subtlety

[kind bluff]

My guild keeps telling me to play ass cause it's "better dps" but my performance on sub is beating 99.9% of ass rogues. Idk if I could beat my sub numbers as ass at all.

[keen path]

Nah tell your guild to do more damage

[young mural]

Would you mind telling me what the fuck is PRD

[sullen hare]

Personal resource display

[young mural]

Yhea seems sus, guilds shouldnt really be telling you to play a certain spec because it does more damage when the gap isnt even there to justify it

Sub isnt too far behind sin

But also you for sure can do same damage as sin, i used to be a one trick sub, decided to test sin out and its waayy easier than sub

You for sure can learn it

But it should be your decision, and play whatever you want to

[indigo steppe]

Then they're gonna yell at you for not switching on rik lol

I think non rogue players have no idea how rogue works

[young mural]

Ah nice, ty for answering my basic question

[young mural]

For sure they dont lol

Thats why I didnt even try to play sin in rik

[indigo steppe]

People always tell me in keys and stuff like oh why do you care about uptime you have your dots

It's like yeah my rupture gonna do crazy damage lol

[young mural]

Just went sub and held shadow dances for barrels and exploded them

[indigo steppe]

Same I pad the absolute shit out of barrels hahaha

[young mural]

INSTANT SHADOWSTEP into those 3 barrels that are close together lol

[indigo steppe]

Sub feels so good on rik I evasion his first slam to get full opener

Makes me feel like a gamer

[young mural]

Yoooooo

Evasion works there?

[indigo steppe]

Oh no my parses are in danger hahaha

[young mural]

I wasnt aware, thought it was magic stuff

[indigo steppe]

Yeah when my guild was progging it I was like surely some experimenting can't hurt

I do the same thing in vault keys too lol best way to learn is just trying shit hahaha

[young mural]

Nice

[young mural]

True

The amount of times ive turnt on cloak and prayed is crazy

Might be my favorite activity

[kind bluff]

I lost my r1 myth rik parse. But yea it's a great fight once you learn the timers to be able to line up your big sectec with adds every time.

[paper iron]

that s the most accurate thing i ve read in this discord. Guildies asking me to "just hold killing spree". Well no i just respec then i m not gonna hold killing spree. Or on gally "u need to do more damage on adds", yea sure i ll respec sub and lose all my boss damage to do p1 add damage if that s really needed, but that s the tradeoff i wont swap target as assa

[limpid sage]

What are you fellas simming on ST

[indigo steppe]

i think especially in m+ lol sometimes i have people be like yooo let the rogue restealth tank

and im like nah bro ur good

the rogue spec with the stealth icon actually doesn't benefit that much from restealth

[paper iron]

well

fun fact

sub is the one that benefit the most from restealth currently imo

the first dance is really really raelly good

but still, gaining, let s say, 5% damage on rogue instead of chaining and get everyone else more dps

is just slower

[hazy breach]

Well ye but first dance isnt really restealth

Thats the problem

[paper iron]

i like so much whispyr command for that

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1140296738385707079/1357138542920208425/image.png?ex=680b7583&is=680a2403&hm=034717207381d47ff9457053aba8c6d3988c9920b30483b28cb8a5bde34d8ce2&

now i can call them all bad tanks

even now as assa i ve many friends asking if i need to restealth and i ve to explain to everyone that s it s good qol but not gonna change my damage by more than 2%. Just gonna add 40s to the timers for fun cuz we gonna lose ignite / barrage proc / bloodbeast / boomie rotation. Like just nah dont let us restealth i beg it s not TBC it s fucking TWW now

but u know, rogue shroud is op and rogue is the king of cc in their mind still

[hazy breach]

Shroud very useful YEPYEP

99% of all mobs see stealth

So its just mind soothe, except it has 3 min cd instead of 20s

[indigo steppe]

i rat TLD so hard

[tepid trellis]

they need to get rid of that shit

let rogue have atleast some niche

[hazy breach]

Its assa only, but pretty sure iron wire is slept on

If it wouldnt cost dps to talent it im fairly sure it would be nerfed to the ground

Because being able to silence for ~17 seconds per stealth charge is insane

[crystal bone]

the silence alone is busted ye

[paper iron]

i mean i dont like shroud being op, like HAVING TO have a rogue to do a key is as bad as needing a priest to mindsooth or an aug

you know

[crystal bone]

then theres DR

[paper iron]

but now they just killed it way too hard

delete the spell already

so we got less prepull in raid

[young mural]

I disagree

No way

I know what whispyr says

But a assassin restealth is so nutty

[paper iron]

it is not

it s just quality of life cuz people hate reapplying dots 1 by 1

and yea it s a bit more damage for you, like really tiny bit more, but at the price of all other's damage which is nuu guud

[void ocean]

what does sub get from restealth?

[wide kernel]

tfd

[void ocean]

thats not restealth, thats restealth + eternity

[wide kernel]

you're out of combat while stealthed no?

[void ocean]

you are but that time is not always obtainable

[wide kernel]

yeah its not about always having it

[void ocean]

assa mid pack vanish and voalla everyone has bleed, try doing the same as sub, vanish then run out of the pack and sit for tfd

[wide kernel]

i like to vanish when a mob is like 6% hp

you might not always get your tfd but at least its a decision you can make

and lets be real, the real reason people don't let you restealth is out of ignorance 100% of the time

[void ocean]

i mean, i get what u r saying but lets not pretend that sub with tfd restealths would turn into an unh

thats probably the main reason ppl dont give af

[wide kernel]

i mean it matters

[void ocean]

true

[wide kernel]

mastery from flag lasts 24 seconds? 26?

[void ocean]

difference is palpable

[wide kernel]

you can make an argument where you spend 3 dances inside of flag buff not 2 at that point

tfd also makes it a lot easier to not screw up your rotation

oh wow were a month out from being able to purchase hoc :/

[void ocean]

cant wait

but heroic hoc 😄

maybe mythic with a bit of luck

[wide kernel]

welp time to go buy mythic bandit

[vale pine]

the first dance, but you need to be out of combat for longer

[livid girder]

96% mastery 19% vers, would u go for specific vial or chaos?

flask*

[paper iron]

they pretty close, with these stats i ll go vers cuz it s cheaper, but it s probably within the marging of chaos

[honest brook]

you have to killed bandit on mythic to buy hoc?

[swift tinsel]

you can get hero track from any difficulty below mythic

[honest brook]

i see

[swift tinsel]

my guild is now suddenly considering CE

having never gone above 4 mythic bosses in any tier

[vale pine]

vers flask and chaos is both fine

[keen dome]

Hero track from killing Bandit on heroic, specifically

[wide kernel]

mythic hoc, yes

[swift tinsel]

"Heroic gear but will require the associated boss to have been defeated at least once in any difficulty to purchase Hero track gear"

[keen dome]

Oh, my bad. I missed that bit.

That makes it even funnier

[swift tinsel]

all good, its a bit of an odd way to iterate it

not sure if I'm the biggest fan of the changeup from previous dinar systems

[keen dome]

It's just more "fuck you if you don't raid mythic"

[swift tinsel]

yeah

sales are gonna get a nice boost

[keen dome]

Yep

Good game, blizz

[swift tinsel]

my guild is thinking the extra upgrade tracks are going to carry us through to mythic gally

and pretend we didn't wipe to vexie bc of poorly handled mechanics for half an hour

[paper iron]

i mean

it will help

not about doing mecanics proprely

but dodging last sets of mecanics on every fight

which means less room for mistakes

[swift tinsel]

Lol that's why we're learning some of the heroic ones in mythic

our guild isn't the most mechanically-sound so their solution is usually just overgear it and don't worry

[paper iron]

it s the way of lot of guilds actually so nothing suprising

[swift tinsel]

idk its annoying when people are still figuring out how not to laser the raid in mythic cauldron

[random hare]

SUB ROGUE IS BACK

[slate marlin]

What was the 3rd dps?

[random hare]

NEW BUG INFINITE DPS

[sullen hare]

New bug = have an Augvoker? Lol

[alpine wraith]

big blaster

is aug back in town?

surely you run shaman anyway

[random hare]

nah aug isn't back

[random hare]

forgot to run first dance

would've destroyed the dk

[slate marlin]

delete zeross

devs might see that

and skip subt buffa

buffs*

[swift tinsel]

bold of you to assume any were coming

[twilit phoenix]

idk about you, but I've certainly been coming

[sullen hare]

We'll get our yearly +10% damage buff to black powder don't you worry

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/darryl-the-office-darryl-philbin-the-office-yay-yay-gif-yay-gif-25696872

[alpine wraith]

dont worry guys i got jastor this week

im going to blast those 8 10s

in like monday or tuesday

[twilit phoenix]

grats hachadino

[alpine wraith]

they will tremble at my prowess

[twilit phoenix]

you're literally the goat

[alpine wraith]

tbh the weeklies i do are funny

in rookery

sometimes i do like 3.9m

and second one is like 2.8

but other times everyone does like 3.2

damage eating really does happen

[sullen hare]

My monk is sitting at 665 with an lfr mr. Pick me up. Feels bad man

What's it like getting cool rare items

[rough rivet]

@vale pine could you renew the sims in your sheet pls? most of them are old and have been removed 🙂

[lilac stag]

What do you need to know?

[paper iron]

Bis profile setup i assume

[rough rivet]

yeah, thats what i wanted to know

[hazy breach]

Why

[lilac stag]

bis is useless

top gear sim + droptimizer

[rough rivet]

i know that. was regarding what to use catalyst on. dont want to sim 457 variations if theres a sheet that tells me what the optimal loadout would be

[swift tinsel]

there's a bunch of 'bis' setups

so its effectively useless

plus optimal is relative

to your gear

[lilac stag]

Catalyst is going to depend on your setup. Typically we avoid tier gloves

As you gain ilvl, ver, crit & mas start becoming interchangeable.

Catalyst is minimal aim
Options. Just run top gear and add the catalysts

[vale pine]

i removed some that timed out, i re-run these profiels atm ^^

[cloud rover]

Is there a list for Mug'Zee Jails escapes?

Like, how classes can get out?

[hazy breach]

Maybe on the raid leader discord or something

But rogues cant get out without velf

[cloud rover]

Yeah i know that, im jsut curious.

[cloud rover]

Ye that was it

thanks

[proven plover]

War within was all along an analogy to how things are going internally at Blizzard, judging by the recent changes and reverts

[paper iron]

outlaw maybe can

still dont have the confirmation since it never happens, but i guess grapple could work

[pallid hollow]

can anyone give/link the target number wa pls?

[haughty mural]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[haughty mural]

There it is

[cloud rover]

It can, but im sinner man

[sick jackal]

do we want the new proc champion items?

[hazy breach]

Nop

[pallid hollow]

many thanks

[keen yew]

today i used all my acquired knowledge here to present you with the most prestigious reward one can get :

[steady timber]

The important thing is boss died

[fallow nimbus]

That's only an achievement if you didn't die

[keen yew]

spitting fact, i indeed cheated!!!

[supple verge]

So how much ya think a mythic OAB kill will run ya

[swift tinsel]

couple mil prob

idk what the rates are anymore

[supple verge]

I mean that's like the price of some shit myth boe off the AH

So ig if you're gonna buy anything you buy a carry for the dinar

[hazy breach]

Question is if you need to kill OAB or if gally is enough

[swift tinsel]

would be nice if it was like vault but I'm not holding my breath

[rich crystal]

Quick question, in m+, during the pull, should I focus on dotting every mob before popping SD + Symbols? Or just high prio targets
And if I should dot every mob, how many combo points should I use per Rupture cast?

[alpine wraith]

they said need to kill 3 in the same week

so might be some funny moments

of thug zee reprog

into not getting hall

for some guilds

[hazy breach]

Generally dont delay your flag/blades

But if its a non-flag pull then yes you'd apply rupture to most things before dancing

Things that arent absolute shitters

[rich crystal]

Ok gotcha, and should I just do backstab -> rupture -> backstab -> rupture, or should I dot with more point

On a non flag pull

[swift tinsel]

if its aoe use shuriken storm

[rich crystal]

Yeah true, I forget to use that too often

Thanks guys!

[hazy breach]

If theres 3 or more targets you should always storm over backstab

(still strike over storm though in dance)

[rich crystal]

Oh so always strike in dance?

[alpine wraith]

only storm once if you are going to bp after inside dance

like 7+ targets

[rich crystal]

I see

[gritty knot]

I just checked out of curiousity and it's 15 mill on Sylvanas 😂😂 ye. Fk that Dinar shit then I guess. All dreams of having mythic HoC trinket crushed in an instant 😑

[hazy breach]

Tbf the difference between hc and mythic isnt very big anyway, it mostly just feels bad

[lucid jackal]

Heroic to mythic is like a 10k diff or smthing

[gritty knot]

I mean ye. I am used to it. I had HC Transmitter whole of the last season

[hazy breach]

Its like 0.3% or so ye

[gritty knot]

I just cant get myself to mythic raiding again. Too much pain

[serene notch]

@hazy breach do you plan on posting any runs this season on YouTube?

[kind bluff]

I've pugged through rik, working on stix. I need to just find a guild.

[hazy breach]

Atm im not doing any runs, so idk

I dont currently have a team and pugging is just queue simulator even at 15s

[alpine wraith]

time to film those weekly 10s

so people can admire your prowess

[hazy breach]

Ima be real i kinda cba doing those as well

[alpine wraith]

i just log in and do 8 rookeries

log out

[hazy breach]

The only thing i would want is pacemaker for assa but ideally they just buff sub and then i probably wouldnt be using it anyway

[alpine wraith]

i got M pacemaker in vault

didnt even notice the diff vs drink

but it should be good

and now i sleep

[slate marlin]

What 2nd trinket you using on sub eleem?

[hazy breach]

Hc energy drink or kezan

[tranquil garden]

hc mechano core amplifier is surprisingly great according to all the sims I've done anyway

if you're lucky enough to get one

[lilac stag]

Mechano is like a 10k dps loss compared to energy drink

[little thistle]

Is there any guy like Simonize from wow classic on wow retail? Also the discord? Im new to retail

[hazy breach]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[lilac stag]

wtf is a simonize

[hazy breach]

A dude making guides for classic rogues

[lilac stag]

[serene notch]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/43?boss=12773&class=Rogue&spec=Subtlety&metric=dps

Can someone help me understand how damage rankings work? It’s not just highest damage order.

[hazy breach]

It goes by key level

[serene notch]

Key level then damage?

[hazy breach]

But m+ logs are also a bit weird, since your overall damage varies a lot based on what route or what party you have

[serene notch]

💯 but over a big enough sample size I think it can give you a vague idea of what your range ideally should be?

[molten citrus]

the vast majority of people doing m+ don't log their keys

[serene notch]

Yea, but without anything else it’s hard to gauge how well/bad I’m doing

People who log are probably a self selecting group to be sure

[molten citrus]

there's just a lot of factors that make it weird

you can be anywhere from like 2m to 5m overall dps

depending on gear/dungeon/comp/route/etc

[serene notch]

I just picked floodgate as a random example, based on my key levels I do (10s) I would be doing well if I hit 3 mill or so.

It’s just enjoyable to shot for something vs being absolutely crushed by a ret pally.

[orchid osprey]

Hello, I have a problem. I'm with a subtlety rogue at level 70 in Dragon Flight and my equipment level is 285, very low. I'm trying to do missions to get equipment, but I can't do missions because I always die. How do I solve this?

[vagrant sinew]

you can buy green boes on AH

theyre not cheap, but not that expensive

[orchid osprey]

What are gren boes?

[molten citrus]

queue timewalking dungeons to level

[orchid osprey]

In Legion? But I don't need to level up. I need equipment to be able to do missions.

[edgy zenith]

if I press sectech outside of dance and then press dance before clones hit, do clones get damage amp?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[wide kernel]

There' a huge variance. I did a priory at 660 ilvl or so and got 3.5, but the rest of the group was cracked and we 3 chested it.

I did a priory with a good group recently and got 3.30 while massively messing up.

I did a priory after that and did really well, while everyone else in the group was sub par and got 3.30 again.

Raid buffs also account for north of 20% of your overall. There are just so many variables to account for tbh

[molten citrus]

then you're probably stuck buying gear off the auction house dunno

[dry cave]

TW should give you decent gear drops that are level scaled no?

[molten citrus]

leveling to 80 would also make the missions easier

[trail bison]

you get like satchel gear from timewalking

but i forget if that stops at 70

[orchid osprey]

I don't have the expansion, I'm playing Dragonflight and I have 5000 gold, the character is new

[molten citrus]

oof

[orchid osprey]

If I do the Legion dungeons, will I get better equipment?

[molten citrus]

ye

might take a while because they aren't guaranteed drops

but you'll be able to get drops of lvl 70 gear

[wispy bolt]

!WA

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[viral phoenix]

what do you guys think is better on OAB sub or sin? does sub blow up on the certain ad sets matter as much anymore?

[hazy breach]

Sub does more add damage

Sin does more boss damage

Its way more likely you wipe due to lack of being able to kill the adds in time

A lot of people have started opting for a different strat than what rwf used so they dont get the CC immune adds at 1:40, which was one of the main reasons to play sub on this fight, with that gone its probably kinda whatever what spec you play

[orchid osprey]

Damn, I made one and they already gave me a 400 helmet. I had a 140 one.

[vagrant sinew]

go turn in the quest you got and theres a vendor there that also sells gear

dont know what ilvl that gear is at lvl 70 but cant be that bad

[orchid osprey]

Ok, thanks, if the team is 400 it's much better than mine.

[wispy bolt]

doing m+ 14-15 getting gapped every key feels so bad 😦

[swift tinsel]

this ddos shit is getting annoying

jfc

[bleak night]

yeah im really glad im not gonna get a vault because of this at this rate

was on alt for stix and now we cant finish reclear because of the servers

huge

[swift tinsel]

we have a few people from Area 52 and they're just completely unable to play a full fight

Ghostlands too a bit

but yeah same boat no myth vault this week

[graceful rock]

bro we killed stix and ddos started

[bleak night]

we killed it between the first dcs and the second ones lmao

yup no vault for me bc ddos very cool

[kind bluff]

Skill will make up the difference, If you are better at sub you can beat assassination on almost every boss, if you are better at assassination then you can beat sub on almost every fight.

[lean steeple]

noob question but is this talent the one that ****regenerates combo points to full after using a finishing move?

I'm trying to anticipate it happening because I accidentally press a builder when my combo points regenerate

[lilac plume]

Yes, fills up while Symbols is up

[lean steeple]

is there a way to track it?

[tribal blade]

hello fellow bleed sin rogues

i mean sub rogues

[still quartz]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[still quartz]

yes you can track it

[honest jewel]

Had zero issue on eu. Or maybe been lucky with times playing

[solar geode]

I forget what the command is but there are a bunch of wa packs that show the shadow technique charges, and a separate one that goes "chk chk" whenever shadowcraft happens

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[solar geode]

there you go

[shadow lance]

Wait, packs got a tracker of the number stored? I was just using the sound one

[worn ivy]

Any good new trinket ?

Sims out ?

From the event

Anyone got any idea ?

[alpine wraith]

all shite

[keen dome]

They cap at champion so they are worthless

[brisk onyx]

[worn ivy]

Any reason wep master sims higher for me in d/slice

[alpine wraith]

tfd only gets procced once in dslice

usually you get more procs on dungeons so it is always better

[worn ivy]

Ty

[wicked urchin]

anyone else still in the no HoC club?

[keen dome]

probably a lot because loot rng in wow is dumb

[tribal blade]

i am the biggest genius in the world

i lost my mark flying up to the last boss in ToP because the tank pulled trash and i got in combat

had no vanish charges to reapply it

[wicked urchin]

We don't do heroic main raid anymore either

[tribal blade]

when vanish comes up on the boss adds are out

[wicked urchin]

And our optional night has...10 people

I'm SOL boys

[tribal blade]

AND I FORGET TO USE AMBUSH DURING VANISH AND DON'T REAPPLY MARK

i'm a legit genius

[shadow lance]

Why you playing assa?

That's the question

[tribal blade]

because it does so much damage

i haven't done much pugging this season because i'm pushing with a team, and we're a bit behind

[shadow lance]

Not sure about it on ToP tbh

[tribal blade]

but i spent some time pugging 16s today and people have been very impressed with sin dmg

sin still does a lot of dam in TOP

not quite the best ST yeah

but you make up for it by destroying aoe packs

[shadow lance]

Sin damages are big, yes. Bit I don’t think I do more as sin than sub on top

[tribal blade]

i haven't play sub in a while in ToP so i can't say for sure

but i believe it

[shadow lance]

Maybe pug doesn't help having an objective view of it

Only pugging 14-15 atm

[tribal blade]

the routes people are doing now focus more on doing as little ST as possible

so skipping both mini bosses before xav

it feels like the key is going slow when you're playing sin until you get to the aoe portions of the dungeons

esp the wing leading up to kul

and you just mow it all down insanely fast

and make up the time there

not sure what it'll be like on anything higher than a 16 though

[shadow lance]

Issue with sin, is that I find it a bit boring

And I find pugging boring also

[tribal blade]

i think bleed sin is my favorite iteration of sin in M+ ever

[shadow lance]

And I don't have team

So, playing sub, doing weeklies

[tribal blade]

bleed sin right now does really good aoe

you can perform on par with boomys and udks

[shadow lance]

Ikr

Bit still boring

[tribal blade]

i beat a boomy in a 16 rookery today

and he said "how tf did i get beat by a rogue"

[lean steeple]

tyvm

[shadow lance]

"Get good"

[tribal blade]

haha yeah actually the tank said "good rogue"

[shadow lance]

At my key level, I'm almost top meter each run

Playing sub or sin

Just people are bad

[tribal blade]

i should try playing sub again in workshop and top

yeah in 14-15s atm you don't exactly get stellar players

[shadow lance]

But in 16, I bet it's not every keynyou're first

[tribal blade]

seems to depend

but in a lot of em i am

this was 16 DFC today

that's all the screenshots i have from today

btw arcane funnel is fucking busted

"can't have sub rogue with good funnel, it breaks the game"

meanwhile arcane exists

[shadow lance]

Blizzard logic

[short radish]

surely you play sub in top

[tribal blade]

nah just been playing sin in all keys

sin feels mostly fine in top

i think workshop sin doesn't exactly feel very strong at important areas of the dungeon

i do want to try using sub again in both those dungeons

[vale pine]

nice, big damage

[tribal blade]

ty!

i'm really hoping to see some sub tuning

[limpid sage]

hi

yes and it's disgusting how few have dropped

[fair anchor]

I am there still and I gave up.

[lean steeple]

why is priory trinket c tier for sub rogue as per the wowhead guide? its a massive burst of secondary stat

[zenith prism]

don't line up with our 1min30s cooldown

2.4m ST dmg on 3rd boss in workshop

[final holly]

2 min cd

[lean steeple]

riiight

so good

[final holly]

Functionally a 3 min cd

[sly shore]

so terrible

sub is a 1.5m class

not 2m

[vale pine]

how do i get a meow guild or similar?

@sly shore

[sly shore]

join the server by clicking on it

and then it pops up with the box to show it

[lilac stag]

@tribal blade we managed to get Stix down during ddos attacks. Had roster roulette for who was actually able to stay online long enough.

[limpid sage]

Anyone know what the biggest contributors to dps variance is? Trying to figure out if I've gotten worse or just giga unlucky

(not accounting for specific boss mechanics)

[alpine wraith]

a combination of crit sht rng and some trinket rng

[tribal blade]

nice!!

i was in a 16 DFC and the MW was like "i'm at 150 ms, blizz is getting ddosed"

thankfully we only had the last part of the dungeon left to do and nobody dc'd

now you can go on to locken hell

and watch people completely unable to handle the tiniest shred of personal responsibility

[lilac stag]

Our specialty. Avoiding personal responsibility.

[limpid sage]

trinket rng? (nvm remembered that HoC has an rng component)

[tribal blade]

it's just one of those fights where when you mess up you inadvertently kill people around you

OR kill the entire raid

[lilac stag]

we did decently well on princess

So I have some hope

[tribal blade]

so long as your raid can read the WAs for the fight well it should die fast

WAs hard carry that entire fight

[wicked urchin]

we've had lots drop i just haven't gotten any because my guild rolls for loot smile

which is absolutely fucking cursed btw

[tribal blade]

oh you mean like doing the last reclear before locking out on bandit with your guild and they roll off myth track boots which your boomy wins who isn't even in for prog over you

smile

[wicked urchin]

yikers

[tribal blade]

best part was i hadn't won loot from raid in something like 2 weeks

and he had won heroic jastors the week before

also to a roll

[wicked urchin]

Last tier I think I won a single piece of loot?

Literally

[tribal blade]

and the person who rolled 2nd highest was someone who's in for every boss

[wicked urchin]

Only loot I got was when nobody else needed

[tribal blade]

damn now THAT is cursed

[wicked urchin]

I was the only person without sikran neck

[tribal blade]

we at least do loot score

[wicked urchin]

And to make it worse we're a RWL guild

We gave the first HoC to our rogue trial his first week

smile

[tribal blade]

LOL

[fair anchor]

As last season i made WAs that were just an arrow with LEFT and RIGHT written on them for my guild, i dont have much hope

[tribal blade]

i wasn't even eligible to roll on HoC

[wicked urchin]

I rolled second highest

smile

[tribal blade]

because of transmitter

[tribal blade]

hahaaaaa

[wicked urchin]

only had heroic transmitter because I switched to sin

[tribal blade]

i actually rolled for fun on HoCs that dropped on 1st and 2nd week of the raid

[wicked urchin]

i just want the season to be over so i can move on somewhere else

[tribal blade]

and i won both rolls

[wicked urchin]

cursed

[tribal blade]

but couldn't win

i'm at least having fun in M+

this season is actually pretty good

raid is fun too

[wicked urchin]

it's also painful losing it to someone when it's only a 0.3% dps increase for them

that's also great

or when they have farmable alternatives

idk what rank to shoot for when i app

[tribal blade]

my RL doesn't believe that you not having farmable alternatives is enough to give you higher priority on HoC

which i think is wrong

but what can i do

[wicked urchin]

it's 100% wrong

very least i'm gonna aim for top 400

hof would be cool but still slightly out of reach i think

next expac surely

[tribal blade]

i've had opportunties to go to HoF guilds but decided not to

[wicked urchin]

i work weekends so i have tons of free time

would be nice to do once at least

[tribal blade]

my guild has gotten a few HoFs and it is a massive rush

[wicked urchin]

i was creeping a bunch of lower hof guilds and logswise i'm sitting equal or slightly better to quite a few

not that that means a ton

im also a gamer tho

checking and i've only had one prog death so far

on cauldron lmfao

[haughty mural]

[wicked urchin]

how often do they discount race changes?

[alpine wraith]

not often

but they may do one now that they need to pad the numbers

[wicked urchin]

oh

its literally discounted right now HAHA

i swear i did not see any announcement about that

[fair anchor]

Non-ethical subs padding hahaha

[wicked urchin]

go on

[crystal bone]

another class bug hotfix post, another ctrl + f rogue disappointment

[low arch]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[haughty mural]

You mean the zen flight thing ?

[crystal bone]

i mean there are no rogue bug fixes in this

[alpine wraith]

it is mandated by law that our tiet sets have to be bugged

unlucky

[crystal bone]

im rerolling arcane mage

[alpine wraith]

it is very fun

your abilities are not split in 2 3 or 6 numbers

for no reason

[sly shore]

DH hero talents break for a day and they are fixed

[alpine wraith]

hunters talent broke a whole evening

code red

also the mage bug with splinters was funny too

[crystal bone]

rogue bugs tho

we maybe fix those by accident on expansion releases

[alpine wraith]

they did go on a fixing spree once this expansion

our job here is done woosh

but first lets buff assa

and nerf outlaw

fuck them

[twilit phoenix]

Holy based

Outlaw should be hardcapped at 5

[alpine wraith]

that is blizz take on us

also for sub just in case buff builders nerf finishers

oh your spec is going to have good burst with tier set

ahaha no

nerf 3 times

then also nerf the spec

but now builders have more crit dmg

[vague schooner]

what exactly is bugged about sub rogue?

[alpine wraith]

4 set more often than not decides to not apply its buff to sec tech

[twilit phoenix]

So sick

[crystal bone]

sectec misses on rookery first boss

[vague schooner]

so i shouldnt use it when boss is in the middle?

[crystal bone]

ye

[vague schooner]

[crystal bone]

when u get full uptime on the boss

do not use

[vague schooner]

can i look up how often this happens in details?

[hazy breach]

Not easily no

But it only works like 1/3 of the time

!bug

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[hazy breach]

You can see the spreadsheet for some more

[crystal bone]

is the log bug not on blizzard's end?

with carnage

[hazy breach]

It is on blizzards end yep

If the person logging is more than 100 yards away the game doesnt know who the clones belong too

So it just assigns them to nobody

[vale pine]

its a very old issue and people don't understand it

i had a lot of discussions around it

[crystal bone]

didnt feel it was relevant enough to add to the bug list then?

ahh

[hazy breach]

Probably

Its been a thing since sectech was implemented too

We had the issue on dathea in vault and again on ansurek

[vale pine]

it is a once per xpac, maybe twice problem

[hazy breach]

And now on carnage

[vale pine]

its only 15% dps

not a biggie ^^

[crystal bone]

[hazy breach]

Its not a bug, but the way sectech cleaves around the target so you cant hit both while theyre in the middle on carnage feels frustrating as hell to me

When nimble cleaves just fine

and spatter too

[vale pine]

you can just log yourself tho

so the issue is easy to fix

[alpine wraith]

dont worry it also happened in dres tagath and other bosses

[vale pine]

i am with you on cleave too, it is weird that it does not work on carnage as you would assume it does

[crystal bone]

if u had to ballpark a % damage increase if all bugs on the list were fixed, what would u guess?

[hazy breach]

I mean some of them are positive

[vale pine]

most bugs are not that bad

[alpine wraith]

the DS bugs are annoying

[hazy breach]

But the deathstalker ones are big

[alpine wraith]

but also one positive

[vale pine]

tier set bonus not working correct is probably a bigger one too

tfd related bugs can have dps impact

[hazy breach]

Its like 1% or so, if the 1/3 figure we got during ptr still holds

[crystal bone]

yea i noticed no tfd bugs on the list

[alpine wraith]

tfd is just super pasta

i wish you could just reset it with vanish or each x dances

or something

like a normal human though talent

instead of what we have

[vale pine]

haha ye, it just is annoying

[hazy breach]

The deathstalkers mark and darkest night ones are probably the biggest

If the mark bug wasnt there we could always guarantee 2 DNs per dance

[vale pine]

deathstalkers mark is 3% iiirc?

[hazy breach]

Back then yes, but should be more now

Since we can easily hold symbols+dance

Until we get DN

[vale pine]

oh ye, because of tier set too

[crystal bone]

ouch

[hazy breach]

Then go Dance > Strike > DN > (have 2 marks) > get another DN in dance

And obviously darkest night buffing eviscerate by 60% rather than by ~45% would be big too

[alpine wraith]

with tfd you might get 3 even

ah that one too ahaha

[hazy breach]

Na you need all 8 seconds

[alpine wraith]

tfd is 12

[hazy breach]

Yes

[alpine wraith]

hmm guess not enough

if only our lord and saviour MFD came from retirement

[hazy breach]

I mean maybe with blades

[alpine wraith]

sometimes i wonder what their idea for sub power in subterfuge would be

[hazy breach]

But i was mostly talking about the non-cd dances

[alpine wraith]

yea even non cd ones getting 2 DN evis would be kinda good

[limpid sage]

Deez nuts

sorry

[alpine wraith]

dont worry you cant right now

just to make no double nutting allowed

[tribal blade]

it's truly the end times for sub when i come in here and it's DS sub talk

[slate marlin]

well hero talents are the only build variation sub has so

[tribal blade]

the most cursed build variation

[slate marlin]

Why

its only bugged, boring, has no cdr

But its purple

[alpine wraith]

and it has a wet fart execute part

you liberate some gasses to do 0.1% dmg when mob gest to 20% hp

[tribal blade]

it's hilarious that ability still does no damage

[haughty mural]

Id rather slam my head against the desk than doing DS

[tribal blade]

i would be so happy if they reworked DS

[worn ivy]

in reality i should do more overall compare to sub as outlaw

[tribal blade]

not gonna happen, but would be cool if they changed how the mark worked

[worn ivy]

but im doing more than outlaw

hows sims work i dunno

i sim 4.5 with outlaw

4 with sub

i dont get it

[tribal blade]

outlaw has quite a high skill ceiling for damage iirc

very common to screw up globals or miss gcds

which has a snowball effect on the rotation because of how the cdr works

[worn ivy]

i think it also depends on dungeon

there is no way outlaw beats me on ML

with 2 damage amp bosses

[tribal blade]

sin is also very good in ML

[worn ivy]

i dont consider that as a rogue spec

[tulip gorge]

it's funny how there is this civil war in the rogue discord

[tribal blade]

i would normally agree but the bleed build is mega fun

[tulip gorge]

where assa and outlaws players hate each other

while sub is just chilling in the background

[tribal blade]

haha dw most sin and outlaw players hate sub too

whenever sub is meta there's a collective meltdown of sin players

[tulip gorge]

they hate it when sub is the strongest spec

[tribal blade]

since sub is the arcane mage of the rogue class

where most people will only play it if it's the absolute meta spec

[tulip gorge]

well blizzard is doing their best to make sure assa is the best spec

[tribal blade]

yeah they really are

[tulip gorge]

they nerf sub and buffed assa at the start of the patch

I was actually looking forward to sub being the meta in m+

[tribal blade]

i knew it most likely wouldn't stay meta

even if it wasn't nerfed

very hard for rogue to be the pinnacle meta spec unless it's turbo broken

[patent crystal]

how much was the nerf total?

where would we be if they didnt nerf?

[tribal blade]

not a huge amount

[tulip gorge]

imagine if they kept the tier set stacks at 10

[tribal blade]

the issue was that people knew sub would get outscaled eventually with gear

so our damage at the start of the tier was kinda all front loaded

but apparently blizz had 0 clue that would happen

[tulip gorge]

if only blizzard could timegate nerfs just like they timegate content

[tribal blade]

that's not the worst part

the worst part is they literally buffed all the underperforming raid specs last tuning

EXCEPT sub

sub was literally the 1 spec out of like what, 5-7 at the bottom that didn't get touched

[weary jacinth]

Surely next tuning right guys?

[tulip gorge]

yeah but that would mean they have to admit nerfing sub was wrong

and that's not going to happen

[tribal blade]

my cope is surely they can't just leave us down at the bottom with aug

but who knows, history is very telling with blizz and sub

[tulip gorge]

my cope as well

next tuning we should see sub buffs

[tribal blade]

hopefully

but i'm not falling into the trap of expecting them 🙂

[tulip gorge]

imagine they buff black powder

and we have to play DS

[tulip gorge]

well I don't expect anything any time soon

MDI is going to happen soon

[tribal blade]

every time they buff BP everybody thinks we need to play DS but everyone just ends up still playing trickster haha

[tulip gorge]

if I had to guess it will just be a 2-3% aura buff

or maybe a buff to sec tech

[tribal blade]

this is the point at which you expect the over compensation buffs

i would hope

but we're not mage

so that's not happening

[tulip gorge]

nor boomkin apparently

[tribal blade]

yeah exactly

[tulip gorge]

I'm still in disbelief they kept blood beast as it is

[tribal blade]

they did "nerf" it

by a tiny bit haha

[tulip gorge]

that shit needs to be aoe capped

it's not like unholy's aoe is bad without blood beast anyway

[tribal blade]

they don't like messing with the meta too much

[tulip gorge]

unless assa is not the best rogue spec

[worn ivy]

btw in keys i start play more arround coup and 4 set i can say its not worth

[tulip gorge]

then we need emergency buffs

[worn ivy]

unless -15 sec

for flag

[tribal blade]

yeah it's definitely not worth overall

you lose a lot of dam trying to min max it

[tulip gorge]

wait so you can just send eviscerates?

even if you lose the tier buff before flag?

[tribal blade]

that's the only time it's worth doing rupture stuff to hold stacks

for solo dances it's not worth

but i think overall it's like neutral to rupture before flag to keep stacks or just ignore the tier set

[hazy breach]

Its even better to not send rupture either

[tribal blade]

oo is there new tech

[hazy breach]

Not really new no

[tulip gorge]

is pooling a thing now or what

[hazy breach]

No

[tulip gorge]

then what's the tech

[hazy breach]

Slightly better to just not finish when theres 10s or so left on flag

[tulip gorge]

so afk for 10 seconds?

why?

[hazy breach]

Not afk

Just dont finish

Its like 1 or 2 backstabs at 7

[tribal blade]

ahhhh interesting

[tulip gorge]

https://tenor.com/view/why-huh-but-why-gif-13199396

[hazy breach]

Why not

You get more sht stacks, you wont lose tier

And the rupture is gonna get refreshed right after flag anyway

[tribal blade]

going into cds with high sht feels very good

makes sense

[tulip gorge]

I guess

[hazy breach]

and your flag wont be ready when youre at like 3 cp

Which would waste cp anyway or delay flag

[tribal blade]

that's sometimes an annoying situation yeah

when flag just comes off cd but you have like 2-3 CPs

[rapid kite]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[short radish]

when was the last time sub was meta in keys

[hazy breach]

DF S1

[short radish]

man that feels so long ago

wait

was it even meta?

i dont recall it being that super amazing then

[hazy breach]

I would classify being used in the highest keys as meta

[short radish]

true

[haughty mural]

dont have the gif to show you how it was back then

😦

[lilac stag]

https://giphy.com/gifs/btqU9V0Z48j3in2xBu

[haughty mural]

that is now Scath

https://tenor.com/view/world-of-warcraft-gif-27554945

there it is

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/forever-johnny-orlando-blur-song-lifetime-until-the-end-of-time-gif-25852574

[limpid sage]

How much better are we talking?

[hazy breach]

Dont remember but not much, so like 0.4% or something i guess

[odd knoll]

!tricks

[wicked jolt]

Smart tricks WA on tank, this require the following macro:

/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 1
/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 0

[lilac stag]

We’re so back!

[vestal escarp]

[swift tinsel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/316923898501529600/1365042674842992660/9l2o5h-ezgif.com-reverse.gif

[limpid sage]

Was that with additional conditions like nearly overcapping on SHT stacks and SD cd management?

[final holly]

Does anyone else pool energy before SD if they're not playing with a shaman? I might be hallucinating it but I swear I can run out of energy in SD windows without a shaman

[lilac stag]

you play assa without a shaman

[warm depot]

you suffer without a shaman

[crystal bone]

cant even play the spec without a shaman

truly dooming times

[lilac stag]

I love losing 7-8% st dmg not having a buff

[chrome palm]

are these small rotation rules enumerated anywhere for reference?

[vale pine]

its in the apl and could be in optimization sections of guides

[chrome palm]

ty

[thorn oxide]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[alpine wraith]

y we kinda talk about it sometimes

same with holding coup

just some things

[fallow nimbus]

man, why aren't the log rankings updated when the log is better now? first my gally mythic firstkill log was a 87, then it's a 19 and now it's a 50 with 11.1.5

but the 19 is on my page

[alpine wraith]

they dont lock until after a certain time

[fallow nimbus]

yeah but they should update to the current best standing, in my opinion

like those 100 logs that got it because noone killed it yet then next week 1000 blasters overtake them but they still got their 100

it's kinda there already

[viral phoenix]

whats the optimization with that? small gain to hold coup for dances or what

[alpine wraith]

yea

you just dont finish same as with before flag

[viral phoenix]

is it cause coup strikes like 3 times that can pop tier

[alpine wraith]

i dont remember how much you could hold but it is very comfy getting 2 coups in dance

nah it is mainly because of flawless

think like 10 secs should be fine

does not happen a lot

[viral phoenix]

ok so not finishing 10 seconds before flag is a small gain and not finishing while coup is up outside of dance is a gain? for both if you're holding for 10 seconds its fine but longer than that and its wrong?

[dry cave]

holding combo before flag is a dps gain for me because i only have the entire burst sequence in muscle memory, not parts

click flag + no points = mental block gg

[worn ivy]

+17 WS deplete by 10 sec

i dunno

i did 3mil cannot do more

maybe its the route

or i guess im bad

............ like i dunno legit didnt even delay

2 death run 1 time dk 1 time boomy but still

how we so behind

on timer 6min last boss

last boss should be 5:30 max

[haughty mural]

hard to tell wasnt there

[alpine wraith]

unlucky crits

[warm veldt]

KUJO feels so ass as arcane, can't imagine how terrible it feels as subtlety

[wide kernel]

Shaman is like 8% ST in Sim. Shaman + monk + warrior is 18%

[livid girder]

it feels like im losing tons of damage spreading rupture on literally every mob in a pack we are fighting, how mandatory is it to have it up on everyone? or how many targets should I keep my rupture on?

[wide kernel]

You're suppose to spread rupture until everything is grouped and then go Into dps window

[livid girder]

and if it's grouped almost instantly?

4-6 targets then go into dps?

[warm marlin]

depends on key level

[wide kernel]

The point of doing rupture is that's it's a dps waste to go Into cooldown windows because you won't hit everything

[livid girder]

this was in a 9, in the end it felt like I really overused it

[wide kernel]

Rupture is a dps gain outside of windows and a loss inside them

[warm marlin]

depends on your other dps, but in a 9 you are likely better off going into dance asap

rupture will only really be good if you can put out ruptures and then get your full cds off

spending 5s after grouping spreading ruptures is very bad if the pack then dies 5s before the end of your cds

[wide kernel]

In 9s sub won't do well because tanks don't know how to pull mobs

[livid girder]

alright alright

and one last but not least question, kind of stupid to even ask, but just to be sure

[wide kernel]

What's your overall though

[livid girder]

if there's more than 1 target, we use ss to generate combo points, right

1.82, was 648 ilv

[wide kernel]

What dungeon

[livid girder]

rookery

I died a lot, healer ignored me on like 2 - 3 packs in a row

[wide kernel]

That's fine

[livid girder]

also uhm, my trinkets are quite not optimal

and about the ss, is my statement correct?

[livid girder]

^

[wide kernel]

I usually do it on 3 or more

[livid girder]

so below 3 its backstab primary target?

[wide kernel]

Either or tbh shuriken is also used as a gap closer if you have to move out of circles

Do you know to apply FW through the rotten with storm for your aoe opener

[livid girder]

I do now

[wide kernel]

Your opener looks like the one on wowhead?

[livid girder]

not quite sure

in a dungeon atm

dunno whats the one on wowhead, i checked method

[wide kernel]

A few things are wrong with it

The method one

You are not suppose to use flag with blades, blades is just before sectec because you waste premeditation.

[worn ivy]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2442655275 any good rogue can review maybe i might to major mistakes maybe i wanna improve really important

i dont have logs aperently

[wide kernel]

Symbols isn't suppose to be chained atm. It goes symbols + dance and then dance and then symbols when sectec has 9 seconds remaining

The point of that is to supercharge every sectec

[livid girder]

before sectec?

[wide kernel]

Secret technique

It's also just better because of flag ramp

[livid girder]

okay could u give me the opener rq?

[hazy breach]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals of during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[livid girder]

oh okay, thank you

[worn ivy]

@hazy breach maybe u can review when u have time

i would like to improve

[livid girder]

there's nothing before flag? no shadowstrike nothing?

or can I just get into pack with shadowstrike and follow the opener

[final holly]

You want CP before flag

[hazy breach]

Im intoxicated and on a train home so now is not the time

[paper iron]

🥺

[wide kernel]

He did 3.4m on a mechagon 17

[void ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/fear-and-loathing-in-las-gif-14410133

[wide kernel]

(From stealth) -> SS -> flag -> rupture

So your goal in that is a few things, SS gets you to the target and more importantly applies find weakness, 10% debuff

Rupture is free flag ramp

You go dance and symbols to crit backstab from the rotten to apply FW again which also builds a stack a danse macabre

Also if your numbers seem low at the start that's because sub is really hard to do well with, there's a LOT you can mess up and it's very punishing if you do

[livid girder]

fun part is I've been a sub main the whole SL

just only pvp, came back to this lord forgotten alt

and was completely lost

[tepid trellis]

[worn ivy]

PEAK SUBTLETY GAMEPLAY

do u do review ? @tepid trellis

[tepid trellis]

nop

[worn ivy]

maybe u can do when you bored

[tepid trellis]

i wont get that bored soz

[wide kernel]

Get a warrior

[worn ivy]

[wide kernel]

I refuse to do keys without a shaman and a warrior

[worn ivy]

i know sham buff is big

but warrior also ?_

[wide kernel]

Bro why do people not know this

[worn ivy]

there is no sims

[wide kernel]

Monk + warrior + shaman is 18.5%

[worn ivy]

chart or anything

[wide kernel]

Shaman is 8% of that

In ST

[worn ivy]

if i get monk has to be heal

monk tanks are garbonzo

[wide kernel]

Yeah

Warrior is good though, it's much just a 4th dps

Vdh isn't bad btw it's like 30k or something for sub

But warrior is like 90k for me

[worn ivy]

than its gonna be like VDH - MW - ARMS - SUB - ELE

or

[cobalt vector]

Thats no brez

😄

[worn ivy]

we have

cable

[wide kernel]

Cables

Arms is ok

[worn ivy]

what about guardian tank instead of vdh

[wide kernel]

Maybe even good but idk how it holds up against dk in high keys

[worn ivy]

is it more dps or less

3% versa right,

[wide kernel]

4?

[worn ivy]

i dunno i remember 3%

[wide kernel]

I made a bunch of comps but I don't think I have it anymore

Most of the good ones start with prot warrior

Arms is OK tho I just don't do 17s I'm a 13s pleb

What I will say is shaman healer is like bis shaman if survivability is a problem

[random hare]

guys

[worn ivy]

than u play without monk

[random hare]

im sad to announce

that sub is officially worse than assa on all keys

even with skyfury

surely we get a buff one day

[wide kernel]

Yeah. I settle for warrior and shaman or monk and warrior if desperate

Monk isnt bad though it has a good profile, ele shaman is just squishy and needs help

[wide kernel]

Top?

[worn ivy]

i dunno whats the best comp for sub right now ? i need official

[random hare]

yes sin in ToP

sin in workshop

sin in rookery

i need to check maybe sub for last boss only not sure yet

[worn ivy]

you can 3phase

as sub

even on +18

[random hare]

yea i know

[warm marlin]

either pwarr, boomie, enh, sub, mw or gdru, fury, enh, sub, mw

[simple saffron]

how big is the difference between deathstalker and trickster in m+? I miss using shuriken storm and black powder as trickster

[wide kernel]

Trickster uses shuriken and bp

[worn ivy]

what if we had old set bonus with this ilevel

im 100% sure sims higher

or maybe

i dunno man at this point i dont even know what do we need to be viable again

[simple saffron]

yeah but isn't it only in like mass aoe? when I pug most of the time my tanks are not pulling alot lol

[worn ivy]

Im pretty sure even outlaw bette than subtlety

How important skyfury for outlaw btw ?

U can go without sham comp

As outlaw probably

[wide kernel]

What leads you to this conclusion? No good sub parses in high keys or you beat all you sub parses as sin?

[wide kernel]

Sub is just kinda rough in low keys in general but tanks are always rng

[random hare]

like

i did play sub abit badly last time like i missed a cb or 2 but like

other than that i played perfect on that key cuz i was abit rusty didnt touch it in weeks

it does like

way worse than everything

less st than sin rogue

less aoe

only burst

like

I DONT EVEN KNOW

WHY

SIN HAS MORE ST THAN SUB

????????????

[wide kernel]

The narrative I keep hearing from a lot of people is sub is better st

[worn ivy]

Good question

[random hare]

and sub ONLY does more st wiht skyfury

[random hare]

AND

IF U GET A BAD KILL TIMER ON SUB

WITH SKYFURY

ITS AUTOMATICALLY WORSE THAN SIN

LOLOL

[random hare]

im doing 1.7-2m st on sin

its legit sub dps

and

[worn ivy]

Why envenom does morw damage than evis ?

[random hare]

i do WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more than sub if there are adds

[lofty lance]

2m ST on assa?

[random hare]

ye

[worn ivy]

Bleed build

[random hare]

u wont hit 2m only with supercharger

[worn ivy]

Probably

[random hare]

and lust

nah

lmao

bleed build does negative st

trash ass build

sucks

[molten citrus]

[worn ivy]

U still play kingsbane in keys ?

Havent touched assa since s1

[lofty lance]

idk they need to revert the tier set nerf

or just buff abilities

[random hare]

ye always kingsbane in high keys

legit mandatory to play it