looks fine to me, we're on top
#subtlety
keen dome
tribal blade
i too am viewing this from australia
slate marlin
But thatsvlike saying sub is bad bc everyone is playing assa
Its way too low for it to be bc of bad players
keen dome
We've remained pretty static since the season launch 'cos we didn't get much power with tier. Arguably, the aura buff initially was more impactful. womp womp.
lilac stag
But thatsvlike saying sub is bad bc everyone is playing assa
assa has a lower overall ranking than outlaw at 95th percent
slate marlin
Yep, over s range of 1 week it does
What does that have to do with my point
Sub isnt bad bc people are playing assa, outlaw is still strong even if assa is thr meta spec
slate marlin
I still dont get your point
lilac stag
The range on frost is partially tuning and partially fights. Sub is arguably better on all the fights just absolutely dog shit tuned.
race to the bottom
mugzee was carrying frost. I think that’s changing
ah it and gally still are
slate marlin
But thatsvlike saying sub is bad bc everyone is playing assa
Yeah thats my point, its tuning issue mostly not people playing the other specs
lilac stag
Well for rogue that’s a chicken /egg. people played sub, until they didn’t and now it’s basically full on assa tier.
frost has 9k entires. Assa has 12k
Pirate and ninja coming in at 2.4 and 2k.
slate marlin
Well thats also bc no one plays rogue
If the best rogue players were on sub,sub would still be bottom, closer, but still bad
wide kernel
it really is heavily neglected, it would be a very simple change to make deathstalker a viable hero spec for sub
blackpowder now also works for darkest night, very simple and its just not done for some mystery reason
lilac stag
no one wants deathstalker as sub
Our CDR is too fucked up on the base spec
and trickster bandaids that
tough knot
If only they brought back DFA for legion remix
lilac stag
adjust dance CDR. Cut down skyfury reliance. Remove FW. Those are likely the 3 easiest fixes they could do immediately.
upper narwhal
at this point delete CDR from Sub and make it a static spec, needing a hero talent to make the CDR playable is so ass
lilac stag
They’re not going to remove CDR without a rework
And that ain’t happening this expansion
upper narwhal
a man can dream
vestal escarp
all cdr 
lilac stag
just dance cdr
and that does what with the current setup?
Or what else are they changing with that?
tribal blade
just so we don't have the uptime problem we currently have
lilac stag
Now your dances just going to be further out
with more out of dance healer dps downtime
tribal blade
well they would change the cd of dance to compensate
lilac stag
Get rid of the CDR. Yay! But what else are you tuning.
tribal blade
ideally
vestal escarp
i think he implyed a different cd baseline
tribal blade
yeah remove cdr and adjust the cd of dance
upper narwhal
30s static cd praying
lilac stag
and Sectech?
tribal blade
i think sectec on cdr is mostly fine atm
it's just not fine as DS
but who cares about DS haha
upper narwhal
delete DS
tribal blade
yeah it's not great, but they aren't going to put that much work into sub
ain't no way
lilac stag
you know what’s less work than removing?
Lowering it .1 .2
just saying 
our mastery sucks. We’ve turned into the old WW Versa specs don’t scale meme
lilac stag
I can’t wait to see the 6ilvl give sub a 2% overall increase when a lot of specs will get a 6% increase from it.
slate marlin
Make mastery buff snd
lilac stag
most of the specs looks like 1 ilvl = 1% increase overall.
that won’t be this spec. Hahah
lord only knows what’s missing in the assa sims where it’s clearly outperforming simc estimates. Some sort of envenom fuckery
lilac stag
with transmitter/hoc
I mean that was a QOL upgrade more than a meaningful dps upgrade (assuming you could play transmitter without fucking it up)
vestal escarp
no i meant thats a spike in ilvl in hoc was like a minor if not even upgrade to myth transmitter
fallow nimbus
Just buff every cdr by a bit on ptr and see how it goes. How can this be so hard?
lilac stag
Meanwhile WW seeing 65k upgrade getting HoC Normal. lol
slate marlin
Just buff every cdr by a bit on ptr and see how it goes. How can this be so hard...
Then they wont have time for the 11th mage hero talent rework
vestal escarp
^
fallow nimbus
What's even the reason for a ptr if the changes are just final shit or never tried?
vestal escarp
the hardest part is getting pairs of hands on keyboards to do that
merry agate
lilac stag
What's even the reason for a ptr if the changes are just final shit or never tri...
for the 12 wow content creators to have something to do for YT algorithm.
slate marlin
Dont forget to have burrowed power be extremely weak the entire ptr cycle and buff it the last day
vestal escarp
What's even the reason for a ptr if the changes are just final shit or never tri...
bro is asking for iterations in the iterative process 
pastel rampart
short radish
i too am viewing this from australia
tribal blade
https://tenor.com/view/brent-my-hero-aus-top-guy-gif-17971844794065873200
oi crikey
she's a top sheila she is
short radish
fukin strewth
tribal blade
i'm boutta wear me thongs and me budgy smuggler to have a ripper time down at the beach
short radish
yeah you ain't here to fuck spiders are ya
tribal blade
yeah you ain't here to fuck spiders are ya
pastel rampart
0/10 no fairy bread
tribal blade
"don't be a hero m8"
what a guy
my last ex was actually an aussie haha
the most aussie thing to happen to her was her name was already shortened from "Rebecca" to "Becca", and of course aussies being aussies that wasn't short enough for them so her friends shortened it more to "Bec"
short radish
0/10 no fairy bread
you just reminded me of that tiktok where some american made an absolute abomination of fairybread
short radish
they tend to do that
short radish
the most aussie thing to happen to her was her name was already shortened from "...
you know
i have a mate
who this has also happened to
tribal blade
hahaaa
tribal blade
aussies still to me the kings of slang
short radish
its a fun language
kind bluff
We are officially worse than aug at almost every metric on warcraft logs.
95 99 and 100%
lilac stag
Hate to break it to you, it’s all percentages.
fallow nimbus
Now there are no excuses anymore, none
paper iron
proven plover
Hate to break it to you, it’s all percentages.
What do you mean
The score System is based on damage
Within the statistics
lilac stag
you can break the percentiles into categories. Hense the 90/95. leaving it as all yields the same results where 2 days ago it did not. ie even the shitty augs are beating sub rogues now.
proven plover
Ahh i See what you mean
strange chasm
subtlety is now the statistical worse spec
It means big buffs
What would you even want buffed?
vale pine
don't think more buffs/nerfs are planed
oak grotto
Would Eye of Kezan be worth it in higher keys? We're talking like 16-17s
vale pine
diffrence would be too small to rly bother
slate marlin
3% aura buff would put sub as still trash
I hope they do some work on spec tree/hero tslents
sullen hare
Best I can do is a 15% buff to black powder
slate marlin
Time to get another collsge for reddit then
fiery pewter
And that ain’t happening this expansion
Mages and Hunters seem to get a rework every patch though
lilac stag
You must be new here
fiery pewter
lilac stag
Over the past week there are a combined 80k hunter and mage mythic parses compared to 17k rogue parses. Guess what’s going to get development resources?
Of those 97k parses, 2k are sub rogues. 
sullen hare
I hear that but also I feel the need to respond with "the beatings will continue until morale improves"
north oyster
Hey, I'm new to everything rogue, just got to 80, and trying to learn sub by reading the APL. Can someone tell me what the definition of "effective_combo_points" are? Is it Supercharged + Combo Points, or does it take in other factors, like Shadow Techniques from Shadowcraft?
limber folio
legion remix waiting room for ye olde DfA sub
tulip badger
Hope it will release with shadowstrike always tping
void hound
i took the 4fun whitepill
havent looked at warcraftlogs at all this tier
well, outside my own logs
fallow nimbus
Doesn't matter if something is planned, something needs to happen
Another zul era without zul
severe prism
not sure how good or bad it'd be but some more cdr on dance or something might be banger, if i'm not mistaken at some point it used to be 1s/cp for dance
but yeah that might be too much work for a late patch balancing 😄
fallow nimbus
Yeah, some aura buff would be ok for now then better cdr with 11.2
hollow cobalt
legion remix waiting room for ye olde DfA sub
Infortunately, I think we will have our current iteration still :/
proven plover
Legion m+ would not be Legion m+ without death from above
(Also without swapblaster + dh shenanigans)
Or that seesaw toy you could use to go through walls
hoary lotus
amber blaze
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vale pine
legion was a good xpac
so timerunning is quite nice for it
probably best timerunning xpac that exists
slate marlin
More artifact weapon appearances ty
heady wing
Hi everyone, have a question about in which order to press burst cds. Is it mandatory to press blades after backstab (which is already empowered by dance and sod), or it’s possible to press flag and after that use blades + trinket without huge dps loss?
Just have seen in Shindigg video where he reviewed some guys run, and said, that this opener is good
chrome palm
Blades after consuming premeditation, immediately before or after sec tech. If you use it right after flag, you waste premeditation from dance
heady wing
Blades after consuming premeditation, immediately before or after sec tech. If y...
Understood, thanks
void ocean
still no tuning, huh
bright sundial
still no tuning, huh
just wait til midnight 
fallow nimbus
just wait til midnight <:OMEGAKEKW:829051106361344021>
slate marlin
hope we get some more .7 patch notes, hopefuly with class changes
haughty rose
had a ~4,3mil on vexie HC which would put me in the top 30 of sub rogues and live logged but it's not showing up. also other guys in the raid said they are logging but nothing
anything i can do?
haughty rose
asked in another discord
got disqualified because of augmented damage
did actually 300k less than 300k more like from my highest dps
tulip gorge
hope we get some more .7 patch notes, hopefuly with class changes
Wouldn’t hold my breath
alpine wraith
dont worry you can get a cool belt
that gives more dps to everyone but us
in 1 month
slate marlin
lets goo cyrces belt that makes no changes to gameplay or anything meaningful and is just yet another form of extremely boring burrowed power, i cant wait to get it
alpine wraith
well we could play a bit around it with the mastery or vers proc
but unlikely we care
upper narwhal
If you really minmax it you might outdamage the support spec 
wide kernel
it seems like a reasonable proposition that as the lowest dps spec, we will hopefully receive tuning now
hazy breach
Not particularly more likely than being the second worst or the fourth worst
Which was the case during the previous tunings
alpine wraith
it would not take much to buff us to relevancy
what happens is the spiral of performance kinda
if sub is worse than assa then it loses a lots of players
bleak wind
I mean its more likely that the top spec gets buffs (which happened)
lilac stag
if sub is worse than assa then it loses a lots of players
Like rogue has a lot of players to begin with. 
alpine wraith
we are dozens!
vale pine
tbh doing your own keys or with friends was always the way
pugging is just rarely a good experience
wide kernel
13.5 is the real key wall for pugging as sub
vale pine
will be diffrent for everyone
it is a small problem of how we approach the game
10s are for many key levels which they feel like the need to optimize their chances as much as possible
for others its 12
or 13
the post above talks about even getting into 10's is impossible
the entire experience is too driven by numbers, a r.io score and meta is how you get invited to keys
so doing keys becomes more about basically fulfilling a specific list of requirements, rather than actually learning and growing as a player and group
slate marlin
The latter is true when on premade
pugs dont know your skill, so they base it on score
vale pine
also i am not saying this is wrong
some people love this experience, love the grind of it
its just not for everyone
premades or guild groups fix some of the problems for sure
but even in guilds, groups often will prefere the stronger specs over the weaker
unless there is a outstanding player in performance and very important gear
slate marlin
Idk i didnt have much problem wirh invites on 12s/13s
once you have 3/4 (insert key level) timed its a lot easier to get into groups
Mind you i did 12/13s when sub was still strong
vale pine
exactly, once you reached a certain score, you checked the boxes and suddenly will have a higher chance to participate
slate marlin
Yep
But for 16s for example
you end all 15s with around 3300
Why would you take a fresh 3300 instead of the juicy 3380?
And you are suddenly forced to do your key, get premades, or spend hours for a chance at dfc/ml
brittle plinth
I didn't understand how scores worked when I started
So I did a bunch of 10s in priory/ML and a few others
vestal escarp
When the
Dance is with shadows
brittle plinth
I'm still 1600 cause I've run a workshop and one or two others
On any key
I didn't figure it out till I started my alt
So I'd do a few 10s but rating never went up lol
fierce wigeon
idk if its my BPP, but im using gloomblade, where tf is find weakness at? its never applying
wide kernel
Are you behind the target?
fierce wigeon
yes
restarted my game and it works prob was UI bugged
thought gloomblade applied FW from other positions and not only behind or was that me being stoned coping
short radish
thought gloomblade applied FW from other positions and not only behind or was th...
coping
it makes it seem like GB doesnt have positional requirement
but it does
thanks blizzard
wispy bolt
is there a better m+ build than the one on wowhead?
weary saffron
check the sim on fuu's sheet for dslice
its different
I do not personally run it
but it is different
has tornado, dark brew, and only 1 point of death perception
lucid jackal
Fake build for sure
wide kernel
Wait what
There's a new build for dslice?
How much more does this tornado build Sim for
rocky ocean
west arch
!fuu
tribal blade
What setup did you go for ?
me as sin, prot warr, mw, marks hunter and enhance
the dmg output was pretty high
we finished bee boss with like 9 mins to go into last boss room
which was WAY faster than i had ever gotten there
it was my first time running full phys comp, it's amazing
haughty mural
Dang that sounds actually pretty nice
tribal blade
yeah i can see why it's called the "phys god comp" right now
haughty mural
MM went sent I’d guess
tribal blade
no idea haha
tribal blade
we also did a 16 top after, and i've never done this much dmg in a theater before
haughty mural
Always have hard feelings regarding boss dmg with such a comp
tribal blade
i think it's not that big a deal because you're stacking so many good buffs that overall everyone is doing more dam
so i'm probably doing what, at least +10% more dmg than any other comp i run with
something like that
tribal blade
marks also does good ST generally
haughty mural
Only played DR since their mini rework
Dunno if sentinel does the same amount of ST
But yea I guess it was enough anyway 
Gonna try it aswell
My team and I got the chars.. just need to lock in
severe prism
do i refresh rupture in SoD window (no dance) ? or i wait till i'm back to being a healer
tribal blade
do i refresh rupture in SoD window (no dance) ? or i wait till i'm back to being...
ideally i try not to since you have dmg amp in symbols, but it's a lot worse to let rupture drop than refresh inside sod
you can play around trying to delay refreshing as long as possible
while symbols is active
(not refreshing when it hits pandemic immediately)
severe prism
Okay, all good then i'm already trying to do that 🙂
severe prism
I'm wondering is it interesting to sectec as a second dance finisher outside of main cds ? not so sure if trickster things around sectec outvalue danse macabre stacks for sectec
haughty mural
its a bit sad that sub is not the prio target king
I feel that
tribal blade
its a bit sad that sub is not the prio target king
i find it very annoying that sin took sub's niche
i still think we should get combo back
with more updates to how sub deals damage
tepid trellis
yeah i can see why it's called the "phys god comp" right now
im about to be physical with my door if sub doesent get some love soon
tribal blade
im about to be physical with my door if sub doesent get some love soon
LOL
yeah it's kinda wild how sub continues to go lower and lower in raid ranking
and this is fine to blizz for some reason
tepid trellis
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vestal escarp
me as sin, prot warr, mw, marks hunter and enhance
Brewmaster rest sham arms war mm rog
This good too
hazy breach
Feral instead of mm 
tribal blade
Brewmaster rest sham arms war mm rog
mmm i like cooking
tribal blade
Feral instead of mm <:ez:587982298104987648>
mmmm sexy
i think it's the bracket i'm in, but every feral i run with doesn't do great dps
hazy breach
In terms of dps increase for sub its warrior >= shaman > monk > druid >= dh > hunter last i checked
tribal blade
oh does warrior shout actually net more dps than skyfury buff
hazy breach
About the same
tribal blade
oh damn
lilac stag
And none of that matters, re: 
hazy breach
Some fight lengths you get an extra dance from the shaman buff and its worth more, some you dont and its worth less etc
But its roughly the same as warrior on average
tribal blade
Some fight lengths you get an extra dance from the shaman buff and its worth mor...
ahhhh ok makes sense
lilac stag
no one works on rogue
vagrant fulcrum
unfair to say that, they did fix quite a few bugs recently
lilac stag
slate marlin
well they also said bugs were fixed and they werent so
lilac stag
unfair to say that, they did fix quite a few bugs recently
You’re absolutely delusional if you think a couple bug fixes equates to any actual development happening.
more than just the cope that goes on in here
tribal blade
unfair to say that, they did fix quite a few bugs recently
i think the argument is we get far less attention than other classes and specs
lilac stag
BrM gets more attention
tribal blade
which i think is fair
lilac stag
Survival with only 60% of the mythic parses of sub gets more attention
hazy breach
They said they fixed fazed but they didnt 
tribal blade
the nimble fazed bug?
hazy breach
Ye
tribal blade
haha classic
lilac stag
mmhm
I’m sure it got fixed on one of the builds.
then overwritten and lost on deployment
hazy breach
the nimble fazed bug?
Or well, it was fixed for outlaw but not sub
tribal blade
Or well, it was fixed for outlaw but not sub
nothing surprises me anymore
this is partially why i just hopped ship to sin
playing sub recently has been like trying to iceskate uphill with a 100 pound backpack
lilac stag
apparently we need more death threats towards blizzard in here to get anything fixed. #theOutlawWay
lilac stag
it’s been awhile.
keen dome
People can't be normal online
lilac stag
something something outlaw. Something something Dev. Something something dev no longer shows up in RH
fill in the blanks
keen dome
I wouldn't show up if someone just gave me needless toxocity or threats, tbh.
tribal blade
JEsus
lilac stag
I wouldn't show up if someone just gave me needless toxocity or threats, tbh.
I wouldn’t either
I loved getting one as a green
Good times
tribal blade
if that was legitimately the reason why they're not around here anymore
keen dome
I've had dozens as a pug raid lead, lmao
lilac stag
I doubt it’s the only reason
tribal blade
talk about the few ruining for the many
keen dome
You get called "Mentally unwell" quite a lot too which is always really funny
lilac stag
but people are unhinged and hide behind text
keen dome
Online Disinhibition Effect, let's gooooo
lilac stag
you can be a fanatical without being deranged and unhinged
tribal blade
i honestly try my best to treat people online the same way i would irl
it's hard and i slip up all the time
but i'm trying
keen dome
Online behaviour can be split into two distinct categories, if we go on the belief that we become dishinhibited online through perceived anonymization. Benign, i.e., passive or positive behaviour. Or toxic, i.e., hostile or dangerous.
lilac stag
like someone iceskating uphill with a 100kg pack?
keen dome
You can see it a lot in WoW, esp in M+, where some people become really nasty little gremlisn because of the perception of anonymity.
lilac stag
my sarcasm gets me in trouble in a place where it’s text based and English is a secondary language for a lot.
keen dome
Yeah, people tend to put emotion into text too often.
tribal blade
You can see it a lot in WoW, esp in M+, where some people become really nasty li...
yeah this is dangerous
lilac stag
I need more sarcastic facial emojis
tribal blade
my current push group makes fun of me because whenever i have to uninvite someone from lfg in our group i msg them explaining why
keen dome
Online Disinhbiiton Effect is form a 2004 paper by Suler (who is very nice, btw) and I recommend it as some fun reading. Later work on it is cool.
tribal blade
and i also never decline people in lfg
keen dome
my current push group makes fun of me because whenever i have to uninvite someon...
That's just politeness, imo. it's good
tribal blade
That's just politeness, imo. it's good
yeah trying to treat people the same way i would want to be treated 🙂
keen dome
Absolutely
fallow nimbus
I never left a m+ key before the group disbanded itself
keen dome
I've done it a few times. But typically only in really dire circumstances or if the key lead is really nasty and I'm not gonna sit around dealing with it.
lilac stag
More wow related, I have to try to figure out where parries are for players in wcl. We got locken to 5%. I swear and it may be antidotal our raid dps was considerably ahead when I was running sub (like 20% at 4 mins) vs 20% around 5 mins as assa.
molten citrus
my current push group makes fun of me because whenever i have to uninvite someon...
i think thats a good thing to do. otherwise they may think something was wrong and thats why they were kicked
like build/spec/gear or just the player themselves
fallow nimbus
The funny thing is when you finish a key and 4 strangers band together and flame the grouplead
tribal blade
i think thats a good thing to do. otherwise they may think something was wrong a...
yeah i've found if you just tell people upfront what's going on 9 times out of 10 they understand and are cool with it
keen dome
The funny thing is when you finish a key and 4 strangers band together and flame...
Or when you have the lead ragequit, then finish the key anyway
tribal blade
instead of just kicking w/o saying anything or disbanding and reforming to circumvent the straight up kick
keen dome
yeah i've found if you just tell people upfront what's going on 9 times out of 1...
100%. The few times it's happened to me and someone has gone "Sorry, a friend is joining us" or "Oh, I invited you by accident"
it's always "Yeah, no wories"
tribal blade
yeah i'm always very grateful whenever someone tells me what's going on
instead of just getting the random boot out of nowhere
keen dome
I have a "Don't whisper me: I will decline you" thing in my pug raids 'cos at Heroic, you can often get 10+ people whispering you non-stop and it sucks. I can see all their achievements / kills via an addon so it's just spam.
I will always explain why if someone does whisper me. But the amount of people who immediately become toxic and hostile is hilarious.
As if being rude and hostile is the trick to get me to rethink the invite
fallow nimbus
I was kicked once in legion and the guy said he hates rogues because he got ganked over and over again by a rogue a few years ago. Days later i camped him at a pvp wq 
he remembered me
tribal blade
oh yeah the spam whispers begging for invites is very annoying
tribal blade
I was kicked once in legion and the guy said he hates rogues because he got gank...
LOL deserved
keen dome
Hahaha
tribal blade
i used to be a terrorist in wpvp during legion
doing stuff like killing people on their mounts
keen dome
oh yeah the spam whispers begging for invites is very annoying
It's the "I'm sorry but I did state do not whisper me. Sorry" and then they reply "You are mentally unwell" that always makes me laugh
tribal blade
or falling out of the sky from a mile up onto them
tribal blade
It's the "I'm sorry but I did state do not whisper me. Sorry" and then they repl...
haha that's a 0-60 moment right there
fallow nimbus
Catlike reflexes was the goat
tribal blade
catlike reflexes should make a comeback
keen dome
Bring it back
fallow nimbus
When flying became a thing but dfa happened i was a menace in the air
tribal blade
yeah you could actually perform your entire rotation midair and kill people
was very cool
quiet smelt
is there a pvp discord for sub or nah ? trying to figure out what builds people are running at the moment
quiet smelt
<#226359213427916800>
ty sir
lilac stag
@molten citrus wake up. Someone needs pvp help!
tribal blade
link pikaboo's stream quick
hazy breach
alpine wraith
happens
hazy breach
Devils lettuce and playing 2s with randoms loses its appeal after a while i guess
Hate to see it
vestal escarp
I dont even know whats the state for rog pvp, what are ppl playing?
tribal blade
i think sub is still very good in pvp
molten citrus
Devils lettuce and playing 2s with randoms loses its appeal after a while i gues...
he quit wow itself because he was able to break into variety streaming and doubled viewership
hazy breach
Makes sense
molten citrus
I dont even know whats the state for rog pvp, what are ppl playing?
rogue is in a horrific state in pvp
molten citrus
sub is the only spec that "works" right now
vestal escarp
Little to no echo
molten citrus
even in shuffle which is insane
vestal escarp
Works as in? Really just dance cheapshots?
molten citrus
season 2 is fucking garbage
molten citrus
Works as in? Really just dance cheapshots?
decent consistent damage with actual burst as well
slate marlin
consistent dmg sub
alpine wraith
yea rogue is very bad rn
slate marlin
what
alpine wraith
assa has some dmg but is paper outlaw has some cc but no dmg
sub works in super setup comps
vestal escarp
consistent dmg sub
Different modifiers
alpine wraith
but still not good after all nerfs every time it does good dmg
some people make it work tho as usual
sub mains are mental
molten citrus
they keep making the mistake of listening to the community when they all cry about rogue
when the answer is literally just get good
alpine wraith
nothing like making 20 secs+ of setup just to not do enough dmg
short radish
they keep making the mistake of listening to the community when they all cry abo...
for the amount of crying you hear about rogues, you'd think we're the most played class
alpine wraith
tbh i havent done real pvp since like sl because of all that shit
short radish
everyones hiding in the shadows
molten citrus
tbh i havent done real pvp since like sl because of all that shit
yeah, its a real shame
2k rated fucks cry on forums
meanwhile at actual competitive levels rogue can be mid as fuck and still get nerfed
alpine wraith
it also does not help you get curb stomped by super elite players at around 2k
like my mmr was only like 2.4 k or something
and still got matching with multi r1 glads etc
pvp has a population problem that cant be solved
molten citrus
it def can be
alpine wraith
now im just an spectator
molten citrus
just requires actual competent work
slate marlin
They seem to invest a lot into more casual stuff
short radish
They seem to invest a lot into more casual stuff
because casuals are where the money is
slate marlin
which is where the majority of the playerbase is
Just wished they did a lot more tuning
molten citrus
last season there was a decent amount of people pvping
slate marlin
not like aura buffs
alpine wraith
yes those things have a tangible reward for them
molten citrus
like close to mythic raiding player numbers
alpine wraith
in metrics
slate marlin
but talent changes
alpine wraith
they can show the cool graps to the investor
EVERYONE LOVES DELVE
look at this graph
short radish
here's a shit take that i somewhat believe in: Season 1 of shadowlands where they forced raiders to pvp for gear was good
i had so much fun then
alpine wraith
it was funny every time pve people have to go pvp or bgs
short radish
queue times were so quick
alpine wraith
you would think they came into their house and murdered their grandma
molten citrus
here's a shit take that i somewhat believe in: Season 1 of shadowlands where the...
the actual pvp combat was a lot better
in SL
way less bloated
molten citrus
RBG is dead
short radish
F
hexed sluice
Counterpoint to that would you want to pve for trinkets again to be competitive via rng in vault
short radish
rogue is one of the top classes for Blitz
is this the RRBG?
short radish
hmmmge
molten citrus
is this the RRBG?
solo q rbg, changed to be faster paced
you can also duo q blitz with a healer
alpine wraith
i did some pvp this time tho for the pvp gear
short radish
solo q rbg, changed to be faster paced
what rogue spec for blitz?
molten citrus
any
molten citrus
it was 1h que
q times are usually fine now
15min usually
doesn't get to 30min until you're like r1 range mmr
slate marlin
one would think working on class fsntasy/smoothness would also be good for casuals
alpine wraith
yea i meant in df this expansion it was fine
i even did some solo shuffle for the pvp neck/wrist ring etc
elite bgs were nightmares tho
molten citrus
it almost feels as if they're starting the end of service squeeze to me rn
sold to microsoft, more pixel store items etc
not putting in the time and effort where it matters
slate marlin
My biggest issue this expansion
is them working so little on hero talent overall
except mages ofc
slate marlin
I csn think of mage, shaman
paladin? idk if they did any meaningful changes to theirs
short radish
yeah
alpine wraith
they have just gone omega lean
short radish
paladins have played both hero trees
alpine wraith
like least investment for the most return
short radish
multiple times
alpine wraith
no surprise
short radish
shocker given they are the most played class next to druid
slate marlin
like least investment for the most return
well ofc, but thats a circle
short radish
acutally i reckon they are the most played class
since half the druids are just herb bots
slate marlin
if you only work on 3 classes
why the fuck would i keep plsying rogue long term
and so i rerrol/quit
snd then you end up with 13 classes and 70% of wow plays 3
slate marlin
acutally i reckon they are the most played class
oh yeah paladin and hunter is turbo played
slate marlin
Evoker for me is a huge ofender
theres a lot more melee thsn range in wow
and when they add a new range since...vanilla?
its evoker
alpine wraith
well ofc, but thats a circle
it is unreal how western devs cant learn from eastern ones
all the gacha games etc have huge investment on their games
and get plenty of return
slate marlin
yep
alpine wraith
imagine if wow had updates every 2 weeks/month
slate marlin
if rogue got a lot more attention a lot more people would play it
short radish
all the gacha games etc have huge investment on their games
NOT ALL GACHA GAMES
alpine wraith
the big ones
short radish
FGO PLAYERS BEG FOR 1% OF REVENUE TO BE PUT BACK INTO THE GAME
alpine wraith
there are plenty bad ones that crash and burn
slate marlin
and then any investment on rogue would have more return
alpine wraith
im surprised fgo is still alive tbh
short radish
game absolutely prints money
alpine wraith
but i guess too many people are too deep
short radish
is the most basic bitch of a game
alpine wraith
it has no pity
short radish
yeah because fate lore is 10/10
alpine wraith
unreal
alpine wraith
ahaha
slate marlin
What do you think it needs to happen to rogue to have more than 200 players
short radish
more assi buffs and less reliance on stealth
alpine wraith
when rogue has been most popular it was because it was quite easy
but now all melee specs have more cool things
short radish
also cooler animations would help
alpine wraith
and even at its peak rogue was like top 5 popular melee
short radish
assi is easiest to get into
alpine wraith
not even class kekw
yea but would you play assa
if you could play ret
as a new player
see what they can do
short radish
because everyone thinks sub requires a masters degree in mathematics to play
and outlaw is only for zoomers
short radish
i suppose as well
swift tinsel
Ret is the craziest in terms of ease-of-play to damage
short radish
the rogue archtype
slate marlin
outlaw requires a bazillion wa to play correctly and no casual is willing to do so
alpine wraith
even warrior is very cool
short radish
is not as popular as warrior/paladin
swift tinsel
You can use a single brain cell and blow shit up
swift tinsel
The game throws holy power and free spenders at you at blinding speed
short radish
The game throws holy power and free spenders at you at blinding speed
i love pressing 7 spenders in a row as ret paladin
swift tinsel
Like imagine getting that many shadowcraft refunds
slate marlin
my only issue with assa is that it no longer has pooling conditions, so no reason for it to be starved in st
short radish
Like imagine getting that many shadowcraft refunds
you can get that as outlaw tbh
well you could
slate marlin
Like imagine getting that many shadowcraft refunds
Ngl imsgine 8 eviscerates in a row
alpine wraith
we have had those times
you can relive it now in cata
and when they remake wod too
short radish
oh yeah forgot about the legendary dagger
alpine wraith
tbh i remember fangs being a bit fun in that
you actually didnt want the proc to happen too soon
swift tinsel
Fangs were def fun
alpine wraith
it was more dmg to be able to dance normally
then use the evis on FW
instead of it proccing early
short radish
i kinda wish i did play cata classic
to play sub in DS
since i only played combat then
alpine wraith
it was not that pretty
slate marlin
I would like more action out of cds for sub
short radish
and was too scared to play sub
alpine wraith
was very annoying to play
short radish
what was the rotation like then
swift tinsel
Cata was when I made my rogue
alpine wraith
keep recuperate snd and rupture
then build and pool for dances
nothing more
you can vanish to get FW if you proc fangs
FW was very big
swift tinsel
After watching Killars vids
slate marlin
FW is so annoying in current wow
slate marlin
i hate positional requirements
swift tinsel
They’re fine until they’re not doable
Bc you’re behind mobs to not get parried anyways
Outside of trickster now obv
But as soon as you can’t be behind them
slate marlin
Parry is so stupid mechanic too
swift tinsel
It’s aids
Agreed, parry is antiquated
Should have gone away when they removed expertise
short radish
i feel this tier was especially bad
for being behind mobs
apparently backstab was also bugged until now as well
so double whammy
swift tinsel
Like we can kinda get around no bs fw with strike but that just highlights how annoying FW is
keen dome
Yeah
swift tinsel
If they’re specifying abilities as un-parryable, just remove it entirely
There’s no point
At least not a justifiable one
short radish
i wonder what the justification is for them to keep it in
surely its been brought up before
swift tinsel
Idk I can’t think of any good reasons besides pvp but at that point make it a pvp only thing
Like they have to know about trickster raid-wide parry existing
slate marlin
It would mean putting work on rogue
swift tinsel
And if they havent fixed it yet they’re basically admitting parry has no reason to be in raid
slate marlin
so why bother
swift tinsel
It already doesn’t in dungeons iirc
swift tinsel
There was a time that it did and that’s fine but it’s def not relevant anymore
Yeah
slate marlin
that should have been trimmed 10 years ago
swift tinsel
Idk if it’s supposed to equate with ranged having to move but there aren’t that many complete turret specs anymore
Most of them are quite mobile now
slate marlin
im only in favour of adding 100% holy dmg resistance to every mob in the game
graceful osprey
Surely 11.2 will have stuff for rogue, surely
short radish
Surely 11.2 will have stuff for rogue, surely
short radish
range has it easier than melee
dont tell any ranged player that
slate marlin
and theres like 1/2 turret dps now
short radish
mages are illegal
short radish
true
slate marlin
i think blizzard at some point will have to give a look at utility balance
slate marlin
I hope they do
haughty mural
Man we had aoe kindey for a seconds
haughty mural
Then they gave us aoe blind
slate marlin
ands its just not fair
haughty mural
I mean look at paladin kit
short radish
yeah but paladins are essentially plate rogues
short radish
they even got that talent we had back in WoD
where you could have 10 CP
but only use 5
slate marlin
Seems like rogue serves as inspirstion for every class
except for rogue itself
well 2 more weeks of subscription remaining anywsy
lets see if any clsss changes happen
short radish
yeah that aint happening
remote shuttle
!sod
wicked joltBOT
Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs
slate marlin
ah you can pause your subs as a way to skip next payment rsther thsn csncel subs
but cant pause your remaining game time
anlaki
haughty rose
yo i was just wondering
was there ever a time in modern wow where sub was considered meta in m+ or raids?
i started wow in the beginning of tww after i stopped during wod so i wouldn't know
slate marlin
that was 6 years ago
sub was good in s1/2 dragonflight in m+, best spec on s3 raid
and last season it was also extremely good in raid
short radish
We are still paying for the sins of zul
short radish
and last season it was also extremely good in raid
Pretty sure assi was still played more though
Outside smolderon it was kinda whatever
hazy breach
yo i was just wondering
was there ever a time in modern wow where sub was consi...
Latter half of s3 in dragonflight in raid
First season in dragonflight sub was literally in the top keys
But for most of recent raids the trend has been like this: Sub is decent during early progress (like rwf) > assa gets heavily buffed and becomes the best spec for most people progressing
Amirdrassil being the exception where both assa and sub was insanely strong and assa was nerfed a lot while sub was only nerfed a little bit
alpine wraith
they just never want to fully do things with sub
we always need all the useless talents at the end
and middle
for no reason
slate marlin
half the spec tree is dead talents
alpine wraith
for no reason other than fuck you
that is why
some things are so easy to change too but nah
slate marlin
yeah raid gameplay is good
alpine wraith
has same problem as lock and arcane had kinda
they played well just numbers not there
then suddenly buff
meanwhile us
slate marlin
in m+ feels off
hazy breach
just needs more sd cdr imo
Less cdr imo
slate marlin
maybe bc of dance cdr tho
alpine wraith
i would not mind less cdr
if we hit harder
the 2 noodle or 1 noodle dance
in between are whatever
between cds
alpine wraith
yea i guess most people's brain go kaput
when they can do 2 in between
then cant
??¿¿
even more if god forbid you play DS
slate marlin
Either 30-60-90 or 45-90
ye i wouldnt mind that either
alpine wraith
3 charges 30 sec cd
slate marlin
make sd a lot stronger then
alpine wraith
would be ideal rn if they cant deal with CDR
i would like the tfd thing to be something else
like every x finishers you get a super dance
or something idk
anything but stealth useless things
also i still feel so weird we have 0 talents to buff only evis
or rupture or snd
like what goes through someone at blizz mind
when we have like 10 builder talents
slim anchor
I have a rotation question. When I’m going through the rotstion in m+. And I’m just chillin waiting for SD to come back off cd but sometimes symbols comes off cd for a few before and I’m just in this energy starvation mode I’ll use symbols with no SD just to get some stuff is that hurting me more than it’s helping? Like it feels like it helps that kinda dead time but obviously without SD it doesn’t reflect on the meters well
slate marlin
Idk i think a lot of the yap about sub is because of how terribly undertuned it is
Spec could be a lot better ofc
brittle plinth
If we just had something meaningful to do outside our CDs, that'd be great. That's all I ask.
alpine wraith
it happens when numbers are not there
slate marlin
but i think cdr/skyfury/ds are the biggest offenders
alpine wraith
same as when everyone has A LOT OF FUN in ptr
hazy breach
I have a rotation question. When I’m going through the rotstion in m+. And I’m j...
Well if it makes it so you have a dance without symbols its bad
alpine wraith
when it is good
hazy breach
Or if you have a flag without double symbols
slate marlin
no one complained week 1
alpine wraith
we even already knew it was going to skydive
slate marlin
when sub had basicaly reached its full power for the entire s2
alpine wraith
after week 3
brittle plinth
The spec is objectively fun, it struggles comparatively
slim anchor
Do I wait for symbols to fall off and then put it back on in that flag window?
hazy breach
You always want your superchargers from symbols to buff secret technique
So make sure sectech is either the first or second finisher after pressing symbols
slate marlin
u can press with ~ 10 seconds remaining on st
which should be in the last 2-3 seconds of your previous sod
hidden spade
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
brittle plinth
That's an interesting point. Sectech is usually one or two finishers away from coming back when first sd/symbols ends.
slate marlin
we even already knew it was going to skydive
blizzard didnt 🙂
Sub feels strong in prog
then skydives
nvm its just recency bias i guess
we have had this version for 1 and a half season
slim anchor
Okay I’ll have to practice that lol. Last question sadly I’ve been reduced to tanking since dragonflight so I only get to play my rogue on occasion. When I first started playing rogue this season I can’t remember where but I had a build with the tea build and no cold snap or whenever it’s called can’t remember. I checked a little bit later and that build was gone and back to the cold build. Is there a difference in those builds with ilvl or stats or something cuz the tea build yea it was alittle worse in numbers but not being starved in off time was kinda neat
alpine wraith
well it has happened more than once
but tbh blizz did not want burst to be like it was on ptre
we were getting to almost 14m
although the lower dps parts were even lower
slate marlin
If you have stuoid highs
then trash lows dont matter
sub burst does not warrant your out cds dmg
slim anchor
Damn haha
alpine wraith
yea i liked tier before the triple nerf
but blizz does not want what it does not want
and for people that said big % tier was dumb
we have had 40%+ more
on trinks and several things many times
maybe they just wanted to stomp on it before they had to think what to do with next tier
but imagine on vexie with old tier numbers
NUT
slate marlin
I would rsther have sub be strong by itself rather than bc of op tier
But the compensation buffs were not it
plush roost
Buffs? We don't say that trigger word here
strong sorrel
Buffs? We don't say that trigger word here
ye cause devs watch Italian brain rot instead of actually doing smth
bombordilo crocodilo
slate marlin
devs just want people to play assa bc its the finished rogue spec while they improve mages/druids
the only excuse they can have to not buff subt this week would be working on the spec
vestal escarp
Frigocamelœ buffo fardelœ
pale python
Subtelino Nerfino
fallow nimbus
Born to sub made to sin
sullen hare
Blackaloni powderolo +15%
slate marlin
lessdmgino thanaugmentarino
lucid jackal
devs just want people to play assa bc its the finished rogue spec while they imp...
What's unfinished about sub rn?
slate marlin
half the spec talent tree is dead talents
has 1 playable hero talent
Gameplay is great in raid
in m+ the cdr issue i notice it more
alpine wraith
true
i think they forgot to nerf energy more
and cdr
and buff dmg
i mean i would not mind energy being more of a thing but you cant really do that nowadays with dance being like it us
alpine wraith
tbh if goremaw buffed next 2 finishers by 35%
that would be enough
i dont ask it to have the 900% ap it used to have
but that would also be nice
you know hitting triple what it does now
limpid sage
do you guys do bombs 2nd on bandit myth
waxen tree
Just starting playing Sub today and I'm trying to macro my second SecTech with Cold Blood, but whenever I press it it casts SecTech but not coldblood? It's macro'ed like this:
#showtooltip Secret Technique
/cast Cold Blood
/cast Secret Technique
On the second or third cast it casts both. Not sure what I'm doing wrong here.
limpid sage
or is that just the parse strat
warm depot
wdym 2nd sectechj
waxen tree
I thought our first secret technique should be cast natty so I have a macro for when to cast the second one inside Shadowdance
warm depot
o right
waxen tree
Macro doesn't cast Cold Blood though
warm depot
thats weird it looks right
velvet laurel
Just starting playing Sub today and I'm trying to macro my second SecTech with C...
need to do a cast sequence macro for that to work
warm depot
!macros
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.there u go i guess
hollow spear
!cb
wicked joltBOT
- Why is the Cold Blood and Secret Technique macro not recommended anymore?
When you macro these two together you often end up using it outside of your shadow blades window rather than inside of it, and since Subtlety gets so many damage modifiers inside its cooldowns its actually more damage use it only in Shadow Blades
(yes, even if you end up losing casts of cold blood). Ideally you use it on your second Secret Technique as it will be buffed by more stacks of Flawless Form and have higher Flagellation stacks.
velvet laurel
well you can have a sequence macro on a second keybind
waxen tree
Thing is it works sometimes? just that usually it casts Secret Technique but not Cold BLood even though both are off CD
warm depot
yeah but if you press it during the gcd i guess then it can only do the cb and not sectech
waxen tree
Yes, that I can understand.
But it's the other way around xd
warm depot
yeah that part makes no sense to me lol
lucid jackal
Do u have the macro on your stealth bar?
warm depot
ROFL
hollow spear
Oh, the classic
haughty mural
Where is the pic for it ?
Was there a command ?
It’s the absolute classic
!stealthbar
Damnit
patent crystal
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
devout wing
How hard is sub to get used to for m+ only? Is it worth a try funwise?
left ledge
at least in theory goremaw's is supposed to buff finishers
Goremaw was a mistake and should have never been supported during the remake
We had the opportunity back then to say fuck goremaw but we didn’t 
keen dome
How hard is sub to get used to for m+ only? Is it worth a try funwise?
Absolutely, imo
devout wing
Absolutely, imo
Do i need a bigbrain to get used to it?
left ledge
No
keen dome
Nah
left ledge
Just need to get used to when you can do damage
The hardest part of sub in m+ is getting the first dance to actually work
If first dance worked as it says in the tooltip omg
This spec would feel like heaven in m+
devout wing
Done. Going to gear that sucker.
urban field
!guide
urban field
Is there a subrogue for idiots guide or post or is the WoWhead the best place to start? i want to learn Sub but holy shit seems so overwhelming
rough jewel
wowhead+dummy on dornogol is best to start imo
severe prism
Wowhead + dummy is indeed a great start, don't stress too much about opener/main cd to begin, just build and spend to feel/understand the cdr of dance and secret technique I'd say
urban field
Wowhead + dummy is indeed a great start, don't stress too much about opener/main...
Thank you
north schooner
or midnight
i dunno some people are morning gamers instead 
alpine wraith
you can find my guides too on the sheet in my profile or yt
but mostly you can check any of these
!guide
celest lynx
Hey, I have a question for y rogue friends. I have no experience with the class but my wife (who's fairly new to WoW) has picked up Subtlety and we're questing together and doing delves together with me as a healer and I've been having some real problems where if I do the smallest hint of healing, I pull all the threat right away and things go sideways. Is this just a normal rogue thing? Generating like no threat? It's made some things difficult and I'm just wondering if I just need to give up on healer and tank instead.
vale pine
haha, such a classic
vale pine
Hey, I have a question for y rogue friends. I have no experience with the class ...
shadow dance reduces your thread by a lot, so its easy for other tanks/healers to get aggro when you use it
additionally vanish does set your aggro to 0
so ye^^ subtlety isn't the best dps + healer comp for delves
lilac stag
haha, such a classic
I need a sticker or a command at some point
I finally did get smart and put it in its own folder on the phone for easy access