subtlety

[swift tinsel]

And even then it’s not often

[slate marlin]

i use in top

when i go sub

[molten citrus]

cheap costs a global during burst

[hasty mirage]

macro #showtooltip
/cast [stance:0] Kidney shot;Cheap Shot

[paper iron]

Back in sl i pressed dance into 5 cheap

No biggy

[hasty mirage]

it will use cheap shot in shadow dance or kidney

[paper iron]

Now i unbound it

[hasty mirage]

so u can se the same keybind for both cheap and kidney

[slate marlin]

i use it mostly bc of the 2 magus

where people dont use cds

and some people slack kicks/cc

[tacit coral]

anyone know how to make the original luxthos weakaura display charges of sod?

[slate marlin]

better to lose burst than 15 seconds

[wide kernel]

thanks thats actually super useful. I'm correct in understanding i have to press that macro twice for both skills to be used right

[hasty mirage]

nope , press once

if ur in dance / stelth , it is a cheap shot

if ur out of stealth or dnce, it is a kidney ^^

[warm heron]

Hi is sub rouge "hard" to play,? Just started playing rouge and wanna give it a try.

[wide kernel]

if i'm out of shadow dance and kidney is on CD and I press it, what happens?

[swift tinsel]

Presumably nothing

[hasty mirage]

nothing 😄

[lucid jackal]

It's unintuitive I'd say

[swift tinsel]

No stealth/dance = no cheap shot

[lucid jackal]

But it's fairly easy

U learn what u need to do and it's kinda auto pilot

[swift tinsel]

Line up your cooldowns with timers, have fun

Big burst

[wide kernel]

there's around 16 seconds you get to do damage, if you miss a gcd during that time, its pretty bad

[warm heron]

Yikes

[swift tinsel]

Get it right and you’re rewarded with yuge dam

It’s really not bad at all

[warm heron]

I'll prob give it a go

[swift tinsel]

Practice the burst damage window until you can do it without thinking then you’re set

Since 85% of our damage is done in flag/blades

[wide kernel]

i think some good advice is be really careful and strict with your cd usage. If you watch reviews from top rogues who are helping new people, you see people popping blades / Flag somewhat randomly so it seems to be a new player mistake

[lucid jackal]

This is 99% of sub rogue

Logs don't tell u the rules

U need to actually understand what Ur doing

Your big burst is a script. You have to follow the script

[hasty mirage]

I got a question to ask , when im in big burst phase , during the second shadow dance, its kinda tight to get many stacks of dance macabre and i ususally use Sec tec when its 1 sec left on shadw blades, does that affect my sec tec clone atack damage? if the animation for them is out of the shadow blades CD?

[lucid jackal]

Learn the heuristics and the spec is easy

[wide kernel]

no as far as i know

[lucid jackal]

U don't optimize around danse

So ur question seems to come from a bad foundation

[hasty mirage]

when i use my second dance i go smth lke this " backstab,eviscerate,shadowstrike,rupture,symbols of death,shuriken storm, cold blood, secret technique"

if i get a coup i skip the rupture

[wide kernel]

I'm not sure / don't think you use rupture during 2nd dance

[hasty mirage]

i use it for an extra stack of dance macabre

thats not a rogue is it?

xD

what did my eyes just see

[swift tinsel]

Nope

You don’t game danse outside premed BS

Rupture in dance is wasted cp

[hasty mirage]

so shall i go with powder?

[swift tinsel]

If 7+ targets

[wide kernel]

if you are in shadow dance and to press shadow dance does it reset danse stacks?

[hasty mirage]

if not , what is the best scenario ? or just dont focus that much on dance macabre talent?

[swift tinsel]

You can’t dance during dance

[lucid jackal]

U should read the guide

[swift tinsel]

^

dont make up your own sub rules to gain imaginary damage from Danse Macabre

Not using Strike/Sectech/Evisc in favor of weak abilities is a waste

[hasty mirage]

noted

where can i check out the guide @lucid jackal ?:)

[wide kernel]

any idea why the raid build drops the rotten for finality?

[swift tinsel]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[hasty mirage]

cheers

[alpine wraith]

more dmg just plain and simple

also raid has no mass aoe

funny how rotten enables it better than the talent that buffs finishers kekw

[wide kernel]

rotten is for shuriken storm or something? because finality buffs BP as well

[alpine wraith]

yes to get FW

[wide kernel]

also is the method guide outdated or something? it mentions shuiken tornado and thistle tea build

[alpine wraith]

you can still play that one

[wide kernel]

yeah but its bad right?

[vale pine]

its not bad

but still not the best option

[slate marlin]

what happened with the dark brew build that simed the most in dslice

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[slate marlin]

would that be the play in a dungeon lke brew?

[vale pine]

the dark brew build from the sheet sims higher because of tfd

without the first dance, dark brew becomes stronger

[slate marlin]

yep

but in brewery

u barely have any tfd uptime

i remember having a conversation about it at some point here

so if im in a dungeon like brew where im not going to get tfd

would that build actualy do more dps

or tahts just in sims

[vale pine]

brew basically only loses out slightly in single target

[wide kernel]

does vanish drop combat?

[slate marlin]

hmm i see

[paper iron]

i think it s something like weaponmaster is the only replacement to tfd, and you would have to be in fight for 15mn without casting shuriken storm once to beat tfd

[slate marlin]

is there anything in that build that i could drop for 3rd charge of sod?

[paper iron]

i ve heard something close to that

[vale pine]

only in dungeons, not during boss fights

[paper iron]

on cinderbrew you have at least 4 tfd guaranteed, can easily fish for more

[slate marlin]

after 1st boss, 2nd boss, 3rd boss, and 4 mobs before last boss

[paper iron]

so that said, tfd > wm

[slate marlin]

that build doesnt take wm

[wide kernel]

when there's mobs at like 5% hp and you know a pull is coming soon that works for tfd right?

[vale pine]

tfd is kinda like a in between pack thing, you would probably wait for 1-2 sec in stealth if the proc is close

[worn ivy]

last pinned message was nearly 2months ago and its not even about subtlety 😦

where is sub buffs??????

[proven plover]

Did any one of you guys hear anything about pi applying to more than 1 target (excluding the priest)

[low pagoda]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[slate marlin]

they have 1 talent that if u pi another person, u also pi yourself

[proven plover]

Yes i mean besides the priest

It happened to friends of mine, they Played a key with 1 of them being a priest

And in one Instance during the dungeon, the priest pid the boomie, but the mage also got it

[fringe palm]

do you have a log or vod?

[proven plover]

Yes sec

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ybTmJaMKBF9tXZkG?fight=last&type=auras&position=1350322&start=4829777&end=4837681&ability=10060

[fringe palm]

interesting

seems to happen randomly since pi autotargets but noone knows why or how to replicate it

[latent finch]

Had that a few times because i play group with sp. We thought it had maybe something to do with his tset procing at the same them then he pressing pi.

But seems like it just random

But tbh before fixing that just delete pi all together its just annoying for everyone involved

[remote kayak]

yo this HeroRotation really helps with sub rotation?

[hallow scaffold]

struggling sub rogue here, after the opener and while wiating on SB/Flag to come up, do i just sit on symbols until Sectec can be sent unless im about to cap 3 charges then send it solo, and how does Dance work with all this now, i used to just dance/symbols together in a macro but from all the guides ive been reading, this is now wrong.

[molten citrus]

!cds

[wicked jolt]

Cooldown Use:
Every 90 seconds you want to cast Flagellation and subsequently Shadow Blades. When these two are up you always want cast 2 Symbols of Death, 2 Shadow Dances and 2 Secret Techniques.
To ensure you have enough cooldown reduction on your Shadow Dance to attain that you need atleast 1 charge and roughly 40 seconds left on your second charge before casting Flagellation.

[molten citrus]

you can usually get 2 dance/symbols in between your big CDs, than 1 dance/symbols between, then 2, then 1, and so on

[molten citrus]

doubtful

[wide kernel]

In m+ generally what my rule is. Is to not spend a dance/symbols with 30s or less on the timer remaining for flag/blades there's a lot of nuance depending on cdr though

For raid I'm a lot more hesitant to use it, feels like the rule is 40s remaining

[hallow scaffold]

thanks

[hallow scaffold]

so we really do sit out of dance quite a bit then, and im probably using it way more than i should

[wide kernel]

Your goal is to have two dances just barely accessible by the time flag/blades is up

There's a lot of finesse to it because each dungeon is different and each tank pulls differently. Like I will have flag/sb up and just use 1 dance symbols if a pack is too small even and delay the big cds

[empty cargo]

Can someone explain the difference from dungeon slice & the patchwerk sim options on raidbots?

[short radish]

14 motherlode. who says sub is still bin tier

me. i say that.

[short radish]

patchwerk is hitting one mob without moving or doing any mechanics

dungeonslice is an emulation of a m+ key

i forget the exact parameters around it but its something like

12 target for 40 seconds, 5 target for 30 then a boss for 2 minutes

or something like that

dungeon slice only really works for rogues

[empty cargo]

So it’s not like what your overall score should be for a timed key?

[short radish]

no

and neither should your sim dps

represent what you see in raid

[empty cargo]

Sweet thanks for clearing that up 👍🏼

[short radish]

you use sims to decide on what gear to use

but outside of maybe sprocket

you wont ever see sim dps

[empty cargo]

That’s insane damage by the way, very nice

[short radish]

tyty

tank did some big pulls

i may have unethically black powdered

but fuck uhdk

if they can aoe why cant we

and fmages

[empty cargo]

2.4 is my highest but I normally stay around 2. I also have never timed anything over a 7 or 8

[short radish]

you can do it mate!

just takes more practice

you start to figure out when you can hold and when you can send

[empty cargo]

How many ruptures do you spread on big aoe pulls with your cds?

[short radish]

(the answer is to usually never hold)

[short radish]

one

which is in the opener anyway

because the quicker you opener

the quicker you burst

the more time you hvae to do your big sectech at the end

before all the yucky aoe classes take the pad

[empty cargo]

lol. Well thanks for the tips brother. Ggz

[short radish]

no wokkas

gl with it

with damage in keys as well

it's also kinda moot if its timed

if its not timed and youre below everyone then maybe look at issues

but if you time it

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[empty cargo]

👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼

[hearty steeple]

Hello, What do u mean by here? Are we required to nuke the big/stubborn mob?

[short radish]

do you want the ethical answer?

or the fun answer

[hearty steeple]

Yea

Both

[short radish]

sub rogue has really good prio damage

so you should do your ST rotation into the large target

so the pack dies evenly

if theres like 15 mobs though

better bet im pressing black powder

[hearty steeple]

Lol ofc

[short radish]

im usually ethical under 9 or 10 targets

[wide kernel]

Gz on the parse.

[short radish]

ty

[wide kernel]

Seems like it's such a struggle bus to get above 3.5 as sub. I was in a really nice priory where I felt like I could have seen above 4

[young mural]

yo

nice work

[short radish]

cheers

[short radish]

i think if you get fucked on a big pull

and youre caught with your pants down no flag sblade

its just jover

gotta decide being ethical or hodling

[bleak night]

ethics are a trap

acquire overall

[short radish]

based

[tribal blade]

probably the hardest part about playing sub in keys

cd management

it's super complex compared to sin

[wide kernel]

Bro as sub you have more agency than the tank or healer whether a group wipes sometimes

[short radish]

If I don't press dance with 100mill left on the pack, it'll take 20 seconds to die

If I do press dance it does in 5 seconds

Schroedinger shadow dance

[wide kernel]

What I hate are the packs that are too low hp for flag but too high hp for 1x dance

[short radish]

Or flag has 13 seconfs off cooldown, but if you don't press dance all the small mobs will die

[wide kernel]

Such is life as a sub rogue

[brisk onyx]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[wide kernel]

If I wasn't pushing keys and my own prog so much I am super curious about DS funnel damage, that alone kinda makes me wonder if DS isn't optimal for certain bosses or dungeons

[short radish]

Please do not wonder. DS is best left in the grave

[wide kernel]

It's like 100-200k less than trickster, no? Wouldn't any unique applications for it mean it is optimal theoretically, somewhere / why does everyone hate DS?

[lucid jackal]

Because its bad

Trickster makes the spec feel better to play with the added CDR

DS only adds clunk

You also have to do some really weird shit with it in AOE because spending the DN isn't worth it or something

[short radish]

yeah

DS is just a mental dps loss

even when its numerically ahead

[twilit phoenix]

deathstalker is for chuds

[young mural]

kek

CHCUD

[wide kernel]

What cdr is trickster giving you?

[young mural]

coup extra CPs

[short radish]

10% sectech

[young mural]

https://tenor.com/view/dancing-duck-dance-duck-duck-ooontz-dance-gif-10943740227711557279

[short radish]

also yeah that

[young mural]

it ends up being quite a lot of extra cdr

[short radish]

also having to play with the mark

i'd rather just uninstall the game

[rocky ocean]

mark isnt as bad as it was last season

[muted birch]

deathstalker is coming back to sub ? ;o

[young mural]

no

ignore it all

[muted birch]

ok

[young mural]

chat started because someone said "deathstalker might be good for funnel damage in M+" which is a outrageous statement

st gain for deathstalker is low

[muted birch]

what

XD

ok now I get why you angry

thats an understatment

tho I do wish for all the hero specs to be equally viable in next patch

in last tier

i liked to swap between tricks and ds

[rocky ocean]

never gonna happen

[twilit phoenix]

Sub ds feels like doody caca poopy diaper diarrhea stinky splatter

[short radish]

most accurate description of deathstalker

[wide kernel]

I asked if there might be applications for dungeons for it's kit

[young mural]

sorry, thats how i interpreted what you said and im not willing to change my mind

anyways

@short radish what numbers do you see on big pack bursts?

like for example, 1st pack in cinderbrew

really high target counts just feel very underwhelming for me as sub

[wide kernel]

I've seen 15

If you do whole room of mechagon casualaddict was doing over 20 in 655~ gear

[young mural]

yhea its over for me

[short radish]

i think first pack of big pull mechagon i ended up at 15mill

but i was pressing black powder

[young mural]

never seen those kinds of numbers, i get 15/16 at peak of burst

then just tragically goes down

and im pressing BP and applying find weakness with shuriken storm in 1st dance global

on really target counts

idk what to do

[short radish]

just sub life things

tbh i dont think i blasted because i was good

but i blasted because the mage and dk were average

sometimes it do be like that

packs dying at perfect time when cds end

[wide kernel]

I can show the video where casual gets 20 if you guys want

Was without a shaman too iirc

[young mural]

if you could send it to me, i'd be very grateful

[short radish]

you can also press your dance afterwards pretty quickkly after your blades burst

so you keep pot

[young mural]

i need to see what type of shit he's doing

[young mural]

wdym

[young mural]

press dance very quickly after 1st dance ends?

[wide kernel]

Am I allowed to post videos here

[short radish]

i mean 2nd dance

[short radish]

i think its fine

[young mural]

yup

especially sub-related videos are fine

[short radish]

so you sorta press dance while you have your 2nd symbols rolling

after your sblades flag

and you keep up your stacks as well

[wide kernel]

So yes

It was without a shaman

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xp3KPyuwamM&t=54s

At peak he hits over 20m

So the ceiling is actually higher

[rocky ocean]

and no shaman 💀

[young mural]

press dance right after flag and blades run out correct?

so you kind of keep the burst rolling?

[short radish]

yeah

[young mural]

if thats what youre saying yhea i do that

[short radish]

i maybe throw in one or two ruptures after that

to keep stack

[twilit phoenix]

keep the burst rolling? outlaw is that way buddy

[young mural]

cmon somni boy

youre the goat btw

[twilit phoenix]

i'm not the goat but I'm happy that you're smashing on sub

[short radish]

because you still want to sectech in that 3rd dance

[young mural]

ill never forget you for analyzing my logs

you were the 1st one to correct my mistakes

cmon

homie kissing is outta pocket

[young mural]

yup

lemme check this casual addict's video

[wide kernel]

I see about 15m in brew myself but I think I can do more personally

[young mural]

yhea

i just hit 12.2m peak burst on dummies

5 target

idk if thats the best i can do but its something

[fringe geyser]

!prekey

[young mural]

maybe stack supercharger? by using symbols?

idk

[rocky ocean]

I put poisons pre key

[short radish]

i forget and put them on in the middle of a boss fight

[tribal blade]

cast time for poisons is so toxic

[keen dome]

Poison! Toggle!

[wide kernel]

what is with the second rupture in the wowhead sub rogue guide? are we suppose to do it? is it suppose to represent spreading rupture, or?

[hazy breach]

Well its on different targets

[wide kernel]

i understand that, but is it a dps increase to do two ruptures?

i suppose it actually doesnt matter that much right because flag lasts for 24 seconds right?

[hazy breach]

if the targets you are spreading it to are going to outlive your cooldowns yes

[wide kernel]

whats like the limit on that then?

[hazy breach]

However many targets you have

But like, theres never a situation where you have more than like 10 targets which you actually care equally about thats all gonna live through your cooldowns

[wide kernel]

thanks

what is the gcd length of sub at 2% haste, any idea?

[zenith prism]

always 1s

[wide kernel]

even under shadow dance?

[hazy breach]

All energy classes always have 1 second gcd, it does not scale with haste

[wide kernel]

i see

[hazy breach]

The only exception is outlaw gets -0.2s during adrenaline rush (that ironically nowadays scale with haste, its -0.2s at 25% haste)

[wide kernel]

if you get a third dance/symbols after blades ends, is it optimal to spend it under the mastery buff?

[hazy breach]

If you can still get sectech as your first or second finisher ye

[wide kernel]

what i mean is, in your opener with CDR there is a third dance after your major cd's finish there stuff, during this time you still have the mastery buff from flag right

i can spend the third dance on that, or use some of the ramp time from flag spreading rupture

hope that makes sense

[lucid jackal]

If the rules related to symbols and sectec are met yeah, dance again

But that's nothing to do with the flag buff, that's just the normal spec rules

[tribal blade]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Enksy5xF2q0

kush is literally gapping both the other 2 dps by 1 mil

as udk

absolutely illegal

but this makes me feel good, i timed a 15 WS today and did as much dmg as gingi playing sin in there

[hazy breach]

Perfect blood beast on first pull

[tribal blade]

40 mil burst opener

[hazy breach]

Thats like 25% of his damage

Because workshop is silly

[tribal blade]

humongous

i think i fully transitioned to sin, that 15 WS was my last key i needed for sin IO

[hazy breach]

Its more of a showcase how stupid overall is in workshop tbh, but ye unholy strong with perfect rng

Slightly less so on reset

[tribal blade]

very true

@hazy breach have you started seriously pushing yet

or taking it easy till a bit later

[hazy breach]

nop

[tribal blade]

cool cool

[paper iron]

[vestal escarp]

Dead class

[tribal blade]

dead spec*

sin is aight

[dry plank]

Is it?

[tribal blade]

yes sin is very good in keys atm

i'm regularly topping dps in every key i do

[hazy breach]

Its definitely aight in raids too

Not the best, but def alright

[tribal blade]

yeah it's not bad in raid

all 3 rogue specs aren't exactly stellar in raid atm

but rogue has historically had 1-2 high performing specs per tier

so if this is our tier to be mid, that's the way it is

just like blizz wants to put aug in the gutter this tier

(thank god)

[severe prism]

am i playing correctly if sectec is late on the second SD (like not 1st or 2nd spender) when sending everything ? Like as long as it is used with a supercharged combo i'm fine ? I'm doubting for some reasons

[tribal blade]

so long as the clones hit within dance you're good

can get very sketchy if you lose uptime for whatever reason during cds

[short radish]

just remember to try delay your symbols

so it is within the super charged combo

[wild hornet]

12 rookery, couldve been better

[short radish]

timed it and beat the other stinky dps

well done

[tribal blade]

huge

i've tried so many 15 rookeries

every single one of them fails in the corridors before 2nd boss

because people fall over

[wild hornet]

tank died on the 2nd pack

[tribal blade]

one of the last rooks i tried the tank fell over too

just parry more 4head

[wild hornet]

or just take less dmg

5hed

at least the pulls felt a bit better towards my cds

not some pepe chainpulling

[tribal blade]

sin has been kind of bonkers in rookery for me

in every single one i've attempted i end overall at least 500k above the 2nd highest

at most like 2mil more overall

[wild hornet]

idk i dont like sin at all

[tribal blade]

fair enough

[wild hornet]

at most id switch to outlaw

sin gameplay feels like im sleeping

[tribal blade]

the new build everyone is running is actually very fun

big bleed vibes

[wild hornet]

wasnt that shit in

shadowlands?

[tribal blade]

nah that's something completely different

[wild hornet]

w the bleed build

did sin get a new talent or what

[tribal blade]

nah they buffed some talents and stuff like rupture

so the bleed build gained more damage

[wild hornet]

yeah probably fair enough

[wild hornet]

after getting your sdance removed

[tribal blade]

no kingsbane which is a big W

[wild hornet]

oh fr?

i never liked kingsbane

[tribal blade]

this is the most fun i've ever had playing sin

[wild hornet]

im actually inclined on trying it

but idk how to play sin

[tribal blade]

the major thing about playing this build in particular is understanding how to spread bleeds with IC

and planning your vanish usage around the dungeon

that's a thing with playing the hybrid build too, but i think with this build that becomes even more important

[wild hornet]

is it even used in raids

im kinda used to vanish being a filler for sstrike

[tribal blade]

this? nah not at all

[wild hornet]

or to reset bte cd

[tribal blade]

it's a big aoe build

not a ST build

vanish is a massive dps cd for this build

[wild hornet]

oh right

the double garrote/rupture thing

?

[tribal blade]

it's triple

[wild hornet]

with whatever this is called

[tribal blade]

yeah

[wild hornet]

triple?

is there a diff talent u take now

cause iirc it was 2 when i tried it

[tribal blade]

applies 3 of them

this is probably the hardest part about playing sin in aoe

takes a while to get used to how to properly play with it

but once you get this down the rest is pretty alright

it kinda requires you to know the route, how your tank is pulling

and knowing when to come out of stealth

and when to wait

[wild hornet]

pug hell build

[tribal blade]

on lower keys yeah prob

on higher keys it's not bad

tanks are less brain dead on higher keys

[wild hornet]

i beg to differ on that one

ive seen some animals including myself

[lilac stag]

It’s fine in pugs. You are over thinking it.

If you want to try to max IC sure, but at point it’s already going to be better than a ton of specs without minmaxing vanish

Every spec that has a CD has to do this.

[vestal escarp]

Sin is fine in keys but my problem with it is the unnecessary complexity compared to other classes

Like brother sin is supposed to be the popular and gateway spec

And yet to compete on dmg with meta guys like boomie udk and ret has to do like 3 times the effort

Dk is pressing dnd and then spamming 2 buttons

Ret is ret

Boomie is not even pressing builders anymore and multidotting way less compared to past builds

[keen dome]

I dunno who this is but they're my new hero

[ionic vector]

Hi, I noticed that on the Wowhead's sub ST guide that during the start of CD's it is normal to send the first sec tech on the first supercharger, then on the 2nd cold blood sec tech you send it preferably on the second supercharger, is there a reason for why we wouldn't delay the first sec tech a finisher so that it can also be sent on the second supercharger proc? Is this related to timings of the cds or dmg? I would appreciate any clarifications even if it is a dumb question!

[leaden plover]

much love Gestalt ❤️

[brittle plinth]

Iirc, You're delaying it to allow your buffs to ramp. With cdr on sectech, you can very safely expect to use two in that window.

[hazy breach]

The first supercharger point and the second supercharger point are the same thing, its not like the first one gives more cp or anything

You just want to send sectech when its ready in dance

[pastel rampart]

you use the first sectech as the first finisher in dance with the first supercharger buff to get it on cooldown as soon as possible, which allows your future spenders to start giving sectech CDR, you use the 2nd sectech on the 2nd supercharger of the 2nd dance only because it is assumed you would get the CD on sectech to reset at that point. if your 2nd sectech is up for the 1st supercharger of the 2nd dance then u send it earlier, theres no benefit to waiting as ur well and truly at 30 flag stacks

as long as u are pressing ur sectech on a supercharged combo point during ur shadow dance both times during flag/blades u are gucci

[ionic vector]

From my perspective with this information the supercharger question was answered, thank you for this. Though another relating question was sparked from this, would sending sec tech on the 2nd supercharger not give flag (1st sec tech), winning streak and danse the opportunity to stack?

[hazy breach]

It would indeed increase the damage of the first sectech if you delayed it

[tribal blade]

is it actually? i barely play other specs anymore

it's funny because the bleed sin build feels super chill to me

so it's hard to think that there are other specs out there doing even less work

[hazy breach]

But sectech isnt our only damage source, casting sectech increases all of our other damage significantly because it gives 1 flawless stacks, gives 2 guaranteed unseen blade procs (which does good damage and its 2 more flawless stacks), it applies fazed (which is mostly relevant on aoe) and it also just gives a macabre stack

So delaying sectech means you lose unseen blades in your cds, which means you likely lose coup in your cds

Which means you lose a lot of flawless stacks

And just the fact that youre missing out on a lot of cdr if youre sitting on sectech

So its possible you would miss out on a cast of it inbetween your cds too

[ionic vector]

So I'm interpreting your explanation as the dmg from sending it out first far surpasses the dmg from stacking and whatnot from sending it out 2nd

Thank you for answering my questions as ik you didnt have to

[vestal escarp]

From a rog pov esp one that has played it for long not at all

[plush roost]

Idk man assa feels very simple to me rn. Apply bleeds, ct, spam envenom and refresh

[vestal escarp]

I didn't want to say that it's hard to play

It's unnecessarily harder than other meta classes

So

Whatever

But even in the playgroud level rog has to be different

[tribal blade]

interesting

i have heard stories about udk being completely brain dead 2 button

[vestal escarp]

It is

Legit im alting one

Boomie also

[tribal blade]

not sure how boomy continues to be so good every season recently

[vestal escarp]

Ret is well, ret

Mm also is just playing trickshot and doing silly numbers with explosive shot interaction with it

[plush roost]

Boomkins always been good in higher keys with longer Multitarget pulls.

They also just decided to buff their st 3 patches in a row

[vestal escarp]

Yeah but boomie is sunfiring way less atm

[hazy breach]

Atleast they nerfed their aoe this time

[vestal escarp]

Which is a huge qol for them

Dunno if it's due to tuning or some specific design of this tier

They literally pressing sungire only for times in brewery first pull

The chef the iron muscle and the two casters

[tribal blade]

i feel like it would take a lot of iterations to bring sub to that level of simplicity

not saying that i would want sub to be that simple

[plush roost]

S2 dragonflight

That was simplicity

Storm powder spam

Gloomblade spam

[vestal escarp]

[hazy breach]

Even then, you still had stuff like premed strikes & sectech second finisher

[plush roost]

Hell we didn't even take flag cause dark brew was bugged with sec tec

[hazy breach]

And tons of people were doing terrible singletarget

Because they didnt know how to play it, they just heard its storm+bp in aoe

[plush roost]

Ya true making sure to use premed for slice n dice was pretty important and using secret tech right

[hazy breach]

Like ye its probably the simplest sub has been in a while, but it still had a bunch of things to do

[plush roost]

But idk that was a very simple time

It was good simple tho, i got my first CE with that build great entry to mythic content

[tribal blade]

remember when we hit S3

i honestly think the nightmare of relearning reworked sub was actually really good for me, it's now easier for me to learn new specs in general

[plush roost]

I took a break from october to february so I missed a ton of the initial rework moments lol

So i came back and the spec was figured out haha

[tribal blade]

this channel was blowing up with people losing their minds

poor fuu was getting spammed with DMs

[rapid oasis]

Quick question about stat targets. Is there a rough guideline to be aiming for? On a related note, how much better is vers for us compared to crit?

[tribal blade]

get as much vers and mast as possible, haste blows, crit is fine

[plush roost]

Raidbots is your friend, 20-22% crit ig

[vestal escarp]

Ask sims

[rapid oasis]

But how do you ask sims? I dont think simming every piece of upgrade ever is the best solution

[hazy breach]

Why would it not be

[plush roost]

I just use top gear and sim every piece that would be remotely competitive

[vestal escarp]

If you have some stuff in bags run top gear, if not run droptimizer

[rapid oasis]

Because it takes time and I'd like to have a rough shorthand to work with before verifying with a sim

[hazy breach]

rough shorthard is ilvl

[rapid oasis]

Even if it has haste on it?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[rapid oasis]

Huh

[plush roost]

Agility is very strong

[hazy breach]

Because agility good

[lilac stag]

@tepid trellis @pliant topaz

[hazy breach]

Stats also dont matter nearly as much as people think

[lilac stag]

stats are just an excuse for poor play.

[rapid oasis]

That's good to know. Would it be a dumb idea to craft gear with mastery+crit so I can swap off to sin if I wanted to without losing much?

[hazy breach]

or craft vers+mastery

Doesnt matter either way

[plush roost]

Yeah it will be a negligible difference between the 2

[rapid oasis]

That's fantastic to hear. So basically get ilvl as a priority above all else, for specific questions, go sim it first and then ask questions if something looks off or more help is needed interpreting results

[plush roost]

Yeah i would sim first confirm assumptions/questions you may have and if things still look off ask questions

[tribal blade]

i'm using a bunch of vers+mast gear in my sin set

still doing good numbers

[plush roost]

Yeah im like 26% crit, 59% mast 15% haste, 9% verse on my sin set and i have rank 11 OaB haha

Stats are w.e, hitting correct globals is what matters

[tribal blade]

i'm roughly there too, i just have less haste than you

[plush roost]

Cinderbrew neck op

Hehe

[tribal blade]

i'm using the crit/vers one 😉

[vestal escarp]

Since i dropped rotten in ST robot told me to swap a lot of vers for crit

[tribal blade]

since mine has avoidance

[plush roost]

That actually makes a lot of sense

[tribal blade]

same thing happens when you drop CB

i did sims during DF for tea over CB

and once you dropped CB the sims wanted you to get more crit

[lilac stag]

Dslice doesn’t want me to recraft off versamastery

[tribal blade]

oh interesting

[plush roost]

On assa or sub?

[lilac stag]

assa

[tribal blade]

my sim wanted me to immediately get way more haste after swapping to bleed from hybrid

[plush roost]

Bleed build or kb ?

[lilac stag]

who the fuck is playing KB?

[plush roost]

Haha truth

[tribal blade]

psychopaths

[vestal escarp]

Unfunnies

[lilac stag]

I legit put on the vers haste boots and it’s like you gucci

[plush roost]

Yeah when i simmed dslice on bleed i added like 9k haste and dropped 7k verse lmfao

[lilac stag]

that shit really don’t matter

[plush roost]

Well it was like 250k dslice diff so it kinda mattered but yeah

[lilac stag]

My 2% haste ST setup beating assa mains in parses hyper focused on stats.

[plush roost]

Just play better 5head

[tribal blade]

i was all for getting more haste because it makes energy less bad in ST

[lilac stag]

fun note, you can really just pump mastery in bleeder which is what I think I unlocked

Energy drink is crack

[plush roost]

Myth pacemaker with a haste/mast heavy setup

Man does that go hard

[lilac stag]

So does Tea for sub.

[tribal blade]

haste is good because bleeds tick faster

[tribal blade]

yeah i'm kinda the same

[plush roost]

Lowkey the worst part is that because im not at 32+% crit in some pulls I'm pressing Fok like 3 times in a row cause no crits

And no momentum

Cursed

[keen dome]

I might craft another neck when I get the next spark and make it crit/mast for this build

[tribal blade]

y e s

i have this problem too

but honestly your bleeds are doing most of the work already

so it's not a big deal

[keen dome]

Yeah

Big ticks

[tribal blade]

you're doing big dam just existing

[plush roost]

Yeah but like it definitely feels bad when you're reupping ruptures

And you just fok 3 times when they're ticking odd

[tribal blade]

yeah that's the worst time for sure

if you wanna do it fast i suppose you can just rupture on less than 5 Cps

but then your demises are less juicy

[keen dome]

do love a juicy demise

Was playing it in 10's earlier with buddies and every key was "lmao look at the SD damage guys"

[plush roost]

Mfw we pull first boss of cinder brew with the yellow patrons and my on pull dps is 15m because sudden demise proc on them all

Hehe get rekt nerds

My pad

(its actually annoying cause i lose 20% agility)

[tribal blade]

you get a 5 stack CT off on the boss which is the big part;)

[random hare]

Your rupturing wrong

You can always guarantee 4-5

I always get 5

I can show u later how to if ur interested

[hallow scaffold]

19% Crit (4601), 7% Haste (4922), 96% mast (21900), 14% Vers (10655). 62670 Agi. 656 ilvl, can only do about 1.46m on the kelpfist dummy, no buffs. is my vers just dogging me during non burst windows? i think im doing everything correct. i dont have logs or anything just details so this prolyl isnt much to go on for help.

[hazy breach]

100000% its not a stat issue if youre doing low damage

[jaunty umbra]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/933386399279878154/991343673419763753/caption.gif

[hazy breach]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals of during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[plush roost]

On the 34m hp patrons that die in 5 seconds? Im interested in your methods

Also fk u zeross i was 30k dps less than u in my darkflame 16 log

[hazy breach]

Probably includes keeping them outside with roots/slows

[plush roost]

Hmmmm

Its my bed time zeross but like I'd love to pick your brain on that later, missed cinder 17 by 30 seconds today:(

[rapid torrent]

hi all, assa enjoyer here trying to learn sub for the first time and had a question about builders in 3+ targets. I've heard to only shuriken storm on 3+ when flawless form is active and to backstab when its down. Is this only to refresh flawless form, or does storm interact with flawless form somehow?

[hazy breach]

its to refresh it

But its only for low target counts, and it doesnt matter that much

If you use BP instead of evis at like 4 targets when flawless isnt up its very similar (flawless is up like 90% of the time so its very rare)

[random hare]

I don’t log my keys it was just logged by a random pug by chance

[plush roost]

Thats oki i just saw a zeross log and was curious how i compared

[naive hawk]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[brittle plinth]

Based on the convos, should we rename sub channel to assa-chat?

[slate marlin]

sin

[jaunty heath]

You could do that 3-4 weeks into any season tbh

[slate marlin]

so we have assa and sin, and people can discus assassination depending on how they prefer to call it

[jaunty heath]

That’s just our burden to carry

[brittle plinth]

This big brained

[old venture]

sub rogues out here pretending like they weren't the go to spec after week 2 in Dragonflight

[keen dome]

Sublime chat

[plush roost]

When hell freezes over and we all migrate to outlaw

That will be the day shitposting prevails

[paper iron]

are u guys impressed by my rota or what?

[old venture]

11 out of 10

nice colors

[paper iron]

tyty

[old venture]

high quality icons

[paper iron]

almost done with the coat

ALMOST

[old venture]

[paper iron]

1000 more papers

1h then GONE

[old venture]

I started farming it

[vale pine]

s1 yes, s3 week 4 or so

[old venture]

and ngl I wanted to cry

[old venture]

sub rogue suffered from success of being played by no one

[vale pine]

true ninja rotation

[old venture]

[vale pine]

hey, i am no-one

[paper iron]

if we even need an apl for a tricks fight style mode in raidbot

call me

i ve mastered it

[old venture]

[warm heron]

Do we wanna use secrettech on cd?

[paper iron]

have fun, it s like 10h pretty chill with good music

[old venture]

I don't have that kind of attention span

[paper iron]

or 25h of S.C.R.A.P.

[old venture]

[lucid jackal]

best spec in season 1, and 2 of DF
best spec on the last 3 in season 3. Best spec overall post sin nerf
best spec last tier, until sin buffs and the raid no longer actually requiring important damage checks on queen

[paper iron]

he was forced to play sub

[brittle plinth]

I started game 3 weeks ago

None of that means anything to me

[vestal escarp]

S1 df only until after .5
S2 sin got buffetld a bit before .7 and it was the go to spec

[old venture]

assa got gutted literally week 2 of raid

[lucid jackal]

In the 0.7?????

Bro said 2 years into the patch

[old venture]

and outlaw was just not a good progress spec

because no burst

[lucid jackal]

I mean outlaw was the best spec for most of vault

but most ppl just played sub after they deleted exsang

[paper iron]

Exsang bullshit in S1 kek

made me hate assa

[old venture]

grimtooters was the only boss outlaw was good for and even then

[paper iron]

exsang and dust gone are the 2 best things ever

[old venture]

and I guess sennarth

[lucid jackal]

dathea, grimtotem, sennarth, diurna

People can cope all they want about outlaw that tier

[old venture]

dathea didn't exist

stop pretending it existed

[paper iron]

diurna add duty before sub buff or something

[lucid jackal]

[vestal escarp]

If we gotta go nerdge ackshtually at least do it properly

[old venture]

you guys got put on add duty on broodkeeper?

[lucid jackal]

yeah and I fucking cranked

[old venture]

must be nice

vault was a horrible raid for me

[paper iron]

nah i was assa sitting on the boss

[old venture]

I got sent up on platforms on dathea playing an M+ build because our prot pally couldn't figure out how to hold divine toll for 3 seconds

[paper iron]

chilling

[old venture]

they "needed" my iron wire

sick fucking prog for me man

[paper iron]

the other rogue was sub and on adds

[paper iron]

WTF

i ve never heard that sentence ever, specially in raid

[old venture]

ask @tepid trellis

NOTICE SOMETHING FUN ABOUT THOSE TALENTS?

FOR RAID?

[tepid trellis]

[old venture]

I cast vanish 4 times in that 8:30 minutes

[paper iron]

LUL

[old venture]

because I had to hold it for platforms

because our prot pally was too busy trying to DPS parse

[paper iron]

i was outlaw

[old venture]

so he'd just land and slam divine toll before the casts started

[paper iron]

i aint holding a shit but boon

😎

[old venture]

and interrupt nothing

[paper iron]

and cloak uu

[old venture]

so all our kicks had to do the initial kick

and we had no other kicks for casts lmao

dark times

so naturally I quit wow after rasz died

and got recruited from the clutches of freedom

[paper iron]

no wonder

playing iw in raid

for dathea

[old venture]

after they forced me to prog anduin in sepulcher

[vocal crypt]

Do we get a catalyst charge nxt week ?

[twilit phoenix]

Yep

[hallow yacht]

I am still a bit confused on the 7+ target rotation outside of SD.. Is it simply SS > BP repeat until I do SD again?

Assuming I have SnD/Rupture up.

[hazy breach]

Storm into bp yes

[hallow yacht]

Also, for example, if all the trash is pulled at the start of Workshop. Is it realistic to get Rupture on ALL of then? At what point should I just throw it on a few and then go into my normal rotation?

[long wolf]

Is it a great dps loss to sometimes shuriken storm instead of shadowstrike in big packs like mechagon 1st?

[dense forge]

whats the reason for immediately going into the second shadow dance as soon as the first one is over during the opener and burst window

is there a drawback from like waiting for a moment before going into the second dance

[alpine wraith]

there is no reason to stop

also to not lose stacks of the tier

[shy scarab]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[dense forge]

alright i see

[silent ruin]

You want all 16 seconds of blades to superimpose on dance = 2 dances

[dense forge]

bet

[earnest rover]

Anyone got some Vid recommendations for sub rogue this season? i havent played rogue since end DF/beginning TW and im still used to Shadowdust (ik its removed)

[alpine wraith]

i have some but you can also read the guides that are written

[earnest rover]

its more bout the situational stuff like raids/m+ that i wanna learn about. im currently getting used to the wowhead rota on training dummy but its nothing compared to the real combat iykyk

[lucid jackal]

Real combat is the same

You just need to use your thinking cap on how to move dance and or sod on a fight

If needed

[twilit phoenix]

me when I put on my thinking cap

[lucid jackal]

Is this linkara

No that's vinesauce right

[midnight perch]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[zenith hollow]

whats the rule for sectech outside of dance windows as long as you get it back before your next dance?

[chrome palm]

You would only do this before a blades window, when you know you’ll have symbols and sectech available for blades even if you use them beforehand, but the same isn’t true of dance

For instance: 1 dance, 50s on recharge; 1 symbols, 10s on recharge; sec tech available; 25s on flagellation
You should symbols+sechtech, because it will allow for an extra cast, give you more cdr on dance, and will not interfere with your blades window

[chilly patio]

I'm noticing some situations where dance is at 1 charge and ~10 seconds away from a second charge, and flag/blades are 20-30 seconds left on cd. Which of these is better:

a) overcap on dance charges/cd to guarantee 2 for the blades/flag window

or b) spend a dance to prevent overcap and only have 1 for the blades/flag

[hazy breach]

That shouldnt be happening to begin with

[chilly patio]

Why not? Dance cd is variable based on proc rng giving you extra combo points, right? Wouldn't this have a chance of happening sometimes?

How would you prevent it?

[autumn glade]

Sounds like you missed a mini burst window entirely

Pure speculation though without knowing if you’re talking about raid, M+ or seeing a log. Only way you’d be overcapping really is just not following the normal cadence for big and mini burst windows

[chilly patio]

It only really seems to happen on long pulls (8+ minutes) - if i try to fit in an extra dance window in filler, i end up having my 2nd dance in blades have 10-15 seconds left on cd

Forcing me to delay it and potentially pushing it out of blades

I'll see if i can find an example in my logs

[silent ruin]

Just run a sim for 8 minutes n see sim output, n difference between what you are doing

[solar geode]

my guild is currently progging hc gallywix, and theres a bit at like 3 minutes where my cds come off cooldown, and the ads and gallywix are seperate, how should i use my cds there?

[chilly patio]

Here's an example from my gallywix heroic kill, the last blades window specifically. I spent a 2nd filler shadowdance right before to prevent overcap (which, based on the 1-2-1-2 thing, should've been correct?) but only had one charge going into the blades. May have been due to uptime foibles though

[lucid jackal]

There is not enough proc variance to move the needle

[hazy breach]

Theres a dance missing after second ones in burst

Esp on pull

[chilly patio]

I should always be sending a 3rd dance after burst then? Gotcha

[hazy breach]

Well if sectech is ready

And you can dance and symbols

Then you go

[chilly patio]

Gotcha gotcha, have been holding until danger of overcap until i get more familiar with add spawn timings but will start sending instead

[fluid moth]

It looked like the top sub parse held their 2nd flag / blades burst for until 1:45 then used blades on CD after that

[wild hornet]

flag on cd and theres a pull timer

[tepid trellis]

shouldnt have pressed rdy then

[wild hornet]

i didnt

[tepid trellis]

then stand afk and die

[chilly patio]

Why does resetting the boss reset blades cd but not flag's?

[lucid jackal]

Because

[wild hornet]

i wont get rebuffed if i dont take ress

[wraith sphinx]

Cause blizzard thinks it's funny

[tepid trellis]

cuz its only 2min cds that gets reset and blades used be one

[chilly patio]

Oh cool

[bleak night]

blades was a 2m

[tepid trellis]

its literally just a whitelist issue

that they cant be bothered to fix

[bleak night]

yeah very cool of them

[chilly patio]

After simming, it looks like the sim only uses one filler dance between the 6 and 7:30 blades, and one filler dance between 4:30 and 6 blades - will try that instead

[lucid jackal]

I feel like you are looking at this the wrong way

[hazy breach]

When sectech is ready and flag isnt coming up in like 20s you should check if you can dance+symbols

If you cant do that then check if you can do a natty symbols

And if you cant do that then dont do anything

("cant do it" in this context means you wont have 2 of each for flag+blades)

[chilly patio]

In that case, if i have 1 charge of shadow dance, 1 charge of symbols, and ~40s left before flag (and sectec is up), i should always send then?

Or does it depend on the cd of the second charge of dance

(In a single target vacuum)

[chilly patio]

Sorry if this is frustrating, trying to sort out what the prio list should be. My current prio in order has been:

Making sure i have 2 charges of dance/symbols for 90s (as well as sectec ready)

Making sure i'm not overcapping on dance/symbol charges (i.e. using them when sectec is available)

Spending extra sectecs if i don't deny myself any in the above dance/symbols windows

[warm heron]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[lucid jackal]

It's not frustrating

Here's what you should do

• You symbols with every secret technique, you can start this process when sectec has 9 or less seconds remaining if it's up.
• you add dance to this if it's available.
• you stop pressing symbols and dance when flag/blades has 30 second remaining on its cd

[chilly patio]

Gotcha, will try that instead

In a fight like cauldron mythic, or anything with adds that spawn (oab is a good example), would it be worth moving symbols/dance out of this prio list to get extra pad/cleave? That's what ive been doing in the past, but want to check if thats a good idea or not

Ex: holding this 4th cast of dance/symbols until i can cleave both bosses during intermission in cauldron

It breaks rule 3 of the prio list (i.e. using stuff right before flag/blades) but i'm still getting 2 sectec in my 90 window

Checking rank 1, the answer is yes, sort of? They do the same, and then hold their 90s to realign with sectec

[twilit phoenix]

Yeah for sure you can hold 4th dance in cauldron

[hollow spear]

you can also just have a look at https://lorrgs.io/spec_ranking/rogue-subtlety/cauldron-of-carnage

if you see a pattern, it's usually solid

[chilly patio]

Ty

Also yeah looking at some logs i think i'm losing sectec casts, specifically outside of shadowdance/symbols, which is why i need to shift to the prio list Forever mentioned

Big ty for the help everyone

[lucid jackal]

This is where you need to make personal value judgements. The reason we have these symbols dance rules is because "it ends up working that way" shifting stuff backwards 10 seconds on oab for an add spawn is something you can do

If you end up bricking your Cd's you need 1 dance and about 30 seconds on your next to have a clean cd set so

I forget what number is for sod

[chilly patio]

Ive been using 1 charge and ~10 seconds remaining on the other for my sod heuristic and it seems to be fine, give or take

[honest brook]

do we need 1 and half shadowdance for next flag guys?

[lucid jackal]

.

[honest brook]

sorry i didnt read

ty

[wide kernel]

that amount is safe i think for most of m+

[honest brook]

yes i stop using them 30sec before my next flag

but that downtime feel so bad

idk

[wide kernel]

but it kinda depends. two full charges get's you a third SD/blades if that mob isn't gonna die quickly and that portion is still under flag mastery, so

[chilly patio]

Sub rogue has taught me patience over all else, my lizard brain sees shadowdance is up and wants to press it so bad

Just gotta not

[lucid jackal]

Not worth optimizing around

[wide kernel]

i typically don't optimize around it but kinda saying you shouldnt ever do that is wrong too

is our set bonus worth optimizing around at all, ever?

[lucid jackal]

Nop

[brittle plinth]

That's a good take

[honest brook]

ye

[haughty rose]

can someone check the is log and tell me a few things?

https://wowanalyzer.com/report/3gGKQm8dZjJvWYkX/12-4+Mug'Zee,+Heads+of+Security/Pablov/standard

it say's 0% if my shadow blades casts were good because of shadow dance buff alignment although i always do it like this

flag > rupture shadowblades > symbols > backstab > shadow blades + trinket > shadow technique

am i missing something or is this just a bug?

same with buff alignment on dance. it says i didn't align it with symbol. i mean i can see where it's coming from since i press them individually and dance always first. maybe thats the error?

and what does it mean on flag with secret tec and symbols cooldown?

[fiery iron]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lucid jackal]

I don't think wow anylzer works

I think it even warns you that it doesn't work multiple times

[twilit phoenix]

[lucid jackal]

You can lead a horse to water

[wide kernel]

shadow blades isn't suppose to be used with symbols

you're suppose to use it after you use up pre-med right before sectec

[vale pine]

it is fine for a diffrent way to look at logs

but the suggestions/etc are not updated to my knowlage

[brittle plinth]

^

I like it for some data it outputs, context is on me to apply

[chilly patio]

Is it worth trying to maximize vanish uses or is it a small gain? I rarely ever use it as an offensive cd (bad habit)

I mostly use it defensively or as a ghetto 3rd charge of shadowstep nowadays but its definitely costing me uses

[copper vapor]

Hello, are there somesub streamers that plays high key lvl & publish to yt?

[wide kernel]

is this accurate?

for M+

[copper vapor]

best subs are pushing 3.4k rio

while fire/unholy/balance are pushing 3.6k

they're not on the same level at all, this chart is wrong

[hollow python]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ankHQMK4tY8m6wWF?fight=41&type=damage-done&source=11
would someone mind taking a peek on this gally log and let me know what im messing up to be so super low on parses (was a half alt run, but previous parsing of mine was pretty much equally bad), much appreciated

[paper iron]

m+ tier list

[hazy breach]

!mistakes

[wicked jolt]

Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:

• Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
• Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
• Make sure you always get 8 globals of during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
• If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.

[hollow python]

Just double checked, opener matches, got the 8 dance globals, each dance/symbols lines up though i accidentally hit symbols twice once, one flag i evis instead of ruptured because it was already up and assumingly a burst moment but still building the finisher stacking buff from flag so im thinking that would be ok othewise all the flag/blades looks to be lined up also

i know i definitely have some dead time getting stuck on the other side of the huge beam during ad phases sometimes and peel to boss for a few seconds but i imagine thats not unique

[lucid jackal]

Without looking at the logs heres what I think

[hazy breach]

The opener does not match perfectly no, theres a gap inbetween your dances, and on every subsequent burst its not very similar to the picture

Like this is not it

[rain swallow]

whats the best rogue spec for M+?

[hazy breach]

Probably assa overall, but genuinely play whatever you like the most, theyre all fine

[rain swallow]

feel like my dmg is lacking with sub compared to others while doing 14s

[lucid jackal]

U could try sin if u want

It's not like sin takes stats

[hazy breach]

Gotta have as low crit as possible for demisemaxxin

[rain swallow]

ye sins are pumping but idk what i feel about the dotting aspect of the spec

[lucid jackal]

Doesn't that build fall off in higher keys or something

[plush roost]

Every single use of flag blades is incorrect, every single one. You're not back to back dancing, you're using house of cards far too early so its not benefitting your cd windows, you hold flag for wayyyy too long and because of that you lose a cast, you had cd windows where you have 3 globals in the first shadowdance. So much of our damage is in cds and if you mess up every single cd window your dps is gonna suffer. Gotta go back to the training dummy and master the 16 globals of flag/blades my friend

[lucid jackal]

I mean sin will do more aoe, but it's st is lower

[rain swallow]

not sure actually could be

feels like sin just doesnt scale that well?

sub*

[plush roost]

Bleed doesn't fall off too hard in high keys, ST is fairly similar to hybrid and its overall is stronger and less rigid with its use of shiv

[hazy breach]

Not really anymore

[lucid jackal]

Sure but it's st is still bad compared to sub

[plush roost]

Oh ofc

[lucid jackal]

It's a tradeoff either way. People playing rogue in keys are playing all 3 specs. I think since the bug fix people have moved off outlaw but both sub and sin are fine for keys

Sub is more st, sin is more aoe

Play whatever u want

[plush roost]

I misread the comparison mb

[lucid jackal]

If u want a bigger details meter play sin ig

[hazy breach]

I was expecting sub buffs so i could do more pumpin in m+, but alas

[plush roost]

Sub is really good in mechagon, dfc, ToP imo

[lucid jackal]

5% aura next week

Trust

[rain swallow]

i hope so man

[hazy breach]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1322604057990267000/1361081081234984991/image.png?ex=67fd7509&is=67fc2389&hm=0b38da93a620f4ff726712cfe6409cf9468742e0674c42590c1bd20c1f147cbc&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=868&height=164
Sprocket

[plush roost]

That would be nice

[wide kernel]

sub feels really weird in brew. just did one where i couldn't break 2.8m I thought I did OK but having to spend flag on suboptimal mobs doesnt feel good

[plush roost]

Brew is just an assa key

[rain swallow]

ye cuz after the big and small burst u have nothing

[plush roost]

The boss dam diff is negligible when you have 3 bosses with trash to funnel with

[rain swallow]

and everyone is padding on the bees and brew drops

while u do -0 dmg

[hazy breach]

Sending shivs on IPA and slowing the mobs by 92%

Because arterial range is like 200 yards

[wide kernel]

isn't there an addon to check for fluff damage?

[plush roost]

My group just stopped hitting blobs because they can't reach boss its so nice

We had a 3:32 ipa on our 17

Uhdk havoc sin

[hazy breach]

Its like if you have your team not kill the adds on green ghost boy in ToP

Then assa does massive boss damage

[plush roost]

Yep

I had a 3.5m kulthorok lol

[hazy breach]

In that case specifically, i must concede that playing not bleed is probably better because you dont kill your own funnel as quickly

But big CT is nice

[plush roost]

Yeah i think in top specifically i prefer hybrid with FI

[hazy breach]

But idk bleed is insanely good on the small packs on the pillars

[plush roost]

If im to play assa in there, i really like sub cutting 45 seconds off of xav

Idk theres a big target on all 4 pillars in there to spatter off

[chilly patio]

11.1.5

[wide kernel]

why is brew an assa key?

[plush roost]

So its not too bad, and we pull both sides with abom

[plush roost]

Lots of targets with a big prio mob in most packs, constantly, no recharge pulls. Assa really enjoys having a prio target to spatter off of. 2 bosses have built in adds that you can rupture and CT off of for more agi energy dam. The first boss you pull pyros into for funnel (my group does 1 pyro pack first phase, and second pyro pack second phase if its still up from chewie).

[lucid jackal]

That's even on a movement based fight for casters

[hazy breach]

Ye

[bleak wind]

but also these specs got buffs 🙂

[hazy breach]

Theyre in my chart too

They do very poor ST for sure, but their multitarget damage is good

[hollow python]

I'll try and get ahold of a recording to see what happened there, assumingly i was avoiding a mechanic after going into dance that led to the gap but at least beforehand the the only thing im seeing is sdance and symbols swapped which as long as im getting supercharged sectec and backstabbing first for rotten that's the same value correct?

[patent crystal]

bp buff coming soon

[hazy breach]

So they just got straight buffs for some reason

[bleak wind]

yep bad on one boss, pretty much

[hollow python]

meant to attach this

[bleak wind]

meanwhile sub is only good on rick and that is a stretch even now

[wide kernel]

vexie too no?

[hazy breach]

Theres an eviscerate inbetween your dances in the opener

[patent crystal]

not bad, other spec are just better

[wide kernel]

isnt there some psuedo damage amp with the plates

[bleak wind]

vexie is a gimmick boss, doesn't matter

[hazy breach]

Which made you drop your tier set stacks

[hoary lotus]

Sin straight gaps sub on vexie with good kill time

[wide kernel]

isnt sub suppose to have better ST?

[hazy breach]

2 min class does better on a fight with 100% increased damage every 2 minutes

[hazy breach]

With m+ builds ye

In raid no

Or idk what you mean by "supposed to"

[wide kernel]

yeah thats what i meant

i was wondering if the raid build was diff, i dont play sin

really feel like i struggle in raids though low mid of the dps pack in good groups

[hollow python]

Ah that makes sense... i've been trying to hold second dance slightly if sectec was about to be up to try to get them to line up better for dance > backstab > cold blood+sectec on the second one... completely forgot about not dropping the winning streaks

[hazy breach]

Ye send dance immediately

And then symbols whenever sectech has 10s or less left

[hollow python]

Thanks, wrote it all down, just to make sure im thinking correct here...
-when you say im not back to back dancing that's to optimize not dropping 4pc stacks so I should hold dances longer until, by the time 1st is done, 2nd is up correct? On top of just generally lining up flag/symbols/trinket/CB second sectec like with the opener?
-house of cards too early, since its 15s should i hold until first dance is mostly up then for higher flag stacks and most/all second dance coverage?

[hazy breach]

Well you also have house of cards and blades for only 15/16 seconds, so you dont want to delay your dance so you end up with some dance outside of those

You can just macro house of cards with shadowblades

[plush roost]

What eleem said, 15 sec HoC means if you're using it before you even enter dance you're losing 1-2 globals if increased mastery

Most people macro it to sblades and use it with sec tec to guarantee all 15 globals of dance are enhanced

[hollow python]

Ok, tyty

[young mural]

Thats a pretty insane stretch to say vexie has a 2min timer for the weakened thingy

Based on my guild's reclear, its really inconsistant

And most of the time I play as sub, and my 1min 30 CDs have 15-10sec left for them to come back when we get the 1st 6 platings

imo especially in heroic sub is 1000% the way to go in vexie

[hazy breach]

Its roughly 2 min on mythic

Ye you can do it in like 1:50 or something, but its still pretty close to 2 min

[young mural]

2min is pretty slow imo

Based on my guild's mythic exp

But ill check logs cause i can be hallucinating

[plush roost]

If your guild properly catches the oil cannisters its 1:40ish

If your guild is like mine and stacks in a ven diagram, its 2 mins