been learning sub rogue for the first time lately and this about how i feel so far (positive)
#subtlety
warped swan
warped swan
this sub rogue shit easy as hell
jaunty heath
During stix I thought next boss is better just get through it
Now Iβm on said boss and I wanna end it all
fallow nimbus
It's all downhill from there
honest brook
need some help if anyone know, my Nimble Flurry dmg compaire to other subs in TOP dung have vast different (lower) i checked some subs Nimble Flurry of them was highest their dmg then sectech any clue ? whatswrong
paper iron
highly depends on key level i'd say
wide kernel
does FW apply from nimble flurry?
paper iron
that s a 17 tho
tepid trellis
does FW apply from nimble flurry?
no
honest brook
that s a 17 tho
thanks, mine was 13
honest brook
that s a 17 tho
one more thing have 11k versa and 20k mastery you think should i use versa flask? i know i have to sim but wanna know your opinion
and is 11 k vers is huge less ?
paper iron
i think you should sim yourself i m not a robot sadly
but you fine
as long as you dont enter DR territories vers is super giga fine
honest brook
thanks m8
wide kernel
at about 22.5k mastery and 17.5k vers they are about the same or very close
wide kernel
is there anyway to stop thistle tea from automatically using itself?
tribal blade
i love that blizz thought they were helping the playerbase by making thistle tea proc on low energy
when in reality it just makes everything so much worse
north schooner
they could've made it a choice node like with ele's earthquake
pastel rampart
are these talents ok?
dawn summit
MfD we miss you...
red cloud
MfD we miss you...
Bro missed the most boring button 
blissful gale
sullen hare
dfa can stay in the garbage bin
keen path
Me and my mate have noticed that details doesn't show the correct damage for Black powder on the meters, has anyone else noticed this?
sullen hare
As long as it's up to date details should be accurate but it's going to combine damage sources like how warcraftlogs does
keen path
It's up to date, basically when I hover over the meters and it shows the mini breakdown, its got blackpowder, but then when I click on it for the full breakdown its got black powder but with more damage
like its missing the shadow damage part from the meters but not the breakdown when you click on it? if that makes sense?
sullen hare
Got a quick screenshot to show what you mean?
The shadow part is usually a purplish bar
keen path
Yeah but how come on the normal meters it doesnt have the shadow part included?
Oh nevermind I am stupid, if i hold shift while hovering it has all the spells and the shadow BP is lower down xD
Ahahah nevermind me guys xD
wet lava
does FW apply from nimble flurry?
wait at 5+ its bp over evis?
worn ivy
Bro missed the most boring button <:PogO:1160145144872435792>
Most skillful button.
molten citrus
wait at 5+ its bp over evis?
If all targets have FW on them BP is basically neutral to use in 5 is what I understand
But is a gain on 6-7+
wet lava
whats fw, sorry to ask is it fazed or ?
molten citrus
whats fw, sorry to ask is it fazed or ?
Find weakness
wet lava
tyrty
tribal blade
it's just more worth to press evis at that point over bp because you get more prio
hollow spear
The age old question of overall vs timer
grave scaffold
!SHEET
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
stoic spire
Got a question regarding aoe(lets say between 3 and 7 targets) outside of cooldowns- should I be using backstab for all the trickster effects it provides or shurikens as a generator? Or it is more like press backstab every couple of shurikens? What about during dance? Is it shadowstrike all the time and shurikens only once as a 2nd generator after pressing symbols?
odd knoll
outside of dance u use shuriken as builder. when flawless form is up u use evi as spender up to 7 targets
if flawles isnt up use bs to proc flawless form
if there is 1 target use bs as builder ofc outside of dance
stoic spire
if flawles isnt up use bs to proc flawless form
That part explains a lot, thanks!
stoic spire
outside of dance u use shuriken as builder. when flawless form is up u use evi a...
so if I dont have flawless form, my last backstab did not proc it and I got 7cp is it better to black powder instead of evi?
stoic spire
Yeah- that is clear, my question were about more than one target π Thanks for all the help
onyx parcel
!wa
wicked joltBOT
gritty knot
you let your heart choose
Or Hekili π
alpine wraith
lul
placid wasp
not sure im understanding this correctly, why is it sometimes my combo points will refill to full after a spender?
rocky ocean
World of shadowcraft
round abyss
Hi all - may be a stupid question, but the blue combo points, do they count as 2? so if i have 3 total cp and 2 of them are blue, does that mean i have 5?
vale pine
not sure im understanding this correctly, why is it sometimes my combo points wi...
shadowcraft refunds combo points if it can fill up your bar.
It is only active during symbols of death
vale pine
Hi all - may be a stupid question, but the blue combo points, do they count as 2...
they count as +2 to your next finisher
so if you finish with 5 combo points it counts as 7
round abyss
okay, thanks @vale pine
vale pine
well +3 actually, but same concept
the amount of points you have just shows you how many times you get the benefit
quiet harness
Think we will see some positive tuning for this spec before end of season?
hexed bluff
Think we will see some positive tuning for this spec before end of season?
Never π
rapid oasis
Hey guys, quick questiona bout Sec tech and cooldown management in general. I know the general rule of thumb is to only use sec tech when shadow dance is up, but I feel it usually comes up a bit more frequently than shadow dance. In those cases, do you just send it with symbols of death or hold till shadow dance is up again?
old venture
Think we will see some positive tuning for this spec before end of season?
before the end of the season? probably there's still 2 patches supposed to come before 11.2 so you never know
will it be a meaningful tuning? probably not 
the usual blizzard slap an aura buff and call it a day
rapid oasis
damn you guys are so doomer about future prospects
void ocean
Hey guys, quick questiona bout Sec tech and cooldown management in general. I kn...
u can send it if u r gonna get it back for the next dance
tho not many of those cases
round abyss
i must be doing something wrong though, i feel i can get at least one sectech in before my next window of SD
vale pine
before the end of the season? probably there's still 2 patches supposed to come ...
corruption will make everyone better ^^
void ocean
corruption will make everyone better ^^
u sound like government π
old venture
corruption will make everyone better ^^
oh no
we're gonna get spammed with hacha "max eviscerate crit" memes again
vale pine
na
its like this
think of corruption
then take away everything fun about it
by nerfing it to the ground
thats what we get
basically corruption was fun for those who like it
(i mention this because from what i know corruption caused one of the biggest known player drop)
but it was fun because it was a end of xpac system
you could give everyone absurd power from it, and it would not break the game
a tank outperforming most dps?
round abyss
are you talking about the BFA thing?
round abyss
i LOVED Corruption, i hated the fact it was allowed in PVP though
paper iron
Allo, fuu have u made the 5+ target bp thing with rotten into wowhead or it s still only in tc in here?
round abyss
now that dreamworld bullshit, hardpass.
vale pine
Allo, fuu have u made the 5+ target bp thing with rotten into wowhead or it s st...
i did not change it on wowhead because tracking find weakness on multiple targets is difficult
rocky ocean
I like how people are so eager to pad with bp
vale pine
but i could make some adjustments to the guide, might look at doing so tomorrow
back to corruption
the problem we have in this patch is
there is still a new raid in the near future
so you can't give people a huge power creep system
this is why all of the corruptuion was nerfed
heavily
round abyss
is sub not in a good spot right now?
paper iron
i see, that s true tracking fw in aoe this way can be complicated and should probably be a part of advanced in a guide like wowhead one. Ty for the answer 
vale pine
is sub not in a good spot right now?
depends what you mean by good spot
round abyss
a servicable spot.
vale pine
the spec is not competing with the "good dps"
but its not bad
so kind of "good enough to be played"
"but not tuned high, so there is not a lot of incentive to play"
round abyss
makes sense.
honest brook
you just play assassiantion
sadge
vale pine
thats basically tuning 101 for the 3rd season in a row now ^^
neverless
subtlety is fun, and some fights its better
better does not mean you need to play it, but you can
round abyss
sub feels a lot more interactive than assasination.
honest brook
sub feels a lot more interactive than assasination.
exactly
vale pine
assassiantion is the best on mugzee
swift tinsel
I play sub bc its fun and our raid isn't passing or failing fights bc of the spec I play
vale pine
i would argue to a degree you might need to play it on mythic
due to execute damage being so important
vale osprey
subtlety is fun, and some fights its better
I fully recrafted my gear etc and went Sin and we're now on OAB and the adds are needing some extra spice, back to sub I gooooo
round abyss
need to play assasination or sub in mythic?
vale osprey
But as you've just said we're just about to hit P2 so Assa execute gonna be big and I'm top boss dps
paper iron
exec mug boss damage π
vale pine
raid --- sub maybe on 3rd boss
crystal bone
which spec would u guys recommend for sprocket prog?
round abyss
are stats the same for assasination and sub?
vale pine
guilds did buy gally lockouts
vale osprey
gally sub is better
Really? I thought sin overtook it recently
rocky ocean
exec mug boss damage π
Itβs so cursed to not see arms be top in execute
swift tinsel
you can time your burst for add spawns and nuke them into oblivion
vale osprey
Didn't blizz remove them recently?
upper narwhal
HoF should require a kill on every boss
vale osprey
Or did it just close HoF
paper iron
i dont think that s true now fuu since with bonus damage + gear + nerfs made burst less requiered. But i'd say mostly it goes by "assa = boss dam, sub = burst and add damage", on every boss you can apply that to yourself and think about yourself what your guild really needs
vale pine
the point i was making was, the last fight is not that difficult
which makes the spec you play less relevant
paper iron
Itβs so cursed to not see arms be top in execute
he probably died or missplayed tbh, we went into last part of the phase only once so he might have been a bit overwhelmed π€·ββοΈ
vale pine
towards relative performance
mythic statistic has subtlety as the worse spec atm
ignoring aug
sterile kiln
as long as I'm top 3 dps in my guild as sub rogue I won't reroll assassination 
alpine wraith
yea i also join lfr sometimes to feel powerful
feels good not being in always show me
oak grotto
How would you sim for Mythic Cauldron? Is it Patchwork or Light movement?
alpine wraith
no reason for it to not be st
vale pine
^ just patchwerk
paper iron
cauldron is patchewerk with like 15s of cleave every 70s
vale pine
just make sure you log yourself
paper iron
something like that
vale pine
we had a heated discussion recently
because the log did not show secret techniques damage
paper iron
Akaari's soul be pumping 
vale pine
due to how far the bosses are away
swift tinsel
I log 100% of the time just in case lol
vale pine
and people are not capable to understand how this impact output
even if you say "its 15% dps missing"
upper narwhal
MM hunter flamed me for being low on the meters cuz he was other group, sent him my log as no.1 ez dunk
swift tinsel
plus I look at them after every raid night so I like handling all of the logging
vale pine
i just mention it
because it is a problem people mention every time there is a spread fight with a bit further spread
where damage of akaaris goes poof and is not assigned to you
and most wow players are not able to understand that
and 15% is a lot of diffrence
vale pine
so it can easy cause to conflicts in your raid
when people complain
so rather log yourself ^^
vale pine
neverless, to not sound too negative
subtlety is perfectly find for middle of the pack expectations
and thats enough for everything you can do in the game
oak grotto
I feel like while Sub isn't on the same level as Assa for example
How hindered are you by playing Sub instead of Assa
vale pine
I feel like while Sub isn't on the same level as Assa for example
well, assassiantion was buffed by quite a bit ^^
swift tinsel
I like doing really strong burst and when it lines up with add spawns or vuln phases (or I can make it line up) its very satisfying
round abyss
i think we can all agree.. outlaw shouldnt exist π
swift tinsel
if we got a couple buffs to our burst, I wouldn't be mad
vale pine
How hindered are you by playing Sub instead of Assa
you are not hindering, as mentioned the only fight you might want to go sin is mugzee
oak grotto
Absolutely, but I also feel like while Assa may be stronger, that doesn't mean you automatically fuck yourself by olaying Sub
vale pine
outlaw is actually in a good spot
oak grotto
Exactly
vale pine
but nobody wants to play it
oak grotto
So I feel like people put too much effort into what is better
round abyss
i know it is, i jsut dont feel like a rogue playing it lol
vale pine
the assassiantion buffs probably take away reasons to play outlaw tho
swift tinsel
I just don't vibe with the playstyle of the other two specs
which is fine bc sub does everything I want a spec to do
vale pine
same, i am a sub boy^^
round abyss
@swift tinsel i do agree, when the stars align, the amount of dopamine i get on pulls is insane
oak grotto
Is Sub the weakest out of the three specs generally speaking?
swift tinsel
Unless I get effed by shadowcraft I'm usually top on pull for first minute or so by a good margin
round abyss
yes.. that first 60 seconds is bliss π
swift tinsel
and when I get good rng I'm ahead by a mile
rocky ocean
Is Sub the weakest out of the three specs generally speaking?
No
Outlaw is meme tier in keys
swift tinsel
Outlaw is good in raid
and not bad in keys
it just loses out as you get higher up and its relative weaknesses become more apparent
vale osprey
Problem with the whole sub Vs sin thing for me isn't even necessarily power (ok it kinda is buuut), it's mainly about the "do I want to play a spec that has to wait 20 seconds for my CDs etc to align or do I want to play a spec that has to pool for 20% of the fight"
vale osprey
it just loses out as you get higher up and its relative weaknesses become more a...
And it's ungodly punishing to play
oak grotto
I think it just becomes to when do you wanna become strong
swift tinsel
because mistakes on sub are quite detrimental too
oak grotto
They work in different intervals so therefore it is to me atleast, if you wanna play on a 90sec interval or 2min interval
basically
vale pine
Is Sub the weakest out of the three specs generally speaking?
it always comes down to tuning, currently would say both outlaw and sub are similar with assasisantion stronger
swift tinsel
if you scuff your flag/blades window by misusing sod/dance between it craters your damage
vale osprey
because mistakes on sub are quite detrimental too
That's true
swift tinsel
sin's damage doesn't suffer from the same level of misplay
vale pine
Problem with the whole sub Vs sin thing for me isn't even necessarily power (ok ...
I think thats in part why they tune assassiantion higher
assassiantion has a simpler rotation, and is due to that more acessable
so you can capture more players by making it the best in most cases damage wise
swift tinsel
idk its hard not to sound gatekeepy or elitist, but having the simpler spec(s) be very strong or the strongest feels a bit meh
swift tinsel
for sure, its a good way to get people engaged with a class/spec
chrome quiver
how do you guys sim for m+
vale pine
and for blizz
chrome quiver
is there a scrip or do we just do dungeon slice
vale pine
if we look at growth
alpine wraith
dungeon slice for m+
vale pine
they aim at player retention rather than onboarding new players
alpine wraith
but use it for choosing gear not thinking you will do that dps
leaden prairie
because mistakes on sub are quite detrimental too
its more about it being impossible to do everything right/not losing uptime rn
vale pine
so if they can keep a bigger part of the community happy
by making the easier specs stronger,
they have found a sustainable strategy
leaden prairie
with mistakes costing you quite a bit
swift tinsel
for outlaw?
leaden prairie
ye
alpine wraith
yea in sprocket using ks
leaden prairie
in term of adr uptime
swift tinsel
I could def see it
alpine wraith
costs a wipe
vale pine
subtlety is also quite swingy
all your damage is during cooldowns
and as such, having critical hits will impact your output
can swing quite a bit pull by pull
crystal bone
would u say parsing well as sub is very dependant on boss kill times?
assuming u play perfectly
vale pine
depends on the boss
a kill time short to your cooldowns is benfitial
its similar for assassiantion
having the boss die after your cooldowns is ideal
and not shortly before your cooldowns come up
swift tinsel
you're competing against a handful of sub one-tricks a lot of the time
leaden prairie
I could def see it
i think in m+ its quite relevant, like i see a lot of specs that are able to just go out of aoes and sit afk for 3/4s
outlaw cannot do that
you know what i mean
swift tinsel
yeah that makes sense
vale pine
for fast kills, if you kill bosses incredibly fast, it becomes relevant too
swift tinsel
if you can't stealth to pause adr you gotta keep spending to reduce the cd
leaden prairie
ye otherwise eveyrthing can fall appart very fast
vale pine
for mythic+ it is also about damage outside of cooldowns
swift tinsel
ye its kinda annoying that everything hinges on that
that's one of the reasons I'm not a big fan of the playstyle
paper iron
outlaw is just rigged for m+, the spec should be able to work with like 80% uptime
but it s not the case
alpine wraith
do you have to like save a vanish for interphases that dont let you hit?
paper iron
so you re fked
vale pine
the first dance is the newest spell they designed for subtlety
leaden prairie
that's one of the reasons I'm not a big fan of the playstyle
idk it was easier with acro 
vale pine
so its state of the art
alpine wraith
state of the bug
leaden prairie
now i think outlaw is kinda impossible to play right in m+ unless you are a one trick
vale pine
which means, someone at blizz thought it would be "interessting" and "fun" to sit in stealth for 6 sec
paper iron
i just stay away a lot to get tfd
paper iron
i sometimes even vanish out of the pack to start tfd rolling
swift tinsel
I honestly don't play around tfd but I'm not pushing so its kinda w/e
paper iron
at the end of it ofc
hazy breach
i sometimes even vanish out of the pack to start tfd rolling
Ye and its lovely when the timer doesnt start
Because its bugged 
paper iron
i mean
i ve played with nightstalker giving 0% for a year
And with sectech not working with accro
and with dm being able to be applied by only one rogue
and with bte being on cd while note showing it
vale pine
secret not working with acro was also a big oof
paper iron
i m used to bug now 
swift tinsel
its spirit lives on with not working with tier set/some bosses
hazy breach
Another great one thats still in censi
hazy breach
When your deathmark rupture ends you lose your scent stack
paper iron
sectech should be arround you and not the target, that would fix lot of issues
vale pine
^ rogues are bug enjoyers
hazy breach
Until you refresh rupture
paper iron
yea i ve noticed that lately with scent
hazy breach
But dm doesnt give you two scent stacks, it only takes it away when it ends
paper iron
it s rigged as hell
hazy breach
paper iron
but as i m playing mage a lot recently, they have many bugs as well. Thing is they re kinda minor AND they dont play arround them
vale pine
i am happy we play trickster
swift tinsel
no you can't make me
not even in raid
never ever
it would have to be like
30% ahead
vale pine
swift tinsel
for me to consider it
paper iron
that was a joke obviously ds is trash as hell, it works ok with assa but still not that good
hazy breach
u dont wanna play ds in m+? <:garf:1320173032743899157>
Cancelaura for 0.8% aoe dps 
Great gameplay
hazy breach
Nah the cancelaura is for darkest night
paper iron
cancel dn
hazy breach
So you can continue to BP
paper iron
iykyk
hazy breach
Without losing the mark damage
vale pine
well would mean you play deathstalker
hazy breach
Ye
alpine wraith
lul
hazy breach
Well you want to swap targets to strike anyway for more ctw
alpine wraith
yea figured
paper iron
i m with dave the gdrood now
hazy breach
But if you get shadowcraft refunds youre not forced to eviscerate
One of the maintanks in my guild is convinced Guardian is insane for m+
paper iron
i think it s very good
like genuinly cant die
this season i think to be honest the balance is kinda good for m+ as long as you re playing a comp that makes sens, gdrood / protwar with rsham is such a good synergy, it then goes well with hunter feral rogue blablabla
hazy breach
Swap to Iron wire to mitigate not having veng 
Should be more damage overall anyway, veng damage (and threat) kinda sussy
paper iron
dont need to
like just need to use brain and open mdt
like Vegan is doing
u cant copy vdh / boomie route obviously
hazy breach
Idk probably could with iw, you can silence mobs for upto 36s seconds with 2 vanishes 
Granted youll do way less damage since youre spamming garrotes but it was def really good in grimba last season
If they end up making iw baseline theyre gonna end up nerfing it so hard
old venture
Granted youll do way less damage since youre spamming garrotes but it was def re...
ah yess, grim butthole
paper iron
it s kinda always been since hyrbid exist because you need so many points that actually do damage, but for bleed u just skip either 2shiv or sbs and it s all fine in number (from my testing in keys)
old venture
definitely a dungeon of all time
vale pine
i am not sure i have a favorite dungeon this xpac
old venture
if I had a gun to my head, forced to pick one
it would be candletown
darkflame cleft is probably the least shitty
swift tinsel
most tolerable would have to go to maybe arakara minus last boss? or dfc
old venture
arakara is wild
because it's a chill dungeon
and then you get to the end
and it just fucking sucks
swift tinsel
the rooting mechanic is just worse worm boss from shadowmoon burial ground
from the trash and boss
old venture
final holly
Personally I love bosses where one guy can press 1 button and utterly annihilate all 5 of you
old venture
latent finch
plus people griefing poison
dk pressing limb also a classic
final holly
Never forget my prot pally friend killing us all with avenging shield in last boss of arakara
final holly
Same guy then went on to press abomb limb in the lich boss of TOP while stood next to the boss
old venture
lmfao
swift tinsel
ahahahaha
old venture
and on Ipa
latent finch
to be fair we can just shorten in down to dk with slappy hands
old venture
in cinderbew
blood DK hits slappy hands
suddenly boss has a 40 million absorb shield
and we're all dead
like nice dude
void ocean
Same guy then went on to press abomb limb in the lich boss of TOP *while stood n...
I did this once π
actually didnt stand initially, but went on to dodge the orb and forgot to cancel
brainfart
paper helm
Dks just need to learn to not press slappy hands
void ocean
bruh that shit dope
especially with adhd tanks moving shit away from DnD all the time
void ocean
ye
void ocean
Dnd is like a no dam button
what???
paper helm
That more likely creates problems by people anyways
Oh
Aorry
Abom limb
My bad
Abom limb is like a no dam button
void ocean
well if theres a necessity to move, i move as well so limb again pulls it towards me
tho in that case dnd wasnt predicted well
im only referring to cases when movement is not necessary but tanks do it anyway cause god knows why
paper helm
Thats fine, unless its a drastic movement, AFAIK only the dk needs to dip into dnd for the cleave
And if its a drastic movement then the dk placed it poorly anyways
honest brook
guys if i wanna check boss1 ML sub dmg in logs , did logs show less dmg than meter? and how much is that diff if i wanna figure out how much that sub dealed
paper helm
Logs more accurate if anything
swift tinsel
Yeah unless they rip the pack into narnia you can play around them moving
to a degree obv
you have 4 sec to re-up the buff
its still annoying
paper helm
Yeah but as long as the dk stands in the dnd they still cleave
wet lava
In m+ do u guys delay ur openers a bit if there's a windows between packs for tfd
Stg sometimes it counts down hits 0 fhen resets even tho I'm in stealth
keen dome
Yeah I'll sometimes sit in stealth an extra second to get it
Esp if the tank is grouping mobs
fallow nimbus
what a good year it was back then 
keen dome
Hell yeah
fallow nimbus
then 10 years later shit hit the fan 
median nacelle
do u guys sometimes get house of cards out of sync cd with blades? : S
lucid jackal
Only happens this week cuz of affix
sly shore
honest brook
@sacred hull could you tell me how to open full cd on pulling boss1 rookery before he goes to center?
mint swift
My dumb ass reading through the sub rota guide trying to understand a single thing
Jesus haven't touched this spec in a whiel
keen dome
Just gotta follow the order of operations and win big prizes. It seems more complex than it is.
swift tinsel
its okay
swift tinsel
it looked cooler at one point
the last hit had a lil jumpy spin to it
now its just a spin
swift tinsel
unless you wanna click your spellbook you should
keen dome
Yeah, you ideally don't macro anything really.
mint swift
Not what i meant mr david
swift tinsel
you can have a cb+sectech macro but you want a sep naked sectech bind
keen dome
Ye, that.
keen dome
The exception is trinket + Shadowblades
mint swift
you can have a cb+sectech macro but you want a sep naked sectech bind
I know exactly why
But
Ugh feels bad
swift tinsel
it's w/e
mint swift
I'm assuming cause youd wanna send 2nd ST in flag
swift tinsel
you don't have to min/max it if you don't want to
keen dome
Yeah, there's a lot of buttons to learn and push. But Sub is really just learning the why you push 'em and then you flow naturally.
mint swift
Because if you have it bound youd send ST during flags buildup or smth
swift tinsel
yeah you sectech first finisher in first dance
keen dome
And we send CB when it's at it's peak of buffs in the second ST window
For bigger damage
swift tinsel
^
keen dome
Basically just stacking it all together, which is what Sub is at it's core.
Stacking all the buffs properly
mint swift
Alr
God this sounds like it's gonna be a bitch to learn how to do properly haha
Also i prolly need a dif weak aura pack
swift tinsel
its really not bad
mint swift
Cause rn i just have whispyrs
keen dome
It'll take some practice but it really isn't that bad, or complex.
Just learn the rules and blast
swift tinsel
practice opener/burst window
then get used to when you can send sod/dance/sectech between big burst windows
patent lichen
90th percentile parsing.... Are we cooked??? Lol
slate marlin
still time to announce sub buffs
keen dome
Yeah
mint swift
I thought i only had two
swift tinsel
with 2/2 Death Perception
keen dome
lmao, the message at the bottom
keen dome
Typically you have a cadence of 2 in burst, 2 out of burst, 2 in burst, 1 out of burst, 2 in burst, etc. O rsomething like that
Because it's all about getting the full two in burst, and then having enough CDR to have two in burst the next time around.
wicked joltBOT
mint swift
Tbh
I should prolly wait to learn all this shit before i go off for uni
But w/e
How do you make WAs onyl show up when in certain specs again
keen dome
Don't hesitate to ask questions 'cos Sub has some weirdness and just discussing it can help. Also LE's WA's are the goat.
swift tinsel
Load - Class and Spec
patent lichen
Discuss?
lucid jackal
discuss what?
patent lichen
Did the picture not load lol
lucid jackal
Idk waht u want us to discuss
proven plover
https://tenor.com/view/cum-gif-20534148
Massive burst
patent lichen
Lol
proven plover
Wtf I didnt know that im THAT bad..
lucid jackal
Theres only so much to really say
mint swift
Tbh
I don't have enough buttons on my usual rota for all of these
Imma have to add some more
swift tinsel
#bmproblems
mint swift
Not rlly this is one of the first time's ive encountered it
lucid jackal
- Subs value as an early prog spec, solving specific problems becomes less relevant than "parsing" and doing well on WCL as these "problem solving tools" become less useful as meeting specific damage checks stop defining specific fights (1st bomb set and general add damage on OAB, Barrels on Rik)
- Sin for sure did not need that 4% buff a few weeks ago, relative to other rogue specs
- Sub probably should have gotten buffed like many specs did last week
mint swift
Like assa is fine
Fury n shit was fine
I mean arms had a simmilar problem
lucid jackal
This is all there is to say really
mint swift
But that's cause it had some useless things
So
It's a 1% diff (aprox) macroing cold blood to secret tech
proven plover
Wtf is up with the deathmark prepull fix that was posted today, was that a thing?
vale pine
It's a 1% diff (aprox) macroing cold blood to secret tech
yes
lucid jackal
Wtf is up with the deathmark prepull fix that was posted today, was that a thing...
technically but p sure it was never actually done
proven plover
Im curious as to how it wouldve functioned
lucid jackal
Oh deathmark
not deathstalker mark
Yeah i dont think any DM shit was done then
cuz u have to ramp ur cds on boss before DM does anything
swift tinsel
idk they probably just did blanket cds
keen dome
I suspect they have a far better idea of potential implications than we do and are just changing all of them.
lucid jackal
They listed all things that this will happen on
Not all things that it's good to do with
slate marlin
because they are reworking stuff and they are foreseeing stuff (huge copium)
lucid jackal
?
proven plover
Didnt read the opening lines mb
lucid jackal
idk how those relate
lucid jackal
Nope just a blanket rule change
proven plover
At least sod is still a thing
Now if i would actually remember to supercharge on revive reliably
Our 2nd rogue always whispers me to remind, even after he swapped to assa
swift tinsel
mint swift
Ok so having a read
Outside of dance you:
Evic for SnD
spread rup if shit lives
BP without flawless (7+)
Evic
and to build points
Shurken with 3+
inside you use sec tech as your first finisher
Use BS as your first CP builder, shuriken to build with a ton of mobs else shadowstrike
Evic as a finisher unless 7 or higher
proven plover
https://wago.io/1N-_8fnRf
Thanks
mint swift
And for cds
Is it just using SB and Flag togheter (but flag with high cp so you can finish after
SoD with flag or with sec tech if you didn't flag
Vanish for prem if you need CP
CB with 2nd ST on big cds
young mural
1. Subs value as an early prog spec, solving specific problems becomes less rele...
nicely said guy
swift tinsel
Ok so having a read
Outside of dance you:
Evic for SnD
spread rup if shit lives
...
you still build with strike in aoe in dance
with the caveat of
if you play The Rotten, you Strike first builder in dance, then storm as second bc Storm consumes both buffs of Rotten
mint swift
Ahh yeye thats what i mean
Ah alr as im running rotten i don't worry about a bs in dance?
So i just do SS and then ST then Storm
swift tinsel
in aoe you don't need to worry about bs in dance
it doesn't really gain much/any value once you get into aoe territory
so you just strike - sectech - storm - bp
etc etc
young mural
so you just strike - sectech - storm - bp
storm after sec tech because it doesnt affect sec tech's dmg????
FW
idk how to talk
type
mint swift
Yucky
swift tinsel
storm after sec tech because it doesnt affect sec tech's dmg????
storm to spread fw but if you run rotten
it consumes both stacks
mint swift
Sending ST outside of dance
swift tinsel
so you send second builder
mint swift
Is when you'd use SoD?
swift tinsel
yeah sometimes you can symbols w sectech but can't dance bc cdr reasons
mint swift
Wait don't you wanna ST in every dance tho
swift tinsel
you do
young mural
yes
mint swift
So you'd have to hold dance until you get another ST
swift tinsel
which is why its a mess to macro them all together
if you play your cd's correctly it does not happen very often
proven plover
So you'd have to hold dance until you get another ST
Outside of flag yes
In Flag you can use 2nd dance as soon as first drops
To keep winning streak charges
And sectec will come off CD in that 2nd dance
mint swift
God i feel like imma have an aneurism
swift tinsel
!burst
wicked joltBOT
During your Flagellation and Shadow Blades you want your second Shadow Dance to be cast immediately after the first one ends. You do not
want to cast Symbols of Death at the same time as your second Shadow Dance, but rather 1 or 2 seconds later when Secret Technique has
10 seconds or less remaining. This is to make sure you supercharge the Secret Technique instead of an Eviscerate.
Because of this a Shadow Dance+Symbols of Death macro is not ideal.
mint swift
Ye
swift tinsel
outside flag/blades
mint swift
Every dance i use w symbols,
Not every symbol with dance tho
swift tinsel
you want to line up symbols, dance, and sectech
correct
there are also the odd cases of sending sectech without sod or dance
but that's quite rare
mint swift
Ok maybe i won't polaythis spec
Idk XD
swift tinsel
basically when sectech comes off cd
proven plover
xdd
swift tinsel
you look and see if you can send symbols and dance with it
if you can't send both, can you send just symbols?
if you can't send symbols, naked sectech
lil flowchart action
once flag cd hits ~30 sec with skyfury, you stop sending symbols/dance but can send sectech up to 20sec left on flag cd
if you think you can reliably farm the cdr to have 2x for flag
mint swift
Ok asking for a friend how bad is binding SD and SoD
proven plover
The only thing that you should bind together is blades with racial and trinket
swift tinsel
otherwise you have 3 keybinds
it helps having them bound on keys that are comfy to press together
like I have symbols on Q and dance on 3
swift tinsel
ah yeah that's perf
mint swift
But the problem is you have like
Shit st
as assa
Tbh i just need a mouse with more buttons tbh
Find it much more comfortable sometimes
mint swift
I feel like i already am and i haven't even tried it in a dungeon or some shit yet
Like im just doing it on dummies and i still feel like it's too much
mint swift
Yea
proven plover
You need to build the feeling for the cdr
And for the CDs how they work together
And interract
mint swift
And tbh if i start illjust macro cold blood and ST because i don't have a fucking place to but CB and feel comfy with it
swift tinsel
that's fine
if you're just learning the spec you don't really need to worry that much about optimizations like that
proven plover
Its better to be forgetting to cb rather than starting to learn it in a way you shouldnt be using it tbh
mint swift
Fair
proven plover
But youd have to decide yourself
mint swift
Tbh the hard part for me is comprehending to press like
4 buttons or so at once
But still not be allowed to macro them together
proven plover
You will be building muscle memory for the Button sequences
See them as gcd and off gcd presses
Like bs is your gcd
Followed by sod as off gcd
mint swift
Tbh right now im doing shit idk why
Like just pressing SD when it's off cd even if ST isn't up
void ocean
Thats how I felt with dust build on Smold
void ocean
Fckin rendered me catatonic
mint swift
and bliz removed it
Tbh at the time i was playing sub and was
Still confused with it
void ocean
Bruh I hated every window was fckin different
There was nothing to get used to
One window u flag and blade instant, second window only flag, third flag then vanish then blades second dance bla bla
Meanwhile u dodge rings and collect balls, u miss one and gg
proven plover
Tbf i took a vacation from sub while dust was meta lol
mint swift
Tbh i must just check outlaw or assassination this shit is too muh
void ocean
This season sub rota is great tho
Just spend some time on the dummy
And maybe some WA
proven plover
!wa
wicked joltBOT
void ocean
I wrote one that tells me not to dance if flag is less than 27 sec left on cd
mint swift
Genuinly this feels like im doing research for a uni assignment
void ocean
And also have one which tells me that its ok to flag if second dance charge is less than 40 sec left on cd
mint swift
I'm genuinlky debating clicking CB because idk what keybind to put it on
void ocean
I macroed it with sec tech but with modifier as left shift
proven plover
Can u put it on a modifier with your sectec key?
void ocean
So if i just pres keyb it does naked sec tech, if i add shift ud does cb+sec tech
Do like
void ocean
/cast [mod:lshift] Cold Blood;
/cast Sec tech;
mint swift
Cause i remember it being off a ton
mint swift
Alr so in aoe for most packs that aint 7 + im just SS --> evic
And spreading rupture if its able
also in the opener
shoudl i wait on the flag if i have a lot to rup
Or
Is there a max limit on how many things i want to rup
void ocean
theres no way in hell im spreading rupt as sub
mint swift
Ofc assuming they are living for a while
swift tinsel
you farm enough cdr in aoe even at like 5-6 targets that you get sectech back for flawless uptime
proven plover
Rupture spread on gather or outside of CDs is big tho
mint swift
theres no way in hell im spreading rupt as sub
There a way to run without needing to use rup
proven plover
They get amped by cds
mint swift
Still think it's absolutly fuckin stupid that sub uses Rupture tbh
Like i feel like it should be assa only
void ocean
im not a key pusher, +10 is my limit and for that u dont need to do that much
proven plover
Ye wheres nightblade
void ocean
tho Im assa atm so... π
proven plover
Bring nightblade back
keen dome
I spread ruptures when the tank is pulling stuff together or i've got no cooldowns, etc
void ocean
we need the "days without the nightblade talk: 0" meme here π
swift tinsel
its superior to rupture
proven plover
Sadly we are the forgotten child
swift tinsel
part of*
mint swift
Fuck it imma try a dungeon and log it
keen dome
Fuck it imma try a dungeon and log it
π
keen dome
It's all practice. It just takes time.
mint swift
Yea but like i wanna push on the hutner and play an alt at the same time
Cuase i got uni it might be hard
keen dome
Uni's important, ye. There'll always be more time for WoW
But studying is cool and important
keen dome
Hell yeah summer break between the academic years?
void ocean
Never could game over summer
Feels weird to raid while its still daylight outside π€£
Best gaming is in winter, cold outside snowstorm, u in warm...
swift tinsel
we raid 9pm my time so I never have to worry about that lol
mint swift
But yea tbh i'm more worried about pressing buttons i shouldn't w my fatty fingers
void ocean
Here its daylight almost till 21.30
mint swift
Also how bad it is to just press shadow blades like a second or two earlier
Or a tiny sec late after ST
void ocean
And we raid from 20h
keen dome
I'm too pale to go outside. It burns me.
void ocean
Also how bad it is to just press shadow blades like a second or two earlier
Or a...
Bruh i macroed trinket, sb and st
swift tinsel
I'm usually out hiking or about town until sundown during the summer since we only get a few months of decent weather
reading outside typically
mint swift
Bruh i macroed trinket, sb and st
Hmmm maybe a shout
But ofc having 2 other binds for ST
Because would you ever SB without a ST
void ocean
No
swift tinsel
realistically if you really want to you can macro sectech to your blades bind
bc like
best-case scenario you blades before the first clones right as you're about to strike
but if you press it at the same time as sectech its w/e
swift tinsel
blades is off gcd so it doesn't really matter
void ocean
Yea
swift tinsel
as long as it buffs your clones you're good
mint swift
Alr don't think imma be able to test sub tonight as everyones going to bed
hollow spear
Give your brain a night to shelve all the information haha
vale pine
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.!bs
wicked joltBOT
Backstab/Shadow Dance Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow DanceThis will cast Shadow Dance on first key press and Backstab on second key press.
mint swift
Give your brain a night to shelve all the information haha
I got uni tmmrw sadly haha
But tbh I have like
3 weeks or so
Then a stupidly long break
round abyss
so why are we not recommending macros? SD with SoD just seems natural
void ocean
so why are we not recommending macros? SD with SoD just seems natural
cause in some situations u want to fire sd without sod
the situation being burst window when u want to wait sec tech to be on 10 seconds or less cd in the second dance before using sod
so that ur sec tech ends up being supercharged as second finisher
if u use sod right away with second dance u will either spend both supercharged cps on evis or u will have to wait and lose gcds
in my experience its usually (depending the sht procs) either sd -> backstab -> finisher -> sod or sd -> finisher -> sod
void ocean
sometimes due to sht procs I end up the first dance with full cps
void ocean
shadow teh
shy ermine
Shadow techniques, the combo points from auto attacking
void ocean
the refunds basically
void ocean
huh?
round abyss
i've only ever heard "ping him/her" at work
mint swift
alpine wraith
it is a thing for discord too kinda
round abyss
dont mean anything negative by it lol, just peaked my interest. I've yet to hear it in disc too often π
void ocean
its too late, u insulted me and my entire bloodline
round abyss
forgive me my tribal chief!
void ocean
round abyss
hahaha
stoic sphinx
does anyone know if symbols of death/supercharger is resetting on pull in 11.1.5 now?
void ocean
Β―_(γ)_/Β―
stoic sphinx
hm Shadow Techniques (id=196911) is on the list
is that a problem
oh nvm it does that already apparently
void ocean
wasnt that already there
stoic sphinx
i think this flag is mostly for auras
is supercharger a hidden buff? or is it just scripted now
stoic sphinx
is the aura reading a buff tho
thought it was doing something else
like combo point api or something
void ocean
dunno, could be, didnt study it dubiously
tho i guess even if its gets reset, shouldnt be that great loss
not as much as outlaw π
stoic sphinx
Supercharge (id=470409) already had the flag but that might be old
void ocean
didnt even dare yet to go to the channel to see if the crying commenced
stoic sphinx
yeah looks old
yeah supercharger looks fine according to spelldata, and looks like solo's pin in #outlaw says the same
worn ivy
im expecting a subtlety buffs 2moro
void ocean
And dinar
hollow plinth
!up
wicked joltBOT
dire jolt
Dark Bew buffs plague damage just once I imagine right?
sour void
Can someone here help me analyse a dungeon log and tell me where to improve.
I am maining assa but i want to get better at sub and want to know where i can improve.
https://de.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jpzcHGfRxDFng6Ct?fight=last&type=damage-done&source=16
wind canopy
Can someone here help me analyse a dungeon log and tell me where to improve.
I ...
Are you macroing your SB and Flag? Seems like you keep hitting SB before your Flag each time you use them.
You should be Flag > Finisher > Dance/SOB/Builder (because of Pre-med) > SB/Trinket/Sectec.
sour void
My only macro is cold blood+secret
wind canopy
Okay, well your sequencing is off
An example of that:
You don't want to be hitting blades before your dance because you're just wasting the pre-med proc and the 7 CP. Can save SB for a bit later in Flag
sour void
Thank you, i will look into doing this better
wind canopy
You also don't really want to be using Ruptures during your dances as well. Doesn't snapshot, but dynamic with the various buffs so better off using Eviscerates/ST/BP:
wind canopy
pretty much that
sour void
Ok i will try to do all that. I dont think my damage is that low but i have the feeling i can do much better and wanted to have a start on where to improve
wicked joltBOT
Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:
- Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
- Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
- Make sure you always get 8 globals of during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
- If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.
dire jolt
I think sub is really fun, downside is you're playing a buff less pure dps. π
maybe you can tricks the tank to keep the Havoc or Devoker alive
final holly
Removing parry is a real raid buff 
short radish
i wonder how much % dps that really is
dire jolt
WTB passive modifier to let me use daggers in Outlaw like with the Cata legendaries. π
north schooner
to check for the 8 globals within each dance you can use the following filtering pin. it will only show casts that happen within a dance so you don't need to check timestamps 2$Off$#244F4B$auras-gained$-1$0.0.0.Any$0.0.0.Any$true$0.0.0.Any$true$185422$true$true
amber crow
if both symbol and sd are on cd, how long do i want to hold st? or do i always hold it until either is back up?
final holly
to check for the 8 globals within each dance you can use the following filtering...
Is this a wcl filter expression?
north schooner
yes, you just input it in Queries -> From Paste
final holly
That's very cool, I'll save this somewhere
I've wanted to learn the query language at some point but never got around to it
north schooner
for something like this you don't need to know their query syntax, you can do it through their graphical interface. New Query-> Tick buffs/debuffs-> tick Only Match when Aura is Present on Source -> select the ability name or spell id in the abilities text box-> change pin type to Filter
but their interface is fairly limited for a bit more complicated things (which aren't needed in this case)
final holly
I used to mess around with graphql queries on the sister site fflogs but never touched the filters
lilac stag
@tribal blade i hate DKs
random hare
my guy
random hare
my guy explained the entire spec in a few lines
what a goat
if u suck at sub
read what he said
if u do 0 dps
read what he said
u want 100 logs
what he said
cuh
sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh
tribal blade
<@146180393941336064> i hate DKs
is this a top?
tribal blade
ah yeah then that's bad
pastel rampart
wispy bolt
please give secret buffs tomorrow so i can stop hearing shit for not playing the boring ass dot spec
short radish
please give secret buffs tomorrow so i can stop hearing shit for not playing the...
just only play ToP
every single key
wispy bolt
Iβll just keep chugging along until I hit top 10 in the world with like 3250π
round abyss
so this is driving me crazy, i am sorry to beat a dead horse guys -- using sectec outside of SoD window is how big of a DPS loss? I have SD and SoD macro'd together and typically do Sectech w CB as the 1st finisher, then my 2nd SD tyypically drops without a SOD and then on the 2nd finisher i use SecTech without CB -- after reading today, i now understand not ideal, but how big of a loss is it doign it this way? I only ask because my muscle memory is gonna take time to break.
rocky ocean
one morbilion damage
round abyss
i can correct the 1st sectec w/ cb issue easy, moreso not having a SOD for the 2nd SD sectech w/ cb -- curious to know the drop there.
wispy bolt
on m+ its unironically millions in DPS on big pulls. don't fall for the trap like i did thinking its 1%
short radish
break the muscle memory
get used to breaking muscle memory
it happens from patch to patch
wispy bolt
CB + sectech
round abyss
yep, not at all saying im not goign to break the muscle memory, simply asking if i should bench myself to lower keys until i get it right
short radish
no dont do that
round abyss
if its mill dps drop, then i prob need to
short radish
just get it right in higher keys
wispy bolt
What i did is keep sectech on R and move the macrod one to Ctrl+R. took 5 minutes to adjust
use the same key but with a modifier if itll help you remember
round abyss
now i need to break the SD w/ SoD Macro
wispy bolt
but yeah on cinder it is mega dps diff on first pull
round abyss
my worry is missing out on SD time reaching to press SoD
short radish
it shouldnt
round abyss
so no SoD first SD window?
wispy bolt
mouse button for strike/backstab and SoD next to sectech is where its at.
short radish
???? no you always symbols in dance
wispy bolt
whats the command to show them the chart
round abyss
so then why is a SOD/SD Macro not reccomended?
wispy bolt
!mistakes
wicked joltBOT
Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:
- Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
- Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
- Make sure you always get 8 globals of during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
- If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.
wispy bolt
look at the picture link
Sod is always after Dance but sometimes its delayed by a few globals so Sectech is up while supercharger is active
if you just blow both at the same, the second sectech isnt supercharged cause its not up for the 2 finisher window
round abyss
why is 12.5 a backstab and not a shadowstrike?
wispy bolt
backstab after dance for FW
short radish
!guide
wispy bolt
Danse macabre i guess too but i dont think about that
round abyss
holy.. im doing a lot more wrong than i though
short radish
he does a really good explanation of each global
round abyss
thought*
wispy bolt
How is 6 always a coup. i find that its often not...
round abyss
i was speaking with fuu earlier, a lot of ppl were talking but i swear he said SecTec was the 2nd finisher on 2nd sd -- may have been someone else
but picture shows 3rd
short radish
i was speaking with fuu earlier, a lot of ppl were talking but i swear he said S...
it can be
well
its more
sectec should be no later than your 2nd finisher after symbols
(in your 2nd dance)
short radish
How is 6 always a coup. i find that its often not...
pray to rng or something