subtlety

[fleet wharf]

is it just randomly taking damage while you're using it?

[lucid jackal]

Even without bugs it's just a terrible ability

Randomly teleporting around the target on a 20~ second cooldown is just insanity

and then also, theres bugs, where you will DC in certain spots

Theres bugs where you will clip thru the terrain

Theres fights where u literally just cant press KS, like mythic sprocket, like a lot of mythic gally and mugzee

[night sparrow]

mugzee tp on bombs with ks ? lol

[brittle plinth]

Outlaw does look fun

Absolutely more than sin

[lucid jackal]

It is, and then killing spree

[fleet wharf]

Yea, it seems a bit grief to be playing sub on lot of bosses now

[lucid jackal]

I mean I usually play outlaw on farm but killing spree is just not a real wow ability

[fleet wharf]

arent there variants that don't run KS for outlaw?

[night sparrow]

rework all rogues visuals please

and sounds

[brittle plinth]

It's just weird to give up control and placement for that long. Demolish is similar but you don't move.

[lucid jackal]

They are a lot worse

[night sparrow]

like I dont feel like hiting anything with black powder for example

[lucid jackal]

Meh, I've always liked that rogue visuals aren't that flashy

[fleet wharf]

i feel rick is a good fight to be sub for prog, but the last 3 bosses all seem to require execute ability, so don't you basically have to play assa?

[dry plank]

Bad designed abilities is generally rogue feature

[warm marlin]

Sub was completely fine on bandit and gallywix

[lucid jackal]

I mean we killed gally over a month ago so it doesn't really matter what I play at this point

For early prog, sub was better for every fight except mugzee

[fleet wharf]

but what about shitters like me?

i see

[lucid jackal]

Yeah probs just play assa, it's fun

[fleet wharf]

"fun"... yes... fun...

[lucid jackal]

Or just force sub and accept its worse

its ur 2 choices

[warm marlin]

iirc bandit's execute phase isn't even 2minutes long

sub probably does around equal damage in that phase anyway

it did for me last reclears when i swapped between them

[fleet wharf]

so the logic for bandit is you get a lot more control over add burst right?

as sub*

[night sparrow]

yes

but sin tstill better 😦

[lucid jackal]

ya u can move ur symbols and dances to each reel assistant

[warm marlin]

yea if ur struggling to kill reel assistants or still doing the add spawn strat sub is much better

[fleet wharf]

I'm guessing it's similar reasoning for gally too for sub vs assa right?

[warm marlin]

gally is whatever its a mechanics fight

[lucid jackal]

at this point not really, I'd just say sin is better

[warm marlin]

sub is tankier which is nice

[lucid jackal]

but gally is such an easy fight it legit doesnt matter

boss just dies

[fleet wharf]

i am bad, can you elaborate how sub is tankier?

[warm marlin]

vers, ephemeral whatever it's called that gives healing taken increased, fade to nothingness dr

[hazy breach]

Sub gets the bottom one an 1 of the top ones of these

Which gives tankyness

[fallow nimbus]

Sectec without a cd doesn't mean it's spamable, what i meant is you get 1 sectec per dance

[hazy breach]

Assa's tree does not. All assa gets is twice the leech from leeching poison

Also sub tends stack more vers, so thats another 5-10%

[lucid jackal]

It lowk doesn't matter tho

Just learn to enjoy sin thats my suggestion to ppl on prog

It's easy, it's fairly fun in its current form

Sin is like, pretty good, while sub is like one of the worst specs in the game

So unless ur on farm or u really dgaf, I wouldn't bother with sub atm sadly

[night sparrow]

new meta

[hazy breach]

No flag no bueno

[night sparrow]

no sectec no blades

trust me

[hazy breach]

Sectech is the least important out of those 3

[night sparrow]

I guess so

[fleet wharf]

Doesnt flag get significantly weaker too without blades?

[night sparrow]

Sim yourself if you dont trust me, since I did that talent tree I earned the right to get benched

[fleet wharf]

I dont need any help getting benched, thanks

[keen dome]

All hail the mighty goremaw

Should've taken tornado though

[night sparrow]

you'd gain too much dmg by doing so

:<

[keen dome]

Not if you used it exclusively in ST

[night sparrow]

oh right

genius

[brittle plinth]

I tried it, it's pretty dull imho. But that being said I'm not a m raider and have no goals past M12, so not really locked out of any spec.

[short radish]

we have passive 25-30% DR for just existing

10-15% from vers

5% from this

10% from this

random 5% DR here as well from phys stuff

its kinda nutty

[brittle plinth]

And the feint you pop everytime you send any CDs cause Jesus takes the wheel

[hazy breach]

Thats assa too though

[short radish]

feint works on more things than it should

[fleet wharf]

Feint feels so nice to have as a mitigation tool

[short radish]

and outlaw but we don't talk about them

[winter junco]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/augmentation-leaves-the-last-spot-the-war-within-season-2-dps-rankings-for-376872

Chat wellness check

[young path]

The idea of a support spec beating a dps spec at dps is the pinnacle of incompetence creep and the dev team….

[tepid trellis]

[young path]

Slow, persistent… but present… now manifesting to the forefront

Enjoy everyone!

[sacred yarrow]

pls blizz, may I have some dps ;_;

[brittle plinth]

Perma tricks is better utility than anything Aug can bring. It's our fault for not understanding and using it.

/s

[left ledge]

Yeah you can have some dps

Just stop playing this clearly abandoned spec

[fleet wharf]

guys we beat balance druid in single target damage

[left ledge]

We don’t

The reason we are higher on boss damage overall is because we don’t swap off the boss

And they send starfalls

[honest void]

the only thing sub beats are the not the worst spec allegations

[left ledge]

It’s not beating those either right now

Or that sentence confuse me

I need just detach from this spec

[brittle plinth]

Lots of dodge

[fallow nimbus]

Man, we should all come together and don't generate any sub logs for 1 week, to set a statement

[void ocean]

way ahead of u

[fallow nimbus]

Yeah, but i mean all

[void ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/oh-no-oh-no-anyway-gif-18887547

blizz office

[left ledge]

Yeah I’m not sure who’s playing sub

Or why

Bots?

[void ocean]

i do on reclears sometimes

we still do hc for rep

i switch to sub for shits n giggles

[left ledge]

I see

But on mythic

Who’s playing the spec

[void ocean]

did sub last time we recleared rik

[fallow nimbus]

I do because i am crazy

[void ocean]

which is like 2 weeks ago

[left ledge]

Is sub even better on rik at this point

I wouldn’t be surprised if assa is better

[void ocean]

dunno

didnt test

[left ledge]

Let’s see

[fallow nimbus]

Tanks don't move rik at all

[left ledge]

Yeah

Assa is better

[void ocean]

makes sense since at this point barrels r like deleted

[left ledge]

There is legitimately no reason to ever touch this spec

[void ocean]

so not switchin aint issue anymore

[left ledge]

It’s ok

I’ve come to accept this spec should just be deleted

[lilac stag]

Play it on reclears because it’s “fun” and you can hold it over everyone else in raid when you beat them on the meters

[left ledge]

You only need to ensure someone dies to beat them

[fallow nimbus]

But when you do it without them dying it's hilarious

[burnt sable]

is it dumb to macro shadow blades and flag together?

ok

[void ocean]

Timed Top 12 as sub, wasnt even the worst dps... life's good

[keen dome]

High5 buddy

I did all 12's today and I wasn't last on DPS once.

[proper latch]

How the fuck did I lose 300k dps on Cauldron? Is it the SecTec clones thing and the logger being too far from me?

[keen dome]

Probably

[void ocean]

what do u mean lose

comparing to details?

[proper latch]

In details it's 2.5

In logs it's 2.2

[void ocean]

u have that footnote in logs it sazs it doesnt count dmg on those lil shits

[proper latch]

You mean monkeys?

Or toys?

[void ocean]

Damage done to Tiny Torq and Fun-Size Flarendo is excluded.

dunno what that shit is but...

u have the link "view the unfiltered dmg"

see if that matches

[lucid jackal]

yes

[proper latch]

It does not

But ty for suggestion

Filtered and unfiltered are the same

[lucid jackal]

its the logger being too far away

Thats the reason

[proper latch]

Rip my orange parse I guess

[void ocean]

yea, i guess those r those toys u kick on mythic, that cant be 300k for sure

[haughty rose]

i'm in a +12 group now and 3 people joined and left seconds later. i assume because they saw i'm a sub lol

[void ocean]

i remember being cheated by logs on Kurog kill, WCL decided to count dmg on adds only up to some point...

[void ocean]

LMAO

i mean, u can see specs right from the lfg

[haughty rose]

even tho i'm not the leader?

[void ocean]

u hover the mouse u see all specs

[haughty rose]

ah

anyway i checked one guy who was a hunter and i out dps'd him on overy single boss in LoU HC lol

[void ocean]

like this... now maybe this is the addon im having for LFG, not sure

[haughty rose]

oh yeah nah you right

it's even completely obvious lmao

[lilac stag]

That’s PGF

[void ocean]

aye

[wispy bolt]

kingsbane makes 0 sense to me, the ST damage is so garbage either way

[left ledge]

Wrong channel and incorrect take

[hazy breach]

Perfect take, KB stinky

[left ledge]

KB is very strong during deathmark

You can see this by looking at damage breakdown

Alone sure it’s not great

[wispy bolt]

in keys i just dont see the point. maybe at 18s you should but at that point swap arcane and blast instead

[left ledge]

Oh for keys

You just play bleed unless you need to have some more ST

[wispy bolt]

bleed for lifge i guess

[hazy breach]

I mean its just green eviscerates

Same as on zul, except its green

[wispy bolt]

bad news is bleed does tanbk damage is ST

[left ledge]

Yes

That’s assa though

[wispy bolt]

KB does slightly more than tank damage LMAO

[left ledge]

Outlaw is the play if you want decent ST

In keys

[wispy bolt]

wheres my 50% evis buff

lemme play sub

[hazy breach]

Idk people just exaggurate, youre still doing noticeably more than tanks

[left ledge]

Yeah I mean you do maybe 1.5

[hazy breach]

You can play more ST focused if you want

[wispy bolt]

at that point just play mage tho

[hazy breach]

Which is what most people do, but idk overall seems the same anyway

[wispy bolt]

actual useful ST

[hazy breach]

So does assa

[left ledge]

Well assa isn’t there to do ST

For what it’s worth

The funnel is still decent on assa

So if anything gets pulled into a prio target

Assa has some really good damage

Pure ST in keys is just not Assa’s job

[hazy breach]

its fine

Top logs in workshop for example do like 1.8-1.9m on last boss (when its a 6 min encounter)

Which is fine

[haughty rose]

don't think i ever saw myself doing 3 22m sec tec hits

[left ledge]

Those logs are running the hybrid builds I’m pretty sure

You are more likely at 1.5 in bleed

I would be genuinely surprised if they managed 1.9 with bleed

[hazy breach]

No hybrid does shit too

Its the FI one people are using

Idk its mostly like 1.7 or so with bleed

In my experience

[left ledge]

Oh yeah it is FI

[lilac stag]

The what one?

[vale pine]

wathcing mdi its such a shame that arcane is basically at the spot/niche subtlety had

[slate marlin]

Sub cant have funnel bc its op

better give that to arcane

[vale pine]

and some other specs too ^^

[slate marlin]

Assa

Aff lock

Are there more funnel specs?

[left ledge]

Forced induction

Instead of double vanish

[hazy breach]

Arcane and assa are the biggest funnelers

Enhance does ok too

Arcane is pretty much what we want sub to be in keys

[slate marlin]

Yep

[hazy breach]

But it is what it is

[slate marlin]

would love to be an absolute turbo prio nuke in cds

Well i guess it would be close to that with better tuning

evis is just very weak

[hazy breach]

Wouldnt be much funnel really

Or well, if we were deathstalker ig

[slate marlin]

Not funnel

but big prio

Amazing st

Deathstalker would be good, its just so trash to play

shame, i love the lore behind it

[hazy breach]

They could make some minor changes and it wouldnt be that trash

[slate marlin]

Oh for sure

but tab targetting to apply mark to other tsrkets in aoe

is a nono

[hazy breach]

DN working on BP and its instantly gg

[slate marlin]

Easy fix

idk if it would be as fun as trickster cdr

but has more purple

[fallow nimbus]

just some qol and a little buff, like give us some scraps and we would be happy, but no we get nothing

i'm this close to speccing assa and ruining their statistics

[worn ivy]

-Rogue-
Subtlety damage inscreased all abilities by 5%
TFD now resets immidietly entering stealth
Fixed a bug where secret technique clones bugging out some boss encounters.
flaggelation is now 2 charges ( was1 )

I saw it

In my dreams.

[vale pine]

why flagellation charges?

flagellation should be a buff on you

secret should be aoe not targeted

there is a lot of qol which could make subtelty more appealing and fun

but in the end we need to wait for our turn, maybe next patch or next xpac

[worn ivy]

Maybe next week ?

[junior prawn]

Maybe in WoW 2

[vale pine]

in the meantime, its best to just enjoy the monotony of playing assassiantion each patch everywhere

[sullen hare]

• Subtlety Rogue

-Secret Technique damage lowered by 1%
-Backstab damage increased by 27%
-Black Powder damage increased by 15%

I seen it in my nightmares

[worn ivy]

Ahahah

[coarse hound]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

"Blizzard tracks WoW's "escape rate," the number of bugs that make it into the wild, he said. The team wants that rate to be in the "low single digits" on all the pieces of data touched in any given patch" well its easy to do that if you don't count any existing bugs, Eleem's sheet has over 20 for sub alone lol

[left ledge]

The silence is just insane idk

They can’t even tell us that they acknowledge the state of sub

Not even a

“Hey we WILL finish the spec eventually”

Just nothing

Sub is the only reason I played rogue, another season of this and I think it’s over for me

[swift tinsel]

it would honestly go a long way

[brittle plinth]

The only fix I'd accept for sub is the ability to generate exponential threat with tricks at the top dps player in the run.

[swift tinsel]

to just get that kind of message

[lilac stag]

You want a message on stuff they won’t follow up on?

[swift tinsel]

then again they can say whever they want

[left ledge]

I meme a lot but I genuinely have the most fun on WoW playing sub rogue

[brittle plinth]

Same

[keen dome]

It's what it is. Blizz'll do something or they won't.

[left ledge]

Assa and outlaw just don’t scratch that itch

[brittle plinth]

Should we start a coordinated in game ticket campaign?

[swift tinsel]

this, when sub is less fun I play less wow

[left ledge]

To make matters worse they take things that were once unique to sub and just give it to others

[brittle plinth]

It worked really well for shadow priest in wotlk classic (jk they ignored it)

[left ledge]

So I just feel like I’m playing the experimental unfinished spec

All the time

[lilac stag]

You’re better off just quitting than waiting to find your glass slipper in blizzard and giving this spec attention.

[left ledge]

Since when did everyone become a 1.5 min exactly

[brittle plinth]

MM with new bug fix is 50s

[left ledge]

Why is funnel so strong on other specs when it was subs niche that got deleted from one fucking bfa boss

[swift tinsel]

current plan until seeing how things are when 11.2 drops and I decide if its worth resubbing

[left ledge]

Why are our talent variations basically between rotten/finality and tfd/wm

And both options are fucking terrible

Wm feels like nothing

Tfd is bugged out the ass

[swift tinsel]

bc it basically is nothing lol

[left ledge]

Then rotten and finality are forgettable

Like genuinely wtf

We’re back at square one of gloomblade build

Except we do not damage

0 variation but with 0 dps

[lilac stag]

because the base spec still has glaring issues that are bandaid fixed by trickster, which has its own set of issues.

[left ledge]

It’s just insane

The biggest thing sub got this expac

Was having RS not fuck our combo points

[keen dome]

Getting the charge that killed us and then having it finally fixed to not kill us was pretty big

A microcosm of Sub issues

[left ledge]

I honestly would’ve preferred the choice to turn it off or on

I used the coup charge quite a bit in NP

Esp on queen

But w.e people generally didn’t like it

Can’t wait for next season to roll around with another set of disappointment for sub rogue while assa is bottom for 2 weeks before getting buffed to infinity

[keen dome]

It'll be the Sub season. Ethereal theme'd. Reworked Sub. Playable ethereals (for me only). Cool purple abilities.

[lean cradle]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[dry plank]

Peak design/development. Create an issue -> wait 6 month till people will be frustrated -> fix issue (seeee we are working on your class)

[waxen geode]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[fleet wharf]

Is it not advised to play sub in dungeons if there are no shamans in the group?

[formal helm]

wdym

[open vortex]

It feels worse but you still can

[pliant topaz]

https://tenor.com/view/rocket-copium-cope-meme-token-gif-582361001471231527

to the moon baby

[fleet wharf]

thats what I thought too

[brittle plinth]

Shamans do so much threat, your tricks is actually useful killing them earlier.

[wide kernel]

Shaman is <10% warrior and monk are both around 5%

What you shouldn't do is play sub in a caster comp

[hazy breach]

Nah shaman is about 5% too

[wide kernel]

No? When I simmed shaman was like 150k, warrior/monk were 80-100k

[fleet wharf]

go play assa in caster comp?

[wide kernel]

But multiplicative nature of that means it's less I think

[fleet wharf]

but i dunno assa does good overall but the boss damage is so low

[wide kernel]

Yeah bleed is ass

[hazy breach]

You can swap to more ST talents if you want

[wide kernel]

Just don't play melee in caster comps is what I do

[hazy breach]

But idk i dont find bleed to be that horrible in ST

[wide kernel]

I get like 2.3 on a boss like swamp face at 670ilvl

As sub

So how does darkest night work, if you don't use the max cp evis right away, do you just lose it?

[hazy breach]

No, the buff just stays

But you dont get the mark on the enemy

[wide kernel]

So at any point during those 30 seconds if I use max cp evis I'll get it?

[hazy breach]

Well yes

But not having the mark is awful

[wide kernel]

Right

[hazy breach]

Like almost all of the power of the hero talent comes from the mark

So not having it up sucks real bad

[wide kernel]

Having trouble tracking which ability needs to be max cp kinda but then I just a thought i never see darkest night

I was thinking of maybe learning DS sub for wherever that might be optimal after I learn more sin

Hero spec is a joke though. Worst 2 target in the game

[tribal blade]

you get that high ST on bosses yes

but you are gonna do WAY lower aoe than bleed

netting runs taking generally longer playing sub over sin

@hazy breach just wiped on 2nd boss of ML because one of the adds didn't die fast enough, literally my first time seeing that happen

eternal pain and suffering

this is phys comp too, we should have outrageous damage

^ oh that's earthrager dmg

[velvet mountain]

Hunter prolly tunneling boss no? Only hitting when they get close together enough for trick shots?

[hazy breach]

Oof

[velvet mountain]

Or prolly just kiting the add being a pia

[tribal blade]

he said he griefed his cds

i'm not exactly sure how, mostly likely he sent them when the dmg amp earthrager wasn't up

but he also wasn't doing any boss dmg too, so i have no idea wtf happened

[velvet mountain]

Makes sense. Bring a ranged that has to plant/cast can be touch n go with an add perma focused to u

[tribal blade]

yeah i always swap to crippling and throw out as many kidneys as i can to help out

[hazy breach]

I mean the adds dont move that much with crippling

Especially not with shiv

[velvet mountain]

True

[hazy breach]

Then theyre rooted for 8 seconds

[velvet mountain]

Binding shot really useful to

[tribal blade]

but he wasn't just a little low, i was basically almost doubling his earthrager dmg haha

BUT WE CARRY ON

no flame to the guy btw, he admitted his mistake

i was just hella confused

[worn ivy]

yo do u know if mind numbing slows the kickable cast only or all ?

channaling etc

[hazy breach]

On "small mobs" it slows everything

On "big mobs" its 50/50 wether it does anything

[graceful rock]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[worn ivy]

i sim higher with this build

play it or not

its the best for M+

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bpZ6EMWjvNDT8oCFqfCyNj

Can call this Brother's build

CAN replace finality with TFD or RS if u really wanna play itr

@vale pine there is no higher simming build than this i think

[crystal kraken]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[worn ivy]

Thoughts?

[spice matrix]

https://tenor.com/view/minor-spelling-mistake-gif-21179057

@vale pine

on broodtwisters line too

[pastel rampart]

didnt cook hard enough, need goremaws + silent storm

[worn ivy]

but it sims higher

in D/slice

[short radish]

ℹ️

[bleak night]

https://tenor.com/view/screaming-caps-scream-internally-gif-12883721

[short radish]

good article though

fuu cooked well

[random comet]

i can tell by the number of typos it was written with true passion

[short radish]

you can really feel the frustration at the "I dont understand why sub is not kept competitive" paragraph

i didnt realise its been 3 seasons of assi dominating

i knew they were strong but didnt feel that bad till now

[wide kernel]

Found a spelling error

[short radish]

there's a few

[worn ivy]

where can read the article

[wide kernel]

Thanks @vale pine for making our frustrations at least visible

[proper latch]

"Give a brief synopsis of your spec's interactions with Hero Talents. Has there been one dominant choice or has it changed each patch? Can a player pick whichever Hero Talent and be successful or is there a major gap in throughput? Does your spec routinely change Hero Talents, or has it been a mostly set-and-forget type of situation?"

@kindred olive I don't think you intended to leave it in the article

[bleak night]

ono

[ebon tiger]

11.2 we're getting kyveza subtlety animations, all the bugs fixed, talent variety, damage buffs, and long arms back. plus new abilities that somehow don't add ability bloat and feel/look great to use

and a raid buff. fuck it

[short radish]

aug will also be deleted in 11.2

[wide kernel]

I did find a major spelling error though and I cannot explain it, fuu repeatedly mentioned some spec called 'rogue'

I'm not sure what that means because the only 'rogue like' class is in the game is called assassination

[wide kernel]

Is that when they fired the rogue dev or something

[worn ivy]

whats the reason this build simming 100k more ? https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bpZ6EMWjvNDT8oCFqfCyNj

[random hare]

Because tfd undersims

Whats this cook my table started to float

[lucid jackal]

This isn't exactly tru tho

The situation with sub rn sucks but I don't really get why we need to just like, stretch the truth

[wide kernel]

Well it has been for m+ yeah?

[worn ivy]

Drop 1 point finality

Or drop rotten for tfd

[lucid jackal]

yeah in M+ its been a lot of sin/otl by the end but sub gets some play early on, at least the past few seasons

[wide kernel]

Depends how mid it is I guess

[short radish]

yeah early on

and then meta settles

and its all jover

[wide kernel]

We are just undertuned atm we actually have a good damage profile, just not enough of it

[lucid jackal]

But in raid, sub has been a very dominant spec for a long time lol

[wide kernel]

To have a good aoe burst and high single target seems like a winner to me

[lucid jackal]

Well sub used to be not bursty, and still was the best spec

I mean at the end of the day its kinda random how good a spec is

Burst might matter, it might not, the spec might be bursty, it might not

The spec might be overtuned, it might not

[tepid trellis]

Finality

[lucid jackal]

But yeah I mean, all of SL, you played sub, every tier of DF, you played sub, except like, season 4 DF

and then you played sub season 1 of TWW

and then u played it early TWW s2

and then they buffed sin xd

its just a bit, ahistoric and dramatic to say the spec hasn't been good is all

Its been the most good rogue spec

[wide kernel]

Arcane is obv better but we are a priority spec as well

[round latch]

Arcane is better than any other spec(most likely)

[shut ridge]

wowhead commenters are not human

this of all things is your main gripe with sub rn?

[rocky ocean]

[quaint lodge]

Dif things matter to diff playere

Guy who does only delves does not give a fuck about m+

[wide kernel]

Well that's what I'm saying, sub actually has a lot going for it. It's overall AoE Is on the lower end of mediocre but it's burst aoe Is quite good.

You shave time off the timer by making the prio target dead, you have good ST etc.

[wide kernel]

Yeah but why would you ever care about dropping threat specifically with shadow dance. Vanish does the same thing, tricks and so much other stuff

[quaint lodge]

know a guy who plays w his healer wife and he gets annoyed abt the same thing

she gets all the aggro suddenly and he cant do much abt it

[wide kernel]

How long does it take to get full value out of sectec?

[hot dagger]

fazed only gives the parry immunity to the raid right? not the damage buff?

[molten citrus]

huh

[round latch]

sub needs some love

[keen dome]

Buff sub. Give us cool Ky'veza animations.

[heady shell]

I have been having a blast with sub rogue and am p much myth gear or crafted gear. I am looking to make an alt just to pass sometime, any advice in anything that would feel similar to sub rogue?

[keen dome]

Another Sub rogue

[molten citrus]

i don't think anything else in the game really feels like sub

sub is very "feast or famine" because its decently paced during CDs and very AFK outside of CDs, but it also has the CDR mechanics around Dance/Tech

some specs that are somewhat similar to rogue are like Havoc DH, Warr, Surv Hunter, WW

[round latch]

sub is veyr unique,closest i can think is ret paladin but still sub is very unique

[molten citrus]

really most melee in general feels similar at a base level

[heady shell]

Interesting gotcha

[tribal blade]

@vale pine DAMMNNNN nice article

popping off

[keen dome]

Seconding, good article. Very big effort considering the current feeling of Sub.

[hot dagger]

From the sub retrospective article: "Fazed - Works not only for the rogue but the entire Raid team, this is a positive bug."

[molten citrus]

yes but what is the question exactly?

oh i think i see what you meant now

like does the damage buff also work for your raid? no

its only the parry

i'm very happy this made it onto our wishlist, great write up @vale pine

[tribal blade]

hrm do we think "slightly increase" or "GREATLY increase"

send sub to the moon

[molten citrus]

i'd be happy if they just reverted the latest nerf it got because of Dust

but i wouldn't be unhappy with the last 2 nerfs it got being reverted

[tribal blade]

anything yeah

honestly just do something

blizz

[keen dome]

Yeah, that'd be a good reverting

It'd go real far

There's so many small little things they could change that'd smooth so much out..

[tribal blade]

blizz doesn't seem to do enough reverting

they keep changing sub with nerfs, and then once it's obvious sub didn't need them or is now behind they don't revert

[tulip gorge]

you don't think they would admit they did something wrong

do you

it's just an ego thing

[tribal blade]

you know i have NO idea what they're thinking, or if it's even on their radar

[tulip gorge]

the only times they reverted something was when there was a huge community backlash

and they lost subs over it

[vale pine]

thanks ❤️

[vale pine]

[merry umbra]

at this point a small buff would just be insulting

[tribal blade]

it looks like you spent a lot of time on this

[vale pine]

haha, at least you know its not written by a ai ^^

[tacit zealot]

why do you think popularity of the spec is so low

[keen dome]

Not enough purple

[magic ruin]

Anyone remember skyfury shaman buff benefit on ST dps for sub? How much % gain/loss

[vale pine]

mainly tuning but also difficulty of execution

[tacit zealot]

a lot of clases with terrible tuning also have higher playtime, atleast in m+, I’m not into raiding

[tribal blade]

it's like roughly 8%, could possibly be more

[keen dome]

Preceived difficulty, fiddly elements that are confusing to new comers, lack of tuning, weird niche that can be done better by others, awkward downtime not being condusive to enjoyable flow to most people, bad animations and lackluster visuals, imo.

[tribal blade]

i for one think it's sometimes more, because i become mega tilted when i play without skyfury

[molten citrus]

the biggest thing is just tuning

[tribal blade]

you can feel the difference

[molten citrus]

not many people play rogue as a whole

many people that do play rogue, just play the best spec

[tribal blade]

i was talking to people i push with today

one is a healer who swapped off rogue because he became too frustrated with the class

and how it plays

[vale pine]

well rogue has 3 specs which do similar things and rogue is already a very unpopular class. This means tuning is even more important.

[tribal blade]

and the other is my guildie who tried dabbled with a bit of rogue and says we're "unneccessarily complicated"

[keen dome]

The Skyfury thing and how it actively changes how the spec feels to play is a pretty good example of the weird, unintutiveness imo.

[vale pine]

Its diffrent on e.g. mage where each of the spec has their niche, so playing all 3 has benefits

[tribal blade]

he said rogue in general is too complex compared to how most other classes play

[vale pine]

like you see in mdi now where all 3 mage specs see play

while for rogue outlaw and subtlety see close to no play

[keen dome]

I always think this is a pretty interesting criticsm because.. Is it? If we broke it all down, I wonder if Rogue would be more complex than say, Shaman or Mage or Warlock or something.

[tribal blade]

people in the rogue discs always say rogue is not hard to play, but all the other people who aren't maining rogue say otherwise

[tulip gorge]

tuning/design issue

[keen dome]

Yeah

[molten citrus]

class needs a complete overhaul if its going to become anything "mainstream" like hunter or paladin

[tribal blade]

i honestly dont know because i mostly 1 trick rogue, so i'm just trusting what other people say haha

[tulip gorge]

assa is utter garbage in pure single target

outlaw is capped

sub is undertuned

[vale pine]

you are correct on this, i also had to re-write a lot of it because my first version was a lot more negative
(not because i needed to but i wanted to keep the general tone positive)

[keen dome]

Yeah, I mean I'm the same. I've played Warrior and Hunter a bit but nothing serious. Guardian is the only spec I play remotely properly and that's like. 5 buttons.

[tribal blade]

you know i can see that, it does look like it's more positive than what you've written in this channel this season haha

[vale pine]

I mean subtlety is fun, but its just left out

[tribal blade]

haha yeah, i've heard wonders about thrash spam

[gritty knot]

These idiots cant even fix sectech on first boss Rookery or other small stuff. Or nimble and fazed. Why would they even bother doing anything at this point. If they don't loose subs over that kind of stuff, they Just don't give a fk

[vale pine]

which is a bad position to be in

[tacit zealot]

I think rogue entrypoint is hard not class in general

Leveling is one of the worst

Which for most people is first thing that kills vibe

[vale pine]

thats correct

the timerunning events did show people playing rogue the least

in part because of the bad leveling experience

[tribal blade]

another big thing that seems to be rogue specific is needing to press your buttons in a very precise order

[vale pine]

i think holding cooldowns is difficult

[tribal blade]

whereas a lot of other specs you can kinda whiff your stuff and put em out of order

and be mostly fine

[vale pine]

and we have multiple cooldowns with charges

[keen dome]

Yeah. Esp with Sub it's very very punishing (albeit less so since the Dust days) to mess stuff up. Which absolutely contributes

[tacit zealot]

I think for sub most people cant get over slow pace outside cds

you have big big high

[keen dome]

You are sitting there for potentially 1:30+ doing tank damage if you mess up a lot. Whereas something like Ret can send and fix it in 30s

[tulip gorge]

that's why I like the class

[tribal blade]

yeah sub is big one this

[tacit zealot]

and then blop

[keen dome]

[tribal blade]

i thought every class played the same way until i heard from my guildie that he couldn't play sin because the rotation was "too punishing"

[vale pine]

its fun to have high highs if you are well tuned

[tribal blade]

"you have to press your buttons in the exact order or you do no damage"

[vale pine]

if your highs are similar to other classes

but your lows are way worse

[keen dome]

The uptime / downtime cycle of Sub is interesting. It's just.. weird.

[merry umbra]

people can't do this for some reason, DF arcane was probably the easiest it's ever been, static with no rotational variance, but people just couldn't do it?

[vale pine]

dance cdr is also rly tight

you get downtime and maybe can't use dance with one symbols now

its not intuitive

[tribal blade]

yeah i've played with a lot of people who fotm rerolled arcane, and they're horrendously bad

[keen dome]

Ideally they just give is an aura buff and maybe address some of the wierder quirks of the spec (and also they kill PV / LS, do something with WM, send Shot in the Dark to the shadow realm and let us use non-daggers in OH by equalizing ST but that's me dreaming)

[tribal blade]

that sounds like another spec that requires pressing your buttons in a precise order apparently

[vale pine]

arcane is very subtlety like

it kind of is what subtlety should be atm

[tribal blade]

i agree sub should basically be the melee version of arcane

[vale pine]

i mentioned it yesterday, its a bit sad to see mdi casters cheer for assassiantion or arcane priority damage

when it was a very clear niche sutbelty got ripped away after having it for a year

[merry umbra]

current arcane is the opposite of that example though 👀 but that iteration had the community perception of hardest spec in the game but it really wasn't

[tribal blade]

yeah prio damage got yoinked from sub /cry

[keen dome]

And then we aren't allowed it because ???

It's dumb.

The frustrating double standard in class design

[tribal blade]

so the trend was "sub is too strong at funnel" and it got basically removed

[tulip gorge]

because you had one fight in BFA where you dumpstered everyone

[merry umbra]

i like the idea of 5 target cap specs having funnel to make up for it

[tribal blade]

then they started gradually giving more and more specs more funnel, and it started getting to big levels of funnel similar to original sub

[keen dome]

And our punishment for this was Sub being broken for an entire expansion lmao

[tribal blade]

but for some reason they never gave sub it's original funnel back now that it's deemed acceptable by the devs

[keen dome]

Yeah

But we got blade flurry

that is weird and buggy

[tribal blade]

i remember realz said combo was never coming back because it was too strong

and broke the game

but there are specs right now with insane funnel

breaking the game

so there's a disconnect there

[merry umbra]

they don't care unless it breaks raid

[keen dome]

Double standard, yeah. Like, it absolutely is because of times changing, designs changing and one thing said once isn't absolute and can change but

[tribal blade]

that's a good point

[keen dome]

It's frustrating!

Also ye agreed

[merry umbra]

just RNG fight design for that lmao

[tribal blade]

but still, seems like hypocrisy

[tulip gorge]

sub copies outlaw, assa gets sub's old niche

[merry umbra]

if you get fucked or not

[tulip gorge]

get rekt

[tribal blade]

don't forget sin also got outlaw's bladeflurry but better 😉

[tulip gorge]

ah true mb

just give assa shadow dance back

sub also got outlaw's dreadblades

[keen dome]

when do we get the gun

[tribal blade]

@vale pine by the way it's funny you said trying to be more positive, literally last night i wrote this on a note on my computer

i just wanted to write it down to try to keep it in the forefront of my mind

[tacit zealot]

in the end probably the only truth is, not enough popularity yields to all bad design decisions

[keen dome]

Arguing with people online is fun though

[merry umbra]

i think sub just needs it's flexibility burst niche emphasized more

[tribal blade]

haha it can be

[merry umbra]

and tuning..

[tulip gorge]

the only thing stopping me from playing sub is just tuning

gameplay wise it's very fun

[tacit zealot]

I think sub just needs more energy during downtime 😂

Adhd inside me dies

Thats a me problem ofcourse, obv you guys like it you are patient

[merry umbra]

they could decrease backstab energy cost by 90% and it'd probably be like a 1% dmg gain

kinda agree

[tribal blade]

there's 2 different camps on that

some people don't like the downtime, some like it because it creates a cool loop of going nuclear turbo in cds and then chilling out during downtime

i honestly think we could use a bump in our downtime dps

[tacit zealot]

I’m fine with dps cool and design of high risk cd hogh reward

[tribal blade]

if blizz is unwilling to let sub burst as hard as it should

[tacit zealot]

But you still need some filler to do something

Something like steady shot

Its not meaningful

But you have something to press and get a bit of something even small bit

[tribal blade]

it's a strange sitiuation because blizz very clearly doesn't want sub to burst as high as is warranted

because our downtime is that bad

but if we don't burst high enough, the downtime just drags the spec down

[keen dome]

haha

I like the downtime because it gives me time to post

You can fit a LOT of bee puns into a Cindermead run if you play Sub, guys

[vale pine]

it is a good reminder to try to stay kind, i got reminded of it recently from one software engineer i follow on twitter with this message

[keen dome]

Being kind is free, and good.

[tribal blade]

yeah! i have a tendency to become very cynical

so i'm trying to avoid going there too much

[proven plover]

Great article @vale pine! Just noticed this small typo under the trickster section

[silent condor]

Morning folks, is sub far behind sin in m+ or competitive? Talking 13/14ish keys

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sweet turret]

sub guys, I just returned after 1,5 years of not playing
I have seen various builds and im wondering.. does Dark Brew never has his place? is it bad?

[void ocean]

oh boi

ud be surprised what else is bad 😄

[sly cove]

@vale pine well said as always mate hope we get some spotlight soon

[vale pine]

i think its fine to have a slow pacing during downtime.
There are just a lot of things which punish inexperienced players and often even experienced ones.
I try to name some things:

• Shadow techniques requires auto attacking, so if you are not in melee you actually lose quite a lot of output
• The shadow dance cd is high if you don't get constant cdr from using finishers, this leads to desyncs of cooldowns
• TfD timer is such a mess, you often get the benefit delayed, its a talent which people don't understand
• You can't press stealth in shadow dance, and shaodw dance reduces your thread, so solo content can feel random (why did healer bran get aggro suddenly?)
• ....
  Its just a big list of things that makes the spec hard to understand and many can be somewhat easy fixed

[vale pine]

oh thanks will correct in a moment

[vale pine]

happy that you liked the article

[void ocean]

"three consecutiveseasons the best spec", space is missing, while u r on it @vale pine good read, so far 🙂

[frozen lichen]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[coarse bolt]

reading the retrospective, thank you Fuu for taking the time to write it

I can't remember is current Gormaw's bite similar to the artificat ability, for some reason I have almost no recollection of what it did

[tacit zealot]

While I agree with most of it, I don’t like putting tuning or output into class design talks, if design is garbage tuning it up is not a fix

Thats just shadowing

[brave moth]

Letss goo. We are not fogotten.

Btw can I check find weaknes uptime in logs ?

[vale pine]

you can, need to check debuffs on the boss

[vale pine]

i am with you, but the sad trueth is that tuning is a very important factor in how rewarding something feels.
Having a engaging gameplay loop feels dissapointing if you are only slightly above tanks in damage output, and this is in part the problem we have currently

this is why i spend an entire section talking about tuning and explaining my line of thoughts

gameplay always comes first ofc, i rather play a good designed spec than a one button rotation one

[brave moth]

Okay isnt that supposed to be closer to 100% ?

[vale pine]

yes

[brave moth]

Okayyyyyy. I am doing shit job at keeping it up

[vale pine]

you don't specifically optimize around keeping it up, it should have a high uptime by default especially on single tagrte fights

[short radish]

what i like to do sometimes

is type out a massive paragraph responding to the person

who is being an absolute monkey

then just deleting it

its cathartic and prevents you also bogging down

[tribal blade]

HAHAHA i do that sometimes too

it does actually work

[keen dome]

hell yeah, this works very well

[lilac stag]

Playerbase sources, which is where this article is from, does not mean we are not forgotten by the development team (which is the important one).

[tender grotto]

I just want shadowdust back

[keen dome]

It's similar to those "write a letter to someone" therapy exercises 'cos you just get it all out.

[lilac stag]

Personally it’s not harsh enough. But fuu always tries to see good and I appreciate that.

This spec is an abusive relationship.

[keen dome]

It can only get better.

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/family-guy-peter-griffin-lois-funny-fight-gif-15176970

[bleak night]

my favorite part is where it says sub is the lowest damage excluding aug

[lilac stag]

Yeah. That needs an updated graphic

Actual lowest damage now

Or a “at the time of this writing before Aug was buffed again…

[brave moth]

On Sprocket I have 95% uptime. The 69% was on One Arm. This might be because of the adds not having it

[lilac stag]

Top log on OAB is 88%.

[brave moth]

Okay don't establish how shit I am. Okay??

[vale pine]

probably ye

[solar geode]

thank you for the great article fuu 🫶

[brisk onyx]

talking about solo content, it's also weird that Gloomblade now has to get FW from behind, which makes it lose its competitiveness in solo content.🤡

I 100% remember that it originally could get FW by crit strike at any position

[hazy breach]

So did backstab

[fallow nimbus]

Remove bs, gb baseline and we got rid of 1 bad talent

With the fw fix from all sides ofcourse

[short radish]

[fallow nimbus]

Maybe improved bs changes the fw from gb because janky code

If bs is so iconic then fuck off to classic

[keen dome]

Make it a PvP ability that is a situational massive crit execute

Bam, it's iconic and has it's iconic use and the PvE side can just get the better cooler button

[short radish]

make backstab a finisher

that can be used when boss under 35%

[lilac stag]

make backstab a group healing ability

[tribal blade]

i like the idea of giving sub execute

why not

[short radish]

if we're going to make all teh specs the same

just give it to us

[tribal blade]

make one of our execute abilities banshee's blight

[short radish]

or yeah

replace goremaws bite with banshee blight

[tribal blade]

yeah excatly if sin took everything from sub and outlaw

why not

[lilac stag]

give sub the MM treatment. Bonus on 100-80 and 20-0

[keen dome]

Yeah, give us the dagger effect. It'd make sense

[lilac stag]

emphasize the burst more. Not just the execute

[short radish]

true

[keen dome]

Absolutely, that'd be a really good thing. Esp if it went more into Shadowy themeing

Ky'veza's execute is a neat idea

[tribal blade]

it's so funny they have an actual template they made themselves for sub called kyveza

smile

BUT THEY'RE NOT USING IT

[keen dome]

When an enemy is below 20%, Shadow Dance causes every strike to additionally cause a Shadow Clone to hit for x damage when a finisher is used. Bammo, execute.

Tie it to Dance so it just empowers our Burst with more stuff in a thematic sense.

Call it Shadowy Reaper

[tribal blade]

maybe raise it a tad above 20%

sending dance on mobs low hp in M+ can be kinda troll sometimes

[keen dome]

Sure, I was just thinking about bosses.

25%?

[tribal blade]

honestly dunno, just spitballing 😉

[keen dome]

You could have a 100 - 80% version called Reapers Mark -> Shadowy Reaper. If you hit a mob above 80% it puts a Reaper's Mark on it that increases damage done by X% until 80%, and is then consumed at 25%ish to apply Shadowy Reaper during dance? You could have some neat synergy for the whole fight through it.

Also Regicide should be a button

[tribal blade]

it kinda sounds similar to fatal intent

basically fatal intent activated in dance that does actual dmg lol

[keen dome]

Replace Shuriken Storm with this. You spawn shadow clones that replicate abilities or something

[tribal blade]

i think the worry would be blizz doesn't know how to code clones into the game

that doesn't break the game constantly

[keen dome]

Personally I don't think they should 'cos they're a nightmare.

Instead you just have an animation and a proc

Like, you can achieve everything SecTec does, surely, without the weird pet clones

[tribal blade]

yeah just give sectec a really cool animation you do yourself as a rogue

[keen dome]

But ye; Ky'veza is a template for how you could do Sub if you went more into the Shadowy, Ethereal themeing (which I think they should.) And yeah, absolutely fatal intent except interaction with our kit and rewarding living the whole fight.

[tribal blade]

and the hit sectec does it from you

1 hit

[keen dome]

Yeah

[lilac stag]

You expect the class devs to talk to the raid devs? Did Zul teach us nothing?

[tribal blade]

yeah true lol

[keen dome]

We can dream and I think having a raid boss like Ky'veza is useful because it gives us a practical, visual example to refer to

"Hey, what kind of animations would you want to see?"

"Ky'veza"

[short radish]

makes sense with void expansion as well

[keen dome]

Yeee

Also rename Trickster to Shadowguard or something. Make it the Ethereal tree. Nimble Flurry can just become Etheral Flurry or Nether Flurry or something. Sub gets it as Shadow damage (this would be too strong BUT)

Something like Dark Brew is the kind of design I want to see more of in Sub. It's a relatively simple talent but it is both thematic and neat.

It should just be part of how Sub works, imo. We should deal Shadow damage with posions because we're the Shadowy cool class

Let Sub do that and Assa has Nature poisons

It was something I thought the Legion -> BfA era did well by removing damage poisons from Outlaw / Sub. Making them distinctly Assa's deal.

[round latch]

avatar button/passive trigger fury of the destroyer(proc from fangs of the father) 🤝

or akaari's soul for last tier node

that would work

oh and buff aoe

[haughty rose]

whats that addon that marks priority targets in m+?

[round latch]

without even knowing it marks the targets u need to prio?

[keen dome]

Probably a WA I'd imagine

[round latch]

ah the name

yeah prolly wa

[haughty rose]

idk in priority for example priests always get a skull or an x

when i run my own key they dont which makes me belive its an addon

[round latch]

ik there is automarker

[lilac stag]

it’s a WA

[keen dome]

WA that the group lead has, most likely

[lilac stag]

Just like the color coded plater plates

[keen dome]

There's a few of them I think?

Yeah, same as the plater stuff

[haughty rose]

where can i find that WA?

on wagio i assume i have to know the exact name no?

[lilac stag]

Just search like you would on google

Automarker

Idk make some shit up

[void hound]

NEED the nether assassin hero talent for sub

[merry agate]

we making fan fiction again?

[void hound]

its one way to cope

[merry agate]

[silent condor]

Anyone on this ?

[hazy breach]

a well played assassination is going to do more than a well played sub

[lilac stag]

You’re basically inting with how string assa is

[silent condor]

Okay so there is hope I will push more as sub

[lilac stag]

No

lol

You need a shaman, warrior and a tank with pulls around you to avoid wasted CDs.

And your dmg still going to be behind assa

[keen dome]

You can play Sub but you will have a far better time playing Assa. The damage potential isn't even close.

[fleet wharf]

what's holding sub back though? is it flurry's target cap?

[hazy breach]

Low damage

[keen dome]

Yeah

[hazy breach]

The numbers are just too low

Same in raid

[keen dome]

Buff Sub

[silent condor]

Okay, will Hope for s3 then

[fleet wharf]

I do think more kyveza themed abilities would be pretty dope

[lilac stag]

Every other spec got tuned higher over the season. Sub got nerfs.

[hazy breach]

But like with other things, the differences are often very exxagerated. Its not like youll be doing half the damage playing sub

[fleet wharf]

what do you mean, we still beat balance druid in boss damage.

[silent condor]

Yeah that's the point I would sacrifice 100-200k DPS if sub is that range

[keen dome]

more than that

Sadly

[silent condor]

Sad

[keen dome]

I can consistently do 3.5 - 4m in 12's and then an Assa can easily do 4.5m+ overall. It's really so much stronger (dungeon dependant, of course). Just a lot stronger, better prio, more AoE.

And that gap is only going to become more extreme as the key levels grow higher, I'd guess

[fleet wharf]

what do you play for assa in 12s? full bleed build?

[keen dome]

Yeah I just use whatever the bleed build is.

But I know as you go higher you use some hybrid build for more ST? I don't know, I've not looked into it deeper than bleed fun

[dusty totem]

in +12 bleed is the way

[fleet wharf]

i think they were saying at key level 17 or 18 is when you want to make the switch?

[hazy breach]

Idk you can play pretty much any assa build

But looking at logs were looking at like 300-800 lower for sub than assa on logs, but also worth keeping in mind that its probably less than that

Since most "good players" are playing assa, thus leaving sub even further behind

If youre timing your pulls around sub is going to do acceptable dps, but why bother playing around somebody thats doing fine instead of playing with something that does fine regardless of pulls or great if you pull around it

[brisk onyx]

😭

[tribal blade]

the way i figure it, last season people were playing sin with the same dmg profile as bleed build

huge aoe and lower ST

and sin was still considered a really good spec

[hazy breach]

Ive tried some keys with the "old school" cleave build, without scent and stuff

Some hybrid, some bleed, but its all just very close in overall

[tribal blade]

the 2 places where bleed starts feeling a bit off for me is workshop and rookery

just because of both of those last bosses

[hazy breach]

Idk i just swap to sub for last boss rookery

[tribal blade]

but bleed does fine in the rest of those 2 places

[tribal blade]

after 2nd boss?

[hazy breach]

Ye or if deathmark is up i send on the pack after

[tribal blade]

ah gotcha

i watched a pov of that swap, looks very fast

just hearth to dornogal and the dungeon entrance is a 5 second flight

might possibly try that, doing the last boss as bleed feels turbo dogshit

but there's more optimizing i can do

i already brought up running cleave build to my group, but they said not to worry about it, they can cover ST, and also they really like having iron wire

since we don't have a boomy

[hazy breach]

I know its fine numerically, but man does it feel bad to not have 2nd shiv as bleed

[tribal blade]

yeah it doesn't feel great, it also makes shiv usage quite static because you have to kinda send it on cd

having 2 charges meant you could hold without losing casts

[hazy breach]

Play this and do massive ST

(you do less aoe)

[tribal blade]

how much less, do you know?

holy IC, KB, DTB AND arterial

yeah that's basically almost raid build, looks interesting

[hazy breach]

Depends, sims is like -5% on huge aoe compared to the cleave build and +6% ST

Dslice sims slightly higher than those but idk, its still way worse in sims than hybrid or bleed

[tribal blade]

this would basically reverse the issue bleed has in rookery, become a passenger princess on aoe but get to bosses and annihilate them

[hazy breach]

Its not that low on aoe but ye

[tribal blade]

it honestly looks kinda interesting

i would test this on the dummies to see numbers, but yeah trying to get accurate numbers with execute talents as sin is impossible

[bright sundial]

good morning fellow rogues, hows yall doing and one more thing what yalls opinion on the mid-expansion retro?

[rocky ocean]

[sacred yarrow]

[vale pine]

did you like the article, always happy to hear feedback if you have some

[bright sundial]

oh didnt realize you were the author lmao, I might be dumb

[vale pine]

i also made the hero image for the article ^^

[bright sundial]

but im not truly not qualified to give feedback sense i haven't really main sub or rogue in general, but going over the Wishlist seems like a solid plan if blizz looks at it but hell what do I know

[vale pine]

👍

[haughty mural]

Great article

Exactly how I imagined you’d write it tbh

[alpine wraith]

dont look at the comments tho ahaha

[haughty mural]

What I missed on the wishlist was e.g. addressing the split dmg situation (besides sectech)

[haughty mural]

I’ve read them 😄

[brittle plinth]

@vale pine well written article with great points.

[vale pine]

wdym they are great

[alpine wraith]

the ret pala guy

[alpine wraith]

almost made me cry

[vale pine]

these are perfect

[alpine wraith]

oh yea that one

[vale pine]

people want to get rid of energy since 10 years now

[alpine wraith]

im laughing so hard

[brittle plinth]

The solo delve comment was interesting, I do 11s on my rogue and they're a breeze. Never had an issue as described.

[vale pine]

the issue is not in solo delves

[alpine wraith]

likely the poeple that "do" delves are undergeared

[vale pine]

its when you did the seasonal miniboss

[alpine wraith]

and brann does reset shit

like the fish boss in tak rethan

[brittle plinth]

Ya that's true

[vale pine]

but their comment is fair i did not cover solo content much in the article

[alpine wraith]

you have to get him to stay close tot he wall

[brittle plinth]

Ya it's a good portion of the gameplay loop and exclusive for some ppl

[vale pine]

might think of adding something for solo players next time we have a similar assignment

[alpine wraith]

you can say how our sustain has only gotten nerefed

3 expansions in a row

i miss my boi soothing

[vale pine]

like i did speedrun fungal folly in a few minutes per run season 1

on the highest difficulty

[brittle plinth]

Energy is really only noticable outside all our CDs, but holy shit is it noticable.

[vale pine]

but also i can see how most casuals get completely blasted doing delves

[alpine wraith]

cans still spam delves to gear https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1kpg5na/nonbountiful_t11_delves_may_be_the_best/

just runed->gilded

[brittle plinth]

The fungal ones are the best, pull a bunch. Set off a spore and enjoy the speed clear.

[vale pine]

oh is it uncapped now?

[alpine wraith]

if you are a tank you can just chainpull

yea but the runed

you are running vanilla 11s

so if a day is like the short fungal folly or the undermine one

you can just rush in 3 mins

even with alts

[brittle plinth]

Oh you farm 45 runed and swap for 15 guilded?

[alpine wraith]

yea

[vale pine]

i did like the season 1 versions more

you could cheese a lot

[alpine wraith]

might tell people about that one

tbh with alts doing m+ is a massive PITA

[brittle plinth]

My buddy does one in ringing deeps in 2 mins

[vale pine]

the aoe spores doing zero damage and staying stationary is a big pita

[brittle plinth]

It's hilarious

[vale pine]

downgrade

[brittle plinth]

Didn't play s1

[alpine wraith]

the one in undermine is super fast depending on week too

[brittle plinth]

Which one is the fast one?

[random mason]

Best rogue delve is still underkeep

[vale pine]

undermine seems fastest

[brittle plinth]

Oh when you can stealth past everything?

Loot the boxes

[alpine wraith]

sluice

[brittle plinth]

And canon to boss

[random mason]

And kill 3 big guys yeah

[brittle plinth]

I meant which quest in there's

[alpine wraith]

2 are fast the kill mobs and use transporter

[brittle plinth]

I haven't hit every possible combination yet

[alpine wraith]

and the robot one

[random mason]

Mr delver once u figure out how to do route

[brittle plinth]

I'm going to look into it

[random mason]

But i always get lost cause I don't delve enough

[brittle plinth]

There's got to be a few you can 2 man cheese too

Ones with branching paths

[proven plover]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lucid jackal]

The thing about energy people seem to forget is that energy allows us to have a baseline 1 second GCD at all times

[alpine wraith]

they do forget

because they also go mentally afk when looking at ww and feral somehow

but basically any day there is tak rethan abyss with pheromone

you can just run pop the boxes die on respawn run pop the boxes vanish and do boss

in like 2 mins

[hazy breach]

And whats the point of having energy if it never runs out

[void hound]

cause people actually want to perma press buttons

but they dont phrase it that way

[keen trellis]

When pressing buttons it feels like we do damage

[hazy breach]

My 40k backstabs meaningfully impact my 3M dps

[graceful osprey]

I miss when backstabs sound good and hit hard

[gleaming geyser]

Gey guys random q, on the Big momma fight in floodgate (1st boss) do u open cds on the ads or the burn phase?

[lucid jackal]

on cd

[gleaming geyser]

Is the damage better used as funnel on the boss or to clear ads tho I wonder, in terms of group comp

[hazy breach]

Its usually not ideal to hold your 90 second cooldowns for 60+ seconds

[gleaming geyser]

Could have them on cd from a prev pack or something instead

[lucid jackal]

U just use ur CDs on CD tbqh

[gleaming geyser]

But yea defo wouldnt hold em

[lucid jackal]

Holding CDs is usually bait until ur doing 18s or 19s

[hazy breach]

Even then it mostly is

[lucid jackal]

and if ur doing 18s or 19s u kinda have that shit figured out within ur entire group planning cds for what

[gleaming geyser]

Fair enough

[lucid jackal]

Only boss id legit hold for is like, first boss motherload

or last boss rookery if u know other ppl got CDs on pull

[gleaming geyser]

For after the footballs? or why

[lucid jackal]

Yeah after footballs

[gleaming geyser]

Ye makes sense

Ok cool cheers, ye i usually hold on last boss rookery for the phase, are u saying to just send them into the shield is ok?

[lucid jackal]

but like, first boss floodgate u both need to beat the add DPS check, and then the boss burn phase, so your CDs being used on either half here is value

Sending CDs without the footballs is just GG

[lucid jackal]

Depends, but mostly yeah, just send CDs on CD

The shield needs to get burned eventually, by somebody

[gleaming geyser]

But you get a dmg buff during the burn phase, and I'll be literally doing nout during that if I send immediately

[lucid jackal]

Sure, but again, the shield does have to die

[alpine wraith]

first one in floodgate is diff than the one in rookery

the first one both phases are important

the other the shield phase is whatever

he just has a truckload of health

[magic fog]

May I ask, when my goal is to play Rogue and really "main" a single spec (Assa or Sub) mainly in high Mythic+ push and also do high 3v3/RBG.... which one would you concentrate on ?

I mean I don't want the "FOTM" spec or the "is OP" build, good, consistent, fun spec.
Like what would you assume is this when you look at past/present/future ? I am pretty new to rogue tho

[lucid jackal]

RN sin is better

It's kinda random which spec ends up being better so