subtlety

[calm creek]

I just think it’s hard to learn your lines

If shit is changing every 2 weeks

[haughty mural]

It’s really balanced right now besides the top top and bottom bottom ends

Imo

[vale pine]

its not too bad, pyg played almost the same since 2 months, just got more op stuff on top ^^

vanessa changed the most

[haughty mural]

eg. sub and dev are outlier - while most of the rest is close

[vale pine]

i think wow is weird in terms of balancing

we have a lot of problems from developers bias

it is why certain memes exist

e.g. that warlocks are always good

[formal helm]

I mean yeah, but the issue is that certain specs are just dumped into closet and never opened

[vale pine]

or mages always having 2 specs that are strong

or for rogue, that you most of the time just play one spec and cba about the other 2

[haughty mural]

Playerbase

[vale pine]

balancing also is only done on mythic+

*raid

never for mythic+

it means the diffrences there are even bigger

[strange chasm]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

for the last 2 xpacs, balancing was mostly done by just looking at the wcl statistic

and just buff the lower ones

and even then its inconsistent, like look at this

[short radish]

to be fair the frost mage one would be like if fatal intent on the deathstalker tree was buffed by 50%

which is why they are below aug like us

[haughty mural]

I miss the „we do x because of y“ days

Or „we see you have problem z - we’ll keep looking into that“

[vale pine]

there are probably reasons why blizz does certain things

[haughty mural]

No it’s just:

[vale pine]

but it is hard to understand or explain their TWW startegy

[calm creek]

Yeah they’ve been decent for dragonflight

[haughty mural]

Maybe they know we can’t hit first boss rookery with sectech, maybe they don’t

[calm creek]

Outside of exodia Aug comps

[short radish]

im sure they know

but im also sure they just dont care/have the resources

[haughty mural]

I am also sure they know

[short radish]

it just gets rolled over from one sprint to the next

[haughty mural]

But yea

[short radish]

or sits on the backlog 5eva

[haughty mural]

Just write it

One liner

[vale pine]

i mean the writing is on the wall

[short radish]

it's been said multiple times here

[vale pine]

they are not stupid

[short radish]

why put effort into a spec that nobody plays

[open vortex]

I'm sure they have more important things to do than fix a bug on one boss for 4 people

[short radish]

when they could put effort into specs that people do play

be glad we got the triple charge on symbols

[haughty mural]

Yea fair

[vale pine]

they can read statistics, and see subtlety is in none of the data outstanding

its just there is no action taken to change it

[haughty mural]

Yea well whatever at this point

It’s not my first time

But getting new players to this spec is even harder

[vale pine]

it becomes near impossible

[haughty mural]

If they come in here and read those things

[vale pine]

nobody learns a spec you can play once a xpac

[haughty mural]

Exactly

[vale pine]

especially if its punishing too

[formal helm]

and there's also the fact that the spec is half baked and nothing interacts properly

[vale pine]

there is fundermentally nothing wrong with subtlety

it is more fun than the other 2 rogue specs to play

but this does not matter if you are not competing in damage

[short radish]

yeah

we are just one single balancing patch note

from being good

[swift tinsel]

easily my biggest frustration of the tier

[short radish]

sub actually feels good to play (in raid)

[swift tinsel]

my damage goes up week after week, my position in kills goes down

[vale pine]

like ngl

[swift tinsel]

that feels really bad

[vale pine]

i feel terrible for people who learned sub this tier

they went through multiple weeks to try to understand the spec

[delicate wind]

I mean number of players playing a specific directly correlates with its power. Nothing to do with anything else

[sterile kiln]

guys why is my sim saying 684 hoc is worse than 671 hoc

[lilac stag]

Less Aug players and more of the players wanted the spec to die.

[short radish]

yeah some guy paid me for sub coaching 2 weeks before season 2

[delicate wind]

People play this game to be the strongest.

[vale pine]

to then switch spec after a short time

[short radish]

actual feelsbad for him

[ripe moon]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[short radish]

maybe i should message him see how hes going

[vale pine]

probably because of error range

[delicate wind]

Using something like we won’t fix it because no one played it is such a logical fallacy because if it were top dps then every rogue would play it.

[swift tinsel]

we call that a Wellness Check

[sterile kiln]

-2.9% though ??

[delicate wind]

Player base correlates almost directly with spec power

[short radish]

i still want to know who that evoker is that messaged me in trade chat earlier today

[vale pine]

probably because it uses it 2 times in your sim

how did you compare?

[sterile kiln]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/k23MvTpqoKM1RNzCpNiJzg

[vale pine]

top gear or gear compare?

if its gear compare i am sure you made a mistake

[sterile kiln]

top gear search

[formal helm]

was more referring to lack of interactions with find weakness and stuff like that
or dead talents

if I didn't enjoy sub I would've switched already

[short radish]

dead talents exist on every single spec

[formal helm]

but I do enjoy it infinitely more than other 2 specs so ye

[short radish]

on every class

[hazy breach]

Very few classes actually have completely dead talents though

Like most have talents that are "dead" because theyre worth 1.5% instead of the other options thats worth 3%

[swift tinsel]

we get the luxury of 0.1%

[hazy breach]

Shadow focus and PV are within margin of error on sims

[short radish]

granted its a class tree thing but you have shit like on paladin tree

pretty sure prot doesnt even take that

[haughty mural]

And we have shadowheart

In class tree

[short radish]

i thought they fixed that

so it works now

[hazy breach]

It works when youre in stealth (not dance or subterfuge)

[short radish]

oh

ecks dee

hahahahahhahahahaha

fuck me

[hazy breach]

2% leech for a single strike every 2 minutes

[haughty mural]

😄

[swift tinsel]

OPOP

[formal helm]

hey but it works!

[swift tinsel]

[vale pine]

we just did not get a lot of talent updates

the tree was introduced and things stayed mostly like this

[swift tinsel]

Petition to finish 10.1.5 rework

and by that I mean fix shit talents

[vale pine]

the funny part about it was, they even nerfed it

so its like... even worse

[swift tinsel]

swap shadow focus to 'costs 5 less energy when not in shadow dance'

or remove

[formal helm]

remove.

fuck that

shadow focus needs to go

[vale pine]

shadow focus is the most nerfed talent

it was 100% when introduced

then nerfed each patch/xpac

[swift tinsel]

see and to me that says it doesn't fit or belong

also gating GB behind it is odd to me

but you can say that about a fair bit of spec tree pathing

swift death, wm to inevitability, pv to dp

[vale pine]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/scnRRKtNAuAo1P2CavbjCD

it shows the diffrence to be not that big, also it seems the ui is a bit buggy with item levels

[swift tinsel]

like this lil nexus of talents

[vale pine]

a lot of things are kind of weirdly positiond/designed

[swift tinsel]

100%

its bothersome lol

[vale pine]

but keep in mind the dev shares his entire time budget between 3 specs

[sterile kiln]

wtf xd thanks tho

[vale pine]

so often will decide what he thinks is a important part to improve

[swift tinsel]

yeah I'd expect to see talent tuning/changes before pathing

[vale pine]

rather than trying to have the quality of the 3 trees match and give each spec options to stand out

[swift tinsel]

but its still a contentious point, the way some talents seem to be thrown into places that don't make sense

sub is always going to fight the tide of dev attention that goes to sin bc of its ease of access

[vale pine]

i mean, i could do a objective comparison between specs/classes

and you would see a certain bias

its just, doing so would create even more friction

[swift tinsel]

oh for sure, its glaringly apparent which ones receive more positive attention

[vale pine]

nobody likes to be told or shown that they made mistakes

and also why would blizz care

the playerbase of sub is the lowest of all specs in the game

[swift tinsel]

yeah, they obviously have their own vision for how things should play out and dont seem to care all that much about disrupting that

[haughty mural]

For me that was ttk

As a prime example

[vale pine]

ttk was a funny community discussion

or you mean the last update to it

[haughty mural]

The last update

[swift tinsel]

which one, where it made envenom buff stack?

I haven't kept up with sin

[haughty mural]

Yo

[vale pine]

i think the last update to talents showed a bias

subtlety, besides basically losing a talent

did not have the highest amount of change in the patch

so even tho blizz had to do work on sub to fill the talent they wanted to get rid off

the patch still did spend time making sure other specs get attention

[haughty mural]

Yea that’s what I was referring to

[vale pine]

a good example is subterfuge too

why was it a prority to make sure its releavnt on assasisantion

[haughty mural]

Oh yea and it’s interaction with ma and ic

[vale pine]

but not time spend equally to make sure its releavnt on sub?

and the problem is, next time we get dev time assigned it is again spread

outlaw killing spree is a big point they probably want to focus on

means the remainding time can be spend between sub and sin

[haughty mural]

Which is also rightfully so

[swift tinsel]

yeah I could see that as being the biggest/only rogue prio

in their eyes

atm

[vale pine]

going from tww/df so far, i don't think the time will be spend to iterate mostly on sub issues which existed during the entirety of DF

[haughty mural]

Could also see them keep an eye to the pathing of doomblade and sbs then if they do killing spree

[swift tinsel]

they probably figured the bugfixes we got from 11.1 ptr will tide us over until Midnight

[haughty mural]

What is left for us?

[swift tinsel]

which, don't get me wrong, those were some nice breadcrumbs

but still crumbs

[lilac stag]

swap it with blade rush. problem bandaid fixed

[swift tinsel]

right, would be super easy

[lilac stag]

not every fix needs to take 25967234597245 dev thoughts

[swift tinsel]

that was my thought too but iirc its as popular as ks lol

[vale pine]

neverless, enough complaning

[swift tinsel]

but it has none of the janky kill-yourself mechanics

[vale pine]

in the end even tho we get the least amount of attention

subtlety is still the best designed rogue spec

https://tenor.com/view/rpx_syria-mic-drop-gif-19149907

[lilac stag]

show me someone that wants KS > BR every 15 seconds and I'll show you a liar

[swift tinsel]

I always had fun with BR when I played outlaw

could do some fun stuff with the dash

[vale pine]

KS was not reworked in DF

even tho it rly needed a update

i did say this during DF, it should be top prio to fix

so maybe they find time in 11.2

[lilac stag]

you could argue it was fine when it was a long CD. now it's just cancer

[vale pine]

i think we had this discussion

with exsang

it was still removed

[swift tinsel]

plus you get locked out of building/spending cp the whole time you're in the animation

[vale pine]

even tho it was actually not bad with a high cd

[swift tinsel]

which feels like butt

on top of potentially dying

[lilac stag]

exsang would have been so much better with 90 second vanish

or double vanish

the disjointed CDs, suprisingly, suck for most players

[swift tinsel]

was exsang the active ability bleed double tick?

or twice as fast

[vale pine]

yes

[swift tinsel]

ah ty

brain farted and the spell data wasn't popping up in wh

[lilac stag]

i miss u

[swift tinsel]

ah yeah that bb

[lilac stag]

some of my best work

[swift tinsel]

lmao

[warm depot]

throw up the dave gif

best homebrew artwork

[swift tinsel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/316923898501529600/1342596269193039943/9l2o5h.gif

also got Reverse Dave in case we get buffed

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/316923898501529600/1365042674842992660/9l2o5h-ezgif.com-reverse.gif

[warm depot]

bless

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/im-dead-gif-20431926

[swift tinsel]

which won't happen but its nice to dream

[lilac stag]

this needs dave

[swift tinsel]

hahaha

[warm depot]

the self flagellation every time the state of the spec is brought up

[swift tinsel]

except this Flag actually does damage

heyo

[lilac stag]

put flag dmg into dance kthx

[vale pine]

i think flagellation would be way better if it was a self buff

[warm depot]

heyoo

[lilac stag]

it would be way better if it was just part of sblades and we got a dance buff

[swift tinsel]

combine flag+blades would be quite nice

[warm depot]

bring back dust for the bad memes

[swift tinsel]

would not be mad with that change

would tidy up the cd windows

[lilac stag]

dont bring dust back until they fix the crangled CDs of the base spec

[warm depot]

that’s the funny part though

[swift tinsel]

I'm team fixed dance cd

[vestal escarp]

got warbound jastor

[swift tinsel]

2x charge, 45 sec cd

[warm depot]

cdr is one of the more fun things this game offers i feel like

[swift tinsel]

Eh, I'm not a fan

[warm depot]

number go up because other number go down? sign me up

[lilac stag]

its a piss poor excuse to try to force uptime

[swift tinsel]

but then reliance on things like skyfury become worse

which is not good

or if you lowroll GUID and can't get uptime

[warm depot]

that’s fair

i’m just a monkey brain

[swift tinsel]

on the surface it sounds like fun but there's a lot of krangling that can make uptime-based cdr really bad

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/focus-homer-simpson-monkey-cymbals-gif-14075286

[warm depot]

that’s right

[swift tinsel]

and for a spec that is all about optimizing burst windows, messing with that due to rng can be really shitty

[lilac stag]

should play warrior then ;p

[warm depot]

i keep telling my guild that i’ll never swap because no other spec is as fun as sub

even with all the quirks

[lilac stag]

we have two opposing gameplay mechanics for a "burst" spec. one is flag and needing to build it. the other is cdr to get cds up faster. then you see a real burst spec like dev that can hit 3 abilitys and go nuclear

[swift tinsel]

yeah devs damage is so frontloaded in the opener its massive, no building required at all

get breath up, get star debuff up, double engulf and you're in the stratosphere

[lilac stag]

idk if any other spec needs to build as much as sub and flag

for it's burst

[swift tinsel]

flag, and 2nd dance flawless

two tiers of annoyance there

[warm depot]

xdd or when i get no stacks of the tier set

[keen dome]

I am having fun today just doing big gaps in random +10's I join

I am the worst DPS spec and I BLAST

[warm depot]

and i’m sitting on 2 stacks in 2nd dance

hehehe hahahaha

[swift tinsel]

sub in non-sweaty keys is a good time lol

[keen dome]

Yeah, it's great around 10's

[swift tinsel]

that's about where I capped out this season

[short radish]

Discount venthyr boomkin

[keen dome]

I'll push to 3k once I finish upgrading gear

[swift tinsel]

I thought about it but I'd rather just hang up my boots for the season and see what 11.2 brings

maybe I come back end of the season and try for 3k for the mount

but atm I cba to play wow

[keen dome]

3k is the final thing i need for my typical completionism list

Unless I go for 1.8k but I don't really care about this seasons set

[swift tinsel]

I hit 2.5k this season for the first time and that was my m+ goal so I'm content either way

I'm not really that big into keys

[serene notch]

It’s not to bad with upgrade I think

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[swift tinsel]

I think I got all portals except Priory

[serene notch]

Gl getting into keys as sub though just be prepared to do your own

[keen dome]

They're gonna just get easier and easier too

[swift tinsel]

but that was just a bonus

I did all mine with my guild so it was chill and we had discord

[serene notch]

I’m 2950 and I think k I gave up after about 30 mins of trying g to get into 13s

[swift tinsel]

1000% the more fun way to go, up to that point I pugged ksm/2100ish the last few xpacs

[keen dome]

My best was pugging 3.1k in DF S3. 2.5k since DF though.

[swift tinsel]

Hell yeah

[keen dome]

I like to pug, do di dah

[swift tinsel]

I always ran my own keys when I did and that made a world of difference

[keen dome]

The gally pug I joined today was really fun 'cos we pushed him to 48% in P1 lmao

[swift tinsel]

no hoping party lead remembers a lust class

[warm depot]

i got carried in 14s for my 3k LMAO skipped all my 13s

[keen dome]

I'm absolutely going to hit the "hey, hey I'm just a little guy. help a little guy out" tactic when I need to do 13 / 14's since I know a few very big key players

[warm depot]

not that i didn’t do anything but it’s hard when u have a udk and dev doing all the shit for me

yeah lol they were like shouldn’t you play sin for these keys and i just said nah that wouldn’t be as fun

if i fall asleep mid key it’s a brick vs me doing less damage lmao

[fickle mason]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

just don't brag about beating any russians on the leaderboards and you're good

[fickle mason]

With the sheet dungeon slice showing sub/outlaw over sin, why not more aub/outlaw players for dungeons?

[warm depot]

aoe cap

[vale pine]

because dungeon slice has short living packs, assassination wins in sustained aoe which is not presented that well

[upbeat cradle]

Same, i even manage to get refused from 10s

[spare garnet]

Sub rogues with 2900 rating are probably pretty good at there class as a player. So why not inviting them.you can q as assis and then switch back hahah 😂

Im one dung away from 3k atm. 😎

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[hollow goblet]

Hey guys, could I get a little help? I'm a noob Subtlety Rogue who only does heroic raiding, and I'm not doing as much damage as I should be parse-wise, even though I think I'm doing fine with the rotation (followed everything from Wowhead's guide). Also, sims say that my Turbo-Drain 5000 at 658 ilvl is better than House of Cards at 655 (sim here: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ue3Vx2PkshffqNZwUFkR4x).

Here are some logs from last night's raid session. If any kind soul is willing to help me out and point me in the right direction, I'd really appreciate it: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ymJz3KNhnjRqA6Z1?fight=14

[hazy breach]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals of during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[swift tinsel]

first step would be cleaning up your opening sequence

[vestal escarp]

article online?

[swift tinsel]

submitted but waiting for wowhead to publish it

could be any day

[hazy breach]

Wowhead doesnt want to spam out the articles (ironic, but true)

[swift tinsel]

gotta farm those views later in the week now that they can push Turbo articles

[graceful crown]

do you guys think a 671 jastor will beat the goddamn cyrclet

i want that thing off so bad

[tepid trellis]

prolly not

[graceful crown]

i mean i can sim it, i just want to complain really

that shit has turned my finger green by now

[swift tinsel]

wasn't the stated intention to have it replaced by heroic-level rings

[alpine wraith]

if you dont stack mastery yes

but we do

[swift tinsel]

ah true caveat

[tepid trellis]

requires them to care about edge case specs

which they dont

[lilac stag]

why are people bent over not having to spend crests?

[swift tinsel]

?

[lilac stag]

i dont have to upgrade 1 item? fucking amazing

less time wasted

in game

[swift tinsel]

crests are basically free so idk if that's the point of contention

[lilac stag]

ilvl is pointless so what else is there?

[swift tinsel]

the gear chase

[graceful crown]

i can get all my crests and flightstones to spare in less than 1 day

[swift tinsel]

which is real for people

[lilac stag]

get over it 🙂

[swift tinsel]

the idea of having a piece of gear you're basically gifted

is still bis

[lilac stag]

yeah lets go back to farming EoN endlessly. really fun

[tepid trellis]

i just dont like having old tier stuff equipped

[swift tinsel]

hyperbolic

[graceful crown]

this

[lilac stag]

all the gear is old. just had 6 more ilvl lol

idk i'll take my free ring and ignore 2 m+ runs gladly

[graceful crown]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

feels good

[swift tinsel]

then thats cool for you

[uncut oriole]

It did for me. Best way to know is to sim it.

[swift tinsel]

[lilac stag]

and valor stones can fuck right off

guess what doesnt need valor stones

ring

[wild hornet]

whats the new ilvl craft level, is it 681?

[lilac stag]

yes

you may need to uncheck this

[wild hornet]

thank you

[lilac stag]

np!

[vale pine]

especially if its one of the worse designed trinkets in history ^^

[graceful crown]

is there a way to sim drop optimizer and apply ring slots to sim the non-existent jastor in my bags to weigh it

[lilac stag]

add the ring to your gear in top gear

[graceful crown]

sorry im not very tech-savvy, i can do that?

[graceful crown]

ok i figured it out

now this, is epic

[hollow plinth]

there is an issue with top gear rn

[wild hornet]

are the dinars here? im itching the cleft neck

[hollow plinth]

Generating items at the new item levels are not being read at the correct ilvl internally when simmed

[lilac stag]

it's fine, we're sub rogues here. used to not doing dps

[graceful crown]

i was wondering the same

[lilac stag]

how are you planning on getting a neck?

[wild hornet]

you can buy mythic dungeon items with them if you have all +12s timed or so

or that was w the coins

[lilac stag]

you can buy trinkets

the vendor is right next to the quest

[wild hornet]

wait theres a quest?

que

[lilac stag]

is that on both the live and the ptr versions?

[wild hornet]

are you sure you cant buy other items like rings and necks?

thatd be pretty dumb

[lilac stag]

you can buy trinkets

from m+

that is all

[hollow plinth]

hmm i think top gear on mimiron is working

[lilac stag]

i was doing most of my stuff in mimiron so wasn't paying attention

it seemed expected

let me try a crafted ring

[hollow plinth]

live: generating a 671 offhand is a loss https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bgpWM6dB4YwtK6AMX9csMP

mimiron: generating 671 offhand is a gain, as it should https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3vTpyzi8PjNVXXyHXSPurC

[serene notch]

It is with great joy I finally get to get rid of transmitter.

[keen trellis]

Better jump 3 times out of joy

[graceful crown]

ok jastor is pretty bad for me

rip

[lilac stag]

try it on the ptr site (read up a few messaged

[alpine wraith]

is this week a craft week?

[graceful crown]

sure

[lilac stag]

shrug you should be able to

[alpine wraith]

might craft engi helmet finally

[lilac stag]

idk i'm sitting on 3. maybe it was cata

[alpine wraith]

oh wait no i only have half a spark

[lilac stag]

yeah cata week

hmm, heroic jastor worth same as a crafted

ez choice there

[graceful crown]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hsiFtKuQrR96nqKS4eYBJp

only 2 k dps less

[vestal escarp]

no life flex?

[graceful crown]

[lilac stag]

and I avoid playing the game

you should have had 900 going into reset

[alpine wraith]

yea almost done too

only need wep and neck recraft

[keen dome]

I've got six items left but lfg boss is the worst

[pastel rampart]

make friends angle

[alpine wraith]

i just used my key

[slate marlin]

gilded achievement doesnt give you a discount on your main right

[delicate wind]

What are the other weeks? Oh the tier upgrades where literally zero vaults or mythic raid drops happen that I can use for tier..

[alpine wraith]

it gives you discount on itmes that are lower ilvl than the 675 or 678 etc

[lilac stag]

@alpine wraith how those SecTechs at 10milly looking ...

envenom

[alpine wraith]

yea i have gotten a 10m already

wonder if i can get higher

i did have azerokk in vault

but also tier gloves

that i didnt have so unluck

[lilac stag]

I got crit master avoidance gloves

Finally got a mythic helm to Cara this week

[sly shore]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[alpine wraith]

this week only need to recraft wep and neck

then next one i craft engi helmet

[round latch]

whats wrong with u man

😂

[vestal escarp]

What

[slate marlin]

i hope you guys are na

if u are eu and have already fsrmed 400 crests...jesus

[vale pine]

the grind is real ^^

[alpine wraith]

yea we are eu

real chads

nothing else to do

apart from stay in bench

now after farming more i can go play LE again

[hazy breach]

If you trade up your lower ones its feasible

I didnt have that many, but some in my guild had barely used their lower crests so they could instantly get like 300 gildeds

[ashen dock]

I thought I was doing well going from 668 to 675

Daym I’m slow

[hazy breach]

Tbf some people also started at 675

Just keep pumpin

[round latch]

sounds like poe 2 to me

[alpine wraith]

poe 2 i already played kinda

but have to finish the char too but first i want to kill uber aberroth

[round latch]

big gamer

[lost kite]

What does it require to recraft do we need to add more crests?

[swift tinsel]

you buy an augment matrix

from the vendor who sells harbinger crests

[hybrid prism]

Can we buy sub buffs with gilded crests? Asking for a friend

[swift tinsel]

best we can do is No Tuning

[hybrid prism]

“What the fuck is a subtlety rouge” -blizzard probably

And yes spelling it wrong was part of the joke

[upbeat escarp]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tulip gorge]

[vestal escarp]

Corruptions coming out

Checks out

[alpine wraith]

big corruption

[vale pine]

we will for sure get ahead once corruption kicks in

[halcyon ridge]

really?

[slate marlin]

enh is that weak in raid?

weak=5 points ahead of sub anyway xddddddddd

[vale pine]

i was mostly joking, corruption is equally strong on all specs

[vestal escarp]

Enha that weak?

For real?

[swift tinsel]

they def got reigned in compared to season 1

but that middle section is all fairly close to each other

then the precipitous drop to frost mage and sub lol

[alpine wraith]

we are still ahead of tanks

[haughty rose]

sometimes

[swift tinsel]

only 2.3 stdev's off the mean of that chart

'extremely significant statistical difference'

[green plaza]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[slate marlin]

so far

[alpine wraith]

roulette wheel dropped but circe and jastor too stronk https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/kcWcKvuQxfB6PgaTM1Esf5

what a sad world

[swift tinsel]

that's wild, wtf

[wicked urchin]

i might go on a cringe mission this week to get as many heroic rank 1s as possible

what else is there to do when i'm sitting on mugzee

[alpine wraith]

im sitting on mug and gally

zzzzz

[gilded jungle]

Same

[wicked urchin]

im in for gally at least

not sure if im playing ass or not though

[warm marlin]

too much mastery prob?

[slate marlin]

hacha has like

34k mastery

[warm marlin]

ya gotta be

had me recraft neck to crit vers at like 25k

[left ledge]

Yooooo

What’s good my fellow sub rogues

[alpine wraith]

im cucked by my guild cant buy jastor because i havent killed gally yet

[left ledge]

My sub sims 2.5 does 2.3 st

Sin sims 2.4 does 2.7

[alpine wraith]

just highroll!

[left ledge]

Yeah so here’s my experience as sub

If I press any finisher out of dance

I drop tier stacks

[alpine wraith]

set goes bye

aaay

[left ledge]

It’s almost guaranteed

I swear

I forget I even have tier on sin

[warm marlin]

sin tier almost feels worse idk

sometimes my dn envenom hits for 9M on opener sometimes 17

crazy stuff

[left ledge]

Idk man I don’t even see my tier on sin

[patent crystal]

swear stacks on assa stay forever

[left ledge]

On sub all your damage is in a condensed window

And you drop stacks before that it’s gg for you

For someone like me that’s just too much

[warm marlin]

i aggressively rupture spam i can't lie

[patent crystal]

and every time i check stacks on sub they disappear

[left ledge]

After all I’m the mythical 11% uptime Sophic master proc (not) god

Tbf though on assa I go 10+ muts every exe phase with no blindsides

So I hate my life either way now on rogue

[alpine wraith]

im omegaunlucky too with procs yea

at least belt is going up and down

[merry agate]

Truuuee

Pressing coup outside of dance and im fighting demons

[sick jackal]

is there a catchup on raid reputation

[kind bluff]

sims are showing me that chaos flask is top atm?

[hazy breach]

Always has been

[alpine wraith]

yea

can be unreliable

but pot goes hard

[small inlet]

on a scale 1-10, how troll is it to swap to sub for gally prog? i can't take another sin prog

[alpine wraith]

just dont die boss is a joke

you will do fine on both

assa just does more dmg

if you have to do bomb sub may be better because you are tankier

so chances to die are lower but still

[small inlet]

gotcha, I'll write a convincing dm to my RL then hehe

[pearl swan]

!backstab

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow DanceThis will cast Shadow Dance on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[wide kernel]

Wait what alchemical chaos isn't better than vers pot for sub is it?

No way with haste as bad as it is and the stat subtraction

[vale pine]

sub is probably even better on the fight, but it does not matter

[alpine wraith]

it is better

because pot is better with it and crit mastery and vers buffs are ok

haste is not super bad on st either

[wide kernel]

Uhm then you should be swapping flasks for every pot

[warm marlin]

i do not believe you can swap flasks in raid combat

if you watch tgp though they do swap flasks for pot

[wide kernel]

I forget this is raid channel sometimes

Also tried sin in raid for the first time last night is such a joke compared to sub to complexity

[lofty lance]

i think im getting benched next raid :c

[alpine wraith]

round round

[slate marlin]

Just a 360 for style points

[alpine wraith]

was a wipe anyway

extra style points

[lofty lance]

sub rogue cant do dmg but can make bosses dizzy

[wispy bolt]

no one ever assumes a question is about m+ here lol its kinda annoying

[ionic shore]

I love sub but I'm so mad at how bad it is!!!!!

[random mason]

Worse than aug confirmed stay small

[graceful crown]

does bubbling wax have to be on mainhand if attack power is so good for us?

i thought mainhand whetstone and bubbling off was the play

[ionic shore]

What is our favorite sub ability

[graceful crown]

the stabbing ones

[wide kernel]

I think it's because like 5 people In total actually play sub in keys regardless of how good it is

[warm depot]

mods? ban this tourist

[warm depot]

i think its 2x whet

isnt it

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[graceful crown]

yes but i heard attack power on off-hand doesn't matter too much and since bubbling is competitive 2nd best choice

it saves some coin and helps with some aoe cleave

[warm depot]

oo

fair enough

[graceful crown]

tho in both options it says bubbling on mainhand

which confuses me

[warm depot]

prob just offhand to proc?

[warm depot]

weird

[lilac stag]

just use whetstones. They’re fning cheap

[ionic shore]

V weird

[wide kernel]

Wax gives more procs?

[ionic shore]

I wish they would make vanish only sub

Is this a cooked take chat

[graceful crown]

dont let outlaw rogues see this, you'll get hunt down

[ionic shore]

Actually the hunt is a dh ability

[graceful crown]

by removing vanish outlaw will be unplayable

[ionic shore]

True they need to rework it

I don't like juggling vanish anyways on that spec

[graceful crown]

also vanish is kind of the least useful on sub

[merry agate]

https://tenor.com/view/disintegrating-funny-thanos-gif-22399978

[graceful crown]

its ok, guys,k surely they'll see this and buff us

[wide kernel]

Sub buff soon I can feel it

[merry agate]

Emergency Frost buffs on the way

Sub? Just play assa dude 🤷‍♂️

[graceful crown]

the sub in subtlety is for subpar and sub-human

[ionic shore]

Sub = submissive because I love the blizzard devs topping me

[warm depot]

thats right

i take daddy ion very well by now

[ionic shore]

I used to have a Kermit bending over gaping emoji

I miss it

[wide kernel]

At least sub isn't ret paladin tier of difficulty

[ionic shore]

True ret paladins such

Suck

I hate them

[merry agate]

Hey hey i just did some 10's for crests as sub!

And then i thought about how i dont have any SD charges and why am i backstabbing right now?

Sudden demise could hit right now for like 20 Million if i would play assa

[warm depot]

true we're all masochists who keep playing this shit spec

[wide kernel]

What sub will actually do is make you good at the game

[ionic shore]

If you top as sub you need a new guild

[wide kernel]

I actually have fun with sub in keys except brew

Fuck brew

[slate marlin]

brew as sub is awful

[random hare]

swap to sin cuh

[merry agate]

I swear to god. tier % chance of losing stacks is sus af

Feels like 45%

[wide kernel]

I think you can see over 4mil overall in brew as sub, it's just annoying is all

Cmlo was getting 3.60 in a shit comp 6 weeks ago so yeah

[slate marlin]

already did

[wide kernel]

Ipa room is the real problem imo. Whole room makes you feel pressured to hit cds and too many casters. I took a break from keys but my tank was cooking up something nice

[ivory dome]

yall think a 684 mega magnet is better than a 671 sig?

[wide kernel]

For sub?

[ivory dome]

oh shit my bad thought this was sin lol

[random mason]

Time the 12s and get myth signet

[ivory dome]

i used it for pacemaker already

[wide kernel]

Sim it

[ivory dome]

I did mag Sims 7k more but I'm sussed out lol

[wide kernel]

Magnet is kinda sus because you have to use it all the time is what I think

[hazy breach]

Is "sig" referring to signet?

Because that shit is awful on sub

Effectively a 3 min cd, no bueno

Magnet is fine for ST, just use it whenever and dont let it cap

[lapis hatch]

Don’t take signet if you’re sub

[wide kernel]

He accidentally posted in this channel, he meant to post in sin

[hazy breach]

Isee

[steel sierra]

Can you vanish the ice boots on M Mugzee?

[short radish]

no

[wicked urchin]

yay my guild killed mugzee im free from bench prison

67 pulls

[lilac stag]

wtf would you bench one of the best classes on that hardest fight of the tier?

[deft oar]

its over boys o7

[lilac stag]

Congrats on swapping to

[short radish]

another one bites the dust

[tribal blade]

MUGZEE IS DEAD

i guess i'm just a god tier sin rogue

woulda probably gotten a 99 or so but i died right at the very end

our tank was the only person left alive

[short radish]

may as well just change your name to be a red as well now

also gzgzgzgz

2nd hardest boss of the game done

are you gonna stick with assi for gally as well?

[tribal blade]

ikr, i'm a traitor

[tribal blade]

i honestly dunno, they both look like turbo dog

what would you recommend

sin is like, slightly better

[short radish]

honestly if youre looking at pure metrics

sin is better hands down

but i dunno

sub felt really really comfy there

you have a dance for every single add set

but sin does more boss damage

[worn ivy]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cCVR8NVCYd51Rn4ZRnSLSn

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-perfectlybalanced-gif-18301221

[round latch]

why are u stat weighting brother

[warm marlin]

sub tankier

not that it really matters much

gally should explode with turbo boost ilvl

[haughty mural]

*god tier rogue

Fixed it

[worn ivy]

All this upgrades im almost 682

And still Z dam

Week 1 dps 😂😂

I dont wanna believe this there should be some hidden build waiting to be discovered

[haughty mural]

Now you are exaggerating

We still have top 5 burst

[short radish]

if fights could last exactly 2 minutes

that'd be great

first 2 minutes of mugzee

im top of the charts

king of the world baby

then its all down hill from there

[maiden oar]

theyre going to release the build after sub gets a 10% aura buff

[ashen dock]

Hmm, there seems to be another error on wowheads part. Still no sub rogue buff, maybe it's not rereshing correctly

[bleak night]

next week for sure

[ashen dock]

oh boy, we are down bad

ey we don't let that effect us though, we push on

[tall girder]

I think they will nerf sub rogue again

[haughty mural]

I hope not

[short radish]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[short radish]

!wa\

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[tall girder]

Wooo Fimb

[remote shuttle]

Was thinking what if they change the set bonus interaction (not losing ws charges) and relate it to SoD rather than SD... Prob lot better

[tribal blade]

awww ❤️

[alpine wraith]

big blaster

[vale pine]

rogue spec popularity follows mostly tuning

[short radish]

yeah but even at subs most recent "peak" of smolderon

wasnt it still relatively even between assi and sub

[tribal blade]

iirc at first sub was the most dominant on smoldy

until sin started catching up

DM during execute and dmg amp went hard

[vale pine]

subtlety got buffed because of the tier set nerfs

so pre season and first 1-2 weeks you had sin looking to be the play

but blizz buffed sin by 5-6%

[short radish]

sin always catches up ecks dee

[vale pine]

while it was performing about on par

in statistics

on top of that

the hardest fight in the raid is heavily favored for assassiantion

it leads to this one sided spec distribution, especially if tuning and design is not done carefully

[plush roost]

Dw guys boss 4-5 of the raid will have damage amps every 1.5mins and because of that sub will look phenomenal. They will nerf it, and boss 6-8 will be a 2 minute profile fight

Its written in the cards

Oh and there will be a fight thats really really really good for outlaw but has something that makes killing spree unviable

Thats guaranteed as well

[keen dome]

Random hammers slam down around the boss but only when KS fires

[plush roost]

More polarity mechanics surely

Silken court but ks is your only viable talent

MonkaS

[heady helm]

so ive mastered assa pretty much now just pumping and ive been playing outlaw for a while...

turly how bad is sub?\

[tribal blade]

well it's the lowest tuned spec in the game currently

[heady helm]

SO its destined for a buff at some point?

[keen dome]

In 12.0.1 sure

[tribal blade]

you would think so

[heady helm]

oh next xpac awesome

[tribal blade]

but apparently blizz doesn't want to tune sub

[heady helm]

I mean frost mage and both sub rogue output less than aug like the fuck is this game

keep aug low delete it from the game

[tribal blade]

i'm truly curious why blizz decided to not tune sub

they gotta have a reason, would be cool to know why

[heady helm]

How can we bitch until they fix it i havent tried it yet because it performs so poorly but aparently now that im getting into 13 and 14 keys ill need to learn sub for last boss rookery and thats about it huhu?

[sacred yarrow]

"We were unable to allocate the resources in time, please be patient while we rework one of the most beloved specs in the game!" -- Blizz, probably.

[short radish]

they want the spec deleted

same with frost mage apparently

[keen dome]

Well, too bad. I will never stop playing Sub. I will be the load bearing Rogue.

[heady helm]

Sub has alwasy been one of the top burst/single target specs in game like plesae fix it lol

[keen dome]

Unless they give us 4th spec that's a tank. That'd get me off Sub. Hint. hint. hint.

[short radish]

not always

well

in recent history we had a period of time

where our damage was flatter than outlaw

but tbh sub is mostly "fine" from gameplay stance

we're one 10% buff away from being good

[tribal blade]

yeah sub already has quite good use in raid, mostly for blowing up adds on fights

so with tuning we could be a very valuable raid spec

[alpine wraith]

yea they decided they dont want that in an extreme with tier set changes

but maybe just some number tuning

a 4% would leave us smack in the middle

[keen dome]

Yeah, just shoving an aura buff would go a long way right now

[sly shore]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tribal blade]

it's time for the over compensation buff

+20% evis dmg, +20% sectec

[toxic swan]

hey, could anyone tell me what the best dinar investment would be for fresh sub? I don't plan on doing mythic raid

and will mostly play just m+

[remote eagle]

HoC if you don`t have it, if you do, sim other options

[sly shore]

what this person said

[formal helm]

15.3.0 at this point

you were too optimistic with your prognosis

[short radish]

nah

we'll be buffed sometime between 12.0.1 and 14.0.1

and then nerfed to the ground again

[formal helm]

ye but dw, aug will still be above us

[short radish]

fuck aug

but yes

[formal helm]

[tribal blade]

i did a key with an aug today

[formal helm]

same.

[tribal blade]

we were just pushing up a 15

on the last boss

this guy picks up the candle and goes halfway across the room

instead of just picking it up and sidestepping slightly out of the beam

[formal helm]

I was in a +10, fooling around with guildies
but was actually nice benefitting from it

last time that I played with aug was like s3 of df

and then it was always misaligned cds

[tribal blade]

it looks like they do way more personal damage

[formal helm]

yeh

[tribal blade]

they don't buff as much now

[formal helm]

he still pulled off like 2m

or smth

was quite cozy

I only realised friend respeced from deva to aug on 3rd boss in top tho

fucking gorechop

[short radish]

yeah aug has one of the highest 30sec burst in the game now or something

[formal helm]

was wondering why it was dying so slowly.

[short radish]

LOL

fuck aug

[formal helm]

bc like his deva was blasting

like 3.7-4.0m dps overall

and then this comes in with 2m

which is phenomenal for aug I guess

just a bit underwhelming compared to deva

[short radish]

its the classic

why play aug when you can play dev

and also

why play sub when you can play assi

[formal helm]

bc I love the gameplay and suffering!

[remote eagle]

i refuse to play assa and hate what they did to outlaw

[short radish]

i'll play assi in keys if theres no shaman

[remote eagle]

so sad sub life it is

[formal helm]

I'd rather quit the game then not play sub at this point

so ye

[short radish]

but fuck playing it in raid

[formal helm]

sad thing is that I still eek out 2nd or 3rd dps in raid

after our deva and feral

feral guy lowkey pumping

[short radish]

we just need fights to be 2mins long

[formal helm]

true

[short radish]

look how beautiful this is

then off the cliff i go

[formal helm]

yeh..it's just shite

oh well.

[lilac stag]

@tribal blade

[tribal blade]

suh 😉

[lilac stag]

Was supposed to be a reply to mugzs

[tribal blade]

oh ty 🙂

[limpid sage]

2% pull on bandit yesterday... so no mythic HoC till sunday (if we get it down) T_T

[tribal blade]

yeah thank god we killed it on a pull that was good for me

[limpid sage]

didn't have a monk either

[tribal blade]

that might have been the difference right there

[lilac stag]

so dead if your were

[tribal blade]

when everyone in your guild is fully turbo boosted it'll die easier

[limpid sage]

ALSO

every single clear of mythic I've been on

we haven't had either warr buff or monk buff

it's actually not fair

[limpid sage]

yes I'm considering learning it as well

some bosses feel so shit as sub

[brittle plinth]

Has anyone ever made a "this spec for this boss" list for undermine?

[pearl swan]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[short radish]

Yeah here's mine

Every single boss: Don't play sub it fucking sucks

[junior prawn]

Yes it sucks till it gets a ranged rework where you use shadows and shurikens to do damage

[short radish]

sub rework into ninja spec when

[hard plaza]

We already have a ranged spec at home tho…

[lilac stag]

Sub Rogue: The Temu DPS spec of WoW

[alpine wraith]

i tried so haaard

and ye so farrrr

my rank 1 did not even matter

only 500k dps behind mm

might actually be more by now

[lilac stag]

the realization that you coulda have had a prog kill if you played the other spec.

[keen dome]

Dev Burst.

[alpine wraith]

when i dont even see myself in top 5 on opener

zzzzzzz

[lilac stag]

You have to god mode proc for that

at least assa gives you some of catching up in execute

[keen dome]

Dev in this random normal hitting like, 14m burst lmao

Some real "oh come on"

[lilac stag]

Just the new enhance for sub to be jelly of

Next tier it’ll be boomkin

[wild hornet]

Rng game

On my sprock prog either I'm in the gutters or I'm suddenly one mil above everyone else

[alpine wraith]

i mean we are not in sprocket prog

boss dies in 4 mins

we are 679

XD

but all the good specs go brrrr

[lilac stag]

You also aren’t getting assigned first bombs on sproken.

[cloud rover]

Thats why i changed to sin for Gally now

[lilac stag]

Our burr is a small engine that hasn’t been serviced in 4 years. Oil is not even oil. Spark plug is toast. 2 year old fuel sitting in tank.

We are Sub Rogue

https://tenor.com/view/cars-disney-pixar-mater-tow-mater-gif-17664327480993530485

[cloud rover]

So some might say

Playing Subtlety for Prog

is

Suboptimal ?

[lilac stag]

Some lad earlier saying they’re out of bench prison for mugzee prog and that just blows my mind.

Either your RL is an idiot, or you were too proud to swap to assa which is quite literally one of the best specs on that boss.

[cloud rover]

I did too

But was in Jails

(Im Velf and had to)

[lilac stag]

not benched though

[cloud rover]

Hard to be benched

As officer

But i benched myself on stix

[honest void]

oooo power play

[lilac stag]

tbf hard to get benched as a rogue on that fight

Even if you have 2 magically, you run them both

[cloud rover]

Do you like me more or less now

[honest void]

don't think it's possible for me to like you less

wait

[lilac stag]

shots fired

[honest void]

i think that's one of those responses that sounds bad either way i phrase it

[lilac stag]

[cloud rover]

WAIT

[lilac stag]

You need a qualifier

[cloud rover]

I THOUGHT YOU LOVED ME

[lilac stag]

and it was on this day, we broke up

[honest void]

I'M SORRY, I CAN'T ENGLISH WELL

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/corey-coreytonge-corey-tonge-gaming-gamer-gif-5471423073120643083

[cloud rover]

Says the Bri'ish

[honest void]

my biggest sin

[honest void]

nothing you could do could make me hate you

FTFY

[void ocean]

More?

[cloud rover]

You dont hate me, but you could still not love me

[void ocean]

🤣

[cloud rover]

Try "Nothing you do, would stop me from loving you"

[honest void]

how can I prove myself to you again?

[void ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/why-are-you-why-are-you-gay-pepe-julian-who-is-gay-you-are-gay-gif-15004128

[cloud rover]

Make an AI generated short apology

[honest void]

but if it's made from AI, then it wouldn't convey the feelings in my heart

[cloud rover]

Tell the AI

to make it more feely

[honest void]

can it even feel?

[tulip gorge]

maybe the AI will buff sub in the next tuning post

[cloud rover]

Ask if the AI can feel

[cloud rover]

What does ChatGPT feel about deez nuts

[sly shore]

chatgpt does come in clutch when you're at a headscratcher trying to fix some formulas in google sheets but you're unsure of the exact formatting

simple things like that it's helpful

anything more in depth it can suck a fat one and spits out useless garbage

[cloud rover]

It can help tbh

Even with other stuff

[alpine wraith]

usually locally built models are very useful

if trimmed correctly i have some that i use for routing and meshing of some vlans

wonder how it would do for things in games but they may be too dynamic

[vestal escarp]

feeling nostalgic today

[fair anchor]

Good ole MA

[tribal blade]

how about pre nerf obedience giving 30% vers

[vestal escarp]

never liked flag in shadowlands

for me it was a sin ability

[cloud rover]

IMAGINE THE CDR AND LASHING SCARS OF SL

You had like Flag every second Dance

[tribal blade]

yeah they could put lashing scars and obe in the spec tree

[cloud rover]

and so much Prio damage

[vestal escarp]

to cast flag more often?

[tribal blade]

i guess they couldn't put the cdr on flag though

it would fuck everything up

[cloud rover]

Well if it gets to 45 seconds

(which it did in SL)

[vestal escarp]

with obedience?

nah it was like 32 seconds max

[cloud rover]

Nah

[vestal escarp]

nah

[cloud rover]

You couldve have like 39 Seconds

i remember

[tribal blade]

iirc flag got to a 1.1 min

down from 1.5

something like that

[cloud rover]

in AOE you could get it lower

[tribal blade]

i thought it was capped

[cloud rover]

You could get max stacks of 30

[tribal blade]

at 30

[cloud rover]

but you could CDR beyond that

im pretty sure

[tribal blade]

ah ok, i'm surprised i didn't know that

[vestal escarp]

i belive him

[cloud rover]

I rememer using it and having 40 Seconds left or something like that

[tribal blade]

oh you know what, were you also using dust

leggo

[cloud rover]

No i dont think so

but maybe it is

[tribal blade]

dude dust outlaw was fucking nuts