Started sending 2-3cp killing sprees in m+ a lot
#subtlety
midnight geyser
leaden prairie
I think my worse keys rn are legit top and workshop dude
midnight geyser
Still better than most
leaden prairie
Why do people think outlaw is low target cap king or smth
midnight geyser
I’ve been having fun on sin but I rlly don’t wanna gear for it
leaden prairie
I legit do better in keys like flood and priory
That's the type of shit outlaw likes
midnight geyser
You play kir tho
sly shore
assa is pretty good in top with sudden demise sniping everything
leaden prairie
Both assa and sub are better than outlaw in top
midnight geyser
Fair enough
leaden prairie
Top isn't an outlaw key anymore
fringe palm
assa in general is really fun in keys, raid without vv also pretty good
midnight geyser
assa in general is really fun in keys, raid without vv also pretty good
Raid without improved garrote is weird to me
alpine wraith
people forgot deep cuts or whatever the name is got nerfed 3 times
paper iron
Zac btw
alpine wraith
think 3-4 target cleave outlaw king
midnight geyser
Precise cuts
fringe palm
Not sure why people think this is still sl
im getting asked about sub funnel still
every tier
every key
alpine wraith
ahahaha
alpine wraith
THE ROGUE IS USING SHADOW BLADES
fringe palm
Raid without improved garrote is weird to me
were back to garotte 
game bug
sly shore
THEY DID THE PACK FASTER BECAUSE JPC USED SHADOW BLADE
leaden prairie
im getting asked about sub funnel still
Wait till they learn the only spec that funnel is assa
midnight geyser
I started the tier as sub but I couldn’t handle the dps and spec feel outside of burst windows
sly shore
#NeverForget
paper iron
And what à funnel
fringe palm
HE HELD SHADOWBLADES
sly shore
Wait till they learn the only spec that funnel is assa
even then it doesn't now with bleed build
paper iron
Assa probably one of the best funnel in the game
leaden prairie
people forgot deep cuts or whatever the name is got nerfed 3 times
It got buffed to higher than it was nerfed
midnight geyser
even then it doesn't now with bleed build
I’d still play kb in high keys
leaden prairie
We didn't have that talent in SL tho
fringe palm
even then it doesn't now with bleed build
singular focus is 3-4% in keys
thats pretty good
alpine wraith
0.1%
fringe palm
I’d still play kb in high keys
but kb does no dmg 
why bother
paper iron
Energy regen with aoe
sly shore
yeah kb is piss merchant damage
midnight geyser
but kb does no dmg <:Hmm:1068279498392473724> why bother
Thought it was the move in high keys?
fringe palm
well depends on who you ask, but some of the popular high key rogues have.. lets call it interesting opinions
sly shore
paper iron
All assa build do the same
And People figuring out
In High Keys we Went from 6% bleed to 20% now
fringe palm
no bleed cant be good in highkeys it was low keys only in df!!!!
wild vine
All assa build do the same
Not entirely true
leaden prairie
were back to garotte <:gladge:791034783156142149> game bug
What bug
wild vine
Bleed is slightly better St, slightly better aoe and sudden demise, Hybrid really only has cleave scenarios
paper iron
OK the only diff is hybrid is a bit stronger during all cds and in really massiv aoe
By 0.4% +/-
In real keyz, not sims
leaden prairie
assa pin, imp garrote and ma sims better now (for me atleast)
Ye I saw
Just a sim thing tho
wild vine
That couldnt have any other reason than the build. 
fringe palm
Just a sim thing tho
well, its only a sim thing but now sim should be as it works ingame no?
paper iron
People overthink talents rn
leaden prairie
well, its only a sim thing but now sim should be as it works ingame no?
Ye no I just meant
I thought you guys discovered an in-game bug
paper iron
To me the real diff is on forced induction
fringe palm
yeah im sure your 1 key sample size compares to 100k iterations, there is no rng at all
not that sims are always right
fringe palm
I thought you guys discovered an in-game bug
i did actually, did you know theres a bug where mugzee just goes afk?
paper iron
Have u seen the clip zac Tho
leaden prairie
You can thank him if he goes afk
paper iron
Or only Heard?
leaden prairie
That's cause Kieron is ddosing him
paper iron
RL asking if they should hide log
leaden prairie
I seen a clip of that feral guy
paper iron
Fishy cheaters
leaden prairie
I don't remember his name
alpine wraith
guess we will see this one for a while
paper iron
Remember me jailor
sly shore
sly shore
RL asking if they should hide log
Me when I don't know voices and assume it's raid leader
paper iron
Yed
sly shore
The log that is invalidated nooooOoooO
worn oyster
Hey im new to sub in pve, currently ilvl 600 and using hekiki. I feel much weaker than when i was playing assassination for aoe. Any advice or some big pointers i can take?
plain oasis
dont use hekili for sub it fucked me up bad
plain oasis
it sucks fart man
leaden prairie
im r1 hekili hater
plain oasis
especially if you blindly follow it and then it fucks your timing on the next pack
im r2 hekili hater
i think i used that right
old venture
you did
old venture
Hekili isn't particularly problematic on it's face, but it's at the mercy at whoever maintains the addon's logic for the spec and it can easily be relied on which can be problematic
sly shore
if the apl isn't updated
in hekili
then it wrong
but also choices based on apl are not always the right choice
like sending flag end of a pack
rain pelican
guys.. when i have few CDs i pump. But then comes next pack and all i doo is backstab and havve damagge lower than tank. Is it me that is wrong or is it sub gameplay? Overall damage im double tank.
old venture
but also choices based on apl are not always the right choice
yeah, the addon works by putting a list of what you should do in a situation without being able to analyze it
so if the logic isn't updated, or as you said the boss/pack is dying, it'll tell you to send your CDs
and you'll just have a bad time
rain pelican
To use hekili correct, keybind your toggle CDs. When pack is about to die, toggle off CDs
then toggle on again for next pack / boss
Its in their recommendation een
rain pelican
Im playing Oled.. cant use weakauras.. So i just hekili pewpew xD
sly shore
oled monitor?
swift tinsel
Every time someone in our raid shares their screen I learn one more person there uses hekili
void ocean
whats with oled monitors and wa?
worn ivy
Yo did anyone sim mystic touch vs skyfurry for us in m+?
which one is more benefit
im gonna run some simulations today to find the best comp for us in M+
sly shore
skyfury absolutely shits on mystic touch
alpine wraith
far
swift tinsel
Skyfury is insane
swift tinsel
Plus Sectech dam is shadow
alpine wraith
like if i had 2 bullets and i had to shoot skyfury i would shoot myself
swift tinsel
🤯
alpine wraith
i did call me master predicter
swift tinsel
Simgodx
worn ivy
swift tinsel
leaden prairie
do we also benefit from dh
yes cause shadow is magical
alpine wraith
yea we do a lot of magical dmg
alpine wraith
yea phys comp is usually better with feral vs rogue
worn ivy
F for physical comp i gonna rock with VDH - UH - BOOMY - RSHAM
hazy breach
Assa is mostly phys
alpine wraith
or something else that also buffs the party
worn ivy
100% bis comp
worn ivy
VDH / RSHAM / UH / BOOM / Subrogue
leaden prairie
thanks for the insights
hazy breach
Bro forgot warrior
alpine wraith
warrior instead of rogue
worn ivy
warrior instead wof rogue is ETA GG
swift tinsel
Or sin instead of sub
alpine wraith
nah sub rogue masterrace
leaden prairie
ok what if
alpine wraith
ez ez
swift tinsel
Or mage, and disc instead of rsham
leaden prairie
you play outlaw instead of sub right
alpine wraith
yea big outlaw stonks
leaden prairie
instead of vdh you get a druid tank in right
and then
listen to me
you remove the boomkin and get a war
swift tinsel
Oh man this is a cook lfg
alpine wraith
hope the key is resilient
leaden prairie
and a ww instead of uhdk
swift tinsel
And the tank is a squishy vegan
leaden prairie
And the tank is a squishy vegan
no cuase fuck hunter
swift tinsel
Based
leaden prairie
hunter is useless fr
worn ivy
worn ivy
alpine wraith
big tom
leaden prairie
thats me
hazy breach
Hunters mark bro
leaden prairie
hi
hazy breach
swift tinsel
void ocean
No
alpine wraith
tell him you have him on speeddial
void ocean
Resist.
alpine wraith
hey it is tankier at least
void ocean
Cause death by ks?
swift tinsel
12.1
leaden prairie
They should be back at work
leaden prairie
By now they must have realized they forgot to include rogue in the patch note
swift tinsel
Need time to cook up more sin buffs
leaden prairie
sly shore
buff fatebound
swift tinsel
Maybe a couple pvp nerfs
sly shore
buff deathstalker for sub
leaden prairie
Can't wait for sin to actually get buffed
sly shore
surely that's the fix right
honest brook
is rouge coocked?
swift tinsel
I’m surprised they didn’t buff ds sub since they were tuning underused hero trees
sly shore
it's gonna be so funny whenf atebound assa gets buffed out the wazoo cos play rate is literally zero
vestal escarp
Good
leaden prairie
tahts what they did with outlaw
vestal escarp
More sin buffs
leaden prairie
and trickster
sly shore
surely it fixes the problems!!
leaden prairie
now we are forced to kill ourself on cd
swift tinsel
Inc 60% plague damage buff
wild vine
surely it fixes the problems!!
Creates more
sly shore
oops
vestal escarp
Kill Self
swift tinsel
Mastery affects SnD but only when talented into Hunt Them Down
worn ivy
i like playing with boomyt
coz dh / boomy combo crazy
grip into slience
into fear
big
vestal escarp
Buff sin again to make it absolutely cracked
swift tinsel
I already did 
worn ivy
i mean sin mains already playing uhdk
old venture
are they
swift tinsel
Dang fact checked in real time
vestal escarp
Oops
old venture
I should double check next time I log in to my rogue
didn't realize I wasn't using grip ever
or ams
vestal escarp
Death Grips
sly shore
I'm rolling hpal
vestal escarp
Is it good?
sly shore
surely it's op team
swift tinsel
He was streaming as oracle at 640 no tier set and was laughing at how much easier it was than his main lol
old venture
nice jpeg quality background screenshots from mr. hpal himself
sly shore
just discord compression
leaden prairie
I will compress you kbp
swift tinsel
Hawt
leaden prairie
you're not allowed to reconvene unfortunately
what does that even mean bro
sly shore
twitter compression OKAY
sly shore
what does that even mean bro
iykyk
hallow ice
guys is sub dead
swift tinsel
keen dome
Gordon's alive?
lucid jackal
sly shore
warm marlin
sub is very very good on that fight if you are full focusing the adds (which you should be if you are holding dps like we were). First 2 reel assistants to die -> all reel assistant outside first 2 on pull
the top logs are probably reclearing and less concerned with add damage
hazy breach
sub is very very good on that fight if you are full focusing the adds (which you...
The highest sin log i found was doing like 650k too. 
worn ivy
is there any chart shows which class buff is more strong for us like chart wise
i can sim 1 by 1 but i wanna see it in chart
fierce wigeon
i love ctrl f, typing rogue and seeing nothing but comments on the tuning
placid crown
Hello guys. Do we know if the Thousand cuts talent give dependant or independant probabilities ?
Auto attacks have a chance to reinitiate the availability of invisible blade. So, if first auto attack has not rreinitated it, does the second auto attack has more chance to do it ?
hazy breach
Its rppm, so it procs on average 4.5 time per minute
placid crown
Underlying question: when not in dance/sod, is it preferable to spam backstab to hit as soon as we have the energy, or it does not matter and we can hit when enough virtual combo points are here
hazy breach
It doesnt really matter as long as youre not wasting energy ye
placid crown
ok ok, ty 🙂
honest brook
in down no cd phase in aoe should we back stab and evis or can do rapture some adds?
after my cd down sometimes pack still alive i do shurikan and rapture all adds idk is it worth?
versed hazel
if they'll live a rupture duration its worth
solemn lance
And at that moment he realized. He's dropping tier stacks between dances
rocky ocean
Doesn’t matter tier sucks immensely
swift tinsel
Eh, only really matters in flag/blades
swift tinsel
If you’re dropping it in cds you’re doing something wrong
versed hazel
If you’re dropping it in cds you’re doing something wrong
^
swift tinsel
You have dance to cover all of blades uptime
solemn lance
I'm letting dance end before hitting the next and must be finishing in there
bleak night
swift tinsel
No finishing in between
solemn lance
Yeh that's what I mean I'm messing up, hence losing the stacks
swift tinsel
So you did something wrong if dance isn’t up for that
Then that’s a skill issue not tier issue
solemn lance
It's up, I'm just old and slow
haughty rose
eyo quick question
i understand to hold symbols for sec tec but do i hold sec tec for dance? like symbols and sectec is off CD while dance still has a couplse seconds remaining. do i wait out till i pop symbols and sec tec to keep the latter on CD or is it better to wait to get the danse macabre boost?
solemn lance
@swift tinsel not blaming the tier
worn ivy
eta GG
swift tinsel
Buff to 4% instead of 2% even
placid crown
eyo quick question
i understand to hold symbols for sec tec but do i hold sec t...
Usually you use dance and symbols together or almost together
haughty rose
Usually you use dance and symbols together or almost together
so i hold onto sec tec till dance comes off CD?
placid crown
Depends the fight. I spent some time today checking logs of "constantly very good sub rogues" in the HM raid. And it's like you do dance+symbol for the 3 first sectec
then naked sectec
then 1min30 cycle again
haughty rose
Depends the fight. I spent some time today checking logs of "constantly very goo...
can you link them? i really wanna min max the shit out of this spec but i struggle to find good in depth resources.
placid crown
Went to warcraft logs :
You can check Sprocket boss to get an idea of a single target fight
spoiler : the 10 first sub rogues in the list dont have exactly the same rotation and talents
haughty rose
nice thank you
placid crown
1st dance : always start with Symbol+Dance+Backstab
2nd dance : some players start with Dance+Evis then Symbol+Backstab then Evis then CB+Sectec, some others with Dance+Backstab then Evis then Symbol+Strike then CB+Sectec
lucid jackal
This seems like a bad way to evaluate the spec
placid crown
Well in my case i try to understand how to go to 90% to 99% parses
leaden prairie
2nd dance : some players start with Dance+Evis then Symbol+Backstab then Evis th...
well you dont do the same thing depending on procs and shit cuh
lucid jackal
You want then a general guiding heuristic and not just copying a log 1-1 yk
swift tinsel
Just gotta get machine gun shadowcraft resets ez
placid crown
well you dont do the same thing depending on procs and shit cuh
I understand this, but for example, I dont understand why tfor the 2nd dance, some players do "Dance+Evis then Symbol+Backstab then Evis then CB+Sectec" and not "Dance+Evis then Symbol+Backstab then Evis THEN STRIKE then CB+Sectec"
i mean, it could be a free stack of macabre
but no?
rocky ocean
tepid trellis
depends on combo points when starting the dance and sectech cdr
lucid jackal
Because the important thing to do is "2nd finisher is sectec"
Not "danse stacks before sectec"
placid crown
Because the important thing to do is "2nd finisher is sectec"
2nd AFTER a symbol
leaden prairie
I understand this, but for example, I dont understand why tfor the 2nd dance, so...
Cause they procced shadowcraft
lucid jackal
Yeah your first. 2have to be sectec
leaden prairie
You are not gonna strike at full cp are you
lucid jackal
Doing Evis evis sectec is too slow
placid crown
well this is now my question : is it a loss to do it in order to get a +1 macabre stack ?
lucid jackal
Danse isn't important in that way
tepid trellis
sectech as soon as the fucker is rdy
too much of tricksters value is in using it for Unseen blades
leaden prairie
No!
placid crown
So, if i have shadowcraft proc in both cases, doing Evis + Sectec is better than doing Evis + Strike + Sectec ?
i mean, it's 6%
swift tinsel
You already have fully stacked flag plus more flawless form stacks so that 6% isn’t as impactful for second Sectech
placid crown
i see
vale pine
swift tinsel
The buff bucket is already pretty full at that point vs just dance
tepid trellis
danse is not really something you actively worry about when playing
lucid jackal
It guides the rotation but yeah in the moment to moment u don't play around it
tepid trellis
yep
lucid jackal
Only thing it affects is backstab first global in dance
swift tinsel
Huuuge newbie trap
“Gotta stack to the moon even if I lose dps getting no real gain”
tepid trellis
Only thing it affects is backstab first global in dance
and imagine even doing that
aint gonna catch me do it xD
leaden prairie
aint gonna catch me do it xD
That's why you are washed up old man
tepid trellis
cant fucking stand it
leaden prairie
Stealthi how old are you
tepid trellis
27
sly shore
HAHA OLD
swift tinsel
cries in mid-30’s
keen dome
*cries in mid-30’s*
tepid trellis
i still pump out the occasional rank 1
tepid trellis
havent had the drive lately to do parse attempts on farm
they just happend if they happen
usually end up with a bunch of top 20-10 parses
leaden prairie
Just press buttons no?
leaden prairie
Imagine outlaw
tepid trellis
just press 1-2-3 good and you will do good
leaden prairie
At least sub can steal the pad
swift tinsel
My guild is still learning heroic mechanics in mythic prog so I just vibe
leaden prairie
Ye as outlaw if you have a few pumpers it's over
You need shit to live forever on these type of fight
tepid trellis
i did like 2.33 when rank 1 before was 2.1
just timing shit correctly
i almost had rank 1 overall on the fight
but our tank trolled me
leaden prairie
I sent my second sec tech in the shield on rik and got r1 on my first reclear
Clown spec for noobs no cap
tepid trellis
leaden prairie
I kinda forgot everything about rik by the time I rekklled it
tepid trellis
same xD
leaden prairie
So I was just pressing randomly and it happened
placid crown
This is basically what i see from top logs on a permanent single target fight: so a 1min30 rotation would be stgh like : ----- All buffs (except CB) + Sectec ----- Sectec buffed by SoD+Dance+CB----- Sectec buffed by SoD+Dance when available ----- Sectec buffed by SoD+Dance when available ----- Sectec when available ----- and do it again. Fill the "-----" with backstabs/evis/ruptures. And what i see from it, it is that you use only 1 CB every 1min30.
lucid jackal
I said this before but it seems like your looking for answers in the wrong place
hollow spear
Do you think that if we zoom enough, we might actually discover rogue changes?
lucid jackal
You should follow heuristics not a script
tepid trellis
nah they are stealthed
hollow spear
God darn it
Guy, zac tried to summon you in defense of Sub earlier
You didn't heed the call
swift tinsel
Not just stealthed, Classic Vanish improved stealth mode
Not even the devs can find them
placid crown
You know you can just read wowhead guide
It's just that following wowhead guide makes me far from this:
leaden prairie
Cause you ain't actually doing things properly
tepid trellis
then im afraid you aint reading em right
leaden prairie
- you don't have the gear
swift tinsel
Guides provide the framework but you have to execute
swift tinsel
^^
placid crown
not showing the 2 last cuz i was dead ><
leaden prairie
Bur following wowhead and being slightly smart is all you need for r1s
swift tinsel
There’s no good copy/paste from top logs because stuff is diff from pull to pull
Look at boss timers and work your cds around those
tepid trellis
there will always be boss specific stuff that you cant really cover in a guide format but those things you just learn by doing the boss
but rotational stuff
is covered in guides
lucid jackal
Guy, zac tried to summon you in defense of Sub earlier
wdym
leaden prairie
You can check lorgs io
To check where people are delaying CDs and shit
But that's also something you should figure out by yourself
lucid jackal
not showing the 2 last cuz i was dead ><
Heres how you get rank 1 logs, have more gear than everybody else on early weeks
leaden prairie
Cause that's legit the only thing sub cares about
lucid jackal
Wowhead is going to teach you 99% of the spec
Attempting to follow one individual dudes parses rotation as a script isn't going to get u there
U follow the rules, and you make adjustments, like moving cds, delaying CDs based on the fight
You can either play the spec and figure it out, or you can just copy it from that log website
hollow spear
or you can look at the log site and try to understand why they are doing the things they are doing
but it basically comes down to moving cooldowns around to pad more
you have to keep in mind that the guide teaches you to play "patchwerk"
parses are about padding the hardest
lucid jackal
yeah another way u can get good logs is having a guild that does no aoe damage
hollow spear
if you were to play "patchwerk" on gally, you'd probably end up below 90
hollow spear
yeah, but I doubt his log screenshot is from mythic 😄
lucid jackal
true
swift tinsel
Even on heroic it’s pretty patchwork if the adds aren’t in narnia the whole time
hollow spear
wdym
jesting.. it was about sin overtaking sub on "sub fights" like OAB on stuff like attendant damage
lucid jackal
They gotta delete WCL i think ppl are too stupid to use it as a tool
hollow spear
and the majority opinion was that sub is basically deadge for farm
if you care about meters that is
lucid jackal
"dead for farm"
hollow spear
well, farm for hof players
lucid jackal
its farm u can literally play all of meta if u want
hollow spear
is progress for non-hof players
it seems like with gear and the nerfs
sin might have overtaken sub on sub fights
especially considering the ease of gameplay
lucid jackal
Sin is dead in the sense that OAB is lowkey an execute fight, sin is one of the bets specs in the game on mugzee and then gallywix is a 50 pull boss who cares what u play
U could play sin on last 2 even before the buff tbqh
hollow spear
yep
lucid jackal
One of the most unneccesary buffs of all time
hollow spear
I mean
lucid jackal
I'm playing sub all of farm either way idgaf
hollow spear
within the rogue ecosystem, yes
but it's not like sin performs absurdly vs other specs, mugzee aside
hollow spear
it's more like sub is getting more and more gapped with the ongoing gear progression
won't matter for players like you
keen dome
But we're still cool and purple
hollow spear
but I guess it matters for people who are still progressing through the raid
lucid jackal
it has nothing to do with gear and more to do with every spec in the game get buffed for fun
and sub not getting buffed for fun
keen dome
We've still got time. We're gonna get a buff.
keen dome
Hell yeah, got +10 on a gallywix rekill parse. Just gotta do it 4 more times for the 100!
swift tinsel
They’ve already made it clear they don’t want our burst to be as strong by the cratering of our tier set
keen dome
They’ve already made it clear they don’t want our burst to be as strong by the c...
they could buff, uh....
shiv
swift tinsel
Ah yes the 30sec cd enrage dispel
bleak night
yes buff shiv
keen dome
They could probably just revert? rebuff? SecTec and we'd be cooking
swift tinsel
Very useful in ToP lmao I got yelled at for not dispelling both on the beast mob
lilac stag
Buff BP. Make 
great again.
keen dome
I have no idea what to really suggest on what they could buff so I'll just say random abilities until they buff one of them and I can go "aha, I was right"
swift tinsel
Revert Sectech nerf, add 1-2% to the tier bonus %
keen dome
It's the only one I ever remember to use
lucid jackal
can somebody tell me where this narrative started about our burst being bad
hollow spear
They’ve already made it clear they don’t want our burst to be as strong by the c...
I am still not sure why they would think that. If a devoker gets lucky, they absolutely shit on our burst.
lucid jackal
Sub is still a top 5 burst specs in the entire game
Despite being "undertuned" you could say overall
keen dome
But it could be better.
hollow spear
can somebody tell me where this narrative started about our burst being bad
It's not bad. But if you put the spot we've been in pre-nerf into context, we wouldn't be extremely out of line.
swift tinsel
Its not that our burst is bad
hollow spear
Our problem is that we are only burst
keen dome
I think the pre-nerf tier set would've been more fun to use, with just higher highs.
lucid jackal
Yes, if the tier set that was an overal 33% DPS increase made it's way into the game, subs burst would have literally been doing midnight damage
hollow spear
So if we don't even burst the highest, it's no wonder our overall is bad in comparison.
lucid jackal
Subs burst isnt bad though
keen dome
Yes, if the tier set that was an overal 33% DPS increase made it's way into the ...
And this would've been really funny. Which is why I support it!
bleak night
hollow spear
The problem is that we flatline after our burst
Other specs get to burst and not flatline
So either you stick to our "niche" of burst + flatline and buff burst
or you change the entire idea
bleak night
understood
swift tinsel
Like they nerfed burst and buffed baseline
bleak night
backstab buff inc
swift tinsel
By taking the tier set to 2%, losing 2 stacks, and nerfing Sectech
calm kraken
how much of a DPS loss is it to use shadowstrike instead of backstab after SD
lilac stag
1%
frank bobcat
give edge of night as a talent node plz and thank you
lilac stag
The problem is that we flatline after our burst
We like our burst. We’d also like our burst to not get clapped by boss positioning in a dungeon. We don’t enjoy healer dps after the fact. I don’t think anyone else has that wide of a gap that’s considered a burst spec, but I don’t any more know at this point.
tepid trellis
give shuriken combo as talent node plz and thank you
lilac stag
Delete Sectech. Add combo. Give a choice node for aoe evic or shadow dmg evic
Solves all the fuckin issues with clones
frank bobcat
i'd also like to see some complexity during our downtime - like shifting between rupture centric dmg outside of dance (that you are actively controlling) and burst during dance
swift tinsel
I would like rupture to be interesting or be Nightblade
lilac stag
i'd also like to see some complexity during our downtime - like shifting between...
Huh? You already do this.
lilac stag
I would like rupture to be interesting or be Nightblade
Let rupture be interesting for the dot spec
frank bobcat
Huh? You already do this.
sorry, i mean something more than just backstabbing and keeping rupture active
doesnt have to be rupture, just the only other knob i can think of
swift tinsel
Let rupture be interesting for the dot spec
I would be perfectly fine with that
It’s only real interaction with our kit is not wanting to refresh it during flag
Very compelling gameplay choice
patent crystal
revert tierset changes
swift tinsel
It can be interesting if we’re stuck with it, or gone if we don’t need it
lilac stag
no.
swift tinsel
Maintenance for the sake of maintenance is boring
lilac stag
As soon as its becomes a point of focus it should be on the dot spec
frank bobcat
thats fair - again i just want something a little more dynamic outside of CDs
lucid jackal
Its sort of what sub is by design tho
lilac stag
Maintenance isn’t meant to be exciting. It a box to tick to not mess up the excitement (burst)
lucid jackal
Ur afk outside of CDs
tropic nimbus
Bring back 1 dance
swift tinsel
Maintenance usually gives benefit besides damage in the case of dots
lilac stag
We have no throttle to speak of with haste. They only pace adjustments are in burst or out of burst
Otherwise is 1:1 snooze
frank bobcat
im just being greedy with respect to my favorite spec, i understand that changes to our rotation out of burst are unlikely to happen
lilac stag
you all need to try the other two specs at times with what you want. Less homogenization please. Not more
lilac stag
You should play assa then. Get your rupture fix there.
swift tinsel
Hence the “make it Nightblade” caveat from my previous message
frank bobcat
not sure why this became so aggressive on a rando suggestion in a subtlety forum
swift tinsel
And adds damage amp and only affects one target
lilac stag
lol
frank bobcat
maybe its just the internet, but your kinda telling me to get lost lol
go play assa
lilac stag
I’m telling you to not want homogenization of the spec when it doesn’t need it. The class has that option.
there’s a number of one tricks in here. It be what it be.
frank bobcat
im not sure saying i'd like some more complexity during non-cds is homogenization but i understand your point about rupture specifically
and i also hear Guy's point that this is how the spec is made to be
but non-cd feels super undercooked to me
keen dome
Downtime would do with something else, but I don't know how you achieve it without making it too similar. The simplest idea I have is you spend it setting up the next burst. Which we do anyway.
lilac stag
so answer this, how are you as the designer adding complexity to out of cds keeping in mind the spec is focused on cds
keen dome
so answer this, how are you as the designer adding complexity to out of cds keep...
it opens bejwelled during the downtime so we have something entertaining to do while waiting
swift tinsel
it opens bejwelled during the downtime so we have something entertaining to do w...
Wait wait let him cook I like this
lilac stag
it opens bejwelled during the downtime so we have something entertaining to do w...
I still hop on Tetris.
tropic nimbus
Making gloomblade OP 
frank bobcat
there are plenty of knobs you could turn - what if we had a DM like effect outside of cds? theres a bit of a mini game with coup stacks when you are sending non dance SecTec
swift tinsel
Someone ping realz we solved it
keen dome
Assa being a DoT spec. Outlaw being the high APM constant DPS spec and Sub being the high burst then discord post spec is having them all have neat idneities.
frank bobcat
but my own thoughts are of course half baked
placid crown
Just realizing that dance+evis then symbols+backstab is better than evis then dance+symbols+backstab if you have tierset buff active to avoid 15% risk to see the buff removed by the evis..
lilac stag
more bricks you clear the faster your cds come back
keen dome
Sub suffers, if only, because we aren't fully the cool cooldown spec yet 'cos of weird talents
lucid jackal
there are plenty of knobs you could turn - what if we had a DM like effect outsi...
WIf you were to make dense, outside of CDs, it'd mean you'd be pressing basically every button outside of CDs
which, eh
Storm + BP on st
Reapplying rupture when its not needed to have stacks up
frank bobcat
agree - half baked for sure
lilac stag
so while it’s great to say fix it. I rather have ideas how to fix it.
frank bobcat
but ive devoted literally 5? minutes thinking about it
keen dome
that's more than I spend thinking about my ideas, honestly
bleak night
5 (five) whole minutes
frank bobcat
what can i say, im a deep thinker
lilac stag
that's more than I spend thinking about my ideas, honestly
You have some bangers
hollow spear
to get a 5% value
hollow spear
I hate the whole cdr theme honestly
keen dome
I feel like our non-flag dances are a little weak
The problem with that is you'd then end up buffing in-burst and it'd cycle.
hollow spear
On the one hand you could be like "it's nice to have nothing to do outside of burst, because you can do mechanics"
keen dome
Personally I'd just like to see them kill CB, make SecTec have 100% crit once every dance, and then remove CDR from it all or something I dunno. Or more CDR. One of the two.
hollow spear
But then again, you have to farm CP for the cdr
Which makes you hate to do mechanics that reduce uptime
lilac stag
I got it, what if, and hear me out, you add a talent that reduces your cds by 15/30 seconds when you use vanish?
swift tinsel
Or make evisc do what Sectech does once per dance
tropic nimbus
Genius
hollow spear
dunno if I want shadowdust back
keen dome
Shadowdust had it's time.
lilac stag
We’re technically due for flip flop of sub rogue gameplay
keen dome
Now it's time for something else: Shadecloud.
swift tinsel
We’re too locked into Death Perception, must delete
lilac stag
So it’s either dust or 99% dance uptime with gloom blade
frank bobcat
what we all really miss was having a dust legendary that you had to equipd pre pull - only to get inted by that 1 boomie so you had to wear it the whole fight
hollow spear
it's not like you can squeeze out sth extra
it's that you have to move cooldowns if you don't get cdr
swift tinsel
Now it’s our tanks who are so scared of not getting aggro on pull that they pull anywhere from 1-3 seconds left on timer
frank bobcat
So it’s either dust or 99% dance uptime with gloom blade
another thought - and tell me if im misremembering, didnt we use to CB the first backstab out of dance during shadowlands because of perforated veins? Not sure that's really complexity out of dance vs. extension of dance, but I liked how something I did during dance impacted what I did outside of it
lucid jackal
CB didn't exist in SL
frank bobcat
we did something with perforated veins to optimize it
but maybe im nuts and we just slammed backstab and didnt think about it
lucid jackal
There was a reason to track it for sure
Forget the actual reason
It wasn't something that wacky involved tho
swift tinsel
the rotten
soft summit
Clearly there is something very wrong with sub rogues.
paper iron
more rogues than evoker
keen dome
hang on I can fix this
paper iron
i really think they ll buff aug to the moon seeing this low playerbase on the class
swift tinsel
including the one tomorrow
twilit phoenix
didn't know the numbers were that bad for rogue
paper iron
always been rogue monk at the bottom
soft summit
This is not a strength vs weakness chart. This is a popular vs unpopular chart.
swift tinsel
also need to keep in mind the propagation of the sin bleed build
that gaining popularity = less sub rogues in that metric
keen dome
paper iron
monk got bit of love last expac so they gained some players
keen dome
alright there we go I fixed it
keen dome
oh good point hang on
swift tinsel
Aug population is the rounding error of all other specs
statistical anomaly like a really stupid Neo
soft summit
The reason why sub is at the bottom is because it’s not an enjoyable class to play
How did rogues get in such a state?
swift tinsel
debatable
paper iron
rogue is just not liked in general
paper iron
dogshit leveling, little class fantasy, hard systems with cp / energy / rules
bleak night
rogue terrible class
paper iron
it s been like that forever
bleak night
hate it here
swift tinsel
Because enjoyment is subjective
paper iron
i ve many friends / guildies who tried to level up a rogue and just forfeit lvl 30 ish
swift tinsel
weak
bleak night
weka indeed
swift tinsel
their kung fu is not strong
soft summit
i ve many friends / guildies who tried to level up a rogue and just forfeit lvl ...
Delusional. This is retail. Leveling is not even a thing
rocky ocean
You are forced to backstab and eviscerate for 35 levels
paper iron
yea the leveling isnt 50h life before, but it s still something like 10h if u dont fully optimise it like a nerd
rocky ocean
And energy runs out after second backsrutab
bleak night
leveling is absolutely a thing, especially for new players
just because we arent in classic spending months to level doesnt mean leveling isnt a thing people interact with
soft summit
Blizzard really needs to take a look at rogues and ask themselves how to actually make the class enjoyable. These numbers are just an absolute embarrassing
paper iron
i mean
rocky ocean
I think that rogues masochistic leveling heavily contributes to the popularity of class
twilit phoenix
rogue players are the dudes who like getting their balls stomped on by goth baddies in high heels
swift tinsel
can't argue that
paper iron
and even if rogue is great, let s take s3 df for example, outlaw banger gameplay banger numbers
still not played
swift tinsel
I'd let a goth baddie do just about anything they want to me
lucid jackal
I think all 3 rogue specs are fun rn
paper iron
cuz too hard, too complex, not enough fantasy
lucid jackal
If all 3 specs did 8% more damage than they did rn literally nobody would be complaining at all
soft summit
just because we arent in classic spending months to level doesnt mean leveling i...
You can 1-2 levels per dungeon. Leveling is nothing
keen dome
I think all 3 rogue specs are fun rn
I've not tried Outlaw this season, but I def agree that both Sub and Ass are real good and pretty fun to play right now.
paper iron
all 3 specs are fun, but KS i have to say, being forced to press ks every 15s sucks. But that s the only thing
twilit phoenix
rogue just needs a humble 15% aura buff
paper iron
then we can talk about tuning, but that s another story
swift tinsel
idk sin/outlaw just don't do it for me gameplay-wise
lucid jackal
People are too WCL focused
soft summit
I think all 3 rogue specs are fun rn
If they were fun, sub rogues wouldn’t be sitting at 1%
bleak night
You can 1-2 levels per dungeon. Leveling is nothing
thats fucking 40 dungeons even using the higher end of your estimation lmao
lucid jackal
If they were fun, sub rogues wouldn’t be sitting at 1%
Rogue has had piss playrate for years now
I also don't care about a specs playrate
paper iron
most non rogue players dont really like sub i think
soft summit
Rogue has had piss playrate for years now
Rogues have been unfun for years then
lucid jackal
?
swift tinsel
most non rogue players don't really have a clue what sub is lol
lilac stag
Rogue has zero visuals. People like pretty things on their screen.
paper iron
they often come to test outlaw, end up assa. For some reasons some people still think sub is a pvp spec
lucid jackal
I don't think fun and playrate relate 1-1
swift tinsel
^
soft summit
Rogue has zero visuals. People like pretty things on their screen.
People aren’t dropping rogue for other classes because of sparkly effects
lucid jackal
And again idrgaf about the fact that rogues playrate is low, I care about how fun the spec is to me
swift tinsel
the amount of times people are surprised by my damage in keys/raid is not trivial
lucid jackal
To me, the class is very fun rn
paper iron
and most melees have little visuals, gladly. else u wont see shit in m+ but that s true rogue is not as flashy as ret
lilac stag
sub is fun. it’s also intimidating as fuck for someone new to it. I think the tolerance to try something new and not be good at it for a bit is quite low.
twilit phoenix
And again idrgaf about the fact that rogues playrate is low, I care about how fu...
nice bold text
lucid jackal
I don't want rogue, to turn into ret paladin, or arms warrior
twilit phoenix
lucid jackal
Ur jealous of my texting abilities just admit it
swift tinsel
if rogue becomes ret I'm no longer playing rogue
keen dome
If rogue becomes ret I'll still play rogue but I'll be mad
lilac stag
so the same?
keen dome
Unless we get to use two-handed swords.
soft summit
if rogue becomes ret I'm no longer playing rogue
Do they have to make rogues rets to be fun?
lilac stag
make sub gunslinger. Mid range dps. Let’s go
swift tinsel
Do they have to make rogues rets to be fun?
considering ret isn't fun, no
lucid jackal
Why do u care about the specs playrate
lilac stag
Imagine holding even longer arms over outlaws
lucid jackal
Shouldnt you just care about how you personally feel about the spec
swift tinsel
no some tier list said they can't
swift tinsel
Archon beams a feed directly into my brain about what I should be mad about
soft summit
Why do u care about the specs playrate
I equate play rate to enjoyability. If a class is fun as hell to play, a lot of people would play it. If it sucks to play, most people won’t play it
lilac stag
Archon beams a feed directly into my brain about what I should be mad about
You should try the maxdps feed
lucid jackal
You didn't really answer my question tho
frank bobcat
people would endure pure pain to fotm if it is that far ahead
lucid jackal
Shouldn't YOUR FEELINGS about the spec matter more, than how popular it is
swift tinsel
A lot of people lose sight of the fact that WoW is
a game
that people play for fun
keen dome
Archon beams a feed directly into my brain about what I should be mad about
the only time I'm turning the archon data on is when I have 69's on every boss
lilac stag
Survival has been a banger play wise. Still gets dwarfed by BM and peoples love of having a zoo at their disposal.
swift tinsel
Ngl packleader survival is insanely fun
the new pet system took over for wildfire infusion and I'm here for it
alpine wraith
i like mm more as hunter
frank bobcat
alot of people base their enjoyment on numbers they see attached to a bar
lilac stag
nah
keen dome
Also, I personally care about spec playrate because I think it's really interesting data. but it doesn't drive or diect my playing. It's the same way I'm super interested in how typically only 20% of the playerbase (at max level) get aotc. Data is fasincting.
twilit phoenix
i love how blizz perfected survival in season one
and then overcooked the shit out of it
and now it's dog
lilac stag
That’s just a lot of people in class discords
frank bobcat
fair
lilac stag
That’s already the minority
alpine wraith
surv is still fine i think
soft summit
Don’t think they have to make rogues into ret, they just need to increase its fun. When I play sub rogue and I pop shadow dance and symbols for a brief 10 seconds I’m having a blast. Then outside of shadow chance it’s boring as hell.
To increase fun they should maximize the fun and minimize the crap. So one way they could do it is make shadow dance on a 30 second cooldown
twilit phoenix
surv is still fine i think
it's literally dead in aoe
it's good in like patchwerk ST
swift tinsel
Don’t think they have to make rogues into ret, they just need to increase its fu...
I think you're missing the point that fun is not a universal
twilit phoenix
but they absolutely killed sent
alpine wraith
rip bomberman
paper iron
i liked sv a lot when in sl S3, numbers were insane ofc, but gameplay u were a range that could weave in and out of melee to minmax
paper iron
otherwise just stay range and be safe, lose 1% dps
swift tinsel
Hell yeah gimme Sepulcher
paper iron
soft summit
I think you're missing the point that fun is not a universal
Think you’re missing the point. Just because you’re having fun, the chart shows most aren’t
swift tinsel
infinite blades uptime
lilac stag
I stopped rogue because of it
swift tinsel
what you don't like rng cleaving strikes that can give 95% blades uptime
swift tinsel
Think you’re missing the point. Just because you’re having fun, the chart shows ...
No, the chart says more people are playing other specs, which can be because of a litany of reasons
paper iron
sofo sets 
lilac stag
Love reading data “wrong” to present an argument of it not being fun
swift tinsel
the big return of the tier set
lucid jackal
I don't care about how many other people are haivng fun with rogue
swift tinsel
sofo outlaw was fun
lucid jackal
I care about if I'm having fun with rogue
swift tinsel
big blunderbuss gaming
lilac stag
blunderbussdn
paper iron
SL outlaw is really something i m missing 😔 i ve nostalgia thinking it will one day be the same. But no mfd no kir no dust, it wont ever be
lucid jackal
Outlaw is quite popular this season compared to seasons in the past, but I don't like it that much rn
paper iron
i said kir but i meant kyrian
lilac stag
Outlaw is quite popular this season compared to seasons in the past, but I don't...
just take nausea tabs before playing it.
fixes KS motion sickness
swift tinsel
Yeah I tried playing some outlaw after getting a Capo's but it didn't quite hit for me
paper iron
ER dust mfd was gigachad outlaw, little playrate it was really hard but could single handely carry some m+
lilac stag
if they deleted KS. Trickster outlaw is a banger
soft summit
So rogues are at the very bottom of popularity. Only 1 in 100 play sub rogues. Let us see what blizzard has don’t this week to improve that number?
swift tinsel
You're talking to people who are acutely aware of this
soft summit
Oh… nothing
keen dome
That's a big advert
worn schooner
Outlaw is quite popular this season compared to seasons in the past, but I don't...
the 17% 5 roll rate I think has a lot to do with it. Willing to bet it will drop off more unless they normalize RTB back to previous seasons.
swift tinsel
who cares
lucid jackal
Should sub have gotten a 5% buff this week? Yes
Would a 5% buff to the spec actually improved its playrate? No
glacial orbit
soft summit
it won't be the echo chamber you think
What you mean?
twilit phoenix
Should sub have gotten a 5% buff this week? Yes
Would a 5% buff to the spec actu...
hard disagree
i think a 5% tuning pass would flood sub with new players
swift tinsel
Nah that would make sub fotm for sure
twilit phoenix
we'd shoot to the top of that list
glacial orbit
i agree with forever
glacial orbit
sub was turbo broken in amidrasil and people still avoided it like the plague
soft summit
Should sub have gotten a 5% buff this week? Yes
Would a 5% buff to the spec actu...
No it wouldn’t. Because sub rogue issue is not the dps numbers. It’s the enjoyability factor
twilit phoenix
we'd probably see triple sub comps in push keys
swift tinsel
we could talk about optimizing the perfect comp for sub damage
keen dome
No it wouldn’t. Because sub rogue issue is not the dps numbers. It’s the enjoyab...
But this is pretty subjective.
lilac stag
assa is turbo slapping in keys. When does the rise start? Asking for a friend.
glacial orbit
people just dont find it enjoyable
lucid jackal
Rogue is unpopular for a multitude of reasons.
Low key visuals, overall unintuitive design (which is what I enjoy about it)
swift tinsel
Plus
lucid jackal
The solution to these is make it flashier, which i dont personally fuck with, and simplify a lot of things
which I also dont want
swift tinsel
how many people have actually tried sub
keen dome
It goes further, too. Rogue is unpopular in high-end content. Rogue is quite popular in general content, esp on RP realms.
twilit phoenix
what is sub had wario fart animations
soft summit
But this is pretty subjective.
The chart shows it’s not subjective. Only 1 in 100 play sub. This shows it’s very unpopular despite it having great dps numbers. This proves it’s not a fun class to play for most people
glacial orbit
wasn't rogue one of the most popular classes in vanilla ?
twilit phoenix
instead of black powder it was a huge aoe fart around you
keen dome
The chart shows it’s not subjective. Only 1 in 100 play sub. This shows it’s ver...
Enjoyment is absolutely and always will be subjective.
swift tinsel
they can't grasp that
lilac stag
wasn't rogue one of the most popular classes in vanilla ?
Yeah because of world PvP videos
soft summit
The solution to these is make it flashier, which i dont personally fuck with, an...
No one is gonna play sub rogue if he gets more sparkles
swift tinsel
It's been pointed out quite a few times
keen dome
You can't point to a number and go "People don't play this because it's not enjoyable" which, while it may be a factor, is utterly unproveable.
swift tinsel
^^^
soft summit
wasn't rogue one of the most popular classes in vanilla ?
Sure was
glacial orbit
rogue in general is one of the most popular classes in rpg games
glacial orbit
so its not that people in general are not attracted to the concept
soft summit
The problem is 100% it’s not an enjoyable class to play for most people.
keen dome
Less than 1% of the player base get CE. The 99% don't because they don't enjoy Mythic raiding.
swift tinsel
dang based
lilac stag
Now do aotc
keen dome
Now do aotc
20%
lilac stag
In a complete sentence
swift tinsel
man 80% of players don't like heroic raiding
must not be fun
certainly nothing to do with the social aspect
or playtime commitments
glacial orbit
Less than 1% of the player base get CE. The 99% don't because they don't enjoy M...
they cannot play mythic you mean
swift tinsel
or dealing with progging
glacial orbit
if mythic was super easy more would do it
yeah it requires more time but difficulty is also a big factor
swift tinsel
eh
hexed sluice
What's the normal numbers?
hexed sluice
I know many people in guilds that spend most of the season progging normal
keen dome
What's the normal numbers?
I don't know how to find that out reliably.
bleak night
There are definitely people that could do CE and don’t because they just don’t find mythic progression fun
hexed sluice
Probably just the achievement for all bosses
keen dome
Because with CE / AoTc you have a distinct achievement. Normal doesn't have one. You could look at raid clear % but that will include CE / Heroic too.
bleak night
Idk what that number would look like though
swift tinsel
I loved wiping to bad bomb/beams on cauldron for almost 2 hours
hazy breach
@tepid trellis Not quite as good as you guys, but still pretty good 
glacial orbit
how many pulls did mugzee get you ?
keen dome
It's also including LFR data, but 16% going by Data for Azeroth
swift tinsel
Yuge, gratz!
keen dome
Which I don't know how accurate it is.
hazy breach
how many pulls did mugzee get you ?
95