Day before the patch goes live "We buffed corrupted by 3% and also Sub rogue by 200%
#subtlety
keen dome
vestal escarp
There are no class changes for this .5
lilac stag
we get the same toxic cycle. Late changes or incomplete changes. Something is bugged causing us to do good dmg. Nerfed for heroic parses. Wash away after getting within 10 ilvls or cap.
keen dome
Midnight is gonna be our expansion
wicked urchin
fucking massive brother
keen dome
also rogue legendary next patch, 100%, ethereal theme'd (it's a sword)
wicked urchin
i raise you this
lilac stag
To sit in our cottage and remember the good ole days?
keen dome
no, not a sword. A FIST WEAPON
wicked urchin
buff bp
swift tinsel
cantrip effect: your finishers are replaced with black powder
wicked urchin
rogues already have max body odor
lilac stag
delete shadow techniques. Free the Offhand
swift tinsel
your builders are replaced with black powder
wicked urchin
i saw that you cant delete it
vestal escarp
your builders are replaced with black powder
Ok this is goo keep cooking
swift tinsel
You become black powder
vestal escarp
Mh
swift tinsel
that also casts dispatch at 75% effectiveness
wicked urchin
Ok this is goo keep cooking
this is actually the nightmare scenario
slate marlin
symbols removed, finishers nlw longer give energy
vestal escarp
!
wicked urchin
somehow we joke about it but i could absolutely see blizz doing it
slate marlin
Sub is now 20% less purple
wicked urchin
all abilities are only able to be cast during shadow dance
swift tinsel
for every purple, your black powder does 15% bonus damage
lilac stag
make sub pink
wicked urchin
now we can FULL afk
vestal escarp
Cracked Clone
SecTec has no cd in stealth and casts disparch and black powder at 75% effectivness
swift tinsel
Plague damage buffed by 35%
keen dome
Just glue void contract to the sub talent tree
wicked urchin
Eviscerate: Replaced with black powder
swift tinsel
Singular Focus now transfers 0% of your damage and 50% of your party/raid's damage
you also do 0% damage
vestal escarp
Singular Focus now transfers 0% of your damage and 50% of your party/raid's dama...
Raid buff?
lilac stag
I honestly hope sub turns into gunslinger. At least the spec will get attention.
vestal escarp
No i meant is that the so sought after rog raid buff?
wicked urchin
i have only played this rogue since bc
honestly assa is fun in keys i agree
but i do not want to play assa in raid anymore
at least for a tier
lilac stag
then don’t
wicked urchin
oh ye i dont really plan on it
tribal blade
sub is good on some fights in raid
wicked urchin
im gearing for it just in case
vestal escarp
Assa in raid is so ass atm
lilac stag
sub isn’t preventing you from killing anything except maybe trolling on mugzee
vestal escarp
Like puke inducing
tribal blade
sub is mvp on bandit
wicked urchin
i am very very drunk rn do not take anything i say even remotely seriously
tribal blade
quite good on stix
keen dome
Become a raid lead, play Sub. Use the downtime between burst to issue commands.
wicked urchin
i got rank 36 on our first stix kill im fucking stoked
my progression logs are always mediocre
vestal escarp
sub is mvp on bandit
Look, so udks are doing that fight with their m+ build
Because they lose little ST
lilac stag
run bleed build on it.
vestal escarp
And guess what? They're doing insane dmg at dynamite guys and assistants
lilac stag
Someone needs to take the chance
tribal blade
yeah sub's not the absolute best spec on bandit, but it's very good
for add killing
keen dome
For all the doom, Sub is gonna be absolutely fine for most people imo. In pugs, our bsos dam is still real good.
wicked urchin
i normally dont care about logs that much but im feeling its time to move up guilds next tier
its time
keen dome
Hell yeah, good luck
lilac stag
For all the doom, Sub is gonna be absolutely fine for most people imo. In pugs, ...
It’s not doom it’s fucking irritation and aggravation. 
wicked urchin
we killed queen a week before s2 and thats honestly just way too fucking stressful for me
keen dome
It’s not doom it’s fucking irritation and aggravation. <:garf:132017303274389915...
you know what: true and valid
slate marlin
It’s not doom it’s fucking irritation and aggravation. <:garf:132017303274389915...
Yep. Feels silly to get a rework and leave it completely unfinished
Still miles better than dust sub imo
daring marlin
!ss
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
dusty totem
Yeah even on rik alot of peps are playing sin
It feels like sub is now the worst spec on all bosses even though that probably isnt true
lilac stag
I should have to be honest. Stayed sub for adds. Our one shaman brought their 655 evoker and I did dick all dmg to adds as sub. lol
strange chasm
Sin is just more chill even though sub is more fun.
lilac stag
Devoker just destroyed them.
dusty totem
It is just wild that on a fight where the cooldowns line up so good sub is still not the best
strange chasm
Early prog it matters because sub was the best. But now that ads don't really matter anymore because other classes just nuke them + sin buffs.
hallow grotto
Hello! New here sub rogue looking to improve how do I request a coach to review logs normally I would press this lil + to the left and add a thread but that doesnt seem to be an option. I picked a role in welcome and checked the rules maybe it just takes a little time?
dusty totem
i think it is "!log"
hallow grotto
!log
hallow grotto
it was definetly !log thanks Juff 😄
lilac stag
@hallow grotto !mistakes
hallow grotto
!mistakes
wicked joltBOT
Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:
- Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
- Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
- Make sure you always get 8 globals of during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
- If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.
rocky ocean
Why moroes also has killing spree gamers
frank bobcat
Anybody else prog sprocket with transmitter. I don’t know how my brain can ever go back to a normal on use
paper iron
well
transmitter on sprocket is risky as hell
best thing u can do is farm pvp trinket 
hallow grotto
question since im still trying to get house of cards should the [Junkmaestro's Mega Magnet] be tied to symbols dance or blades or flang?
and follow up question is LFR house of cards worth it vs 655 ilvl other trinkets
lilac stag
Yes, but sim is the answer
haughty mural
It’s not just me seeing it… right?
We gotta stop 
vale pine
transmitter on sprocket is risky as hell
i would just get the pvp trinket
and cba
i got heroic hoc
its such a game changer compared to the minigame
slate marlin
pvp trinket simmed roughly 4.5% worse than hoc in dslice for me
bit of an old sim tho, idk what it would be now
paper iron
hoc is probably better, pvp trink is mostly for replacing transmitter if u dont get your hands on a hoc
slate marlin
oh ye
autumn glade
I swapped off my myth transmitter to pvp trink for sprocket prog and didn't look back
slate marlin
wont play transmitter even if it simmed better
autumn glade
fuck that
frank bobcat
i missed my last proc (orb spawned too close to the other team), but other than that you kinda figure it out
2nd proc, you need to do get it done asap to avoid the suck (worse if you are in blue team), 3rd is easy since nothing is going on, 4th is also not too bad
autumn glade
I don't doubt that I could've made it work but, it was worth the damage loss for the coziness
frank bobcat
there were definitely some sketchy moments, jumping 3x during the suck while trying to keep your rotation going is madness
autumn glade
yeah lol
I still got a purple, even without using flag on pull cause blizz is cringe and tank didn't want to wait 
frank bobcat
why 1:30 cd isn't auto reset makes zero sense
paper iron
🤭
keen dome
why 1:30 cd isn't auto reset makes zero sense
Question for the ages. Why, blizz, why.
paper iron
you know
rocky ocean
Because there are 30 daves
paper iron
i did the whole tindral progress
wihtout having CDs on pull
and we even killed the boss, without having CDs on pull 
cuz if i was asking a full minute after every wipe on a potential 400+ pull bosses
frank bobcat
im literally at the point progging one armed where i won't press the damn buttons after pull
paper iron
that wasnt worth
frank bobcat
just sitting on cds for days because i know we aren't getting past the 2:00 minute mark atm
paper iron
better get people used to the fight than wasting twice more times between pulls
but you should press cds at 1.38 tho
the bombs are yours
frank bobcat
i hate asking for the minute and people are still dropping the ground effect in the middle of the raid, so are bombs really our problem
but i know our warrior and paladin are thinking they are gods atm
paper iron
Yea but you ll maybe hit à dps check and they ll need to do more St and so relearn everything
Ww sub duty
Somehow boomie crunching them also
frank bobcat
thats fair
carmine talon
Can anyone help me figure out how to make a weakaura that shows either backstab or shadowstrike depeding on if im in stealth or not
spark tusk
Trigger: Aura Stealth - Show always.
Condition: If Trigger Aura Found: Icon: Source: Manual, Icon: Manual Icon: <Icon ID>
wicked joltBOT
Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.
keen dome
Gotta be double daggers.
lilac stag
Fuck shadow techniques.
spark plinth
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
carmine talon
Trigger: Aura Stealth - Show always.
Condition: If Trigger Aura Found: Icon: S...
So im braindead how do I put that in?
keen dome
NP i have 619 daggger from nerub ar
Ye that'll do more dam than a modern non-dagger OH which is very funny
keen dome
OH is just a statstick for Sub, but we need it for Shadow Techniques to work properly. Without it, we lose a ton of procs so less damage.
Because of the attack speed.
spark tusk
So im braindead how do I put that in?
You're not braindead and are more capable than you think.
Create an Icon aura, go to the Trigger tab, the default trigger will always be Aura, so use that. Enter Stealth (or 1784 ) into the Spell Name field. Scroll to the Show section, there will be a dropdown for "Show On", set the dropdown to "Always".
Then, go to the Display page, find the Icon section, change the Source to "Manual Icon" and set the manual icon to Backstab's icon id
Then, go to the Conditions Tab, add new condition, from the If dropdown, select "Trigger 1 - Aura Found": True.
In the Then dropdown, select "Icon", then "Manual Icon" and specify Shadowstrike's icon ID
limpid sage
NP i have 619 daggger from nerub ar
If you want a quick offhand for 0 effort, go get the blood token one. It’s upgradable to 645 (or 649 I don’t remember)
lilac stag
Or craft the 629 or whatever is sparklesss
carmine talon
You're not braindead and are more capable than you think.
Create an Icon aura,...
I appreciate you. Will this function to always show shadowstrike when its usable over backstab? Or is the "Stealth" wording too specific and there are other conditions where I may be able to use shadowstrike and it wont show properly?
keen dome
If you want a quick offhand for 0 effort, go get the blood token one. It’s upgra...
645, correct. Veteran, so 8/8 is 645
spark tusk
I appreciate you. Will this function to always show shadowstrike when its usable...
If you want it to actually be "When you can use shadowstrike" then yes, stealth won't work on its own. You'd either need to add a list of spells that allow it, or use Spell Usable. Spell Usable isn't consistent and may not work for every case here, but it's something you can try instead
spark tusk
I appreciate you. Will this function to always show shadowstrike when its usable...
Actually we can make this easier, Just start with a fresh aura, trigger tab, change the trigger type to "Spell", then "Spell Usable", shadowstrike.
Then duplicate that trigger, and change the ID to backstab
Then change the required dropdown at the top to "Any"
Trigger page should look like this
carmine talon
Actually we can make this easier, Just start with a fresh aura, trigger tab, cha...
That works! That was incredibly easy afterall lol ty so much
spark tusk
np
carmine talon
np
Ive run into a problem XD
When my energy gets too low to use either of them the icon dissapears. I tried figuring it out on my own first for 30 mins but I cannot.
random hare
DEV
OF SUBS
PLZ
FIX
DEATHSTALKER WITH BLACKPOWDER
DO U ONLY RAID OR WHAT
?????????????????
glossy nexus
Was thinking about switching from assassin to subtlety, very new to rogue. Easier transition from assassin to sub than outlaw? Just because I've got higher end daggers already and no outlaw weapons.
random hare
blizzard
fix
and
buff
deathstlkaerr
for sub
plz
make
darkest night be consumed by blackpwoder
and bfuf fit for sub
plz
slate marlin
give it cdr
void ocean
lol yesterday I, for research purposes, went on and simmed outlaw st builds with just items recrafted and what was lying around my bag and it turns out its +180k dps... insane shit
lilac stag
Ah you found another 80k
spark tusk
Ive run into a problem XD
When my energy gets too low to use either of them the...
unfort. may have to go back to the alternative method I mentioned before. Busy rn but we'll figure it out
lilac stag
it has to be a sim bait
Not if you’re a 🐐
void ocean
ofc, dont u know my name from the orange
lucid jackal
Buff deathstalker for sub is a brand new sentence nobody has ever said before
lucid jackal
Just aura buff sub 5% 
void ocean
🧮
lilac stag
Buff deathstalker for sub is a brand new sentence nobody has ever said before
Zero burned brain cells up pushing keys.
lilac stag
You really don’t want to know the gameplay for AoE with DS
hazy breach
Cancelaura darkest night 
hazy breach
Or they could just fix the "cant use the mark if darkest night its up" bug so we can atleast ignore the buff in peace
paper iron
oh yea true that bug still arround and pisses me off in keys
as assa
i m here doing my 12s IC and i ve to throw an envenom full cp middle of it sometimes cuz i m scared and i dont wanna press vanish for fun
hallow grotto
in the opener when do you reapply symbol dance? when symbol fades? when dance fades? when your low on energy?
hazy breach
Obviously that would be prefered
slate marlin
they are the main feature of the expansion
and deathstalker feels like a combination of bad trinket effects
hazy breach
in the opener when do you reapply symbol dance? when symbol fades? when dance fa...
When secret technique has 10s or less of its cooldown ready so you can supercharge it
Thats when you symbols
left ledge
Maybe sub rogue buff when I’m unbanned
paper iron
and deathstalker feels like a combination of bad trinket effects
all 3 rogue hero trees sucks, that s a fact. I hated them and i m discovering that all 3 hero tree are bangers on mage. All brings their rotationnal stuff and it s cool
slate marlin
at least trickster is decent for sub
cdr is good for a spec that shouldnt rely on it haha
paper iron
it s decent tuning wise
slate marlin
fatebound is a coin
paper iron
it doesnt really bring any rotationnal thing
besides you eviscerate in low target count
paper iron
meanwhile mages got stacking hot streak balls that your pheonix uses that give you hypertermia after bust which helps u do more hot streak that brings u more bust and so more phoenix and so more hypertermia
paper iron
or frostfire is actually cool as frost mage, you have these instant frostbolts and all that good stuff that proc and metor + comet together and all of that
meanwhile rogue imo is just "hey if u have DN you finish at max cp, fb u just play, trickster u have bit more sectech cdr have fun"
left ledge
I mean trickster did slightly change our rotation
slate marlin
its more like. Cry when u have dn in aoe, cry when u dont get coin 6 minutes into a fight, more sec tech
left ledge
Idk what more you want for sub rogue the spec has like 3 buttons
paper iron
last season reclears as outlaw
i had one pull of BBH with lucky coin like 20s after the pull
left ledge
Fatebound sure is boring
paper iron
and then rashanan i havent gotten a single coin combo
left ledge
But deathstalker and trickster both have rotational impact
paper iron
fb is boring AND depressing to track
slate marlin
Idk what more you want for sub rogue the spec has like 3 buttons
so does frost mage, and has way better hero talents
or ret
or basicaly every single class
left ledge
What’s so much more interesting about their tree exactly
paper iron
frost actually have lot of buttons but not a so strict rotation
u mostly send cd on cd, reset cd when they re on cd, and press stuff that shine on your bar
left ledge
Sub rogue literally has to go through a certain sequence because of our main talents
Our spec tree has 0 mobility
You either play first dance or weaponmaster
And in farm
You’re playing first dance anyways
slate marlin
so?
left ledge
Half our tree is useless dogshit
slate marlin
yes
left ledge
That’s why our hero talents might seem bland
slate marlin
theres shroud roar on spec tree xd
left ledge
Because at our core the gameplay is repetitive
slate marlin
core gameplay is fun
left ledge
At least with trickster
paper iron
most of the tree is useless because of tuning
left ledge
You have freedom to change cd sets
slate marlin
having hero talents with minimal visuals or gameplay effects isnt fun
paper iron
that s how dead talents work
so they can tune up and down stuff to make us play different stuff
left ledge
I think most melee have minimal effects other than dk
paper iron
and also yea melee have less visual talents, but also u dont wanna overlow visuals as a melee
it s already shit to se what s happening in there
left ledge
It’s a stronger evis with higher cdr
paper iron
coup as a nice animation, i just hate the gcd lock and stuff
or the lock in place stuff we had
left ledge
Yeah and it got removed
left ledge
I actually learned to use the dash as an advantage
Then they removed it
Shadowstep is a shit ability on most bosses
So now I just run around like a dumbass most of the time
paper iron
u wanna step allies most of the time
paper iron
stepping ennemies in most scenarios in raid is just death sentence
or u just walk works fine
paper iron
i did some step sheningans on oab to minmax uptime
left ledge
For essence
left ledge
Imo trickster is a good hero talent for subs current state
Deathstalker needs huge qol
And fatebound just sucks
Maybe if we got something more interesting than fucking goremaws bite
We’d have gotten better hero talents
acoustic lodge
Sub needs a rework since yesterday
hazy breach
It doesnt really need much
Some small things can go a long way. Like giving sectech a cool animation would, without any other change, make it way more fun to play
paper iron
imo the only real issue of sub is tuning, general talents and gameplay is fine. And i would not gcd lock coup it s still feel weird rn
but other than that, even I enjoy playiing sub. Which means a lot trust me
slate marlin
i dislike bp and sect animations, and clones bugging
and i dont think shadow dance cdr is good
other than that the spec is rly fun
plush roost
Should make dark brew a 40-45 sec cd ability so sub can have the option of a flatter profile
Maybe make it replace sblades
Just so the option is there ya know
acoustic lodge
I would say majoirty of the dead talents in the tree
Death mark in itself, is just terribly designed
slate marlin
core gamplay is good
vale pine
there are a lot of meh talents, so you could absolutely rework/buff them
need is a strong word tho
lilac stag
Sub works right now because of trickster. Its base has a lot of flaws. CDR & reliance on Shaman are my biggest gripes.
paper iron
yea i think it s mostly tuning, but that can help balancing the class to have dead talents, that way you just buff one, nerf another one, and the spec isnt somehow doing 20% more damage than intended
and yea, i dont play sub at all ,unless rookery, without a sham now
lilac stag
delete shadow techniques. Free up the offhand to be whatever.
boreal umbra
how do you guys sim sockets ?
slate marlin
i dont want it deleted
just normalized
difference between having sham or not is huge
not only damage but gameplay wise
lilac stag
how do you guys sim sockets ?
Wdym?
if it’s vault item or socket, just add a socket to an item using the great vault choice.
hazy breach
Just slam a mastery+vers gem and move on
boreal umbra
kk thought cause im at 106% mastery maybe i have to gem versa mastery
acoustic lodge
I mostly just want something instead of goremaw
plush roost
delete shadow techniques. Free up the offhand to be whatever.
Normalize it to scale with haste smile
lilac stag
You may actually want crit
plush roost
Warning signs value
vestal escarp
Sht scale with haste?
boreal umbra
and how do u sim it then ? just stat weigts or ?
plush roost
Ik but more
lilac stag
and how do u sim it then ? just stat weigts or ?
Select Gems in top gear
plush roost
Require 20% haste to play your spec like those guys in outlaw
lilac stag
we don’t use stat weights for anything except to prove people wrong
boreal umbra
thx 🙂
vestal escarp
np
lilac stag
i dont want it deleted
It’s pointless and an archaic method to attempt to force uptime.
slate marlin
Shadowcraft is sick
YES
lucid jackal
It just needs to be higher baseline. And text that says "does not work with windfury"
This text exists on multiple talents already so
slate marlin
ye
sullen hare
No we're not allowed to have nice things
slate marlin
shouldnt rely as much on shaman
lilac stag
DS sub is not good imo.
Trickster is fun.
Outlaw minus 15 second KS is fun.
Assa keys is fun.
Assa raid is… Assa.
round latch
DS Sub need a lil touch here and there,its not that far off
can be so damn good
but i hope they buff outlaw
lilac stag
The AOe is awful
round latch
yeah.
round latch
yeah actually outlaw lvl of stupidity
lilac stag
if tricky outlaw was anything but KS I think a lot more would be playing it.
round latch
i think if anything they had to add the nimble flurry mechanic to sub in general
like on the general tree
move around couple of nodes
lucid jackal
Assa in raid is boring but it's fine, it's sin
But yeah I mean
There's some issues on the edges for rogue
round latch
yup it does
round latch
outlaw feels atrocious idk what u find fun in the pirate
hazy breach
My main gripe with raid sin isnt really the gameplay per se, its that you literally cant do anything besides hit boss effectively
round latch
but whatever,who am i to say otherwise
hazy breach
Whereas after playing some bleed in keys it feels like you have way more tools to handle stuff like adds spawning and/or needing burst on them
round latch
idk personally for me,after playing mage i realized we are just coping hard here
that class is extreme
idk how blizzard can let a kit like that exist
lilac stag
My main gripe with raid sin isnt really the gameplay per se, its that you litera...
Correct. Rik feels like a struggle if you need to actually help on the adds vs just get some random splatter.
I’d love to see a more bleed focused raid setup.
lilac stag
idk personally for me,after playing mage i realized we are just coping hard here
There’s a reason rogues aren’t played. We’re just the ones too stubborn to move on. 
round latch
There’s a reason rogues aren’t played. We’re just the ones too stubborn to move ...
so true
lilac stag
and that’s ok. You need some diehards for each class/spec
round latch
after all those years i think i should have picked a class that doesnt require brainpower man
lilac stag
when it stops being fun this go around I’m just gonna be done. The alts just never have the same attachment.
round latch
yup
round latch
yeah,same
im trying to test new stuff but i always wanna log the rogue
im addicted to the class
idk
lilac stag
probably a lot less mental fatigue dwelling on what you can’t do
but hey, we’ve got atrophic.
round latch
😂
round latch
yeah i dont keep names lately but that is punishable by ganking until altf4
solar geode
is it true that mages and rogues are all the same
keen dome
Mage didn't lose as much when Dalaran was destroyed, imo. Rogues suffered more
round latch
if anyone has jaina's number i want it
need to offer emotional support
lul
(by jaina i mean the voice actor behind her)
solar geode
laura bailey what a great voice actor
round latch
she's a babe
solar geode
uhh anyway
i gotta admit its super nice playing a spec that only uses 1 hero talent
i feel like thats a big failing of hero talents is that it feels nice to not have to switch
acoustic lodge
I know this may sounds crazy but I wish they'd add the banshee's blight dot as a talent for sub
honest saddle
who's optimistic about class balance changes this afternoon?
kekw
maybe sub wont be 250k behind everyone else on st?
vestal escarp
3% to sin pls
honest saddle
agreed, sin 5% honestly
vestal escarp
5% ? id take that sir
acoustic lodge
I wish thye'd undo the 55 Sectech nerf
honest saddle
they need to undo the tier changes they made
but they wont
we need ST help badly
like BAD
we need literally 10% across the board
vestal escarp
you can cross your fingers for next alpha beta cycle
honest saddle
maybe after the trilogy saga?
it's crazy that 10% sub buff is actually the right number
lucid jackal
Whereas after playing some bleed in keys it feels like you have way more tools t...
That's not a bug it's a feature
acoustic lodge
I'm convinced the game hates sub. Why pay money for a developer when everyone plays ret
lucid jackal
But yeah, sin kinds boring
honest saddle
just push a 10% sub aura, game fixed
lucid jackal
Yeah the Devs hate sub it was only the best prog spec for 3 seasons in a row
acoustic lodge
I will pay Stealth to be dev
acoustic lodge
Yeah the Devs hate sub it was only the best prog spec for 3 seasons in a row
Prog is temporary
vestal escarp
Yeah the Devs hate sub it was only the best prog spec for 3 seasons in a row
yeah let's not mention that it was completely collateral
honest saddle
it literally is 10% to be competitive with other specs. It sounds hyperbolistic, but it's not.
lucid jackal
Well in amirdrasil it stayed the best spec the entire time, same with nerubar tnqh
10% buff would be absurd LOL
honest saddle
you forget in amirdrasil assassination was goated until the nerfs
like broken good
lucid jackal
Specs don't exist in a simc vacuum
Specs are only as good as the context they exist within
honest saddle
you think blizzard is aware when they make smolderon that sub is gonna be broken on it
I doubt it
lucid jackal
?
vestal escarp
Sin wasn't good on tindral or smolderon
it was cracked for tyndral
lucid jackal
What does that have to do with anything
honest saddle
coincidence and luck doesnt mean blizz likes sub
vestal escarp
esp since shield was broken at last sec
honest saddle
I mean again, council just has good sub timings
ovinaxx sub was unplayable
and queen, sub was trash
honest saddle
all 3 specs were trash
uneven scarab
lucid jackal
Bro how many asterisks are in Ur statements
uneven scarab
thats crazy
lucid jackal
If if if if if
lucid jackal
Who is he
honest saddle
exile.
uneven scarab
skill issue
honest saddle
you wanna talk about prog, lets talk about prog
hazy breach
Sub carried first platform and did top5 boss damage
twilit phoenix
simc damage > real world damage
uneven scarab
P1 sub was literally best spec
twilit phoenix
everyone knows this
lucid jackal
Why would I look at just exiles overall dps on a fight to say if a spec is good
uneven scarab
In the game
lucid jackal
Like what are u talking about
honest saddle
p1 doesnt matter.
uneven scarab
????
lucid jackal
Dude 
honest saddle
it was free
lucid jackal
You needed a spec to break webs, sub broke webs
honest saddle
you act like some other class couldnt have gone in and dont the same thing
lucid jackal
Sub also solod first platform
twilit phoenix
vestal escarp
vegeku OUR FUARKING HERO
uneven scarab
honest saddle
the truth is, that if atroph didnt exist, sub wouldnt have been in the fight
lilac stag
I’d prefer the spec to not only be goated for hof raiders and have a general better bit of longevity as everyone gains ilvl.
Dust was fing amazing. It’s gone. I miss it.
honest saddle
and thats the truth
uneven scarab
Dude
hazy breach
Idk if that helps you sleep at night
twilit phoenix
This is your brain on victimhood
Interviewer: how would you describe outlaw discord?
Ryukage: Well since outlaw is bullied by blizzard, the specs entire history is based on oppression. Outlaw players generally theorize how to make the spec better.
Blizzard: Fuck outlaw, here use killingspree as a main finisher for tww S2.****
uneven scarab
I’d prefer the spec to not only be goated for hof raiders and have a general bet...
I miss her too
lucid jackal
Here's what sub did on queen
It solod a web set, which was required
It solod platform 1 which was required.
It did great boss damage in p3
lilac stag
Sub filled a void most specs had nothing for
honest saddle
It solod a web set, which was required: hunters did it better
It solod platform 1 which was required.: mages did it better
vestal escarp
lilac stag
lilac stag
At some point you actually have to look at prog logs and not top 100
honest saddle
hence why rogue wasnt in any fight this tier that didnt need atroph.
hazy breach
You seriously mean to tell me the BM hunters without beast cleave out damaged you on webs
honest saddle
we had survival hunters
and they crushed
p1
I cant speak for liquid or echos web dam, it very well may have been sub, but the idea that without sub it would have been an issue just holds no water
it wasn't necessary
so the idea that were good at something, means nothing, if it doesnt matter
honest saddle
I really don't think the idea that were good at killing webs, or good on platform 1 but 14th in dps is the place we want to stick our flag in the ground and say SEE, were good.
lucid jackal
hence why rogue wasnt in any fight this tier that didnt need atroph.
You mean, literally just stix, which was just a "balance druid and shadow priest" fight 
Idk how to say this in a not rude way
But looking at details to evaluate how good a spec is, is fucking stupid
hazy breach
I really don't think the idea that were good at killing webs, or good on platfor...
Again, it was like the best boss dps
lucid jackal
Like beyond stupid
uneven scarab
We were really good in p1 queen
Boss dps
Webs
All of it
literally may have been the best p1 spec
u cant just judge something because you looked at it on details
lilac stag
we were so good they had me swap off fury back to sub.
uneven scarab
Poe player
vestal escarp
up on melancholy hill there's a plastic tree
lilac stag
Why am I tempted to ping exile
uneven scarab
do it so i can flame him
lucid jackal
Why should I care
uneven scarab
Tell him to go back to poe
lilac stag
You are the one stating it. You provide the proof and the context
lucid jackal
His guild also killed the boss with what
Double fury double fdk
His guild doesn't need web damage at the time
Most guilds don't omega class stack
So when rogue can do a job, maybe slightly worse, it's chill
lilac stag
context always matters
for guy sub goated this tier. For me, when shit is dead, assa pumping harder. Different raiding while still raiding mythic.
warm marlin
sub felt very strong on rik and bandit
solar geode
dude, you can look the message up
im looking and i cant see the message anywhere
lilac stag
trying to save CDs for Rik and your 655 Dev evoker alt deletes them, I should just played assa
warm marlin
and assa very good on mugzee
vale pine
the gap between sin and sub/outlaw on mugzee is quite big
i would argue the gap between specs on other fights isn't
gally is probably sub favored
vestal escarp
so fare sure but it's not a given
lilac stag
and that may change as raid buffs keep adding up
lucid jackal
Gally it legit doesn't matter boss is sub 80 pulls
vestal escarp
as gear gets better and some nerfs start to roll in
lucid jackal
Sin is the best spec on mugzee not close
honest saddle
lucid jackal
It's one of the best specs in the entire game on the fight
Idk what point this proves
solar geode
i thought you were talking about the current raid
lilac stag
Had to do mechanics. Rogue suck because class stacked. Shocker.
lucid jackal
Didn't know u were in the rwf either
solar geode
oh im illiterate
honest saddle
you guys jump down my throat for an OPINION, an opinion
and you ego
then you move the goal post
lucid jackal
Who's ego?
honest saddle
and say I do
lilac stag
We already said it was class stacked. 
vale pine
can we not fight over whatever the opinion diffrence here is ^^
lucid jackal
I can disagree with exile. I've disagreed with top players many times before
lilac stag
just bring up Iris vs bote
lucid jackal
When u aren't class stacking, which 99.99% of the player base physically cannot do
Sub on queen can solve problems
acoustic lodge
Tbh, we all need to reroll to hunters
honest saddle
sure it can, that doesn't mean that's where I want my class to be to be "good".
uneven scarab
Id rather be good than broken
vale pine
DH or regular Hunters?
lilac stag
each of the specs has some pain points but I can basically do whatever we need as a late tier CE guild to fill a dps need
lucid jackal
"late Ce guilds"
hazy breach
I think your definition of the word "good" is closer to what i'd consider "best"
lucid jackal
You mean anybody outside of top 10 world raiding 
honest saddle
I mean I don't wanna be 10% behind everyone on ST.
lucid jackal
You aren't
lilac stag
We prog slow so I won’t make assumptions. HoF I think you probably had 1 boss to swap off sub.
hazy breach
But also the raid isnt ST
honest saddle
I mean, we literally are 10% off on ST?
solar geode
doesn't ansurek have a bunch of bits with adds
acoustic lodge
DH or regular Hunters?
Hunter for sure! DH seems meh to play
honest saddle
I said were 10% off St, you say we aren't, I say we literally are, you say good thing its not all ST
do you see the issue here?
lucid jackal
I don't even think it's 10% worse on st
lucid jackal
Ok
solar geode
who cares about whether or not a spec is good just do damage lol
acoustic lodge
Right now, I'm sitting at 662 ilvl on my rogue. Sub ST is higher than my sin. Could be a trinket issue bc I have shit trinkets
vale pine
who cares about whether or not a spec is good just do damage lol
everyone cares, because output is directly related to raid spots ^^
it is why ease of use also matters
if something is hard to perform on, you will lose players
vale pine
ret is basically 2 things
warm marlin
grouping enh with ret is wild
vale pine
its extremely simple, they simplified it to the degree my gf stopped playing it because it became too simple for her
and thats hard to do
frank bobcat
honestly sub is extremely simple right now
lucid jackal
Is that why everyone plays enhance or ret?
Paladin is a very popular archetype
vale pine
and it is the typically knight fantasy people search for
acoustic lodge
I feel like both are simple too play and have biiger pop size than rogue
lucid jackal
That's really all there is to it
lucid jackal
Ya
solar geode
yes
bleak night
lucid jackal
It's all ppl ask about in both D4 and Poe rn lol
solar geode
it's also super popular in non-competitive games/crowds
vale pine
ret got a lot of work put into the rework
acoustic lodge
I mean, they basically dumbed down UH to match ret lol
spark tusk
Ive run into a problem XD
When my energy gets too low to use either of them the...
This will do it. Key fields highlighted
vale pine
each class coult be a lot better if more dev time would flow into it
honest saddle
I mean if were playing a game as heroes, ret is kind of captain america, or superman... so it makes sense
spark tusk
And be usre to disable swipe on display tab too
lucid jackal
Even pre rework
Reg was always popular
It's just since the rework, ret is competitive
acoustic lodge
The animations are solid too
lucid jackal
Not the best. But it's aight
bleak night
it was kind of terrible for a decade and was still popular yeah
glowy wings and hammers
good vibes
solar geode
a decade?? 🤯
honest saddle
people really seem to like hunters too, it's high pop I think
bleak night
pre rework ret was almost always mid at best
uneven scarab
ease of play
lucid jackal
Hunter druid pala very popular
lilac stag
people like pets.
bleak night
i like pets
frank bobcat
rogue stealth used to be a real draw for people - where is stealth relevant anymore?
solar geode
honestly it kinda surprises me how relatively unpopular rogue is in wow compared to other things
lilac stag
why?
bleak night
i mean off the top of my head
keen dome
Stealth is great for the open world. Maximum lazy.
uneven scarab
Rogues animations are super lackluster
bleak night
rogue/ninja are two of the least played classes in the two most played mmos
in wow and ffxiv
frank bobcat
when the game was more open world focused, you are right, stealth was goated
bleak night
i think its just not a flashy archetype
lilac stag
We don’t get a lot of focus, our animations are non-existent and our actual utility is not necessarily needed in a lot of content.
bleak night
people arent drawnt o it
uneven scarab
i think its just not a flashy archetype
^
solar geode
i feel like the lone wolf sneak attack agile guy is an archetype that attracts alot of edgelords people
lilac stag
If you made void princess a rogue spec with the animations, people would play it
hazy breach
People try to do a delve on rogue and then compare it to doing a delve on a pala or dh
keen dome
the solution is give us Ky'veza animations
hazy breach
And then you go play not-rogue
honest saddle
I had the original wow pc game, like original from 2004, and it had a book that told about the classes, and it said rogue did big dam, so I rolled it.
It also said shamans were capable of off-tanking and thats why they had shields so... I dunno.
bleak night
acoustic lodge
HAHA
odd sandal
the solution is give us Ky'veza animations
honeslty that would be sick
acoustic lodge
I just want a better animation for secTech
lucid jackal
rogue stealth used to be a real draw for people - where is stealth relevant anym...
Rogue wasn't even popular in classic really
frank bobcat
Rogue wasn't even popular in classic really
i believe it - but thats what drew me in
lucid jackal
People try to do a delve on rogue and then compare it to doing a delve on a pala...
Delves on rogue are chill
Just stealth by shit
honest saddle
I make bran be tank and use the 1 hr tricks thing and its easy as fuck
vale pine
rogue is a very popular archetype in all not mmorpg game
keen dome
Delve as Sub is pretty great 'cos there's never a rush
vale pine
*games
keen dome
The only time it gets awful is when a certain dwarf decides to pull more
vale pine
the problem with mmo's is the devs typically don't allow anything to stand out
so e.g. for wow
they build rogue as a "glass cannon"
uneven scarab
The only time it gets awful is when a certain dwarf decides to pull *more*
I like when he leaps into a pack and pulls 4 extra packs somehow
so epic
vale pine
but tuned the damage down to do the same as everything else
solar geode
yeah thats true it kind of makes it hard to fufill the lone wolf fantasy when you gotta sit around with 19-29 other guys
vale pine
defeating the purpose and only keeping the downsites
keen dome
they build rogue as a "glass cannon"
rogue tank, rogue tank, rogue tank.
honest saddle
100% evasion dodge parry, solo gruul
vale pine
Its not even a glass cannon anymore either
try questing as a rogue
honest saddle
EZGG
frank bobcat
the solution is simple, bring back tricks as a dps buff and watch everyone stack the class everywhere
uneven scarab
try questing as a rogue
questing?? Whats that
vale pine
in raid or mythic+ ye
honest saddle
the solution is simple, bring back tricks as a dps buff and watch everyone stack...
H E S H I M
vale pine
but any solo content, rogue isn't rly great
glacial orbit
rogue/ninja are two of the least played classes in the two most played mmos
because both games do a shit job with it
honest saddle
were really really bad at rot damage in raid
glacial orbit
rogue is one of the most popular classes in games in general
honest saddle
like really bad
vale pine
which is the opposite of how rogue archetypes work in e.g. arpgs
lilac stag
Delve as Sub is pretty great 'cos there's never a rush
Try it as bleed, use iron wire
honest saddle
we do way less self healing than most, so if we cant feint it or cloak it or evasion it, were nearly the worst
but we do have cheat, so I ain't complaining
uneven scarab
Make recoup great again
honest saddle
make the recouperate that uses combo points again
that shit was awesome
burst of speed too
keen dome
Try it as bleed, use iron wire
I just did a key as bleed and it was very funny. Sudden demise and CT go brrrr
glacial orbit
nelf stocks will crash and burn and rogue stocks will go up
lilac stag
I love it. It plays how assa should with bleeds
keen dome
It's really funny. I fucked it up constantly and still did 3.2m overall lmao
honest saddle
do you just stack mastery and crit as high as you can with bleed build sin?
keen dome
Feels fun to play too, minus the boss damage
lilac stag
I’d love a better raid bleed build
keen dome
I prefer the niche of doing huge boss dam (which, well. Sometimes?? we do???), but this is a ton of fun.
lilac stag
I miss 
bleak night
lilac stag
I know I’m in the minority on that one.
keen dome
I think the specs having different niches is neat, though. Like, Sub being mondo big boy boss damage and Assa having this crazy good AoE is neat. It's just only one of those is really a thing right now.
Still love Sub though. Love the first boss of ToP as Sub.
keen dome
Yeah
spark tusk
Still love Sub though. Love the first boss of ToP as Sub.
what's special about first boss of top as sub?
keen dome
Three dudes all together all the time. Feels good to blast it.
Nothing special. It's just really fun.
Sometimes there's a weird horse there, too.
hallow grotto
am I supposed to recap on symbols of death durring downtime before next shadow blades dance?
visual crystal
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
ashen crest
!wa
wicked joltBOT
brave moth
Quick question about the supercharger talents. It says the finisher does dmg as it is +2CP so when I dot 7CP finisher and I have supercharged CP, the finished does dmg as if it is at 9CP and it reduces 9 second of Shadow dance yes ?
and does this mean I should try to use supercharged cp always at 7cp
hazy breach
Quick question about the supercharger talents. It says the finisher does dmg as ...
Yes, but its +3 because of the talent below it, so its 10cp
You just play normally, the only thing is that you always want sectech to be supercharged
So use symbols when sectech has less than 10s left of its cd
brave moth
Danke
honest brook
anyone have wa reminder SOD before pull?
brave moth
!wa
wicked joltBOT
brave moth
what even is SOD
honest brook
symbols of death
honest brook
some times before insert key
molten citrus
anyone have wa reminder SOD before pull?
zac's pack has a little text reminder you can steal
his pack is linked under the !wa command in #outlaw but supports all 3 specs as well
honest brook
his pack is linked under the !wa command in <#316923682607857685> but supports a...
tyty
alpine wraith
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1223846438820253696/1360368905993981973/i...
lets gooo
alpine wraith
smh
paper iron
do stuff to my monitor rn
paper iron
WDYYYYYYMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
round latch
😂
paper iron
i havnt spec outlaw once this tier so far
fk ks
bring back SL outlaw, or the fresh reworked crackshot kir
brittle plinth
Is there are a lot of regearing required when you swap between sub and ass?
Or can I say "fuck it" and send with my sub gear
sour forum
i just recrafted my shit mostly
sour forum
we dodged any sort of balance again KEKW
solar geode
ummmm guys you forgot the rogue tuning? lol
left ledge
gritty knot
Good job boys
Nah, this is crazy honestly. The fuck is this shit. Fk Blizz.
sour forum
well warrior did 2 i guess
sand monolith
https://www.wowhead.com/news/season-2-class-tuning-incoming-april-15th-376332
reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee\
raw wadi
raw wadi
Nerfed at before start of season for no reason
I said the same 20 seconds ago
sour forum
hmmm, did WW just get some buffs?
left ledge
Next tier boys
raw wadi
Why this Monday Night useless nerf
left ledge
Enjoy being atrophic bots
raw wadi
hmmm, did WW just get some buffs?
yes
clever delta
nice class tuning
strange chasm
Dude there is no way there isn't a single rogue note
clever delta
was worried i may play sub again for one sec
alpine wraith
not even atrophoc bots now that people have gear
strange chasm
L m a o
wise pilot
gritty knot
Forced to fkn play assa again in keys because they nerfed the shit out of sub pre season before any real numbers were published. What a fkn joke. This shit makes me angry af
sour forum
the way rogue tuning happens is as following -> is 1 spec playable -> yes -> is it assa -> no -> buff assa
left ledge
left ledge
Nah tbh I don’t see sub getting any buffs
lucid jackal
This is true especially if you ignore all the time where that wasn't true
lucid jackal
Next batch is probs rogues buff if I had to guess
lucid jackal
Rogue kinda chill rn but if everything gets buffed it's gonna be a smidge behind
left ledge
I mean rogue is chill sure
alpine wraith
aug is going to beat us at this rate
left ledge
Sub rogue got unjustified nerfs
alpine wraith
now that they can buff real specs
better
also arcane
rising
watch it
real burst spec
lucid jackal
Wasn't the point of the nerf to stop the Tier from being like, 25% damage
Or something absurd
alpine wraith
that also has execute because why not
there are other tiers that are like that
they just didnt like dmg profile
paper iron
idk
alpine wraith
although they did nerf the other tiers too
paper iron
are these raid tuning or?
alpine wraith
general pve tuning
lucid jackal
Seems mostly "bad hero talent" tuning
clever delta
i dont undersant warlocks and WW buffs but buffing classes whicha re on top seems weird
alpine wraith
because oracle disc was more of a pvp and m+ thing
paper iron
cuz all i see is buffing already really good m+ classes
lucid jackal
They buffed wws bad hero talent
alpine wraith
the ww buff is for the hero talent no one plays
lucid jackal
It's a 0% buff unless they swap hero talents
alpine wraith
same with ret
clever delta
yeah that make sense