subtlety

[tribal blade]

it'll just come down to doing the mechanics

[merry agate]

Ion the man the myth himself probably lurking this channel and laughing about our fan fictions

[tribal blade]

before it was REALLY easy to die on bandit

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/bassie-adriaan-auto-uitstappen-gordel-gif-15271961

[tepid trellis]

yeh if you had your eyes closed

[tribal blade]

haha you should see my guild

[lilac stag]

Adds not getting killed fast enough. I may run sub.

[tribal blade]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04F4xlWSFh0 it was literally this

[tepid trellis]

lol sub aint finna fix that lol

[tribal blade]

in before your RL asks people to reroll spriest 🙂

[lilac stag]

It does when I just go kill the ranged add

[lilac stag]

Our holy priest is playing shadow.

[tribal blade]

sub does relatively quite a bit of add damage, but it's tiny compared to stuff like spriest and aff lock

[tribal blade]

noice

we had 3 spriests on our kill haha

[lilac stag]

the DH and I are basically the ranged add killers because it’s difficult to see anything outside of the boss hitbox as range

entire Rik prog

[tribal blade]

hrm your ranged are INTING

[hazy breach]

Is that the script

[tepid trellis]

sounds like your SP, evoker and warlocks should turn on their keyboard ngl

[hazy breach]

Or just attendant damage

[tribal blade]

oh wtf i did almost as much add damage as our aff locks the hell

[hazy breach]

If you use the script thing to only show damage to the first 2 attendants that died (aka the ones that need to die) sub is usually quite good

[tribal blade]

yeah i looked using that script before during prog, i was doing very good add damage

[tepid trellis]

should be top of melee's on it only thing that can really do the same/more is Enhance and WW

[tribal blade]

the WW in my guild is pretty good, he was up there as well

[tepid trellis]

think i did like 50mil to reel assistants as assa on my first reclear on the boss

fast strat goes brrrt

im just there for boss dmg anyway

[tribal blade]

what exactly is the fast strat

[hazy breach]

you dont do cc immune adds

[tribal blade]

ahhhh the ST strat got it

[hazy breach]

Just BL pull and hit boss

[tepid trellis]

we dont bl pull either

[tribal blade]

i might just play sin on reclear honestly for bandit then

[patent crystal]

just hit boss

[tepid trellis]

we do at 4:20

[hazy breach]

Assa POV

[tribal blade]

turbo boost must have made reclear timings interesting

[hazy breach]

Add spawns? Nah me hit boss

[tepid trellis]

pretty sure you can skip another set of adds now

with BL on pull you should be able to with 680+ ilvl

[patent crystal]

sub can actually do crazy boss dmg

[tepid trellis]

so does assa with 5x less effort

[tribal blade]

yeah playing sin on mugzee was honestly a vibe

not doing piano cd usage

[alpine wraith]

i was going into gaols so

kek

[tribal blade]

so sad

[alpine wraith]

dmg was cursed anyway

[tribal blade]

we killed mugzee on day 2 of turbo boost

[alpine wraith]

kek

[tribal blade]

teehee

[alpine wraith]

i only have blue logs this tier

fucken bench

[tribal blade]

that really sucks riding the bench

i don't know how dedicated you are to your raid team, but maybe you should find a raid that values you more

it's not like running a rogue was THAT troll this tier

[alpine wraith]

finding guilds is even more of a PITA

already had to do it last tier

[tribal blade]

yeah i can imagine

[lilac stag]

Make logs public. lol

I tossed a rupture and garrote on it and just hit boss as assa. Felt awful.

[vestal escarp]

I really dont like playing this sin on st and it's not even the apm

[alpine wraith]

you can pad a bit as assa

[vestal escarp]

I wanno go back to sub....

[alpine wraith]

there is a point where you can get ct on both adds and boss

[tepid trellis]

unfortunately new guild only private logs

[alpine wraith]

did you finally join the good myst=

or well the other myst is also not bad but

[lilac stag]

Did you just run standard caustic build or?

at this point I just want to full send attendants and not play assa.

[tepid trellis]

yeh just caustic

smacked a rupture on them when i remembered to

other than that i did absolutely nothing

[lilac stag]

ok

That what I was at

Falling asleep 2 hours in

[tepid trellis]

assa is fcking dull

like the low energy is fine

if you actually played around it

but you dont

so you just sit and wait for nothing

and it just feels like shit

[lilac stag]

blind side please proc

Please

PLEASE

[vestal escarp]

So ass

[merry agate]

But 15 Mill envenoms

[native zodiac]

VV is just not fun to play

The auto use of tea also tilts me, glad we have uncapped crests now for 2 gearsets so you can just go sub for some bosses

[tepid trellis]

requires me to play the game tho

brother ew

[native zodiac]

That is true

I had enough crests to convert and be maxed on day1 luckily

Defo hope assa wont be meta or has a change of talents next tier though, fuck playing that on prog

[tribal blade]

blizz has seemingly been wanting to let sin be the premier rogue spec

so it'll likely still be very good next tier

[tepid trellis]

not really on prog tho

usually happens 1-2 months into the tier

[tribal blade]

yeah that's actually true

[native zodiac]

Ye id say sub has been more present for prog looking back a few tiers

[tribal blade]

sub early on tends to be quite dominant

same thing happened on smoldy i remember

[sacred yarrow]

do you think its mostly cause the name sounds cooler to new players?

ASSASSINATION ROGUE KILL EVERYTHING

subletly sneak and kill stuff

[native zodiac]

Amir was an assa tier though besides smold, atlesst my guild played x2 assa

[tribal blade]

i think sub rogue's name and entire theme is cooler

just wish blizz would actually lean into sub's theme more

or give us one actually

[native zodiac]

I just think the current assa playstyle is so much inferior to the kingsbane omega dmg in amirdrassil, that was so fun imo

[tepid trellis]

i liked the amir flow better

not that KB was monster dmg

but the envenom chaining for tierset was fun

[native zodiac]

Ye that awell

[tepid trellis]

i could do without the KB rng fiesta

[native zodiac]

If the last 2 hits dont crit

[tepid trellis]

still think the most fun on assa ive had for a long time

was the arberrus sepsis thing

but that was because i was fcking good at it xD

[native zodiac]

Meh i didnt play assa back then, was a 1 trick outlaw in some wr 800 guild at the time

Dark times

[tepid trellis]

was just about having as much Improved garrote uptime as humanly possible

[native zodiac]

Ahh i guess you tried to chain it as long as possible with vanish sepsis proc?

Sepsis was such a dogshit spell though

[full hare]

Ayo guys, are there any sub youtube content creators?

[tepid trellis]

yeh while making sure to have 100% cover for DM's

[native zodiac]

Hm sounds interesting i guess

I kinda liked nerubar assa rogue before they introduced supercharger

[lilac stag]

There’s like 20 people playing the spec

[native zodiac]

Echoing felt realy good with darkest night when they fixed it

Especially on silken court

[tepid trellis]

i will never forgive them for that fix

it broke DN for sub

[full hare]

I know, thats why I was hoping there would be something

Guess we wowhead guide'ing it up

[paper iron]

Abberus assa

🤮

Bad taste stealthi

[twilit phoenix]

aberrus in general

🤢

what a god awful tier

horrible dungeon rotation

dogshit raid

awful sets

[honest void]

i agree the raid was very mid

the dungeons on the other hand were pretty aight

[hazy breach]

Vortex pinnacle

[alpine wraith]

throne of the cucks

[hazy breach]

That wasnt the same tier

[native zodiac]

I will fight for this but i think aberrus was the best raid in df

[alpine wraith]

was it

[honest void]

not the worst of selections

but i fuck with freehold giga hard

so i'm biased that way

[hazy breach]

Its literally only freehold

[alpine wraith]

freehold never gets old

tbh did anyone ever do the route on bracken with the omegahard guantlet

[honest void]

no

[alpine wraith]

i found it so silly

[native zodiac]

bracken/underrot was good aswell imo

[hazy breach]

Not in s2

[honest void]

it was cursed

[alpine wraith]

one time a tank went there

[hazy breach]

after they fixed stuff late

[alpine wraith]

and i knew what was going to happen

[hazy breach]

Maybe

[honest void]

did it once and never again

[hazy breach]

But early no

[alpine wraith]

underrot 2nd boss fucked hard

before nerfs

boi began flailing

and everyone went DOWN

[honest void]

ngl the only one i hated with a passion was NL

[twilit phoenix]

everything was so overtuned week one

freehold was the only chill one

VP, ULD, Nelth

fuck that shit bro!!!!

[native zodiac]

nelth lair goes down as my most hated dungeon

[honest void]

^ this guy gets it

nothing about that dungeon was fun

[tribal blade]

halls of infusion during S2

what a dungeon

dying to those damn orbs in the first few pulls

and then the frost boss

making healers talent raid healing spec JUST for that boss

and then the last boss being able to do infinite intermissions

[twilit phoenix]

oh shit I forgot about HoI

[tribal blade]

the last key i timed to make title that season was 28 halls

honestly VP was worse

but halls was pretty bad too

[twilit phoenix]

i think I played for like 2 or 3 weeks and then put the game down for that season

[native zodiac]

i remember my first hall of infusion key, i booned before the intermission out of pure randomness and it completly bugged me out

[tribal blade]

oh and uld lol

[twilit phoenix]

season 3 was fun tho

[tribal blade]

jesus that dungeon pool SUCKED

pugging my way to title as a sub rogue

was truly cursed that season

i think the only key this season i dread doing is cinderbrew

[fiery pewter]

I am kinda expecting them to do a full mega dungeon M+ season one of these days. Kara, Mecha, Taz, Infinite parts 1 and 2. I would totally be down to see Kara again

[swift tinsel]

I’d be happy if they brought Gambit back

Over mechagon at this point

[jovial cipher]

we already had workshop 3 times fuck workshop

[void hound]

amidrassil rogue was kino

[hazy breach]

Amirdrassil was lit in general for progress

[fallow nimbus]

The next m+ season will have the all time worst dungeons, season of doom

[uneven fern]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[limpid sage]

I was just thinking that the rupture spam optimization might be bad in practice because of it

[slate marlin]

spires of ascension

[limpid sage]

donno if that's still a thing though

haven't checked apl in 2 weeks or smth

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

I mean rupture spam is bad in sims too

hasnt been a thing since ptr stopped

But the sectech bug with tier should only be like 1% or so, so its not a massive deal

[steady dune]

is it just me or is sub behind on like.. everything?

[short radish]

it is not you

sub is last place in raid

behind aug

and frost mage

[steady dune]

feels so bad man, this spec is fun

[short radish]

it is

we are one tuning buff away from being average

and it will happen

[steady dune]

pass me that copium

[formal helm]

[formal helm]

spires, sanguine

[keen dome]

Look at the bright side

It's only up from here

[slate marlin]

jokes on you

[keen dome]

Wait, no. We're still in front of tanks

[slate marlin]

it will go even lower

[keen dome]

Nevermind, we can still go further.

[short radish]

no it's only further downward as the season goes on

and more people get gear

[keen dome]

No, no. We can't go further down on the DPS chart because we're already at the bottom.

[formal helm]

vdh's awfully close

[keen dome]

Haha yeah

We need a new graph just for Sub rogue that contains just Sub rogue

[short radish]

we are in a hole, but the hole can still be dug deeper

[formal helm]

but hey, maybe we can reach new low and be outdps-ed by healers too?

[keen dome]

Finally, Sub is sub-healer DPS

[formal helm]

praise the god

and then after we reach that they just delete sub and have rog have 2 specs

[void ocean]

so how long does it usually take before the game figures out i got the 675 achievement and offers upgrade discouts?

[keen dome]

You might need to relog

[void ocean]

did

[formal helm]

usually another upgrade

[hazy breach]

Ye but its moreso because theres just no good special items for us than poor stat scaling

[void ocean]

reloged, killed the game

[keen dome]

Uneqip and reqwuip some gear, upgrade somethign else

[formal helm]

try another upgrade or re-equip gear

[keen dome]

it's really weird in when it can pop

[short radish]

not scaling is not scaling

[hazy breach]

Like jastor is mid because it gives a bunch of haste, hoc is about the same as transmitter

No best in slots

[formal helm]

remnant of darkness

[steady dune]

my favorite part of the game is fighting to the death with the 17 other dps for the one trinket that everyone needs that only drops every now and then

thats what I call 10/10 game design

[short radish]

replace goremaws bite with edge of the night (sylvanus daggers)

[hazy breach]

Thats why they have dinars

[formal helm]

dinars for seaforium mythic

[steady dune]

Yeah but to spend it, I have to find 19 other non-mouth breathers to kill bandit mythic, and thats a tall task

[short radish]

well then you werent going to get it anyway

[formal helm]

yeh

[steady dune]

a man can dream

dream of the day sub isnt dog shit

[short radish]

dw

next tier will be better

source: i made it the fuck up

[steady dune]

bro, pass me that fucking copium im fiending ehre

[formal helm]

when do we get a neat dagger

I want a neat dagger

[short radish]

well again

[formal helm]

(but not edge of fucking night)

[short radish]

we are just one tuning buff away from being average

[keen dome]

Monkey paw curls: Legendary dagger next season

[short radish]

sub gameplay is mostly fine

[formal helm]

so is deva

[short radish]

even with all of its bugs

[formal helm]

or rather nerf

[short radish]

yeah but we're not talking about dev

[steady dune]

MSGA, make sub great again

[formal helm]

ye but the "one buff away from average" is just cope till it happens

it's like saying "oh but I'm just one eurojackpot from being a millionaire"

[short radish]

it will happen sometime between now and the end of time

[formal helm]

like what's the point

[formal helm]

the cata instance?

[short radish]

yeah

[formal helm]

pog

[short radish]

dont get me wrong

i despairge every week no buffs

but at the same time

it is what it is

[formal helm]

true

[short radish]

and we'll be less shit next tier

[formal helm]

my point is basically that every spec is one nerf / buff away from being average

so saying that is just...

useless?

[short radish]

despairing about being shit is also useless

[formal helm]

true

[short radish]

talking about all of this is also useless

whats your point

[formal helm]

that is true

idk man

you caught me!

[short radish]

gottem

[formal helm]

[steady dune]

not usless, i like having my opinion valdiated by randos

[formal helm]

oh true

[short radish]

also

[formal helm]

knew there was smth!

[short radish]

the one good thing about still keeping with sub

is when you play it will

and beat everyone else in dps

it feels even better

[formal helm]

I guess

the superiority complex you get when you're top 3 dps

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/luke-skywalker-overconfidence-weakness-cocky-star-wars-gif-9017819

[short radish]

it is slight copium

but its not the worst copium

specs usually arent bin tier two times in a row

[formal helm]

hopefully

[short radish]

idk i can still beat people on dps

i just need to try harder

[formal helm]

oh same

I'm usually 3rd dps

2nd or 3rd

[short radish]

attalad

[formal helm]

can never beat the deva

[short radish]

yeah thats not happening

[formal helm]

yep.

[short radish]

or warlocks/spriest on 2target cleave

[formal helm]

cauldron warlocks..

altho I'm getting awfully close to deva on vexie

think was like 0.1m dps diff

[short radish]

thats the spirit

[formal helm]

soon!

[void ocean]

this is just fckin bs, still no discount

[graceful osprey]

Realistically, I find it that when I lock in and hit cd timings really well and fights go well, my dps is fairly decent

[alpine wraith]

yea around 700k behind the big bois

not that bad

[slate marlin]

i needed like 20 minutes to get the ach

[void ocean]

i got the ach

just upgrade cost is still 15

[haughty rose]

what are you guys tracking with WA and what's even worth tracking? i'm puring my WA right now and am not sure if i need stuff like find weakness, fazed or flawless form

[slate marlin]

ah

ye ofc

[alpine wraith]

upgrade will still be 15 for places where you still can get upgrades

basically it is only for alts

and does nothing on main

[void ocean]

wait, WHAT

[formal helm]

ye

[alpine wraith]

yes

[slate marlin]

Huge for alts tho

[void ocean]

so its 10 for places i cant upgrade

wtf

[formal helm]

it's 10 for alts

basically

[void ocean]

i could swear i watched a vid of tettles or someone that explained it will be for mains as well

weird

lmao, since my main has crafted belt or 681, on alt it gives me 10 crests for 7/8 myth, but 25 for 8/8 (its 6/8 atm)... i get the idea now

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/yes-robin-williams-pieface-hi-mrs-doubtfire-gif-8260066398712305229

BFA

[placid crown]

Hello, can someone remind me the command to see the best sim with best stuff please ?

[hazy breach]

Its !fuu

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

But generally as long as your items dont have haste youre good

[placid crown]

ty 🙂

ok good i'm at 2.623M at the moment, with 681 ilvl

[haughty rose]

bump

pls help se noob

[molten citrus]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[void ocean]

Im tracking when i can flag, wrote one WA that tells me its ok to flag when dance has one charge and less that 40 sec cd on the second 😆

Found it useful

Also another which tells me flag has ~27 sec cd left so I dont dance

[haughty rose]

oh... i only found out now that it's more than just refund, DS mark and range WA omg

[haughty rose]

you actually can get through with 30 sec? i feel like the only safe way to do b2b dance during flag and blade is to stop at 40 sec

[void ocean]

I usually try to vanish somewhere during what wait period so u get another finisher for less energy

[night sparrow]

Idea : they should lower symbols cds by 2 seconds so we could dry symbols + sectec ~1mn into a fight and be able to double dance/symbols after second burst ~1m50

[ashen dock]

Wild thought: ditch combo points

[molten citrus]

Almost every class in the game revolves around some sort of combo points though unfortunately

[void ocean]

We need nothing but aura buff and we gucci

Or revert preseason nerfs

[hazy breach]

Well we probably need more than +2%

But that would atleast be something

An aura buff would be fine, eviscerate buff would be the absolute best

[void ocean]

Wasnt it 7%

[swift tinsel]

Buff it to the point where you don't BP until 9+ targets

[void ocean]

Both nerfs

[hazy breach]

No it was -5% to sectech and -2 stacks of tier

[swift tinsel]

so that you nimble until mob count is higher than nimble cap

[hazy breach]

Buffing evis would also make burstier talent combos better

Like 2 symbols with DB

[swift tinsel]

which I'd be all for, gimme all the burst

delete FW/SF and make evisc do shadow damage in dance

and also 60% more damage

and remove phys hit from sectech and its one big shadow damage hit

#NoSplitDamage

[vestal escarp]

put us out of our misery

between the eyes

[swift tinsel]

no that's outlaw

[bleak wind]

@hazy breach is sub simming without the sectech bug with tier set?

[hazy breach]

Ye because we couldnt identify what causes it or why

But it should be like 1% or so

[swift tinsel]

It's too inconsistent for me to get a good %

[hazy breach]

Its only the shadow part thats sometimes missing on sectech, not the entire bonus

[night sparrow]

what's that sectec bug ? Did not realize or vseen any sectec not registering

[swift tinsel]

the clones can independently lose tier stacks

so they do less damage

and rarely you'll see one clone lose it so the two shadow hits do notably different damage from the same cast

it's very odd behavior

[lilac stag]

pets being buggy.

[swift tinsel]

like upwards of 1mil disparity on the same cast

[bleak wind]

I was looking at some logs and sims and couldn't figure out why the gap between assa and sub is that big given the sims, there must be something happening that hasn't been caught

[hazy breach]

Ye not sure

On dummies subs DPS is usually pretty on point

With the sims that is

So its either downtime fucking too much or theres some weird interactions with raidbuffs thats overestimated in sims

Ive looked at a lot of stuff for assa though, most recently found ttk was undersimming a little bit

[bleak wind]

how so

[hazy breach]

It wasnt pandemicing correctly

[bleak wind]

I see

but there must be more to it

gap is just way too big

[lilac stag]

You mean like envenom doing more dmg on live vs sims?

[hazy breach]

Its closer now after the ttk fix

[bleak wind]

I haven't been able to isolate anything specific, but something is happening

[lilac stag]

[hazy breach]

But yes im still doing a little bit more on dummies as assa than the sim

[lilac stag]

[hazy breach]

(simming execute since dummies are fuckers)

[lilac stag]

yeah it’s a pita to try to see target dummy dps

[hazy breach]

But idk ive done a lot of dummy tests for sub ST stuff

And its very very close to sims all the time

[bleak wind]

Also there was a wild idea in my guild yesterday that with the resets of the damage buff a few weeks ago that if you took the quests in different orther (like 9% first then 6% then 3%) you might be stuck with just 3% damage buff and given blizzard I would not discard it as a possibility

[swift tinsel]

Same, its usually ~1% off here and there

if not less

lmao sub blacklisted from the raid buff

likely

[bleak wind]

not a sub specific that one, just a wild guess that may or may not be true

[swift tinsel]

I could see either case being possible

[chrome palm]

i heard that was an issue with the last 9% buff, that you solved by deleting your card and getting a new one

[hazy breach]

Theres also the issue of sectech not getting logged properly if youre on the other side of the logger on cauldron

The classic bug

[bleak wind]

ye the game can't handle people being in the same boss room I guess

[warm marlin]

ya i hit my sim as sub pretty much exactly or just above

assa just turbo undersims nonstop

[hazy breach]

Ye but we have no idea why

Ive check so much shit but

[sacred magnet]

!race

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

It doesn’t even feel like it’s modeled wrong, but more like a difference in ability data in simc

[warm marlin]

it's not somehow related to zoldyck recipe and patchwerk fights not properly representing execute phase is it

like idk how the fight style actually executes but maybe more than 35% of an actual raid fight is spent below 35%

[wide kernel]

does evasion not work on xav the unfallen green circle?

its listed as physical

[wide kernel]

unless you do that and you're just reset to 0 rep

[hazy breach]

Does not

[alpine wraith]

usually you can survive with feint

or just step someone else

no reason to risk

even if doing the ignore flag strat

usually there is one dk or pala/shaman to do it on

[wide kernel]

smh, literally green circles on his mini bosses where evasion does work 😦

[vale pine]

^^

deception

[rustic raven]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[wide kernel]

why is the thistle tea build instead of CB bad?

a single auto crit and +1% crit vs 3 charges of 20% mastery + a lot of energy

[lilac stag]

Tea is useless

We don’t need the energy

[wide kernel]

like the energy and tea alone is allows for a lot of stuff like spamming storm for applying FW to all your targets

we absolute do though

[lilac stag]

and mastery is well, already capping

[wide kernel]

does flag not also get severely diminished with mastery cap as well then?

[lilac stag]

Our dmg outside of CDs is non existent. Tea literally just gets you a minute amount of cdr

[swift tinsel]

you don't really need to spam if you have Rotten

[vale pine]

the mastery you get is not high, you are better off making your entire secret techniques critical strike

[swift tinsel]

and like scath said, things that improve damage outside cd's don't really mean much

[wide kernel]

is this because of the cap at 120% or?

[lilac stag]

nothing we do is going to make dmg outside of CDs worthwhile

[vale pine]

no, its just because its not a excessive amount of mastery

[swift tinsel]

especially if it comes at the cost of burst damage in cds

[wide kernel]

how does the cap work with flag btw since it's like an 80% mastery bonus

[swift tinsel]

it's mastery percent, not mastery stat so it isn't affected by dr

[wide kernel]

ah

otherwise stat weights might matter more

[lilac stag]

sub is legit a one trick pony with talents

[swift tinsel]

plus, the more mastery you have in general the small amount you get from tea means less

[lilac stag]

You remove rotten in raid that’s it

[wide kernel]

nimble doesnt interact with FW right?

[hollow spear]

Wdym "a single auto crit"?

[swift tinsel]

its triggered by active abilities

[wide kernel]

like eviserate does +30% because FW right, but that's not also getting multiplied when it gets FF applied correct?

[tepid trellis]

you mean through shadowed finishers?

[wide kernel]

yes

[tepid trellis]

yeh it does work

you only need it on the main target tho

[wide kernel]

thats part of why i was asking for tea, just because of how much easier it is to apply FW to everything

[swift tinsel]

but the fun part is the phys hits that nimble are affected by armor, even the shadow damage from Shadowed Finishers

[wide kernel]

but if that doesnt matter for targets beyond the first

[tepid trellis]

yeh

all FW does on seperate targets

is very slightly increase the dmg of Flurry hits

[wide kernel]

would be to buff BP

[tepid trellis]

cuz of the armor reduction

so its not something we give a shit about until we need to actually BP

[wide kernel]

god thats just ass

seems like someone just got halfway done making sub and said 'fuck it, good enough'

[night sparrow]

make dance 45sec cd and symbols 20sec woohoo

vote for me

[wide kernel]

CDR does feel ass in raid yeah

[lilac stag]

CDR is just tight. It’s absolute ass without a shaman.

[fiery pewter]

I like CDR, but yeah its kinda crazy the difference whether you have a shaman or not

[worn ivy]

just discovered banger song for sub gameplay

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3lDWJltffs

[swift tinsel]

if it ain't from James' soundcloud I ain't about to hear it

[left ledge]

Well….

Uh

Yeah…

[vestal escarp]

article?

[haughty mural]

i am spamming that refresh aswell

i wanna reaaaaaaaaad

[vestal escarp]

the artcle will be judged on the doom-o-meter

[left ledge]

What article

[vestal escarp]

state of sub at mid expac by fuu

[left ledge]

That’s gonna be a fun read

Surely with horrific visions sub gets a 50% buff

[lilac stag]

Just wait until Wowhead forgets to post the state of sub article. Will truly be the most accurate thing they could do regarding the spec.

[lofty lance]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[vestal escarp]

wowhead == blizz?

[wide kernel]

I sent In a bug report regarding the lack of 8-12% aura buff sub was suppose to get

[worn ivy]

i think

i give 1 more week

and stop playing the game

im playhing with dogshit people in lfg rn

actually isnane

fuck ilevel boost and f blizzard and all the developers

[wide kernel]

Yeah I'm feeling that too.

[vale pine]

no

wowhead is independent, but all bigger news site will in some form work with blizz indirectly

[wide kernel]

At least we aren't the only ones being left behind, feral got 3% aura and blizzard just completely forgot

[vale pine]

lol

[hazy breach]

Well they did apply them later on

Unlike this

Trickster: Fixed an issue that prevented Blade Flurry and Nimble Flurry from dealing increased damage to targets with the Fazed debuff applied.

[vale pine]

it was hotfixed in

[vestal escarp]

ik it was a joke

[hazy breach]

Huh

[alpine wraith]

the feral one he talks about i think

[hazy breach]

Ye the feral ones were put in on the reset after

The fazed thing was only fixed for outlaw, its still bugged for sub

[fiery pewter]

It's better to be forgotten and remembered than forgotten and even more forgotten

[vale pine]

the missing feral buff

[gritty knot]

It's so fkn frustrating...I've done like 20 +12 s so far and I top the meters by far. People actually write me "damn, nerf sub" and " wtf is this crazy dmg, sub rogue is fkn insane" and then I go back to +16s and +17s and I get annihilated by other classes so hard that it makes me wanna put some laxatives into the drinks of some Blizz Devs...

[wide kernel]

Make sure you are running with a proper comp

Monk/warrior/shaman

[wicked urchin]

we're getting buffed next reset

can feel it in my bones

then i can play sub on gally guilt free

[hazy breach]

?

[high flint]

this was zeross recommending that build

a while back

iunno

just picked it up from back then

[wicked urchin]

this is sub

[high flint]

oh fuck

im in the wrong chat

hold up

[wicked urchin]

lmaoooooo

[high flint]

howd i get teleported here

[wicked urchin]

its a scary dark place here now

cobwebs even

a few rogues crying in the corner

[high flint]

its crazy how somehow outlaw shot up in popularity

but sub is still way down

[alpine wraith]

dont worry some of us still are here

outlaw has more hardcore players from the m+ days

[high flint]

i hate outlaw iwth a passion coz killing spree griefs me more than my teammates

i play it exclusively in floodgate for obvious reasons

[crisp knoll]

What talent is it that causes the combo point reset after using a finisher?

[hazy breach]

Shadowcraft

[crisp knoll]

cheers

[warm marlin]

the bug fixes were a mega mega buff in keys

and to some degree in raid

[hazy breach]

Outlaw gets bugfixes, sub gets nothing

[warm marlin]

well technically the dead mobs thing was the major one which sub got too

[hazy breach]

Well sure but its not major for sub since you BP anyway at not small target counts

The fazed thing (which is like a 1-1.5% bug) was fixed for outlaw but not sub

[warm marlin]

ye that fazed thing is unfortunate

buff sub

the bugfixes for outlaw were literally like 30-40% buff in keys depending on how many dead mobs you were hitting before

casual buff

[hazy breach]

Ye and nobody plays sub so blizzard probably thought it would be decently similar for sub

Which is probably why there was no other buff

[warm marlin]

not a bad theory tbh

[hazy breach]

Without them realizing we use BP at like 5 targets because eviscerate weak as hell

Ig our auto attack and strike cleaves do slightly more.

https://tenor.com/view/omg-gif-7218835497684493160

[warm marlin]

aura buff + evis buff angle

[hazy breach]

Idk not even sure theyre doing another round of tuning

Wouldnt be surprised if they just let it be

And then hope we dont end up with deathstalker next tier

[wide kernel]

Just remove eviserate and give bp +80% buff and let me rp as bleed build sin

[pliant topaz]

do you think if sub goes the entire expansion with no one playing deathstalker that theyre gonna fix deathstalker by doing another 45% buff to its plague damage? cuz thatd be neat

[warm marlin]

@hazy breach would the old vanish opener be a gain if you are doing the sectec thousand blades cheese before pulls

[dreamy pumice]

do i buy jastor or HOC with the tokens

[lilac stag]

Likely HoC. Sim it.

[tribal blade]

wtf turbo boost calm down

[worn ivy]

new ST build realeased its called "Shadow Walker"

im gonna KMS soon IG IG

DO SOMETHING TO THIS SPEC 😄

YOU GO FULL HASTE SPAM GLOOMBLADE

:d

HASTE VERSA

[short radish]

sir

please

seek professional help

[tribal blade]

am i missing something

how tf do i get hit by the beam right after i pop cloak

[chrome palm]

:)

[hybrid prism]

Did we get any tuning yet? I saw there were hotfixes, but they didn’t even mention us, yet again!

[chrome palm]

Erm actually you hit the beam after the first second of cloak so it technically isn’t an immunity 🤓 ☝️

[tribal blade]

oh is that how it works

[chrome palm]

I imagine, it’s totally arbitrary what can be “resisted” and what can be immhned

And then some magic dam is neither

Like the fire on the ground on mugzee that cloak doesn’t work on

[tribal blade]

alright so it might work like immuning the frontal on 1st boss NW

[chrome palm]

Yeah

[tribal blade]

ok cool

[chrome palm]

A frustrating high amount of mechanics are like this

Like the 2nd boss priory soak orbs

You can do them back to back but only during the first second so you have to be fast

[dry plank]

Or you can cloak after you get debuf?

[worn ivy]

perforate veins or lingering shadow which one wins in ST

[chrome palm]

If you feel like taking damage from it go ahead

[worn ivy]

NO FLAG ST

[chrome palm]

What is the point of this

[worn ivy]

btw TFD is not big as u think

[short radish]

tell that to my

[wide kernel]

tfd is huge wdym

[rocky ocean]

[short radish]

i will not let my beloved TFD get slandered by this

especially by someone cooking up a no flag build

[vale pine]

does not sound good

[haughty rose]

are we ignoring the gloomblade/haste build? i'd argue it's a greater crime

[hollow spear]

I'm surprised no mod has deleted that yet

Bannable offense imo

[chrome palm]

Build coal mine

[hollow spear]

He was looking for gold and dug up plutonium

[short radish]

im ignoring a lot of what he posts for my own sanity

[worn ivy]

Final cook for dungeons

;

6 crit is massive

[rocky ocean]

bro's got possesed by yogg saron

[worn ivy]

Wdym

[rocky ocean]

[worn ivy]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/wXzyEMrFzfungYc3HtkWZw

You can ignore crit

Why i dont see planned execution on buffs ?

Also not shown in details auras ..

[lilac stag]

I see we’ve hit full boomer insanity mode. Phone taking pictures of monitor.

[tribal blade]

i see we're devolving into taking photos of our screens

[lilac stag]

[tribal blade]

oh jinx lol

[lilac stag]

What are the chances

[tribal blade]

great minds think alike 😉

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/spider-man-we-one-gif-18212100

[worn ivy]

Im at work thats why

[tribal blade]

no falme 🙂

slame even

FLAME

jesus

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vestal escarp]

Chat why did bro pick bad talents and called it a cook?

[tepid trellis]

cuz he aint no chef

he a street vendor in a hurricane

[worn ivy]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/fnbszJ7QAkC7LZZsd9Soy9

how big is 50k

[vestal escarp]

5

[worn ivy]

RS is overrated

WEP+TFD underrated combination

feelycraft > theorycraft

[patent crystal]

Are you not gonna be pressing rupture then?

[worn ivy]

you do

[patent crystal]

So you are pressing it 2x the amount

For wm

[worn ivy]

its whatever

depedns on keylevel

and key

i dunno how all this simulations work but i tried nearly all talent combination in real keys

im pretty sure there is way better build out there

tell me in which world of simulation you are fenting during dance

on high keys u cannot just trust simulations

let me tell u something everything i try is all about m+ i dont give a dam about raiding

anything can put me ahead in m+ to other subtlety ill do it

u cannot lock 1 talent build for every dungeons

[lilac stag]

Bro clearly not understanding how shit and useless the sub talent tree is. This ain’t assa where you have multiple talents competing for usefulness.

[worn ivy]

do u also understand even 0.1% is matters for me

when it comes to sub talents for dungeons

[lilac stag]

At this point you’re just spewing out random shit worse than zeros boss dmg screen grabs

[worn ivy]

i wanna see where u can go maximum with subtlety

i would play 19-20's already if i wanted to play assa

thats not the point

your missing the point

[lilac stag]

With your friends. I know.

Keep cooking.

[worn ivy]

ill

[lilac stag]

Have fun

[jaunty heath]

Why is a guy that clearly got busted for boosting talking to himself in a public discord about how nobody else besides him knows about sub

Im confused

[vestal escarp]

Thats bullying bro

[hazy breach]

Lingering by a lot

[wide kernel]

he's at least trying to make something of sub :/

and also, theory and practice are wildly different things. as much as dungeon slice and cinderbrew are different things

[hazy breach]

Bro still thinks weaponmaster does anything

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/sonic-the-hedgehog-sonic-3-sonic-meme-sonic-cinema-sonic-movie-3-gif-3050060157188629982

[lilac stag]

Are 📠 bully?

[random hare]

Whats going on here

I smell some pot cooking the almost burned my house

[vestal escarp]

You're a trailblazer

People already following in your steps

[hazy breach]

Lets use an example, youre in pack with 8 mobs, with 0 CP, 4 sht and youre in dance. You strike and proc weaponmaster.
First you get 3 cps from strike, then your sht gets consumed so you have 7 CP and you flurry for the initial hit.

Ok now weaponmaster strikes a second time on your main target, overcaps 3 combo points and does not cleave

[random hare]

https://tenor.com/view/jose-mourinho-sweet-trouble-gif-26762341

[wide kernel]

the simpler explaination is WM doesn't interact with nimble flurry

[random hare]

I like to feelcraft alot but even if theres something wrong with weaponmaster btw, i did try it in cinderbrew once and i guarantee you that talent sucks balls

[wide kernel]

anything without tfd sucks

[random hare]

Theres nothing about it that sims incorrectly

[wide kernel]

couldn't you theoretically leave brew instance right before last boss, drop replicating shadows and take WM?

[random hare]

Im not a fan of dont trust sim bullshit unless something is obviously fucked up

This isnt 2009

[lilac stag]

Get a warrior. Get a shaman. Pull around sub cds perfectly. Winning as sub rogue.

[hazy breach]

Well replicating does more on St too

[wide kernel]

then why arent we taking it for raid

or are we?

[hazy breach]

Pathing

[short radish]

we do take it for raid?

dont we?

[hazy breach]

But also yes

[short radish]

or was that last season

[random hare]

[wide kernel]

we drop tfd for WM

is what happens, so you want to drop something else for WM in that case i guess

[hazy breach]

You need inev in raid

Which means you need tfd or wm

[wide kernel]

cant you just drop the rotten for last boss of brew in that instance because you have FW always anyway?

[lilac stag]

100% and yes there have been data errors, observational errors (nimble flurry and target dummy percents comes to mind) but at this point those are ironed out.

[hazy breach]

Well yes but it takes time to port out

[wide kernel]

we already swap for the dungeon optimally no?

between sin and sub

[hazy breach]

So its not worth for like 1-2% dps

No

[wide kernel]

is the difference between raid ST and m+ only 2%?

[random hare]

I know

[lilac stag]

Others don’t

[wide kernel]

i know shindigg posted a video where he did last boss of rookery as sub, that's an instance for sure

[hazy breach]

Thats the only one ye

[lilac stag]

imagines having meaningful talent choices as sub

[short radish]

i think in floodgate - you swap to sub after first boss

or after 2nd boss maybe

[wide kernel]

idk how that all works because you have to calculate in run time

[random hare]

For what exactly now

?

[wide kernel]

hes saying big momma

[short radish]

more boss damage or something

i dunno

[random hare]

[short radish]

heard it a few weeks ago

[wide kernel]

big momma has a significant damage amp phase when adds die, that would be why

[random hare]

Sin does more boss dmg what are u smoking

[wide kernel]

still has to be weighed against run time ig

[short radish]

nah you play assi on big momma

[wide kernel]

what boss then, the duo?

[short radish]

yeah and then swampface onwards

though i suppose

since you dodge bubbles

its also a bit whatever

[random hare]

[wide kernel]

how is sin better dps on big momma when burst is our thing? isn't that damage amp huge

[short radish]

adds still need to die or something

[tepid trellis]

4 adds

up alot of the time

[wide kernel]

so play deathstalker

[tepid trellis]

so Scent is huge

and assa does more funnel that sub does

so

[wide kernel]

we're not actually saying that sin has better burst or better st than sub are we

[lilac stag]

4 adds up. Prio dmg into burst phase is yummie

[tepid trellis]

no its big momma specific

[random hare]

Sin does more dps in every situation u can think of

In floodgates

Idk why u guys are perma cooking wrong things 24/7

[short radish]

even on 3rd and 4th boss?

[random hare]

Do u not play keys or what

?

[short radish]

nah i dont

[random hare]

[short radish]

[random hare]

Ok im going back to bed

[lilac stag]

Sub rogues playing keys.

[short radish]

sweet dreams

[tepid trellis]

hey i dont do keys anymore, but i aint cookin shit

[wide kernel]

would death stalker sub not be strictly better if we're arguing funnel and ST vs ST and burst vs burst?

[random hare]

[tepid trellis]

no?

[wide kernel]

i dont think anyone has actually tested that

[lilac stag]

oh DS has been cooked

[tepid trellis]

Assa will do alot more boss dmg on big momma

[wide kernel]

DS has strictly better ST than trickster according to the theorycrafting optimizations as well

idk how any of that applies to big momma but i dont think its been tested

[tepid trellis]

Assa does a rediculous amount of prio dmg when adds are up

they arent close

and the "burst" sub has

gets reduced a good bit by someone deciding for whoever knows god damn reason

[short radish]

big momma amp phase is also shorter than sub burst phase

[tepid trellis]

they went DS sub

[wide kernel]

does it? like i said DS has strictly better ST

[tepid trellis]

trickster bursts

[wide kernel]

and its like the only situation i can think of where you actually want to use evis with it

[tepid trellis]

quite a bit harder

than DS

[wide kernel]

i see

makes sense ig i cant make sub do good damage at that boss

[tepid trellis]

also no clue where you got the idea that DS does more single target than trickster

last i checked that is not the case

[wide kernel]

theorycrafting section

you have to scroll up a bit

[tepid trellis]

hope you arent looking at the april fools joke that was posted

[wide kernel]

dont think so?

ill find it tomorrow

[hazy breach]

He definitely is

[tepid trellis]

its the chuffa post right?

[hazy breach]

The only thing sub does better than assa is being more tanky.

Even with rookery last boss being the absolute perfect boss design for sub, its still only pretty good at it

Since numbers are so low overall

[tepid trellis]

10% sub buff inc next week trust

[short radish]

[keen dome]

🙏

[short radish]

SURELY NEXT WEEK IS OUR WEEK

[jaunty heath]

Burstie brings our biggest numbies but overall numbies are lowies so burties also lowie

[keen dome]

Every week is our week if you just believe hard enough

[jaunty heath]

How I feel atm fr

[lilac stag]

Well if it doesn’t happen hurricane food cart vendor said he’s quitting wow.

[tepid trellis]

u taking my joke from me?

thats rough

[lilac stag]

No. Using it as an identifier.

[jaunty heath]

The raccoon is next

Better watch out

[lilac stag]

If name is said too often its like beetle juice.

[dry plank]

@tepid trellis your guild disbanded?

[tepid trellis]

yeh like a month or so ago

[keen dome]

I wish Jastor was good for me 'cos it's cool. But, nope. Every sim at 671 is bad versus a 681 crafted ring.

[vestal escarp]

[hazy breach]

It has and mostly gives haste

[keen dome]

Yeah

[hazy breach]

So ye not phenomenal

[keen dome]

I like dumb cantrip items though.

But

[swift tinsel]

Dat disparity tho

[keen dome]

Difference of replacing the circlet in 3 weeks (or getting it sooner via luck) versus crafting a new one in 4 M+'s though

[swift tinsel]

Next tier vers/mastery dagger that specifically buffs shadow dance

[keen dome]

god yes please

Although that does mean I'll never get it on myth

[swift tinsel]

Turns your damage into shadow and deletes find weakness

It’ll be from m+

[keen dome]

haha

Legendary dagger, imo

[swift tinsel]

New Nick of time

[keen dome]

You have to do 100 theaters to get it though

[swift tinsel]

The chase begins

[keen dome]

Not the dungeon

the world event.

[swift tinsel]

Lmao

[keen dome]

Performance for our sins

Been doing 12's today and I'm consistently not the worst DPS so that's nice. Not the best either.

But, hey, I'll take the middle DPS as the worst DPS spec in the game

[lilac stag]

I’m still waiting for someone to cook up the nightfall curseblade’s cudgel in m+ for sub OH.

kinda disappointed we haven’t seen that yet (or I just missed it)

[keen dome]

If we could get them on hero, anyway

[hazy breach]

Out of all the possible cooks, the one that is the most likely to be good right now is figuring out how to purposefully bug TFD so it counts in combat

Because it does sometimes, but i cant figure out why

[lilac stag]

I haven’t played around with sub enough lately. Is it only doing it in instances or can I try to force it on target dummies

[hazy breach]

It can happen on dummies

[patent crystal]

something with vanish maybe?

[hazy breach]

Ye ofc with vanish

But

[lilac stag]

it just triggers the buff instantly ye?

[hazy breach]

Sometimes

[fallow nimbus]

Vanish with stop attack and doing nothing?

[hazy breach]

Well my point is that sometimes you vanish and do your rotation normally

But it ticks up

[lilac stag]

I sear sub’s stealth and dance is so crangled the game just doesn’t know what to call

[hazy breach]

While youre literally hitting the mob

Just have no idea how to make that happen consistently

[keen dome]

Wonder if it's some interaction with Improved Stealth you get for 3s and it's not properly clearing that

[fallow nimbus]

Maybe it's time to make it just stealth

[hazy breach]

Well its purposefully not stealth

Because they dont want to move any more power into vanish

[fallow nimbus]

They suck

[lilac stag]

Do we put out a call to the PVPers? They seem to always figure stuff like this out.

[half remnant]

@hazy breach do you have maybe some kind of video, example of how it looks like? Might be helpful for figuring that out

[gritty knot]

Honestly I don't get how this stupid ability works anyway...Sometimes it's bugged with vanish, sometimes it starts counting like 5-6 seconds after being out of combat already, sometimes when its like 1-2 seconds left and a pack or boss is pulled it's resetting. Sometimes it's still working. Tbh that shit is just annoying to keep an eye on. If I get it to work, it's good to have in m+. And if I don't...well. It is what it is

[fallow nimbus]

It should just be "staying 3sec in stealth..."

Because you can stay in stealth even when in combat

[worthy relic]

https://youtu.be/WQ_xk3P8T6o?feature=shared

This is from the start of the season

No vanish, just bugs out at the start of the pull

[worthy relic]

I have only had it happen in rook, nice to know it can happen on dummies too

[slate marlin]

Tfd can also bug on bosses, im pretty sure it triggered in ipa after i vanished, i saw ny tfd wa start the count and so i waited and nex sd was 10 seconds

[hazy breach]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/T4YzfL9h2CFvygHX?fight=9&type=damage-done&source=3&pins=0%24Separate%24%23244F4B%24auras-gained%240%240.0.0.Any%240.0.0.Any%24true%24191357768.0.0.Rogue%24false%24470677^0%24Separate%24%23909049%24casts%240%240.0.0.Any%24191357768.0.0.Rogue%24true%240.0.0.Any%24false%241856&start=7874555&end=7888188&view=events

No recording but logs atleast

[half remnant]

I'm not used to bug hunt in wow, but on that clip it looks like it involves the resetting of a timer, i would presume there is an event going off on a timer to reset tfd proc (as you are dragged into combat) and but before that you have cleared some kind of flag that is responsible for clearing tfd from buffs. To structurize it:

• you gain the tfd timer
• you enter combat
• the reset of tfd timer is scheduled ( cause probably some interaction with stealth)
• you enter actual combat that is clearing tfd
• in the same time the reset tfd timer is procing, resetting it to 6 sec
• as you are in combat it by passes the talent check if you entered combat

Atleast that would be what I would look inside if I was the one trying to fix the bug. Idk if helpful or not, maybe some direction.

[rocky ocean]

John Rogue, will there be sub buffs???

[hazy breach]

No

[vale pine]

not before next season

[vale pine]

tfd has many bugs, the timer is inconsistent

[worthy relic]

Cant view the log, private?

Tho from the img u gain the buff instantly and skip countdown right?

[hazy breach]

No thats the countdown buf

Also i didnt realize it was private, now it isnt

[past marlin]

Any chance in this season?

[vale pine]

there is always a chance, but i dont see why

[slate marlin]

Im out of the sub buffs boat

maybe they thought the bugfixes would be as big as for law

granted 1st we should get the bugfixes applied to sub

[fleet wharf]

Surely they'll throw sub some useless buffs since they patch based on warcraftlogs damage and we're at the bottom?

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/hang-first-time-smiles-gif-14991372

[fleet wharf]

my other character is shadow and that class just keeps on sliding down too lol

[lilac stag]

Shadow will get 4 reworks before sub gets noticed

[fleet wharf]

is the lore that old sub/rogue dev left and sub is basically abandoned?

[lilac stag]

and by noticed we get a 15% buff to BP

[swift tinsel]

Second part feels relevant

[slate marlin]

Wont complain, sp is purple

[swift tinsel]

He’s still working on rogue at least, popped into ol thread when they were fixing dead target BF stuff

[brittle plinth]

Worse than that. We are utility-less and on the bottom.

[brittle plinth]

This would be great because they'd accidentally code it the same way shadow dance is and every shadow dance or stance would basically result in an extended dance. I approve.

[north schooner]

subs being bottoms makes a lot of sense

[pale python]

hiding in the shadows of a table?

[tribal blade]

it's been like this for a while now

[fallow nimbus]

Yeah, every dance gives the next 3 extra seconds, also buff cdr so we always double dance between cds, then 2 dances with cds to have a giga dance with max flag stacks

[dry plank]

And then you woke up xD

[fallow nimbus]

Also the 2 dances between cds can be used whenever as long as you don't cap dance/sod

I am still dreaming

Sectec gets the cd removed but only useable after entering dance

Can't we just force someone who cares about sub rogue into the inner dev circle?

[brittle plinth]

You mean this isn't Jessica Alba sitting next to me?!

[north schooner]

also you get a shadow dance charge back whenever you /dance

[half remnant]

but only when you are in a shadow

[night sparrow]

let us having consistanly 2 sd + symbols between 1mn30 cds

[brittle plinth]

Lol I mean I'd be okay with the changes such that allow Sectech only usable during stealth stance

[north schooner]

unless you are using the shadowblade title, then it always works

[hazy breach]

Or consistently 1

Either is fine

[warm marlin]

I kind of enjoy the complexity of 2 dances between then 1 dance + 1 naked sod

[lucid jackal]

Same

[brittle plinth]

That's more of a raid thing though right?

[night sparrow]

yes

[brittle plinth]

Haven't really raided as sub, m+ a bit more generous in those CDRs

But question: if sectech was no CD but only usable during stealth-stance (out of vanish/meld or during dance), it would be a bit too strong right?

[hazy breach]

Ye but m+ typically ends up "too generous"

So you have too much dances

Compared to symbols

[lucid jackal]

Yes lol

[fleet wharf]

Wouldn't it having a short cd like 10 or 7 sec be enough to not require too much extra tuning?

[lucid jackal]

I mean heres an example of the rank 1 sprocket

Sectec is close with 12 casts vs 54 evis

If sectec had no CD in stealth sub would be busted as fuck

It'd also be kinda boring idk

It'd just be crackshot

[hazy breach]

No CD would be silly yes, but having it have like 10 or 8 seconds cooldown would be fine, since that would clearly show newer players that its intended to be used during dance

[lucid jackal]

I say this every time a spec sucks numerically, but sub doesn't need a giant rework to be "playable" again, it just needs a damage

[hazy breach]

And be of practically no difference to us that know more about it

[night sparrow]

the cool thing about 2x2 dance is that it allows you to dry symbols every 3mn but infortunatly you miss like 10sec on symbols cds if doing so at third flag+sb 😦

[hazy breach]

Ofc

But quality of life is always appreciated

[warm marlin]

sub very fun just needs big buff

[lucid jackal]

It just reminds me of the outlaw channel where any time outlaw isn't the best key spec people come up with the dumbest "buff" suggetsions of all time

[fleet wharf]

I dont go to the outlaw channel, whats the most outlandish thing you've heard recently?

[lucid jackal]

The spec is good in keys now so the complaining has gone down a lot

Crazy the spec is viable and nobody asks for a rework

(other than KS being the worst spell in the game)

[fleet wharf]

i heard it's a buggy mess, what makes it so bad?