subtlety

[vale pine]

huh

[lucid jackal]

No

This is 10.2 and 10.2.5

[left ledge]

If you open the talent tree

You will see this cool thing called

Invigorating Shadowdust

[lucid jackal]

I'm following

[left ledge]

That made any cd ability on sub more powerful

[vale pine]

moment

[lucid jackal]

uh huh uh huh

[left ledge]

And if you look at current sub

[lucid jackal]

Mhmm

[left ledge]

The talent not only is never played

But can’t be played

[lucid jackal]

Can't be!?

[left ledge]

Because there’s no situation to game the talent

It also wasn’t even “great” in those niche cases 4 seasons ago

[lucid jackal]

Theres 1 dude here trying it out on ovinax

Wonder how good it actually was, vs most ppl "not bothering' with it cuz its kind of a clunker talent

[vale pine]

tornado is not like terrible

its like

you can get some more damage during cooldowns while stacks of flawless form are still up

[sullen hare]

It's a lot of squeeze for not a lot of juice

[vale pine]

so if you have burst aoe, can be okay

[lucid jackal]

I never liked tornado as a talent tbqh

But idk, it's bad for like, 1 szn I don't think its offensively bad like goremaws is f.ex

[vale pine]

but this does not mean it is design wise fitting the current iteration

[left ledge]

It’s easy to be in the logs with nado when our talent tree basically is static with one talent interchangeable usually that talent being borderline worthless

[vale pine]

it means you can find niche uses

where its not terrible

[lucid jackal]

https://tenor.com/view/moving-goalposts-goalposts-changing-requirements-gif-25214446

[vale pine]

like to burst down adds

if you can't without it

[left ledge]

It’s not really moving the goalpost but honestly

[vale pine]

whats unlikely

[livid rapids]

Tornado was ok ish pre hero talents, but currently it seems very clucky to use with even trickster atm

[left ledge]

I’ve had enough of that lmao

[lucid jackal]

I never liked torando much like I said but idk if its that offensively bad rn

[livid rapids]

heck even using it with shadowcraft active makes me want to gouge my eyes out

[left ledge]

It’s pretty shit

[lucid jackal]

Ok

[livid rapids]

at the wasted combo points

[vale pine]

i mean

i optimized it in the sim

[left ledge]

It literally INTENTIONALLY doesn’t work with our cds

[vale pine]

its not bad

some talent combos take it

its just not rly better

and it is terrible to play

[lucid jackal]

It didn't work with cooldowns either back in DF tbf lol

[alpine wraith]

you can use tornado on your cds

[vale pine]

to repeat myself, it does not fit the cooldown deisgn

[alpine wraith]

just need to sod late

[neon frigate]

Hey how is the 5% increase looking?

[alpine wraith]

but the gain is not huge

[vale pine]

yes

[lucid jackal]

Fucking epic

Log the fuck in

[left ledge]

Yes but at least we had dust

[alpine wraith]

yea man we are going to BLAST horrific visions

[vale pine]

tornado was bad in DF with the s3 rework already

[livid rapids]

It can be decent within the specific scenario, but to consistently replay that scenario will be too difficult to play out

[left ledge]

And yeah yeah dust bad for new player or whatever the fuck

[vale pine]

its just that even more damage is in cooldowns now

[neon frigate]

I solo visions already

[left ledge]

But it did benefit it

[alpine wraith]

you can use tornado to stack flag fast

[vale pine]

so having a unintuitive mess of a spell as a filler

[alpine wraith]

that has some use but not a whole lot

[vale pine]

isn't that good

its probably even good on deathstalker

because you get the additional shaodw damage amp

and bp does more damage

[lucid jackal]

It probably fucks on a fight like stix

Or at least, can get value from it

on DS, that extra CDR

[left ledge]

Maybe

Maybe they should do something with it though

I liked playing nado pre rework

[alpine wraith]

you can still use it just is not that good

[lucid jackal]

I never liked torando costing energy

Even if its "balanced" and "efficient" it just never felt good

[vale pine]

tornado is the most unintuitive spell in the game

[alpine wraith]

everyone wished they didnt make it not work with blades

[merry agate]

Bring back shuriken combo
Integrated into Tornado only

[vale pine]

my gf tried it once

[lucid jackal]

Or be on the GCD

[vale pine]

and she was just confused

[alpine wraith]

also the 1 sec delay

is so silly

like AHAHAH

[lucid jackal]

I just hate torando for like 5 different reasons

[left ledge]

Yeah to not be ST

But like

[lucid jackal]

60 energy and a GCD is just so cringe

[left ledge]

They just disabled it???

[alpine wraith]

yea like our other wonderful st talents

[left ledge]

Why not idk

DO SOMETHING WITH IT

[alpine wraith]

deeper daggers being one of the best

[vale pine]

i mean

tornado st is stupid

and was

so i am fine with that change

[left ledge]

Yes sure don’t make it ST

[alpine wraith]

new blades is stupid kinda

[left ledge]

But now it’s just a dead talent

[vale pine]

but thats because shadowcraft

[left ledge]

If new blades is stupid what was old blades

[alpine wraith]

makes cp gen silly and makes finishers have to have less impact

[vale pine]

fills our cp

so tornado does get wasted during blades/symbols

mostly

[alpine wraith]

old blades was just a passenger

[left ledge]

The thing is

Nado chomps your sht

[lucid jackal]

Idk man I love current sub, I just wish it was the best rogue spec by far in all content

[left ledge]

During blades

So unless you can natty cap cp

[lucid jackal]

and ofc, some cooler, less shit talents like goremaws n stuff

[alpine wraith]

yea you dont use blades with tornado

[left ledge]

It’s horrendous

[limpid sage]

That one guy saying “wrong rogue buffs. work on assassination” gotta be ragebait

[lucid jackal]

Gameplay is peak tho so can't complain too much

I'm jamming it on farm this week for sure

[left ledge]

Yes it’s not bad gameplay wise

[alpine wraith]

actually you flag tornado get your stacks then SoD late and blades

[left ledge]

Neither was bfa sub

[vale pine]

sylvanas dagger effect would be a better idea for goremaws talent ^^

[rapid forum]

Ye because he clearly ment outlaw 😼

[alpine wraith]

well dont worry bfa sub was another beast

[vale pine]

just a very simple solution to make the talent slot not ded

[left ledge]

Yeah idk how we didn’t get sylv dagger

[alpine wraith]

we were like 20% behind assa

[left ledge]

Assa can get execute AND funnel

But we just get fucking goremaw

[alpine wraith]

execute funnel uncap bleeding

3 target spread on dots

instead of 2

[vale osprey]

Give us cata legendary dagger effect

[alpine wraith]

higher aoe cleave

[vale pine]

no target cap on bf/nimble ^^

[left ledge]

It’s ok sub can swap and do 0 damage

[vale pine]

aoe dr + silence

[lucid jackal]

Sin has all these niches and hasn't been the best prog spec in years

Nice niches

[sly shore]

How about instead of adding old things they redesign the spec

[alpine wraith]

assa is not strong either

it is a worse arms warrior

[vale pine]

haha

[alpine wraith]

or uhdk

but we just get focused because it gets buffed always

[lucid jackal]

assa goated rn and sub about to be goated

[alpine wraith]

and 99.8% of the people have to enjoy not killing the raid in 2 weeks

[lucid jackal]

Buffs go nuclear

trust

[alpine wraith]

sadly most mythic guilds are still in sprocket

sorry to say

[sullen hare]

I'd fuck with that

[left ledge]

Sub about to be goated second bottom of the meters instead of bottom

[limpid sage]

Yeah it’s funny how the intended niches for specs typically aren’t what makes them picked a tier

[alpine wraith]

we will be a bit more than bottom now

[vale pine]

4% buff is a 4% buff

we take it

[alpine wraith]

yea now circe is even stronger

pog

also void ritual will now be 0.3% behind instead of 0.4

maybe

[limpid sage]

When you say 4%, is it because of dr on aura or?

[left ledge]

Can I take having tfd fixed, goremaw removed, nado made into something better, and Swift death not locked behind 3 random ass talents

[sullen hare]

We take the buff but I'm still gonna be grumpy about it

[left ledge]

Maybe even a little revert on the tier set nerf

If they’re feeling daring maybe they can even fix a few bugs

[vale pine]

https://tenor.com/view/swing-dance-swing-your-hips-dance-cute-dance-side-to-side-gif-11266223402338532724

^ we after the buffs

[dusk stone]

it doesnt seem like they want to mess with current patch tier sets

[vale pine]

revert secret nerfs^^

[short radish]

a secret nerf? they nerf'd us more without even telling us?

[dusk stone]

im not sure how good that is considering how wasted sectec is in rookery

[short radish]

for legal reasons the comment above was made in satire

[haughty mural]

We are so barrack

[vale pine]

i mentioned it earlier, they often did buff underperformers to be the "go to" in the past. It happened in multiple raids in SL/DF

but this time, they just want to make it not bad

[haughty mural]

I woke up and we are eating good today

[left ledge]

I still remember we were like 2 weeks off fated in DF

[vale pine]

which might be because their strategy tatgets a diffrent spec

[left ledge]

And they nerfed evis

I’m convinced they just have something against this spec

[dusk stone]

i'm not quite sure i follow, I understand the point of just trying to keep us happy

[exotic kelp]

Id be happy with sec tech getting a large buff and new flashy visuals.

[lucid jackal]

So against the spec its been the best rogue prog spec for almost 6 years straight

[left ledge]

Uh

[vale pine]

huh?

[vernal hull]

Let them cope

[left ledge]

What

Is this guy smoking

[sly shore]

Sub rogue has been the best early prog rogue spec for a while then assa gets buffed and sub falls off

[left ledge]

Yes

That’s more like it

[alpine wraith]

yea sub is good the 1 or 2 weeks or hard prog most of the time

but you know

everyone else also likes to play the other 5 months of the patch

and not feel nuked

[lucid jackal]

CN - Sub
Sanctum - Sub
Sepulcur - Sub
Vault - Sub
Aberrus - Sub
Amirdrassil - Sin until nerfs, and then sub was 10x better on last 3 even if they didn't nerf sin
Nerubar - Sub
Liberation - Sub

[merry agate]

Then everyone gets gear and we flatten out

[dusk stone]

well, not feel abandoned is what i would say

[left ledge]

CN all specs sucked ass

[lucid jackal]

Sub has been the best spec for prog for literally years

[livid rapids]

dont you like having tricks jpeg picture with a delay affect on top of your head for an hour?!?

[vale pine]

cn was a sub bench tier

[alpine wraith]

cn was bench

[left ledge]

Sanctum all specs were good

[vale pine]

aberrus too

[left ledge]

Vault was sin

[vale pine]

^^

[alpine wraith]

and sanctum was bench until we got more gear

[lucid jackal]

Vault wasn't sin

Vault was outlaw, or sub

[left ledge]

And nerubar became sin too I’m pretty sure

[alpine wraith]

not because we were bad but because people needed the raid cds

[lucid jackal]

Nobody was playing assa after they deleted exsang from the game

Nerubar sub was always better

[left ledge]

Sin was pretty good in vault

[lucid jackal]

Sub was just a better queen and silken boss

[vale pine]

cn was outlaw even, most people played outlaw early on

so cn - outlaw tier confirmed ^^

[lucid jackal]

CN was outlaw but nobody plays outlaw ever other than like me and loktark

[haughty mural]

What’s this discussion i stumbled in

[left ledge]

Also liberation is not sub

[haughty mural]

Are we not happy ?

[lucid jackal]

Liberation was a sub tier

[exotic kelp]

I think someone is doing a little trolling :3

[left ledge]

Yes the current tier with sub being the worst spec

[alpine wraith]

remember guy only plays first 3 weeks and blasts everything

[left ledge]

Is sub tier

[vernal hull]

He's right we just don't like it

[left ledge]

[lucid jackal]

I play the entire expac

[short radish]

weekly rant from guy about how sub has always been the premier prog spec since 5eva

[vale pine]

idk why you made amirdrasil mention sub

it was clearly a sin tier

[lucid jackal]

I don't play for 3 weeks

[vale pine]

for very early progress

[lucid jackal]

?

[alpine wraith]

shuriken combo is not coming back

[lucid jackal]

Did u read what I typed fuu

[vale pine]

why make the distinction

[alpine wraith]

although it would be cool

[vale pine]

if we talk first 2 weeks of a raid

[left ledge]

Yes sin was disgusting early amirdrassil

[round latch]

Tortilla with goat cheese,tomato,bacon,avocado,black pepper,pomegranade juice on the side

[vale pine]

people did only switch to sub on smolder

[lucid jackal]

Sin was broken, sin got nerfed, and then even if sin didnt get nerfed, Smolderon, Tindral, and Fyrak were so insanely broken for sub

[left ledge]

But anyways only like 2 tiers there were sub tiers

[lucid jackal]

Yeah I played assa on tindral and fyrak, sub was still better tho

[left ledge]

Maybe 3

[lucid jackal]

Is ur alt a boomkin?

[vale pine]

i mean

[lucid jackal]

No way u can say this with a straight face

[left ledge]

No I only play rogue

[vale pine]

you did not mention en

as an outlaw tier

[lucid jackal]

"Only 2 tiers were sub tiers"

[vale pine]

so it was weird you made a statement there

[vernal hull]

I played outlaw on tindral, got kicked out of my guild

[round latch]

lmao

[alpine wraith]

happens

[lucid jackal]

Sure if you wanna call CN an outlaw tier sure

[alpine wraith]

i played sub on azshara

[left ledge]

Yeah you’re coping

[alpine wraith]

had to find new guild too

[lucid jackal]

The only person coping here if you

[bleak night]

[merry agate]

🥺

[vernal hull]

I don't think he's coping. Sub is always taken early.

[lucid jackal]

You are literally saying to me "Sub was only good on 2 tiers" as its been the best prog spec for bleeding edge players for LITERALLY almost ever tier for YEARS now

[alpine wraith]

but what guy said is right if you only play first 3 weeks with your 10 rogue mirrors you will plau sub

[round latch]

rly?

[alpine wraith]

yea i got kicked

[left ledge]

Yes ofc not the person who said CN and aberrus was sub tier

[vale pine]

wdym?

[lucid jackal]

Okay mr

If you played rogue, in CN

What spec did u play

[left ledge]

And again idk how Sepulcher was sub tier when all 3 specs were disgusting

[lucid jackal]

"Bench" isnt a spec

So pick 1

[left ledge]

Sin

Lmao

[lucid jackal]

Delulu

[alpine wraith]

sepulcher we were benched until people got gear to not get 1 tapped on sylv

then we were welcome and even very good

[lucid jackal]

What spec was the first to kill denathrius?

[vernal hull]

If you count the tier as being done when the world race is over, sub stonks big

[teal prawn]

why cant i stealth during dance in open world

[lucid jackal]

Ill give u a guess

It wasn't sin

It wasnt outlaw

[alpine wraith]

yea big sub stonks for rfw

[little scaffold]

sin was only good in CN after it got giga buffed

[left ledge]

Oh I guess world first is a good indicator now

[lucid jackal]

Yep

[vale pine]

so

[alpine wraith]

sin was decent with the sbs bug

[vale pine]

hmm

[alpine wraith]

but people didnt know

[left ledge]

We all world first raiding

[short radish]

i mean rogue wasnt a class in CN

[alpine wraith]

only seli was a visionary

[vale pine]

i think echo played sin on raz

[left ledge]

We all raid 50 hours a day

Poggers

[lucid jackal]

Thats not the question I'm asking

[livid rapids]

bro coming in with cherry picked analysis and no receipts

[vale pine]

so it was a sin tier

?

[lucid jackal]

The question I'm asking is "whats the best ROGUE SPEC

[alpine wraith]

and they lost

[vale pine]

[alpine wraith]

unluck

[lucid jackal]

The question isn't "IS ROGUE GOOD THIS TIER"

[alpine wraith]

sin debuff

[lucid jackal]

Its "IF YOU PLAY ROGUE WHAT DO YOU PLAY"

[left ledge]

Only if it conforms to guys cherry picking

[alpine wraith]

sub was so good on razs

[rapid forum]

U sure? I remembered switching to sub for raz because it was so much better there (usually outlaw otp)

[alpine wraith]

because of p1 nonsense

[lucid jackal]

(It was better on raz)

[alpine wraith]

needed all the steps and vanishes

[short radish]

yeah but asking what the best rogue spec is the same as asking for a tier list

which we all know is stupid

[lucid jackal]

No?

[vale pine]

they played sin because they thought the enrage was tighter for the execute

[lucid jackal]

Its the entire context of this convo

[vale pine]

they prorgessed on sub

[lucid jackal]

It's not stupid

The entire convo is people pretending sub is bad

and has been bad for years

[livid rapids]

Sir can i get some facts to back up your arguements

[vale pine]

because it made more sense to help with the earlier phases

[lucid jackal]

Sub has been the best prog rogue spec VERY consistently

[alpine wraith]

sub is never bad just forgotten on buffs and ends up mid most of the time

[vale pine]

then played sin in the kill but blizz nerfed the enrage too much

[alpine wraith]

like what happened now

[vale pine]

so it was actually not needed

[alpine wraith]

first weeks it was kinda good

[left ledge]

It’s literally always

[alpine wraith]

then others got buffed

[left ledge]

Start as sub finish as sin

[lucid jackal]

Yeah sub just sucks rn, I wish it didn't but why do we just need to reinvent reality

[livid rapids]

If sub is good, what is the most dominated spec currently

[alpine wraith]

nothing else happened to sub

[sacred yarrow]

you guys play mythic so much you sometimes forget majority of player base does heroic max and the argument of rogue BiS on rwf only serves to fluff the early weeks of the spec. Players then notice ret pala is 4 buttons with more dps and switch.
Rogue was still BiS sure, but no one knows or wants to play it casually.

[rapid forum]

Ohh I see, ye in lower rank guilds the burst was needed for the encounter iirc (to kill adds on platforms and last add burst on 1st platform)

[keen dome]

Hell yeah 4.6%

I'm happy

[left ledge]

Unless you’re progging top 10

[lucid jackal]

This isnt the context of the convo so it's irrelevant

[vale pine]

the benefit of sub was it did rly well before the last phase too

[left ledge]

You’re not getting to play sub as THE prog spec

[lucid jackal]

The convo isn't "whats the best spec for heroic raiders"

[vale pine]

so it was def. the better spec

[short radish]

feels like there's two different contexts being argued.

youre arguing for the 1-4 week period of RWF/hof

everyone else is talking about rogue in general

[thin oak]

Its gonna be time for recrafting all the gear again

[vale pine]

also why tf do we always come to discuss what spec is good for the first 2 weeks of progress when talking balance

[left ledge]

Idk

[alpine wraith]

sub was still not bad those tiers after some weeks just worse

[sacred yarrow]

im sorry but it seems you consistently try to bring out how "rogue sub does not suck" over here

[lucid jackal]

I'm arguing for a majority of prog, people pushing for hall of fame

[vale pine]

a patch is not only 2 weeks of content

but months

many guilds progress slower

[alpine wraith]

those are like 400 people in the world

[lucid jackal]

Because this entire discord is full of victims who need a reality check

[dusk stone]

because we scale the most at the start of the tier

[alpine wraith]

wow has like 3m people

[vale pine]

i know certain individuals think balance does not care once it does not for them, but can we please consider more than 2-3 weeks of a patch relevant

[livid rapids]

So bro is saying that, Sub is used for RTWF early on due to the specs niche gameplay style, but currently they are not used in mythic raid?

[left ledge]

Yeah my reality check is the logs

[vale pine]

it helps keep the discussion healthy and not polarizing

[alpine wraith]

well more like sub has been quite decent as rogue first few weeks

and not like we get nerfed nowadays

[livid rapids]

im not sure what you are arguing about if you want to specifically talk about mythic raiding

[keen dome]

We suffered more than anybody in BfA, that was trauma for life.

[alpine wraith]

just others get buffed

dont worry early cata or mop or even WoD was

way worse than bfa

if you can imagine

[lucid jackal]

14 weeks into the tier it doesn't matter what spec u play outside of situations like exactly now where sub is turbo shit

[spark plover]

"sub scalling"

[sacred yarrow]

but sub does suck, versus the rest of the ecosystem

[vale pine]

i am happy if sub was good for early progress for top guilds

[left ledge]

I wouldn’t consider myself super top for prog

[worn ivy]

I DONT KNOW HOW TO REACT THIS SUBTLETY BUFFS BUT I CAN GIVE YOU RECEIP FOR BAKED RICOTTA CHEESECAKE.

2 (8 ounce) packages cream cheese, softened

1 (16 ounce) container ricotta cheese

4 large eggs

1 ½ cups white sugar

½ cup butter, melted and cooled

3 tablespoons flour

3 tablespoons cornstarch

1 tablespoon lemon juice

1 teaspoon vanilla extract

[left ledge]

But I’m not a heroic raider

[dusk stone]

its an awful niche though

[short radish]

you know what as well, both points here are also probably correct.

Sub is strong early on

assi also just gets played more in general, except when sub is turbo busted which is why it feels like sub always gets left out

[keen dome]

I'm happy we got the aura buff we needed to be, hopefully, middle of the pack. hell yeah

[alpine wraith]

i mean 14 weeks into the tier i can always play arms warrior

[dusk stone]

it would only add to us being balanced poorly

[lucid jackal]

Right now yes, but this entire convo started off the fact that @left ledge is convinved that sub has been "The best rogue spec for prog in 2 tiers" which is just not a statement grounded in reality

[left ledge]

And I’ve not had the pleasure of enjoying sub in prog as much as you argue

[haughty mural]

Lashga are you loosing it again ?

[left ledge]

What

[dusk stone]

we cant do X because we don't want Y to be strong at Z point in the patch

[alpine wraith]

lashga got replaced by ai

[vale pine]

what is played is always depending on tuning

[alpine wraith]

he got too happy about buffs

[left ledge]

You need to reword that because idek what you said lmao

[left ledge]

Yes out of your list

[lucid jackal]

This is what you said

[vale pine]

you see a clear shift in players towards what is tuned the highest, especially if tuning diffrences are 5% diffrences

[thin oak]

A genius question for the panel. If you are progging on Mug mythic - would it be a disaster to switch away from sin to sub on wednesday with this 5% buff?

[left ledge]

It’s 2-3 sub tiers

[alpine wraith]

guy was not there for our 1100 tries on generals

[lucid jackal]

You think from CN to right now, there have been 2 sub tiers?

[sacred yarrow]

my bad for butting in then, that sounds a bit delulu 🫡

[lucid jackal]

You are off your fuckin rocker bro

[left ledge]

That reads like I’m saying it’s the best past 2 tiers

[livid rapids]

Are you referring to the first 3 weeks of prob, or the whole raid patch?

[lucid jackal]

LMFAOOOOO thank you

[left ledge]

Yes

[lucid jackal]

Meant to reply

[alpine wraith]

both do fine now with fast strat

[little scaffold]

sub has definitely had more than 2-3 good tiers since SL lol

[alpine wraith]

assa cant get 2 DM in execute/bl

[vale pine]

nope, sin has execute and the 5% buff does not change that

[short radish]

yeah but the proportion of ppl playing assi when assi is strong vs ppl playing sub when sub is strong feels different

[left ledge]

There’s been 2-3 definitive sub tiers

[worn ivy]

Assa still better because of execute.

[short radish]

but then again im talking about feelcraft

[left ledge]

Statistically

[short radish]

so what do i know

[left ledge]

There are numbers for this

[thin oak]

Thanks!

[keen dome]

What makes something a Sub tier

[vale pine]

i looked up tiers where sin was bad, its rly not that diffrent

[native zodiac]

🍿

[alpine wraith]

some people are doing speed strat so they dont get bl in execute or 2 DM now

[lucid jackal]

Numbers don't tell u this

[alpine wraith]

so it is kinda sameish

[vale pine]

its just that sin was overall more times good for bigger timeframes

so it has more lovers

[alpine wraith]

but yea i dont see sub beating sin there anyway just wont get rolled

[short radish]

orly? fair i'll take your word for it.

[left ledge]

Filtered

[livid rapids]

I think the confusion here is ForeverGuy is only looking at the first 3 weeks as a meaning for the term "tier" excluding the rest of the patch cycle as irrelevant

[left ledge]

Calling sanctum sub tier is just dumb when all 3 specs were top

[tribal blade]

do you guys know roughly how much dps gain the belt will be

[lucid jackal]

I'm not only looking at the first 3 weeks

[vale pine]

its like guy did say

[keen dome]

I don't think it's finalized yet so probably not something we can tell?

[livid rapids]

But thats what you are arguing????

[alpine wraith]

quite a bit at 700 ilvl

[vale pine]

sub is good for 2-3 weeks

[little scaffold]

sin is also just easier most of the time
if both specs are close, most people will play sin

[alpine wraith]

but it is timegates

[lucid jackal]

Hall of fame is longer than 3 weeks bro

[vale pine]

people don't want to learn a spec for 2-3 weeks

so they play sin

[alpine wraith]

the base 684 one is less

[dusk stone]

yeah its a bad niche to have

[tribal blade]

oh that's right it goes up to 700

[keen dome]

Yeah

It has mainstat on it so it's just gonna be Good

[alpine wraith]

that is why i moved embellsh to boots

[sullen hare]

Weird, you misspelled ret paladin.

[livid rapids]

So your arguement is that its a sub tier based on the % of rogue players in the hall of fame?

[vale pine]

haha

[tribal blade]

trying to figure out how much more key inflation will happen because of gaining power

[vale pine]

i mean also true

[keen dome]

My guesss is maybe 1 - 2 levels at most

[livid rapids]

Girl what kind of gamer are you?

[alpine wraith]

think people still have 2-3 lvls in the tank

yea

depending

[fringe palm]

@lucid jackal you're in on of the last guilds that can say sub is better in prog. +20 worldranks and it's even at best

[worn ivy]

The old tier set was 10x bettet than this shit.

[short radish]

wait are we getting belt this season?

[lucid jackal]

My argument is that if you are somebody who pushes world ranks, and you care about playing the best spec on prog, since the start of Shadowlands you have almost ALWAYAS Defaulted to sub rogue

[sullen hare]

.7

[tribal blade]

we are! in .7

[short radish]

fucks sake

[tribal blade]

the wait within

[lucid jackal]

what

[alpine wraith]

yea in like 2 or 3 weeks

[cerulean beacon]

would you guys agree the class as a whole needs a heavy rework tho. like ret-tier rework (not necessarily in terms of simplifying it but like modernizing it)

[alpine wraith]

we get the belt

[rapid forum]

I rolled an alt on it, stupid how basic the class is yet performs so good, feels banger and looks great to play too

I'm mad yes

[short radish]

rework? no. reoptimization? yes

[rapid forum]

Fuck ret

[alpine wraith]

it is unlikely we get the ret treatment

the skeleton is decent it just has lots of useless or outdated things

for no reason

[tribal blade]

the most ideal thing they do for sub is rework things that keep causing issues/bugs

[vale pine]

like even if we make a estimate of 4-5 weeks

a patch is 6-7 months

lets be super generouse

[livid rapids]

Yet you are sayinng that everyone here is complaining, unjustified, that we are crying like babies, due to the fact that after the hall of fame is done that we become a worse in comparrison to other rogue specs?

[vale pine]

and say 6 weeks sub is good

[left ledge]

This argument is actually so incredibly stupid you can just check the spec statistics for hof

[lucid jackal]

If you mean like, our kill was around the cutoff point in which sub could be justified to be played? I would probably agree. It was mostly a sub tier until sin got buffed. So I think it's fair to say that this tier was more of a sin tier just by virtue of how bad sub is rn

[sacred yarrow]

in a rework blizz will always try to simplify now, how else will the new players want to play it. pala is their baby so it got that treatment and it worked

[leaden plover]

Sub is the best Rogue spec, wdym guys?

[rapid forum]

At least sub didn't try to hit dead target for multiple expansions

[livid rapids]

More people play the game than selective 100 guild Hall of fame players

[lucid jackal]

I agree

[vale pine]

still means other specs are better for ~19 weeks out of 25

[lucid jackal]

However, even if you want to say this tier is a sin tier, sub has still been extremely dominant over the years

[alpine wraith]

for the context he was talking sub is decent almost always problem comes after

[fringe palm]

Fyrakk = even, last 2 in palace assa>=sub if you aren't wr25 or better, this raid assa on mugzee and even after first balance patch on end boss

[alpine wraith]

and the dropoff is criminal

[wild hornet]

Are the lesser enchants one time use?

[alpine wraith]

yes

[royal pier]

will sub be not shit now

[alpine wraith]

but you can buy more for 500 mementos

after

on the same npc

[sacred yarrow]

fair but like with any game most of the changes are made with eyes top to bottom

[bleak night]

yes but you can buy more

[vale pine]

which is 75% of a tier roughly

[keen dome]

Absolutely. But you've also got to consider the incredible lengths of time that Sub has been bad which def factors into the feeling people have about it

[tribal blade]

damn sub gets 1 buff and this channel explodes

[bleak night]

as is tradition

rogue discord mad when nerfs

[keen dome]

4.6% more posting

[bleak night]

rogue discord even more mad when buffs

[royal pier]

because we are bored of assa and outlaw is wack

[tribal blade]

hey that's almost the same as the buff amount 😉

[lucid jackal]

Id argue fyrak Sub was still more valuable to help break shields but the spec that was better was mostly comp dependant
Queen I'd argue sub was still better just because it helped with platform 1 damage and it's not like sin did significantly more boss damage anyway
This tier yeah like I said, I'd probably say this tier was a sin tier more than sub especially post sin buff

[teal prawn]

nerf outlaw, we need some bans

[vale pine]

we are not mad about buffs

[keen dome]

Buffs rule

Middle of the pack let's gooo

[dusk stone]

we have given up over the buffs apparently

[tribal blade]

i meant explode as in everyone talking in here haha

[worn ivy]

REMOVE BLACKPOWDER GIVE ME PRIORY DAMAGE I WANNA BE MELEE ARCANE MAGE.

[alpine wraith]

yea now maybe i can break the 12m sec tech mark

[vale pine]

we just discuss

[alpine wraith]

there is hope

[haughty mural]

Tier is longer than 3 weeks for most people

[wild hornet]

Sub buff? I haven't heard of that in a While

Source?

[vale pine]

because guy needs to always tell people how ungreatful they are when sub is always the best spec

[tribal blade]

wake up, it's a dream

[lucid jackal]

That's not the point I'm trying to make

[left ledge]

It definitely is

[bleak night]

incredibly based

[left ledge]

When you make a list that’s just false

[worn ivy]

BASED

[livid rapids]

Then make your point

[wild hornet]

Figured, kinda have to force into outlaw for oab

[alpine wraith]

yea not a dream we have been buffed bois

[left ledge]

And use it to say sub is dominant for 6 years

[vale pine]

and i mean guy is right

sub is the best spec even if its not good

[lucid jackal]

My argument is that if you are somebody who pushes world ranks, and you care about playing the best spec on prog, since the start of Shadowlands you have almost ALWAYAS Defaulted to sub rogue

[vale pine]

just most fun to play

😛

[alpine wraith]

sub bis spec in our hearts

[lucid jackal]

Reposted and rereplied to you

[short radish]

based and fuck playing assi (outlaw doesnt exist)

[lucid jackal]

Since u didnt catch it the first time

[worn ivy]

@vale pine are u playing the game? Can i see your armory need some
Copy paste for raids

[alpine wraith]

i do like seeing people play sub for prog

[lucid jackal]

Same

[alpine wraith]

you can copy the things on the sheet he has

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

lol

[lucid jackal]

I have for sure enjoyed playing sub on prog a lot, it's been a fun spec thru a lot of variations

[cosmic viper]

Let’s just all play outlaw

[fallow nimbus]

Did I read buff?

[alpine wraith]

yea only sad boss this tier was sprocket

[lucid jackal]

Even if at the time I was a lil complainer

[alpine wraith]

was a wanker

[alpine wraith]

having to storm to get fw

[tribal blade]

dw we are professional complainers here

[alpine wraith]

we are not many but we are experienced

[cosmic viper]

Xddd

[leaden plover]

Hes got a point, outlaw is just superior🤣

[worn ivy]

I need link for fuus armory 🙂

[alpine wraith]

been complaining in the forums since 2006

[sullen hare]

https://tenor.com/view/right-to-jail-right-away-fred-armisen-parks-and-rec-right-to-jail-jail-gif-1866630920936314540

[vale pine]

tbh i got some dm's

[rapid forum]

I'm rolling my bones so hard rn

[formal helm]

why would you need that @worn ivy ?

[sacred yarrow]

youre being weird

[fallow nimbus]

Now that i made some assa gear and even put a socket on some haste wrists

[vale pine]

people are actually mad that sin is the dominant m+ spec

[lucid jackal]

I love current sub I want it to be the best spec forever in it's current state

[vale pine]

they want to play outlaw

[alpine wraith]

ahaha true

[cosmic viper]

Killing spree to ur death baby

[keen dome]

[alpine wraith]

legion and bfa was so good for outlaw in m+

[worn ivy]

I wanna see his ingame name

[alpine wraith]

even sl it was very good

although legion everything worked kinda

because of busted trinks

[haughty mural]

I recrafted everything back to sub from sin yesterday - i knew
(Not for the fact I couldn’t stand assa anymore)

[lucid jackal]

I'm giving next weeks reclear a sniff on sub for sure

[alpine wraith]

big 30k mastery enjoyer

gotta get the numbers up

[formal helm]

I just remember hacha always being mastery enjoyer

[fallow nimbus]

I am lucky that i have 2 sets of crafted things

[haughty mural]

Just crit

[livid rapids]

My perspective, it that Sub has been a very strong spec typically going into RTWF due to the niche of the specs prio dmg. However the complaints that we have is that typically as the tier goes on, that niche is evaporated due to either tuning or raid buffs causing the spec to fall considerably out of favor most of the time resulting in post Hall of Fame, somewhere around 2/3rds of the tier to be dominated by other specs.

[formal helm]

if there's any way to just completely cook the game with 100m mastery he's there

[lucid jackal]

It's not niche, it's just tuning

Sub has for years just been the highest tuned rogue spec, and then Outlaw will get played a bit, and then sin will get buffed

[alpine wraith]

yea like sub was not bad just didnt get buffs and others did

[tame stone]

NO WAY

[lucid jackal]

Or sin will be overtuned and get nerfed type beat

[alpine wraith]

the nerfs and everything came before the raid

[tame stone]

5% is huge isnt it

[lucid jackal]

Like vualt was going to be a sin tier, and then exsang got removed from the game

[livid rapids]

Just cause there are nuance to the conversation doesnt mean to jump in here to branch all of the people in this discussion as "crying babies"

[alpine wraith]

im sad people never got to like the 12m+ burst we had

in ptr

[worn ivy]

Hows 5% huge

[fringe palm]

Vault was really well balanced for rogue tbh

[alpine wraith]

it is enough to be mid pack

nothing crazy

[worn ivy]

If you really think 5% is huge your delusional

[alpine wraith]

it is not huge no one said it was

[tame stone]

well its a start

[alpine wraith]

we are still mid but wont get more likely

[keen dome]

It puts us in the middle of the pack which is good. It's also relative.

[fallow nimbus]

It's more than 0

[keen dome]

It's a good buff.

[short radish]

thats what she said.

[tame stone]

at least we wont be bottom tier

[sacred yarrow]

we actually have proper arguments, even the wrong ones are well articulated, we're more of a round table type crying

[upbeat cradle]

When my guild told me i had to go Sub for i forgot which troll boss in BfA, i was the happiest i had ever been

[lucid jackal]

I'm down to have a nuanced convo, my problem is with statements like "The devs are purposefully keeping the spec weak because they hate it" (which is what started the whole convo as a reminder) isn't a convo of nuance, it's just brainrot that isn't even accurate.

[keen dome]

Was it Zul

[tame stone]

im not saying we will top charts

[alpine wraith]

i hope you didnt get to play mythrax after

[tame stone]

but we actually got something

[alpine wraith]

i was so glad i was benched

[sullen hare]

Almost guaranteed

[alpine wraith]

what a boss

[keen dome]

Zul, the Sub Killer

[upbeat cradle]

Think so. Tons of adds, tons of funneling

[short radish]

fuck Zul

[alpine wraith]

you also played sub on fetid

the darkshadow MFD build

[fallow nimbus]

Now they can focus on 11.2, fix cdr/fw, dead talents and some nice qol

[lucid jackal]

Start of the convo btw

[sullen hare]

Fetid is actual suffering as melee

[lucid jackal]

context 📷

[keen dome]

Yep that was Zul. Our bright moment before we got slapped down into the depths for the rest of that expansion

[alpine wraith]

for big prog it was not

you had 3 melee

LUL

for most people it was more annoying tho

[sullen hare]

Did your frost mages also use the adds as free damage and derailed pulls?? Asking for a friend

[livid rapids]

I can agree with that, earlier we were discussing the problem with the current state of the specs, but kept having people come in complaining about class competitive viablitiy

[fringe palm]

I get why but can you see what's triggering people xd

[livid rapids]

Some people only care about my class at top of overall dps

[lucid jackal]

Oh I can absolutely understand how I stir the pot

[keen dome]

I didn't even see Zul Heroic before Sub got nerfed 'cos I was so casual in BfA lmao

[livid rapids]

I dont believe in that

[lucid jackal]

Yeah design and tuning are two separate things that a lot of ppl seem to conflate

Sub being fun
Sub being undertuned
Sub having bad talents

these 3 can all be true at the same time

[livid rapids]

I think its a privileged position to demand being compeitive top of the pile, and consider anything not that to be bad.

[lucid jackal]

But some people conflate "the spec is weak" with "The entire spec needs an overhaul"

[worn ivy]

THE PROBLEM STILL EXIST

• You dont have the highest burst in the game.
• You dont have the best prio damage.
  -You dont have best aoe damage
  -You are not the most tankiest.
• You are not doing best ST
• Your not bringing the best utility for team.

BASICLY anything you do. Other specs does better. So imo the problem was never damage. It needs rework entire spec immidietly

[lucid jackal]

See

[short radish]

it kinda does if you take m+ into account

[lucid jackal]

Wdym

[formal helm]

@lucid jackal yeah but people are like this always

[short radish]

because with the current state of m+ where it's just giga pulls

[alpine wraith]

lashga i think blizz has done away with the spec needs a niche

sadly it is a reality

[short radish]

and every spec does infinite damage out of their cds

[alpine wraith]

big specs just do a lot of thing better than other tuned specs

gone are the days of you cant do x

but do y very well

[wide sonnet]

hey guys

[lucid jackal]

I mean ppl said that about outlaw and assa right

[wide sonnet]

Is sub easier to learn than sin?

[lucid jackal]

"They are so shit in keys they are never going to be playable cuz x y z"

and then outlaw and sin are chilling rn

[alpine wraith]

sub can be harder

[teal prawn]

no

[short radish]

yeah then assi got reworks

[tame stone]

dont think so

[alpine wraith]

but it is not super hard

[lucid jackal]

Sub is just a bit shit rn in keys compared to sin/otl, I don't think it needs a reinvention to fix it

[short radish]

and is now pumping

[lucid jackal]

Buff trickster cleave, buff some more aura shit

[tame stone]

u need like 1 hour on dummy to learn sub and then you're good

[lucid jackal]

Buff sectec

[wide sonnet]

1 hour on sub and good hmm

[keen dome]

Remove Shot in the Dark because I personally hate it as a node

[fringe palm]

They're both not the best st or 50target spec pls rework

[tame stone]

its literally just the opener, rest is easy

[wide sonnet]

i died a lot to ks tonight

[fringe palm]

But class tree actually needs A Lot of changes

[molten citrus]

[alpine wraith]

but yea sub is not the best at anything and neither are outlaw or sin

[lucid jackal]

Mom says it's my turn to be the hero class in M+

[alpine wraith]

rogue is just there

[molten citrus]

its legit impossible to have every spec in the game be the best at 1 thing

[alpine wraith]

not bad not incredible useful if you dont have the big spec bois

[worn ivy]

ALSO i still dont understand how subtlety does not scale better with ilevel and gear. It should be other way arround we scale the best compare to outlaw and assa.

[keen dome]

I also think there's the issue of trying to do the absolute hardest content which less than 0.01% of the poplation in the game will do. Blizz will never design around that, nor should they. Like, if Sub is bad there then rip that's how it is.

[alpine wraith]

well people get jaded as the only triple dps melee spec

to not be the best at anything

[tame stone]

the worst thing about rogue and its specs is that all 3 need different stats

[molten citrus]

holy fucking cookery we're onto scaling now

[alpine wraith]

i can understand althoigh i already got used to it

[fringe palm]

Would you say just doubling the value of mastery fixes sub?

[tame stone]

you cannot just swap to a different spec from sub

[haughty mural]

Lashga stop

[tame stone]

you would need to replace 85% of your gear

[haughty mural]

Getting cringe

[short radish]

yes but our "thing" is burst damage right? and we're not even the best at that

[keen dome]

I just swap to assa without changing any gear and it works fien

[lucid jackal]

U think so? I kinda like it overall. Tea is a bit eh, cold blood should just be made into a passive somehow, and I think sub needs an actual vanish synergy (not shadowdust) and I think it'd be chill

[alpine wraith]

yea assa with sub gear works fine

[short radish]

and we're the worst spec out of cds

[lucid jackal]

I like supercharger a lot

[molten citrus]

and that is 100% fine

[lucid jackal]

Ppl were so down on supercharger but holy shit it owns so hard

[molten citrus]

you don't HAVE to be the best at anything

[alpine wraith]

yea it is a preconception people have

[molten citrus]

being good is good enough sometimes

[alpine wraith]

but it is very prevalent

[livid rapids]

The arguements that the spec needs a second look at, is the fact that the Hero Talents are poorly designed, that there are unintuitive talents like tornado, and really no talent variety. Sub doesn't have utility and tends to rely on its damage profile to be "viable/playable" to the sweaty 0.1% of players. So when at times sub rogue can be so below average in damage, where is the need to play the highly complicated spec compare to ret paly.

[short radish]

yes but when you're the absolute worst at something, you'd hope you're the absolute best at something else

[alpine wraith]

only can choose dps- 1 point not best at anything 2 points only can be melee 3 points

that make people think it should be

[haughty mural]

Supercharger is goated

Really good addition

[fringe palm]

It's less the capstone talents and more the utility/defense part. It's crazy what kinda shit we have to skill. A lot of nodes you could remove and it wouldn't change anything

[short radish]

i dont think anyones saying sub needs to the best at something

[lucid jackal]

I think a majority of specs could use a "second pass" to sand down some of the stinky edges

[haughty mural]

Realz and co cooked there

[keen dome]

Perforated Veins / Lingering Shadows are pretty useless nodes that I'd personally like to see changed. Goremaw could be made into something more interesting and thematic. Shot in the Dark is a really annoying pathing node that feels bad to take. For a Finisher spec, I think they could do something to make those first two nodes interact or work with finisher damage, not builder. Like, whenever I look at the tree? Those are the standout things I think need an overhaul.

[molten citrus]

it just isn't possible to have 39 specs with 1 niche they are the BEST at doing. 39 niches do not exist.

[haughty mural]

If he is still on this class

[short radish]

but what is subs niche

[lucid jackal]

thats spec not class

[short radish]

burst?

1.5min

[keen dome]

Fair

[molten citrus]

it doesn't matter

[alpine wraith]

not really you could say our niche

is running fast in stealth

[molten citrus]

there isn't 39 niches

[alpine wraith]

with a cd

[bleak night]

purple farts

[lucid jackal]

Subs niche is having the best ST burst in the game

[alpine wraith]

because other things feral does better

well if by best you mean 40% worse than others yea

[short radish]

it's also conflated by having a non essential raid buff

[alpine wraith]

but also the thing is our burst is VERY reliable

at least

others need some rng

[fringe palm]

@lucid jackal read the dk class tree once for example and you know what I mean

[worn ivy]

Deva does more burst st no ?

[wide sonnet]

sub has more survivability and runspeed than sin tho?

[lucid jackal]

without lust I think its close

Sub doesn't rely on lust to do big dam

[short radish]

every class, except DK i guess is a mandatory raidbuff

[alpine wraith]

moonkin/feral/mm/ww/arcane/dev do more burst

but can be rng a bit

[lucid jackal]

Like subs 2nd, 3rd, 4th cd sets are stronger than any other spec in the game other than like, execute lust type shit

I mean sub has a niche it's just undertuned bruv

[formal helm]

reliant on procs iirc (not an expert on this, jut what I heard froma friend playing it)

[lucid jackal]

yaya, a lot of other classes do it differently for sure

[keen dome]

More damage to SecTec

[lucid jackal]

I've been playing shit like warrior/pala and its for sure different but I do like how interesting the bottom of the tree ends up being for different playstyles

[worn ivy]

Eviscrate needs more love

[short radish]

please stop asking evis to be buffed

[haughty mural]

Im just happy we were bugged 4.6%

[short radish]

i dont want to play deathstalker

[haughty mural]

We are eating good

[fringe palm]

Keep the bottom part except recuperate that's fine

[formal helm]

same brother

[alpine wraith]

dont worry evis is better on trickster

[livid rapids]

Im the same when playing mage and going omg i can do utility in M+, rather than just only focusing on raw dmg

[alpine wraith]

only bp is problematic

[short radish]

kk

[alpine wraith]

for deathstalker

[short radish]

good to know

[alpine wraith]

dn power lvl is quite low

[worn ivy]

Did they fix rookery first boss where your clones falling of edge ?

[short radish]

lol no

[formal helm]

no

[lucid jackal]

Like idk if u play warrior at all but these talents are boring af imo compared to what rogue has

Might be bias but

[haughty mural]

Why would they

[tame stone]

i wouldnt mind an RNG proc from the set

[vocal ledge]

Warrior cap stones are really bad

[tame stone]

something like mm hunt with its stupid lock and load

when numbers go big my brain likes it

[haughty mural]

Did they stealth fix tfd bug ?

[ashen dock]

worst designed talent ever. having a 4 set proc like it does, is awful

[lucid jackal]

Part of the issue is that rogue in wow has sort of been designed in such a way to not have such a wide and diverse utility toolkit. I personally don't expect that to change much since that's how its been for a very long time now

[fringe palm]

I agree, like I said the bottom part is fine. I don't like that it's points for 2%conditional leech, less duration of slow effects which has 0 pve impact, the crimson phial thing

All terrible

[lucid jackal]

Yeah I mean theres some real stinkers up top

There are some OP ones

I wish there were more OP ones tho

[short radish]

sucks also that shroud has been deleted from m+

but then its like "make shroud needed" and you always need a rogue

[tame stone]

why is this a thing, shadowmeld exists and shroud is gutted

[fringe palm]

Rogue is not tanky anymore compared to other classes, the tinfoil says rogue becomes too op in pvp if they give too much useful utility

[haughty mural]

My friends like my speedshroud

[lucid jackal]

featherfoot, improved sprint, shadowrunner, nimble fingers and iron stomach, fleet footed, thrill seeking all sick af

[fringe palm]

But idk don't play that mode

[short radish]

because blizzard watch people play on the PTR, see which packs get skipped and then put an eye on that mob

[lucid jackal]

I think thats the thing I miss most when I swap off rogue

[short radish]

they'll do it live

[lucid jackal]

Is how much baseline movement speed rogue has

[tulip gorge]

no because they gave priest a 5 sec cd shroud

[short radish]

oh yeah 100%. i feel so slow playing any other class

[lucid jackal]

My rogue sits idle at like 140% movement speed and my warrior is at like 102% or some shit

[short radish]

running around with 160 movespeed 80% of the time is amazing

[proper latch]

What if I WANT to be the best at atleast one thing?

[short radish]

play a mage

[tame stone]

reroll

[proper latch]

And our "thing" is the burst damage

[molten citrus]

you are fast

that is your thing

[short radish]

wait true

[molten citrus]

gl

[short radish]

holy shit

thats subs niche

we're fast as fuck

[formal helm]

fast af boi

[short radish]

and our survivability

[tame stone]

monks have a better movement in raids imo

[short radish]

passive 25% DR ftw

[bleak night]

sub is bis spec for farming old raids

[short radish]

this is why sub gets brought to RWF

[alpine wraith]

yea that is also a problem when you log in feral

[tame stone]

alot of our movement is in shadowstep

[alpine wraith]

it is faster

aaaaaaaaa

[fringe palm]

Noone beats sub in an indoor 5k

[tame stone]

go handle coils on gally and cry

[upbeat cradle]

Rogue is the class best at playing twitch lurkbait fishing with

[alpine wraith]

we are top 5 speed

[proper latch]

Shitty internet

[short radish]

nah surely we're #1 speed

[tame stone]

no

[alpine wraith]

feral is faster most of the time unless you vanish and pop dance

[tame stone]

bring back burst of speed then maybe

[alpine wraith]

havoc too but not for long

[haughty mural]

I’d argue monk

[lucid jackal]

feral is also feral

[short radish]

i do find it amusing we have shroud movespeed increase also as our niche

[tulip gorge]

rider DK is quite fast

[short radish]

and shroud is also dedge

[alpine wraith]

monk has lots of mobility

[tulip gorge]

and for a long time

[alpine wraith]

but not speed speed i think

[tame stone]

monk has the most versatile movement

[short radish]

except in top

[alpine wraith]

only has tiger lust

[lucid jackal]

I mean warrior isn't immobile, but I'm just talking baseline movement speed

[alpine wraith]

yea just going w

[lucid jackal]

Like trying to just walk out of a slam

My warrior is waddling her ass out bro

[tame stone]

i also hate how they took FSK from monk, made it a damage ability that just feels clunky

[short radish]

yeah i die to circles in top too many times on my paladin

[void ocean]

could it be... are my eyes deceiving me...

[ashen dock]

are people actually ok?

[short radish]

wowhead comments are truly unhinged

i havent seen tormus comment yet

[alpine wraith]

yea they are always so cool

[short radish]

his are great

[sullen hare]

Totally cooked but good for popcorn

[haughty mural]

It is

[lucid jackal]

This is who the devs have to balance the game around

[short radish]

dont forget about the comment asking for more assi rogue buffs

[worn ivy]

Wow devs does not care about m+ balancing tbh

[bleak night]

based as fuck

[worn ivy]

Based

[round latch]

true buff mages

i swear this class has everything and their discord is down the doom pit

[sacred yarrow]

wrong comment section, this is discord

[void ocean]

if only Fuu wrote the article earlier 😄

[merry agate]

Ohhhh nooooo bros why?!

[void ocean]

like in march

[molten citrus]

@lucid jackal did you watch ion's presentation thing?

[merry agate]

[wide sonnet]

D oyou guys macro cold blood + Secret Tech?

[molten citrus]

no

[void ocean]

yes and no 😄

[lucid jackal]

Which one

[molten citrus]

i think it was just the other day?

[alpine wraith]

the one that will kill addons

funny watch

im curious to see how it'll go

[molten citrus]

nah not the one with max and dratnos

[lucid jackal]

Yeah I watched that why

[keen dome]

Same. I think there's some interesting potential and baking stuff into the game properly (Which cooldown manager isn't and they've admitted that) is always going to be a good thing

[lucid jackal]

the max/dratnos one

[molten citrus]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/20-years-of-warcraft-meeting-players-where-they-are-376972?utm_source=discord-webhook

[sacred yarrow]

yes

[molten citrus]

not that one

the one i just linked

[lucid jackal]

oh

Not the one

No I didn't I was busy all day today

[molten citrus]

should check it out

[lucid jackal]

GOnna watch it when I wake up

Bed soon

[wide sonnet]

do i need HoC to play sub?

[molten citrus]

it was rly good

[bleak night]

[short radish]

yes

[wide sonnet]

so i should just go learn sin instead

I dont have it

[open vortex]

You have alternatives

[short radish]

no go buy one

[alpine wraith]

oh i also didnt watch that one

[short radish]

or get the pvp trinket

[sacred yarrow]

"Stay Agile" - look, he mentioned sub rogues

[molten citrus]

get the pvp Badge conquest trinket

[bleak night]

agility specs rise

[lucid jackal]

Game design philosphy is interesting

[keen dome]

Bring back waterwalking on sprint

That's my hot take take on rogue design

Bring that back and the class is saved

[bleak night]

bring back burst of speed

[molten citrus]

he talked a lot about how buffing underperforming specs makes good players play those specs, causing logs to shift majorly.

[bleak night]

so i can do transmog runs even faster

[molten citrus]

it was a good listen

[wide sonnet]

this

[sacred yarrow]

bring back recuperate-- oh wait, nevermind

[molten citrus]

yh

[lucid jackal]

Wait

Ur telling me

The thing I've been saying for years is true?

[molten citrus]

i mean

smart people have known this since WotLK

[lucid jackal]

No shit

[molten citrus]

[lucid jackal]

But i say these things and i get FLAMED

[bleak night]

are people surprised that specs get played more after they get buffed

[alpine wraith]

yea it always happened

[lucid jackal]

(sometimes)

[alpine wraith]

just look at arcane now

enjoyers came back home

[round latch]

(always)

[leaden prairie]

Nerf sub

[alpine wraith]

from fire prison

[wide sonnet]

can i just use my max alchemist stone?

[keen dome]

Nerf Zac

[molten citrus]

i asked for outlaw rogue nerfs

inc

dw

[wide sonnet]

or

[leaden prairie]

What where

[wide sonnet]

I need the on use trinket for sub cds

[leaden prairie]

I will fight you

[alpine wraith]

alch stone is fine as 2nd trink but you want at least 1 good on use

[molten citrus]

i would 100% buy the Badge

[worn ivy]

Nerf outlaw and sin 20% than we are equal

[wide sonnet]

i see

[leaden prairie]

Clueless

[worn ivy]

Maybe

[molten citrus]

secret DMs

at the top of the pipeline

[leaden prairie]

No wae

[lucid jackal]

Sampling bias is real

Dude I cant wait for housing

Its literally the feature that will save wow

[keen dome]

Same, it's gonna rule

[round latch]

wow cannot be saved

[wide sonnet]

i dont wanna build a house tho

[round latch]

its not a game issue its a community one

[molten citrus]

i just hope they actually put in effort on replacing addons

[round latch]

get real

[molten citrus]

if they rip out addon functionality and their new stuff sucks i will quit

10000%

[round latch]

well uve been playing dh