!macro
#subtlety
glacial stirrup
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
valid marsh
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
torpid harbor
Hello, switching back to sub because KS is making me crazy. Sub support dungeon slice?
lilac stag
For gearing yes
fwiw, assa bleed build outperforming.
just depends on what you’re looking for
torpid harbor
Taking it easier this season probably max around a 15 key. At 665 ilvl just want stats to be right.
torpid harbor
Stack mastery and vers where i can get it?
lilac stag
at your ilvl all three remaining are good options
gameplay gonna beat out any worrying you do over stats
If you haven’t played current sub in keys, just make sure you’re ok with downtime doing less dps than the healer
patent lichen
Just avoid haste
Frick, mines too high
lilac stag
mighty citrus
Any tips for bandit mythic team?
mighty citrus
Well 😅
azure mauve
watch stealthi vod for cd timingsd
lucid jackal
Move back every dance/sod for when reel assistants come out
steep loom
Any tips for bandit mythic team?
You can time dance/cd windows perfectly with reel assistants + coin.
worn ivy
just depleto +17 workshop coz no damage
its actually impossible to play without shaman
as subtlety sadge
rapid kite
Sup team, I have a question about stats, especially about the siren isles ring snapshot with alchemical chaos flask.
***Without any buffs/consumables, I can have either : ***
21 K Mastery / 17 K Versatility or 16.5 K Mastery / 20 K Versatility
***With Alchemical Chaos, I can have either : ***
24 K Mastery / 17 K Versatility or 18 K Mastery / 23 K Versatility
***Now, having House of Cards, I am unsure as to which stat I should prioritize with the Siren Isles ring snapshot, here are my thoughts : ***
1 - I would logically go for higher Vers, since House of card's gives 9 K Mastery during cd's, which would add a nice balance between Mast/Vers.
2 - According to Sims, I should go for higher mastery (even with House of Cards).
3 - Sims also make me use Alchemical Chaos, which then allows me to snapshot either of higher Mastery or Vers.
So what all of that in mind, what do you guys think I should go for Unbuffed / which stat of Alchemical Chaos ?
jaunty umbra
rapid kite
I'm super confused, hoping the discord gods can help 🙏
swift tinsel
Sounds like a lot of mental bandwidth for something probably not worth it
crystal bone
limpid sage
Sup team, I have a question about stats, especially about the siren isles ring s...
Not sure what you're trying to optimize. Are you asking if you should snapshot ring on vers or mastery? I don't get how the alchemical chaos gets involved in that though
rapid kite
Siren Isles's gem gives 3.2K of your highest secondary stat
The difference between choosing either higher mastery or vers is quite huge
heady dragon
bro, just sim your gear and go with the result
rapid kite
House of cards giving 9K mastery during cds + flagelation
rapid kite
bro, just sim your gear and go with the result
That's the thing
you cannot tell which stat the sims snapshots with siren isles +3K secondary stat
hazy breach
You can
rapid kite
House of cards giving 9K mastery during cds + flagelation
going for higher vers on top of HoC + flag, gets me i'd imagine like 170% mastery
hazy breach
But it also doesnt matter
rapid kite
seems counter intuitive
hazy breach
The sim already calculates with it
heady dragon
^
rapid kite
The sim already calculates with it
The sim doesnt tell you which stat is chosen as the higher one i don't understand
Like to some extent, as I said with CD's additional mastery, I feel like it has to have an impact at some point u know
heady dragon
if it had impact, it would be in the sim result
and there would probs be a pin talking about it
silent condor
Hey guys, just came back to rogue and started with sub for dungeons.
Anyone has a quick hint for me where sub, assa and outlaw excel in comparison on dungeon ?
tulip token
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
hazy breach
The sim doesnt tell you which stat is chosen as the higher one i don't understan...
It does
But again, the sim knows about this and its included in all the calculations it does
heady dragon
Hey guys, just came back to rogue and started with sub for dungeons.
Anyone ha...
in m+?
assa high consitent aoe dmg, boss dmg is not that great
sub has good boss dmg but less aoe dmg/dmg on adds, depeends more on CDs
Fury Warrior is Fury Warrior, i dont touch i with a 30meter pole
silent condor
in m+?
assa high consitent aoe dmg, boss dmg is not that great
sub has good bo...
So anything is fine I guess, just a flavor thing ?
rapid kite
What
The ring snapshot only happens on login and if you reequip it from my understanding, I don't understand how in a quick sim it would use both version of the Siren Isles stat gems ?
lilac stag
wtf is everyone on a secondary stat copium in dagger channels today.
keen dome
I thought about stats a lot today
hazy breach
The ring snapshot only happens on login and if you reequip it from my understand...
Fairly sure its also when you start a key, when you change zone or when you die
tropic river
Is it good to macro secret techique with coldblood? I'm not sure im doing rotation correctly. Im currently using this macro
hazy breach
But again, it doesnt matter
hazy breach
Is it good to macro secret techique with coldblood? I'm not sure im doing rotati...
You can, but ideally you'd have one without them macroed
You want your cold blood to hit the second sectech in your cooldowns rather than the first (and nothing outside of cds)
tropic river
You can, but ideally you'd have one without them macroed
ooooh whaaat
vestal escarp
chat chat
hazy breach
Like either dont macro
vestal escarp
this is funny
hazy breach
Or have a macro and another bind
tropic river
Do i only use coldblood 2nd technique and not on other spells/cds
hazy breach
Yes
You can technically use it inbetween if you use it literally on cd so you dont need to delay flag
vestal escarp
a guildie made me notice a thing looking at dataforazeroth: despite playing by a long time im not a player that does much side content (aka ""social"" stuff no offense given) so the rarest title i got is just Shadowblade and apparently this is a rare title just by virtue of playing rog because rog is so underplayed globally
hazy breach
But its iffy and sucks real bad if you screw it up
vestal escarp
graceful crown
!wa
wicked joltBOT
lusty swan
i feel they need to do something for rogue. like compare how amazingly paladins cd's all line up with each other and abilitys turn into other abilitys. then theres sub where you have multiple macros for the same abilitys
lusty swan
i just feel the smoothness of ret is what's made it so popular. All 3 rogue specs are pretty rough comparatively.
pulsar hemlock
Do we even have class devs anymore? Put whoever did the ret rework in df on rogue for a patch cycle.
pulsar hemlock
hexed bluff
Ret and BM are the easiest classes in the game by far.
swift tinsel
DH rework was quite good, wouldn’t be mad if Dad came back and shared some of that love
white hazel
on stix do we hold cds on pull?
pulsar hemlock
We will get nothing and be happy with it.
swift tinsel
Sub doesn’t really need much anyways
keen dome
Sub doesn’t really *need* much anyways
poison toggle
swift tinsel
That and combined flag/blades are on my list lol
Besides the obvious More Purple Lemme be Kyveza
Nightblade, Edge of Night, etc etc
hexed bluff
wet lava
What % does mastery dr for sub?
kind walrus
Is there any reason why Raidbots sims seem to have Shadow Blades very high in overall damage output? I've played around with rotation on dummies in Dorn and found that it's about 5.5-7% of my damage but Raidbots is showing it as 10.5%.
hazy breach
Youre probably not doing your burst sequence correctly if its doing that low
spark tusk
For big momma is there enough time to send all cds on pull if they're up before damage amp?
Amp is when adds die though so probably depends on key level
On 12+s are you all sending on pull or holding flag?
stiff stirrup
But its iffy and sucks real bad if you screw it up
I miss the timing but .5 second always and end up using cold blood for my shadowstrike….
kind walrus
Youre probably not doing your burst sequence correctly if its doing that low
Do you mind looking through this a bit? Second day playing Sub after a long period of playing Outlaw and Assassin. I know I am making mistakes.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/4qpCQMRvBt9FTfbN?fight=15&type=damage-done&source=1
Just slapping Kelpfist around
hazy breach
!mistakes
wicked joltBOT
Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:
- Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
- Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
- Make sure you always get 8 globals of during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
- If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.
void ocean
Guys, do you sometimes have issues with boss fight environment sounds jamming other sounds like dbm or wa?
I have my wa sounds in master channel but sometimes they just dont go through
remote cedar
how do you guys do your cooldowns for rik swapping from sin...
acoustic lodge
I hold dance if I know the adds are coming up in 10 seconds or less
tepid trellis
hmmge
bleak night
west tide
warped ferry
Crazy
strange chasm
hazy breach
Colour me shocked
molten citrus
torpid vapor
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
alpine wraith
seem boss has blackhand vibes
kinda fun but nothing crazy happening
just do things well and it dies
tepid trellis
colour
spice matrix
Ah yes your vids pop up in my YouTube recommend (no glaze) lol
tepid trellis
42 pull kinda banger
95% of that is just prep work
we had 16 people yesterday sit on discord going over everything
leaden prairie
i see
tepid trellis
so we had like 0 struggles with the hard soaks in p1
leaden prairie
i feel like we didnt do as much prep
tepid trellis
we just breezed through it
leaden prairie
as for the other bosses
tepid trellis
like this what it looked like
hazy breach
Weve had 8 pulls yesterday and then we have raid on sunday and monday, surely it dies right
tepid trellis
i guess our day 1 is grim 💀
we have a 34 page raidplan for the entire fight
that we went through
wheat elk
getting invited to 15s is straight up pain XD
odd knoll
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
proper fulcrum
we have a 34 page raidplan for the entire fight
Can you send it to me Stealthi now that you've killed boss? 😄
Or did you guys not end up making your own
odd knoll
!bs
wicked joltBOT
Backstab/Shadow Dance Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow DanceThis will cast Shadow Dance on first key press and Backstab on second key press.
viscid ocean
is there an option to remove the cp that u see unde ryour character profile?
astral minnow
like this what it looked like
spocket today I want to cry
daring marlin
**Backstab/Shadow Dance Macro:**```yaml
#Showtooltip Shadow Dance
/cast [bonusba...
Wait there is a macro for that?lol
edgy wind
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
lucid jackal
What guild are you again @tepid trellis
tepid trellis
colour
tepid trellis
What guild are you again <@83652604344664064>
this tier was kinda funny
candid raven
Our Rik Reverb rekill today was kinda funny. It made our Drud heal quit the guild and we trolled for like 2hours, but when Discord went down and we didn't have any calls from our raidlead, we killed it in 2 trys.
sullen hare
"so what is it exactly you say you do here?"
candid raven
Our raidlead got mad at our druid heal for fcking up the opening of the speakers. She kept asking him multiple times to speak up. He just wrote something in raid chat instead, so my raidlead benched him, making him ragequit the guild... And I think not having constant nagging for not standing pixel perfect on a mark made everybody play better, once voice was down.
misty dome
sometimes you need the nagging voice
sometimes that nagging voice needs to know when to get out of the way
tuckmans model of team development
also the rest of you sub rogues, can you stop outperforming me by so much? my parses are making me self conscious
stop log shaming me
misty dome
this tier was kinda funny
i'm impressed you guys 4 shot cauldron
cauldron is ruining us, we're only like 30 pulls in but people cannot stay alive
we 1 shot vexie but we just started mythic last week
so we're quite a bit overgeared
but you can't overgear stupid
grim wadi
Been playing my sub rogue on and off again for a few last xpacs and recently picked him up again and I have a question - the downtime between dances, especially the time before SB and flagellation come off CD so I can line them up, feels super slow/weak and super long... I know that's kind of the whole point of the spec but I didn't get that feeling back in Dragonflight for example, at least not on this scale. I literally feel like I'm doing 0 dps, waiting for my stuff to come off CD. Anyone else have the same feeling or am I doing something wrong?
misty dome
that's just how the class plays
downtime is literally downtime
it's not "oh you do a little less for a while"
it's "go get coffee, take a piss break, quickie with the wife"
no time for foreplay though, its' not THAT long
grim wadi
😄
misty dome
this graphic (from the method sub rogue rotation page) kind of sums it up nicely:
from 12-35, 41-55, 61-90 you're just throwing finishers for the cdr, not so much for damage
at least that's my understanding
tranquil garden
makes keeping rupture up nice and easy
misty dome
yeah, you should have more than enough time to plan to make sure you aren't having to rupture during dance (don't do that) or having it fall off (sadge but let it happen if you misplay)
grim wadi
Gotcha, so yeah, I'm not doing anything wrong, it's just how the spec works (I mean, it's always been kinda like this, but it seems this xpac they've doubled down on this - the dance windows feel much stronger now, but downtime feels much slower now in turn)
misty dome
if you look at any good sub rogue parse it's BEEG spike, flatline, medium spike, flatline, medium spike, flatline, BEEG spike
tranquil garden
haven't done the math but it feels like rupture falling off in dance is kinda punishing, since rupture is our way of shifting damage from an outside-of-dance GCD into dance
misty dome
p sure it's better to let it fall off than waste a dance/symbols finisher on it
tranquil garden
(obviously don't rupture in dance regardless, that's counterproductive)
misty dome
but yeah i haven't done the math
i mean rupture ends up being like 10% of your overall if you manage it well
oh and by "medium spike" i mean "still big but not quite as yuuuuge"
it makes me sad to look at the top rogue parses for some fights and see them getting beat by like 80 parses for other classes
solemn creek
Theres nothing wrong to refresh early rupture
grim wadi
and these "medium spikes" are ofc dance but without the big boi cds right?
misty dome
yeah
tranquil garden
yeah. I'd go as far to say "small spike"
misty dome
how dare you!
tranquil garden
example. you can even tell when I fucked up on the big cooldowns 🙂
misty dome
it's not the size... it's how you use it
dang that's a perfect kill time for you
haha
mine are always right before the big boi cds come back
like literally "shadow blades is back in 3 seconds and... kill"
tranquil garden
I blame heroism making me fuck up
misty dome
then they're like "why'd you only green/blue parse?"
"why can't you fuckers kill the boss faster or slower?"
celest temple
i dont like sub rog this season so many proc aperntaly
misty dome
the playstyle is fun but parses and stuff feel a little out of my control
i do like that the 3 specs feel pretty competitive with each other right now though
or maybe that's my copium so i don't meta chase and go back to sin
i got them rockin' purple and orange LFR parses though, let's gooooo
void ocean
Im so fckin depressed rn, I tinkered a bit with sims of outlaw st, with a few recrafts and what I found lying around my bags, I got like +100k dps
How tf is that possible
lilac stag
Change you circlet gems if you didn’t.
lilac stag
void ocean
Now the question is should i respec ffs
lilac stag
does killing spree every 15 seconds make you nauseous ?
void ocean
Well... I guess Id have to build some tolerance 😝
Problem is, outlaw channel is the inly channel i didnt follow, like at all this season 😢
So I guess Id have a lot to catch up
void ocean
Yea but chat often has some important bits...
Like pvp trink for sub, one afternoon someone wrote here smth about it and it turns out it was a huge upgrade for me 😆
hazy breach
Also the pvp trinket is mentioned in the guides and the pin here too 
tranquil garden
it's called outlaw, not follow-the-law
hazy breach
So its not like its solely from the chat
lilac stag
Worse case you ping Zac in the assa channel and ask there
It’ll break up the stat / haste needed questions
@hazy breach were you running forced induction 
or the tea setup
hazy breach
Mostly tea, but FI is fine
runic sinew
yo, someone know if nimble flurry give more dmg if all target's have find weakness debuff?
hazy breach
Yes it would do 10% more damage
But its not worth storming for, strike does more damage overall
civic swallow
Is it still about a 1% difference if I just keep ST macrod with CB and use it during my first finisher?
lilac stag
Roughly yes
twilit phoenix
Is it still about a 1% difference if I just keep ST macrod with CB and use it du...
remember you lose a lot of swag points
when other sub rogues peep your logs
and see the CB on the first sectech
you're gonna lose a bit of street cred
clever delta
guys im actually mad
same patern always
sub strong and than assa overtake
how is it allowed
random hare
Sub better in most dungs atleast 
clever delta
smile
novel plaza
anyone know how i can shadowstep out of the mug zee gaol? saw a rogue do it on a vod but i have no idea
lilac stag
@tribal blade that was easy
tribal blade
<@146180393941336064> that was easy
HELL yeah
lilac stag
Can’t upgrade til next week
tribal blade
Sub better in most dungs atleast <:zac:1341501703576358922>
you are funny guy
i've seen 3 rik daggers so far 😉
clever delta
if the dagger from bandit dront drop im about to lose it
graceful rock
!sod
wicked joltBOT
Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs
thick scroll
im doin 2.4m overall at 640 ilvl in a +8 flood am i doin alright?
young mural
you're gonna lose a bit of street cred
YO @twilit phoenix THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR LOG ANALYSIS DUDE
NOT SURE IF YOU SAW MY MESSAGE THANKING YOU SO HERE IT GOES
random hare
YO @twilit phoenix THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR LOG ANALYSIS DUDE
twilit phoenix
<:OMEGAKEKW:829051106361344021>
short aurora
any relaters? 
sullen hare
I'm guessing holy priest dropped a screw directly on to melee and then walked off while y'all got blasted off by beta launch?
short aurora
I'm guessing holy priest dropped a screw directly on to melee and then walked of...
but i like this version more
cloud rover
any relaters? <:PEPELA:925061940873662514>
Why are you so far back
short aurora
bomb
cloud rover
WHY
tepid trellis
sometimes colours line up in a way where you get the far one
tepid trellis
but it should only be at the 3min one
cloud rover
like NEVER NEVER
cloud rover
IN OPENER!?
tepid trellis
tell them to fix their shitty note
cloud rover
Yeah
First ones are healer ones
and Warriors are better for far mines
than rogue
cloud rover
Evoker
upbeat escarp
Getting 1st bomb in 3 min set 
cloud rover
Only melee to get it was our Warri
tepid trellis
think i had the the 2nd soak on the 3min one
maybe 7 times
in total
where you just stay behind when they move the boss
upbeat escarp
That thing brakes a man
tepid trellis
Only melee to get it was our Warri
funny thing, dont think ive ever played so bad cooldown wise as i did on gallywix last night xD
lost like 2-3 sec of every cd set in p2/p3 xD
cuz im an absolute idiot
short aurora
cloud rover
Sometimes it is what it is
short aurora
tepid trellis
did only see p2/p3 4 times
cloud rover
🙂
tepid trellis
what good prep does to a mfer
cloud rover
Were you already at the tight beams with magnet?
short aurora
ye couple of times
short aurora
how many pulls did you guys need?
tepid trellis
rik pull count is high cuz we did him week 1
with like 3, 4sets
was very fun tho
probably our most hype kill
cloud rover
how many pulls did you guys need?
tepid trellis
we were locked in
short aurora
dw i have cursed tech for you on rik aswell
delay cds till 10 sec into the fight because we need the add dmg because raidlead said so, and then get assigned to soak turret on 1:40
tepid trellis
assigned as in pre planned
short aurora
ye
short aurora
idk man
tepid trellis
give that shit to a 2min class
tbf we only soak on 1 pilon
each phase
like assigned soak
we just have the people that break it
right click it as well
when they walk out from it
then you dont need to drain any of em
tepid trellis
outside of the first pilon that spawns
tepid trellis
you have to work with what you're given
nah you dont, you tell em to stop being idiots
and make the fight easier
short aurora
Can't argue
cloud rover
Im arguing 
short aurora
because everyone thinks im just parse hungry
tepid trellis
there is only 1 topic
short aurora
tepid trellis
that i wont argue
on
and that is PI
i say my peace once
then i shut up
let the fiends, fiend over it
wild vine
because everyone thinks im just parse hungry
I know that feeling
cloud rover
lost like 2-3 sec of every cd set in p2/p3 xD
That reminds me btw on week 1
Where i had to raidlead, because our raidlead healed
wild vine
People with good logs always are parsehungry in some peoples heads
short aurora
that is the soaks i did on first rik kill
soaking that shit feels like the spongebob meme where thaddeus watches spongebob and patrick having fun outside
weary tree
We just use 4 tanks and let them deal with it 🤷
wild vine
4 tanks. 
weary tree
2 tanks are dummies and just run around clicking the shit
The rest ignores everything
Pretty easy
weary tree
No matter what you do that fight can just be super easy
tepid trellis
we needed dam week 1
so this what we came up with
and we killed it with 2sec left on enrage xD
the 2 people that break drain the thing down to 0 then just ignore rest of the phase
only one you gotta actually drain more than that once
is the first in each phase
native zodiac
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
hollow spear
For the pylon at 1.40 it's not even about soaking
It's just losing three or four globals during blades that completely ints you
Until the paraplegic warlock made his way to break
mighty citrus
why did even stealthi play sin on mugzee? what is so bad with sub on that fight?
or only executereasons?
tepid trellis
execute
you are holding dmg in p1 anyway
so only time dmg matter is p2
and Assa SMOKES sub
in p2
assa does like 3mil boss dps in p2
mighty citrus
mhhh even if i have full mast vers gear? i mean i am willing to switch, just need to find out if it makes sense with my gear
tepid trellis
recrafting will probably be around 20-40k
dps
it was around that for me
im in the midst of doing a recrafting sim, cuz im mostly just going perma assa for farm
unless they buff sub
mighty citrus
thats so sad
i mean its my first subtier since a long time
and its really fun
beside numbers 😄
now i need to go back as well and see what assa currently is doing
tepid trellis
now i need to go back as well and see what assa currently is doing
FWIW for most people the spec choice wont matter
dont think guilds will see enrage anymore on mug'zee
unless you got people dead
mighty citrus
it still feels bad if i do a 99 on a boss and are mid of the pack in my raid ^^ (not saying i will do on mugzee, but happend on other bosses)
keen dome
Big buff with 11.1.5. 🙏
hollow spear
I usually try to compete with my raid
But now it's more about parses as a comparison
keen dome
It's like S1 again. "man, Sub is so weak. Please, Blizz. oh well, I guess I'll play Assa for a bit".
patent crystal
Bp buff incoming
mighty citrus
we did not have a ww for the whole season
vale pine
It's like S1 again. "man, Sub is so weak. Please, Blizz. oh well, I guess I'll p...
thats 3rd season this is true ^^
mighty citrus
yesterday first time. bursts almost as high as me and has like much more inbetween dmg
lol
😄
vale pine
yesterday first time. bursts almost as high as me and has like much more inbetwe...
^^ blizz wants you to play it
proper fulcrum
Each day we stray further from God and closer to Sin
dry plank
^^ blizz wants you to play it
Blizz wants money
vale pine
I don't think blizz gets less money if specs are competitive and its up to user choice
but it is easier for them to develop in a way to have one spec they put in more effort
so they can keep development costs lower
besides being able to have diffrent variations of rotational depth, assassiantion always was the "easy" spec and remains in this position
haughty mural
Gonna gear my monk soon and see how it feels in alt raids
keen dome
I would love to know if they prioritze based on the amount of people playing a spec. Something that would make total sense from a design standpoint. Or if it's a different, longer-term design approach
haughty mural
I would love to know if they prioritze based on the amount of people playing a s...
Seems like it if you compare blueposts and notes between specs
keen dome
Yeah
I can't really fault that approach because it's a logical way to priortise resources.
Even if I, the OTP Sub fool, suffers.
A suffering of my own making.
vale pine
I think the biggest complain i got from people trying subtlety
is the endless amount of bugs
keen dome
From my own friends who I have tried to convince to play it: Bugs, weird lack of damage outside of cooldowns, weird reliance on cooldowns to do anything and knowledge gap.
vale pine
even tho some are fixed, the design decisions made give soo much room for problems
ill just give some examples
cloud rover
Btw
spare garnet
Wierd relience of cooldowns is bs. Cause it plays i to the fanatasy of a rogue from the shadows abiding his time to strike
cloud rover
I didnt check it
spare garnet
I do enjoy that
cloud rover
But does anything get parried, even with fazed up
spare garnet
Gives an ez downtime outside burst as well
keen dome
Wierd relience of cooldowns is bs. Cause it plays i to the fanatasy of a rogue f...
Yeah, I mean same. But if you look at it from the perspective of someone coming from a "push cooldowns on cooldown" spec
cloud rover
Sometimes i get the Sound Queue for it, but im like huh? how?
vale pine
But does anything get parried, even with fazed up
nope
keen dome
It's a pretty radical shift to how they've been playing the game.
ornate heron
at what stat numbers do they start DRing?
haughty mural
None
cloud rover
Thats not true 
haughty mural
I mean you shouldn’t care about dr
ornate heron
i thought the DR went up by 10% every time you hit a threshold?
i just want to know the number i sall
cloud rover
Something Something 22K afaik
ornate heron
the 10% dr kicks in around 22k?
cloud rover
Ye
ornate heron
oh lol
keen dome
I think Mastery is 25,000? But you shouldn't care about DR because Flagellation is % (which doesn't get DR. Only raw stat does) . And also our Sim's account for it so you can just ignore DR and not worry about it.
cloud rover
I think Mastery is 25,000? But you shouldn't care about DR because Flagellation ...
My Sim wants me to get more Crit and Vers now
ornate heron
yeah im just curious is all, i just get stats that my sim tells me to anyways lol
cloud rover
that i reached high mastery
keen dome
My Sim wants me to get more Crit and Vers now
Same buddy
haughty mural
My sims still want mastery iirc
cloud rover
Do you have hoc
cloud rover
Because thats when my Sims wanted me to get more crit/vers
young roost
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
haughty mural
Resimming soon, cuz I regemmed
ornate heron
where would we even find the resource for DR thresholds if we wanted to see them?
vale pine
quick examples:
- Secret technique can have some hitbox problems/weirdness, so certain boss phases or positions can make it do noticable less damage
- Shadowstep is not always "behind the enemy" and especially on fights like gallywix hard to predict
- The tier set bonus still does not work correctly every time
- Cloak does not prevent all magic damage (tho thats a general problem with blacklisting)
- Rupture spread logic/distance is not intuitive
...
haughty mural
And lost a fair bit of vers
frank musk
Does anyone know how to best use Junkmaestro's magnet on a rogue?
cloud rover
Cloak getting more useless
haughty mural
where would we even find the resource for DR thresholds if we wanted to see them...
There are addons iirc which show them on you character screen
vale pine
sublety just has a lot of quirks you find out over time
vale pine
it is rly just certain things
but if it does not work, its weird
especially on certain mechanics that would tehcnically work
keen dome
The amount of times this expansion I've gone to cast Sec and it's been JUST out of range
It's so frustrating
vale pine
oh ye
vale pine
hot take, but secret should probably drop the target requirement
and just work like BP
keen dome
100%
vale pine
you still need to make sure to hit everything
keen dome
I think they should rework Secret. Make it at least 15y. Make it a singular hit. Give it a cool animation (Kyveza)
haughty mural
and just work like BP
keen dome
And make it baseline
vale pine
I am fine with the 2nd /3rd part
its just
flag and secret range requirement
both is kinda annoying
haughty mural
The amount of times this expansion I've gone to cast Sec and it's been JUST out ...
Esp in 20+ mob pulls
keen dome
My problem with the 2nd/3rd part is that it's just weird how it's all put together. Take it out and just design a better ability imo
So we avoid issues like this tier set one.
vale pine
the reason it was designed as multi part attack is
to allow similar gameplay patterns to dfa
the problem was, the initial hit was too strong to ever consider that ^^
keen dome
Yeah
frank musk
Shadow Danse? 😮
keen dome
Oh, also! Bake Cold BLood into SecTec if it used during Dance.
And replace CB on the class tree with something else
vale pine
i am for it
frank musk
Sounds like Dave has a new enemy.
vale pine
change cold blood to something like
your next finishing move critical hits after entering stealth
spare garnet
Should you save sectec for symbols even when symbols is 15 sec on cd?
keen dome
CB is a weird talent. It's interesting but so very niche. And it creates a (imo, anyway.) needless complexity with SecTec/CB interaction. When you could streamline it, buff it a bit and lose nothing.
vale pine
or just make it so secret always crits
keen dome
your next finishing move critical hits after entering stealth
That'd be useful for Sub / Outlaw but I imagine Assa would struggle to find use for it?
I like that idea though
vale pine
you could make it
next 2
and its fine if a talent is not immidiatly useful for all 3
keen dome
True, true!
vale pine
The main upside would be the removal of complexity
cold blood + secret is still a macro a lot of people want to use
besides the 1% dps loss
keen dome
Yeah
vale pine
its just very inconvinient to use cold blood like it is used now
keen dome
it is. It's needless complexity, imo. It doesn't really add anything interesting except an extra button you ideally need to think about every 1:40ish
Or you do less damage.
Or you go to the other extreme where it's always macro'd together and you aren't thinking about it at all anyway.
haughty mural
I mean you can macro it but as an extra button for second dance
vale pine
it is. It's needless complexity, imo. It doesn't really add anything interesting...
yes, sub design has a lot of useless complexity
haughty mural
it is. It's needless complexity, imo. It doesn't really add anything interesting...
Yeah agreed
keen dome
Also: posion toggle
I'm waiting for the day when PV and LS are taken out of the tree forever because I hate them and they hurt me.
I think Dark Brew should be higher in the tree these days, too.
dry plank
I think they should rework Secret. Make it at least 15y. Make it a singular hit....
and revert all nerfs to it, week 1 ohh sub is doing good damage nefr sectech for 500% week 6 sub is spanch bob spec aura buff 5%, every season, fish memory in blizz dev team
keen dome
I do wish we had the OG set, yeah.
For all the dooming, I do think the 11.0.5 changes were stellar and I'm a big fan of how they changed Anima-charger combie points and how they interact with our kit. It's cool.
So they can cook some really good stuff.
Even if it isn't sub specific. It's still real good. And I stand that the S&D change was really cool.
lapis plinth
everytime I feel happy with how sub is being played they go NOPE and just warp how it plays
part of me misses Shadow dance being the prime cooldown
keen dome
Week 1 was so so good because they buffed our baseline
It was the blessed times
haughty mural
What was even was the point ? To make us good in rwf?
Would have liked it more if we didn’t get that buff but a strong set
Anyway it’s not too bad
We could be arcane mages
How are your pugs going btw?
marble ledge
Pls why
dry plank
We could be arcane mages
we are arcane mages
but last time we were top was... i do not remember to be honest, s1 df?
haughty mural
we are arcane mages
Fun fact:
On our vexie rekill this week my arcane friend and me were #1 and #2 in our raid 
stiff stirrup
Just to understand, how did sub go from like top 5 to bottom most spec for raid from week 1
keen dome
People got gear
stiff stirrup
dont think we got any nerfs since raid went live
keen dome
We were strong early because we had an aura buff and did good damage. Then people got tier and gear and overtook us (again, this happens a lot)
Plus some classes got buffs.
stiff stirrup
damn
keen dome
same thing happened in uh.. DF S3? I think?
marble ledge
Are we pressing shadow dance with full combo points straight into sectec, or are we pressing it at 0 combo points straight into backstab?
haughty mural
Just to understand, how did sub go from like top 5 to bottom most spec for raid ...
As I said above, it wasn’t really surprising.
They made us good in week1 by giving us a good baseline buff but gutted our tier set - so it was always a matter of time till we get „outscaled“
You could have even compared „bis“ sims back then
Some specs were 500k ahead of us
hazy breach
dont think we got any nerfs since raid went live
They nerfed transmitter
haughty mural
Also that
remote shuttle
Just to understand, how did sub go from like top 5 to bottom most spec for raid ...
Ask transmitter
Early season we had a op trinket on burst
misty dome
house of cards is still p decent
but yeah we just got outscaled and silly me missed the first few weeks to planned vacations/trips
should have prioritized wow parses over that stupid once in a lifetime stuff
tribal blade
the big thing is there will always be specs at the bottom of the charts, that's just the way the game is
and sub might just be destined to be that spec this tier
good on some fights, but overall pretty meh
alpine wraith
as more good players play assa sub parses will be lower
what happens
sub will go down and down
misty dome
i feel like melee used to be stronger to compensate for the downtime in fights
tribal blade
as more good players play assa sub parses will be lower
true that too
misty dome
like i remember simming way higher than mage/warlock friends but most fights you couldn't come close to your sims because of mechanics
but they were closer to their parses
tribal blade
yeah that's just melee vs range stuff
misty dome
but now we sim equally or lower than ranged but have the same problems
like they balanced around patchwerk sims and not the reality of the fights
it feels like
hazy breach
They dont balance around patchwerk
tribal blade
they'll tune according to the data from raid
alpine wraith
or m+
tribal blade
and i suspect we see M+ tuning around the .5 patch
misty dome
do they though? i feel like the lower performers last tier stayed low
hazy breach
And like, ranged (that arent BM or fire) lose way more due to mechanics than we do
short radish
Just to understand, how did sub go from like top 5 to bottom most spec for raid ...
we got nerfed week -1
tribal blade
do they though? i feel like the lower performers last tier stayed low
they definitely do, it's just the meta specs were hard gapping everyone quite a bit and the buffs weren't enough to bump people above them
alpine wraith
yea frost mage is not in a bad spot
but fire is just ADHD no casts
while frost has to cast
so they suffer more
and lets not talk about arcane even
tribal blade
i hear arcane is making a resurgence in M+
tribal blade
does insane prio
misty dome
i mean i'm enjoying sub in terms of rotation now
alpine wraith
it is like the outlaw of m+
misty dome
our burst windows are silly fun
alpine wraith
some people just play that forever
we dont even burst that hard
that is the sad space
tribal blade
i can't believe i'm about to say this, i feel dirty
misty dome
@alpine wraith yeah... but i've been a rogue since classic and i don't see me changing now so forgive my copium
tribal blade
but bleed sin is making me lose interest in sub in keys
short radish
but bleed sin is making me lose interest in sub in keys
take off your blue name
be gone
see you next tier
tribal blade
i still love sub, but it's been amazing playing bleed
alpine wraith
makes sense who wants to do bad dmg even in cds
tribal blade
take off your blue name
hahahaaa
tribal blade
makes sense who wants to do bad dmg even in cds
YEP this
misty dome
i know this is an odd thing to say in a place for rogues
but man prophet, that's just a knife in the back
tribal blade
haha fair enough
alpine wraith
well at least he just didnt reroll dk
like a lot of people did
there is a reason rogue is just plain unpopular
misty dome
i've always had a dk alt but he's still s1 geared
i have a monk and dh at cap too that i can probably swap to and get geared quickly if i HAD to
alpine wraith
any time i raided sub 50 wr the times i was able to play rogue was so low
misty dome
but right now i'm not the weak link in our raid
tribal blade
feels weird because i have gotten title as sub 3 times, 2 times when sub was not good in keys
alpine wraith
enha
misty dome
outlaw had it's heyday
tribal blade
uhdk right now
misty dome
uh is so mindless
alpine wraith
outlaw in bfa s2
alpine wraith
nah outlaw in legion got destroyed
ripe moon
so guys if I am constantly third dps in overall at the end of the key sitting between 2,8 mill to 3,2mill dps I am fine?
alpine wraith
nerfed time and time again
ripe moon
coz I feel miserable about my dmg
misty dome
@ripe moon with 0 deaths, then yes
short radish
depends on the key but
tribal blade
so guys if I am constantly third dps in overall at the end of the key sitting be...
depends on the key
short radish
did you time? if yes then youre okay
tribal blade
and how much you were prioing
alpine wraith
i mean depends a lot more on the tank and comp
misty dome
i think people over emphasize the meters
alpine wraith
if you have no shaman you get -10% dps
short radish
yeah think about sub utility and all of our cc that we have
misty dome
i think not dying and timing the key are way better indicators than dps
tribal blade
it's brutal playing without skyfury
misty dome
i mean i've been goofing around in keys and when i'm not on a priority target it sometimes dies last
which is hilarious
tribal blade
well the big mobs usually will die last depending on your comp
misty dome
so while we might not do the most overall/cleave we're definitely important
misty dome
if you can open from stealth or have your vanish 😛
tribal blade
it's quite easy to plan vanish charges as sin
well not easy, but with reps it's not bad
most complicated place for me is cinderbrew
misty dome
which isn't a guarantee with these pug tanks these days
tribal blade
that's a problem that starts going away with higher key levels
you don't have tanks doing complete monkey 0 brain pulls
and chains
misty dome
i'm only 2400 so i can barely get in 10s even
i'm not getting in high keys atm
i saw groups posting 2k requirements for 2's yesterday
tribal blade
LOL tf
misty dome
the 1-10 range is full of mouthbreaking, lint eaters
bad players + elitists + other insult i'm too tired to think of
ripe moon
just mill Your own keys thats my strategy
misty dome
yeah that's how i've gotten anything done
but with my rating i'm not drawing the best talent either
timing 10s, sure
but an 11 is a dead key basically
and +2'ing a 10 with randos is a coin toss
people who are pugging into 12+s are playing a different game completely right now
bad players are focused on ksm and portals really, so the people even applying for 12+ is typically a different kind of player
might be higher than 12 now even
forgive the double meaning, but being ahead of the curve has a lot of value/benefit
actually that works too, if you have aotc in week 2 you can get in nearly any raid group, if you have it now it's a lot less meaningful
and in 4 weeks... who won't have it?
getting back on topic, it does suck though to get like a 90-95 parse and be like 5th on meters with people above you in the 70s and 80s heh
dim stream
!trick
tribal blade
i'm at 3200 IO right now which is behind because i'm not degen pushing like i used to
also playing with a group who have less experience
but i pugged keys the past 2 days
and the players in 14-15s right now at around my IO are not great
in every rookery i've bricked i'm doing like ~2mil more overall than the other 2 dps by the time we brick before 2nd boss
so even players at that level are not exactly the brightest bulbs in the shed haha
lilac stag
I think 11s are terrible to find people for since it’s one below the cookie of not bricking your key rewards
misty dome
yeah but it's much worse the lower you go
obviously the line moves up as the season goes on
lilac stag
10s seem like they always have.
misty dome
are you mainly still using sin in these keys @tribal blade or sin and sub?
lilac stag
Actually a bit easier to pug
tribal blade
are you mainly still using sin in these keys <@146180393941336064> or sin and su...
i'm still using sub in some of the lower target count dungeons
obtuse shard
u guys think sub need a buff?
tribal blade
but the last 15 ToP i attempted playing sub we had no skyfury
it was miserable
horrible experience
don't think i'm gonna do that again
lilac stag
sub needs more than a buff
wild vine
but the last 15 ToP i attempted playing sub we had no skyfury
Ngl sin is pretty fine in top
obtuse shard
we play st build for sin in top?
lilac stag
Bleed is fine everywhere
tribal blade
Ngl sin is pretty fine in top
i hear yeah, every boss also has at least 1 extra target at some point in the fight
which is a big win for sin
so next top i'm gonna try sin out
tribal blade
we play st build for sin in top?
nah play hybrid or bleed build
lilac stag
fuck kingsbane
obtuse shard
it's not that great in top
wild vine
feel like with bleed build horrible st
Bleed has more or atleast the same St as hybrid
ripe moon
what is sin?
lilac stag
But def higher
wild vine
For some its the same, for some its more. for me it was higher aswell
lilac stag
The spec of rogue that gets the most attention from devs
ripe moon
oh I see
tribal blade
you would think sin without kingsbane would be turbo dog ST
but it honestly feels better, i do more with it too
blindside goes hard
also having execute is juicy
lavish rose
!wa
wicked joltBOT
alpine wraith
makes you wonder if you nerf kb by more than 60% suddenly it is not that better
same as our burst
worldly remnant
vestal escarp
and i wonder
hazy breach
I wonder how, i wonder why, yesterday you told me about the blue blue sky 🎵
vale pine
and all that I can see is just another lemon tree 🎶
tribal blade
god i remember that song playing during my school dances
alpine wraith
you can see all the split dmg
tribal blade
and we would all turn around in circles
alpine wraith
that song is cool in double time
stiff stirrup
As I said above, it wasn’t really surprising.
They made us good in week1 by givi...
yeah but now it feels like the tier set nerfs before raid released were unjustified no?
lilac stag
no. The tier was too strong. Fix the spec.
Tier & Transmitter were propping up sub like a pair of crutches. Both got hit, though transmitter was still ridiculously good. Sub on its it isn’t tuned well, but we get random ass buffs to BP to fix the issue.
zenith prism
@random hare how does it feel using magnet instead of pacemaker
I sim 678 magnet and pacemaker. Magnet ~0.5% ahead in ST and ~0.2% behind in dungeon slice
rocky ocean
Bp buff when
haughty mural
Yes buff bp again. Let me finally use it in st instead of evis 
rocky ocean
Make it heal instead if it only hits 1 target
haughty mural
the moment DS is best again is when this spec is burried for the season.
Same
candid raven
the moment DS is best again is when this spec is burried for the season.
What is DS?
ripe moon
Deathstalker
rocky ocean
The forbidden hero spec
random hare
<@1172550924519080006> how does it feel using magnet instead of pacemaker
It’s alright on some keys I save it for bosses usually
I’ll eventually use pacemaker once I get more crests to get it up to 678
Pacemaker should be better overall
tribal blade
i think the big hope is that the same thing happens on this .5 patch as last time
and they make some big changes to sub
but i wouldn't hold my breath on that happening
haughty mural
So just baseline us up whenever new patch drops ?
tribal blade
last season we got a significant change
tribal blade
blades lowered to 1.5 min, symbols charges, supercharger and no more dust
haughty mural
Hmm can’t think of something that big coming for .5 again
candid raven
blades lowered to 1.5 min, symbols charges, supercharger and no more dust
Didn't everyone cry about it, especially the dust change?
tribal blade
Didn't everyone cry about it, especially the dust change?
most people were happy
there were some who were sad to see dust go yest
but i would say vast majority were very happy
keen dome
We were initially concerned and skeptical but then they did it and it was pretty good.
haughty mural
Maybe a tweak to deepening and cdr in general would be the biggest thing I can think of they can do in 2 weeks
candid raven
At best they do nothing, at worst they buff BP
haughty mural
At best they do nothing, at worst they buff BP
remote shuttle
there were some who were sad to see dust go yest
Im one of those ppl... But now i'm happy with new TS sub... We just need some attention from devs and will be superfine (hope so...)
tribal blade
all we can do is hope 🙂
haughty mural
And play bleed in the meantime ? 
paper iron
they need to just remove cdr on dance
SL sub, 1 dance + 1 sod every 30s no matter what happens
coziest but shitiest sub iteration imo 
hollow snow
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
dusty totem
there were some who were sad to see dust go yest
The dust change is good but i do miss being able to get both sec tech into all dmg amps
tribal blade
The dust change is good but i do miss being able to get both sec tech into all d...
so we're currently able to get both sectecs into all dmg amps right now 😉
dusty totem
Floodgate is very tight
wild vine
coziest but shitiest sub iteration imo <:kekdog:907207037757296710>
I loved the 1 min big dances
Currently big-ish 45s dances would probably feel best imo
No cdr
swift tinsel
Inb4 they haste the dance cooldown
haughty mural
Warning signs angle
lilac stag
you know what would feel great? Not balancing our abilities CDR and dmg around a shaman
haughty mural
Impossible
median nacelle
hazy breach
Give us back the tricks damage amp so people want us in keys 
(this is a bad idea but would indeed make us more wanted)
keen dome
swift tinsel
One crumb of skyfury please
keen dome
Just convince a Shaman healer or DPS to be your friend, then have them be a vastly better player than you, and also like you enough to bring you to keys.
keen dome
Absolutely
dusty totem
Make rogue buff that makes target take 3% more dmg instead of 3% reduced dmg done
swift tinsel
Just bake it into sub as a passive and give us the Crusading Strikes treatment for ShT
keen dome
Slice and Dice raid buff
swift tinsel
If it affected casting speed AND scaled with mastery (again)
yeehaw
we huge gaming
limpid sage
I feel like they just need to make the bonus hits not interact with things that proc on auto attacks
swift tinsel
that would feel butt
limpid sage
Not if they compensated
lilac stag
Let’s see. Need a Shaman. Can’t tell natty if lust was pressed or not. CDR reliant on hero talent to not feel terrible.
CLEARLY the baseline of sub is perfect. Buff BP.
keen dome
Let’s see. Need a Shaman. Can’t tell natty if lust was pressed or not. CDR relia...
buff shiv
swift tinsel
Let’s see. Need a Shaman. Can’t tell natty if lust was pressed or not. CDR relia...
I see your Buff BP and raise you Buff BP
AND
nerf sectech by 5%
just for the sake of immersion
lilac stag
Delete Sectech at this point
swift tinsel
Sectech becomes Secret Black Powder
swift tinsel
if you make evisc do 100% shadow damage I wouldn't be mad
while deleting shadowed finishers and fw
swift tinsel
Team No Split Damage Events on One Button Press
hazy breach
Redesign secret technique to just be a buff to eviscerate, like "your next eviscerate deals 100% more damage, only does shadow damage and has 100% crit"
(also remove cb)
and/Or make cb automically apply the 100% crit to sectech
swift tinsel
have it buff evisc but give it sectech's target 'cap'
lilac stag
we’re kinda reliant on nimble as well so… dfa no animation.
tribal blade
where would the aoe portion of sectec go to then
slate marlin
Sectech is cool
swift tinsel
big dam to main target, uncapped reduced to all others
hazy breach
where would the aoe portion of sectec go to then
Nimble, deathstalker isnt real and cant hurt you
tribal blade
Nimble, deathstalker isnt real and cant hurt you
haha i like it
lilac stag
where would the aoe portion of sectec go to then
Make it a toggle node. Aoe or higher shadowdmg idk
slate marlin
Incomimg 2% black powder buffs
tribal blade
it's kinda wild that BP was buffed by 55% this expac and it's still not strong enough
lilac stag
if you get rid of it, it also gets us back to seeing big single hits which seems to be requested
swift tinsel
It's just a bad aoe bandaid ability
"sub doesn't have an aoe finisher, we deleted Combo, what do"
swift tinsel
Delete BP, give back Nightblade
lilac stag
The bugs suck
slate marlin
What was combo?
swift tinsel
we seek and destroy spec
swift tinsel
What was combo?
shuriken combo
slate marlin
Ah
swift tinsel
swift tinsel
Could make Nightblade like Wounded Quarry
have the trigger be flurry'd evisc/strike damage in dance or something
could come up with something more elegant though so its tied to base kit instead of hero talents
OR
actually nvm was gonna suggest something that felt kinda derivative of fel scarred
'dance changes finishers to sectech-cb-flavored evisc/nightblade with special effects'
tribal blade
i feel like they could bring back a toned down version of combo and it wouldn't make sub super OP
keen dome
Delete tornado. make combo a buff
tribal blade
like sin has crazy good funnel and that's perfectly acceptable to blizz to exist
swift tinsel
Sin is their rogue baby
haughty mural
They can’t balance it for sub hence they deleted it back then
swift tinsel
the only 10.2 finished rework we got
tribal blade
so obviously their whole philosophy on that is non existant
haughty mural
Accidentally deleted sub as a whole back then but yea
swift tinsel
funnel, prio, execute
haughty mural
Why is speedshroud even in the tree and why is swift gated behind those 2 nodes
Maybe we could start there
slate marlin
Make combo work in nimble
swift tinsel
Why is half our tree the way it is
between odd pathing and nodes that are purely cosmetic
could delete almost half and not notice
tribal blade
they could do the mega cursed thing like what they did to sin (which ended up being good)
and buffing the nodes we don't play
swift tinsel
we aren't
slate marlin
0 patch notes
tribal blade
very likely we get nothing
keen dome
I'm 100% faithful we will get a buff
swift tinsel
Unless they're not posting anything like with the bug fixes from 11.1 ptr
keen dome
🙏
swift tinsel
that we literally had to test whenever a patch dropped to see if they fixed stuff
lilac stag
I'm 100% faithful we will get a buff
BP
slate marlin
they could do the mega cursed thing like what they did to sin (which ended up be...
So speed shroud buffed to 120%, and shadow dance giving 40 emergy instead lf 25
swift tinsel
(which they def aren't doing)
vestal escarp
Talent tree talk 