 50% L as sub in keys

just between rogue specs

[alpine wraith]

like my sim rn is 2.6 mil right

[worn ivy]

But its tue more fun

[alpine wraith]

but real number is if im unluck 2mil

[worn ivy]

And thats what matters

[alpine wraith]

if im lucky 3.1

so we need lots of people so that someone can get that 3.1

and not look like shite in logs

so with buffs more people will play

and maybe someone gets that new 3.5mil

but if we have 300 logs in sprocket

the chances someone hits is

LOW

[dusk stone]

so yeah sub needs somewhere between 5 and 10x this 5% buff in its overall to be competitive with sin in keys from these logs

[alpine wraith]

because sim did 100000 iterations and almost none of those hit the max

same with keys

someone someday may do a good comp for sub and get better numbers

but if we have 2 players doing keys

the chances are very low

vs 2000 of assa

[void ocean]

so heres one super nooby question, do we import Luxtros plater profiles to WA or to Plater? 😄

[dusk stone]

well no i dont think if we have people doing 18's and getting half the damage

[alpine wraith]

keys are always krangled because it is a double minigame you have to like doing dungeons and have to find people that like it then do the higher keys

[dusk stone]

that some magical log with fix that

[heady dragon]

plater ofc

[dusk stone]

thats the difference between a 9's player worth of damage

[heady dragon]

plater has a Import section, thats where you ctrl V the profile in

[alpine wraith]

i mean variance itself on the spec is already almost 50%

[dusk stone]

these are on 100's

[alpine wraith]

pull rng and other things are another and class comp more

[clever delta]

Tryan you are in wrong channel Buddy

[alpine wraith]

you can also see uhdk doing 4 mil overall

instead of 6.5

[heady dragon]

following cute guys (you)

[clever delta]

[dusk stone]

how many keys have you ran with an actual phyiscal comp, meaning shaman, warrior, monk + w/e else

[fierce cedar]

lol

[alpine wraith]

we just need around 1000 more lashgas

@worn ivy multiply yourself man we need more cool people doing keys

[fierce cedar]

im forced to play rogue in my guild atm

[heady dragon]

im sorry

[dusk stone]

the funny thing is that lashgas 100 on flood is what i predicted subs max to be lol

[alpine wraith]

why rogue is the most useless raidbuff

[fierce cedar]

no one else can play it and no one else want to play it

[lilac stag]

Find a new guild

[void ocean]

aye tnx, tried first to import it to wa but it didnt fit

[fierce cedar]

[alpine wraith]

im actually seeing more guilds just not having a rogue

or recruiting one

when i was looking for guild

[heady dragon]

hunters mark exists ok

[fierce cedar]

makes sense

[heady dragon]

[alpine wraith]

that one at least gives dmg

[fierce cedar]

rogue is in a bad spot

[alpine wraith]

and mm/bm is insta almost 1m more dps than sub kekw

[dusk stone]

yeah i think i am fully kept on my guilds team solely as being a rogue

[alpine wraith]

we have 2 rogues

so im benched

[dusk stone]

i never attend unless invited, i never ask and still have my spot somehow

[alpine wraith]

unluck

[tulip gorge]

no it isn't lol

[lilac stag]

Ummm askusalky, we can’t see the boss without it.

[heady dragon]

thats kinda the point of raidbuffs

even if a class is not that great, still a secured spot cus of the buff it gives

[fierce cedar]

cap

[clever delta]

Hachi why the fucking key grinder sim so high for sub

[tulip gorge]

assa and outlaw are doing well

[clever delta]

Is it sim bait

[dusk stone]

how much of a dps increase was this turbo boost?

5%?

[fierce cedar]

im m+ sure

in raid nah

[tulip gorge]

even in raid they are doing well

what are you talking about

[heady dragon]

assa does insane execute dmg on OAB/mugzee/gally, and that was REALLY valuable the last 2 months

[lilac stag]

Execute stonks 📉

[haughty mural]

And now sub is back to take assas throne

[alpine wraith]

dmg trinks got buffed

[tulip gorge]

doubt

[alpine wraith]

so all dmg trinkets are kinda fine

[haughty mural]

[alpine wraith]

some people have a ratfang they cant get rid of too

ahaha

[heady dragon]

now its going down cus stuff dies faster (and mugzee 3min strat becomes more common), but calling rogue bad this tier is a bit insane

[alpine wraith]

rogue was not bad but other classes were better

the adage

so if you can you play those

but it was not horrible

[void ocean]

do u guys use Luxtros nameplates, are there any better? some guide wouldnt be the worst, i suppose

[alpine wraith]

only people get demoralized

[tulip gorge]

it's not S tier like warlock is in some fights but it's quite good

[alpine wraith]

when they parse 9x

and are last in dps

vs some green and blues

[haughty mural]

Maybe I dinar me some vexxie trinket hehe

[lilac stag]

Rogue was mid. Sub was bad after first set of tuning buffs.

[clever delta]

assa is kinda cooked the way you not getting double cds in excecute on mugze and galliwix

[alpine wraith]

tbh the diff between keys and thug zee

is not that big

[clever delta]

you are no longer gapping others in boss dmg

[alpine wraith]

yea assa with fast strat on mug zee is not as good

but still fine

[clever delta]

yeah its like 0,2% for me thats why im thinking playing key must be bait 😄

[alpine wraith]

nah it does fine

[lilac stag]

just going to prog mugz as sub on Tuesday

[haughty mural]

Do it

[alpine wraith]

i still havent killed mug zee

thankfully it drops jacl

so i dont even care

[lilac stag]

We got OAB down last night. Got the heavy vers / master ring

[alpine wraith]

it dropped for us too

[tulip gorge]

I recrafted all my sub gear to outlaw stuff

[alpine wraith]

and it was a downgrade vs circe+jastor

for me XD

[tulip gorge]

can't even try sub next week properly

[alpine wraith]

only 5k dps loss

but still

so silly

[dusk stone]

rerolling outlaw is apparently like 50% dps increase so more power to you

[haughty mural]

Recraft it back

[clever delta]

assa logs completed just in time to come back to sub

[tulip gorge]

nah I play that in m+

[haughty mural]

Sub needs more parses and info

[lilac stag]

I wish I could stomach KS

Not gonna happen

[dusk stone]

i think the only logs sub needs is a competent pilot and a physical comp

[tulip gorge]

you need to build tolerance

[alpine wraith]

lots more logs too

[dusk stone]

but there's still gonna be a 20% gap between it and assa minimum

[alpine wraith]

it is always the same

[tulip gorge]

nowadays I don't even flinch when using KS

[alpine wraith]

variance is already like almost 40%

so if you do 100000 more keys as sub

you will hit some nice numbers someday

problem is

[honest jewel]

Any idea of how the 5% will play out in M+?

[dusk stone]

i just dont think thats true though if we have people who are playing it at a really high level

[alpine wraith]

we have like 10 players that do 15+

yea but you know how many is 100000

[dusk stone]

only 45% gapped by assa now

[tulip gorge]

you will do 5% more damage

[clever delta]

the stats distrubution as SUB is kinda funny now too, it want me lot of crit and not so much mastery vs vers

[pastel rampart]

yo wth thats me

[alpine wraith]

not me for sure

i already cba doing keys now i think after this week

[clever delta]

robot even want some haste as sub 😄

[dusk stone]

lashga is like our biggest point of reference for sub main keys, he has a 4.5 floodgate pre turbo, maybe pre full bis

i cant see us hitting 5 pre turbo

[tribal blade]

definitely not enough

[lilac stag]

assa and outlaw just way better in every sense but pure ST in keys

[tribal blade]

i did 5mil+ overall in flood pre turbo boost as sin

[honest jewel]

Yah sub is alot of fun just not good enough. Can just play bleed and do 5M while watching netflix

[dusk stone]

by 50%

[lilac stag]

Wut

[dusk stone]

there's an outlaw key of brew where he did 6mil overall

subs lucky to break 4 there on the very high end

[lilac stag]

and?

[dusk stone]

that's the 50% thing

thats wild

[lilac stag]

not really

they don’t balance shit around m+ or high keys

[heady dragon]

since when is 6 50% more then 4

math doesnt math

[dusk stone]

50% of 4 mil is 2 mil

[cloud rover]

Big Brain

[heady dragon]

and ye, what scath said

high m+ balance is a meme anyway

[cloud rover]

L tryan

Get Calculated

Bozo

[heady dragon]

like, its endless scaling, what do you kinda expect

[tribal blade]

i'm not sure how they tune sub to be good in M+ where it doesn't become incredibly broken in raid

[dusk stone]

that is just a figure and a half

[bleak night]

[heady dragon]

L my balls :3

[alpine wraith]

the assa and feral way

[tribal blade]

besides buffing BP and that causes a lot of issues

[dusk stone]

yeah that just cant be done, no

[alpine wraith]

make rupture easy to get everywhere

imagine if assa didnt have carnage

[dusk stone]

thats an overall redesign

[tribal blade]

yeah that's my next point, sub needs an overhaul in how it plays in aoe

[alpine wraith]

if there was a talent like sec tech +20 secs cd

[tribal blade]

the best way would be faster rupture spreading i agree

[alpine wraith]

but puts rupture on all targets for x secs

or something

[cloud rover]

You never come into my bed, when im asking so i cant

[alpine wraith]

or make replicating have 2 phases

[heady dragon]

would just turn more into "ENVENOM THE SPEC" again tbh

[alpine wraith]

like the one we have now

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/palpatine-emperor-look-stare-gif-15923185

Have you heard the story of Darth Shuriken Combo the wise?

[alpine wraith]

but also when you do finishers it

you know

REPLICATES

like in bfa

even if they completely got coked out and decided to nerf it by 80%

[tribal blade]

gimme combo 🙂

[alpine wraith]

from 10% per cp to 2

because fuck you

[tribal blade]

yeah that would be cool

[alpine wraith]

sub in bfa

[tribal blade]

like existing ruptures have a chance to spread on finishers

[alpine wraith]

tbh assa has a big problem with spatter tbh

cant get dots to do dmg

[heady dragon]

its not a story blizzard devs would tell you

Shuriken Combo was so strong and powerfull, you could bring a fresh max level sub rogue into Mythic Zul and be top dps

in the end, Sub was killed for that hubris of power and left dead for the rest of the expansion

ironic, isnt it? it had all that power but could not save itself

[alpine wraith]

because otherwise if they are spread they can spam envenom

you know a funny thing about zul

[tulip gorge]

pretty sure they added spatter so dots don't do damage

[alpine wraith]

sub was not even top dps

XD

but the diff is they didnt kill the fodder

you know a very easy solution instead of murdering sub?

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/everything-is-proceeding-as-i-have-foreseen-palpatine-sheev-palpatine-everything-going-according-to-plan-everything-going-ok-gif-2215291108627871761

[alpine wraith]

making the adds explode way earlier or like in the dazar alor fight

[cloud rover]

You could also bring any frostdk on ovinax and it was top dps

They didnt get gutted

[heady dragon]

well yeha you didnt hit adds, you just weebstorm->eviscerate for 5min and did like double the boss dmg then everyone else

[alpine wraith]

nah frost mage did more and aff lock but they killed fodder

[lilac stag]

They also didn’t trivialize the fight

[heady dragon]

you also had spriests and afflocks in the tier after zul doing the same shit but didnt get gutted

[alpine wraith]

they just designed boss wrong as f

it is weird because in legion we also had the ghost boss

where you did the same but mobs needed to die

so it didnt get out of control

[lilac stag]

The AH blues on 4 rogues doing more dmg than mythic geared dps killed combo

[alpine wraith]

like in zul

and in legion combo was even better

10% per cp instead of 5 in bfa

[dusk stone]

has there been a season of m+ where sub isn't like 50% behind the top parses?

[alpine wraith]

legion some parts of sl and df

sub has been fine sometimes

[lilac stag]

m+ parses….

[lilac stag]

BP spam

[alpine wraith]

in legion you had trinket ehehe

[vale pine]

think you ask the wrong question

[alpine wraith]

and 12 gearsets

[clever delta]

im kinda rusty are we doing backstab tech still

[alpine wraith]

what is worse that or bp?

[vale pine]

you would need to ask how many seasons sub had a lot of players in m+

[alpine wraith]

yea

[clever delta]

and what about second cds

[tribal blade]

sub was very good during S1+2 of DF

[clever delta]

are we flag into sectech?

[dreamy badger]

Rip old sub

[vale pine]

DF s1 was sub season

because it was allowed to do aoe

[tribal blade]

sub didn't fit into god comp during S2, but i would consistently beat mage/spriests in keys

[vale pine]

and had a very good hybrid talent build

[heady dragon]

well yeha, kinda?

spatter is a result of modern WoW Design and how bad Dots fit in there

like, the game is so heavy based around burst and instant dmg, that "i apply dots and they do their dmg in 20seconds" is just not a realistic gameplay anymore, it always ends up either Broken as hell or ussules weak

so they changed all "Dot specs" into "dots just exist to feed a burst dmg ability"

affliction applies dots and they do no real dmg and its all malefic in the end

feral is a bite simulator

spriest just applies dots for insanity and then does dmg by spending insa ity

assa applies dots for energy and the actual dmg is envenom

just kinda how modern wow sadly works

[clever delta]

fuu im going to wowhead the sub guide better be updated 😛

[vale pine]

it is ^^

[lilac stag]

When was Wits outlaw and EB assa. Think that was last time rogue was actual meta and popular (by rogue standards)

[heady dragon]

and same with the aoe, if a spec DOESNT have passive aoe cleave since Dragonflight, its legit unplayable in m+

[vale pine]

or what specifically do you want me to add