subtlety

[swift tinsel]

They know me so well

[alpine wraith]

ehehe

ehehe

[fiery pewter]

Yeah some of these tier sets are bonkers compared to others

Fire Mage is yuge

[random hare]

SUB CANDLE KING DPS

[delicate wind]

Sad that our article went out. Numbers are there. No mention of tuning. No mention of rework in the next patch.

[crystal bone]

1.8m without shaman

[swift tinsel]

No rework plz

Only buffs

[hazy breach]

I dont think 5% of 2.5M is 700k

[random hare]

+19 had to feint on cd unluck

[fiery pewter]

Blizzard is usually stubborn and like to make you wait

[wide kernel]

should be higher with new gear no?

or was it bad cds

also gross there is no warrior or monk

[wide kernel]

any idea why i'm not getting catch up sparks? You're suppose to get it from pinnacle caches right? i didnt do titan disc quest last week and nada today on it

[wicked urchin]

What corruption are we using for now if echoing void is bugged?

just twilight dev?

[lilac stag]

Sims in pins

[open vortex]

Echoing void is bugged?

[alpine wraith]

how is it bugged

[hazy breach]

Its not proccing of most rogue abilities apparently

[open vortex]

grok why does blizzard hate us

[hazy breach]

Some other classes too

So gushing for ST and void ritual for anything else typically

But presumably its gonna get fixed soon

[open vortex]

[hazy breach]

Theyre pissweak anyway

Doesnt matter much

[bleak night]

i give it about 40% chance it gets fixed

just go twilight dev for funny beam

[hazy breach]

Beam doesnt even do funny damage anymore

So its

[bleak night]

yeah but you can still give old people ptsd

[warm depot]

YOU CANT BE SCOTT youre dave!!!

[bleak night]

we are all dave on this blessed day

[gritty knot]

Maybe each one of us should open a ticket with a link to Fuu's wowhead article. Chances are high someone will read it since there will be like 10 tickets opened in total 👍

[alpine wraith]

i think im on the ignore list

im still reporting goremaw not working with nimble

just for giggles sometimes in PTRs

[gritty knot]

100% ur blacklisted for that. How dare u

Ur propably listed as "the goremaw guy"

[swift tinsel]

We…are Dave

[wide kernel]

thanks ill legit probably do this

been posting on reddit about state of sub as well

[gritty knot]

https://tenor.com/view/michael-jackson-mj-they-dont-really-care-about-us-they-dont-care-dont-care-gif-4996740

[worn ivy]

No changes ?

[swift tinsel]

Not even one

[worn ivy]

Gl with dogshit game

Im out.

[hazy breach]

They always announce class tuning way in advance of reset

Expecting it on any random tuesday is never gonna end well

[shrewd lantern]

Devs are like, sin is good

class is fine

[pliant topaz]

lmk when you actually quit. we grind better games o7

im 3 wins off of GM, then we go challenger surely

[worn ivy]

Any other good game to play ?

[pliant topaz]

well if youre asking me, litearlly anything else

but idk, ive been grinding leaue, trying to go for challenger this year

[hazy breach]

@worthy relic @half remnant One way to bug TFD quite consistently (atleast on dummies) is to use it right after a sectech, however you need to not be in dance

[vestal escarp]

So sectech into dance cast?

Ala dfa spamming dance midair

[hazy breach]

No, more like using your vanish with a non-danced sectech

[graceful osprey]

I’m still coping for 11.2, surely blizzard will have updates, surely

[worthy relic]

Hmmn

How about sending vanish after a tfd dance in cds? Like u can bearly send a 2nd sectech with tfd and shb

If u press vanish before ur second dance does it work?

[hazy breach]

you cant macro vanish and dance

[worthy relic]

Thinking about it what could be happening is somethi g external to you putting you in combat (ie sectech clone) and that not triggering the stop tfd countdown. Then since u are already in combat is bypasses after

Could also be why it works so much in rook, but never when u specswap, it could be the buff u get after 1rst boss putting u in combat before u yourself do something

[hazy breach]

Like you have to vanish after sectech and then wait for tfd to start ticking before you dance, which takes a bit

[worthy relic]

Does tfd start ticking before or after clone hit?

[hazy breach]

So its quite rough to do it during cds, atleast with how im doing it right now, maybe theres a way to macro it to make it easier

Its like 0.2-0.3s after you vanish

[worthy relic]

Ok so before clones

[hazy breach]

I mean its not gonna be possible to get tfd on your second dance in cds

[worthy relic]

not unless u can proc it before, and get it to start ticking before ur cds

[hazy breach]

Since you cant start the timer with tfd or dance already active

[worthy relic]

if u find a replacement for sectech u could tho

like make it start ticking then send dance after, keeps ticking and u got it for second one

[hazy breach]

But its never gonna start ticking before you dance

Because you already have it

[worthy relic]

i mean if u dont

lets say u dont have it, chainpull/second set of cds/ whatever

u could technicly proc it to start counting, and then go into cds

just need a replacement for secret

[hazy breach]

Ye sure but its probably just easier to use it earlier for the first dance in cds

[worthy relic]

are there any other ways to proc dmg that is not counted to urself? like sectech pets

[hazy breach]

Maybe corruptions

But im eu so cant check

[worthy relic]

sub season confirmed (?

[hazy breach]

I mean it still doesnt work on bosses right

It wasnt too hard to do sectech > vanish > dance if i macroed sectech and vanish together, but again it doesnt work while in dance so its not really great either way during cds

[worthy relic]

wonder why it doesnt work while in dance

[hazy breach]

Probably something to do with you already being in stealth

So vanish gets confused and doesnt insta leave combat or something

[worthy relic]

oh its just tfd

[wide kernel]

Do we have any idea how sub will be in legion remix?

[worthy relic]

it doesnt start counting untill dance ends

even out of combat

[worthy relic]

ya, if i chain 2 dances out of combat it doesnt start till after both end

[hazy breach]

Oh ye

Makes more sense

Macroing sectech>vanish made it way easier

It starts immediately for some reason then

[worthy relic]

oh true

wtb vanish cdr LOL

it failed with the macro trying to cast it at the end of dance

it doesnt start right as dance ends

[hazy breach]

Shits just too jank

[worthy relic]

i mean, we are asking tfd to be predictable

idk if there was ever a talent or ability as unpredictable as this

maybe dfa

btw its compleatly possible to do flag > sectech > random shit for 5 sec > blades and dance

getting 2 sectech in dances and towards the end of flag and getting ur tfd dance as second dance

idk if its worth it, but its possible

[hazy breach]

Doesnt seem worth it at first glance but

[short radish]

wait

is this cursed tfd vanish tech in actual combat?

[worthy relic]

yes

[short radish]

i hate this timeline

please buff us blizzard

[worthy relic]

well target dummies

[hazy breach]

Presumably works on non-bosses in keys too

[worthy relic]

btw works with coup too @hazy breach

seems to be any delayed attack tbh

[hazy breach]

So mid coup?

[worthy relic]

coup > vanish

wait for 2nd hit

[hazy breach]

Thats probably way easier

[worthy relic]

can backstab after and keeps counting

[hazy breach]

BP and storm should work too then if you have a macro right

Since they have very very short travel times

[worthy relic]

gonna test

[hazy breach]

EU servers went down so i cant right now

Probably heading to bed

[worthy relic]

omg

that works perfectly

[kind bluff]

is echoing void bugged?

[indigo steppe]

https://tenor.com/view/john-travolta-well-where-is-it-looking-for-something-gif-5291661

where's my sub m+ homies at

getting *s now lol

everyone switched to assa ?

[hazy breach]

Mostly ye

Waiting for a numbers buff really

Somehow dodged the two previous tuning passes despite being lower on the statistics than others who got buffs

It is what it is

[indigo steppe]

yeah its annoying

[crisp lion]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[indigo steppe]

I think it kinda makes sense that we do less damage in raid because we have flexibility for add switching way more than assa

but like

less than aug

is crazy

!!

[worn ivy]

Cya next expansion bois

it always same we get to play our spec 1-2 weeks in to season than its ETA GG

[steel sierra]

I see a lot of comments from people saying echoing void was fixed, but my last 3 pulls on M Mugzee, i'm averaging 0.4 percent dps on a 5-6 minute pull. Is that normal for the lesser corruption?

[hexed sluice]

damn almost got 3 mask run done, alleria at 1%

[wide kernel]

There were only 14 [16] sub keys?

[indigo steppe]

Apparently! Everyone's playing assa haha

I still like playing sub if I can get a shaman in my group and we need some boss dmg

[wide kernel]

Dear lord if I can find a reliable team I will be the only sub representing 16s soon

Is there a WA package that specifically tracks FF, escalating blade stacks, stored CP, and maybe other niche things?

[warm marlin]

I know zac pack does

[short radish]

luxthos does

but some ppl hate luxthos

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[wide kernel]

I'll check it out thanks

It would be nice to track set bonus stacks as well

[hollow python]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hGWWqfcA63fEvu3UW3a3fz
doesnt quite match with st sim

[short radish]

i think i had to steal TFD from another pack though

[lilac stag]

Just make it a border trigger on your dance WA

[wide kernel]

What dance WA

[sullen hare]

I think what scath meant was to get or make a weak aura to put a frame glow on your shadow dance spell icon when you have the buff

[steel sierra]

Just killed M Mugzee. Total dmg on a 6 minute fight, 96 percent parse.

This shit sucks

[tribal blade]

echoing void is underperforming atm

[brisk onyx]

Just go gushing or twilight

[stoic sphinx]

This is already outdated

They pushed a hotfix that mostly fixed it but for some specs it’s still not quite there but I think it’s mostly for havoc due to channeled spells

So not perfect but not totally broken

[short radish]

so

its not quite fixed

[bleak night]

if its not bugged its just dogshit

so

twilight dev for beam gaming

as was foretold

[magic fog]

May I ask, Ive got both craft daggers at 681. in the vault is „Shadowskean of the Colossus“ (mythic track) - should I pick it?

[shrewd lantern]

mh ilvl is king

you take even if stats arent “ideal”

[magic fog]

I thought so, but wasn’t sure. Thank you!

Stats are mastery and versa - so even that is good.
But BiS List suggests Riks daggers.

[shrewd lantern]

margin of error

rik’s dagger is more attainable since it drops from an early boss

if you raid mythic

[short radish]

ignore bis lists for the most part

they are a "target" to work towards

but its not like everything not that is terrible

also as always sim yourself

[hoary lotus]

is twilight dev just busted on sub or

[summer badge]

Noob question, House and Seaforium are the best trinkets?

[short radish]

sorta yeah

house 100%

kezan is better on 5min+ fights

mugzee trinket also not bad

your 2nd trinket spot is kinda whatever

[summer badge]

Currently running house and suspious drink

[short radish]

good enough

you can run raidbots

to see difference in dps

between trinkets

and you'll find it's like sub .5% or something i think

[summer badge]

How much mastery is to much, wheni swap a ring i go from 105% to like 85%

[short radish]

whenever raidbots tells you that it is

[winter elbow]

is it? void sims slighty better than dev for me. +71k dps.

[tall girder]

Wooooo fimb

[winter elbow]

oh greater is 71k - only lesser for 3 weeks lul

[short radish]

Woooooo Jontic

[summer badge]

https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com/en-us/character/us/stormrage/scànt/

[tall girder]

Surely sub buff soon

[short radish]

any year now

[tall girder]

I'm gonna be a qualified tradesmen before sub buffs

[short radish]

[tall girder]

Or I kill black mage on maple

[upbeat escarp]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[summer badge]

I linked my armory, any suggestions on what to change

[vale pine]

how is the visioning going?

[bleak night]

ask again in 3 weeks

[vale pine]

haha, fair

[wet lava]

Are the visions avtuaky time gated for 3 weeks? That's fried

[alpine wraith]

well you can get half the power now kinda`in the lesser enchant

then 3 weeks you get the greater

kinda ass tbh

[full lagoon]

why 3 weeks

im confused

when did we get that info

[alpine wraith]

seems to be from ptr

i didnt check tbh

[spark tusk]

It’s utterly ridiculous, there is zero (real) reason to time gate it

[cloud rover]

Especially when these deactivate after S2

[spark tusk]

Just let people grind out the tree

Why does it matter this far into the season

[haughty rose]

Wheres my bad luck protection from Mythic Track Set pieces in M+ vault

So far only my shoulder is mythic track bomboclaat

And fuck it imma replace the circlet ring with a 681 craft

ez ilv

[spark tusk]

If the robot says so, sure. Hell, even if the robot doesn’t say so.

More stam that way too

[haughty rose]

robot said +5k in dungeon slice

good enough for me

[alpine wraith]

for me circe is bis

cant take it off ayyy

[haughty rose]

theres nothing to do already. at least once i finished the weekly grind
no upgrades, no reason to farm. nothing

well i could try to pug mythic LoU

[alpine wraith]

well MMOs are like this nowadays

they are not grindy

it scares the normal people

but it also has tons of content that you can do just maybe you dont enjoy those

[haughty rose]

i already have invincible which was the only rare mount i really care about

and also i don't have alts i enjoy playing. so far i only have a DK, Hunter and War on max level which i don't enjoy playing lol

any class/spec i'll most likely enjoy as Sub Main?

don't mention healers i already have enough grey hair

[keen dome]

Today is blessed

[haughty rose]

right after i complained about not getting any mythic track set items

you are an evil person

[keen dome]

Hehehe

[worn ivy]

This game is cooked no point playing it anymore 0 fun + unfair with class spec balancing.

[keen dome]

You could try pet battles

[worn ivy]

Probably is more unfair than pay to win games

[keen dome]

I don't think so

[haughty rose]

can you use murlocs?

[keen dome]

Yes

[haughty rose]

then i might try it

"i choose you waterthing"
"ohraghoraho"

[keen dome]

You can also have bees

[stoic locust]

Havoc might be fun, it's melee, high APM cooldown based spec with short CDs and a big one

Big movement too

Replied to the wrong message, thought it was 1 big message lol

[worn ivy]

Remove logs remove all addons remove details or any kind of meter in game suddenly game becomes 100% more fun

[stoic locust]

As it is now? No

[worn ivy]

Wow cannot be competetive game

Never was

They should stop acting

[stoic locust]

Yes it can, and it is

There will be competition in every game where you can compare your performance against others, every game can be "competitive"

[keen dome]

I also think it's worth keeping in mind that people at the competitive edge are such a teeny tiny minority that it is incredibly unlikely they balance or design around them ever. For the majority, it is absolutely fine. I would like a buff to sub, but Sub is fine for most content most people are doing.

[stoic locust]

I still can't believe 3dps classes exist

[keen dome]

Same, how about that rogue tank

[stoic locust]

Or make aug an actual role

[vale pine]

i am with you, i mentioned to a friend today how the entire game is rly bad now to onboard people

[thin sinew]

i'd die a happy man if they did that

[vale pine]

because you already needed to grind crests/valorstones before this patch

[stoic locust]

Wow is probably the most beginner unfriendly game I know of

[vale pine]

now in this patch you need to grind even more

and do visions for the additional 2%

[thin sinew]

uhm league says hi

[vale pine]

which are again a grind and time gated

[stoic locust]

Does league have a tutorial?

[keen dome]

I can think of quite a lot more, but I definently agree that WoW isn't good at it

[stoic locust]

Wow is the worst one I've seen, I can't speak to your experiences

[thin sinew]

it has the most basic keybind tutorial and that's it. good luck learning the 160 champs and all their combos though

[vale pine]

and you are also limited for casual content

like a new player can get 41 crests

[haughty rose]

oh really? never looked into DH's because i always thought it's boring for no apparent reason

[vale pine]

then he is hard stuck

because nobody takes him to keys

too much artificial limits

[stoic locust]

You also learn how the game works, how matches function, a rough understanding of roles

[vale pine]

if people want to farm crests in delves infinitely

why not?

[keen dome]

Hell yeah Fuu

[stoic locust]

If you want to do max level content in wow, you have to Google how to play

[thin sinew]

i mean you really don't xD

[stoic locust]

I did

[daring abyss]

What corruption is the going for sin rogue atm?

[vale pine]

if people want to have their vision tree unlocked, why not allow it from day 1?

and can we finally get rid of valorstones

[stoic locust]

Or crests

[vale pine]

haha, alright i am done complaining

crests is fine

its just 2 currencies, its to make you play longer

a common mobile game tactic

[keen dome]

DEATH! TO! VALORSTONES!!!

[stoic locust]

Admittedly now that you can spend 45 crests to make 15 better ones it's really good now

[keen dome]

[stoic locust]

Where's CGP grey, we need the death to valorstones video

[thin sinew]

i still think the whole crest thing sucks that the only way to farm high level ones is bloody m+

[stoic locust]

Worth trying for sure

[thin sinew]

by only way i mean directly, ofcourse you can do the painful runed delve farm

[vale pine]

i think its intentional

[keen dome]

I also argue there's still a weird issue the more casual and chill you get with Heroic raiding but eh, c'est la vie. Game is dumb.

[vale pine]

to drive more m+ play

[thin sinew]

i just play less lol

[vale pine]

because m+ play went down

in s1

blizz just needs to learn that people want to do the content they like

[stoic locust]

Because m+ sucked bollocks in s1

[thin sinew]

i just don't get why they kept the stupid cap on t11 delves

[vale pine]

and not like time gating or other artificial ways to make everyones life harder

[thin sinew]

why can't i just farm those?

it's just so weird they do half measures all the time

[vale pine]

exactly

[keen dome]

I also don't really think the timegating on this thing is that big of a deal. But it coming so late into the patch and then having an extra week for some reason is silly but w/e. Game dumb. Duos probably the same.

[vale pine]

the cap is there

[stoic locust]

They should let us actually get myth items from dungeons as well, why do I have to wait to get upgrades, let me no life damn it

[vale pine]

to make m+ play relevant

[keen dome]

Let me re-kill Heroic bosses to farm crests.

[vale pine]

if delves ended up uncapped

[stoic locust]

We're already in capped on upgrading myth items, why the fuck are they still gatekept by acquisition too

[vale pine]

many would not play m+

[keen dome]

And let a T11 award a Myth vault

[stoic locust]

Mü

[keen dome]

We're already in capped.

[vale pine]

german keyboard ü is next to +

[thin sinew]

imo they need higher than T11 for that

[stoic locust]

Death to myth vault

[keen dome]

Most people aren't

[thin sinew]

i was doing T11's at 630

[keen dome]

Why? It's 1 item a week

Who cares

[stoic locust]

If crest caps are a thing, why the fuck are we still time gated on acquisition too

[keen dome]

It'd also let you get Myth delve trinkets

[thin sinew]

oh you're not talking about T11 you're talking about the underpin chest

or am i wrong?

[vale pine]

thats my point

[keen dome]

No I'm talking about the weekly vault. Complete 2 T11's get a myth vault.

[thin sinew]

ah

i mean yeh i don't see an issue with that honestly

like on my main i have hero items i just can't get replacements for

[vale pine]

the entire idea of how the system works is to keep you playing as long as possible

[keen dome]

It does

[vale pine]

subscription drive their income

[stoic locust]

Ezpz more m+ play solution:
Fuck valorstones
Fuck only getting myth from vault
Done

[vale pine]

getting mythi track in m+ sounds horrible

^^

[stoic locust]

We're capped on upgrading them so why

[thin sinew]

only way they make m+ even remotely fun is stop key depletion but they won't

[stoic locust]

No difference between a myth item and a hero item if you can't upgrade the myth item anyway

[vale pine]

we had that in legion ^^

[ashen dock]

bring back titanforge

[vale pine]

and peole hated it

[thin sinew]

like let me set what level i want to run the dungeon at

[keen dome]

I also think we need more deterministic solutions like this dinar system from week 1 of the season. You get +1 token a week. at +4 you can buy any item from any content you've cleared. I.e., if by Week 4 you've killed Heroic OAB, you could just buy HoC.

[thin sinew]

why rng everything

[vale pine]

the problem with myth track is just how fast you can farm m+ gear

thats why its capped

[stoic locust]

Just make resi keys 1key above what you completed

[stoic locust]

Then they can make it like a daily quest or something to make it longer

[haughty mural]

Is lashga ok ?

[thin sinew]

i am hoping this is what they're doing, as that's how it's setup honestly.

they have so many systems that disrespect your time just for "the fun of rng" which is fine but give some kind of backup

[stoic locust]

Like a "complete 4 dungeons in time" quest, or you get a currency you can use to buy a random m+ item with or something

[vale pine]

i think dinar is a fail atm

[stoic locust]

1 myth item a week max is shit for non raiders

[vale pine]

i need to kill gally mythic to get the item from him

[keen dome]

So do I, but I think the actual concept behind it is good.

[thin sinew]

i will say i do agree with you having to actually earn the mythic item with dinar first though

[hollow spear]

Why? What is he doing?

[vale pine]

its designed to only reward success

[keen dome]

Like, in S2? It's not good. but as a concept from week 1 of S3? I think it could work

[thin sinew]

i don't agree with everyone just getting myth track

[vale pine]

not as a catch up system

[stoic locust]

S4 dragonflight.

[vale pine]

which i thought was the point of it

[keen dome]

Yeah

[vale pine]

a hero raider who does mythic progress

[thin sinew]

that's my understanding of it also Fuu it's purely a reward setup not a freebee setup

it has some kinks but that's fine

[vale pine]

does not rly care if he can get hoc heroc, as he likely already has it

[keen dome]

Like, Blizz just fucked everything since 11.1.5 but the actual core concept behind this dinar system isn't bad. If it was in-game from Week 1 of the season and functioned exlcusively as bad luck protection it would be good.

[vale pine]

but he won't be able to get it on mythic before they kill the boss

so he can't utialize the system

[stoic locust]

In m+ if it's the right key level like 14 or 15 then I disagree.
Why can I only have 1 myth item per week

[thin sinew]

Yeh, as someone who is literally in that boat right now. it's frustrating but i agree with it if it was here from the start

[keen dome]

I have nothing to spend my 2nd and 3rd Dinar on 'cos of them gating Mythic items behind kills. Which wouldn't be a bad thing in a bad luck system from week 1 but is bad in this system

[vale pine]

and e.g. i am in a weird situation now

[thin sinew]

but everyone was expecting it like S4 DF dinar

[vale pine]

where i haven't had time to excessively grind m+

[keen dome]

Because Blizz literally said it was going to be like that until they changed their minds at the last minute

[vale pine]

but even tho we are a extremely casual oriented guild

[keen dome]

They fucked the communication

[alpine wraith]

same i got jastor from dinar but then i got cards from vault

so i guess i get kezan

then what?

[stoic locust]

Drugs

[vale pine]

people now expect 480 from each raider to be not the most toxic individuals possible

[keen dome]

Hats

[alpine wraith]

could get azerokk and just rng it up

[thin sinew]

that's not really what i'm getting at. i'm saying someone who can barely clear normal shouldn't be spoon fed myth gear. if doing content hard enough then sure balance should be maintained but remember just because you kill stuff in mythic raid doesn't mean you get any loot either

[alpine wraith]

try to get the fattest crit

[vale pine]

my point is, the system as is rly brings home the endles grind

you need to be considered in a healthy state

[keen dome]

Who cares if they are, though. They can't upgrade it. They can't utilize it much anyway

[vale pine]

and the grind extends longer and longer

[alpine wraith]

everyone would have loved dinar if it was like 1 item every 3 weeks

[keen dome]

Also, you are forgetting they could literally just buy it with real £££

[thin sinew]

so why give it to them?

that's a dead end beni

[alpine wraith]

and like you got them from killing M or HC bosses

[stoic locust]

Mythic raiders have it slightly better, because the 1 item is the minimum, not the maximum

[thin sinew]

then they'll complain they can't upgrade it

[stoic locust]

If I kill a boss on mythic, I might get 6 items, or 1(vault)

[thin sinew]

as someone who had to get 80% of my myth gear from the vault i disagree xD

[vale pine]

it is just a very weird design

[keen dome]

It is

[alpine wraith]

yea all my M tier is from vault

[stoic locust]

Can't really disagree with a fact

[haughty mural]

I scrolled through a few messages above

[alpine wraith]

and both my trinkets and cloak etc

[thin sinew]

i just did. because i also stated a fact...

[alpine wraith]

M raid loot is actually fake

vile scam

unless you do splits too

[stoic locust]

Mythic raiders get more myth items per week on average than pure m+ players

[keen dome]

In theory, yeah

[stoic locust]

In practice too? It's an average

[keen dome]

I wish we could actually check the data on this. I really want to see general ilevel spread over the game

[leaden prairie]

!tea

[wicked jolt]

Thistle tea use:
It is recommended to macro Thistle Tea with Shadow Dance like this:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```

[stoic locust]

If literally anyone ever got an item from myth raid they can use, then my statement is correct

[vale pine]

i am unsure whats your point nymphia

[thin sinew]

problem is you're assuming full mythic raid clear vs m+

you have to unlock loot in raid unlike with m+ where you have the whole drop table.

most people don't do that

[vale pine]

delve players get less mythic loot than m+ players too

[stoic locust]

My point is I want more myth items

[vale pine]

and a lot of people do delves ^^

[alpine wraith]

usually you get 3 wrists and 1 tier token of a set everyone already has

that is our weekly oab loot

[stoic locust]

My best upgrade this week was a myth back

[vale pine]

crafting also makes mythic item levels more reachable

[stoic locust]

For off spec

[vale pine]

i mean bottom line is

[alpine wraith]

i got a myth back i catalyzed one of the weeks i had a spare chage of cata

[vale pine]

it would be fun if you could upgrade loot tracks

[alpine wraith]

crafting is very good yea

[vale pine]

so you can get delve and m+ loot on mythic track

[keen dome]

Making it more accessible is something I want to see but I don't know how you balance it. Personally I think putting more power back into Hero would go a decent way. A big problem with Myth is the GIGANTIC power difference between Hero -> Myth.

[stoic locust]

Some catch-up would be nice

[alpine wraith]

upgrading tracks would be so good

[vale pine]

even if its slower than raiding overall

[keen dome]

This would be SUCH a good solution to so many problems

[stoic locust]

Daily repeatable quest, beat 4 _ level dungeons for a random myth item

Or something like that

Replace dungeon with delve, raid

[thin sinew]

I don't get why they don't just fuck off the tracks and if you get an item you can upgrade it to max so long as you've unlocked the content so to speak.

Why does someone have to RNG their bis items 3 times if they're starting fresh ilvl wise or even progression wise

maybe that's to casual for blizz

[stoic locust]

Because then you can just run +2s for your gear

[thin sinew]

yeh but so what?

[keen dome]

Deterministic loot and being able to upgrade items would probably be one of the best solutions. You could combine them. I.e., the same +1 token a week. At +4 you can buy an item from something you've killed OR an item to upgrade something a tier. Don't have HoC? Buy it. Do have it? You can upgrade it to Myth.

[alpine wraith]

you would need to use the crests anyway

[thin sinew]

you can't upgrade it until you do higher

[keen dome]

I think something like that would go reeeeeally far.

[stoic locust]

Blizzard won't go for that

[alpine wraith]

i mean plenty of people did m0

to get a champion track trink

as the save was daily and fast

[stoic locust]

Early season issues Vs late season issues

[keen dome]

We have half of it right now but yeah I doubt it.

But it's a solution I could see working and pleasing the most amount of people.

[stoic locust]

Problem now is that my characters i didn't do 10s on since week 1 are at a significant disadvantage

[keen dome]

Yeah, you literally can't catch up

Which is a really stupid design issue with the vault if you don't Mythic raid.

[stoic locust]

You literally can't get full myth with just m+

[keen dome]

You can if you are lucky.

[stoic locust]

Unless you by some miracle get an item you can use every week for 16 weeks

[keen dome]

Yeah, you absolutely can. I have friends who have. It is just not the normal way to get it.

But it's not good design.

[stoic locust]

Statistics say fuck you

[keen dome]

Haha absolutely

[stoic locust]

Well

[keen dome]

It's whyI think a T11 awarding a Myth vault is fine 'cos it's still unlikely for someone to get everything from it

[stoic locust]

Higher chance of getting dog shit from vault

[thin sinew]

Delves just need to go higher than T11 and offer myth

T11's aren't comparable imo

[stoic locust]

They need to up the difficulty of delves then

[keen dome]

Why?

[stoic locust]

Delves are way too easy to give rewards comparable to mythic raid

[keen dome]

Why do they need to upgrade the difficulty haha

It's 1 Myth item a week

[thin sinew]

because they're easier than normal raid? xD

[stoic locust]

All the mythic raiders would just nolife delves instead

[thin sinew]

bro you gotta actually earn something

being spoonfed everything just sucks the joy out of the game

[keen dome]

For 1 Mythic item chance a week from the vault

[stoic locust]

Still too much reward for too little effort

My 10 year old cousin can do a t11 delve after hitting 80

[thin sinew]

but you have to account for the human condition. like we're talking now "why can't we have more" it doesn't stop

Yeh i did a T11 delve on a tank druid that was 610 ilvl like what?

[keen dome]

But you want it to be easier to get Myth from doing the content you like, which is valid. Even though you don't want to do M+10 to earn it, which you've decided isn't fun?

[stoic locust]

T11 delves are almost as easy as tanking raid

[thin sinew]

you're conflating difficulty with not having fun

[keen dome]

It would still be a single Myth piece a week.

[stoic locust]

No I want more chances of getting mythic items

[thin sinew]

difficulty isn't the issue

[stoic locust]

I do not want it to be easier

[thin sinew]

m+ just isn't fun

[stoic locust]

In fact, I think 10s are too easy

Bump it up to 12 and it's better in my eyes

Bring me a delve of similar difficulty and I can agree to myth delve vault

[haughty mural]

Convo took an interesting turn

[keen dome]

People are so precious about the gear other people can earn

[hollow spear]

I think myth track gear needs to be timegated to a degree

[thin sinew]

it's not really about being precious, it's about respecting time and effort

[stoic locust]

Agreed, but it's too time gated right now

[thin sinew]

start handing it out for free why bother?

[stoic locust]

Yeah just remove gear entirely at that point

[thin sinew]

absolutely

[stoic locust]

Hell I'd even agree to being able to pick an item from each vault row

[hollow spear]

Blizz will never do something like that imo

[thin sinew]

i like the idea of that except gearing would be turbo sped up also it'll fall on the whole making people feel forced to do everything"

[stoic locust]

Blizz does stupid shit all the time though

[hollow spear]

Cuts the season in half

No they don't

[thin sinew]

which they're doing anywway with the stupid crest rules...

[stoic locust]

What???

[hollow spear]

They don't speed up early myth gearing

You can maybe argue with crafting

[stoic locust]

I wrote "stupid shit"

[thin sinew]

considering the current balancing of sub i'd have to disagree xD

[hollow spear]

We're talking about gearing

Why would I care of something else

[stoic locust]

I didn't write speeding up early myth gearing

[thin sinew]

"blizzard does stupdi shit all the time though"

"No they don't"

were the statements

[stoic locust]

What narcotics are you on man

[hollow spear]

The last statement was picking gear of each row

Which speeds up myth track acquisition

[stoic locust]

And????

[hollow spear]

I said they won't

[stoic locust]

And I said "they do stupid shit all the time though "

You disagreed

[upper rock]

we want void ritual as sub?

[hollow spear]

Yes in that specific context

Why does it matter that they do stupid shit

If im talking about early gearing

[stoic locust]

I think you need to retake 2nd grade, because that's not how a conversation works buddy

They do stupid shit regarding gearing too

[hollow spear]

I cba mate

[vale pine]

i think there is a certain fear of determinism

the loot as it is now

[hollow spear]

Your argument is going nowhere

[vale pine]

does not have a end

you are never done

you have always one or two upgrades to chase, mostly even more

this is likely why we will never have a fully deterministic system

[stoic locust]

Tbh I think that's the goal they have

[hollow spear]

Duh

[stoic locust]

Keep us playing for as long as possible, instead of playing the best game

[vale pine]

yes, blizz tries to make the most amount of money

schocker

[stoic locust]

Indeed

I'm completely flabbergasted

[hollow spear]

Which is my entire point lmao

[stoic locust]

Man shut up if you don't have anything of value to say

[vale pine]

nymphia please keep the discusion civil

[hollow spear]

You're arguing with me against something that would shoot themselves in the foot

[thin sinew]

We can say that for certain given this insane timegating of 11.1.5 content >.<

[hollow spear]

To then come back and say they don't want to shoot themselves in the foot

[thin sinew]

the fact you think this is an argument speaks a lot

we're discussing

[hollow spear]

I'll just ignore the pointless ad homs

[stoic locust]

I am not arguing with you in the first place

[vale pine]

idk what you both fight about ^^

its fine to have diffrent opinions

[hollow spear]

So making a point in a discussion is what then? Not an argument?

[vale pine]

lets move on

[thin sinew]

so when sub buff?

[vale pine]

so this week will only be minor essence from visions

F

oh sorry

[stoic locust]

Sub buff is a myth, sub only get nerf

[hollow spear]

That's like what

[vale pine]

i mean, i am sooo excited to do visions for more than a week, its such a lovely content and i rly want to unlock everything. Absolutely happy and greatful that i am not done in a week or two, what would i go and do else, play other games? touch grass? pff...

[hollow spear]

1%

Can you skip this week and do everything next week or is it on a per week basis?

[thin sinew]

haha exactly! imagine just IMAGINE playing another game while you still have 2-3 weeks of your sub running! how dare you!

[stoic locust]

Watch next week they're gonna do some weird ahh nerf like nerf find weakness from what is it now 10%? To like 7%

[vale pine]

i don't know exactly, but i assume you have a catch up system

[hollow spear]

I want to spam it and never do it again

[vale pine]

i played bfa

[stoic locust]

You poor thing

[vale pine]

so for me its very much known content

[hollow spear]

I quit BfA before they released it

[vale pine]

its rly fun if you never played it

but in bfa you essentially had to do it every week

which... burned people out of visions quick

its more optional now

and you don't need to grind to even do visions

so there is a huge qol

[hollow spear]

I feel kinda burned out by s2 already

[thin sinew]

wait for it Fuu

Rotating corruption vendor

https://tenor.com/view/no-oh-the-horror-mortified-no-no-no-my-name-is-earl-gif-5376630

[haughty mural]

Hated them with a passion back then

[vale pine]

haha

[vale pine]

i think the mid season updates are rly weak this xpac

its mostly recycle content

and its usually grindy

[hollow spear]

They could have not done the whole turbo boost and dinar thing and it wouldn't have changed anything for me

[exotic kelp]

I know our tree sucks, but is there any talent changes based on bosses for mythic

[thin sinew]

i think they already know they misplayed 11.1.5 ion said as much.

[keen dome]

Yeah, but I just look at how 14 does it and it's such a cleaner system

[thin sinew]

the constant content hitting our fast this offten is too much

compared to it all coming in 2 month chunks

[keen dome]

Oh Discord didn't scroll

That was meant to be a reply to Fuu haha

[keen dome]

Don't forget broken!

Nightfall was staggeringly broken

[vale pine]

i don't think this patch has that many bugs

but i will play visions with my gf later

[hollow spear]

I don't know how you can accrue so many hours @keen dome

[vale pine]

so unsure if there is something broken with them

[hollow spear]

I'd be burned out for the rest of my life

[vale pine]

everyone plays diffrently

mythic+ for one is annoying

the other one likes to chill in 10s all day

i realized how diffrent people playy the game in bfa

e.g. islands ended up one of the most boring content in my opinion

[hollow spear]

For some reason I enjoy the non raid stuff like collections in gw2 more

[vale pine]

but some people loved to farm them and have some relaxing music on

[hollow spear]

Weird

[vale pine]

e.g. i know stjern did a shitload of them

[hollow spear]

Yeah I saw people do that

I mean, if they enjoy it

[vale pine]

and its the same with like farm content

some people just like to come home from work

go to the pc

and do some trivial content that gives tham some form of power progression

[hollow spear]

I'd argue there's better grinding games than wow, but maybe they feel comfortable here and don't want to switch

[vale pine]

possible

[keen dome]

I am grinding time itself

[haughty mural]

I always dislike senseless grind without progressing

[vale pine]

i mean the entire casual gaming genre is exploding

[haughty mural]

I love progression

[vale pine]

autochesses and similar are what people like to play

[haughty mural]

If it is rewarded

[keen dome]

If it's giving me achievements, working towards a goal or a mount, etc. Yeah. Power is a bit more nebulous but a good carrot

[vale pine]

what i mean is, i think everyone plays for diffrent reasons

and its not all bad

[keen dome]

Absolutely

[hollow spear]

WoW hands out power too fast to really turn it into a power grind for too long

[vale pine]

the game just is very tailored to one specific set atm

[hollow spear]

Especially if you're somewhat good at it

[vale pine]

which is why its annoying for people who don't like this specific design

[keen dome]

I wish we could have accurate data on play population, and then a look on what content people engage with. It's one of my big mystery desires

[hollow spear]

How many people get aotc and ce?

[keen dome]

Because we know, to some certainty, that 20 - 24% of the population ever get AotC.

CE is typically less than 1%

[hollow spear]

Unfortunately there's no achievement for normal completion or is there?

[thin sinew]

we can get that

[vale pine]

CE is for many impossible

[keen dome]

But this is based off Data for Azeroth which isn't 100% accurate.

[vale pine]

because of raid restrictions and raid size

[keen dome]

We, as players, do not have the tools to actually get accurate data

[vale pine]

its artificially kept hard to get CE

[keen dome]

Yeah

[thin sinew]

oh no but we can get an idea

[hollow spear]

I mean that's alright to me

[keen dome]

We can but it's just an idea.

[thin sinew]

as the error will be across all data

[hollow spear]

It's more about aotc and normal completion for me

[vale pine]

i think it would make more sense to have a challange mode and have mythic more accessable

[keen dome]

But we're very limited in the tools and the API we have access too so it's not really rigiourus and that frustrates me.

[vale pine]

because mythic is included in the gear chse

*chase

[keen dome]

They should steal Ultimates from 14.

Fight every raid boss in a raid in one consecutive battle

[hollow spear]

Because you don't have the time and people problem for normal and heroic

[vale pine]

a challange mode can have no power level outscale

[thin sinew]

honestly i don't think wow players would like that. even though i think ti's a cool idea

[vale pine]

so you actually keep it challanging

instead of the current outgearing to get ce

[hollow spear]

I wonder what that would do though

[thin sinew]

would also make mythic less of the goal which would be fun

[hollow spear]

Probably cut ce in half at least haha

[keen dome]

It'd make Mythic more of a goal

[vale pine]

it would make mythic more of a goal

[keen dome]

because more people would be able to play it

[vale pine]

because more people would be able to participate

[thin sinew]

rtwf of an ultimate raid boss would be fun to watch but fight would be so long.

[vale pine]

it just would not mean current hof or ce players would be ahead in gearing

but instead get some cosmetics or titles

[thin sinew]

Oh sorry i misspoke i mean it would make mythic less of the goal in the sense of "we want to get this cleared and that is it"

[vale pine]

for challange mode

[thin sinew]

as there is something higher

[hollow spear]

I think this challenge mode would die out quickly

[vale pine]

i think it would be very niche

[keen dome]

From what I've gathered listening to a lot of the really high WR people: they want REALLY fucking challenging bosses and fights. Gear is the means to an end, right?

[hollow spear]

Due to lack of participation

[vale pine]

because lets be realistic

many of the CE raiders would fail in CM

[thin sinew]

people said that about challenge modes in mop.
we now have m+

[hollow spear]

Without the gear carrot on a stick, it's hard to find population

[vale pine]

the game as is is designed to be more time intensive than skill

[hollow spear]

But how many people are actually pushing vs doing vault keys?

[keen dome]

Considering how low Mythic and CE participation is, I don't think it'd be much different.

Like, we already have content than less than 1% of the population engage with or can engage with. And it is a major pillar of the game.

[hollow spear]

But it would be mythic and then challenge mode on top

So filtering again

[keen dome]

MORE people would engage with Mythic if it was accessible

You would see CE go up

[formal helm]

CM coming back?

[hollow spear]

Agreed

I'm talking about challenge mode only though

[keen dome]

It'd probably be the same as the current CE %

[thin sinew]

trying to see if i can find it on logs

[hollow spear]

Which would become the new CE

Strictly speaking

[keen dome]

Raider.io has the data

the answer is extremely small

[thin sinew]

10 man mythic raiding incoming 👀

less idiots to wipe the whole group all night

[hollow spear]

I'd love that

[vale pine]

we just bounce ideas

[hollow spear]

They probably rather do mythic 10 than mythic flex

[thin sinew]

i mean that's not nothing

[thin sinew]

i think they'd struggle with mythic flex due to tuning. they still haven't got heroic flex tuning in a good spot on some fights

[half remnant]

I need some ideas, I'm cooking after what Eleem has found out yesterday with tfd. I found few additional things that can trigger it but they either share combat potion cooldown or take equipment slot which is not preferable.
Do you have any item that deals delayed dmg and is an item and doesn't share cd with combat potion?

[formal helm]

yeah but the score system is also such that it discourages pushing more

[thin sinew]

just taking that raid challenge mode further though.

they could do wing ultimates rather than a whole raid. then i guess mythic flex isn't an issue as it wouldn't need to be so complex

[formal helm]

why would you not get more and more score for doing harder content

people want to flex their shit

[thin sinew]

i think mythic being the end point causes it to not be flexible in nature

[formal helm]

oh deffo

[sly shore]

Another day

another post hating rogue on wow reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1kricfb/after_20_years_i_think_im_done_playing_rogue/

[keen dome]

can i have their stuff

[sly shore]

I'm happy that people are actually being vocal about it now

[thin sinew]

i'm full on the copium due to sunk cost honestly

[formal helm]

I mean yeah

[sly shore]

I mean I'll always play rogue cos I'm good at it

[formal helm]

but it doesn't really matter if blizz doesn't give a fuck

[sly shore]

But my main alt is now never going to be rogue

Gonna be dev evoker permanently now

on alt

[formal helm]

I'll probs stick to rog as long as I play

[keen dome]

Def agree with the sentiment though. It's super frustrating.

[sly shore]

so instead of hopping between alts I get good at my main alt

[formal helm]

if it becomes so unplayable I'll just quit the game all together

[hollow spear]

I started an arcane mage and enjoy it a lot so far

[vale pine]

tbh rogue is very much in a bad spot for a long time

so it makes sense

[sly shore]

100%

[thin sinew]

i had hope when realz was around with the work he put in but eh

[tepid trellis]

there was a very good chance if colour did not disband that i was not going to play rogue going forward

[thin sinew]

comms plans

[sly shore]

i wouldn't blame you

[hollow spear]

He secretly would

[sly shore]

I'm kind of in the area where I know I can never get 100% on a class that isn't rogue

[tepid trellis]

wouldve swapped to a perm raid buff thats always good

[sly shore]

like 95% maybe

[formal helm]

good one

[sly shore]

so I will just main rogue and keep alt

and keep up with that

[hollow spear]

I'd think higher of you

[tepid trellis]

i wouldve likely been playing shaman

[vale pine]

interessting

i assumed dh

[hollow spear]

Some classes are actually much easier to get to 99% on than rogue

[keen dome]

Yeah

[thin sinew]

oh god yes

[tepid trellis]

it would be between those 2 fuu

[keen dome]

Sub is so competitive

[thin sinew]

rogue just by it's many tools is complex but it's damage doesn't need to be

[vale pine]

ret, (bm) hunter, and dev are very easy roational

my gf keeps complaining how empty her bars are on 2 of the mentioned

[thin sinew]

to be fair i'll say sub isn't complex as it once was.

[keen dome]

Haha yeah, BM is so weird with how few buttons it has

[formal helm]

oh btw, sorry for interrupting this discussion, but is there any way of getting more then 1 black blood per run in these visions?

[vale pine]

you are wrong

[thin sinew]

Well that is what shocked me when i setup my druid for the tanking and healing delves i was like "where are all my other buttons"

[vale pine]

let me explain why

and why thats fine

[thin sinew]

what compared to shadowdust era?

[vale pine]

we are more ocmplex than ever

because we have so many little new buffs and debuffs

because complexity just means more things working together

[thin sinew]

ahh in that way

my brain has simplified so much down with macros

to be fair that's on me

[vale pine]

but what you are right about is, that the current design (especially removal of dust)

makes the skill floor higher

[tepid trellis]

i dont miss dust

[vale pine]

so the spec is easier to get at least some damage on

i am happy its gone now

[tepid trellis]

im very happy not getting dms about shadowdust timers anymore

[formal helm]

that's treu

[thin sinew]

Like in my brain dance rotation is.
dance>tech>builder evis> continue then padding between and obviously the weird offset we do for flag and blades

but for someon who's never touched it before they're like HUH?

[formal helm]

yeah

[round latch]

irrelevant but 3 egg omelette with green pepper,turkey,cheese,pint of black pepper and salt

[formal helm]

just feels so natural after years of playing it

[sly shore]

2 pieces of toast with olive oil butter

[keen dome]

3 egg omlettes own

[tepid trellis]

sub will never be intuitive to play unless they rework it

[sly shore]

remove energy

[keen dome]

Maybe I should make a cheese omlette..

[sly shore]

change combo point to void orbs

make it entirely ky'veza style

[keen dome]

YES

Maximum PURPLE

[vale pine]

i think removing energy from finishers would be something people like

[sly shore]

removing energy as a whole

[vale pine]

it always felt weird why finishers cost energy

[thin sinew]

real question though. would we want a fully sub rework? and are we talking combat to outlaw level?

[sly shore]

and focus on the builder spender aspect

where you can spam your buttons

[tepid trellis]

Eviscerate is renamed to Reaper and deals 100% more dmg on targets below 20% health

[sly shore]

give it a cool animation

[vale pine]

i think i mentioned some good qol changes in the article they can do

[patent crystal]

sylvanas dagger effect as a talent

[thin sinew]

it's like my brain has always taken rogue specs as
COMBAT: mr consistent builder focus
Sub: finisher focused
Assa:dot focus

but i know that isn't really true anymore and is way too simple for reality

[vale pine]

without reworking sub/rogue

[sly shore]

they clearly shown they can do a void reaper/rogue style design with ky'veza

[vale pine]

sylvanas dagger as a talent instead of goremaws is a idea i like

[sly shore]

qol is a bandaid fix

[vale pine]

i am with you, would love this theme

[tepid trellis]

let it have a shadow evis normal animation when the target is above 20% but when it goes below it does the reaper animation from kyveza where she appears behind you and nukes you

[formal helm]

true

I'd love that

[tepid trellis]

so you got like a shadowy apparition appear behind you that stabs your ass

[tepid trellis]

i do think it need it yes

[sly shore]

like old akari

in legion

[thin sinew]

what would it actually take to make gore in it's current 'form' even remotely viable?

[formal helm]

ngl, my main fun of the previous season was kyveza trinket with phantoms

[tepid trellis]

yeh just no dmg tied to clones

[formal helm]

just looking at it proc was so satisfying

[tepid trellis]

make it buff finishers as well

done

[thin sinew]

my only worry is that they'll completely kill the fantasy or make it not what we'd want

like i used to love combat rogue. the whole stupid big one handed sword spammy playstyle. but since they made it outlaw with all the RNG i just can't

i could be completely wrong now! as it's had a lot more changes but eh rather stick with what i know

[tepid trellis]

if u truly love something you gotta let it go

the popularity of the spec is dog water

it cannot get worse

[sly shore]

yep

[formal helm]

yep

[sly shore]

hence why we all default to assa now every patch

even if it is a fucking snooze

it does what it says on the tin

[formal helm]

idk they went halfway with ninja fantasy and then just abandoned it?

[formal helm]

nah, fuck that

cba with assa

[tepid trellis]

assa just does more dmg with half the effort

[sly shore]

yep

[vale pine]

you can buff anything by like 1000% and it does a lot of damage ^^

[tepid trellis]

but my gawd is it boring

[vale pine]

remember secret technique did no damage before df too

[sly shore]

again band aid fix

the spell is non-functional

but at least it got buffed pog

[vale pine]

just replace it with sylvanas effect

you get 2 benefits

[alpine wraith]

sec tech was even bugged whole sl

with bfa numbers

[sly shore]

bro

[alpine wraith]

told everyone many times

[formal helm]

wait what

[alpine wraith]

and no one cared

[vale pine]

first you give a execute, second you give aoe vs. st

[formal helm]

[sly shore]

recuperator

was bugged from introduction

until 11.0.5?

[vale pine]

haha

[sly shore]

that's what, 2 1/2 years?

[thin sinew]

yeh you're not wrong there honestly when i saw the log numbers i was actually shocked. i didn't know it was that dead when it's not BIS rogue spec

[vale pine]

secret range was bugged for a year

with long arms

to be fixed just in time to remove it

replicating shadows was bugged for a year

its like very much the subtlety state to always have a list of bugs

[tepid trellis]

it actually wasent, me and push tested this, details just wasent picking up the clones and same with logs the dmg just dissapeared from logs / details

it actually did okayish dmg

[thin sinew]

i've always bounced between assa and sub. but i'm in so deep now with sub gearing changing to assa i loss 200k dps which i know isn't the world but it is in my raid T.T

[vale pine]

secret tech had a problem

[tepid trellis]

just not better than the alternatives was

[vale pine]

it did now show an animation

[alpine wraith]

damn it was krangled as f

[vale pine]

for half an xpac

thats why it looked like it did no damage

[magic ruin]

Assassination disc has a pin about echoing void being bugged(?). Should i pick it still?

[alpine wraith]

but cm on not being better than master of shadows

[exotic kelp]

Dude i swear proper visual would make sub feel so much better

[thin sinew]

it has - FIXED

[exotic kelp]

why are the shadows so half assed

[vale pine]

^^

was seemingly only on beta testing servers (NA realms)

[tepid trellis]

it is only lesser corruptions anyway for now, so you can kinda just pick w/e you feel like

none of them do a whole lot

[magic ruin]

Okay thanks

[tepid trellis]

im probably just taking void ritual tbh

[vale pine]

i wonder if pulling random enemies

will be a thing again

or if they fixed that entirely

because void ritual might be the play to just get more consistent results

and avoid bugs like what i mentioned

[thin sinew]

you're a funny guy.
how much does stealth break every major patch? 😛

all rogue fixes are only temporary. we've come to expect this xD

[vale pine]

stealth code has roots in vanilla

so its i assume a big spaghetti pile

[thin sinew]

wish we kept the good bits

miss being able to reliable vanish stuff

[vale pine]

i wish i could stealth in dance again

its such a weird restriction

[thin sinew]

what would you say was the best time for sub?

i can't really talk as i missed a few expansion in terms of raiding so don't think i can say

[vale pine]

in what term, gameplay? balancing?

[thin sinew]

gameplay

[vale pine]

legion or now

legion dfa had a lot of interessting bits in the rotation

[thin sinew]

i was thinking the same for now imo. i didn't really play legion

[vale pine]

but current iteration is i think very good too

[thin sinew]

omg if they made dfa a thing 😍

[vale pine]

it isn't too diffrent to secret

[thin sinew]

rip being dumped as a pvp talent :<

yeh i guess.

i'd rather DFA over Coup though

give that mega evis hit

i dunno it just feel better even though it's not??

[vale pine]

balance wise:
Legion: Sub was only relevant for 1 tier (tos)
Bfa: Sub was not played all xpac
SL: Was a mixed pack, s1 was assassiantion, s2 was all 3, s3 rogue was bad
DF: S1 was sub after the other 2 got nerfed, S2 rogue was not played, S3 was sub and later outlaw, s4 was sin
TWW: S1 was sin, S2 was sin

[hollow spear]

Wasn't it animation locked?

[vale pine]

it was

[hollow spear]

Hell no

Keep it in the bin

[vale pine]

the current design is fine

its overall better

if you make some spells less target restricted

[thin sinew]

so was coup it's only recently not been

[vale pine]

e.g. why can't flag be a buff on you

[hollow spear]

I hated coup too

[vale pine]

or secret a aoe spell with no target requirement

[thin sinew]

honestly fuu that can be said about a lot of rogue CDs

[vale pine]

coup was dfa

without the good parts

[hollow spear]

100%

I think arcane mage has the same problem with touch of the magi

[thin sinew]

yeh it's difficult

like for assa i have zero clue how they fix it either. as ALL of their cleave is based around the idea of funneling a target.

same really for firemage ignite etc so it's not just rogue mage has a lot of scuffed stuff also weirdly

no clue how you fix that design as assa isn't suffering from it. and you can even play around it on bosses.

But then assa is like the most sticky spec in the game xD

[leaden prairie]

while this isnt entirely wrong

it was sub for prog basically every tier

sucks that it deosnt end up sticking i guess

but

Since I started the game in SL I think the only prog tier that wasn't sub was s1 SL maybe

[thin sinew]

like it would be fine this tier. but they did that little nerf then left us at the bottom shrug

[leaden prairie]

ye