subtlety

[leaden prairie]

When you mouseover it you get the actual parry part for melees

[ashen dock]

surely this week blue post, right chat?

[void ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/blue-da-ba-dee-eiffel65-gif-14330492

[round latch]

new song

latest hit

2025

[void ocean]

that song is from the 1999, meaning its 10 years old

[round latch]

if we timeskip 16 years ye suer

da ba dee da ba daou

[void ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/getting-old-man-saving-private-gif-13333225

[round latch]

I was 14 years old,in high school,can remember like ti was yday

[void ocean]

in 1999?

[round latch]

yes

[void ocean]

holy f

u older than me 😄

[round latch]

im older than most on this discord

[void ocean]

and discord itself

[round latch]

thats for sure

[void ocean]

I'll stand up for u in the bus, sir

I was 10 in 1999. tho 😄

[round latch]

there is a saying where i come from ''to where you are i was,to where i am you will''

[tepid trellis]

boomers

i was 1 in 1999

[haughty mural]

I see, missed that
Is it noticeably? Envenoms does not really hit hard on bleed, no?

[round latch]

so young

[fallow nimbus]

Get off my lawn

[round latch]

uwu

[leaden prairie]

I was 0.08 for a bit

[lilac stag]

Not particularly, but you’ve got your charge points often enough and it is more dmg with DM which you’ll likely get twice on a boss

[keen dome]

high5 old men playing sub rogue

[void ocean]

well id respec to outlaw, but arthritis...

[haughty mural]

Fair

Gonna test

St feels pretty bad else

[full lagoon]

I was -5

[short radish]

sub rogue is actually the best spec for boomers

you can stretch your wrists and fingers during downtime between dances

out of dance? dump all your energy (cast one backstab) and do 2 wrist rotations

then do that again and do 2 more wrist rotations the other way

[void ocean]

im a fckin Millennial

goddamn zoomers, never used calendar

[tribal blade]

i too remember the early days of the internet

i was an ebaumsworld enjoyer

[haughty mural]

🤝

[tribal blade]

early internet was so much more wholesome

nobody was ever trying to go viral, it just happened

[haughty mural]

The sound when you connect

[tribal blade]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsNaR6FRuO0

also having 1 computer for your entire family

[haughty mural]

Yeah

[tribal blade]

could you imagine telling kids nowadays you used to share your computer with your ENTIRE household

[haughty mural]

Even if it had multiple pcs only one could connect

If nobody did use the phone

[tribal blade]

lol true

[haughty mural]

[tribal blade]

bro i think the original twitch

was sitting watching my brother play games while it was his turn

[fleet wharf]

wasnt it called justintv

[tribal blade]

nah the even MORE original

[haughty mural]

True

[tribal blade]

having to take turns playing age of empires and red alert

[keen dome]

playing a game online and the phone rings

goodbye game

[tribal blade]

i don't think i actually played many online games at that time

oh maybe counterstrike

[brittle plinth]

Played wc2 online

Was great

[void ocean]

pls, bomberman, write the code so i could continue at that level

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ9Pu9Usk5o

[ashen dock]

https://tenor.com/view/aol-internet-dialing-connecting-gif-4039466

[tribal blade]

https://youtu.be/Zcn0DfNoEoM?si=52nI8dmCGdtuEduh&t=8 this was the OG game i played on my dad's DOS computer

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/stan-gestures-wildly-monkey-island-gif-6091750833244952368

[swift tinsel]

getting internet cd's in the mail was always a treat

[void ocean]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHEwh4iBBFE

[burnt sable]

is it dumb to macro symbols to my shadow dance? i don’t seem to ever hit shadow without symbols?

[haughty mural]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[void ocean]

well its not dumb but its not optimal

depends what u r after

[burnt sable]

when would i hit shadow and not follow it with symbols?

[short radish]

when you are in flag/blades

[void ocean]

second dance in ur burst window

u want to use SoD when ur sectech is on 10sec or less CD so ur 2nd supercharged CP is used on it

[burnt sable]

hmm ok.

[void ocean]

if u use SoD right away u will either spend both supercharged cps on evis or u will wait a bit to get sec tech up

[burnt sable]

thanks

[void ocean]

so its a bit of a dps loss

np

[haughty mural]

Also you can dance -> bs -> sod and not waste rotten stacks on bs if you’d play that

[hazy breach]

Not a gain

Just dont think about rotten for ST

[haughty mural]

Oh then nvm me

Thought it was a gain when season startet

[hazy breach]

Last we checked it was neutral to do it, because the bigger hit is mostly cancelled out by not extending symbols more

Through inev

[haughty mural]

i suck

[remote shuttle]

Oh ye i was too deep into CS in late 90s

[tribal blade]

de_dust 🙂

[remote shuttle]

Oh man... de_aztec was my fav back on the days

Overload of memories coming all together

(i was 16 in 1999)

[tribal blade]

i don't think i tried that many of the maps tbh, i can only really remember a few of them

[remote shuttle]

Ah i was so deeply into cs in my 14/18

Played every Final Fantasy every Elders scroll every MetalGear and every BaldursGate game those years... Rest of time i was jus CSing

[brittle rain]

CS 1.6 was just great

Do you remember kreedz maps?

[hoary bloom]

kz and bhop was so good back then

longjumps countjumps etc etc

damn

[brittle rain]

Good ol‘ times

[hoary bloom]

played 1 map 2 months ago

[brittle rain]

I was probably living in cs_italy for 80% of whole play time cause of a public server where it was the only map played

[plush roost]

Yeah that was a few weeks ago. Route and tech have significantly improved since then

[fiery pewter]

Just give rogues windfury

[swift tinsel]

would be a nice QoL change therefore undoable

[north schooner]

give rogues a pokéman - a pocket shaman who only shows up to cast skyfury and bloodlust

[zenith prism]

I sent to assa channel my bad

finish +17 TOP as sub

and my name is "D-level class" in English lol

[alpine wraith]

nice

man chinese looks so cool

or is that japanese actually

[keen dome]

Big blasting though. Hell yeah, congrats on the 17

[zenith prism]

that's Chinese actually

But I guess subtlety is somewhat japanese ninja style

[hazy breach]

Surely subtlety gets a big buff so it can do those types on things more often

[keen dome]

Tomorrow. Believe.

And if not tomorrow? The next day. And if not the next day?

[swift tinsel]

60% evisc buff

15% BP nerf

20% strike buff

1 auto removed from ShT requirement and no longer works with skyfury

[lilac stag]

Lashga quits if not tomorrow. I’m conflicted on what I’m hoping for.

[swift tinsel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1106224572811984956/1367129809951395871/9sftfb.gif

RIP rank 1

[keen dome]

Also, poison toggle

[hazy breach]

This would be like a +15% buff, but the top sub rogue parse still wouldnt have cracked top 350 on sprocket

[swift tinsel]

250% inc

and it reverse-Ebon Might's other people's damage to buff itself

[shy ermine]

Sprocket feels like extra shit because of find weakness

[swift tinsel]

Remove FW, make Nimble Flurry damage shadow

[shy ermine]

Fuu’s article was excellent but I was surprised to not see positional requirements mentioned

[hazy breach]

Yep, and cauldron you lose sectech damage if people log from the other side

[fallow nimbus]

Wouldn't be a problem with gb baseline and working fw apply

[swift tinsel]

Or removing FW and Shadowed Finishers

[hazy breach]

Or make FW matter

[fallow nimbus]

That's too much work, blizz can't do that

[keen dome]

Gloomblade baseline (becaue purple). Remove the positional element of FW. Aura buff by like 4% or something. I dunno, that'd probably work?

[swift tinsel]

idk what they could do to make it matter

[lilac stag]

make the talent tree not shit

[keen dome]

That's a bigger project

Like the pyramids

[fallow nimbus]

They simply forgot to put sub into their chatgpt classbalancing prompt

[lilac stag]

none of it matters except an aura buff at this point

[swift tinsel]

Remove dead talents, let us funnel infinite points into nodes

to increase their effects

8 charges of SoD

rotten gets as many stacks as you apply points

[hazy breach]

Like earlier versions of sub have been around FW removing all armor and having big ambushes to accompany big eviscerates

[lilac stag]

they clearly can’t be arsed to fix spec issues so aura buff it is.

https://tenor.com/view/crypto-easy-fix-fixed-job-done-just-a-small-leak-gif-10337269660110233852

[fiery pewter]

I wouldn't hate it since I enjoy the play style for now.

[swift tinsel]

bigger burst, I like this approach

[hazy breach]

But ye the current playstyle is solid, just numbers being low

[vestal escarp]

yeah 60% to evis so crits in flag matter even more

[fiery pewter]

Could you imagine a 12 mil Eviscerate?

[vestal escarp]

[alpine wraith]

yday someone showed me boomkin and others can burst for 11m+ now

meanwhile us at 7.5

[vestal escarp]

third wheel spec

[keen dome]

I saw a Dev hit around 12m on OAB heroic the other day

Big blast

[alpine wraith]

maybe i try the DB build

but playing with only 2 symbols irks me a bit

i'm omecracked on mastery so i wonder if it is better LUL

it was close for st i think

[hazy breach]

Its fairly close ye

[alpine wraith]

next week i will have 1200 more mastery too

finally getting that sweet 30k unbuffed

[hazy breach]

Truly a man that follows his heart and not what a stinky robot tells them

[alpine wraith]

ah sad it is 2% worse

[hazy breach]

Which one

[alpine wraith]

maybe i need some diff talents

[hazy breach]

CUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM2mBAAAAAgZZMWmGzswDMzMjhZGzMGGz2YGjtlxMmZmxgxysNAAAAmZwAYMbGGYgZRL0iNYA

[alpine wraith]

maybe it was using PE instead

[hazy breach]

Cant use tfd well though

Think CUQAA0tw2gAD7pPTLoW5IGZDeAAM2mBAAAAAgZZMWmgFegZmZMMzYmxMzY2mlZM22mZGzMzYwYZ2GAAAAmBDbmlZMbzwYhhlZWmWolZDG was the best tfd i could find (also the best burst overall)

[keen dome]

Big fan of the mastery project

[alpine wraith]

i think i know why tfd kinda uses third dance soon

and with 2 charges

you cant

so it would sit on sec tech and dance off cd for a bit

[hazy breach]

Pot and BL usually

Is my guess, ive tried delaying it but

[alpine wraith]

yea kinda hard

and it is not like you have plenty of cdr to just dance a bit later then dance again

then twice on cds

[hazy breach]

Im also kinda sus of swift death with 2 charges

[void ocean]

What r u guys cookin

[hazy breach]

Nah this is stale cooking

From early season

[alpine wraith]

was already done way back

[hazy breach]

Just unearthing

[alpine wraith]

sadly we are cucked by PV

being vile

and db being weak

[void ocean]

Aye

Going back to sleep

[alpine wraith]

not like finality is also super strong

[hazy breach]

The sim hates not using swift death, even for 2 charges

[void ocean]

My copium brain checked blue posts expecting buffs

[hazy breach]

But idk, holding for 100s so you can get the extra symbols just feels scuffed

[alpine wraith]

swift death is hard to value with only 2 stacks kinda

[hazy breach]

Since its 25/50/75/100 instead of 30/60/90

[alpine wraith]

maybe some breakpoints

in many of the fight lenghts

where you get extra and it becomes reliably strong

[hazy breach]

Ye its usually 1 extra but sometimes 2 across the entire fight

The alternatives just stink though, its probably mostly that

Like pog you can take replicating for 10% more rupture damage

Or wm for 15% more backstab and strike damage

Or gloomblade for 20% more backstab damage

[alpine wraith]

yea PE placement is kinda bad too

if only it was still 10

improv sht is not horrible but not strong either

[hazy breach]

Thing with 2 symbols is that you end up with too much cdr anyway

So more energy doesnt really do shit

[alpine wraith]

yea i expect you end the 2 dances

and you have dance and sec tech ready

but symbols has some secs left

even with swift

[alpine wraith]

wait wait wait

i got a silly one

2 radiance is simming more in st than 1 radiance 1 depths hmm but very rarely

[haughty mural]

dunno if i like that fi thing more

but at pugs its hard to justify

[lilac stag]

I’m gonna try no tea in pugs and see how that one goes.

The extra vanish kinda clutch for random tanks chaining a single mob

I was gonna leave the 25 missing crests until reset, then remembered visions are tomorrow so I won’t do delves right away.

[alpine wraith]

i just fiended on wednesday

and farmed all of them that day

[haughty mural]

i did that
and exactly as you mentioned - was glad i had an extra vanish or 2 for his random ass chains with 2% hp

[dry plank]

did you know that priest can fear the bomb on first boss in motherload? so encounter became even more interesting?

[alpine wraith]

lol

[hazy breach]

Yeeee you can also use crimson tempest and get a 5 target CT on the boss

[lilac stag]

Holy ML pug hell. Guild some other 3/8 guild group. 12 ML. Missed timing by 12 minutes.

[alpine wraith]

always do crest farm groups

[lilac stag]

this was a crest farm kekw

[alpine wraith]

well runed crest farm

[lilac stag]

fucking druid healer couldnt keep up with anything

i think i'm done with keys this season.

nothing left to upgrade after tomrrow

[tame agate]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[gritty knot]

@vale pine Damn, I've just read ur article on wowhead. All of it. U did a good job mate, it's very well written. I just hope someone in this indie company reads ur stuff and finally takes actions....

[vale pine]

thanks

[brittle plinth]

What's this

[fiery pewter]

The end of it really captured the situation well. You don't play Sub right now for anything other than the simple enjoyment of it

[random hare]

@tepid trellis @hazy breach would this be good for last boss rookery burst?

better than pacemaker 684?

[hazy breach]

I mean pacemaker aint lining up at all

[random hare]

or do i use 684 magnet

for shield dmg

[hazy breach]

Fairly sure the best is kezan by a pretty wide margin

[random hare]

i have it on 658

unfort

should be worth over 684 pacemaker? no way or

[hazy breach]

But ye goonsquad prob better than pacemaker

[warm marlin]

magnet wont work if you're holding flag for every one

trinket lockout with hoc

o u said shield

still sounds cooked

[haughty mural]

How long does the dmg phase last again ?

671 Energy Drink and tell your heal to keep you low

[lilac stag]

Just make sure you’re in combat before lust if you’re ever using it. No combat and lust won’t trigger the full squad.

[white siren]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[lilac stag]

@tribal blade @alpine wraith free gold for engineer r3safety switches right now

[alpine seal]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[dreamy pumice]

how bad is mastery dr

[short radish]

doesnt matter

just sim topgear and let th e robot take the wheel

[little thistle]

i dont have house of cards yet, I can buy Signet or Seaforium mythic which one should i buy first?
HoC hero neither

[hazy breach]

If youre not intending to kill mythic bandit you should buy hoc hc

Signet is awful for sub

[tribal blade]

wait what how come

[lilac stag]

Void cycle mount from visions on Tuesday needs r3 safety switch. Was close to 4k a pop a few hours ago

https://www.wowhead.com/news/buy-mats-now-to-obtain-the-voidfire-deathcycle-mount-in-revisited-horrific-376874

[tribal blade]

jesus

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/the-big-lebowski-comedy-john-turturro-the-jesus-nobody-fucks-with-the-jesus-gif-3520036

[serene notch]

whats more real not getting into 13s cause IO is 2950 or cause you are Sub

[hazy breach]

Probably the score mostly, but sub certainly doesnt help

[lilac stag]

better chance getting in as a resto druid than a sub rogue

[serene notch]

which is sad and true since i also play that

too*

[serene notch]

seems like chicken and egg problem if you dont sprint out ahead in the first weeks to stay ahead of the IO curve

[lilac stag]

Nah

I mean it helps, but make friends and try to push

[long marlin]

is jastor diamon overrated or something? Im 680 with with 2 665 rings and somehow a 671 jastor is a downgrade according to sims

[serene notch]

Casual enjoyer problems

[lilac stag]

People rarely make friends in keys that go well which is just silly

[tribal blade]

it's unfortunate but even people not doing high keys try to be slaves to the meta

[hazy breach]

Well it gives a lot of haste

[lilac stag]

I think it’s worse in casual content

[hazy breach]

And we dont like haste

[serene notch]

I feel this

[lilac stag]

Watching mdi tictaks in a 12 with people who don’t have interrupt bound

[tribal blade]

it's so dumb that in previous seasons i've signed up to groups helping friends do like 10s with me having title range IO, and don't get invites

[hazy breach]

Initially you'd think "but theres not a lot of haste on jastor? Its mostly mastery", which is true, but the proc itself is based on the highest secondary stat of your allies, which is in most cases going to be haste

[lilac stag]

tbf you get some troll assholes. With high IO

[hazy breach]

Not all classes have haste as their highest stat, but its definitely the majority

[lilac stag]

imagine enjoying haste

[serene notch]

Ive tried WME but not many keys beyond 10s

[lilac stag]

or doing dmg

[serene notch]

https://tenor.com/view/cope-harder-cope-sir-cope-sir-american-psycho-gif-26276799

[tribal blade]

every single special item they ever put in the game shared across all classes always has haste on it 🙂

[hazy breach]

Circlet was mostly mastery focused

But ye in general its mostly haste, because its what most classes want and more importantly what feels the best

[tribal blade]

sorry should have specified every raid tiem

[serene notch]

someone once said we do "ethical damage" ill never forget that

[lilac stag]

at one point we did

[tribal blade]

kind of yes

[lilac stag]

We don’t even do that now

[serene notch]

hahaha

[hazy breach]

If we go deathstalker we still do

[tribal blade]

it's sort of the same thing as arcane

[lilac stag]

ST rogue in general just down bad

[tribal blade]

except arcane just brings WAY more than rogue

[lilac stag]

assa getting propped up on raid adds

[serene notch]

i wish that would have gate keeped that spec behind SL rotation

where you would have to input nasa launch codes for 25 secs before popping off

[tribal blade]

thing is at least right there there are 2 god comps, the dk/boomy/arcane comp

[hazy breach]

@tribal blade Without looking it up, can you guess how much (in %) the top sub log on sprocket would need to match the highest MM log (ie the highest out of all classes)

[tribal blade]

and there's the phys comp

[tribal blade]

hrm

[lilac stag]

65

[tribal blade]

i honestly have no idea, hit me

[hazy breach]

40%

[lilac stag]

[tribal blade]

bruh i'm dead

[lilac stag]

we’ve hit a worse ratio than bfa

[tribal blade]

sprocket felt so bad as sub i swapped to sin for it

[hazy breach]

Obviously theres very few people playing sub and most """good""" players dont play it, so its realistically not that bad

[tribal blade]

the main issue i had was watching FW drop

[hazy breach]

And the MM top logs are quite a lot ahead of even the top10 logs

[tribal blade]

and the boss facing me perma 🙂

[hazy breach]

But ye its dire straights

[wide kernel]

yeah... whomever was saying that this patch was good for class diversity and then also said there's like 10% diff between classes is so wrong lol

20-40% in most cases i think

[hazy breach]

I mean it is good in general

We just happen to be one of the outliers

[wide kernel]

idk

[hazy breach]

But like if you go to something like this right

[wide kernel]

i hear that and i see things like p1 of brew when udhk was buffed and he's literally doing 2x my dps

[hazy breach]

Dev is not very far from 10% ahead of sub

[wide kernel]

lock is very similiar to that in overall

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/venom-tom-hardy-screaming-gif-11035878

sark cloak

[wide kernel]

what is that chat saying, 90percentile of what

because it's not sprocket

[hazy breach]

Turns out not all bosses are sprocket

[wide kernel]

well thats my point, in what circumstances are specs equalizing to within 10% of one another

sure as hell aint m+ where things change a lot per spec

i think we're ok on like vexxie and gally maybe?

[hazy breach]

The one i posted

[wide kernel]

and this is an aggregate of all bosses or something?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[wide kernel]

i dont think thats going to end up accurate because of kill timings and stuff

[lilac stag]

there’s also not a single boss sub could pop off on

[hazy breach]

???

[lilac stag]

where dev can delete adds on certain encounters

[wide kernel]

subs dps at kills varies very wildly depending on where you are in your cds

[lilac stag]

a spec with low dps and no niche

[hazy breach]

Obviously not every class is within 10% in literally all scenarios

Thats why theres different bosses that have different profiles

[wide kernel]

well if you look at most of the high sub kills they all are done right as sub is finishing cd's last i checked, and if not its close to that

[hazy breach]

So are the dev top logs

And MM hunter top logs

[wide kernel]

yes, but we are the worst class in the game outside of cd's

[lilac stag]

that’s they way cds and kill times have always worked

[wide kernel]

results will be more skewed for us in that way for kill timers, so it will be worse

[lilac stag]

[hazy breach]

If its skewed for everybody

Its not skewed

[wide kernel]

we are the variable with being worse than other classes outside of cd's

[lilac stag]

25 seconds of shit dps isn’t going to help 2 min specs. That same kill time they didn’t get another major in

[wide kernel]

unless we want to say sub isn't the worst class in the game outside of cd's

[hazy breach]

Thats not relevant

To my point

In any way

[wide kernel]

the actual question isn't if that has a worse impact than other classes if that statement is true, but by how much

[hazy breach]

That would be a thing if we were looking at a single log

But this is the average of hunreds or thousands of logs

[lilac stag]

Top MM log dips to -1m outside of CDs

[hazy breach]

So thats not a factor

[lilac stag]

In ST

[wide kernel]

like for example, if 65% (random arbitrary made up number) is inside of it's cd's and sub is 85% of damage inside of cd's kill timers will disparately effect one more than the other

[hazy breach]

Yes

But that doesnt matter

[wide kernel]

it would actually because it means you would have to fish more parses to see more high end sub ones if the data size isn't large enough to equalize

which is what i believe is going on

that's actually discounting other stuff like a raid group intentionally letting sub get a good parse

[hazy breach]

Idk youre completely ignoring my point to complain about sub being bad

Fair enough

[wide kernel]

what i actually think is sub is worse than the numbers suggest, maybe thats just personal experience though

some of these parses i dont think i can ever do and raid is much easier to parse with sub

also im still fucked for raid logs anyway. I got the rep bug where i got set to 0, two weeks ago and devs refuse to fix it

[short radish]

yeah if youre missing like 9% damage buff

thats kinda rough

but tbh with parsing, you can get 85+ if you just do your rotation correctly and have not terrible gear

in heroic

if not 95+

[pearl swan]

Just press Ur buttons n U get r1

Pre simple as sub

[tribal blade]

@lilac stag yeah you weren't kidding

[lilac stag]

I’ll take my cut tyvm

[tribal blade]

erm actually i was promised 4k per, this is almost 50% less

ipso facto

[lilac stag]

You responded how many hours after the fact?

your inability to capitalize fully on the market is not my issue

[tribal blade]

i demand a refund

[lilac stag]

I demand buffs for sub that don’t involve deathstalker or black powder. we don’t always get what we want.

[ashen dock]

Is it possible to learn this power?

[wide kernel]

anyone know of a good WA package for sub?

[worn ivy]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[vale pine]

which numbers do you refer to?

subtlety is already last on the wcl statistics

[exotic kelp]

sub bad upvotes please

[coarse bolt]

i wish when wow head posted that "aug isnt the bottom" piece it had literally any context to the data, thats seemed like a maybe more so than usual theme all tier

[vale pine]

i did put my opinions in the wowhead article, and tried to make it nice to read.
It at least gives some ideas why subtlety isn't that good atm.

[coarse bolt]

did I miss that sorry

[wide kernel]

eleem posted a statistics from wcl where its claimed we're like within 10% variance or so i think, i think its more than just 10%

[vale pine]

> Open WoWhead Article <

[coarse bolt]

I did read your retrospective but I sware that post didnt have anything but a quick blurb

[vale pine]

it depends what we refer to

[wide kernel]

depending on the fight and etc it feels like its more like 15-30%

[coarse bolt]

this is the one I was referencing

https://www.wowhead.com/news/augmentation-leaves-the-last-spot-the-war-within-season-2-dps-rankings-for-376872

[vale pine]

but lets see

[thorn oxide]

are you comparing apples to apples though?

[coarse bolt]

and I thought your article was great

[wide kernel]

well thats kind of what i said as well. We're the most CD dependent class in the game and we would thus have the most variance between groups AND with boss encounters as extra variables

like anecdotally i feel completely helpless in raid a lot when it comes output

[thorn oxide]

but looking at wcl you are watching averages - across different kill timers etc

[vale pine]

if we go from WCL bottom to top difference is ~12% (95%tile)

[thorn oxide]

so the whole inside/outside cds is invalid

[vale pine]

if we look at the maximum output

[wide kernel]

is it that realistic to expect most subtlety rogues to get anywhere near 2.8 for the raid encounters though

[thorn oxide]

average =/= most

[vale pine]

the diffrence of the best logs is roughly 25%

if we look at the avergae (50%tile)

[wide kernel]

yeah, like i said 30%

10% aura buff is not going to fix that

[vale pine]

we have ~12% again

but wcl has some caviats

first of all, certain fights migth remove damage from e.g. adds you can pad on

[wide kernel]

also, if you check sub logs, (i am hesitant to say all, but w/e) are basically ending in optimal windows for those rogues parses

[vale pine]

that can be true too

[thorn oxide]

arent you just checking them from the top up though? xD

[wide kernel]

the highest different between dev and sub is more realistic imo

[thorn oxide]

which would imply its the literal best case scenario

[wide kernel]

like bro when i'm at 2.2 on gally and i see a bm doing like 3, it hurts

[wide kernel]

well what is actually infers is that these are people being given parses as opposed to rng

[coarse bolt]

encounter design is always an absolutly huge element. I generally swap specs boss to boss and some of the fights sub was just not worth the squeeze this tier

as much as I wanted it to be

[vale pine]

sub was good on exactly one fight

and this fight is now trivial

[warm marlin]

10% aura buff is reasonable and puts the spec in the top half

[wide kernel]

well, a simpler argument is just play assassination for raid because the kill timer differential is a lot less because its less cd reliant

[warm marlin]

ret and dev and the warlocks prob just need to be knocked down

[vale pine]

10% aura buff just gets us nerfed again

but assassiantion got a 5 or 6% buff which did lead to this diffrence

so at least this is how far sub is behind

[keen dome]

4 - 6% is what I'm expecting we'll get

[warm marlin]

ye 6% is prob fine

[wide kernel]

why is a 10% too much?

if we're like 25% behind

[vale pine]

more like 12% if you want to be the top spec

[dry plank]

No buff is needed sub is fine guys )

[keen dome]

4 - 6% would put us around the middle of the pack which would be a pretty balanced position to be in. Which is why I think that's waht they'd do. 10 - 12% would put us near the top and then we'll get nerfed again 'cos we'll be overperforming, esp in S3

[wide kernel]

blasphemous heresy

[dry plank]

Amen

[warm marlin]

idk I think even with 10% you wouldn't be top 5

[thorn oxide]

the 25% is not a viable metric to base balance on tho

[coarse bolt]

those top log comparisons are like a whole conversation.

[keen dome]

Yeah

There's so many other things to consider

[coarse bolt]

nobody hits that in a vaccum

[wide kernel]

well, 25% at the top logs, and top logs basically assume optimal kill timers, wouldn't it be optimal to balance around that?

[haughty mural]

Don’t knock them down

[keen dome]

You'd be better off looking at like the 80 - 90 range and doing comparisons there but that's still not going to be fully accurate

[haughty mural]

Imo just tune underperformers a bit up

[warm marlin]

look at this sprocket from a little while back and say ret is balanced mate

[haughty mural]

You don’t always need to nerf everybody instantly

[wide kernel]

like if you balance at 95% percentile so many bad things are gonna come from that

because there are unrealistic variables involved, like farmed parses

[keen dome]

You shouldn't balance around a single log, though.

[thorn oxide]

but thats what you are doing with the top log xD

[haughty mural]

Ret just got tuned up - so there is that

Others just need to follow

[wide kernel]

what you want to do is balance around somethings actual and real standing in the rankings, not random arbitrary numbers with variables

[haughty mural]

Not need to nerf them

[thorn oxide]

full average isnt the perfect metric but its the closest we get to the actual standing

[haughty mural]

(Besides dev maybe cuz they are kinda busted)

[coarse bolt]

this is exactly what I was getting at before. like at 95 there are maybe 1700 sub parses, i bet a wild amount of those are people who dont main it.

[thorn oxide]

not to mention all the "missing logs" from people that fotm

[warm marlin]

the intention wasn't just to cherry pick a single log, it was just our reclear from this week

[wide kernel]

the reason i say those parses are farmed is because there are so few people playing sub, that the remaining ones are going to be ones committed to that and asking guildies to get them parses

[keen dome]

Fair, but I feel like a 100 isn't a good example

[coarse bolt]

its exasperated when your spec is like a blip size vs many others

[quaint lodge]

What percentile would you prefer to balance around

[coarse bolt]

and I totally agree with FUU on the issues on top of that

[quaint lodge]

Like I get what you're saying about it being a bad indicator, but what do you think is better to balance around

[keen dome]

The whole picture

[wide kernel]

i'm not really sure, but i think the sub vs dev parse is more realistic because there are less variables involved at the absolute top. Maybe that's even a bad metric, but you can just add an addendum and say like none of these things are good things to balance around

[haughty mural]

[quaint lodge]

Mmm, at that point it just becomes circular

[thorn oxide]

you can just read the "aggregate using normalized scores" which is trying to basically show that kind of data

[wide kernel]

i think the better question here is how does blizzard determine how it balances all the different specializations

[quaint lodge]

If you want the real answer

[coarse bolt]

not sure balence is something that ever can exist. 32 specs all being equally good at various encounter designs is something I cant even imagine building

[quaint lodge]

Its probably that blizzard doesn't have a "balance" team necessarily

I talk about this with League sometimes

But League's balance etam isn't real, its almost entirely based around player perception

They do not balance the game for statistics, they balance it purely on "we want to change this" or "the community percieves this a strong"

[keen dome]

It would be interesting to find out how they did balances, yeah.

[quaint lodge]

granted theres cases where things are genuinely strong

[thorn oxide]

league sells skins, dont look at that as an outlier of game balance

[quaint lodge]

That said, Blizzard probably does the exact same thing

Mmm, WoW sells subscriptions, same thing tbh

[wide kernel]

yeah it feels like someone does a horrible job at balancing yeah

[keen dome]

I think something you aren't considering is how few people engage with content in WoW

Most players do not care about this

[thorn oxide]

but they dont sell more subs when one class is better in parses than the other at a single point in time ;p

[keen dome]

Most players do not even raid Normal.

[quaint lodge]

Exactly, which is why nobody gives a fuck about sub

[wide kernel]

they do tho. That's why ret is kept up to date so much

[quaint lodge]

But we give A LOT of fucks about Ret

[haughty mural]

They balance around pro play, don’t they

[coarse bolt]

I mean zorn its rogue in general

[quaint lodge]

No

They balance pro play around viewership

[coarse bolt]

when rogue is good peopel still dont bandwagon

[quaint lodge]

If you keep the same things meta for too long, people get bored watching

[wide kernel]

part of what i suspect the balance is is something like: we want this specific composition to be viable in m+, We want this class to be strong for this raid and etc

classes get to take turns

[keen dome]

I don't think they do that

[thorn oxide]

they dont

[short radish]

the cdr of sub makes it seem like we have huge variances

but realistically the lost uptime in this raid is so small

[wide kernel]

what pisses me off the most and what kept me from trying wow for a long time is this world of castercraft shit though

[short radish]

it doesnt matter

[thorn oxide]

its class design first and then balancing around that

[tepid trellis]

dartboard on the wall with all the class pictures, blind folded then throw

[wide kernel]

physical comp is like 3rd class citizen in this mmo

[thorn oxide]

and tbh if they are smart, they dont balance around parses too 😛

[wide kernel]

is this while they are high on the milk from the office?

[vale pine]

nailed it

[vale pine]

i am sad to report subtleties picture fell of the dark board

[wide kernel]

like, after learning assassintion after there is time left in this patch i am super tempted to go learn havoc

[tepid trellis]

its up there, just on the other dartboard which is for nerfs

[wide kernel]

i hear the momentum is a good level of complexity to it and DH generally seems to do good

[thorn oxide]

sub has always been a plaything in the balance team hands tho - pve or pvp

[wide kernel]

yeah what does that statement mean that we are a playball for testing

[tepid trellis]

can u really call it a plaything if its forgotten in the corner of toys room?

[short radish]

dont think theres much complexity to DH

[wide kernel]

max was talking about momentum being difficult

[thorn oxide]

nah, its just that the concept/class fantasy/profile is hard to nail exactly

[short radish]

max also makes tier lists and is full of shit

momentum isnt rocket science

[keen dome]

Someone should make a tier list of all the tier lists

[coarse bolt]

DH is fun and its probably more engaging right now than ever

[tepid trellis]

Havoc is not hard, it has its little gimmicks but it has been vastly toned down in complexity over the years

[coarse bolt]

a class being fun is super fucking important

[short radish]

yeah which is why im still playing sub

trickster feels good

just numbers suck

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[coarse bolt]

its why so many people play Ret. Ret is simple and looks good and feels funs its fast

the ceiling is fucking using utility

[keen dome]

Flashy and fun, good visuals and feedback, feels fun to push buttons, good thematic design, easy to pick up and play with some depth, lots of utility buttons, horse

[short radish]

well yes and no

[wide kernel]

yeah that part feels like a slap in the face to people who play difficult specs

[short radish]

people were always playing ret even before the rework

and when it was dogshit

[coarse bolt]

you dont pool and micro manage 45 debuffs that have no visual effect

[short radish]

people just like playing paladins

[keen dome]

This is always going to be relative to the indiviudal, though.

[coarse bolt]

true true speaking broadly

[tepid trellis]

nah you just micro manage hammers instead

[thorn oxide]

thats because, and I know that might be a shocker to many - most people dont care about parses 😄

[wide kernel]

part of why i like sub is i'm like two months and change into this spec? and i havent found the ceiling yet

hell i just learned that its not hard to track fazed/FW on nameplates

[short radish]

i know and i hate most people because of that

the amount of 10s ive done where people dont even have details installed

absolute mouth breathers

[thorn oxide]

most people dont even step into m+ tho

[quaint lodge]

yea but lowkey they're having the most fun

[keen dome]

I think it's really interesting, and important to keep that in mind. Less than 30%? of players even touch Heroic, haha. It's fascinating

[thorn oxide]

those are still in your bubble

[short radish]

exactly, how dare they have fun when im not

its so rude

[haughty rose]

wait are we supposed to track fazed and find weakness? 😮

[wide kernel]

yeah

[short radish]

yes and no

[quaint lodge]

FW yes, fazed a little bit less but yes

[keen dome]

Are we

[short radish]

more no than yes

[thorn oxide]

its not the only thing u can do in the game - we're just in a bubble ;p

[tepid trellis]

Fazed you do need to track

[quaint lodge]

FW is important in AoE

[keen dome]

Absolutely

[short radish]

we have cloak not bubble

[tepid trellis]

you only ever press Coup with Fazed up

never without it

[quaint lodge]

and Fazed is important too but theres somany ways it goes off, its sort of hard to really need to track it

[tepid trellis]

unless you wanna do even less dmg than we already do

[quaint lodge]

I see it like once in a blue moon where I wanna hit coup and theres no fazed

[wide kernel]

wait thats possible? i thought we had found the floor already

[short radish]

yeah but if you do the rotation correct you always have fazed wh en you coup

since you sectech

and if you dont sectech

youre not in dance

[haughty rose]

fuck more min max potential. where can i read more about it

[short radish]

and you do poop damage anyway

so its kinda /shrug

[thorn oxide]

well its a troll argument, but the floor is literally falling in the hole on gally pull ;p

[wide kernel]

i though sub's whole identity was the sheer pointless of no matter how hard you try you will never deal more damage

[haughty rose]

that's what i'm thinking. on ST fazed is always up and on AoE i only use coup on the target i'm already attacking which should have fazed up as well

[quaint lodge]

wowhead guide has a big portion at the bottom

talking about some min maxes

and by some i mean like 10 diff things

[wide kernel]

TFD is more deterministic than you think at least in m+

[warm marlin]

i mean if you have coup up and sectec is 15s away you should consider dance coup sectec

especially since youll waste an unseen blade proc if you sectec with coup up

[haughty rose]

why TFD? what has it to do with fazed and FW?

[haughty rose]

that sounded rude which i didn't meat to do lol

[wide kernel]

TFD is a fairly important talent and if you never get told, one of the biggest ways to deterministically use it is to figure out the distance to not be in combat

[tepid trellis]

in most cases fazed would be up but you do have situations where it isnt, be it downtime or w/e or delaying it for bursts

[warm marlin]

yes, so it is good to track

[tepid trellis]

yep

[wide kernel]

i spent like 2 hours last night and figured out TFD timer usually doesn't get reset unless you either A.) Take damage or B.) be too close to allies/mobs in combat

its legit optimal to run away from combat, get the buff and SS in

[warm marlin]

FW feels good to track as well since there are scenarios where you would want to open with strike instead of backstab in order to apply it

[quaint lodge]

LOL yeah

LoS is a rule you might want to test too

[tepid trellis]

or if you play sub on lockenstock xD

[quaint lodge]

I've noticed that it also has smthn to do with it

[warm marlin]

ye or that

[haughty rose]

yeah sure. i'd never not use it in m+ and pray to the overlords at small indie company every day to remove the countdown or at least fix the bugs

but the conversation was about FW and fazed and i'm not sure how they are related

[haughty mural]

Our first vexxie kill we were also told to stay in front of the boss

[quaint lodge]

Find weakness changes the target count at which you use blackpowder versus evis

[haughty mural]

[warm marlin]

eleem mentioned stacking sht for flag windows being better than rupture spamming if you already have enough cdr farmed

[quaint lodge]

and coup de grac should only be used on something that has fazed on it

Thats abt it

[warm marlin]

since ive been trying holding vanish for vanish ss -> flag rupture going into windows with fw guaranteed

feels kind of nice

[coarse bolt]

i kinda miss the legion era teleport fucking everywhere as much as I don't

[wide kernel]

your statement was about optimizations originally

[haughty mural]

Watch me port around the bridge on krosus gapping everybody on add dmg

[coarse bolt]

"conrad why are you over there" "building cp boss"

[haughty mural]

Felt like killing spree

[coarse bolt]

slightly less suicidal but yeah

it went from all the time to just out of stealth by end of expansion

[wide kernel]

i lowkey want to actually play deathstalker tho :/

[fallow nimbus]

Stepping 1m away from the garbage boss and teleporting into the beam

[haughty mural]

Ptsd

[coarse bolt]

I am in the top 100 for healing parses on carnage. Peak wow

as outlaw

[keen dome]

Winning

[fallow nimbus]

Proc cheatdeath and you can reach 1st

[coarse bolt]

very much a "forgot to change spec still dicking around" kinda night

[keen dome]

There's no other parse in the game that matters more than LFR Healing as a DPS

[haughty mural]

I really need to force myself to play cheat again on most things

[junior prawn]

play sin then

[wide kernel]

and be a traitor?

[junior prawn]

i dont wanna be near playing death stalker anymore

i rather play outlaw

[gleaming geyser]

Great retrospective Fuu, enjoyed the read, hopefully your (our) wishes come true around the potential buffs

[wide kernel]

DS sub sounds so cool though, to have extra prio damage

[gleaming geyser]

Didn't know faze is effecting the raid!

[wide kernel]

prio is always more value to a spec

[coarse bolt]

death stalker is uninspired and boring and we deserve better.

[junior prawn]

i will take less prio damage just incase i need to hardswap to something

deathstalker feels like cbt

[haughty mural]

DS aoe as sub

[junior prawn]

https://tenor.com/view/pascal-pedro-pedro-pascal-discord-crying-gif-21761489

[tepid trellis]

"correct" aoe as DS sub

is actual torture

[wide kernel]

yeah if we could get evis fixed for darknest night that'd be great

just make it aoe ffs

[haughty mural]

It really is torture

[gleaming geyser]

Sub rogue players really are masochists eh why else would we play this

[haughty mural]

We don’t

We play trickster

[exotic kelp]

both hero talents suck thematically imo

[coarse bolt]

the whole house feels like that

killing spree is more suicidal than surrender to maddness

shitting coins kinda blows

[haughty rose]

ah. i got you. i was wondering if i missed a correlation between TFD and Fazed/FW

[coarse bolt]

numbers are whatever in the long run like "is this fun?"

[keen dome]

Yeah

Vibes and feeling matter the most. numbers can be fixed (well, in theory. Blizz??)

I really like coup now. It's a good button to press outside of it being six thousand eviserates because they fear our single crit power

[coarse bolt]

I find 1 hr tricks oddly appealing wish it had more synergy with the rest of the "trickster" tree

[keen dome]

Yeah. I just don't ever use it because I prefer blackjack. But I like the idea of it a lot.

It's just too bad it's so weirdly implemented

[gleaming geyser]

1hr Tricks is cool, especially when your tank dies in m+ and releases and the mobs start running back to the start of the dungeon, definitely doesn't cause bugs...

[haughty mural]

I like the cdr on speedshroud

So I have utility

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[limpid sage]

How much cdr is it again

I forgor

[keen dome]

I did a key with a buddy a while ago and they fell down into a spot where they'd have to pull mobs to get out. But, as a rogue, I could save them. Now that's utility!

[limpid sage]

Because I considered doing that as well

[haughty mural]

With the shroud cdr talent in the class tree

[thorn oxide]

its rly cool, but I got shouted on enough in raid for messing with their taunts this season to even touch it xD

[haughty mural]

Should be around 2.7 min

[limpid sage]

What do you trade off for it typically

Shiv?

[haughty mural]

Shadowrunner

Or shiv if you take that

[coarse bolt]

haha yeah i had that happen on 1 armed prog

[thorn oxide]

https://tenor.com/view/there-was-an-attempt-you-tried-sticker-the-more-you-know-you-tried-gif-7871343

[haughty mural]

Or anything really

[north schooner]

just tricks the healer you like the least

[haughty mural]

*that is not important

[thorn oxide]

I usually trick the second dps in details

[coarse bolt]

wasnt ptr trickster based around distract?

[limpid sage]

Talking about utility

[haughty mural]

Feint

[coarse bolt]

thats it

[haughty mural]

It was horrible

[limpid sage]

Shadowflame rockets tinker is huge for ML if you die on the last part

Timed a 13 with 19 ms left on timer because of it yesterday

[coarse bolt]

distract is honestly an ability that could have been transformed into something cool. I don't really rememeber using it since spellblade to keep him in place between pulls

[haughty mural]

Yesterday in motherload

[coarse bolt]

pathing mech?

[haughty mural]

Distracting kinda often if I think about it

[haughty mural]

Ye

[haughty mural]

The times

[coarse bolt]

was that or the mentalist douches

that patting one at the bottom of the mine cart

[haughty mural]

You can

[coarse bolt]

If I saw a rogue pug effectively use distract there is no way I wouldnt whisper them

[ashen dock]

maybe blizzard think the 2% dps increase from the helm enchant will bring us to the middle of the pack, yeh it has to be that

yeh im convinced. Honestly it's a great play by them, bravo well done

[gleaming geyser]

I use distract on patrols that might pull (priory) or in motherlode to stop the patrolling mech guys

[quaint lodge]

^ i use it mostly for patrols

Mechagon unit u skip

priory patrols

[coarse bolt]

in a world where you cant count on freedom or bop being on a bar, or a guy with lust knowing when it use it you see a distract

[quaint lodge]

Theater of pain gasbag in case its abt to thrn

[coarse bolt]

you give props

[vale pine]

well everyone gets the 2%

the entire idea of gear levels and the patches is

to give everyone the same benefit

its why these patches are so boring (opinion, don't let me make you less hyped to grind or engage in content)

[ashen dock]

I have negative hype for tomorrows content, apologies in advance

[quaint lodge]

is there content tmmr?

[void ocean]

u mean u have vision... and its horrific

[vale pine]

yes

visions

its bfa content

but its content

[tribal blade]

gotta be an engineer 😉

[north schooner]

distracting the last mechagon detection gauntlet robot in a pug only to see people wait out the full 10s is my favourite part

[gleaming geyser]

That one too! People are always so confused and dont move 😄

[quaint lodge]

o yea

i didnt play bfa so itll b cool

[north schooner]

perhaps distract should apply a debuff on the affected mobs dunno. It's easy to miss the spell effect since it disappears after 1s

[coarse bolt]

I farmed visions until I hated shit in BFA and am so excited it has returned

[severe prism]

Am i crazy or subterfuge used to work on shadow dance and isn't anymore ? i'm overcooking shit builds because bored

[haughty rose]

is distraction actually any different to soothe? both reduce detection range no?
if it's the same it should definitely have a debuff like soothe

[gleaming geyser]

No distract stops the mobs in place for a while and makes them face a certain direction

Good for patrolling packs

[haughty rose]

it doesnt reduce detection range?

[gleaming geyser]

Nope

[haughty rose]

oh wow. it should

everyday in here i realize more and more why we are useless in group content lmao

and some patrols where this would be really useful are even immune to it like the one on the start in floodgate.

and in priory in the last room with the miniboss i feel like the duration is too short

they eventually will get you as long as tank doesn't pull the initial group out to the stairs

[worn ivy]

Where is the new patch notes

[remote shuttle]

It does iirc

[wicked urchin]

11.7 isn't tomorrow

[worn ivy]

Where is 2 moro changes than

Where is subtlety buffs ?

[wicked urchin]

there aren't any

[sacred yarrow]

tomorrow changes? where said there'd be changes

[gleaming geyser]

It doesn't reduce agro range bro. 🙂 Throws a distraction, attracting the attention of all nearby monsters for 10 seconds. Usable while stealthed.

[worn ivy]

Why so much hate to subtlety

[sacred yarrow]

[summer mica]

its not hate maybe, rather the incompetence of the single dev working on sub id assume

[haughty mural]

It’s neither

Sub just doesn’t matter

[summer mica]

getting replaced with somth new in midnight huh

too bugged to fix

[haughty mural]

WW is as bugged as sub if not even more

We are not the victims of a great conspiracy

Just a little bit undertuned

[keen dome]

100%, yeah

[haughty rose]

i just don't understand why blizz just won't buff us
i mean there has to be a reason why all the stats are telling we are undertuned and they just won't at least buff a couple abilities by a couple percent. surely that doesn't need too much testing right?

[haughty mural]

Maybe they just stopped releasing tuning till .7
Maybe they work on tuning for that patch right now

[haughty rose]

they tuned a couple specs 2 weeks ago

[sacred yarrow]

heavily assume its this. If not, what else could it be? (copium)

[ashen dock]

could also be they dont want to scuff MDI

minimal in the grand scheme of things but

[haughty mural]

Would be a good point, but mdi is on tournament servers so I think they are independent

[void hound]

preach

[haughty mural]

We need to stop exaggerating in this channel…
Tuning will come sooner or later 👍

[wide kernel]

so

how optimal is it to swap to alchemical chaos for the 5 minute potion and then back to vers pot in keys?

[tribal blade]

honestly never even thought of that

but it would end up being extremely expensive

the only flask swapping i've seen around is people swapping to vers just for hard encounters

[wide kernel]

it would?

[limpid sage]

you could drink a r1 alchemical

[wide kernel]

about 6k per dungeon or something

thats for r3's

for r2' / r1 its like 2k

[tribal blade]

it would only really be worth doing in high keys, at which point you're using R3s

in lower keys who honestly cares about gaining a small amount of damage haha

[haughty mural]

I just use vers

[tribal blade]

i'm guessing the gain would be overall quite small

[haughty mural]

Always

As sub

[tribal blade]

yeah i also just always use vers as sub

gives you static DR too

[haughty mural]

Ye

Chaos as sin

[tribal blade]

yeah chaos really good for sin

[wide kernel]

well apparently in raid chaos is better because you get it with every potion

so its better everytime you use a potion in keys which is 6x a dungeon

[haughty mural]

It is still marginal

[wide kernel]

as sub

[haughty mural]

I also can parse well with vers and weaker potions

[wide kernel]

yeah i think its pretty marginal too

[haughty mural]

But you do you

[tribal blade]

i'm not sure if chaos is better in raid, you roll haste and it's kinda gg

[wide kernel]

but if this was not a flask and instead some other thing that read "this is off the gcd and increases your damage" would you use it?

[tribal blade]

rolling haste on chaos kinda negates the gain you get from stronger pot i would imagine

[wide kernel]

i asked this too, apparently it is better

[tribal blade]

i just run with vers, it's more stable

[haughty mural]

I’ll still use just vers on sub

[tribal blade]

when it comes to stuff like this there's different schools of thought

the rank 1 sub rogue, that russian dude, he was using windsinger instead of legendary in his ring because he didn't like the rng

(this was before the nerf to legendary)

[wide kernel]

i'm not suppose to use windsinger?

[tribal blade]

right now you are because they nerfed legendary

this is before the nerf

[wide kernel]

i see

[tribal blade]

he ate the simmed dps loss to have more stable dps

[wide kernel]

thats kind of why i run human

[tribal blade]

because low rolling randomly in M+ was bad in his mind

[wide kernel]

instead of orc

[warm marlin]

I looked into chaos variance and it was around the same as vers or mast flask

[tribal blade]

i think it's one of those "don't think too hard about it" situations

[wide kernel]

yeah i agree its not a big deal

[warm marlin]

Pot will give you a flask’s worth of stats anyway

[wide kernel]

just wondering if i want to do it though

[warm marlin]

50% of the time you get 2 flasks

Big value

[short radish]

i know its keys but

i feel this is very applicable

[haughty mural]

[wide kernel]

yeah

i just grinded my crests for the evening tho so why not talk about it

[warm marlin]

They do flask swap in tgp

Or at least they did last season when I watched more closely

[keen dome]

🔍

Tiny

[wide kernel]

also praydge for me tomorrow to get myth chest piece because i cant cata gloves 😦

[short radish]

https://x.com/_Reloe/status/1830392196752683195

Reloe (@_Reloe)

wow players will spend 2weeks optimizing gearing and being feared about crafting anything because it could lose them 0.1% dps but then not spend a single minute on preparing for a raid fight.

X · Sep 1, 2024, 11:48 PM

[keen dome]

Haha, thank you

[short radish]

np

[keen dome]

Also that's some big truth

[wide kernel]

in principle i agree yeah theorycrafting just puts you behind in practice

but both is better

[lilac stag]

You’d get a bigger dps bump playing or than any flask fuckery.

[tribal blade]

^ this is the actual tech

[wide kernel]

i play sin for some keys yes

[haughty mural]

I hate doing so little boss dmg tho

[bleak night]

just only show overall details

[haughty mural]

Based

[lilac stag]

Go FI. Drop vanish. That’s the play even with shit tanks.

[haughty mural]

Is it that much better tho?

I tried yesterday without tea in a pug

Was meh

[lilac stag]

from the 3 keys I did yes. No tea is less ST dmg

[wide kernel]

how much boss damage are we talking

[haughty mural]

Didn’t try without vanish yet

Yea no tea was kinda ankward in ST

[lilac stag]

They’re pugs so idk. Was like maybe just below the other 2 depending on boss or if I needed to blow DM because the pack infront of the boss.

instead of being 25% below

[wide kernel]

yeah but the meta classes dont have good ST lol

[lilac stag]

my team is basically done with keys and so am I. No more vault upgrades.

[wide kernel]

dk is like 25% behind sub in ST still no?

[lilac stag]

Not playing with meta specs

[wide kernel]

what boss did you do?

[lilac stag]

workshop, dark flame and mecha

[wide kernel]

how much on 2nd boss dfc

[haughty mural]

Alright, gonna try this evening

[lilac stag]

I’m on my phone. Don’t know and don’t care that much. It’s was noticeably better than vanish tree. Play around with it.

[haughty mural]

Else I’ll just play cleave

Thx anyway

[lilac stag]

if I never step in another key this season it’ll be perfect

You can hit a training dummy

And see what you think

[wide kernel]

i mean maybe i saw shindigg get rank 1 top parse as sin so

maybe there is truth to sin having good ST now

[lilac stag]

whatever that means, idk

[wide kernel]

top has a lot of bosses in it and not that much aoe

[lilac stag]

You have cleave adds every boss. The mini bosses are the slow points.

[wide kernel]

FI defintely seems like a good talent though, i tried speccing out of it once and it was like 10% dps loss at the time

[dreamy badger]

You can just skip them

[haughty rose]

am i right with the assumption that each character only gets 3 items to buy with dinar?

if yes are there things that make more sense in buying? i was thinking of getting the pacemaker trinket next but then i saw "only 9 per customer" which means 3 items so i'm not sure if i should safe them for the dagger if i ever kill rik or even for HoC if i ever kill bandit

might be a dumb question but i'm always extra careful with limited resources

[keen dome]

It's 3 items, yeah.

[haughty mural]

Also depends if you’re multispeccing or not

[lilac stag]

also depends what content you’re clearing

I’ll buy mythic HoC since it’s good on both. Then maybe magnet. Mythic pacemaker isn’t on my needs list.

[haughty mural]

I hope I’ll clear bandit with pugs

Else im stuck with heroic hoc

[native zodiac]

That is a difficult task

[short radish]

[fallow nimbus]

Is magnet that good?

[short radish]

[short radish]

no

why would you even ask that

[fallow nimbus]

Because scath said he would buy magnet

[short radish]

wait

why would scath say that

[fallow nimbus]

For assa maybe?

This channel is half doom, half copium and half assa players disguised as sub

[short radish]

yeah but its not even that good for assi

is it?

[bleak night]

its ok but certainly not buy worthy

i think outlaw likes it

[keen dome]

I don't know what i'll buy now I have Heroic HoC

Probably Mythic signet for Assa

And then who knows

[bleak night]

cloak for transmog

[keen dome]

Maybe yeah

Can't buy anything useful from the raid 'cos I only have access to heroic and I can't get any kills higher than Cauldron so it's pretty useless haha

But at the same time I'm 682 so it's pretty whatever

[haughty mural]

Im also stuck on 4/8 since my raid disbanded till next season weeks ago

[haughty rose]

i only play sub. i don't even play an alt

[haughty mural]

That’s why I cope i can kill bandit in a pug

Kek

[haughty rose]

i never set foot into mythic but i also never tried. wanna change that now

[keen dome]

I could sim and see if anything beats Pacemaker 684 I guess but eh

[haughty mural]

Maybe I’ll also get signet for assa m+

[keen dome]

I'm a huge believer in pugging content but even I just think that's unlikely haha

Maybe if you could find another group still progging and sub in on Bandit?

[haughty mural]

Most of them wanna recruit long term

Tried that

[keen dome]

Yeah

[haughty mural]

But I’m loyal and wanna stay where I am

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[haughty mural]

We just had some mishaps in recruiting this season and few unpredictable ones stepping away
Suddenly you are too short a roster

[short radish]

why

if you want to do more bosses

then join a better guild

you can still do keys with the lads

[keen dome]

Some people value their community or guild more though

[haughty mural]

You are not wrong @short radish and I know it’s on me
I’m also not complaining

Still thinking if I wanna leave or nah
I always think the time as I was chasing CEs no matter what is gone 😄 if that makes sense

[keen dome]

I think there's something interesting with the expectations of Mythic raiding and the whole "join a better guild"

(Which in a lot of ways wouldn't be as big an issue if they got rid of the lockout..)

[fallow nimbus]

Lock out needs to go

[short radish]

yeah theyre outdated

[fallow nimbus]

I am saying this as an CE raider

[keen dome]

Ye, 100%

[haughty mural]

Keep it for rwf maybe

And get rid of it afterwards

[short radish]

i dont think any reasonable person supports lockouts

[haughty mural]

Or get rid of it altogether

[short radish]

yeah

keep it for HoF

[keen dome]

If you simply swap the Mythic lockout to work like Heroic, you'd solve 90% of the issues surrounding Mythic accessbility and raiding enviroments imo

[short radish]

makes sense there

then after it's like whatever