has been like 4 buffs in a row
#subtlety
swift tinsel
wasn't conduit barely more than a meme and needed transmitter to even be kinda competitive before
I only played it while leveling in dungeons and it did giga dam until you were like 76 then fell off a cliff lol
alpine wraith
tier set made it better iirc
bleak night
sold my soul back into the dk meta
swift tinsel
Hey its my second most played toon lol
made it before my rogue even
got aotc and 2.5k as sub which were my goals for the season so I'm free
bleak night
im just hearing a lot of excuses ngl
swift tinsel
Jokes on you I'm playing frost
bleak night
swift tinsel
(when its my key and people get duped into it)
I'm not at a key range where uhdk gets real value yet lol
shit dies and I still have 4-5 sec left on gift
lusty swan
I hope there’s just no rogue news because they are secretly planing another rework haha
young mural
I hope there’s just no rogue news because they are secretly planing another rewo...
rogue revamp is surely coming haha
steel horizon
swift tinsel
even blood is fun, you laugh at most mechanics and can't die unless you get real greedy
Now I just need 3 diff weapons
novel plaza
did they fix the pre-symbols thing on boss or naw?
swift tinsel
not as of yesterday
young mural
yup, was working yesterday during prog
stiff stirrup
ST damage …
honest saddle
About 7.5-10% st for sub would be right.
But if it didn't happen now, its not gonna happen this tier
They buffed every single spec performing like sub but not sub
hardy snow
they should make flag passive to dance so we're more versatile.
sonic quail
ST damage …
yea I was being a little sarcastic lol
hardy snow
About 7.5-10% st for sub would be right.
the amount seems very right, but with current skill set sub would still be quite restrained
dry plank
Ahahaha huge class tuning, because fuck you
young mural
seems actually insane to me that they'd buff the ST of specs that already were outperforming sub
and letting us just rot
idk im salty
wide kernel
Big sadge
random hare
Sub sucks balls and mages have people that know how to cry hard for blizzard to listen
wide kernel
Continues the trend of the most difficult specs being at least somewhat underpowered, it's such a common trope in games
honest saddle
What choice do we have now?
Realz we need you now more than ever. Save us. Please someone send out the Realz bat signal.
random hare
Fire mage got buffed just fyi
wide kernel
Well
random hare
Arcane mage got buffed when it was stronger than sub
wide kernel
We rerolled udk is what we do
young mural
zeross is cracked in keys btw
wide kernel
Wdym
young mural
Arcane mage got buffed when it was stronger than sub
actually pisses me off
how they fucking tuned mage a bunch of times
and sub was look at during PTR, nerfed tierset to the ground and thats all
wide kernel
You say zeroes is cracked, what's his overall look like
young mural
You say zeroes is cracked, what's his overall look like
approx. 10m cinderbrew
honest saddle
Its unconscionable at this point to ignore sub again.
young mural
wide kernel
approx. 10m cinderbrew
Not overall for the whole dungeon
random hare
Prepatch sub nerf is probably the most fucked up nerf of all time
honest saddle
The tier nerf made me want to die @random hare
young mural
Its unconscionable at this point to ignore sub again.
i mean i saw some people earlier trying to justify the fact that we're not catching a little buff but its literally unjustifiable
"oh sub has big burst" mm hunter bursting more
wide kernel
Post on reddit about it
lucid jackal
"oh sub has big burst" mm hunter bursting more
Literally nobody was saying this btw
young mural
fuck this
wide kernel
Prepatch sub nerf is probably the most fucked up nerf of all time
You are the murlok.io zeross or no?
young mural
Prepatch sub nerf is probably the most fucked up nerf of all time
they did it 2 times also
hardy snow
sub is very ceiled due to ultra burst window where no one can put it in good use in m+ to its full potential.
bleak night
You are the murlok.io zeross or no?
no different zeross
wide kernel
The #1 sub atm
honest saddle
Lololololol
young mural
max tier set stacks went from ~30 > ~12 iirc > 8 
strange chasm
@random hare you think iw maybe for priory
random hare
iw for nothing
Scam talent
Just play Resto shaman and u will live any bolt on ur ass
strange chasm
resto is good on priory?
wide kernel
OK then, how is subs overall in high keys? How close to 5m do you get
random hare
strange chasm
i thought sham bad
random hare
wtf is murloc io
random hare
i thought sham bad
I think it’s rly good
young mural
iw for nothing
the fuck is IW
random hare
Ironwire
strange chasm
aint no way its better than disc tho
wide kernel
Shows what gear/talents/etc
young mural
Murlok.io it's just an aggregate like archon
which are all just aggregates of warcraft logs and raider io
molten citrus
murlok is worse
wide kernel
Yeah but you can actually see people's builds without three search functions
random hare
aint no way its better than disc tho
20% stamina is rly good
molten citrus
its an Armory aggregate
random hare
Disc got nerfed now too
molten citrus
young mural
Maybe shaman stronger
nah, nerfs were pretty small for disc
molten citrus
!
bleak night
zeross is scam
wide kernel
But anyway, what is subs overall in high keys look like and does it hit 5m?
bleak night
!
young mural
they're very very good in keys still with massive shields
young mural
But anyway, what is subs overall in high keys look like and does it hit 5m?
@random hare what overalls do you get bud
jeans or canvas overalls?
random hare
U can check my vids I have no idea
honest saddle
Hes a rainbow stripe kinda guy
random hare
I don’t look at numbers too much
honest saddle
young mural
U can check my vids I have no idea
send channel
wide kernel
Same
random hare
It’s a weakaura
young mural
It’s a weakaura
send if youre a good guy...
strange chasm
yo arcane mage kinda going to be crazy on reset
young mural
tyvm
young mural
ill test it out O_O
young mural
gn zeros
honest saddle
I wonder if the issue with sub tuning is we all say hey, hello, we need 7.5% st buff.
And there is no way to do that. There isnt a way to buff only single target in sub anymore. It's actually impossible to only buff our st
molten citrus
https://wago.io/bRl2gJIgz
young mural
<:suske:1293220793878315028>
what the fuck LOL
short radish
molten citrus
-# (its just a joke guys)
young mural
-# (its just a joke guys)
lucid jackal
I wonder if the issue with sub tuning is we all say hey, hello, we need 7.5% st ...
You mean how they just did balance to balance druid?
Where they buffed the st and nerfed aoe?
They could just lower nimble flurry
wide kernel
Well from that vid sub was like 500k behind a DK after last boss dead
Which is like 15%
tepid trellis
You mean how they just did balance to balance druid?
dont come in here with your logic
young mural
Where they buffed the st and nerfed aoe?
we have trash aoe compared to other rogue specs
the least we can ask for and what we've historically excelled at was ST damage
now we have nothin
just the coolness part
tepid trellis
also like guy didn't say that they would have to nerf our AoE just pointing out how easy it is to do if you purely wanted to buff ST
it is quite a mystery as to why sub is getting 0 help in tuning tho
cuz the spec fcking blows
young mural
also for anyone who hasnt muted me yet, dont take my rant too seriously im just dooming hard D:
young mural
it is quite a mystery as to why sub is getting 0 help in tuning tho
its uncomprehensible for me
mind boggling even
tepid trellis
im more curious as to what data they are seeing that indicates that sub is fine
young mural
im leaning more to the side of
they're not even looking
but would be interesting to see what they see as sub being fine for now
dry plank
Why look at spec which has no playerbase?
tepid trellis
so like looking at mythic statistics is kinda not great until a few more week
but even on HC if you 95th percentile
sub is bottom 6
its only in normal where kill timers are very fast
that it does good
young mural
They buff the shit out of dev evoker for what????????
this tuning team's work is actually baffling
tepid trellis
they buffed dev evoker
tepid trellis
cuz 99% of dev evokers drool on their keyboard
and do 0 dmg
only people that actually plays the class alot
young mural
LOL
lucid jackal
also like guy didn't say that they would have to nerf our AoE just pointing out ...
Dude I swaer people literally cannot read
tepid trellis
and majority of evoker players just arent good
lucid jackal
It's driving me fucking insane
tepid trellis
but i guess thats the same for all classes?
guess ive just been more keen on noticing it cuz i was mad over that tuning pass
young mural
but i guess thats the same for all classes?
for sure
tepid trellis
like you see the same shit with fotm rerolls for m+
people that prolly shouldnt fotm reroll
goes to play whats "broken"
just to do less dmg than a sub rogue in keys
like what are we doing here?
young mural
lol
oh i remember the other thing that was pissing me off
uh dk unarguably completely broken
tepid trellis
in m+ yes
young mural
and they nerf 5% of 1 hero talent??????
tepid trellis
its unarguably shit in raid
young mural
and they nerf 5% of 1 hero talent?????? <:OMEGAKEKW:829051106361344021>
i mean, the talent was sometimes the spec's top dmg, but 5% will make little difference
young mural
blizzard tuning team is huffing glue at this point
idk what goes through their minds really
i have a simple solution
remove all classes and specs, leave sub rogue
now all that matters is burst window execution
perfect game
gritty knot
Just woke up. Still fkn angry about this shit company and these "Tuning-Team" imbeciles. What a fkn joke this is
young mural
next raid
liberation of blizzard HQ
its a joke guys
btw just making it clear im not inciting a riot at blizzard hq
gritty knot
Maybe Blizz is back to old habits? Atleast the Tuning - Team. Doing coke on the toilet and having sex with hookers on the lounge couch. That would explain a lot to me
honest saddle
You mean how they just did balance to balance druid?
yeah for sure, but that also fucks with deathstalker since you'd be buffing st for sub, nerfing nimble, and not touching ds?
lucid jackal
ok
young mural
steep loom
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
rocky ocean
Are people really surprised about uh or they forgot about enha s1
tepid trellis
and what the fuck does buffing single target do for DS
it already blows
that shit gonna change nothing
umbral topaz
Bye sub, back to assa, hope to see you guys again 
young mural
keen dome
Can't believe they forgot to include the Sub buffs.
I'm sure they are just running late, though.
short radish
im more curious as to what data they are seeing that indicates that sub is fine
tbh it's probably "nobody plays this spec so who cares"
gonna take too much effort to fix (again)
for the 7 sub rogue players
acutally 6 now that @tribal blade is a filthy red name
keen dome
Maybe they're working on a big rework again.
keen dome
In the past I'd say Sub but I'm not sure this season
lucid jackal
its for sure not sub
Its probably survival or outlaw
arcane, survival, outlaw, frost, feral
for m raid
keen dome
Yeah, I was thinking Outlaw or Survival as the likely ones.
Sub started off pretty good due to the initial buffs, and I imagine a lot of people stuck with it 'cos they are enjoying it this season. It's absolutely fine for the content the majority of people engage in (AotC / Weeklies)
Well, a majority of people who engage with endgame anyway.
lucid jackal
The spec was better for most of prog
Most ppl probably aren't even clued into the fact sin got buffed
keen dome
Yeah. I also suspect at the level a majority of people play (like me), it doesn't really matter either as the issue is going to typically be mechanics more than output.
So it's fimrly people playing whatever they enjoy if it was performing well initially, rather than swapping to something stronger. Mythic will be different, but Mythic always is and has a vastly smaller player footprint, too.
hollow spear
I swore to myself I wouldn't switch to sin for mythic raiding (besides mug, obv). Otherwise I would have swapped already.
100k more on sprocken while being more chill to play
tribal blade
acutally 6 now that <@146180393941336064> is a filthy red name
just timed a 16 ML with my group as sin
and 15 ToP
the transition is happening
tepid trellis
its for sure not sub
keen dome
Guy right on the money.
Surprised to see Demo lower than Sub. I thought it was pretty good atm?
lucid jackal
It's not
keen dome
Buff the imps 😦
Curious to see that data a few weeks after 11.1.5 and see if there's a shift on Sub or not. Will be interesting.
Although a lot of other factors could influence so it's not the best representation. But to me, still interesting.
keen dome
We did, yeah. But we started out in a pretty bad spot. This time we started (imo) in a good spot, and then got overtaken. My guess is there'll be a decline once .5 rolls around but it'll be more because people are just done with their content / prog and are doing other stuff.
Which is why it'll be hard to really draw accurate conclusions without really digging into it and looking at patterns.
hollow spear
It was quite clear from the start that we'd get overtaken eventually
keen dome
Absolutely
hollow spear
Not to the devs tho
Haha
If they had kept sub the way it was, rwf would have maybe brought 2 in some fights
keen dome
What could've been.. My nuclear SecTec, alas.
hollow spear
Not sure what they were afraid of
keen dome
I'm sure they had some pretty good data or points on it. but who knows.
hollow spear
Please make sectec do all of its damage on button press
keen dome
It's the kind of stuff i wish they could be more clear on 'cos I find all that rational and design reasoning super interesting. But it's never possible.
hollow spear
Maybe our dev thinks he has a 240 character max on his notes or sth
short radish
bring back realz 😦
haughty rose
anyone ever tried to soak 4 mines at sprocketmonger with cloak and vanish shield talent? im sick of pugs not being coordinated enough to sort the mine thing out
or will the next set of mines blast me?
void ocean
bring back realz 😦
where did he go
short radish
away from rogue
lilac stag
bring back realz 😦
Bring back ? Has anything actually been completed with sub since he became the main name associated with rogue dev? It’s a team but effort, but nothing is getting fully completed.
communication also back to worst I can remember in a long time.
void ocean
I just dont understand how frost dk can get buffs 2 times, now with alternative hero tree adjusted and we r not touched the entire season
lilac stag
Exactly
short radish
Bring back ? Has anything actually been completed with sub since he became the m...
yeah exactly bring him back
short radish
so he can complete something
hey at least we got
charges on symbols
that was kinda cool
lilac stag
So either resources are not there, or the team can’t manage their time efficiently.
rocky ocean
Rogue
void ocean
i mean, either way some classes shouldnt come 2 times to focus while others never
void ocean
it just tells me sub is forgotten
potent summit
All rogues should just quit the game together and we‘ll see 😂😂
potent summit
👍🏼
lilac stag
i mean, either way some classes shouldnt come 2 times to focus while others neve...
What if that dev team is completing tasks in a timely manner and has the ability to keep iterating, and our team can’t get out of thier own way and we get just a focus on one spec.
short radish
What if that dev team is completing tasks in a timely manner and has the ability...
sorry best we can do is another assi rework
void ocean
What if that dev team is completing tasks in a timely manner and has the ability...
if their top lvl manager is sleeping
like if one team is underperforming for some reason, any sane manager who wants to keep his job should enquire about ihe reasons
potent summit
Why do classes like balance get buffs ? 😭
void ocean
but i guess in Blizz anything is possible
lilac stag
there’s something clearly wrong with the way development is handled
What it is we just guess at
as a PM is irritates me to no end to see zero information, zero communication and just giving an outward appearance of ignoring it.
void ocean
its so fckin frustrating
wide kernel
We did, yeah. But we started out in a pretty bad spot. This time we started (imo...
i mean why play sub when you can play dk, which is much simpler
misty dome
best rogue patch notes ever
misty dome
oh i just say that every time there's zero mention of rogue in notes
which is often
heh
other than pvp
void ocean
well I mean... if u r untouched while others get buffed 😄
misty dome
yeah it's mostly sarcasm
i'd love to see a rogue rework, like stealth is clearly an outdated concept the way the game is designed/plays now
everything detects, we had that detect bug for how long where mobs could see us from further in stealth than not?
we get held in combat forever after fights are over so even if we have a tank that wants to let us restealth, we often can't
(thanks xal'atath affixes)
i also don't think it'll ever happen... i mean monks have some of the same bugs that they've had since they launched
clones are hilarious
i don't even feel bad when i forget to swap back to first dance talents for an M+ since it doesn't always feel like i get to use it anyways
short radish
yeah TFD would be so much better if it wasnt 10 seconds out of combat
6seconds is a lie
misty dome
i mean don't get me wrong, rogue main 4 lyfe yo
but sometimes... i look over and the grass looks so green in other yards
void ocean
but sometimes... i look over and the grass looks so green in other yards
u sound like 11.1.5 ret 😄
misty dome
never ret
i do have a dh and monk leveled because i'm a glutton for punishment
like why go from melee to ANOTHER melee in this atmosphere haha
void ocean
my alt is a fdk so im fine
misty dome
i also have a levelled dk, fdk is fun but i mainly tank on it
so the class balance notes look great for me
unholy is kind of... boring
void ocean
its 6 ilvls under my sub rogue and does way more dmg 😄
misty dome
2 buttons and top of meters
part of me wants to go back to sin but i did sin in s1, this is the season of sub
gritty knot
Imagine pressing all of ur big dmg cd's, lining everything perfectly up. Then pressing sec tech, ur biggest dmg attack. Only to see ur clones falling 163535 metres through the air on the ground. Greetings Rookery 1st boss 👌 great shit. Nah but srsly TFD is shit too with that out of combat shit. And there are many other things aswell. Trickster is fun imo. But rn so many other specs are better. And seeing hybrid classes doing much more dmg than me and being more effective as a pure DPS class always triggers my anyway ...
*me
gritty knot
Ye that's a different story but true. A fkn nightmare that boss is...
misty dome
i love getting like a 90-95 parse and being 5th in my raid behind 80s
void ocean
I laughed at the discussion on how to use ks on the 1st boss in rookery
misty dome
or when you look at the top rogue parses and they wouldn't be first in a prog first kill (in my guild... and we took like 50 pulls for cauldron)
void ocean
now from this distance that nerf we got at the start of the season looks even more ridiculous
lilac stag
TFD is just another example of half cooked talents being pushed live.
It’s buggy as fuck. If rogue stealth and combat is that buggy, fucking fix it or stop making shit that relies on it.
just makes players angry why it doesn’t work. Time and time again.
misty dome
yeah, stealth is too important for us to still behave like it does
lilac stag
we’re forever in an early beta phase of spec development.
lilac stag
assa stealth is fine
misty dome
oh i mean in keys
if you don't open from stelath you have to manually spread if vanish isn't up
even if it is, having a mid-fight vanish to re-dot is great
sub not having stealth isn't as painful as that imo
lilac stag
You literally have a spec that destroys low health mobs to get out of combat. Is fueled by chain pulling at 35% into new packs and has 2 charges of vanish to play around IC with
You’re doing it wrong if you think stealth / chain pulls is bad
misty dome
i don't think we're necessarily disagreeing
misty dome
it's not ideal
lilac stag
it is ideal. You have choices
misty dome
well bad tanking is a problem for everyone
misty dome
maybe i'm just out of touch on sin
lilac stag
Where sub if you’re actually playing around on TFD is inting
misty dome
i always just preferred to open from stealth last season
but i also didn't push crazy keys, i think i only finished the season at like 2700
lilac stag
you want rupture buff going and to never drop
misty dome
yeah that makes sense
tepid trellis
as long as the tank doesent do the
lilac stag
35% pack health and please pull another pack
tepid trellis
1 mob 10% health
haughty mural
Banger patch notes
tepid trellis
into a new pack of 8
haughty mural
And upcoming tuning
misty dome
Banger patch notes
might be best ever
lilac stag
worse case you rupture the 10% mob and hope SD gets you out
where sub is backstabbing.
torpid snow
is there a macro that throws backstab after a shadow dance?
misty dome
god i hate how often my cds come up with 1 or 2 mobs left at like 10%
haughty mural
might be best ever
Vibing
ripe moon
is there a macro that throws backstab after a shadow dance?
There is no gcd on dance so its easy to do if U need it
lilac stag
current assa 
plays how dot rogue should. Choices with prio, choices with vanish uses, big assassinate numbers with SD.
lilac stag
envenom simulator ain’t it
misty dome
and kind of shying away from outlaw since i did so many seasons as outlaw for M+ after it was introduced in legion
it's different now, and the CPM is fun, but it's still outlaw
lilac stag
bleed assa imo not like last season. I didn’t enjoy last season assa at all.
misty dome
yeah i liked everything you said about sin: priorities over a rotation
i might have too much vers on my gear to go sin atm
lilac stag
i might have too much vers on my gear to go sin atm
You don’t
ripe moon
I checked yesterday and ds sims my sub gear almost the same for assa
keen dome
I literally swapped to Assa without changing anything and di absolutely fine
Just slam it
misty dome
yeah but you guys are skilled and i'm garbage tier
void ocean
we still dont know anything about sub for 11.1.5, do we?
keen dome
I am absolutely terrible
misty dome
i mean... they haven't posted anything but i also don't expect anything
we often have very few mentions in patch notes, which is where the "best rogue patch notes ever" memes come from
keen dome
I'd just swap and slam it, see how it goes. If you enjoy it, maybe make another neck that's crit/mast I guess?
Which I guess is what i might do
void ocean
and what are these corruption enchants, is it gonna be a head enchant?
lilac stag
Running slice for bleed it wanted me to keep my vers mastery crafts over haste/crit/mast combos
keen dome
oh, nice
I mean it didn't seem like I needed to swap anything when I played last night. Just went in with 1:1 to Sub, did more damage than I did as Sub, won prizes.
lilac stag
In ST is was like 8k to recraft haste mastery
misty dome
i'm 8k crit, 23k mastery, 11k vers right now
misty dome
is there a haste breakpoint to aim for with sin?
void ocean
is there a haste breakpoint to aim for with sin?
Nope
misty dome
Numbers make number go up
i want this on a shirt
lilac stag
Numbers make number go up
Tariffs disagree
misty dome
god damn you people, it's late and i want to go to sleep but y'all are too entertaining
lilac stag
cortisol numbers we don’t want going up. 
misty dome
2.3m sim on sub, 2.0m sim on sin
keen dome
2.3m sim on sub, 2.0m sim on sin
What I did was just go into a key (+6) and play it and see.
lilac stag
2.3m sim on sub, 2.0m sim on sin
You’ll do more dmg on the lower sim
keen dome
I typically end keys at 2.3 - 2.7 as Sub. And I ended that +6 at 3m+
lilac stag
Oh yeah SD doesn’t sim right in dslice
void ocean
Now do it for outlaw 🤣
keen dome
And then I looked at the damage breakdown on where my damage was going, etc.
And I had a good laugh
lilac stag
Now do it for outlaw 🤣
misty dome
i don't have outlaw weapons atm
void ocean
Not needed
lilac stag
A 658 will do
void ocean
Still outdps sub
misty dome
i mean i only have daggers on me atm, i might have some warbound weapons
void ocean
Just buy smth green on ah
misty dome
we're doing heroic reclear tomorrow for lols so i was thinking of trying to nab some weapons out of that
keen dome
A good plan
misty dome
honestly i know it's a meme but i can't not use thunderfury mog since i got it
i got robbed of it in vanilla
i believe the consensus at the time was that it was best to put it on rogues because of SnD
but our main tank (warrior) swapped to DPS and took it because him and the raid leader and GM were roomies in college
wow players doing wow player things
lilac stag
it was a rogue weapon originally
void ocean
Which one
lilac stag
TF
keen dome
Can't wait for the rogue legendary in 11.2 that's going to be a fist weapon.
lilac stag
Once numbers got involved tanks and threat laid claim.
misty dome
yes, yes we did
void ocean
🤣
keen dome
my favourite thunderfury thing was when rogues got gliders disabled in dungeon content. Because of speed farming the thunderfury hidden appereance drop in Legion
misty dome
i don't even pretend that i can put together something good looking, i just put on TF on outlaw and that's good enough
lilac stag
Alright. Time to get on the road. 3 hour drive to doggo sport activity.
misty dome
that was hilarious @keen dome
lilac stag
Enjoy the day
misty dome
@lilac stag thanks for the chat, have a good one
keen dome
Alright. Time to get on the road. 3 hour drive to doggo sport activity.
Good luck!
misty dome
we'll see if my fingies still remember how to sin tomorrow
i doubt i'll swap back full time, i enjoy sub right now
the dance windows are fun
but sin does feel more mentally engaging at times
keen dome
Ye. I mean, playing both is a really good place to be 'cos you can swap as needed
misty dome
hopefully as we get closer to the .5 class tuning they add some stuff for us
not gonna hold my breath though
keen dome
It's always good to be able to play the whole class, even if you prefer one specific spec
vernal junco
the subtlety spec is just too wrong
upper rock
so do we use the full flag duration before shadowblades or not?
wicked joltBOT
Cooldown Use:
Every 90 seconds you want to cast Flagellation and subsequently Shadow Blades. When these two are up you always want cast 2 Symbols of Death, 2 Shadow Dances and 2 Secret Techniques.
To ensure you have enough cooldown reduction on your Shadow Dance to attain that you need atleast 1 charge and roughly 40 seconds left on your second charge before casting Flagellation.
keen dome
They'll explain the proper usage and how to line it all up
fallow nimbus
The tuning posts are jokes
It's bandit but with full add pad on the chasing ones and coin uptime almost on par with the poor soul that has to shoot them
past marlin
Sub is fine 🙃
vestal escarp
All tuning for this notes is double dipping on last one
tribal blade
fully expected tbh
it's the reason why i'm putting all my stock into sin atm
that way the devs can't hurt me anymore
vestal escarp
Oh yeah
keen dome
I can feel it in my shadow dance
fallow nimbus
If assa gets another buff before sub then it's really over
vestal escarp
Sin stocks are the safe route
keen dome
ye
vestal escarp
Too bad it plays like garbo in raid
tribal blade
it would be CRAZY if sin got another buff
keen dome
Or: purple
fallow nimbus
Time to revert energy cost nerfs
past marlin
2 dohshit class balance in a row.. nice Blizzard nice
keen dome
🙏
vestal escarp
vestal escarp
A couple more storms and backstabs outside sod aint gonna make day and night
tribal blade
Maybe we're getting an entire post just for us.
i hate to break it to you
fallow nimbus
But it would require some form of intelligence and isn't something in deathstalker tree
tribal blade
You can't prove me wrong yet!!
haha i love your undying optimism
patent crystal
They are gonna buff backstab dmg
keen dome
Unironically yeah I'd 100% believe that
If we suddenly got notes and it's like "Buffed Backstab by 30% I'd just go "yep that tracks"
fallow nimbus
Some day we get better dance cdr, it isn't this year or next, but someday 
tribal blade
i remember when backstab was a nuclear button
fallow nimbus
It needs to go
keen dome
It needs to become a PvP option for Sub that's some kind of big setup massive hit
tribal blade
i DO like to think i'm an angel
keen dome
Three possibilities at no tuning
- We're perfect and they don't want to change a thing.
- We're needing more work and they don't want to do a bandaid solution and there's something bigger coming.
- They forgot we exist
- It's more complex than any of these
tulip gorge
- they look at warcraftlogs, rogue is decently high, no changes needed
keen dome
That'd be 1!
tepid trellis
then they rup their eyes
tepid trellis
and see sub is not doing great
tribal blade
it's probably the simplest answer
patent crystal
Its because sub is ninja stealth spec, so devs cant see us
weary crag
sub assas and outlaw are all ok
tepid trellis
tribal blade
outlaw was performing quite highly right
keen dome
I would like more clear communication on class design and tunining, personally. Like. No buffs? fine: but it'd be cool to get their thinking
But i know that's never happening
tepid trellis
outlaw was performing quite highly right
they dont have any mythic logs past a few bosses
so their stats look weird
tribal blade
they dont have any mythic logs past a few bosses
true good point
keen dome
I assume they typically look at Heroic logs first and foremost, right?
Although I guess it's speculation
tepid trellis
mythic
HC
and if we look towards the bottom
thats the spec they thought they needed to nerf by 5% before the tier began
keen dome
The FrostDK diference is interesting
tribal blade
look at sub performing worse than ele and enhance
and both those specs got touched
every single spec down there got touched EXCEPT sub
i just realized
tulip gorge
yes but you see them touching sub would mean they have to admit nerfing sec tech at the start of the patch was not needed
tepid trellis
for good measure they should just nerf sub again
tulip gorge
and that's not going to happen
tepid trellis
cuz why not
distant plinth
you need to compare also with the number of parses, no?
keen dome
for good measure they should just nerf sub again
Reduce BP damage by 20%.
tepid trellis
nerf the tierset again
grave delta
sub getting replaced by a new talent spec in midnight that's why
tribal blade
well this could be the catalyst for massive compensation buffs after this tuning
around the .5
tepid trellis
distant plinth
on lockenstock MM atm, thinking or respecing assa but trying to find arguments not to 
distant plinth
sub was mega on stix, really enjoyed it
tepid trellis
and ehm, dont look at your FindWeakness uptimes
between pulls
or you will get mad
tribal blade
i thoroughly enjoy press storm to try to proc FW
and it not critting
and then storming again
and it not critting
and then just giving up
and crying in the corner
tepid trellis
its a dogshit mechanic
find me another class that has positional requirements
other than parry
tribal blade
horrible relic of literally 2004
i'm not sure why we're fighting with something that existed 20 years ago
tribal blade
made sense when backstab did a quarter of someone's health bar
tepid trellis
now the rest of the melee in my guild can feel my hate for positionals
get parried
fuckers
keen dome
Hell yeah
tribal blade
haha
keen dome
But I agree completely: positions suck, FW sucks. Just dumb fucking design
tribal blade
let the anger flow through you young padawan
tepid trellis
im just gonna raid log as assa
rest of tier
cba
until they fix sub's pain points
or i just reroll next tier
tribal blade
i'm in the similar frustration boat with sub atm
keen dome
tribal blade
i've only been playing sin in keys
tepid trellis
shaman
short radish
Well at least Deathstalker didn't get buffed guys
tepid trellis
Steal the ham
Steal this ham, is currently 640 ilvl
keen dome
Hell yeah
tribal blade
seems telling about the state of the spec when people who have mained sub for years are getting fed up
keen dome
Yeah
limpid sage
If we suddenly got notes and it's like "Buffed Backstab by 30% I'd just go "yep ...
Baseball, huh?
gleaming geyser
Is WoWAnalyzer relevant for sub rogue? It tells me 0% of my shadow blades because shadow dance wasn't present, which is just wrong
gritty knot
Pre Season start, no real numbers yet: "let's nerf sub rogue t-set. Oh and while we're on it, let's nerf sec tech too."
Meanwhile other classes t-sets: https://youtu.be/SrMNP6ZGZzM?si=35LONwVdDak1pCOm
astral narwhal
Out of curiosity, when was the last time rogue had a proper dev? Seems to me we always slip through the cracks and are in a weird, kinda balanced but never really balanced state
gleaming geyser
Sub only becomes strong when they forget about it and nerfed everything else enough, for 1 week then they remember our spec and nerf it to z tier again
sly shore
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vale pine
until they fix sub's pain points
what would be your top priority fix?
leaden prairie
find me another class that has positional requirements
oh i forgot sub had that
i progged the whole tier without thinking about it
i was even standing in front cuase i knew i couldnt get parried
sly shore
it's only if you wanna get fw up
else it's fine
bs is piss anyway
I found myself going behind bandit most pulls after coins cos fw just falls off
vestal escarp
But backstab just doesnt crit when you wanna
tepid trellis
what would be your top priority fix?
All positional dmg gone, as in forced to behind for FW, getting parried from the front should be enough for you to want to be behind, BUT they make bosses where you cant constanty be behind them. so we just get fucked over harder for no reason
Remove Shadowed finishers dependency on FW, causes more issues than anything else
Remove the shadow clones from our kit, cuz they clearly cant fix them to work as intended just look at first boss in Rookery and smile 🙂 + our tierset
Give shadow dance more cdr, rather a bit more freedom for dances than how restrictive it is now slight loss in uptime and you get fucked over
lower Storm's energy cost back down to its original point
fallow nimbus
what would be your top priority fix?
Fix positional requirements = replacing bs with gb and just add whatever talent there, streamline dance cdr for st so we can like double dance sod with cds and dance 2 times between cds everytime, energy nerf revert could also help that
If we get extra dances in aoe so be it, i mean other classes get something like that too
Hell, make sectec a stealth finisher and fuck off with the cdr shit
tepid trellis
yeh, just make it a 1 time use per dance
fallow nimbus
Would also make DS not feel like total shit
gritty knot
Hell, make sectec a stealth finisher and fuck off with the cdr shit
Ye that would be actually very smart and good
vestal escarp
Dance cdr 
solemn creek
Sprocket damage. 95%. We are now gonna be at the bottom despite having to deal with 0 mechanic 😅
Surely.. blizz will realise sub exist
vestal escarp
They realize well dw
clever delta
ionic vector
paper iron
Fix positional requirements = replacing bs with gb and just add whatever talent ...
Do u Know that u still need to be behind with gb? X)
Tooltip is à lie
short radish
Do u Know that u still need to be behind with gb? X)
I don't believe you or want to believe you
short radish
Fuck this dog shit game
fallow nimbus
Do u Know that u still need to be behind with gb? X)
Ofcourse it was meant with things working as intended
jaunty umbra
Sprocket damage. 95%. We are now gonna be at the bottom despite having to deal...
do lock players just suck or what
no way you lose to aug
paper iron
Which Never gonna happens, and that s not à rogue issue only. All classes have bugs
This is just very Low sample lock and aug
Cant trust these
void ocean
I dunno if blizz should give up on the idea of 3 dps classes
its obv too much for em
1-3 specs per class tops just for flavor
1-2*
it seems that every 3 dps spec class has one that is forgotten
arcane got some buffs now, not sure if its enough
paper iron
And that would be outlaw if anything for rogue
void ocean
wdym
dire crater
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
void ocean
im dead-ass thinking of unsubin ffs
swift tinsel
I'm just raid-logging my rogue and messing with alts for another few weeks before unsubbing until next tier
keen dome
Unsubbing having a fun double meaning
swift tinsel
vernal junco
Well at least Deathstalker didn't get buffed guys
when I ask GPT what copium means, it gives me this
paper iron
LMAO
Rogue dev is actually chat gpt dev
Busy with AI that s why he doesnt throw à rogue line in patch
short radish
when I ask GPT what copium means, it gives me this
What the actual fuck lmao
tribal blade
when I ask GPT what copium means, it gives me this
wait that is actually insane
i'm guessing it pulled info that was relevant to you from your search history
that's the only answer because there's no shot that just magically happened
keen dome
Or it's in the prompt
vernal junco
i ask it why sub rogue? it says it can be feral or survival if you like
no it's not in the prompt or context
tribal blade
i think it's looking at what you search online
keen dome
no it's not in the prompt or context
Did you ask it both in the same conversation
tribal blade
or maybe you've asked it questions about wow and sub rogue in the past
keen dome
'cos then it's just pulling the prior info
vernal junco
or maybe you've asked it questions about wow and sub rogue in the past
maybe
tribal blade
it must be, because if not that's the craziest of coincidences i've ever seen in my life
keen dome
100% pulling it from either the prior conversation, history or something else
LLM's are dumb anyway
tribal blade
OR we just use the word copium more than anywhere else on the internet 😉
right here in this chat
keen dome
Doubt they can crawl this chat, though
Although who knows when most web traffic is now LLM slop trawlers
tribal blade
i'm not entirely sure how they work, but i heard they have access to the entire internet pretty much
keen dome
It's complex, but they trawl. It's bad
lmao, I'm in a random BG and people are ragequitting 'cos someone isn't very geared. Not a blitz. A random BG. So they're gonna take a deserter instead of like.. waiting 5 minutes to lose?
People are so wonderfully strange
fringe palm
i'm not entirely sure how they work, but i heard they have access to the entire ...
depends on which version you are using, most dont have access to current information. pretty sure those that do are limited in what they can look at
haughty mural
TOP Sub or demise key ?
vestal escarp
haughty mural
thought so
random hare
TOP Sub or demise key ?
wtf is demise
If u mean assa it isn’t better in top
Maybe in +10s
keen dome
Sudden Demise
twilit phoenix
ToP is a certified banger Sub key
maybe like a handful of pulls where sin is better
vestal escarp
sure even on xav side when you're doing the big dudes and you either have to send twice on one or hold burst for a fuckton 
twilit phoenix
haughty mural
sub is better on every pull
thought so
slate marlin
Sin sucks at the entire xav room
vestal escarp
unsure if sub is consistently flurring everyone on first boss
random hare
Sin sucks at the entire xav room
same with kultharok
slate marlin
But if theres nk shaman ill play sin in top
random hare
sub does miles better there
slate marlin
Never rly had issues with sin in kultharok
random hare
sub is one of the strongest specs in the game at kultharok area
slate marlin
but im talking 15/16
random hare
Never rly had issues with sin in kultharok
im not talking about it being bad
its just way worse than sub there
as i said im not talking about +10 keys
slate marlin
Imnalso influenced by not having hoc yet
random hare
stfu monkey
leaden prairie
ross doesnt know how to play outlaw
twilit phoenix
#1 sub rogue right now
slate marlin
He gets carried by arms warrior key after key
leaden prairie
can we trust his opinion?
leaden prairie
what if outlaw is just better eevry key ??
void ocean
i miss when ppl used to be called bozo around here 😄
slate marlin
Has he timed a 19 with deathstalker and no shaman buff? Clearly boosted if not
random hare
what if outlaw is just better eevry key ??
nice dps
i heard brewmaster got buffed
u wont compete even with good rng
leaden prairie
twilit phoenix
lmao
leaden prairie
good one actually
twilit phoenix
people are gonna run double brew instead of outlaw
leaden prairie
ty ross
hollow spear
Some big wig at Blizz must actually be playing balance rn
trail ginkgo
Question, do you cast symbols before or after activating shadow dance?
void ocean
Question, do you cast symbols before or after activating shadow dance?
doesnt matter
whatever u do, some green parse warlock will smoke ur ass in dps 😄
trail ginkgo
True, but i looked at my ligs and all shadow dances were red and said im missing symbols. I activate them after. Was wondering if it made a difference
swift tinsel
Question, do you cast symbols before or after activating shadow dance?
outside of flag/blades second dance you typically press them together
lucid jackal
whatever u do, some green parse warlock will smoke ur ass in dps 😄
Can you not be useless like this
void ocean
im trying
vestal escarp
isnt demo already big in ST
lucid jackal
That sounds so useful to have in this raid
keen dome
Demonology buffs are worth 200k apparently
200k imps
lucid jackal
Big single target and nothing else
keen dome
Just buff Demo by adding more imps. "We've increased the Imp's by six"
swift tinsel
"Each Imp consumed by Implosion casts Black Powder"
keen dome
Sometimes you summon a Subtley Rogue imp
swift tinsel
and if you lag when it spawns it gets the coup bug
keen dome
Imp's being dressed like random classes would be pretty adorable though
limpid sage
True, but i looked at my ligs and all shadow dances were red and said im missing...
As in you’re trying not to overlap the buffs or?
swift tinsel
Imp's being dressed like random classes would be pretty adorable though
or major lore characters lol
lil Jaina imp
maybe a Rexxar
trail ginkgo
As in you’re trying not to overlap the buffs or?
No pretty much directly after one another, but dance first and then symbols
tacit coral
anyone know how to make the default luxthos wa for sub show the charges of symbols of death?
mine just shows if its recharging or fully on cd
limpid sage
No pretty much directly after one another, but dance first and then symbols
If no Find Weakness I do Symbols+Dance->Backstab->…
Else I do Dance->Backstab->Symbols->…
trail ginkgo
If no Find Weakness I do Symbols+Dance->Backstab->…
Else I do Dance->Backstab->S...
Thanks
alpine wraith
any day now there may be some changes
steel zinc
its crazy there is no changes about sub rogue in class tunning
Sub would have been fine if our tier had still 10 stacks and 5% more sectech damage
alpine wraith
yea if they revert that it will be cool
swift tinsel
and double the damage %
alpine wraith
demo changes are kinda interesting too
also they forgot our 4p is still bugged
and decides to munch sec tech amp because fuck you
void ocean
That looks like our s3 sim 🤣
vernal junco
Did you ask it both in the same conversation
nope, this is a new thread, LLMs do indeed pull information from previous conversations now.
steel zinc
also they forgot our 4p is still bugged
It is?
swift tinsel
Haven't looked at it lately but last time I did it was still doing odd damage
alpine wraith
even sub people forgot LUL
stray pebble
Hey fellow rogues, I come as a visitor asking for your knowledge for my rogue players; We're progressing on Stix and we were wondering if Evasion has any effect on the Power coil since it's a Nature school casting; By default I'm thinking no but your expertise might give us a conclusion about this. Thanks for your wisdom, best regards.
paper iron
which u dont in raid 99.99% of the times 
tepid trellis
well i dunno if his rogues are sub or not
paper iron
asking in sub channel looks like it
tepid trellis
ive seen that to many times not be the case
stray pebble
I got a sub and outlaw, but I've this conversation with my sub, reason why I was posting here
You definitely made sparkling my guy with Elusiveness here, thanks for ur help once again; wish you the best 😀
paper iron
basically only these 2 options would work. Elusiveness is a possibility but i wouldnt recommand, and deathstalker is only useable as assa. So he cant really do stuff about it i guess ?
stray pebble
What do you suggest if Elusiveness isn't your recommendation ? No need to have any impact about the powercoil tho
paper iron
then elusiveness it is, but passing on cheat death is kinda a big thing in raid
and he wont really be able to press feint that much often outside of cds, so 🤷♂️
either reroll outlaw / assa to have an easier time to press feint / deathstalker node. Or stay sub and get babysitted a bit more i would say
warm marlin
between cloak and health pot / healthstone you shouldn't be in too much danger from the coil
paper iron
yea that said, claok / personnals health solutions can be enough
warm marlin
just make sure you are cloaking the last 5-6s since the damage ramps
stray pebble
The babysitting is clearly an option since he kinda OTP when he plays rogue. I note all your suggestions, and i'll find a proper rotation with him and the healer if needed for that
warm marlin
there isn't too much danger other than the coil so you can safely save defensives for it, feint is more than enough for sorting, shouldn't be too big of a deal
stray pebble
perfect, we'll stick to this plan; thanks again to all of u
hazy breach
either reroll outlaw / assa to have an easier time to press feint / deathstalker...
Idk sub has passive damage reduction thats similar to assa with elusiveness up, but ye with cloak and pot it should be fine
hollow spear
yea that said, claok / personnals health solutions can be enough
You need cloak to walk through fire because some of the 15 other melee in your raid lit up the whole area 💀
paper iron
you need to be benched as a rogue on this fight anyway 💀
lucid jackal
Bro this isn't week 1 prog anymore
it doesnt matter what u play on that fight now
The entire reason you "benched rogue" was because that fight required multiple balance druids on launch
hazy breach
If you need to bench people on stix, bench people who you cant trust to roll the balls
astral minnow
well I'm hunter for stix
trail ginkgo
!sod
wicked joltBOT
Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs
tropic river
Should i craft neck with crit mastery, i thought we wanted mastery/vers. Saw on murlok io it seems to be what people go for
alpine wraith
they likely play assasination too
tropic river
they likely play assasination too
ah makes sense, didn't think about that.
narrow night
Should i craft neck with crit mastery, i thought we wanted mastery/vers. Saw on ...
You can sim it and vers mastery crafted items with raidbot and then decide what to go for
Idk when you play both what gives more dps for both
flint parrot
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
icy pond
I have a question: why continue to put the secret technique in position 1 in the dance when we no longer have the s1 set x)
for me we should find the rota danse macabre from before: I'm thinking of this one
hazy breach
No because the unseen blade procs from trickster is more important
The tier set wasnt really the reason we used it early
Just getting it on cd and proccing fazed, unseen blades and flawless form earlier is important
icy pond
With the proc I understand, but what if we don't have it?
hazy breach
What
covert pine
guys do I go ST rotation <7 targets cause of nimble flurry?
hazy breach
yes
covert pine
thx
warped ferry
Dumb question, outside of dance is it okay to wait a bit to get energy and cp from shadowtechniques before backstabbing to get a lot of cp in one go?
hazy breach
It doesnt matter
mystic minnow
If you want an extra button to ju
left ledge
I have a question: why continue to put the secret technique in position 1 in the...
Isn’t that the dust opener?
Or idek what that is
That’s some pre rework looking opener
You put your sectec in position one so you can 100% guarantee it lands in flag blades both times and to juice as much as you can out of trickster
gritty knot
Sub is back guys, no need for devs to fix bugs or buff us.
small juniper
gj mate u rocked
gritty knot
thx mate. didn't wanna show off or smth here, I just wanted to spread some positivity after last night ^^
small juniper
this is the doomer channel so its good with some positivity
sub is still fine
ppl just noobs
(its not great compared to good players on good classes in higher keys)
wide kernel
(its not great compared to good players on good classes in higher keys)
It's not good* compared to good players on good classes
modest river
i remember playing darkbrew and vibing
and then taking shadowdust
now im afk for 30 seconds
potent summit
Well I just unsubscribed after reading patchnotes. Guess I’ll come back if we get changes at someday 😉.
remote kayak
Sub is back guys, no need for devs to fix bugs or buff us.
bruhh i need to get better LOL im 662 sub and my dps is trash rn
im always top 3
tropic river
I can do very good dps on darkflame, but can't on priory and cinderbrew
hollow gyro
I can do very good dps on darkflame, but can't on priory and cinderbrew
Ya dont play sub in priory, cinder or floodgate
tropic river
Ya dont play sub in priory, cinder or floodgate
I tried to play assassination, but can't seem to do dmg, not sure if it's because i don't change my gear/stat
lucid jackal
Stats on sin don't matter
tropic river
What does sin stand for, i'm unaware
odd knoll
assasination
tropic river
aah ok
tropic river
I call it " assa "
fringe palm
Stats on sin don't matter
its nice because you can use whatever you have, but also you dont get anything in raid
ever
brittle plinth
I call it ass
white pier
Question: about the aoe priority for 7+ targets. assuming SnD and Rupture is up, and outside of Shadow Dance.. It's just spamming Shruiken and Black Powder?
heady dragon
no idea why ppl cal it sin
zoomers say sin
OGs say assa
small juniper
guy in shambles
swift tinsel
Been calling it sin since EJ forum days 
white pier
does anyone know?
brittle plinth
Drop combat, spec swap.
Jk jk. Yes 7+ is BP finisher
Shindig has a great video on the rotation
white pier
I also made a video, I was just making sure I didn't make a mistake
brittle plinth
Is it live?
white pier
Yes
white pier
idk, I don't think im allowed to self promote links here 😅
Yeah I figured
But thanks for the help anyways!
wide kernel
do you guys use cheap shot at all?
is there some reason not to use it over something like kidney shot?
white pier
cheap shop is mostly used in pvp, but you can use it to kick mobs if youre in shadow dance
and kidney shot spends combo points, so it's even more costly
wide kernel
yeah but surely there's plenty of applications for it though depending on the group
white pier
using either will lower dps output but i guess will increase survivability
tacit coral
!wa
wicked joltBOT
swift tinsel
Since you don’t really care about your damage outside dance you’re fine using kidney
molten citrus
yeah but surely there's plenty of applications for it though depending on the gr...
not really
its more of an "oh shit" stop
molten citrus
there's so much AoE CC nowadays
those are what get used for pack stops
like AoE Blind even
but if no one has a kick or stops and something is about to cast something really bad, you can stun it
swift tinsel
Can be handy when someone’s aoe needs an extra second or two left on cd
Or desynch certain mobs
But kinda niche
wide kernel
ive been using kidney a lot when there's a surplus of casts that arent being managed and i read cheap shot is free
swift tinsel
Idk if I really ever use cheap shot outside solo content