subtlety

[alpine wraith]

tbh fire had that problem for the longest time

it was never the "prog" spec

because you needed gear for it

then some many years later blizz decided how abou

we just ignore you need gear for combustion

[vale pine]

if you are only good mid season, many people won't switch to you

[alpine wraith]

sub is kinda like that but reverse we do good baseline but as the time goes on the lack of talent focusing on our strenghts

kneecap us

[proven plover]

deleting aug was for sure the right decision by blizzard

[vale pine]

especially if compeating options even without nerfs are still statistically equal or stronger

[alpine wraith]

did not help they nerfed our big trinket two times

before raid

[astral narwhal]

This is what I was kinda getting at, it feels like it was always going to be weak later since it didn’t scale as well as sin with hear, and was just really good with a myth track weapon only. I’m more curious what people here think about the odds sub starts dominant and stays on top in s3

[alpine wraith]

the problem sub had this tier is ww did everything it did better

[lucid jackal]

Scaling isn't why sub falls off

[alpine wraith]

it is not a scaling thing

assa just got buffed

[lucid jackal]

I mean what spec ends up being best is literally rng

If they want outlaw to be the best spec it'll be overtuned

If they want sin to be the best spec it'll be overtuned

[alpine wraith]

blizz nowadays does not have strong scaling talents like we had in cata or mop

when sub ended up being best because of night calling

just being flat out op

[lucid jackal]

Sub has access to tools that the other 2 rogue specs don't have which make it a strong prog spec

[alpine wraith]

and as guy said

if blizz wants assa to be playued

and it is underperforming

[vale pine]

the reason sub fell off was basically the tier set nerf

[alpine wraith]

they just nerf sub/outlaw

and buff assa twice

voila

[vale pine]

the baseline was buffed to compensate

which lead to another nerf to secret

[alpine wraith]

we were going to have a big cool tier with burst

[astral narwhal]

Yea this hurt a lot, i didn’t understand it when it came out and still don’t

[alpine wraith]

then ehehe

[vale pine]

because a higher baseline looked strong pre season

[alpine wraith]

then came week 1 weapon craft

[vale pine]

it is kind of logical if you look at it this way

[alpine wraith]

and transmitter from last season

LOOK SUB OP

[lucid jackal]

Sub tier set got nerfed because the Tier set was worth like 40% dps

[vale pine]

subtlety just naturally fell behind as others got their tier set and gear

[alpine wraith]

then they just did my job here is done but first also nerf outlaw and buff assa

[tepid trellis]

i dont even care that sub is the "worst" rogue spec

i just wanna do dmg in raid

[vale pine]

and tuning buffed specs lower in performance

[alpine wraith]

we just dont do dmg yea

our big cds are like

there

[vale pine]

including assassiantion, which was equal in output

[tepid trellis]

there is nothing more infuriating to me on farm

to do a top 10

log

[timid fossil]

Subs competitive in M+ which I appreciate

[astral narwhal]

Did they also nerf st in that patch? Or was that later?

[tepid trellis]

just to see me being 9th on the meter

[lucid jackal]

That was later

[sterile kiln]

classic

[tepid trellis]

and some blue logging hunter beating me

like fuck off

[formal helm]

[vale pine]

i mean thats what i am saying

[astral narwhal]

I really didn’t understand that nerf, I thought the whole spec was built around fishing for one big hit

[vale pine]

rogue was bad

but for some reason only assassination was buff worthy while both specs performed the same

it just lead to this performance gap

[proven plover]

I think they are legitemately overcompensating for sins treatment during df

[alpine wraith]

blizz just has a big problem with wanting to balance around their stats

when we just want big number

like our burst rn is like 7 mil maybe 8 now with more gear as things come

[vale pine]

sin was the best spec in 2 out of 3 raids, so wdym?

[alpine wraith]

with old tier it would have been around 13m or so

[vale pine]

and rogue in general was bad in the 3rd

[alpine wraith]

and our downtimes would be worse

but worth

maybe we would do less dps

but it would be a smolderon situation in vexxie and on bandit/stix we would rock the party

even on fights like mug zee we would not be super bad as we would get 2 sets of cds

but now we have this mid thing

not super bad cd power but not amazing

[vale pine]

its just assassiantion was nerfed after a month in s3, making sub take over

and in s1 earlier than that doing the same

so the main problem of dragonflight was the time between buffs and nerfs

e.g. assassination got a talent rework mid seaosn 1

and buffs in s2 and s3 to get back up to be the dominant spec

both is not talked about or ignored because it was not early in the season

[lucid jackal]

Sin didn't get nerfed a month in

And no amount of sin tuning would change the fact that dust was game breaking on smolderon, fyrak and tindral

[alpine wraith]

think it was first weeks where kb got nerfed and spatter too

[vestal escarp]

Week 3

[alpine wraith]

tbh i never understood why they hate kb that much too

[vale pine]

it was nerfed 2 times iirc, and play rate did drop after a month of play

[alpine wraith]

it was a cool button

now it is whatever

[vale pine]

so the first month of the tier was fairly dominated by assassiantion

[lucid jackal]

Fuu do u care about tuning or popularity

[vale pine]

what i care about is having specs compete

[proven plover]

wait what do you mean? the only time sin was truly dominating was at the end of the xpac, 2nd tier it was very good on st sure but other than that sub was favored

[lucid jackal]

That's not what I asked

Do you care what spec is popular or what spec is actually better

[proven plover]

T1 of df there were no assa logs at all in top 10s on any of the bosses at any point in time

[vale pine]

my message answers this

[lucid jackal]

I don't care what spec was popular in amidrasil because most people werent killing smolderon, tindral and fyrak

[vale pine]

i would not do subtlety TC mainly if i cared about popularity

[lucid jackal]

So then why bring up the fact that sin was more popular

[vale pine]

but for rogue tuning and popularity go hand in hand

you can look at raids over the last 10 years and find this fairly easy

[lucid jackal]

Sin was more popular. It's easy and strong enough for 2/3rds of the raid

But smolderon it was nowhere close

Sub was the best spec in the game on that fight, especially on prog

Fyrak was made significantly easier by sub damage on shields on early prog same for tindral

[tepid trellis]

even if they didn't nerf assa you would still play sub on Smolderon and Tindrall

Assa was the play on fyrakk before they took it out back 2 weeks in a row

[vale pine]

exactly

also assassiantion remianed the popualr spec even after nerfs

because of design decisions in the rework

[vestal escarp]

I think on tindrall too?
At least race was sin on tindrall

[tepid trellis]

sub was more popular in mythic

by quite a fcking lot

1.3k assa parses vs 7.6k sub

[wispy bolt]

There are a grand total 4 timed 18s and 3 of them are zeross. In no world is sub competitive in m+

[vestal escarp]

Turns out mythic raiders care about performance

[proven plover]

meanwhile I was playing outlaw on smolderon

[vale pine]

yes, but had very low popularity in heroic/normal

[tepid trellis]

12,8k sub

6.5k assa

so

was it?

[vale pine]

interessting

[tepid trellis]

in normal you are correct

[vale pine]

i don't have a snapshot of the statistics anymore

[tepid trellis]

assa did win there

[vale pine]

alright, what point are we discussing

i am not rly following

[proven plover]

well initially you said assa was favored during df

[vestal escarp]

13k and 7k parses in whole tier?

[vale pine]

yes

[proven plover]

I think it was about that somewhere

[vale pine]

during the first weeks of the raid

but was nerfed after

[proven plover]

all g

[tepid trellis]

first 2-3 weeks of the tier assa was overtuned by a bit

[lucid jackal]

Dude why do u care about fucking heroic spec stats what are we talking about

[tepid trellis]

a bit pumped up by Aug hooks being completely broken

[alpine wraith]

spatter being ehehe

and kb also got a stray

[vale pine]

i don't think my statement is wrong.
Assassination was initially favored in every tier, but sadly got overnerfed in s1/3

[proven plover]

getting pi as assa during the first few weeks was fun though

[vale pine]

it lead to a lower play rate of the spec

[lucid jackal]

AND THEN SUB WAS THE BEST SPEC!!!!

FOR ALL OF DF THE GO TO SPEC WAS SUB ON THE HARDEST FIGHTS!!!

[vale pine]

also confirms the theory i mentioned that play rate and competitiveness is relying on tuning

[proven plover]

but why are you focusing on the first couple rounds of tuning

by that logic sub is the best spec right now

before we got hit

[vale pine]

if you overnef a spec, another one will be better

so yes, whats your point

it sounds very logical

[proven plover]

my point is tuning was going against assa during DF, as you also seem to agree

and thats why I think they are favoring it right now

[vale pine]

i mean again

they tried to make assassiantion better

it saw buffs and reworks to make it more competitive

the season 1 rework just did not work out as good

and the buffs in season 3 ended up changing the balance enviroment

i don't think we disagree that assassiantion had periods of time it was bad

season 2 all 3 rogue specs ended up bad

but there was active effort put into making sure a more competitive enviroment was there

[vestal escarp]

Aberrus is really the case that should be left out tbh

[vale pine]

which you don't see in tww

[proven plover]

thats true

effort was there

[vale pine]

like assassiantion saw a massive power creep in s3 with the rework

[proven plover]

so you are saying our rework is coming s3

do you have insider knowledge

[vale pine]

something outlaw and subtlety still miss

yes ofc

[proven plover]

[vale pine]

sub will get funnel back and will get execute and all the good stuff

[alpine wraith]

true our rework is coming home

executioner mastery will execute

you will be able to rupture a target 3 times

[vale pine]

jokes aside

[alpine wraith]

big vision gam ing

[proven plover]

but that is already a reality

[vale pine]

i personally care mostly about specs being competitive

[alpine wraith]

nah we havent had double ruptures since wod

[vale pine]

so to say to have reasons to play one or the other

[alpine wraith]

well maybe in df we did have a sitation with tier

[proven plover]

I mean for the tier buff

[vale pine]

this needs to be supported by tuning sadly

also i don't think compensation is something wow devs do

because if they would, you would see a lot more outlaw and subtlety tuned high

to compensate for the very one sided tuning of legion/bfa

i also think we all agree that we want specs to be competitive to each other and ofc other classes in the game

[proven plover]

its just the way I'm trying to explain whats happening right now

yes of course we do but its not what the developments are having in mind it seems

[teal night]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[proven plover]

so there should be some other reasoning behind it

I mean its just all speculation

no real essence in this topic

[vale pine]

haha true

[proven plover]

you could say that rn there are different developers assigned to this topic, other team leads having different takes than the ones in legion/bfa

[vestal escarp]

In nerubar all three specs were side by side in statistics and everybody was happy

[proven plover]

judging by the frequency of (heavy) tuning during the first couple weeks of season 1

the tuning is feeling more like a moba

[vale pine]

i think everyone is happy if you can play all 3 specs

like in s2 sl

[proven plover]

than actual efforts to truly balance the specs

statistically

[quaint lodge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[proven plover]

it feels to me like they are just trying to cater to different people

prefering ones over the others for some time, then swapping it up

so everyone is happy but burst wise xd

[vale pine]

the last 3 seasons are very one sided

you essentially had assassiantion as the dominant pick

in m+ and raid

[proven plover]

yes and its not like that only for rogues though

other classes its pretty much the same

[lucid jackal]

Bro sin was not the dominant spec for 3 seasons

[vale pine]

the fact that subtlety got a massive buff to bp

[lucid jackal]

Why are we just lying

[proven plover]

I think he means having 1 spec being the dominant one

not sin

[vale pine]

was it not in s4 df?

let me look

[proven plover]

s4 df was sin dominated for sure

but its also not a real season

[vestal escarp]

Yeah fated awakened bla bla

But all they did was to revert the early amirdrassil nerfs

[proven plover]

I just feel like the way they are handling tuning right now is truly comparable to a moba

[vestal escarp]

They're favoring the popular spec out of three and it's understandable

No need to overthink stuff

[proven plover]

but the popularity comes from performance

more people gravitate towards whats better and thats a natural development

[vestal escarp]

Only in top end gameplay scenarios like mythic raiding

[proven plover]

I wouldnt say sin is more popular than sub or outlaw if we were all put on an even playing field

[lucid jackal]

But even when sub is better sin is still popular

Balance in this game is literally just random

Whatever spec is the best is purely a dice roll

[proven plover]

I refuse to believe this is whats going on internally within development

[vale pine]

statistics show it to be the case in amirdrasil, aberrus and vault of incarnates awakened.

so i am not lying

unless statistics are

[proven plover]

you mean on the topic of sin dominating s4? no its true

[proven plover]

I mean yeah you are right, probably because its easier to play

[lucid jackal]

Yes, it's why bm hunter is one of the most popular specs in the game despite how weak it is on some tiers

[proven plover]

but the difference wouldnt be as big as it is right now at least

[vale pine]

we had the same discussion recently

[lucid jackal]

Some guild progging larodar 8 weeks into the Tier isn't playing sub because it's 3% better

They are a noob so they play sin because they like it and it doesn't matter

[proven plover]

I bet there are lots of people who would rather play sub playing sin rn

just because of the tuning

[vale pine]

idk why you keep repeating it

bm is not a ranged class with simialr constrains as rogue, try to find a comparable example

[lucid jackal]

What

Bm and mm are both ranged

Guess which is stronger and guess which is more popular

[vale pine]

i give up

[lucid jackal]

I'm sure you can figure it out based on the framing of the question

[proven plover]

he was referring to a spec being easy and therefore being popular

[vale pine]

i am not having this exact same discussion again

[proven plover]

not really comparing it to rog tho

[vale pine]

you are right

[alpine wraith]

ret pala is an interesting thing too lately

[vale pine]

subtlety is good

[alpine wraith]

since the df rework

[vale pine]

does not need buffs

[lucid jackal]

Nowhere did I say sub is good

[vale pine]

was always good

[lucid jackal]

Nowhere did I say it doesn't need buff

I have constantly asked for sub buffs for weeks now

[vestal escarp]

Makes me mald every time

The favoritsm on ret is insane lately

[vale pine]

there was also no balance diffrence in the last 3 seasons because i lie

i made the statistical proofe up

[proven plover]

im telling you guys the moba theory is real

theres probably some people from riot who were employed

we will have our spotlight, being favored in tuning.. in time.. soon for sure

[alpine wraith]

well they could be trying different things for sure

just mobas chance every 2 weeks or less

wow takes months sometimes

for tuning

[vale pine]

okay, lets continue with a normal discussion

[alpine wraith]

although it has been more often now

[vale pine]

i think the problem is, we have not enough data

[twilit phoenix]

not unless you subscribe to the ryukage shareholder theory

[alpine wraith]

yea lets talk about why all nightfall loot sucks

[proven plover]

didnt you see whats happening tuning wise during the first couple weeks of s1 or s2

[twilit phoenix]

bis offhand for outlaw!!!!

[alpine wraith]

firelands timewlking coming soon too

big matrix situation

[vale pine]

keep in mind outlaw is the only spec that can roll the dice

[alpine wraith]

now that hero can get further

[lucid jackal]

This comic is older than some of the ppl in this discord

This has always been how it works

[alpine wraith]

ahaha oldie goldie

[proven plover]

its been more frequent though I feel like

[alpine wraith]

forgot the icefrog way

[proven plover]

or am I just getting old

[alpine wraith]

+2 armor to a champion

[lucid jackal]

Old

[alpine wraith]

suddenly it is op

[vale pine]

haha

[alpine wraith]

visionary

[vale pine]

i don't think taking turns is that correct

outlaw wasn't that good in raiding for quite a while

[alpine wraith]

used to be more like that in tbc /wotlk

and classic

you kinda began in 1 spec then finished expansion across diff ones

[proven plover]

outlaw is farely okay right now is it not? besides having to use ks?

[alpine wraith]

the whole elementals being immune to fire etc

and tbc with assa being ehehe then combat coming back

and a weird hybrid i forgot the talents too

wotlk is kind of a blur in my mind

remember arpen combat but not much more of naxx/ulduar

[vale pine]

subtlety was seens a pvp spec in most of classic

just saying

[lucid jackal]

It would be the best spec on every fight if it wasn't killing Spree

Except mugzee

Except more guilds are doing fast mugzee strats now so

[vale pine]

i think the execute niche would be fitting on outlaw

to give it a way to compete or stand out

[alpine wraith]

prep was super strong back then

rogue cds were not balanced but also not many things were tbh

you kinda had a paper scissors rock

situation

[kind bluff]

I'm late but how the fuck are there no sub buffs?

[vale pine]

blizz is probably look at the balance enviroment in a diffrent way

thats why

[slate marlin]

Ye

without glasses and drunk

[vale pine]

lol

[jaunty heath]

I feel like guys view makes sense during really fucking early prog in high high end guilds

Because yes sub has a Nieche there

But for anyone else

The nieche just always dies with gear

Even smolderon ended up having higher dps specs than sub

And it was THE perfect sub boss

[slate marlin]

Sub was also very good on m+ early season

When it had crafted dagger and transmitter

[jaunty heath]

If bursting something down quick is necessary the nieche is there

But once people get gear shit dies regardless of that

[manic sierra]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[proven plover]

Sub is fun to play but it is also kinda messy and complicated, theres a very low Chance someone would perform good without truly studying the spec and sucking in the guides.. especially with the ammount of little niche min maxy things we have right now

[slate marlin]

i think it will get dumbed down

[proven plover]

Maybe thats why they are Favoring sin, because they want people to just play

[slate marlin]

which is not a bad thing

[sly shore]

!upo

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/316923682607857685/1346745738532491296/New_Project.jpg

[proven plover]

Like they are trying to give people more incentive to Gravitate towards a spec they feel like is more presentable and "complete" right now

[lucid jackal]

Well Part of that is that on a lot of tiers. Specs just get chain buffed. Except rogue

[slate marlin]

I think this may be the answer tbf, sin is extremely well designed atm

[proven plover]

That could also mean that changes are in the works surely something more than a bp Buff

[vale pine]

they can't buff bp more

if they do we stop using evis

[proven plover]

It would solve their hate towards our funnel at least

[vale pine]

subtleites funnel design already solved this

not using bp was a massive trade off

its diffrent to funnel on assassination which comes with little cost

[slate marlin]

funneling on assa also deals massive aoe dmg

[vale pine]

my point

[proven plover]

I still think they should rework ks to be like dhs blade dance

How they are keeping that spell as it is and was is beyond me

[vale pine]

Ks def. qualifies for a rework

[proven plover]

Its very anti player

The way it functions goes against every principle of their fight designs

I really dont understand why its still the way it is after all this time

[vale pine]

i think rogue has multiple talents which would need to be looked at

[slate marlin]

Goremaw

the entire shadowstrike right wow

having shroud roar on soec and nkt class tree...

[coarse bronze]

does this sim take into account the GCD penalty? The Sample Sequence Table still presses a button every ~1s

[vale pine]

oh right, let me add that

[hollow spear]

But I think his point still stands about sub rogue's usefulness. Early on, it helps you overcome dps checks thanks to the on demand burst. Eventually, other classes can deliver the required burst thanks to gear and/or boss nerfs. Balance changes impact that of course, but the idea stays the same.

And I'm with Stealthi. It just feels ass to play really well (based on parses), while not being even close to showing up in your top 5 on details.

[lucid jackal]

That is true but high baseline tuning can get around "getting weaker as the Tier goes on due to not needing the job to be filled by sub anymore "

If sub was 5-10% stronger, being weaker than prog wouldn't be a factor here

[hollow spear]

That is true, but they kinda messed this tier up with transmitter being the way it was and trying to get the tier set under control.

I'm really wondering why they wouldn't just hit us with an aura buff.

It's not like they need to be creative here, there's 0 risk.

We wouldn't suddenly be too strong anywhere imo.

[lucid jackal]

I'd Agree

[jaunty heath]

They just didn’t need to touch tier (the last nerf only the ones before fair)

Baseline buff right before patch didn’t do us good in the long run

[wide kernel]

idk. We're still generally beind on places where BP matters, like first pulls compared to marks or lock even and we in that scenario are uncapped aoe or at least semi uncapped

the problem with eviserate also isn't that its damage sucks, it's that it feels bad using it most places. You will delete any pack of like 8 mobs in most dungeons this season at like 15 and below if it's not higher, it's that you do nothing after that

imo what would make sub statistically be better and feel better at the same time is unrestrict outside CD energy so much

[lucid jackal]

But that's how the spec is designed to work

It's meant to be a afk outside of Cd's, with big burst

When the spec was like that in shadowlands, people complained that cooldowns didn't matter enough

[lilac stag]

Outside of dance is CDR farming. Which is fine. They could still bring that damage up above healer levels of dps while not impacting the burst cds (which should be higher)

[wide kernel]

i get that, but it doesn't really work well

[lilac stag]

If dance CDR was slightly higher I don’t think anyone would care

It works great

[lucid jackal]

If the spec was tuned 10% higher it'd work just fine lol

[lilac stag]

Liking / Disliking it versus it working is two separate things

[tepid trellis]

dance cdr does need to be slightly higher

[wide kernel]

when i say it doesnt work, what i mean is that you basically afk while your team has to kill stuff

[lilac stag]

You don’t

[tepid trellis]

the fact that there is like 0 breathing/wiggle room in our cdr loop

is not good for the spec

[lilac stag]

that’s what doesn’t work right now

[wide kernel]

like being tank pull dependent probably isn't a good design

[lilac stag]

Assa is more tank dependent.

Spec is top 5 in keys

[wide kernel]

this isn't even neccessarily a viability thing

but like imagine youre a sub rogue or playing with a sub rogue in like 10's or something

[lilac stag]

You said it didn’t work

Then follow it with tank issues

[wide kernel]

we're talking about something different rn

[lilac stag]

What’s there to imagine. I’ve done 10s as sub

[wide kernel]

a newer player ends up having a pretty bad time if the tank is pulling pretty poorly for your cd's and that's bad for both of them

what does the tank then also think about your spec

[lilac stag]

You know what doesn’t work? Not having sky fury.

[wide kernel]

like that's legitimately bad game design

[vale pine]

the problem is, the burst is not high enough to justify the weak afk phase

its all tuning

[lilac stag]

Pugs are not a good metric to say it’s designed well.

[tepid trellis]

thats the nature of classes with burst profiles

[wide kernel]

well for it to be a good spec it HAS to be designed at least partially for that

[lilac stag]

Is UH bad?

Is Arcane bad?

[wide kernel]

how much of their dps is loaded into cd's though

[tepid trellis]

route bad=bad dmg
good route but bad cooldown usage=bad damage

[lucid jackal]

This is how every cd spec in the game works rho

It's not sub

Most specs in wow are cooldown specs

So most specs are design issues?

[wide kernel]

no

[vale pine]

+1 this

[wide kernel]

dude, are we not the worst class outside of cd's?

[lilac stag]

Assa and Outlaw are two of the minorities that don’t need cds in m+

Assa is the best spec outside of CDs in m+

[wide kernel]

if that statement is true, then it is also true we are the most vulnerable to situations like that, and no other specs don't struggle with that issue

[lucid jackal]

Yes but again, if the spec was given a 10% aura buff tomorrow, it'd still be the worst spec outside of cooldowns, but that wouldn't matter because the burst is so high

Many specs deal 0 damage outside of Cd's

[vale pine]

assassiantion had a lot of thought put into the redesign

[lilac stag]

Arcane has 3 phases of dps just like sub

Difference? It’s tuned higher

[wide kernel]

is it though? because we have smaller cd's and those are really bad too

[vale pine]

it is why its aoe is uncapped, its allowed to do absurd funnel and also is allowed to keep burst on single target while being one of the highest sustained aoe classes

[tepid trellis]

sub does pretty good dmg inside of shadow dances on AoE

[wide kernel]

what we are actually saying is that sub specifically has 16 to 24 seconds every minute and a half

[tepid trellis]

even without flag/blade

[wide kernel]

and outside of those cd's we don't do anything

[lucid jackal]

Are you telling me that if sub got a 10% buff it'd still be bad?

[wide kernel]

in some ways yes

[lucid jackal]

What does that even mean

[wide kernel]

understand it's not just the complexity that keeps people away from this spec, and it's not just the tuning

[lucid jackal]

What does that have to do with what I said

[final holly]

I love how tight the cd loop feels on high uptime raid fights so it would be nice if you could talent into slightly more cdr for a more dungeon centric build

[wide kernel]

and it most definetely has to do with its damage profile

[lilac stag]

It means they don’t like the spec design of highs and lows and will place blame on other factors in keys.

[wide kernel]

yes but that's so so so many people

that also indicates bad game design

[lilac stag]

It’s not

People just don’t like the class

Arcane is literally ranged sub rogue

People love it

[tepid trellis]

having high, highs and having low, lows was my whole reason for starting to play sub rogue many many years ago

[lucid jackal]

Why would I care about appealing to the masses when the masses enjoy bm hunter

[wide kernel]

because if we were actually played as a spec we would receive tuning

[lilac stag]

Why take a rogue when you need lust

[tepid trellis]

Even when sub is meta we dont get attention

[dawn summit]

okay but it wouldn't be the same spec? xdd

[lilac stag]

Assa tuned well. Still not played by the masses

[wide kernel]

thats where im kinda of lost on this subject tbh

[lilac stag]

It’s rogue in general.

[wide kernel]

assa is literally the go to spec for rogue

[dawn summit]

rogue is a pain to level and clunky to play in the open world and low level content because of a mulltitude of things about the class

[lilac stag]

Put some time into visuals and more will play it

[wide kernel]

when people in the mdi say they are going to bring a rogue they mean assa

[vale pine]

Update One button Rotation

Adding perfect trinket use, racial and potion use did bring the damage difference from the one button rotation down to only ~40%. This is a lot closer now and makes the rotation helper a somewhat reasonable option for very casual players.
Note: Added the gcd penalty in the update.

Simulations:
⚔️ Single Target
🧌 Dungeon Slice

[dawn summit]

take them away and it's not rogue, keep them and the onboarding is a wreck

[lilac stag]

And compared to every other class but evoker no one cares

[wide kernel]

so for those reasons, that's why i think something is messed up with our damage profile, not just tuning

[vale pine]

you mean dev attention?

[tepid trellis]

yes

[vale pine]

thats sadly true

[lilac stag]

The class is the problem. Not the specs. We have no visuals & abysmal hero talents across the board.

[dawn summit]

and, again, rogue is a pain to play in the content that has the most mass engagement

[tepid trellis]

you can change the dmg profile of sub in however many ways you want

[vale pine]

rogue in general is not that popular already

[lilac stag]

people like pretty shit

[tepid trellis]

people are still not gonna play rogue

[dawn summit]

delves are an exception to that and, imo, could legitimately help

[tepid trellis]

outside of the select few that decided to main it

[wide kernel]

i mean thats a good question, why is it people don't like playing rogue

[dawn summit]

it's weird and it's a pain to level and the visuals are boring

[lilac stag]

If you gave sub princess animations on god people would play it

[vale pine]

i mean i had talks with people outside of rogue

[dawn summit]

open world content on rogue is ass because feint is bad when a mob is smacking you in the face and eva is a 2 min cd

[tepid trellis]

actions are locked behind energy + 0 visual feedback

[dawn summit]

yeah that as well

[vale pine]

which are theorycrafters and higher end raiders

[tepid trellis]

often times you have to sweat like a mfer to play rogue

[vale pine]

and some who don't play rogue think of assassiantion as complicated

because you need to track dots

so they actually assume its the most complicated rogue spec

[lucid jackal]

That's not it works

[tepid trellis]

Rogue has just never been popular in wow

and that isnt changing

[vale pine]

you would to put in massive effort and break some of the unspoken rules

to make rogue popular

[lucid jackal]

Rogue hasn't been popular for awhile. You can play artifacts, hero talents, azerite powers. Whatever u want Ig

[wide kernel]

the archetype in itself is also pretty niche i guess

[final holly]

What's the value of being a popular class though

[tepid trellis]

more attention

[dawn summit]

rogue is just conceptually not super appealing to people who are rpg focused and confusing gameplay-wise for people who are performance oriented

[wide kernel]

you actually get to stay relevant for most times in most patches

viseve ret paladin

[lucid jackal]

Is warrior not popular and gets extremely limited attention? Same with dh?

[lilac stag]

Ret was popular and ignored for multiple expansions

[final holly]

Is that actually true? Or does it just feel true?

[wide kernel]

yes this is true

[vale pine]

you essentially get more dev time to your exposure, so bugs will be fixed faster and tuning will typically be more in your favor

[tepid trellis]

considering DH is on their like fcking 3rd rework since DF id say yes

[wide kernel]

how viable would we be if all of our bugs were fixed

[vale pine]

i give you one example for subtlety that would not be the case on other specs or classes

[tepid trellis]

they keep changing the fundamentals for them

[vale pine]

season 4 dragonflight broke logs in a way to not show roughly 20% of subtleties damage

[lucid jackal]

I don't think a single dh player would agree with you

[dawn summit]

it's fine to be an unpopular class, you should instead be asking that the dev attention we DO get is done by people who have a better understanding of our class and more focused on changes that are good for the longterm health of each spec

[vale pine]

this issue took over a month to fix

[wide kernel]

also

ask newer people who play sub and then instantly give up what is wrong with it

[tepid trellis]

they dont have to, just compare dev notes between rogue and DH

[wide kernel]

who don't grind it out for like a month straight until the all the weird unintuitive stuff actually makes sense

[winged prawn]

Everytime DH was good in Keys, it got insta nerfed

[vale pine]

so for a month at the start of a season, you have a spec sitting at the very bottom of the wcl charge because of a bug introduced by blizz and it does not get fixed

[lilac stag]

Veng still going strong in keys

[tepid trellis]

Also DH is in the same spot rogue is

[winged prawn]

I meant havoc

[tepid trellis]

you just have 1 guy that plays it in the guild

combine the rogue numbers

and you pretty much have havoc numbers

[lilac stag]

our havoc and I commiserate together

https://tenor.com/view/spider-man-we-one-gif-18212100

[swift tinsel]

We had to recruit a havoc for this season and that took a hot minute

[vale pine]

the world first raids struggled to have rogue players for a bit too

[tepid trellis]

havoc does get changes to its gameplay quite a good amount

[wide kernel]

anyway i argue that all the weird stuff that turns off new players off of sub is somewhere in the smaller CD's. I don't really know where

[tepid trellis]

now do they like those changes?

i hear many say no

[swift tinsel]

They’re kinda getting the spriest mantle lately

[winged prawn]

Havoc feels so good this season in Keys

No mover is goated

[swift tinsel]

Reaver this season does feel quite good

[vale pine]

rogue is also bad in content casual players care about

soloing old raids

questing

[swift tinsel]

And the new glaive interactions plus wounded quarry have nice feedback

[lilac stag]

Rogue also sucks to level

[winged prawn]

Aldrachi feels Like a better Version of deathstalker

[final holly]

I wonder if that's doubly impacted by low player count; less competition breeding less top tier players

[vale pine]

its what i mentioned earlier with unspoken rules

i give you some of them

[final holly]

Also this is false, outlaw is bis for farming old raids

[vale pine]

animations need to be subtlete

[winged prawn]

I feel like energy classes in general are less played

[vale pine]

the class is designed in a glass canon way, but not allowed to do absurd dps even in open world

[tepid trellis]

feral monk and rogue

[swift tinsel]

It’s admittedly not fun to play with

[tepid trellis]

and monk doesent even care about it

[vale pine]

for subtlety specific, complexity is often a key value when designing talents

e.g. look at the first dance rework

[winged prawn]

U are right, its more about downtime, bfa Frost dk or sin now

[tepid trellis]

tbf i never fucking understood why the 6 sec out of combat is even a thing

should just be on combat drop

[vale pine]

the idea of the rework of the talent was great, but simply "out of combat" was too simple, now we have a unpredictable timer on top of that that does not even start when you can enter stealth

it is what i mean with complexity for the sake of it

[tepid trellis]

like imagine the outrage

if Carnage for assa

was 6 sec out of combat

[winged prawn]

[final holly]

Would tfd even been busted if it was just out of combat and you could proc it with vanish mid trash pull

[tepid trellis]

it would be quite strong

but not broken

[final holly]

Like it would be stronger but it doesn't sound crazy

[tepid trellis]

like the talent already doesent work in raid cuz you cant drop combat

so why not just lean into the m+ fantasy with it?

[final holly]

It would give vanish value but I'm not sure if you'd even talent into extra vanishes

[tepid trellis]

but then they made it pure fcking hell

by slapping 6 sec onto it

[vale pine]

its just for pvp

[quaint lodge]

surprised i got this name on a popular realm

[vale pine]

100%

[tepid trellis]

they can tune for pvp seperately which they already fcking do

[final holly]

You're so right and I hate that

[tepid trellis]

so thats kind of moot

its just stupidity

[vale pine]

well its more effort to do and maintain

[tepid trellis]

its not tho

[proper latch]

I think I sometimes get TFD by using Vanish in a dungeon

[tepid trellis]

its a one and done

in pvp let it have a timer

outside of pvp none

dont have to touch it again

[final holly]

Until the talent gets reworked again :)

[tepid trellis]

but i guess that one dev wont get his 5 min back

[quaint lodge]

Yea its a known bug, happens sometimes

[tepid trellis]

if something is fcking more effort to maintain its our fcking stealth code

but they dont seem to mind having to fix that every 2 tiers

so

[vale pine]

thats a diffrent beast

stealth is probably something that roots back to classic in implementation

[final holly]

Stealth is clearly a druid mechanic so that's why it gets attention I'm sure

[vale pine]

and band aid solutions ended up layered over it

so it has like 25 years of spaghetti code on top of it

and nobody wants to touch it because it breaks so many things

[tepid trellis]

scrap it

like subs clone mechanics

just get fckin rid of them

cuz they cant seem to get them to work

so

[vale pine]

i am with you

[tepid trellis]

im still waiting for my tier to work correctly

[final holly]

Send all the clones to the pit in rook 1st boss

Where they belong

[bright sundial]

and add death from above to pve!!!!

[tepid trellis]

no

no more buggy ass spells

[merry agate]

I for one really like Fatal Intent as a Talent.

Their early Ideas were a little too undertuned for my tastes, but when Fatal Intent came for Deathstalker with the rework, I think they really came into their own.

[north schooner]

just make sub a ranged spec where you send your clones to do shit while you sit back reading newspapers in undermine

[tepid trellis]

so you want do 0 dmg

cuz they cant fix clones in this game

nice

[honest brook]

xd

[vale pine]

we have dfa at home (coup)

[bright sundial]

true but i want everyone to see me dive into the abyss

[final holly]

Imagine the massive flashy animation they could have given coup given the giant gcd it has for some reason

[north schooner]

they will fix the clones in the major rework that is coming up soon :))))

i have insider info (my gut)

[wide kernel]

Am I misunderstanding something about coup or do we not get to optimize for it

I get it in cdr period and it's the worst feeling to have useless FF stacks

[lucid jackal]

At like 5 seconds before flag u can bp/rupture instead to have coup for cds

[swift tinsel]

Instead of having to remove the animation entirely because it locked you out of your abilities longer than it should have

[final holly]

Wait it actually used to have a cool ass animation and they removed it?

[lucid jackal]

What?

Coup has an animation rn

[final holly]

Aren't we just spamming backstab and not caring about overcapping CP that close to flag or have I been playing wrong

[stiff spear]

How are y'all handling Rik Reverb with the Evasion nerf? CDs after first amplifier? It really messed with my timings...

[final holly]

It does? I've never noticed it, I just hear the sound and get annoyed mashing eviserate just in case I get a late shadow craft proc

I also might have a different idea as to what counts as a flashy animation since I come from ffxiv

I have a lot of grievances with that game but the Devs at least knew how to make your big abilities look big

[lucid jackal]

I think it doesn't matter either way, just don't send coup

Literally just go to a training dummy

It has an animation lol

[final holly]

Like new Ret pally tier animation or just a slightly cooler eviserate

[lucid jackal]

Slightly cooler evis

[final holly]

[lucid jackal]

But I also, personally don't want rogue to have giant flashy particle effects around everything I do like paladin

[final holly]

Right putting it on everything sucks but putting it on something you do once every 30-40s goes hard

[real panther]

ok, hear me out: fuck tfd! That's all for me, I have no more arguments.

[slate marlin]

Ye for example secret technique animation

It should be better than 2 clones you can barely even see

[final holly]

I want the whole raid to know when I press sectech

[swift tinsel]

It didn’t for a while until they fixed the gcd lock issue, then it got a legit animation with 11.1

Personally I thought it’d be cool if Sectech looked like Contract where your shadow clones dash through targets

Instead of the lil purple poofs we have now

[final holly]

Oh true contract did look sick

[swift tinsel]

Or like d3 monk seven sided strike looking thing

[final holly]

Anyway, I think if you're a feast and famine designed spec which does all of its damage in a small burst window and no damage outside of it then it should look and feel awesome in that window. I swear cool animations go a long way to make games more fun to play even if they have no real impact

[left ledge]

We had cool animations with dfa

Then they deleted everything nice for rogue

Rogue is the red headed child ugly duckling type of wow classes

[lucid jackal]

Yeah I sure wish we had DFA as sub right now

Not enough suicide is enduced by Killing Spree

[left ledge]

They don’t have to be random teleporting animation locks

But rogue barely even has vfx

They even removed flag daggers for…. ???

[wide kernel]

Yeah it's also in the name... subtlety rogue, we are subtle

[left ledge]

Velf has more sub rogue like vfx than the entirety of sub rogue

[twilit phoenix]

Rogue should have the flashiest and most conspicuous animations in the game tbh

[final holly]

Being subtle outside of cds works thematically

But I think it's entirely fair to be very conspicuous while bursting

[north schooner]

change sectec to summon two t-rexes with lasers on their heads charging a gigablast on the target

[final holly]

Blizzard hire this man right now

[dry cave]

SFX r good

[pliant topaz]

u get a cool black shadow that melds into the background now until u dont notice it, but u know its there. very good change for sure

[brittle plinth]

can solve that with burst of speed 🙂

[astral narwhal]

Subtlety on the bottom of the meters 😂

[iron crane]

In pvp, are you guys generally in the bottom to mid part of the damage done levels? As a sublety rogue I've just always been in that area.

[worldly portal]

the good ones are just really hidden i swear

[iron crane]

Honestly thinking about switching to outlaw or AS to see if my dps levels would go up

[worldly portal]

what talents do you guys run when just doing outdoor stuff

[hazy breach]

Same as everywhere else really

[worldly portal]

which is what 😮 sorry

[lucid jackal]

Dungeon build, TFD

[worldly portal]

oki thank you c:

[pearl swan]

Forever

is there mouseover stuff u can do with outlaw?

[merry umbra]

what makes the sim decide to do black powder on 5t?

[warm marlin]

sim BPs based on the number of targets present with find weakness

[merry umbra]

i see, thanks

the sim always backstabs as first SD global, is it not worth entering with max CP to finisher first?

[pliant topaz]

didnt seem worth last time I checked. but also generally, you get 4 finishers 4 builders in dance, doesnt matter which order you enter (ignore the weird situations around shadowcraft refunds).

but since you can backstab first gcd (if you have premeditation), you get an extra dm stack on your first finisher, usually just more damage

[merry umbra]

gotcha, thanks

[tribal blade]

@pliant topaz are you back

is it happening

[pliant topaz]

o7

[tribal blade]

haha

[pliant topaz]

maybe next expac, we'll see

[fathom pecan]

has anyone experienced the first dance bug where you vanish mid pull in a key and you regain the first dance as its recharging up while you're in combat, been trying to replicate it and cant but accidentally did in a dungo twice

[lucid jackal]

yes

[fathom pecan]

have you tried replicating it somehow

[tribal blade]

wait until blizz bakes it into TFD

so then we run x2 vanish with TFD

[lucid jackal]

Doesn't seem consistent

[alpine wraith]

that happens in rookery

the bird buff messes up with combat mode

and if you exit combat it protects tfd

[fathom pecan]

it happened in theater for me just randomly in a pack

wish I had the log

[alpine wraith]

yea can happen in other places

same as first boss in grim batol

[fathom pecan]

yeah I was simply wondering if there was a way to make it consistent/if people have tried, if not its cool, been sitting at the dummies for a little bit but stop attack macros or anything don't seem to be working so maybe its doomed

[alpine wraith]

it mostly happens in dungeon i knew the rookery one but the ToP one no idea

[fathom pecan]

imagine if some toy did it

[round latch]

idk personally i find something fun when it is competitive but ye can understand the difference

[rocky ocean]

who would win, 100 sub rogues or 1 mythic mugzee

[pastel rampart]

who would win, 100 sub rogues or 1 balance department

[alpine wraith]

firs you would need 100 sub rogues

[pastel rampart]

34 and we count the sectech clones as extra rogues

[pliant topaz]

?? hows this even a question. not even 3900 sub rogues can win that one

[narrow shadow]

Hey guys, how accurate is Hekili for Tricks sub? Wanna try it on dummies to practice the rotation but not sure if it's exactly correct

[tribal blade]

well it's happening

[keen dome]

I've seen a lot of those appearing over the last month or so.

[tribal blade]

i knew this kind of stuff would start happening

[vale pine]

shroud is not that bad for speed

[proper latch]

Can you report this for advertasing? It's technically not a boost

[tribal blade]

nah i don't think this breaks tos

it's just more so the fact that boosting is gonna be WAY easier now with resil

and top teams are gonna have a field day selling their resil keys to sell title

which basically means it's gonna be a lot easier for people to buy their way to title

which is a huge problem

[proper latch]

At least you still have to play in title range keys

[tribal blade]

kind of

honestly not, you can buy your way through it

buy all 8 keys at title level at the end of the season

it'll cost a lot, but can be done

the hard part about selling title keys in the past was 1. having the key 2. actually doing the key

which meant the buyer had to have a certain amount of skill to help complete it

now with resil you can legit spam that key nonstop till you get it

before you had 1 shot with the key you had to sell

[proper latch]

Are those boosts rmt?

[tribal blade]

maybe some of them, not all

but they sell for a fuckton of gold

i helped sell 1 or 2 title keys during S3 of DF

you get huge cuts

[proper latch]

Like millions?

[tribal blade]

i can't remember the exact amount

but 1 title key was worth multiple millions overall yeah

divided 4 ways

[proper latch]

Tanks get bigger cut?

[tribal blade]

honestly not sure, but i don't think so

sometimes people do it so advertisers get an extra cut

since nobody wants to advertise ever haha

i would never sell a title key now though, it's unethical and pushes people out of title range who actually deserve it from doing the hard work

can you imagine being several points off getting title, and you were pushed out by people who bought it

which made your 3-5 months of nonstop key grinding completely useless

[final holly]

Is the title based on everyone else's score and not just your own?

[tribal blade]

yes

and it can only have so many people in it since it's % based

dude i met a guy once pugging title keys who missed the last title by 1 point lol

you should have heard the way he told the story in disc

and the suffering and pain in his voice

[short radish]

cuts are even

typically as well its the entire team doing the adv and boosting at teh same time

so its just split 4 ways

my mate was doing +10 keys w1 of TWW s1

each person made 2 gold caps in that week

[daring marlin]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/316923682607857685/1346745738532491296/New_Project.jpg

[verbal quarry]

yo

[rocky ocean]

[honest jewel]

if you are to boost a "title key" imo you'd have a team of friends.

[tribal blade]

when i did it i got brought in by the healer i ran with, who knew the tank who was advertising the sales

they do that vetting through circles of people you know yeah

[hidden spade]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[gritty knot]

That's going on for a while now with +15 and +16 keys. Although 10k is a joke. Most ppl advertising this take 20k 😂

[half remnant]

I'm thinking of a way to drop playing The Rotten on m+ keys. I dislike the talent. I'm thinking if there is a way to still apply Find Weakness on all targets in pack without it. I was leaning onto shuriken tornado with high enough crit might be a solution, where it would be used before shadow dance. Was someone there testing it or calculating it before? Tbh I'm just desperate to think something up, Sadge

[proven plover]

Just Take 1/2 finality instead if you dont like it

It Sims higher anyway

Or at least it was a couple weeks ago, you can resim it if youre curious

[half remnant]

I've seen the build the sim. I might run it later to test that, but almost all subs that are still on copium and are running keys are going with the rotten.

[strong sorrel]

there's nothing wrong with it

[proven plover]

You mean the tornado build? Ye theres like 1 person playing it

But a lot of people are taking finality instead of rotteb

Just the 1 point from rotten into 1/2 finality. There are places where rotten would be better but honestly Overall the finality seems to be better and it also Sims higher

[half remnant]

Could you send me who's doing that? I might have missed him

[proven plover]

Exxic

Ah wait nvm he is just running brew

https://raider.io/characters/us/sargeras/Spikè this guy is running tornado

[half remnant]

Ye I see, but he's dropping Veiltouched to grab shuriken tornado.

I thought you meant something else with tornado build

[tribal blade]

i wouldn't call running rotten copium

it's pretty good

[short radish]

no HoF

[half remnant]

I'm calling copium pushing keys as sub. It's not that spec can't push keys but getting into key is a lot harder

[tribal blade]

damn sorry man 😦

but grats on the kill!

[tribal blade]

OH right haha

yeah i dunno, it feels like using triple the amount of brain power for less results

when i can just play sin and mostly chill

[slate marlin]

every spec but aug can push keys, its about how much more effort both you and the party have to put to compensate

[half remnant]

I have the same sentiment. I firmly believe that any spec can get into title range with enough perseverance. That's why I'm bashing my head and looking into these talents just so I can help my team when I'm playing with them.

[tribal blade]

definitely can

you just go through hell to get there

if you're pugging

if you have a team it's not so bad

[slate marlin]

Oh yeah having a team is a lot different

[hardy snow]

The issue however is your team would also suffer from it if they are blinded and not picking an easier path where your spec isn't on it.

[grave shore]

@vale pine yo, brotha!! Hope u doing good!
Will u update ur sheet to new itlvl gear including new craft items?wanna see what us max dps in all new top itlvl gear

[half remnant]

I'm not talking about pugging since it's so rare for me to get invite that I throw a party everytime I get invite kekw

[vale pine]

wdym new crafted items?

you mean the new enchants from corruption

[alpine wraith]

with the +6 ilvl he means likely

[vale pine]

oh

true

[alpine wraith]

enchant is whatever just use void ritual

[vale pine]

i will re-run sims with it next week

so ye

[grave shore]

Ye I mean +6 and also corrupts , forget about it

[vale pine]

soon™️

[grave shore]

Btw any1 knows when dear dev or who doing class balance will open eyes and look at sub?

Floating around top 3 from below list feels sooooo bad

[keen dome]

Hell yeah, though. Congrats on your kill

[tribal blade]

i'm watching the rank1 russian sub on twitch right now and he's making me want to play sub in keys again

https://www.twitch.tv/salatikue

[pearl swan]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[keen dome]

He's so good

[tribal blade]

yeah his damage is really good

[keen dome]

I watch him occasionally and he's an artist on Sub.

[native hawk]

gz!! does hof not close next reset?

[tribal blade]

wish i knew what he's constantly yelling about

[short radish]

it does but we need to reclear OAB

[half remnant]

@tribal blade come to the dark side and play sub

[native hawk]

oh wtf I thouht they fixed that like a week after saying that people need to reclear last 3

[short radish]

apparently not

[tribal blade]

maybe in workshop or ToP 😉

might make a comeback

did a 16 workshop today, we got to the pack before last boss with 7 mins on the timer

the vdh pulls the pack to do the skip, we run past and he insta dies

then the healer gets aggro and we all die

[keen dome]

rip

[tribal blade]

we lose 2 mins on the timer to that

and the ret just leaves the group

AND the arcane mage said he was apparently bugged

and at that point was doing less than 3 mil overall

which is pretty bad

i dunno what game breaking bug arcane can get, but apparently they can

[keen dome]

Surely 5 minutes is enough to time it if people play well?

[tribal blade]

that boss takes an eternity, but maybe yeah

thing is we had 5 mins on timer and still had to wait for the rsham to ankh and res us

so that's what another 20-30 seconds

so we most likely wouldn't have made it

MAYBE if our arcane was doing real damage

but he was not

[half remnant]

5 min it's tight for that boss, it's save to do it with around 6 min left . You need to count RP into that boss also

[tribal blade]

workshop is kinda crazy hard

[tribal blade]

yeah it's really stupid how long that boss takes

[pastel rampart]

i love his stream description

LOL

[tribal blade]

workshop and rookery are the 2 hardest keys, with the 2 end bosses that take the longest

teehee

[half remnant]

I'm more angry about LoS on dog, it made this dungeon a lot time tigheter that it was

[random hare]

PRIORY EASY

https://tenor.com/view/aintnoway-gif-27058877

Who made that list

[tribal blade]

dude it's lowkey not that bad now!

[random hare]

[tribal blade]

well i dunno about anything higher than 16 lol

haven't touched 17 priory or higher

[random hare]

It’s like

The hardest key

Also my first 19 is a workshop

[tribal blade]

nice!

i actually don't know how this list is made

[random hare]

Workshop is not that hard

[tribal blade]

let me look

[gritty knot]

It seems 99% of arcane mages are bugged rn because they suck so bad that I was thinking about a Weakaura, which insta blocks mages in the que for my keys 😂

[tribal blade]

yeah this is a really common complaint about arcane atm lol

[random hare]

Tbh theres no S tier anymore

All dungeons arent free

[tribal blade]

how's 3rd boss in dfc

i watched yoda's group do it on 20

looks rough as hell

[alpine wraith]

candle king is no yoke

[gritty knot]

Ye and then my friend invited another mage and says "it's okay, he's fire, not arcane this time" and we go for Cinder and he literally does around 3m dps while me as sub and the hunter are around 5 mill overall 😂 I complaint and this guy is telling me that he does insane prio dmg. I look up the big prio targets and he's bottom dps 😂

[tribal blade]

lol ok the literal exact same thing happened to me too

in cinderbrew

but with an arcane

i hard gapped him in prio, it was actually kinda crazy

[gritty knot]

As assa ?

[tribal blade]

yeah as sin

here it is

[alpine wraith]

that is tragic

[gritty knot]

Assa just insane in some dungeons rn. But since I only push 16s, hardly 17s and I started playing with druid tank, monk dps, resto shaman and warri dps as sub lately I kinda have fun again in keys

[gritty knot]

😂

[jaunty heath]

Can you show singular focus

[tribal blade]

i'm in the same boat as you, i'm on getting the last few 16s done

[jaunty heath]

That would be interesting

[tribal blade]

nah don't have details for it anymore 😦

and i don't log

[jaunty heath]

Sadge

[tribal blade]

i'm curious as well, i bet it was pretty high

relatively high

because i was playing bleed build for that

[vale pine]

nice

[short radish]

holy shit blizzard is so fucking stupid lmao

drop rate for famed items can be a bit tricky

absolutely no way

(someone else submitting bug ticket for HoF)

[tribal blade]

LOL wtf is a famed item hello

you know pre legion i would have rated blizz's customer support a 10/10

they were so, so good, they were always super helpful, kind, and i never once had a bad interaction

legion onwards i would rate it a 2/10

[short radish]

actually just run by chat gpt

[short radish]

honestly

i'll take typos

[tribal blade]

oh no that wasn't the worst part

[short radish]

means theres at least some monkey behind the scenes

[tribal blade]

true lol

but i did everything on the checklist for this person and it wasn't working

i dunno who i was talking to in which third world outsourced county

but it was bad

and yeah now it's just fully automated, it's hopeless

[keen dome]

It's not an LLM. it's just a template form shit and it's one big centre microsoft send them all out to

It's not even automated, 'cos that's more expensive than the way they do it.

[tribal blade]

makes sense

[keen dome]

If you keep sending a ticket it can eventually go to one of the few remaining CS people at Blizz but lmao

[tribal blade]

the mage in my guild got his spark eaten

and they refused to help him

[keen dome]

Microsoft gutted all of Blizz's stuff and shifted it to their universal one they contract.. I don't think it's India but they have this huge CS group they use in one specific country.

[tribal blade]

they sent him more of that copy pasta shit

[keen dome]

And a lot of Blizz stuff got sent there so 99% of the ticket responses are copy/pasted template things.

[tribal blade]

it's horrible

it really sucks because their CS used to be top tier

[keen dome]

Bring back the days of Blizz wanting Hotel level customer support teams.

[tribal blade]

they actually cared about the game

[keen dome]

When they had all of the stuff in Cork

[tribal blade]

dude it was so good

[keen dome]

A good buddy of mine was a GM back then and the way they handled it was super interesting

And it's a tragedy how little Microsoft care

[tribal blade]

i'm not over exaggarating when i say i never had a single bad experience with a GM from 2005-2017

[keen dome]

Yeah, same. I even have had good experiences through to DF

It's between late DF into TWW that it's gotten really terrible

[tribal blade]

yeah it's awful now

[keen dome]

You can get through to an actual CS agent as Blizz still has a samll amount (Like the fraud team / cheating team / botting teams still exist iirc)

If you keep sending a ticket and it gets elevated.

[tribal blade]

the last time i was trying to figure out wtf was wrong with my game not connecting

[keen dome]

A lot of the punitive stuff is now fully automated though, but that's been a slow progresss ince late SL. but now it's got some real weird shit.

[tribal blade]

i seriously considered quitting wow or going casual because of how little help i got

[keen dome]

It's very frustrating

And the worst part is it isn't an expensive area relative to how much of a positive user impact it has

But lol capitalism gonna capitalism. The enshittificaiton much continue!

[tribal blade]

you can never under estimate how much companies are willing to screw over people to make more money

[keen dome]

Duolingo is a good example in how they made something like a 43% profit year-on-year and are now sacking 95% of their staff to replace with LLM's

Just immense, disgusting greed.

[tribal blade]

there's this absurd notion that your profits are supposed to increase every single year

which is impossible

you can't just have never ending increase in profits

[keen dome]

Yep

Revenue at Duolingo in 2024 was up 41% on 23 to $748M. Net income was up by 451% for same period this was it.

[tribal blade]

so any time a company has less profits than last year or quarter they start freaking out

[keen dome]

Even if they have more profit that qaurter they'll fire everybody

Microsoft reported record profits for the gaming stuff and then fired like 300 people

[tribal blade]

that's so sad

[keen dome]

Capitalism is nonsense. It is a race to make the maximum income at the mininum expense regardless of the quality of the product. Hence: Enshittification

[tribal blade]

people do be losing their minds over money

[keen dome]

Hyper rich need another super yacht

[vale pine]

it is the problem of opimizing shareholder value

[keen dome]

Absolutely

[vale pine]

it is also a general us problem, which could long timer cause issues for them

[keen dome]

Yeah

[vale pine]

also

https://arstechnica.com/ai/2025/05/time-saved-by-ai-offset-by-new-work-created-study-suggests/

[keen dome]

Ye, it's such a worthless piece of technology in 99% of circumstances. To the extent that it is actively dangerous in how some organization are using it.

Drives me mad

[vale pine]

for what its worth, companies found that the speedup in programming is offset by 2-10 times the cost long term to fix problems it created