wows timetable for that would just be way later ig
#subtlety
dusk stone
when swtor did this 'accessibility' bs what happened was they stripped half the complexity from classes and all of endgame pmuch died
swift tinsel
lol swotr died off because it was a half-baked game from the getgo
And went f2p after a year
Once you did the class stories, which were the best part of the game, the game was basically over until another half-baked operation launched
pliant topaz
in general terms of power budget of a spec. if a spec has a lot of utility, that sould come out of its power budget, if its immortal, that should come out of its power budget, stuff like that. unfortunately wow wipes their ass with basic design concepts and just buffs mages but thats why people ususally think a support spec that has a fuck ton of unique utility shouldnt be doing more dmaage than a pure dps spec with slose to 0 utility.
hazy breach
Tbf most of that utility is kinda pointless in raids
pliant topaz
eh, its still there, so in theory it should come out of soemwhere
but wow clearly doesnt abide by those
fiery pewter
Other games do this to varying degrees of extreme also. An extreme example would be like FF14, the caster classes with a battle rez have dog water DPS compared to the non battle rez casters. The physical ranged DPS do dog water dps because they can dps while moving at ranged, etc etc.
pliant topaz
its not about being extreme or not but in general there should be trade offs to keep games interesting and unique
which is also why they dug themselves in this dogshit world of raid buffs
wispy bolt
Yeah but buff mage
pliant topaz
because they realiezd their design is so dogshit that every tier, people would just bring like 14 of the same class
so they had to force things to be different
but it all comes from poor design
and youre bandage fixing things
worn ivy
i also stop play M+ no point no fun without subtlety beign dogshit
fiery pewter
I like raid buffs, a lot actually. But in party its a bit weird
pliant topaz
fair enough
fiery pewter
I just like the idea of certain classes bringing certain things
In a raid you have everyone (or basically everyone) anyways so it doesn't matter
But if you are a sub rogue with no shaman RIP
worn ivy
Today first time 18+ ML as Assa top dps 5.4mil overall and funny part is i dont even know what am i doing
so cba M+ anymore ill play it when sub is good
maybe next expansion
maybe next week
pliant topaz
I just like the idea of certain classes bringing certain things
thats kinda my point. they werent creative enough to design the specs so you would want them for themselves, either being specialized for different things, having different strenghts and weaknesses, etc.
so they made a bandage and said now u gotta bring this guy
fiery pewter
If they reduced the number raid buffs and spread it out so all classes bring something perhaps it wouldn't be as bad
But then you have thing like heroism and battle rez
pliant topaz
that woudl defeat the point of them then. their entire existance is so that youre forced to diversify your comp and bring a bunch of classes
fiery pewter
Can you stop making sense? I don't like holes in my arguments
pliant topaz
mb o7
fiery pewter
I never liked how they just removed scrolls, especially if they are intent with keeping it how it is
swift tinsel
fiery pewter
void ocean
tepid raven
@lilac stag
fiery pewter
Rogue is the only class I have where I basically don't have to worry about doing a lot of the M+ mechanics aside from interrupts, de enrage or stealthing. Feels nice being lazy, but im sure my healer hates it
void ocean
Yea... Interrupts...
fiery pewter
If Hunters can sleep the poison away, Rogues should be able to drink the poison away with Vial
void ocean
I mean sure, why not if, among 20 mobs in a pull, my main target appears to be casting 🤣
void ocean
I did swap targets as sub, but now since Im doing keys as assa, cbb
gritty knot
i just did +16 priory as sub and its impossible to keep up with people who know their shit -.-
brittle plinth
Looks like you did just fine
gritty knot
i mean also it was without shaman, warri, monk ye
gritty knot
ye and after 1st boss the tank just tanked those mobs inside the consecration because it seems he was used to play with ranges idk xD I was tilting superhard because I lost so much dmg there
681
teal prawn
chrome palm
I mean two meta casters with arcane int and chaos brand and pi are obvious gonna murder sub in a priory
But braunpyke damage
alpine wraith
arcane will do more but still yea
caster com`p
then sub as a passenger
although you did fine if key was timed
gritty knot
ye exactly. "passenger". That describes it perfectly in this comp 😄
chrome palm
To be fair rogue with priest is kinda troll
Doesn’t make as much sense if the healer isn’t a shammy
Because both rogue and priest are passengers
lilac stag
PI is very good on bleed build
haughty mural
alpine wraith
no talk about bleed here
void ocean
Every sub rogue remembers when he bled for the first time 🤣🤣🤣
fiery pewter
no talk about bleed here
So like Rupture doesn't exist to you?
void ocean
Rupture is purple 🤣
alpine wraith
yea rupture is just a passenger too
lilac stag
no talk about bleed here
Hemo coming back
lilac stag
So like Rupture doesn't exist to you?
That’s the dream
fiery pewter
Rupture replaced with an aura around us dealing shadow damage to all targets within range. We can be aura farming
void ocean
Hemo coming back
At first glance tho u wrote chemo
proper latch
Will we ever get buffs
void ocean
Was about to say sorry dude
warm marlin
Rupture replaced with an aura around us dealing shadow damage to all targets wit...
Not the stink aura
honest saddle
@vale pine the single target link in the corruption pin goes to 5 target.
solemn lance
Love to see bug fixes for lock, ret, and DK
solemn lance
At first glance tho u wrote chemo
We are basically the class on chemo right now
vestal escarp
if they make sin not ass to play next patch i'd even bargain to not see sub notes until next beta cycle
chrome palm
if they make sin not ass to play next patch i'd even bargain to not see sub note...
sin not ass
vestal escarp
in raid builds
formal helm
wait, we just got a 5% buff?
steel horizon
ivory quarry
5% seem like half of what we need, is it just me or..
young path
bright elk
5% we back?
young path
LFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lucid jackal
WE WOn
formal helm
5% seem like half of what we need, is it just me or..
I'll take anything at this point
vestal escarp
🩹
shut ridge
did Realz escape from the basement or what
formal helm
nah, he's probably still stuck there
shut ridge
only had time for a quick 5%
formal helm
bro caught a whiff of wifi
patent lichen
i feel like 5% isnt enough?
shut ridge
back to work on the 238945234789234th mage iteration
twin meadow
we're saved 
formal helm
swift tinsel
if anyone expected to shoot to top 5 dps that's omega cope
shut ridge
i will certainly take 5% but
warm marlin
I feel like assa is certainly still stronger in both raid and keys
swift tinsel
if they happened to throw a nice evisc buff on top of that I certainly wouldn't be mad
shut ridge
damage is already done i fear
short owl
were so back
warm marlin
but ig u cant really ask for more
swift tinsel
formal helm
5% is decent
swift tinsel
I knew I'd get to unironically use this some day
formal helm
at least we won't be dead fucking last
shut ridge
are you sure
formal helm
hey we'll be above aug at least
shut ridge
are you sure
lucid jackal
well aug just got nerfed so probs!
worthy relic
buff gives hype, hype gets more players, more players will get better parses
shut jay
we need 8% and 5% to evis, rupture and sectech
open vortex
might be above aug and feral now
shut ridge
not satisfied until they take that godforsaken spec out back for the old yeller treatment
open vortex
steps
warm marlin
sub is on the board again so another aura is certainly possible if it still underperforms 
bright elk
if we complain enough think theyll up the buff?
swift tinsel
^
shut jay
congrats, we're so back, 3rd from the bottom boys
formal helm
yeh
solemn lance
5% is 100k if you do 2 mil damage. Def not nothing
formal helm
smh
warm marlin
same
solemn lance
No where near sin but at least it's a step
left ledge
we'll see what that 5% does when other specs are still higher than that pre boosted gear
smoky niche
when is the 20% sec tech buff?
bright elk
#givesubkillingspree
shut jay
they need to make gloomblade baseline over backstab. out-dated ability needs to go
shut ridge
#givesubkillingspree
#begoneviledemon
lilac stag
Y'all are delusional
Why ya gotta doom on the doomers.
left ledge
they need to make gloomblade baseline over backstab. out-dated ability needs to ...
we tried asking for this over an expansion ago
lucid jackal
>Get buffed
>Complain
bright elk
lmao
left ledge
ok
lilac stag
likely best rogue spec in raid if they don’t break anything
shut jay
we dont take crumbs, we want the full sandwich
solemn lance
Generic 5% also feels like proof they have no idea how the spec works
indigo steppe
are we fucking back boys?
lilac stag
Nah BP buff said they don’t know how to fix it
lilac stag
this is just we ain’t got time to here ya go
swift tinsel
^
shut ridge
surely we possess the capability to appreciate the buff while carrying on the tradition of dooming
lilac stag
it’s fine
hazy breach
They aura buff when things are weak but they dont want to change any gameplay
Which is absolutely fine
short radish
LETS FUCKING GOOOOO
warm marlin
likely best rogue spec in raid if they don’t break anything
feel like assa is still better on most fights but sub will def won't be inting anymore
short radish
WE'RE AVERAGE
strange chasm
5% hopefully helps for keys maybe
swift tinsel
worst case they change stuff and its less fun
shut jay
wheres my 80% BP buff
strange chasm
but I think sin and outlaw and m+ demons rn
swift tinsel
which has happened
lilac stag
feel like assa is still better on most fights but sub will def won't be inting a...
Assa dmg is in execute. That window is shorter and shorter every week
quick pendant
Is 5% buff a decent boost for keys??
swift tinsel
its free damage
lucid jackal
Generic 5% also feels like proof they have no idea how the spec works
But like
quick pendant
I want to stay sub so badly lmao
lucid jackal
What do u want them to buff
short radish
wait we're still under 3mill on sprocket lmao
swift tinsel
I'd really only want to see evisc/sectech buffs
if we were to get anything targeted
formal helm
bros...for the keys majority of you are doing sub is perfectly fine
open vortex
dont change our gameplay, i think this version of sub is great
just need higher numbers thats all
lilac stag
@hazy breach where are the sims? 
open vortex
well except for ds, just not a fan
strange chasm
add 5% to the spreadsheet lmao
vestal escarp
X number + 5%
swift tinsel
tbh sims not being out yet made all my hair fall out
vestal escarp
sim done
strange chasm
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
lucid jackal
I'd really only want to see evisc/sectech buffs
sectec and evis account for over 50% of the specs damage
how much more do u want it to 
shut jay
who's hyped for the innevitable wowhead post 'Subtlety soars back to 3rd.'
short radish
we're still worse than aug though
plain quest
3rd of the rogue specs lmao
formal helm
who's hyped for the innevitable wowhead post 'Subtlety soars back to 3rd.'
you are delusional
lucid jackal
aug got nerfed
swift tinsel
sectec and evis account for over 50% of the specs damage
they're the biggest finishers for the finisher spec
swift tinsel
ofc they're going to be the majority
lucid jackal
aug isn't good
shut ridge
it can be worse
lucid jackal
Yeah my question is how much more do you want it to be
warm marlin
aug got nerfed
new 4set was still better than 2p+2p
lucid jackal
Evis is like 30%
warm marlin
aug didn't get nerfed
lilac stag
I’d like .1-.2 on the dance CDR so it’s not quite so tight
random hare
bros...for the keys majority of you are doing sub is perfectly fine
Sub isnt fine stop being cooked 
lilac stag
but we ride with an aura buff
shut jay
you are delusional
oh woops, I meant Subtlety sneaks back to 3rd.
vestal escarp
no way zeross dropped a truth bomb
solemn lance
Well. I am happiest that we have been recognized as spec in the game.
vestal escarp
for once
random hare
If u mean majority of keys anyone can time any key with you afk at the dungeon
solemn lance
We will not be forgotten!
vestal escarp
kind bluff
It's a start.
lilac stag
Sub isnt fine stop being cooked <:omegalul:585734084777476096> <:omegalul:585734...
I can only accept this if you post 10 boss dmg details pictures as proof
strange chasm
Sub isnt fine stop being cooked <:omegalul:585734084777476096> <:omegalul:585734...
i mean this helps for the keys you zone out and swap to sub
random hare
It does help alot yes
formal helm
you guys are actually cooked.
random hare
The buff is extremely good
strange chasm
wait there is that one dude doing 19s as sub only
random hare
It’ll help my grp 3 phase last boss rookery on 20
Cuz we always get him down to 17-19m hp
Idk if 5% is enough
Should be i hope
left ledge
no it is man
vestal escarp
targeted buffs to ross gameplay
shut jay
we need some juice to our energy regen rate. a pure injection
solemn lance
Line of magic dust
random hare
just go back to whatever hole you crawled out from
Sub is fine in +2 keys ur right
vestal escarp
we need some juice to our energy regen rate. a pure injection
it's a talent it's called shadowcraft pick it
shut ridge
Line of magic dust
please don't say dust near me thanks
vestal escarp
bro is accusing competition 
strange chasm
Sub is fine in +2 keys ur right
dont lie ur swapping and never playing ass in keys again
tell the truth
half comet
how much are the buffs
lucid jackal
5%
half comet
frank harness
warm marlin
wel ackshually it depends on what sub's current aura value is
vestal escarp
4.7%
random hare
dont lie ur swapping and never playing ass in keys again
Sin has the best dmg profile in the game
It’ll never be worse
solemn creek
vestal escarp
random hare
Dslice is where its at
hazy breach
Subtlety buffs!
https://www.wowhead.com/news/upcoming-class-tuning-with-the-weekly-reset-many-pve-and-pvp-changes-377006?utm_source=discord-webhook
-Subtlety
-All damage increased by 5%. Does not affect PvP combat.
Its very unlikely this has any impact on the best build, trinkets or enchants, so we just keep playing the same thing except now our spells do 5% more damage. This does not include damage procs or auto attacks so the overall buff is closer to ~4.6%, but still a very welcome additional. Its unlikely this will make Sub better than either Assa or Outlaw in keys but for raid its a possibility, and even if its not better its atleast significantly closer than it was before this. Happy eviscerating lads were so back 
random hare
Except
random hare
Sin dslice 
pallid inlet
I feel like me winning the lottery and meeting aliens is a possibility too
hazy breach
5% is a lot
pallid inlet
I miss s1 DF sub and s3 DF sub though
short radish
nah bwo dont toy with us
makes us best for gallywix
shut ridge
This is unlikely to make Subtlety the best spec in the entire game
I AM UNSUBBING
GN FOREVER
lucid jackal
R u guys awaer of what the term sampling bias is
bleak night
hazy breach
Sub logs are gonna go up by noticeably more than 5%
warm marlin
idk if you have looked recently but the top gallywix parses for sub are turbo degenerate
hazy breach
Just like aug went up like 12% by getting a 5% buff
short radish
mugzee will pull ahead as well
warm marlin
I wouldn't use them as a metric
vestal escarp
fuck i have to recraft shit
pallid inlet
Half of us here can’t read. Of course we don’t know what sampling bias is
shut ridge
idk if you have looked recently but the top gallywix parses for sub are turbo de...
yeah assa logs definitely not that
vestal escarp
and i even fumbled bone band in vault like last week
random hare
all top parses are turbo degenerate
How so
short radish
💯
hazy breach
As assa you just hit boss
pallid inlet
Zeross is just a degenerate that’s how
hazy breach
Unironically
random hare
Zeross is just a degenerate that’s how
?
vestal escarp
it just so happens there's stuff to spatter on right
dreamy pumice
Hey so I’ve been learning sub from outlaw and was wondering do we not like mastery into DR like my sims and my actual damage both blow
pallid inlet
I’m just kidding haha
warm depot
random hare
Hey so I’ve been learning sub from outlaw and was wondering do we not like maste...
Ye i tried hunter to learn warlock it didnt workout well for me
hazy breach
Hey so I’ve been learning sub from outlaw and was wondering do we not like maste...
No need to ever thing about the DR or anything, just sim your stuff 
dreamy pumice
Ye i tried hunter to learn warlock it didnt workout well for me
Didn’t try hard enough
hazy breach
If youre doing low damage i can guarantee you it has nothing to do with your stats
warm marlin
all top parses are turbo degenerate
not true
open vortex
for most of sub this tier it is. thinking gally oab stix rik
u do no add strat on oab gg parse
shut jay
Its funny that after all this time they haven't even attempted to tune Deathstalker for sub. I'm glad to commit to Trickster but crazy nothing was ever touched
kind bluff
I don't play like a degenerate, I'm a mechanic monkey and my parses are fine.
kind bluff
If you aren't parsing well it may be a you issue. Not an issue of being a degenerate.
pastel rampart
If youre doing low damage i can guarantee you it has nothing to do with your sta...
hello i am 42% haste 28% crit why my sectech not hit like mr hacher dino
warm marlin
u do no add strat on oab gg parse
my parse from weeks ago where we had 0 premium dynamite is still a 75
open vortex
that's not a top parse tho is what i was just referring to
warm marlin
well ye but with 13 more ilvl and raid buffs it would be
open vortex
a god amongst men
lofty lance
why 5% and not 10% wtf blizzard why
kind bluff
You can get top parses without being a degenerate.
pastel rampart
im happy for buff tho but id like to see stuff like sectech clones not falling through the ground on rookery 1st boss pls thx
kind bluff
Also eazmode, stop beating my parses every time I get them. You hoe.
lofty lance
is 5% good tho? im not good at math
short radish
Just like aug went up like 12% by getting a 5% buff
how does that happen btw? with 5% buff making it way more than 5% damage
short radish
is 5% good tho? im not good at math
yes its good
hazy breach
Because better people play it in better groups
And they figure out stuff that wasnt figured out before
hazy breach
Like numerically ingame the values only went up 5%
pastel rampart
sampling bias is a thing
sample bias deez
hazy breach
But the logs went up more
lofty lance
thats nice
shut ridge
if you cant parse like this
why are you airing me out like this wtf
hazy breach
Just like last expansion in aberrus where sub dropped like 4% on the overall charts when assa got buffed
short radish
i see
hazy breach
Now i dont think sub is as undercooked as aug was
So i doubt well be seeing that big difference, but a bit more than 5% is still to be expected
Just like arcane went from being unplayed to being the meta key spec with just a 4% buff
lofty lance
i dont believe we gonna see any more sub buffs for at least 4 months for some reason
😦
lofty lance
yea
random hare
5% is shit in keys
lofty lance
yea for sure
random hare
random hare
I can’t disagree
hazy breach
With 5% you could probably do some decent damage if you had your pulls optimized around you, but aint nobody gonna alter routes and optimize around somebody being decent
When other specs are good regardless of route
random hare
Burst doesnt even do shit
In m+
Its useless
It’ll stay useless even if u play around sub completely
lofty lance
u burst, ur numbers go up and seconds after u end up tank dps
random hare
Shit ass spec
lofty lance
sub is only good in 12 keys and lower
lofty lance
its ok new stamina belt will make the difference for 20
random hare
5% isn’t enough for last boss still
We’ll still 4 phase like every other grp unlucky
Might need to get full bis then i think it’ll be possible
We kept wiping at around 2-3%
hazy breach
Could probably pool some more sht
lofty lance
damn
random hare
I always pool but this time i took it to a whole new level with that boss to reach 2%
i pressed symbols for superchargers and never send dances
Only in amp
Still not good enough
pastel rampart
5% > 2% surely it works out 
lofty lance
u stacked 14 shadow techniques too?
random hare
Unfortunately theres no obliterate cannon trinket to nuke his ass or someshit
House of cards is quite underwhelming
lofty lance
if we had a trinket like transmitter
on this season
imagine 25k primary stat on burst
shut ridge
if we had a trinket like transmitter
random hare
Than house of cards
lofty lance
yee
shut ridge
pretty sure they explicitly confirmed no fated but i can't remember
jaunty heath
well they said 3 season expansions
i dont follow the story
but if the story aint finished
shut ridge
this game has a story?
lofty lance
what story
crystal bone
same lol
clever delta
stealthi said yeszedday that sub need 5% so here we go
clever delta
he was saying 5 yesterday
hazy breach
Ok maybe he toned it down
clever delta
i even whipped it out on caldruon today 😄 played sub after month or two 😄
its kinda funny that you still have the muscle memory for opener
hazy breach
Did you lose any akaari damage? 
hazy breach
Seems fine indeed
hazy breach
Playing demo on cauldron is truly something special 💀
clever delta
time to collect sub logs 😄
but dont have second trinket option sadly
what do i even play in raid on sub 5min fights
hazy breach
Pacemaker
clever delta
dont have mythic one
hazy breach
Idk just anything you have on mythic then, most things are about the same
neon frigate
Wuuut 5%!!
dire saddle
twilit phoenix
Are we so back?
hazy breach
Peasant type shit not already having 2 full sets smh my head
hazy breach
tribal blade
honestly doesn't change much for me since we just killed gally, and reclear is kinda w/e
twilit phoenix
Full recraft on reset
Real or memeing?
strange chasm
Will be fun to just play sub lol
tribal blade
but good to see they're finally making sub not shit
strange chasm
And not ass
tribal blade
i literally just race changed to nelf and recrafted all my gear for sin haha
lucid jackal
Real or memeing?
Real
hazy breach
i literally just race changed to nelf and recrafted all my gear for sin haha
Good then you can check if melding with a macro procs tfd
plush roost
We got 5%!
tribal blade
Good then you can check if melding with a macro procs tfd <:garf:132017303274389...
TRUEEE
would it be the same macro as vanish
just change vanish to meld?
hazy breach
Ye
tribal blade
ok cool
shut ridge
tribal blade
can prob test it on training dummies in a bit
hazy breach
Yes
It bugs out because your vanish buff gets dropped at the same time as tfd starts counting, so it doesnt realize that youre in combat
And keeps on ticking even if you keep hitting
since storm has a very very slight delay from the moment you press it until the moment it does damage
clever delta
alright
hazy breach
Does not work if you have dance up or youre in a boss fight
clever delta
btw robot want me to play keys in singhle target, that must be bait or
yeah i read the pin was just wondering how it works
hazy breach
I aint about that nelf life either way
I like big burst and i cannot lie
So maghar i will remain
tribal blade
using nelf in a 17 flood i just timed
getting a few restealths during add packs
was incredible
clever delta
cant wait tilt myself about losing stacks
lilac stag
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/444580964237312000/1171200610608087071/...
I miss him
boreal finch
How far behind were we? Does 5% put us above assa in raid?
clever delta
we were close on some bosses
and when fights getting shorter its getting closer naturally aswell
heady helm
wait where it the sub buff?
heady helm
## Subtlety buffs!
<https://www.wowhead.com/news/upcoming-class-tuning-with-the-...
its not enough to bring it back lmao
random hare
wait where it the sub buff?
I wanna tell you where but u might get mad
heady helm
lol ive learned by now its in the pins
lucid jackal
Reminder that aug got a 5% buff and ended up being 12% stronger the following week on logs
random hare
That means sub got a 12% buff 
clever delta
only diff that nobody will play szv abyway
twilit phoenix
Compensatory sub nerfs when?
random hare
We got a nerf in prepatch because we were 30% stronger than everything in prepatch rmemeber?
twilit phoenix
vestal escarp
Yeah at the tier set... Like i said...
twilit phoenix
We got a nerf in prepatch because we were 30% stronger than everything in prepat...
using prepatch/preason data for tuning is so fucking based
twilit phoenix
Yeah at the tier set... Like i said...
i think having transmitter was a huge part of it, too. our trinket power spike was pretty negligible going from transmitter to HOC
i feel like other classes got bigger bumps with their trinkets
twilit phoenix
sub had MH craft, transmitter, and a good tier set week one
of course it was gonna look good
vestal escarp
Losing transmitter was big yeah
random hare
We had a cock inside of a good pussy in s1 now we got it in a hot oven where we just got our cock fried because it was well cooked in prepatch
vestal escarp
I actually started doing less dmg when i equipped hc hoc
twilit phoenix
We had a cock inside of a good pussy in s1 now we got it in a hot oven where we ...
hoary lotus
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vestal escarp
Just be happy and wishful to go into 11.2 with a 5% more
lucid jackal
whats wrong with it
clever delta
dosnt feel good to play
twilit phoenix
the gear grinder one?
vestal escarp
It's high cd right?
twilit phoenix
unironically what are the other options rn
HoC + what else
sussy drink got outscaled, right?
clever delta
mythic kezan and heroic pace
lucid jackal
the shaker
twilit phoenix
lucid jackal
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/noGkVHFUaxZVigrSEgNJxB scuffed sub with a bunch of crafted items
Look at the shaker
bad gems too
but u get the idea
twilit phoenix
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/noGkVHFUaxZVigrSEgNJxB scuffed sub with a...
is that gonna be your next dinar purchase?
lucid jackal
My first 
twilit phoenix
My first <:PEPW:689045015112187948>
yeah your drop RNG was insane
jastors, hoc, and kezan
big vaults
lucid jackal
my RNG was bad all season, i got blessed on farm
twilit phoenix
i remember bro
bright elk
if im simming about 2.5m as assa and I sim sub for like 2.53 or something, is that reliable or are sim comparisons only relevant within the same spec?
clever delta
same
bright sundial
omg wtf is this real?
bright sundial
damn already kinda early
dusk stone
Holy hell we did it, we will still massively suck but we did it
Too bad we will still be gapped by 5x that of evoker
winter junco
omg wtf is this real?
lilac stag
@tribal blade OAB dead. Sub Buff. Ring Rizz.
tribal blade
<@146180393941336064> OAB dead. Sub Buff. Ring Rizz.
oh shit
lilac stag
Time to buy HoC
tribal blade
+1 luck, that's crazy
lilac stag
we hoping for aug 5% where it's 12% on wcl
round latch
yeah F aug man
disgusting
if i could delete the class by pressing a button ild spam that mfk@r
lucid jackal
its time to buy the zees thug hotline
dusk stone
If you did 2.5 on a boss in keys, this would mean you are now doing 2.625
bright sundial
what a great day both my specs get buffed, super nice day
cosmic viper
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/uf4EEkvGiAMoZLzvhmSWM5
its sub time baby
bright elk
I’ve missed the 1.5 min life
merry agate
You'll press backstab and you'll be happy!
Slap a 5% on it and be done but i'll take it 🙏
dusk stone
Well if the sub dev is watching ty
atomic girder
Is it recraft szn
pearl swan
shut ridge
Well if the sub dev is watching ty
chained to the radiator in the basement in Irvine, CA
plush roost
Idk if sub will be better than assa in push keys anyway, but I'd love to be wrong
The swap sub tech will go hard af now tho
tribal blade
Idk if sub will be better than assa in push keys anyway, but I'd love to be wron...
highly doubt it
plush roost
Rookery 20 looks more and more doable by the day
tribal blade
but yeah the swap out tech for rookery i might do now
plush roost
Truth
Played sub in raid this reclear
I forgot what i had been missing for so long
grave shore
lost tundra
civic lava
Bought Mythic signet with dinar, where is my amazon refund policy ?
fiery pewter
Reverse that coffin! We are so back
oak grotto
Is sub still far behind in comparision to the other Rogue specs, even with the +5%?
worn ivy
oak grotto
Is sub the worst spec in m+ nowadays
worn ivy
night rune
Is sub the worst spec in m+ nowadays
Yes, still bad aoe
next pulsar
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
next pulsar
Is it worth respec to sub for raid after buffs?
short radish
lmao no
lucid jackal
If u want to it is!
wicked urchin
hell fucking yeah we're back
chrome palm
if you didnt want to play sub beforehand you probably just stay sin
bright elk
I’m excited to try sub again and see how it does, it’s much more fun than assa imo
vale pine
<@194804407706189824> the single target link in the corruption pin goes to 5 tar...
moment, ill check
native zodiac
Cant to hit vexxie on the dmg amp on wed 
vale pine
<@194804407706189824> my magic ball ws right
5% buff is 5% buff
its still less than assassiantion recived but we take it
let me quick check
chrome palm
Cant to hit vexxie on the dmg amp on wed <:kreygasm:585866616227627064>
gonna send the bikes asap to grief 2 min classes
mechanics god
stoic flower
stoked for sub buffs, but i guess for mug'zee i should still run assa hey? 😦
short radish
yes but also do whatever is most fun for you
stoic flower
ya i just wish this did this earlier in the season
vale pine
Estimate of the buff, sim:
profileset."buff"+="override.spell_data=effect.191060.base_value=15"```
<https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/iaEtzDYtuHwQUzoC63ZFbY>
so ye 4% buff
its a buff
brisk onyx
ashen dock
Ey yo. I see a lot of blue posts this morning
With the word tuning
NOW I don’t know wanna get excited
alpine wraith
see i knew blizz would buff sub for my birthday
vale pine
so essentially, thats the buff
vale pine
haha^^
so we are not dead last anymore
but not close to outlaw/sin
would need another 3-4% buff to be on par with assassiantion
tho we take it, a buff is a buff
haughty rose
looks promising but i feel like this leaves us (lower)mid table for a long time. not sure if blizzard operates like that but i can imagine they won't buff us again for a long time
vale pine
its possible i missed a spell, so maybe its a bit more than in the sim above
but even if we assume 0.5% more, we are still 2-3% off
dusk stone
not enough for M+
someone else gets it finally
when we are doing 4 million overall in cinderbrew and outlaw is doing 6 million
200k will not make up that difference
vale pine
there is the perception tho, that performance of a less played spec is statistical worse
so i am not sure if thats the case too
dusk stone
what do you think fuu, how much higher does 5% push us up in keys?
rocky ocean
200k will not make up that difference
dat boss damage tho
spark tusk
nani 2 sub rogues!
There's one row in the list per akari soul they keep breaking containment
alpine wraith
1 akaari is homeless
dusk stone
i still argue we need like 15% more to be competitive in raid
vale pine
what do you think fuu, how much higher does 5% push us up in keys?
nothing changes
dusk stone
30% or more in keys
alpine wraith
being in the middle is not that bad
short radish
yeah
dusk stone
aura buffs are fine for raid, we need targetted changes for m+
vale pine
it just means people can play sub
short radish
targetted change for m+ will require reworks
vale pine
and not be flamed for it
dusk stone
no
vale pine
so its a win
dusk stone
just buff evis and black powder and we're fine in m+
short radish
please stop suggesting buff black powder
jaunty heath
Don’t buff black powder please
short radish
i do not want to play deathstalker
vale pine
bp would need per target scaling if you want to buff it more
short radish
in any form of content
dusk stone
what im saying is there are simple solutions, not needed reworks if we are talking this patch
jaunty heath
bp would need per target scaling if you want to buff it more
This sure
short radish
what im saying is there are simple solutions, not needed reworks if we are talki...
simple solutions outside of flat % buffs
are never simple
and also
if evis and bp get buffed
dusk stone
what is the issue with just buffing bp
short radish
then deathstalker will be the play
dusk stone
all i see is it makes us more like ret paladins
short radish
and nobody here wants to play deathstalker
jaunty heath
what is the issue with just buffing bp
I don’t wanna play deathstalker and I don’t want to bp in st
dusk stone
so don't?
jaunty heath
hollow cobalt
5% buff, yay !
vale pine
a buff is a buff, so thats good
zenith prism
see i knew blizz would buff sub for my birthday
happy 🎂 man (in advance)
dusk stone
i see the problem and i get it
vale pine
happy birthday!
left flame
What is the logic of shadow step on mythic gally the shit teleports me in random ass places
jaunty heath
Theres no Point
alpine wraith
it is the 26th
dusk stone
but there's certaintly overthinking that is going on about it
vale pine
tbh i mean the buff at least make us somewhat competitive
short radish
What is the logic of shadow step on mythic gally the shit teleports me in random...
shits fucked, tp to an ally
alpine wraith
so still some days but they did it in advance
vale pine
so again, its a win
vale pine
i don't expect more changes/buffs
short radish
At least you don’t get ported outside the arena anymore
i shadowstepped to a warrior who was mid leap
then my screen just turned black
jaunty heath
It only works when wowhead posts random ass chart and we are under the support spec
dusk stone
and fuus article as well
vale pine
haha, wowhead comment section
dusk stone
and stuff we say in here, it all matters
short radish
and stuff we say in here, it all matters
it really doesnt
jaunty heath
In reality I doubt anything in here matters A TON
short radish
this was a great one
jaunty heath
Sure to some degree maybe
But also we just got buffed so not really a lot to complain
alpine wraith
haha, wowhead comment section
assasination can never be buffed enough!
jaunty heath
For today
dusk stone
if you had a very simple and easy to implement solution the devs overlooked
cloud rover
WE DID IT BOYS AND GIRLS
dusk stone
in theory at least
jaunty heath
if you had a very simple and easy to implement solution the devs overlooked
Listen people have said to stop splitting our damage in a million different things for ages now
Simple right?
dusk stone
buffing BP isn't a good change, so what would actually make us competitive in raid and keys without us then causing a problem
i havent been around long enough to know that stuff for sure, other people here have tho
currently we have a problem if we're buffed in raid to be competitive, im somewhat sure that we'd be broken in keys
short radish
remove FW
Make sectech not have a clone aspect
dusk stone
like im saying have liked a list of proposed stuff in a serious way that isn't too much
jaunty heath
I don’t think sub has a place in current m+ unless they do some absurd numbers so people HAVE to pull around you
dusk stone
if it does nothing so what
jaunty heath
Burst is just not that great in keys
vale pine
our burst damage is too low for doing no damage outside of burst
but thats a problem of power creep
livid rapids
Depends what you want to be considered "competitive", Fuu mentioned that another 2-3% overall will make us on par with Assassination. Typically Sub rogue only gets % overall buffs rather than any niches.
dusk stone
i mean what if we did udhk burst numbers before the nerfs
short radish
blizzard also needs to properly cap aoe
vale pine
i mean we will see
short radish
it's stupid that 95% of classes/abilities are capped aoe
dusk stone
but again im not really qualified to come up with these ideas, dont understand the tc behind it all
vale pine
maybe we get more sub players
vale pine
and it will be higher than my estimate
we are closer to sin/outlaw
i don't think they wanted people to switch specs
dusk stone
it'll be too much time before we get new players, thats like patches away :/
vale pine
like if you look back to DF
dusk stone
i've paid attention every time i've seen a sub in raid or in keys, its really bad
vale pine
the assassination buffs every time it was bad ended up putting it at least 3% ahead of others ^^
so people had a incentive to switch
livid rapids
But anything outside of numbers, there are a few elements of the class design that creates awkward learninng curves. I saw some comment about people missing invigorating dust, even tho the skill to use that is very heavily skewed to higher tiered players, making balancing a nightmare
vale pine
this buff is more to make us not that far off
which is perfectly fine, just a very diffrent way to buff a spec
dusk stone
didnt like noone play arcane before they buffed it to competitive levels?
vale pine
also makes sense considering they want to make assassination the rogue spec you choose by default
livid rapids
didnt like noone play arcane before they buffed it to competitive levels?
people played it, they have slowly simplified it over the years if i recalled
sterile kiln
this buff is great for the later bosses in raid
silent ruin
Sub is back ?
sterile kiln
dusk stone
2 or 3% diffrences are not big
do you have any idea what they could change that would put us like in the middle of the pack for raid and keys? any thoughts
livid rapids
I may also ad that although the buff is great, Dps in some case does not seem to be the differentiating factor to Cutting edge at this point of the tier, its mechs. So the buffs are just to make us look not like total ass
I have seen people time +18/19 as a sub rogue
vale pine
do you have any idea what they could change that would put us like in the middle...
the change kind of puts us middle of the pack
dusk stone
for raid, not for keys though
livid rapids
high end keys are viable, but there will always be gatekeeping
vale pine
sub was not bad for keys
its just a lot harder to make work
because you depend a lot more on good pulls
alpine wraith
you need more buffs to not have clown dmg
vale pine
nothing rly changes
alpine wraith
it is that simple
dusk stone
am i wrong is understanding our peak is like 4.5 on the overall of like cinderbrew
im seeing outlaws do like 6 overall
vale pine
also blizz does not care about m+ balance
vale pine
they tune around raid
left ledge
I was called delusional for saying the 5% buff was dogshit
alpine wraith
if even top players say sub does not perform and it is real
left ledge
I need to see where sub ends up on logs
dusk stone
well yeah, but you cant tune something in raid if it breaks m+ which is part of our problem for sure
left ledge
We will move one or two spots from the bottom
faint basalt
I think main problem for sub on this season is tier set.
have 0 stacks - negative damage
have 8 stacks - still zero dmg.
when you checking other classes-specs for their tier set, they are gods even with bad procs
short radish
I was called delusional for saying the 5% buff was dogshit
nah 5% will put us middle of the pack
its enough
left ledge
Our tier shouldn’t have been nerfed
left ledge
nah 5% will put us middle of the pack
5% would put us middle of the pack compared to specs pre boost ilvl
Oop
alpine wraith
we will still be kinda middle of the pack
now void ritual might be better a biit
than other corruptions too
but unlikely
molten citrus
if even top players say sub does not perform and it is real
Are these top players in the room with us? (They are not real)
alpine wraith
if it was 0.4% behind in st
alpine wraith
Are these top players in the room with us? (They are not real)
when im a top player the spec needs god
left ledge
I’ve jumped ship until this spec gets anything real
left ledge
5% aura buff can suck on some nuts
dusk stone
didnt aug get two 15%'s?
alpine wraith
it is because better players may play the spec
alpine wraith
so now we wait for the chinese parse runs
left ledge
Aug was also literally never played
alpine wraith
to make sub be great again
left ledge
Sub was still played by some people
alpine wraith
big cdr moment
vale pine
Remmeber when aug got a 5% buff and ended up 12% better on wcl afterwards
was it because of the tier set they now nerf?
lucid jackal
alpine wraith
we are not last pog
dusk stone
so, what is our actual position in the hierarchy when it comes to keys
left ledge
Sub needs to be finished
alpine wraith
so yea might as well be assa/outlaw
alpine wraith
even on last boss rookery and things like that
left flame
WTB rogue dev
alpine wraith
you could invite something like WW
left ledge
Idk why we have talents like tornado and goremaw
alpine wraith
that also buffs phys dmg
molten citrus
You guys really keep the meme alive
merry agate
Yeah tier just feels underwhelming as fuck
alpine wraith
because arcane is kinda a shoe in
lucid jackal
Tornado saw play for years
vale pine
I think SL s1 was the clearest example of diffrent tuning strategies
alpine wraith
i mean tier got the 80% nerf
left ledge
Tornado saw play for years
I mean post rework
alpine wraith
or smth like that
molten citrus
Only wow players can get bugged and still complain
vale pine
where assassiantion was initially like we are now behind
molten citrus
subtle jay
giga 5% buff hype here?
vale pine
and then got buffed multiple times
lucid jackal
giga 5% buff hype here?
No, we got buffed so I'm angry
vale pine
to the point it was the only played spec
subtle jay
No, we got buffed so I'm angry
xd
left ledge
Tornado has been complete dogshit post rework
vale pine
which is not what we see with the sub buffs
the sub buffs are just to make us closer to sin/outlaw
which is a positive
just not the same strategy of balancing
molten citrus
Tornado has been complete dogshit post rework
Rework?
left ledge
vale pine
the idea of the buff is not to make more people play sub
left ledge
The season 3 df rework
lucid jackal
wasn't tornado good on tindral?
vale pine
it is to make the remaining sub players happy
left ledge
In which our spec didn’t get completed
left ledge
wasn't tornado good on tindral?
What
cloud rover
wasn't tornado good on tindral?
yes
alpine wraith
tornado was decent on some places yea
vale pine
wasn't tornado good on tindral?
tornado was good before DF mid xpac rework
alpine wraith
but it was annoying
molten citrus
The season 3 df rework
Idk if I’d call anything we’ve gotten in recent years a rework
left ledge
Idk if I’d call anything we’ve gotten in recent years a rework <:kekdog:90720703...
I mean sub did get a rework
Mini rework
vale pine
so tornado does not fit anymore to the design space
left ledge
Blades got turned into a real cd
lucid jackal
doesn't look "worthless since the rework" to me
sullen hare
so tornado does not fit anymore to the design space
Good, fuck Tornado
lucid jackal
Seems like it's just bad this tier
dusk stone
i still think coming up with ideas is a better idea than just saying it wont happen and give up tbh
lucid jackal
What are u on abt?
left ledge
We don’t need to cherry pick ONE situation
leaden plover
Foreverragebait🤣
lucid jackal
What about fyrak too
Seems to be played here too
Doesn't seem that worthless to me
vale pine
fyrak was pre shadowcraft
lucid jackal
livid rapids
I think from my perspective, the buffs have come late, which has been frustrating. 5% is great and all to make me not leave the spec, but doesnt and shouldn't leave Sub mains to be content with the current state of the class.