subtlety

[vale pine]

if we ignore this

we are still the statistically worse spec in terms of output and the only spec that did not get buffed

this is wild because it means that the gap between us and the remaining lower performers will just grow

there is, at least objectively seen, numerical no reason to keep subtlety this low

so it seems other factors are in play

maybe the dev team wants it low to funnel all players to assassiantion

maybe nobody of the dev team cares, and argues for buffs of subtlety

[tribal blade]

i do see the point that sub has use in raid and is quite good at it's niche of blowing up adds in cds

but it's very strange to be one of the lowest performing specs and be the only one ignored

[vale pine]

thats true, but hunters and other classes can do so too

[tribal blade]

yes they can

[keen dome]

But they can't do it in purple (please ignore shadow priest)

[vale pine]

like to me it seems intentionally

because everyone can look at the statistic

[tribal blade]

it has to be intentional

[vale pine]

and see them buffing everything but one spec

[tribal blade]

there's no other explanation

i just wonder what the reason is

[keen dome]

If you look at the median damage on heroic, you can see some of the classes they buffed had lower low ends than Sub

[tribal blade]

imagine if we got communication on it smile

[vale pine]

i mean we had the discussion some days ago

[keen dome]

Communication would go very far

[vale pine]

you look at DF

and there was a lot of effort put into making sure it does not fall behind

with reworks in s1

[keen dome]

Yeah

[vale pine]

a compelte rework with many new op talents in s3

buffs every time it was behind

even tho often later in the tier, where it did not matter much

[jolly pasture]

im fully convinced this is true

[vale pine]

this is a very diffrent thing

to how subtlety seems to be handled

subtlety was good in s1 because outlaw and sin got overnerfed

s2 rogue was shit

so idk if there is much to talk about

s3 the very same thing as s1 happened

just slightly delayed, so assassiantion was stronger for 2-4 weeks instead of only 1-2

this is also why subtlety came out ahead in dragonflight in general

[tribal blade]

in S2 sub was actually quite a strong spec

just didn't fit into the meta in M+

[leaden prairie]

every tier has been a sub tier for prog tho

[vale pine]

it had the longest time it was good because tuning was so slow after the initial phase

[leaden prairie]

I understand it mostly fall off after but

[vale pine]

^ thats what i say

i mean this tier is probably only one fight of sub

and oen fight of assassination

the remiaining fights are "play whatever"

the sub fight is early on, so has a lower impact

the assassiantion one is the end bos kind off, given the tuning of gally

outlaw also performed extremely well especially before the sin buffs

now they are closer, making the diffrence dissapear

[haughty rose]

yoo
you guys think i find a mythic pug raid that is dumb enough to pick me up with only multi 8/8 hc exp and good logs or am i forced to switch to assa if i want to pug mythic?

[keen dome]

Well if you want to pug Mythic it's realistically only the first two bosses

[tribal blade]

i don't think a pug mythic raid will care what spec you are, they'll care mostly how good a player you are

[keen dome]

And at that point they'll take whatever is highest iLevel

Either good parses on your spec or high iLevel tends to be the reason to invite. or, because it's a pug: whatever random logic the RL has decided on that day

[tribal blade]

yeah ilvl and good parses or high keys done are the combo they will look at

[haughty rose]

i'm fine with that since vault unlocks there

[keen dome]

Sometimes

[tribal blade]

the main thing you're looking for whenever you pug is people who have a brain

[tribal blade]

sometimes yeah lol

[keen dome]

Yeah. Try to join a group that has a message or description, or has a raid lead who has killed the bosses multiple times. A good pug lead makes or breaks high difficulty content.

Also, make sure it's a group doing Cauldron first if you want two kills. Don't do Vexie first.

[tribal blade]

oh can you do that?

i had no idea

[haughty rose]

im only 667(.9) with those logs. not sure if good enough. i just wanna avoid wasting my time spam applying for pugs for hours if ilv and/or logs are too low

[keen dome]

Any good group aiming for 2 kills will run past Vexie and do Cauldron, then circle back to do Vexie. Cauldron is harder to pug but if you can kill it, you can kill Vexie easily

[tribal blade]

your logs look fine, the issue will be you're below 670

[keen dome]

Just give it a go, imo. I'd invite you with those if you wrote a good message when applying.

[haughty rose]

yeah i don't find join in pugging +10 and otherwise i can't really get a higher ilv

guess i gotta bite the bullet and do some +10 keys

[tribal blade]

oh yeah no flame whatsoever

[keen dome]

Although you might wanna do a Vexie kill this week

And then tyr for Cauldron next week

[tribal blade]

yeah i would highly recommend filling out your vault in 10s every week

[keen dome]

(or next reset I should say)

[tribal blade]

makes a massive difference in gearing when you have 3 guaranteed myth track items to choose from every week

[keen dome]

Ye

I'm 672 just from M+ and no real Mythic raiding

[tribal blade]

if you don't want to do that many keys 4 10s for 2 items is good

[keen dome]

Most 10's are relatively chill at this point. Getting invited can take time, esp if you don't already have 10's timed. It's something you have to work your way up to if you are pugging.

[haughty rose]

yeah. right now i'm covered in bis hero and a couple 675 crafts (except for HoC). I only found out recently that i can get a spark with vault lol. if i only knew sooner i'd have 1 or 2 more 675 crafts next reset but i took some outlaw bis gear in case i ever wanna try it. spoiler: i won't try outlaw

[tribal blade]

yeah ngl it's gonna be miserable working your way up to 10s 😦

[keen dome]

Pro pugging tip: put something in your note to make you stand out. A joke, or something interesting.

It really makes a difference when 99% of people appying to content have nothing, and then someone does.

[haughty rose]

for HC i always say "Kurva. Or was it curve? idk"

[keen dome]

haha

[proper latch]

I put "hereditary sub rogue, not a shitty fotm reroller"

[tribal blade]

my favorite is when the RL asks you to link aotc, so you link CE

and they say "that's not aotc"

[keen dome]

lmao

[tribal blade]

🙂

[keen dome]

I hate it when people ask you to link stuff.

It demonstrates the RL doesn't know wtf they're doing and can't check themselves

[tribal blade]

they're technically not wrong, that's NOT aotc

who am i to argue

[keen dome]

Personally I think raid leads who ask you to whisper them are a huge red flag

[haughty rose]

"haven't had a shower in weeks, dumped my gf ages ago and i only eat mc D. If that ain't prove enough that i'm a gamer nothing is"

[tribal blade]

the worst for me is whenever i list my own key

[proper latch]

https://youtu.be/0ZEuWJ4muYc

[tribal blade]

and you get whispers from entitled people

thinking you owe them a spot

[keen dome]

When I was trying to pug lead Ansurek, I had a very funny interaction. I have a "Do not whisper me: I will decline you" in my raid desc 'cos otherwise you get spammed non-stop

And I had a guy link CE Ansurek to me in a whisper. I decline them and say "Please read the description" and he goes "get off your high horse" lol

[tribal blade]

i don't mind if people whisper me relevant information

or put it in their note

[keen dome]

The note exists for a reason and anybody competent will have an addon to check what people have done

It's like how 99% of people saying "checking logs" are never checking logs

Also if you join a "have curve" group, check the raid leader to see if they have curve. You might be surprised

[tribal blade]

haha i usually check logs

[haughty rose]

in HC i'm not sure if anyone checks notes. i always get invited almost instantly bc they see i'm 8/8 and have a purple log i assume. i could say i have explosive diarrhea and that i could be afk anytime and i'd probably still get an inv. especially after seeing what kind of grey and green guys apply

[keen dome]

Most heroic groups are just grabbing anybody, yeah

It's why a lot of heroic pugging is a complete nightmare

[haughty rose]

i only apply for groups that at least ask for curve and better yet "checking logs". cba anymore to wipe 4 times on sprocket

[tribal blade]

yeah if you already have aotc you're more qualified than like 90% of people queueing

[keen dome]

Nah, AotC dosn't mean shit

boss kills is what people look at

AotC and 1 Gallywix kill is possibly a good player. Or a boost

At this point in the season anyway

It's why curve groups tend to be a gamble

[haughty rose]

i mean, i was forced to become a RL this reset bc the actual RL didn't know shit and outsourced the lead to me. i usually don't RL but damn, waiting minutes and minutes for a gamer DPS on mug really was something

[keen dome]

Yep, haha

I lead heroic pugs every week and the stuff you see

Bandit is hands down the hardest pug fight this tier on heroic, followed by Lockensprocket. it's extremely funny

[haughty rose]

btw, any addons that help leading? or just raw dog in there?

it was kinda fun to do tbf

[keen dome]

It's a lot of fun imo. And outside the raider.io addon, I don't run anything specific.

[haughty rose]

especially kicking the toxic lock with 1.5m dps that was flaming the healers for dying lol

[keen dome]

Being proactive on handling toxic players (good or bad DPS), being proactive on replacing people who fail repeatedly (repeatedly is important. Everyone makes mistakes). Making sure to explain in concise, clear ways with use of raid markers and a 'standard' tactic to get around language barriers.

[limpid sage]

funny thing is that bandit has somehow gotten harder I feel

[keen dome]

Yeah

[limpid sage]

because so many people have different orders

[keen dome]

Yeah

My tactic is I just RW the order I've found to work and tell people to follow that.

[haughty rose]

yeah i think i did quite well. also got a whisper from a rando appreciating the work an communication. the only annoying part is finding the correct RW which explain groups on mug for example

[keen dome]

flame coin, coin shock, flame bomb, something, something

[limpid sage]

my first kill was with bomb 2nd in a pug

I have no idea how it worked

[keen dome]

Yep, most pugs do bomb coin 2nd

Because that's what the WA they are told to use says

[haughty rose]

i used a WA with raid warning for bandit. even the most braindead guy should get the order then

[keen dome]

You'd be surprised haha

I typically one or two shot Mug'zee but Bandit takes like 5+ pulls every single time

[haughty rose]

i always am. worked out when i was RL tho. "best" part was that the original 645 warrior RL failed multiple times on mug and even was responsible for a 30 sec stun on someone bc he last second leaped to a bomb. can't kick him obv

then he whispered me "what am i supposed to do with ice spikes" lol

[keen dome]

Yeah, a raid lead repeatedly messing up mechanics is always a frustrating thing

Lotta people will form groups to get carried (which, fair. it's some effort)

I joined a gallywix pug this week where the raid lead was giving out the tactics for Bandit on it.

Make sure to roll the coins at Gallywix guys

[void ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/me-atrapaste-es-cine-its-cinema-cinema-esto-es-cine-gif-17729711691959966457

so did u roll

[keen dome]

People always get so fixated on damage when you wipe, too. Even when it's a major mechanic failure and nothing to do with DPS. It's so funny

[keen dome]

rolled right outta that raid (with most people when the RL argued he was right lmao)

[void ocean]

oh the attitude too

my fav

[keen dome]

Die to someone popping two mines at once on Lockensprocket 'cos it's the first time they did it. Boss as 82% HP. "DPS IS SO BAD. REPLACE FAILERS"

[haughty rose]

that reminds me of a different lock on sprock this week

i was assigning soakers and said "pal 1 first, pal 2 second, me third, rogue 2 fourth" and the lock was "i'm gone if you assign me to do a mechanic. i'm only here for logs so i don't care about any soaking whatsoever" and just instantly left xDDD

why is it always the locks and warriors man haha

[keen dome]

lmao

I had a DH who joined with the message "know all mechanics"

so I assign him netherwalk solo soak on mines and he goes

"i don't know that mechanic"

so I kicked him

[haughty rose]

deserved lmao

[short radish]

honestly

thats kinda based

[hardy snow]

For this one, I think it is related to Sub's mastery design.
Sub has one of most cheapest mastery in all specs, maybe, which makes it very attractive during "prog" phase as it grows very quickly.
In addition, optimised talent selection would suggest no need of crit or haste and caused the quick grow an intended and correct direction, matching the need of prog.
However, Sub has the same diminish check point of 21000 i believe makes it less and less effective if only mastery is focused, while the other option is vers which is the most expensive.
In other words, Sub's finishers have lower baseline numbers but compensated by cheap mastery. This grows quickly but also quickly reaches a bottleneck for further growth.
At the same time, S1's transmitter gives agi which lasted much longer since agi's marginal diminish comes gradually and has no amount defined further diminish, while S2 trinket is more mastery.
But increasing finisher's baseline and decrease mastery effectiveness before diminish level does not actually help much because it only gets you grow slower not much further. This could however make Tea's raw mastery more attractive if numbers remain.
And all of this not even mentioning Flag's mastery stacking, which, well, makes it self diminish due to marginal effects.
Even if tea becomes preferred, crit only becomes valuable due to random crit damage without additional effects like resources or 4x crit damage, and let's be honest we only need good crit during our burst and we couldn't care less if something crit out of windows.
And haste is still a baby died before its birth, unless it becomes related to WM or FW like adding double haste to WM or accumulating stacks of FW based on your melee attacks/crit attacks.
Thus, it will always be a prog spec and fall behind after, especially if we dont have a good trinket

[leaden prairie]

?

is this a pasta

or do i need to read it all

[hardy snow]

My apology. I got sentimental maybe.

[short radish]

what the fuck lmao

[haughty rose]

i mean if i run HC for the 3rd time this week i'm also only in for the logs, i just don't tell everyone that i only care about the numbers and that i have ID already but i didn't even assign him for a mechanic and he just left anyway lmao

[short radish]

yeah dudes also kinda stupid

popping a mine

is 2 globals

unless he's trying to parse 100

and if so he's in the wrong group for that

[haughty rose]

i mean i parsed 90 on sprock and 45 on stix with pugs sooo

for vexie you need turbo blasters otherwise a ranom pug group can work

[keen dome]

Yeah

Parsing Vexie in pugs is such a comedy show

I did a 96 the first? second? week of the raid and i have yet to have as good a group lmao

[short radish]

yeah im doomed to never get a good vexie parse again

every time i kill it's always sometime 2:30-2:50

[keen dome]

We should fill a raid with 26 sub rogues

[haughty rose]

if you assign me to do soaks on sprocket i quit

[keen dome]

[void ocean]

what about never getting good rik parse

damn evasion fix

[haughty rose]

my best is 3,3m and that was a semi guild run. usually i barely hit 3m. boss is dead shortly before or after the 3rd blades come of CD

[void ocean]

now when i got my hc hoc

[short radish]

just play human

[void ocean]

i am human

[short radish]

unluggy

[void ocean]

dmg aint gonna kill me?

[vestal escarp]

never

[void ocean]

i used on my dk IB+DA

would survive it easily

but thats IB

[short radish]

not on heroic

[void ocean]

oh

i meant mythic

[short radish]

just feint

[leaden prairie]

outlaw has worse stat scaling tho

and its the opposite it usually get better on farm

But I guess thats just cause people value padding on farm but not prog

So they just don't play outlaw on prog or idk

[hardy snow]

Outlaw used to have worse situation, but now... I'm not going to say it is growing better, but certainly you have more places to distribute things

instead of getting diminished by a forced diminishing level, Outlaw actually needs a good amount of stats into crit and haste. Well, they made them up but we cannot say they are not valuable. And then going into vers or a bit of mastery wont hurt situation where outlaw starts growing slow.

[leaden prairie]

That's simply not true

We might be the lowest stat scaling spec in the game

[hardy snow]

after like 25% crit and 20%haste?

[leaden prairie]

Outlaw vers is the same value as any spec in the game

[leaden prairie]

After 0% Crit my guy wdym

Every stat we have is worse than agi

And worse than vers

And vers is the same value for every spec in the game

The math isn't very hard to do

[hardy snow]

okay, wasn't really familar with current Outlaw's stat priority. 0 crit and 20% haste and vers first and then crit?

we need some base crit for outlaw, no?

[leaden prairie]

you just need 20% haste

after taht every stat is worse than vers

till vers is bad enough

[lilac stag]

Fwiw blood mallet shows the optimal distribution as 20c 30h 10m 40v in ST

[leaden prairie]

I have never had Crit sim higher than vers for me and I'm 675

Not sure how much more vers I need till that happen

[lilac stag]

Idk I can’t be arsed with breakpoints. Top gear and go.

Sub fwiw is listed as 20c 10h 40m 30v

I’m at a point in my sub gear where haste is slowly getting better. Still worst value

[vestal escarp]

20 celsius 10 hours 40 minute at 30 volts?

what bro cooking??????

[void ocean]

no, its ccccccccccccccccccccccccccc hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

[vestal escarp]

go on

[lilac stag]

It would be an upper case C if it was a temp

[vestal escarp]

same for voltage but who am i to criticize

[lilac stag]

I’m just enjoying that subs mastery is to blame

[void ocean]

im sure there r measures in usa that would fit those letters 😄

[lilac stag]

When do we get the vers specs scale badly?

[hardy snow]

20 capacitance charging for 10h and 10mins at 40 volts?lol

[lilac stag]

20 capabara 10 hamsters 40 marmot 30 voles

[keen dome]

not enough capybara's

[lilac stag]

Blame blizzard. Their rodent scaling is holding the spec back.

[fallow nimbus]

I have 20.1c is that too much?

[lilac stag]

Why do you have .1 of a capabara. What kind of monster are you?

[keen dome]

a small geniua pig

[lilac stag]

That’s not part of the stats. There’s no g

so clearly you’re wasting something.

[haughty rose]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[haughty rose]

do i have to set up something else for shadowcraft refund trigger? it's not working for me

[leaden prairie]

Check the sound channel in conditions

Maybe the sound is one you don't have or the sound channel is muted for you

[lilac stag]

Did you read the install notes?

ie do you have the sound pack

[leaden prairie]

I think by default I had a random sound selected

I don't remember

[edgy star]

Do I need house of cards to be able to play sub at a decent level in m+?

[lilac stag]

or pvp badge

[edgy star]

ah, I'm probably not going to get elite any time soon

[lilac stag]

even with those you’re getting gapped by assa in majority of keys

Elite?

It’s 700 conquest

[edgy star]

Don't you need to upgrade the trinket to be useful?

[lilac stag]

Farm warchests

PvP items are upgraded for pve with pve currency.

[edgy star]

Ah, I'm probably out of date, i thought you could only get max 8/8 champion if you didn't have the rating

[lilac stag]

658 is the max ilvl

It still beats everything but HoC

90 sec burst specs only cares about 90 second cds for trinkets. It’s a 1 min and works as an easy to get alternative.

[leaden prairie]

Just open vault with hoc inside thoughts?

[worn ivy]

Take it

[ripe moon]

13th may and we all have it

[leaden prairie]

I have it for months now

Skill issue maybe

[haughty mural]

The question is: will they back down from boss requirement?

[leaden prairie]

Hope not

[haughty mural]

Or will most people still get it only in heroic

[azure thicket]

just clear 12s and run mythic bis ngl

[lilac stag]

Boss requirements better stay

[leaden prairie]

This seems like bad luck protection this time

[lilac stag]

It’s BLP not free loot

[leaden prairie]

So boss requirement make sense

[haughty mural]

We will see i guess - maybe forum outrage will be huge again

[lilac stag]

The forums can use their one button rotation to get CE

[haughty mural]

Forum also made pet stay in MM tree kek

[lilac stag]

It’s fine

[azure thicket]

they might buff sub in 11.7 no worri

apparently outlaw was down bad before season 3 df or something

[ripe moon]

I will be more than happy to have HoC on hero track

[haughty mural]

[tribal blade]

that's the thing, i think it makes perfect sense

or else it just becomes this thing where killing mythic end bosses is meaningless

or, less meaningful

[slate marlin]

agreed

it wqs like that last 2 times because of raid rotating+meme season

shouldnt be a get free mythic gallywix item with lfr kill on a serious season

[tribal blade]

i was hearing the argument "but it screws over M+ers"

but i don't think M+ers should just get insta big mythic items for free

[leaden prairie]

M+ should have a different type of gearing imo

Push m+ I mean

Either no gear at all

Or smth like pvp

Idk

[tribal blade]

i've thought they should make M+ gear like pvp gear

where it scales in dungeons

[leaden prairie]

It's weird to have to wait till the end of the season for full gear to actually start pushing keys

[tribal blade]

yeah same brain

[lilac stag]

M+ wouldn’t care if they spent 2 minutes balancing trinkets

Instead of forcing people to raid for a trinket

artificially inflating raid engagement by forcing it

[tribal blade]

i think the game would be better off if they separated raid and M+ gear

then there wouldn't be this expectation to do double the amount of content to do 1 thing in the game

[lilac stag]

look how popular lfr is… as 670 ilvl toons run it to get rep for raid

[leaden prairie]

I think doing a few m+ early in the season to get some gear for raid is ok

[tribal blade]

yeah i agree that's fine

[leaden prairie]

Cause otherwise you legit go into raid with no gear it would be weirdn

Or splits would be way more important

I like m+ gearing for raid early on it make sense to me

[tribal blade]

one of the more common complaints i get is from the raiders in my guild complaining about doing keys

[leaden prairie]

I just don't like the opposite because it kinda means you need to wait till you are full gear to start pushing

[tribal blade]

and then people i do keys with complaining about doing raid

[leaden prairie]

And if you aren't in a mythic guild you are fucked anyway

[tribal blade]

yeah true

a lot of M+ers just raid for bis gear

so they can push the highest possible keys

[lilac stag]

and let’s be real, mythic hoc vs heroic isn’t going to make or break anyone

[tribal blade]

yeah 1 singular item isn't a big make or break

but spread out over several slots it adds up

plus when you're barely timing stuff by seconds every little bit counts

[azure thicket]

idk as a scrub this season could be a little nicer to healers

[tribal blade]

this season isn't the worst for healing afaik

not compared to previous seasons

there are a lot less turbo nuclear difficulty M+ bosses

although there are some pretty crazy ones this season

[slate marlin]

candle king

[tribal blade]

yeah that one in particular

[azure thicket]

honestly i die more from ez mine bismuth or someone else doing it wrong

[tribal blade]

but thinking back to the past few seasons it's not so bad right now

[azure thicket]

it's mostly just bad movement tech on ranged or soemthing idk shitpost over

[slate marlin]

ye its nothing like cot

[tribal blade]

WAY less 1 shots

[lilac stag]

What other item do you need from this season for m+?

[slate marlin]

ilvl basicaly

[tribal blade]

mythic hoc and jastors

[lilac stag]

or better yet when was the last time it was multiple.

[tribal blade]

those are the 2 big ones

[lilac stag]

You can craft a ring and it’s fine

[slate marlin]

myth vs hc jastors difference in ilvl will matter to like 20 people itw

[lilac stag]

heroic jastors is a wash. Mythic was 1% idk

[tribal blade]

myth track jastors is big for sin

i haven't simmed for M+ though

[lilac stag]

my point it none of them are going from no hoc option to having heroic hoc as an option

There’s plenty of rings and crafting. You can craft 1 of the 5 tier slots. You can craft all the off pieces eventually. You can craft a weapon. M+ gearing isn’t necessarily in need of running mythic raiding. The struggle is early gearing and getting in heroic if you’re guildless.

and meta isn’t even established that early

I’ve still got 4 mythic raiders without heroic HoC

[haughty mural]

I wouldn’t mind having plebs get to myth bis loot with catchup dinars at the end of the season
But you are right, myth or heroic hoc won’t make or break their keys or what not

So in the end it doesn’t really matter

[alpine wraith]

think the idea for dinars would be liek 1month in

[lilac stag]

It’s literally people wanting handouts

[alpine wraith]

and you get them from killing bosses

and you need the kill

[lilac stag]

And trying to win discord sims

[alpine wraith]

then later then can just take that one out

that way you dont have week 16 people doing normal gally for jastor

[tribal blade]

wait is that a thing

trying to win discord sims

[lilac stag]

gotta slap that big dick around

[tribal blade]

hahahhaa

that's precious

[lilac stag]

Literally nothing gear gated wise prevented me from getting 3k and the mount.The people that are shouting the loudest are the 655 ilvl randoms who can’t get over 2k io if I had to guess

[slate marlin]

yeah i agree

a dinar for hc hoc is a bit meh at this point

its been 9? vaults

and a lot of chances ti get it

for myth is obv still relevant

[lilac stag]

it’s not meh if it’s a significant upgrade

and you obv haven’t gotten it so it’s BlP doing what BlP is supposed to do

[slate marlin]

yes its a sigbificant impact specialy for sub

i have hc hoc

[lilac stag]

so you don’t need the BLP

[slate marlin]

and i wont kill myth oab so

[lilac stag]

Good

[slate marlin]

Ye im not complaining about the blp system

i think its good

[alpine wraith]

i mean getting dinar when gally was dead 1 month ago

is idk

[slate marlin]

just maybe should be in a bit earlier

[alpine wraith]

but for most people it is fine

a lot of people will be happy to get some mythic items from first bosses too

like if you just killed bandit

getting mythic cards or best in slots etc for amny

is big

[lilac stag]

I mean they had 3 raid nerfs. This is the time when most guilds start extending. Could it have been a week or two earlier? Likely.

[azure thicket]

they could charge 2x the dinars for gear from bosses that aren't killed and ppl wouldn't flood the forums

[lilac stag]

we’re also in a raid where 7 of 8 is the CE block

No one needs free loot

people are just going to complain about everything.

You could have 8 tokens and still get the same fucked up complaining and entitlement to loot

[vestal escarp]

bruh i still never got jastor

waiting the dinar like the second coming of jesus

[lilac stag]

clearly can’t play the game without it.

I’m just waiting for uncapped crests so I can clear out the 2000 some odd non gilded crests sitting my currency tab

[vestal escarp]

i pay the whole subscription i want all the loot

[lilac stag]

I want sub to not suck.

Can’t always get what we want.

[vestal escarp]

you want to play the game they dont want to make

[lilac stag]

yup

Likely letting sub die, just like the spec after this tier

[brittle plinth]

I know the difference between sub being good and bad is how big my number is on the meter, won't change my place at the bottom 🙂

Still having a blast with it

[haughty mural]

Nice to hear

[plush roost]

Yo dont worry, once they see the single button rotation on sub rogue they'll realize how dire the state of this spec is

[haughty mural]

Maybe they should gate myth m+ loot also behind +14 requirement

So raiders can’t just faceroll weekly 10s and get best loot there
Would that stop all them people from complaining about needing to raid to push ?

[haughty mural]

[plush roost]

No because a significant portion of the m+ playerbase would complain they have to do difficult keys

[lilac stag]

You’d also kill m+ only players.

Look at last season difficulty vs this and overall engagement

If I never had to do a key I’d be a happy raider. lol

I rather run delves

Fucking playing an mmo with other people

[haughty mural]

Forgot my greyface behind it

Scusi

• 

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/mamamoo-moonbyul-byul-moon-star-gif-26562962

[void ocean]

whats wrong with facerolling 10s 😄

gotta say goodbye now to mythic signet 😄

unless i get it from the vault, god forbid

[short radish]

yeah healing this season is kinda chill

theres 2 scaryish bosses + bubbles

and thats about it

[tribal blade]

you can scratch out bubbles, not a single group plays it 😉

everyone skips it

but it's the hardest skip of the season

you need your tank to pull it to the back wall, then once it casts the bubble thing that spawns under your feet you have to book it past down the hallway

then he has to very quickly leap and meld

[short radish]

sounds cursed

[tribal blade]

what makes it so hard is it's VERY common for at least 1 person to fuck it up

and be in combat

and if that happens he casts the dot on everyone from range

and you're all dead

i have seen that skip fucked up more times than successfully done

[lilac stag]

Just play with bubbles. He’d friendly

[tribal blade]

he might be the single most difficult mob of the entire season

i really wish they would just gut him

because failing a billion floodgates just to that failed skip

is killing me

actually the trademark for this season is skips

actually

every single key has a bunch of skips

some very complicated

[twilit phoenix]

MDI brainrot does that to a mf

I hate skips with pugs

[tribal blade]

it's just more so that there's mobs that are so turbo bad to play that it's worth doing the skips

[lilac stag]

Just stack and kill it.

[tribal blade]

like double hobgoblin is bad to play

the entire 1st area of ML is bad to play

[lilac stag]

idk skip brain rot is real

[tribal blade]

double masterminds in ML are bad

bubbles is bad

trash before last boss of workshop is bad

every single tank right now has to be nelf to skip lol

they really need to do more shuffling around of % and difficulty of mobs that are being skipped

i too am getting very tired of this skip everything meta

[short radish]

i love skips except that they dont involve rogues anymore

thanks blizzard

shrouds a really useful spell

[alpine wraith]

at least ours gives speed brrrr

[vestal escarp]

no?

[short radish]

yeah

i preuse shroud

screw mounting

[alpine wraith]

secret tech for speed

[short radish]

shroud gives 240% MS

[alpine wraith]

yea thx to fade to nothing you move faster than mount

and nightrunner

[lilac stag]

doesn’t give speed to shroud foolio

[alpine wraith]

begone bleeder

your kind is not welcome on these lands!

go do pvp and die in a stormbolt or something

[lilac stag]

ask prophet if he has speed shroud

Or Eleem

[tribal blade]

hrm why play speed shroud when you can play infinite aoe 😉

that reminds me i've still been meaning to try sub out again in workshop and top

[lilac stag]

for the nonexistent rogue skips

[lilac stag]

||it’s still oof||

[tribal blade]

yeah they don't want rogues being able to help skip everything so they slap every big mob with true sight

so why does shroud even exist

[leaden prairie]

i hate the meld skip meta

its slow af

and it fails

[lilac stag]

so your tanks can stand too far away in raid on pull and boss hit you triggering chest death.

[tribal blade]

it's really frustrating when you fail a key just because of a skip

[short radish]

yeah

make mobs not see invis anymore

[tribal blade]

like i did a 16 workshop the other day, we get to last boss with 7 mins on timer

[short radish]

make rogues meta again

[tribal blade]

the vdh pulls the last pack to meld skip but he dies

we wipe

-2 mins off the timer immediately

once we res up the ret insta leaves

[lilac stag]

would have timed it if you just killed em

[tribal blade]

ehhhh

that boss takes a long ass time

but maybe

[lilac stag]

Subtract time you killed extra mobs for skip

and you would have been fine

[leaden prairie]

Sub rogue shroud speed should be rogue wide util

At least then shroud wouldn't be the most useless ability in the game

[tribal blade]

i failed like 2-3 cinderbrews in a row to the rsham's trinket putting him in combat with the double hobgoblins during that skip

[lilac stag]

lol

[tribal blade]

really should be in the class tree yeah

[short radish]

no

[lilac stag]

rogue baseline speed should be higher

[short radish]

rogues are the class that plays around stealth the most

so we need that stealth talent

its very thematic

its also really good that you need to take it for symbols

[leaden prairie]

have you played outlaw

[short radish]

10/10 design

[short radish]

dont you just macro sprint into every spell?

[lilac stag]

Yes. I’m talking baseline. Assa feels like wheelchair

[hazy breach]

They should just let us stealth past mobs again

[leaden prairie]

Nah that might cause slight downtime

[hazy breach]

Were gonna skip mobs anyway with DHs and meld

[lilac stag]

drop sub and outlaw down a bit to offset it

[leaden prairie]

I just press speed on cd

[hazy breach]

Just remove that shit and let us stealth past

Makes it easier for everyone

[leaden prairie]

Actually huge issue for me when I play the other 2 specs

Because I'm used to press sprint whenever I press wasd

[short radish]

sub is like 170% movespeed about 60% of the time though right?

then 140% the rest

[tribal blade]

it's just the massive irony that they wanted to make shroud less important so they slapped true sight on half the mobs in keys

[hazy breach]

Yes

And now shroud is useless but were skipping everything with DH+meld anyway

[tribal blade]

exactly

if anything they'll see this

[hazy breach]

Which is worse in every way

[leaden prairie]

You could do it without dh as well anyway

[tribal blade]

because it's such a big part of pushing this season

[leaden prairie]

As long as meld exist

Or you do it with a hunter

Or like

[tribal blade]

yeah meld so long as you can range quickly

[leaden prairie]

There is so many ways to skip stuffs

[hazy breach]

most can ye

[lilac stag]

It won’t be with turbo, until it is again.

[tribal blade]

it'll definitely still be a thing

maybe they should change truesight mobs to not be able to drop combat with you unless you die

no matter how far away you get

[old venture]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-chess-win-gif-17584376170894933930

My honest reaction to that suggestion

[hazy breach]

Probably something like that ye

[tribal blade]

haha fair

[hazy breach]

If they really want us to not be able to skip

But idk, just let us

[old venture]

If they want people to not be able to skip, up the trash count

Force them to pull shit

[tribal blade]

increase trash count and make those mobs less bad to play

[old venture]

Blizzard loves inventing the cutest solutions to an easily solved problem

[hazy breach]

Ye dont do it like the hobgoblins in meadery

[old venture]

Yep, the simplest way to avoid skipping

[hazy breach]

Those are the worst fucking mobs in the dungeon in terms of count

[old venture]

and they take for fucking ever to die

[hazy breach]

Theyre dangerous, have a ton of health and dont give any count

[tribal blade]

i was shocked when i saw how much count they gave

[hazy breach]

Its like ????

[tribal blade]

for how annoying they are to play

[old venture]

Blizzard makes mobs just shitty to pull, and then get mad people skip them lol

[tribal blade]

btw my tank found some good tech for hobgoblins

[short radish]

same with the light dudes in priory

[old venture]

Oh the elementals

With the beam that just fucks your ass

[tribal blade]

you put them up against one of the barrels against the wall, then whoever gets the charge goes to the other side of the barrel

[short radish]

yeah

[tribal blade]

then when it charges it hits that barrel and barely moves

makes hobgoblins WAY easier to play

it's insanely good

[old venture]

Like you can tell certain mobs were designed for m0s and heroic in mind

Because hobgoblins and the ass fucking elementals in priory should not scale the way they do with key level

With how awful they are

[tribal blade]

that's another thing about this season, is the big mobs in packs who are terrifying

like a race against time to kill them kind of scary

[old venture]

That and their whole kick change and everything fucking casting

Like dude cmon

[tribal blade]

i do not like kick simulator

[old venture]

Need 2-3 kicks to bring in a caster now without a DK

Like nice man

[tribal blade]

i really wish they would tone down on kicks

[hazy breach]

Arcane or Assa angle

[old venture]

Cool change

[tribal blade]

TRUE

sin is actually so good for funnel right now

[hazy breach]

Play iron wire and kicks no longer exists

[tribal blade]

and lose so much dam 😦

[old venture]

Like I wouldn’t mind it as much if the “non lethal” casts didn’t chunk you for a third of your health

[tribal blade]

at least as bleed

[old venture]

But like the stuff you don’t HAVE to kick still hurts

[tribal blade]

yeah it feels unfair

it also makes the meta of vdh and boomy with beam so important

[hazy breach]

Its not that bad as bleed

[old venture]

Yep, or a DK with slappy hands

[tribal blade]

ah ok, i thought it was like -10% dps

[hazy breach]

No its like 2%

[tribal blade]

oh ok, what do you drop

2nd shiv?

[hazy breach]

2nd shiv

Ye

[tribal blade]

ahhh ok

i better sim that later

shit i don't want to do less damage

i want to DO damage

[old venture]

I’m about to drop 2nd shit for IW

Because I’m just getting molested in keys by casters

Because ranged never kick

It’s fucking annoying

[leaden prairie]

remember when they said

[tribal blade]

i might try running no 2nd shiv in some dungeons

[leaden prairie]

they would reduce the amount of kicks and shit

cause ti was too much

[old venture]

[leaden prairie]

and then we get brew

???

so confused

[tribal blade]

lol yeah

[hazy breach]

Just play iron wire and silence the mobs for like 50 seconds

[old venture]

It’s okay, the dungeon balancing team is also very confused

Clearly

I just want to know why certain classes can vibe during bosses and I’m just always dying

[leaden prairie]

Idk I swear they just throw random words around in these interviews and just instantly forget about it

[old venture]

The amount of rot damage this expac is ridiculous

[hazy breach]

Like iron wire is absolutely insane, if they made it baseline it would get absolutely obliterated

[old venture]

Yeah it really is esp with the change to subterfuge

It’s silly strong

[hazy breach]

If you have both vanish charges you can have it up for 51 seconds

Unironically

[old venture]

With the way people don’t kick shit anymore, you’ll need it

[tribal blade]

goddamnit i might actually need to run it now then

fuck

if it's that low a dps loss

[old venture]

Tbh you won’t even feel the 2%

[hazy breach]

Like you could just skill it and dont play it ofc, but if youre pugging i'd def just recommend it for most

[old venture]

But you’ll feel those 3 casts hitting you while the hunter is payphoning in the back not kicking

[tribal blade]

my enhance REALLY wants me to be able to run it

so he's gonna be happy haha

[old venture]

The DR from iron wire is disgustingly good too

[leaden prairie]

Imagine if iron wire was just a rogue thing

[crystal bone]

eleem shoulda pinned the pic with every1 around us buffed except us

[leaden prairie]

Like idk, abilities from stealth silence

Something like that

[keen dome]

that'd own so much

[paper iron]

Zac

[leaden prairie]

[tribal blade]

that would be so cool

[leaden prairie]

Censi!

[paper iron]

Imagine if bte during crackshot was à stun

[leaden prairie]

Ye that sounds so trashs

Ngl

[paper iron]

That sounds bfa

Boeo

Bozo

[vale pine]

tbh i am still surprised iron wire did not get nerfed/removed like aoe stun on sub

[tribal blade]

TRUE

[old venture]

I’m surprised it survived indiscriminate carnage existing

The first version that hit 8 mobs lol

[vale pine]

exactly

like people got outraged by 1-2 sec extended aoe stun

but a aoe silence with a big dr on the enemies

thats fine?

[paper iron]

I mean

See it that way

[old venture]

They need to give sub and outlaw their own aoe stops, preferably not tied to spending combo points

[paper iron]

Double silence sigil existed for 2 entire season

[old venture]

Give sub a leg sweep or something lmao

[leaden prairie]

blind?

bozo

[old venture]

Make it a knock up

[paper iron]

If Iron wire was played it would be the same

[keen dome]

You spawn a Shadow Clone that kicks every mob in the nuts

[old venture]

Yeah except assa has that and IW, checkmate baguette boy

[leaden prairie]

real and true

[lilac stag]

Wdym the made KB unable to be parried. That’s our buff.

[paper iron]

And tbh i think the silence of iw is not even the strengh. The damage reduc tho is so good it s unbelievable idk how people forgett about this

[keen dome]

It's such a cool talent

[lilac stag]

let the healers heal mofo

[keen dome]

I want it as Sub, somehow

[lilac stag]

my job is dps

[keen dome]

I really like Blackjack for the same reason

[lilac stag]

[paper iron]

Blackjakx waycrest manor

For the littles

Rotate blind with 2 outlaws

[vale pine]

its the same with funnel

bfa sub got completely stomped for the entire xpac for having good funnel

now arcane mage, assassiantion rogue and some others have similar funnel

and you hear in the mdi

"this is a great niche"

so why was it removed from subtlety?

[tribal blade]

arcane's funnel right now is crazy

[paper iron]

Yea they have real funnel also. Unlike elecham which is just more aoe damage = more St damage =more aoe damage

[tribal blade]

actually crazy

[paper iron]

Shit is killing everything

Arcane is close to assa

[vale pine]

exactly

sub had trade offs

[paper iron]

And if u check zéross vs some reallt god mage

[vale pine]

making it actually design wise logical

[paper iron]

U can see that assa > arcane in most funnel

[tribal blade]

damn nice

[lilac stag]

You could exploit a mythic raid boss and render it useless with rogues in blue AH gear. Neither assa or arcane is doing that.

[graceful rock]

Give us smoke bomb back

[short radish]

yeah so give it back to sub

[paper iron]

Yea fuu but instead of buffing evis you Know that i Know that we Know that they ll buff BP

[keen dome]

PvE smoke bomb would rule

5s LoS and DR, let's go

[vale pine]

looks at ghuun 2.0 from season 1

hmm

you won't have the same constraints because the design of the fight was inherently flawed

and modern fight deisgn rarely throws useless/weak mobs at you you can funnel on

[hazy breach]

Arcane is burstier than assa

[lilac stag]

It’s not even close how busted sub was on zul

[vale pine]

because the enemies needed to die

[lilac stag]

you all having amnesia

[vale pine]

if the mobs could survive for the entire fight

wouldn't look that diffrent

[lilac stag]

haha

[hazy breach]

Sub was doing like 2x the damage of anybody else on zul ye

[lilac stag]

Put an assa rogue in there in blue AH gear

[young path]

You think the turbo boost ilvl’s, belt and head enchant going to scale evenly with all the specs?

Maybe we get lucky and that’s why we didn’t see love at the last tuning

…hopium

[paper iron]

There is an issue

[hazy breach]

Ye surely getting a proc that gives all stats (including haste) is better for sub than other specs

[lilac stag]

should combo be back? Yes - just not tuned as it was in bfa

[paper iron]

Assuming à mob is not dangerous and can stay alive the whole fight

Hé still gonna die to passive cleave

Which is way too high in current wow

[tribal blade]

fuck it bring back busted combo, we deserve it

sub WAS the premier funnel spec

that was our niche

and now that they've given it to other specs, we should get it back

[lilac stag]

yea and it was awful in m+ without mobs getting pulled in

[hazy breach]

Now its assas niche

[lilac stag]

at some point outlaw and sub OTP will realize we just funnel talents to assa

[hazy breach]

And in theory deathstalker sub does it decently too, but that assumes youre not doing the cringe aoe stuff for it

Which is like +7% overall dps in sims

Singular focus is such a dumb talent, especially when it scales with mastery on assa

[vale pine]

subtlety shared a lot of unique niches in DF+, sadly

[lilac stag]

I think I was over 1m dps higher overall in a priory 13 than our hunter and boomy.

[vale pine]

similar, bf is now on all 3 specs

[lilac stag]

Assa just has a lovely kit

and it works well within current m+ design

[vale pine]

assassiantion got a custom tailered stronger one, but

[lilac stag]

I still think dance CDR of + .1 or .2 & getting off skyfury reliance would solve a lot of sub issues in keys.

[paper iron]

Design wise i m mad at mage this expac

All 3 specs got so much ressources generation

They re actually becoming on the easy spectrum of gameplay

[hazy breach]

-0.1 or -0.2

[paper iron]

Infinite fireblast. Infinite arcane mana and charges. Infinite flurry and fingers

[lilac stag]

the “op” specs seem to be ones that eventually ignore resources

[paper iron]

Like u cant mess up as mage and be gone of the details

[lilac stag]

Ye

[paper iron]

Which is cool

But they lost so much of their hard to play identity

[lilac stag]

idk I watch our mages still one trick or fuck up plenty.

like watching devvoker swap hero trees

[paper iron]

And i trust they ll do the same with rogue soon. As mage boomie disco sp got last couple seasons

[lilac stag]

assa kinda hard to fuck up

[paper iron]

In raid yea

[lilac stag]

even in keys

[paper iron]

I cant let you say that

[lilac stag]

can you min max it? Sure

[paper iron]

Unless you play bleed and even then it s harder than every 3 mage specs

Dk

Boomie

Sp

Disco

Protpal

[lilac stag]

Baseline? Slam garrote and rupture and shiv

and you’re still doing enough to clear most “avg player hard keys”

[paper iron]

Minmaxing is pooling 4s before kb. It s not not losing à gcd during IC and not refresjing à dot on a mob that s alrrady dotted

[lilac stag]

imagine using KB

[paper iron]

I think current assa non bleed is as hard as outlaw s3

Or mostly challenging I should say

[tribal blade]

i find playing with IC is not simple

it took me a bit to get used to the cadence of using it

[paper iron]

It s not

[old venture]

That’s because you were overthinking it

[plush roost]

Ic? As in indiscriminate carnage?

[tribal blade]

it also requires you to think ahead

[paper iron]

Specially now we play no subterfuge no imp garr no sh suff

[lilac stag]

At its base it doesn’t. And it still will slap nuts played wrong.

[plush roost]

Im just catching up whats the talk about today pals

[tribal blade]

well more so about when to use vanish charges and knowing when to leave stealth etc etc

if you're not used to it it's very daunting

[lilac stag]

at a 16? Likely not but that’s also a different level

[old venture]

Just blast brother, unga bunga

[lilac stag]

avg key player im assuming wants the 3k mount

[old venture]

I’m at like 2800 and tbh idk if I care enough for the 3k mount lol

[lilac stag]

And you can 100% ignore DM. Just slap bleeds and unga hunga

[paper iron]

Btw i ve a joke

[old venture]

I primarily pug and its pain

[paper iron]

We te the 182th gally kill

And we recleared

And we dont get hof

[lilac stag]

I can try to help depending when you’re around

[hazy breach]

[lilac stag]

my tank is ex rogue. Knows how to pull for assa

[old venture]

So’s mine and he fucking sucks

It’s quake

[lilac stag]

Priest is trained to give me PI

[old venture]

Quake is the worst tank ever

Lmao

[lilac stag]

I mean. At least he’s actually inviting you to keys

[old venture]

He pulls like a bitch and blames it on being target capped

He isn’t I invite myself

[lilac stag]

Hahaha

Fair

[paper iron]

Quake

[old venture]

I had to bully him for a month straight

[lilac stag]

@cold badge stop pulling like a lil bitch in keys

[old venture]

And I get pulled into the rattiest weekly 10 no leavers

“But I’m target capped!”

[lilac stag]

Target cap DN

[old venture]

Love him tho, can’t wait to see him in 2 weeks

[crystal bone]

randomly ping him thruout the 2 weeks so it takes him hours to go thru them all when he returns

unless he is not gone for 2 weeks

idk the context

[paper iron]

Told me he s taking à break from oxi

Cue he s bored of playing Keys with à handicap class

[dusky nymph]

weird question but how tight do the cd windows need to be used in order to not lose too much damage? As in, can I delay them a little in order to work around a boss mechanic, for example?

or am I just lost when I get hit by a mechanic right when I enter the window?

[old venture]

He’s flying out for my wedding on the 18th

[short radish]

we delay windows all the time

best logs for gallywix delays flag by 1minute from 3->4

(mythic)

rik also gets delayed a bit for bombs

[dusky nymph]

and it doesn't kill dps?

[short radish]

sprocket 3rd go gets delayed 20 seconds because you have to move

no

[paper iron]

Should fit 8 gcd in every dance

[plush roost]

It doesn't kill dps because you're padding your ass off on adds LOL

[dusky nymph]

nice, so it's still like it was back when I was pushing world top 20... respeccing, ty guys!

[short radish]

if youre pushing again, i wouldnt go sub

[dusky nymph]

that bad?

[plush roost]

I mean I would

Its always the best spec at the start of a tier

[short radish]

depends what youre pushing

[plush roost]

Inherently tanky

[short radish]

we are currently in the middle of the tier though

[lilac stag]

Pushing Copium Tanks

[short radish]

or early middle

[dusky nymph]

I mean it was back in WoD when sub was overloaded heavily, most people sucked in damage but since I played it perfectly I was pushing way ahead

[lilac stag]

glhf

this ain’t wod sub

[dusky nymph]

just by running the raid over and over in pugs while loot-locked, just to improve on the mechanic windows

[plush roost]

If you're looking to do any difficult content on sub this tier, feel free. It still has its niche as a insane 1:30 burst spec, but it has fallen behind with gear and scaling

[dusky nymph]

so... low skill-ceiling wiggle-room after all?

[short radish]

well no

youre just going to be out damaged by every other class

[lilac stag]

back in my day when I was getting top 20 molten core…

[short radish]

unless you play basically perfectly

and they play slightly less than perfectly

[dusky nymph]

blegh

[short radish]

this is a heroic sprocket, basically patchwerk

[plush roost]

I mean thats not even remotely teue

[dusky nymph]

I guess no respeccing then, unfortunate, I love the specc a lot but my whole point of existence is fucking up wanna-be tryhards in pugs

[short radish]

i got a r6 on this

and im barely beating the other specs

[lilac stag]

it’s also not a ST raid. Whoever can delete adds wins

[short radish]

the othe rhunter is a good 20% ahead of me

[plush roost]

Yeah it isnt a st raid, sub is more than fine and useful

[short radish]

i mean if you want to style on people

then smashing them with a shitty spec is even better

[dusky nymph]

well true, but that doesn't work so well if I can't smash them to begin with lol

[short radish]

even with adds sub is still middle of the pack at best

[plush roost]

If you're in pugs, trust me, you're not playing with 99th percentile players

You can do anything provided you're skilled

[lilac stag]

Top 20 heroic pug parser

@keen dome you have competition inc

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[lilac stag]

invite them to your pug. Duke it out

[keen dome]

Nah, I do trash damage while pug leading on some fights 'cos I need to stop and type lmao

[lilac stag]

EXCUSES

[dusky nymph]

lmao

[keen dome]

I'm full of them

[lilac stag]

ALL I HEAR ARE EXCUSES

[swift tinsel]

just use hekili ez

[plush roost]

Stop and typing mid tier

Goes crazy

[dusky nymph]

I mean I hit 80 last week, still sitting on 645 ilvl, doubt I could even imagine hitting HCs at this point

[plush roost]

Those backstabs arent important anyway smhmyhead

[lilac stag]

No salt. Pugging week 1 is nuts

[dusky nymph]

unless I buy ACM

[lilac stag]

That’s some hardcore insanity

[plush roost]

Bro I pugged aotc ansurek week 1 last tier

[keen dome]

Just get 10 more ilevels and you'll get into heroic pugs

Wild

[plush roost]

That was actual jail prison insanity cancer

[keen dome]

lmao yeah

[lilac stag]

But did you lead it?

[plush roost]

I had to raid lead p2 onwards

[lilac stag]

That mother fucker above you is built different

[plush roost]

Because the "RL" got tongue tied focused

[keen dome]

haha

My fav pug in Week 1 Ansurek Heroic was a guy whod' been there for like, 10 hours. Was on voice. Was just incredibly angry at everything

I did not stick around 'cos wiping on P1 while a man so angry he desperately needs to go outside shouts at people non-stop isn't fun. but the few wipes I did were an experience

[plush roost]

Haha "okay guys how did you die here theres literally nothing going on just step in the popper"

[keen dome]

Yeah

99% of pugs were just wiping to acid waves in week 1

[plush roost]

I mean i think ansurek is legit one of the hardest weak 1 aotcs

[keen dome]

Absolutely agred

[plush roost]

That shit was unironically difficult on shitty ilvl

[keen dome]

I did her week 2 via a friends Mythic group giving me a cheeky help but

It was wild trying to kill her week 1

Fyrakk week 1 was really wild too but actually fun. Ansurek wasn't really fun around wipe 100

[plush roost]

I got my 4 piece out of it, worth

[keen dome]

I think Razageth week 1 was harder though

[plush roost]

I didnt play then, but i could imagine

Razageth pugs failed on week 25

[keen dome]

Yeah

People dieing to the breath in P1 feels the same as Ansurek acid waves

but then you had the P2 mechanic with + - and the dps check in the second intermission. incredibly brutal

Ansurek was basically get past P1 clean and you are probably killing her

[plush roost]

Ehhh I wouldn't say that

People really fucked up p3 spiders

[keen dome]

Yeah but P3 was way easier than P1 imo

[plush roost]

Ye, but pugs dont know what they're doing if they haven't seen it yet

Ah what a pain that aotc was haha

[keen dome]

That's true, haha

Still, amazing work getting it in pugs week 1, that's really impressive

[plush roost]

It took like 11 hrs lmfao

But boy was i locked in on week 2 jesus i had so much practice

[keen dome]

Yeah, same, haha

Ansurek is one of the fights I can do blindfolded

[lilac stag]

So next tier the two of you race to world first aotc pug.

[swift tinsel]

honestly more exciting than the actual race

I'd PPV that lol

[keen dome]

Man, World First AotC Pugging would go hard

What would the rules be? Has to be a true pug (I.e., majority, or entirely, random people with no connection). No voice comm (debatable but I feel like no voice is important for most pugging)

[swift tinsel]

I think those rules are especially important

like you have an RL and they LFG it on the spot

[keen dome]

Yeah

[swift tinsel]

could open up trolling potential though

but that's the true pug experience

[keen dome]

Yeah

It's also open to people joining to 'help' which would be against the nature of it

[swift tinsel]

Right, would be hard to control for

[keen dome]

Maybe that's part of the comedy of it

[vale pine]

i wish mythic was less restrictive

[keen dome]

same

If Mythic worked like heroic

I would 100% push for a Race to First Cutting Edge in a Pug

[lilac stag]

No Voice
No AotC on account (ie alt went to liquid/echo splits)
Set raid size to whatever the common pug size is 2/3/x

[keen dome]

Ooh, those are great

No AotC on account is really clever. Maybe no "Inviting people who have killed further"? too?

So if you are pugging 2/8, you can't invite people who are 3/8 onward

And yeah, 2/4/14 is the standard array pugs seem to adhere to for.. mysterious reasons nobody actually understands because it's arbitary

[swift tinsel]

Yeah that sounds fair

no "experienced lead/etc"

[lilac stag]

Is that a loot drop cutoff?

[keen dome]

No, that's 30 people

[swift tinsel]

I thought there was some boss damage scaling thing

[keen dome]

20 is.. 4 items, 25 is 5, 30 si 6?

[lilac stag]

I thought there were a couple inbetween

[keen dome]

Might be

[lilac stag]

What is 15

[keen dome]

There are many reasons but the most common reason is because everyone else does it

And 2/4/14 is the most comrtable since it's 4 groups, 1 healer per group

[lilac stag]

You could do no WAs

[keen dome]

I already do

:D

[swift tinsel]

hell yeah

[keen dome]

I just use Bigwigs

[swift tinsel]

ever since we had a raid meltdown from the Among Us in Sepulcher I've been very against them

[keen dome]

I think WA's are okay but you have to write them yourself.

[swift tinsel]

when the Pieces aura broke

[keen dome]

I think: Bigwigs / DBM fine (Dealers choice). No raid specific WA's unless you write them yourself. I.e., it's valid to write an automated WA to call stuff on a complex fight because it can be very very helpful

[swift tinsel]

Yeah, no auto-assigning ones

Automated is kinda loaded though if its aotc

since heroic isn't really that intense

[keen dome]

Yeah