subtlety

[hazy breach]

Because 95% of all wipes are due to lacking dps on those things

[clever delta]

Yeah i know eleem

But it's fun to being it up

Bring

[leaden prairie]

assa padding

wtf

[alpine wraith]

wait until you see uhdk

assa will seem cute

[vestal escarp]

somehow that assa log got to 3.5M wihtout even arterial precision

[hazy breach]

Ye not play arterial is very sus

[hollow spear]

classic Chinese parse

[autumn flame]

Assa padding on boss smh

[paper iron]

smh

think oab could be a great outlaw boss

[alpine wraith]

it is kinda but most of the dmg is on the split reel assistants and the adds

so doing 2 target cleave is not as huge

[sly shore]

you think it could but it's not

[paper iron]

i mean with PC it must be good, but yea anyway cant beat lock/ sp

since u stick boss and bait coins

[sly shore]

those 1.5m adds

are most of p1

[paper iron]

get better WW and you dont need a sub

[sly shore]

I mean

this was when they died

[paper iron]

kill of NS

it s real good

[autumn flame]

Is that a frost mage

[sly shore]

Yeah and I did more than that with 2 WW

[paper iron]

Honolulu

[autumn flame]

Gerlox

[sly shore]

and I was still doing more

[paper iron]

if i cut at 2.45 so it s comparable

[sly shore]

on average I was doing 140M to them if they all stayed stacked

[paper iron]

my point is, yea sub is great at these, but monk are owning also

[sly shore]

100%

[hazy breach]

Ret and unholy can do fine too

[autumn flame]

Dh can do alot aswell

[paper iron]

and on other parts of the boss, i m pretty sure ww just own every slot

[hazy breach]

But you kinda need 2 or 3 that do damage to them

[sly shore]

thing is too, sub does the same as a WW to them

but also does more boss damage

[paper iron]

starfall op

[hazy breach]

Theyre probably gonna lose like 25% health when they nerf the boss (which should be on reset)

[sly shore]

they should nerf reel assistant health by 10%

[hazy breach]

I suspect theyll do both

[paper iron]

i dont think they ll touche bombs

[sly shore]

because that'll make it easier to not get fire debuff every now and then

[paper iron]

but assistants yea

[autumn flame]

Reel assistant is the biggest crime imo

[sly shore]

reel assistants are most of the damage intake outside of coins

[autumn flame]

Spread cleave requirement

[sly shore]

well, unneccesary damage intake, I mean

[paper iron]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Gsbm0SYRkI

have u seen btw

OAB hardest 6th boss ever made

[autumn flame]

Yeah bot surprised tbh

Not

[alpine wraith]

a very comp dependant boss does that

[autumn flame]

Guilds be swapping their healers to spriests

[alpine wraith]

if people get there soon enough

[paper iron]

after 21 days

[autumn flame]

Some healers can do it

[hazy breach]

Its just hard too

[autumn flame]

Some healers can't

[paper iron]

well worst part is

[hazy breach]

Lots of stuff to dodge thats hard to see

[paper iron]

some guilds run 3 affli 4 sp and still killed it in 200 pulls

so it s not only like u bring the comp gg u won

[alpine wraith]

people still need to dodge

[hazy breach]

Ranged needs to go out immediately when they get debuffs, one of which is a private aura so you cant even get a large WA for it

[alpine wraith]

the boss before agramarr was also like thatç

[autumn flame]

Some of those are rats/healer swap

[alpine wraith]

even if you had lots of locks or sps

still needed to to mechanics

[paper iron]

this season have so much role swap, ww, sp, boomie stack

[autumn flame]

And yeah the fires are pretty hard to see when the room is so bright

[paper iron]

our prevoker went devoker for the first time of her life

and she s owning alraedy

that s how good is devoker

[autumn flame]

There is not much contrast between the floor and fires

[paper iron]

fire hitbox is bullshit also

sometimes

[hazy breach]

Their hitbox is also not quite the same as the animation

Ye

[paper iron]

i m a greeder and i know i cant on this boss

[hazy breach]

The coins not showing the line all the way

[paper iron]

i run the loooong wya arround it kills me

[hazy breach]

Is complete bullshit too

[sly shore]

turn your contrast up to like 70% makes it a bit easier

[paper iron]

yea that i dont understand the point

besides

fuck the melees

[sly shore]

we're replacing a mage with a spriest tonight

so that'll make the fight easier

mage is kinda not good

[hazy breach]

Mage is like assa

[sly shore]

yeah

looks good on paper but the parts that matter it's not

[paper iron]

fire s good tho, it s great ST damage and the spread ignite on closest assistant is real good

[ebon oyster]

@empty hornet

[paper iron]

BM is no good but also BM solo the coins so

[autumn flame]

Cheers will that out

Try

[sly shore]

it's not even close to a spriest

it's not marginal

at all

[alpine wraith]

i mean spriest are just so good

dot all targets

hit boss or any of the targets

phys link hits all

balanced

[paper iron]

yea sure it s sp / affli realm anyway

[sly shore]

na it's always hit reel assistant

[paper iron]

no questions asked

[sly shore]

hitting boss is troll

[alpine wraith]

yea assistant is one of the targets

just you get incident cleave from crash and other things

[sly shore]

it's not even an or

[alpine wraith]

but i can see they just hit far add

ez win

[sly shore]

although rogue can cleave off boss based

[alpine wraith]

i guess that is also why assa seems good on paper

because you can dot the 3 assistants

and hit one of them or the boss

but on practice

uh

[hazy breach]

My guess is that theyre gonna giga nerf the boss and most guilds that end up progressing later are gonna go for some high boss damage to avoid a set of assistants type strat

[alpine wraith]

well after nerf bosses will be interesting

i wonder how they will completely MAUL

mug zee

[paper iron]

lust pull incoming

[alpine wraith]

might be able to skip 2 phases of reel assistants eventually

with cloak and corruptions and shiz

[glossy turtle]

do ppl want sub more then assa for keys?

[hazy breach]

Dont think most people have any idea which rogue spec is the strongest

[still vector]

Idk I play both and I don’t think anyone has a clue what rogue does

what eleem said lol

[hazy breach]

The "corruptions" are doing embellishment level damage

Literally 15k dps

[still vector]

I just play with guildies and pug certain keys I need

[glossy turtle]

that is kinda what I thought. I just assumed would ppl would think that assa was still busted. but im still sitting in queue for like 4 hrs -.-

[paper iron]

people dont want rogue for keys

so from this point

[still vector]

I mean, casual addict is ranked one for assassin rogue

[keen dome]

I am sad.

Bring back the glory and comedy of corruptions

[paper iron]

unless you re a known rogue, u probably gonna sit in dornogal

[still vector]

Yeah ^

[glossy turtle]

soo sad to see my healer friends and tank friends just skyrocket in rating cause they can get into anything they want.

[paper iron]

that s the life we chose years ago

[still vector]

either list your key or just play the waiting game and blast

[glossy turtle]

idk I can queue with my tank now that he has some rating now. But like he gained 100 in a day easily from solo queue. im happy with just getting 1 timed key a day

[still vector]

I had a couple people add me over the few weeks because I got into pugs and when I topped meters they were shocked that rogue was blasting. Nothing new.

[paper iron]

we re not df S2 tier tho

it s good

at least game is playable

[still vector]

yeah

Rogue definitely was a lot worse before dragonflight

[paper iron]

what a good time

[alpine wraith]

kek

[scarlet gull]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[empty hornet]

pinging me in subtlety

[magic ruin]

Last season we would change hero talent based on raid bosses. This season it seems like trickster is favored in every type of content. Do you guys think blizz will think thats fine or will they buff deathstalker? I havent kept up with other classes situation, but surely one hero tree seeing 0% usage is not optimal and they have to make some changes

[hazy breach]

Hopefully they keep deathstalker dumpster until they rework it

[vale pine]

you can even play the same talents on all bosses

[alpine wraith]

yea just runfinality on raid

and rotten outside

[magic ruin]

I mean yeah i do agree trickster feels better, not losing mark to stupid shit, but i would not mind deathstalker getting buffed so we can pump a bit more on sprocketmonger

[hazy breach]

Losing the mark is an assa problem

[magic ruin]

Yeah youre right its easy to get it back as sub. just annoying to deal with sometimes was my point

[hazy breach]

Thats the least of my issues with it as sub tbf

[magic ruin]

What dont you like? Ignoring using evis to pop it on big pulls?

[hazy breach]

A. Pretty much all of the tree is just +plague damage onto your spells that have no interaction with the spec (as assa atleast they cleave with spatter and get increased by mastery).
B. The part that does interact with your kit, darkest night, can really screw up your sectech timings as you need to use the darkest night proc before you can use your sectech, especially since its missing the sectech cdr trickster has if you get good/bad procs during your burst you can end up not getting second sectech to actually have all of its hit inside your dances.
C. Aoe is completely cooked, darkest night does basically no damage, clear the witnesses does significantly more. So the ideal way to play deathstalker aoe (by a large margin) is to get your marks down to 1, then strike another target to reset your mark count to 3 and get another clear the witnesses without needing to use darkest night

But if you get "lucky" with shadowcraft procs you will need to use darkest night anyway, so shadowcraft is a talent you can skip for aoe since its not that good for this exact scenario

More of a side note since it mostly matters to theorycrafting, but a lot of the ds hero talents are bugged and does not really do what the tooltip say the do (ie Darkest night actually only increases your evis damage by like 40%, not 60%)

It also has less combo points spent than trickster so you end up needing to do one or two extra dry symbols (aka a symbols without a dance) per fight

[worn ivy]

yo elem quick question

[neat night]

hello senior rogues can I have some tips on my first mythic boss

[worn ivy]

on swift death talent yea

5 sec reduced duration on symbols

we have 3x so that means +15 sec or what

[hazy breach]

No

It means 5 seconds

[worn ivy]

not worth or

[hazy breach]

Having 3 charges doesnt mean it recharges at 3x speed

[magic ruin]

Dry symbols is so annoying. feels like im afk between CD's. Should they just increase the dance cdr a tiny bit?

[worn ivy]

i prefer to go like this tbh

[hazy breach]

The extra charges have no impact on the cooldown

[worn ivy]

i take step for more utulity or

[hazy breach]

Idk why you would give up symbols cdr for nothing but you do you

[worn ivy]

some dungeons there is aoe cast

i step into healer

last second of aoe

and step back to boss

more uptime i dunno feels good

[hazy breach]

Wm over first dance is also griefing

[worn ivy]

yea that i play some dungeons

where ive downtime

[hazy breach]

Theres literally no dungeon where wm is even close

[worn ivy]

coz it feels werid to play kezan trinket

[fallow nimbus]

Wm is just bad in m+

[worn ivy]

yea but kezan and first dance

i dunno

[hazy breach]

Doesnt matter

[worn ivy]

i like chain more

[limpid sage]

it first drops after 10 seconds doesn't it?

[hazy breach]

Youll have downtime after bosses anyway

[worn ivy]

i also play this btw 😄

with nerubian

[hazy breach]

On a 8 target cleave sim, how long do you think the fight needs to be for weaponmaster to outweight TFD (aka when tfd only works on the first 4 seconds)

[worn ivy]

with tfd sometimes ive not enough energy

for full druation

but with shadow focus this might be it

also my sims tell me to play kezan trinket

but in reality this trinket feels better i dunno

what do u think?

[tribal blade]

pacemaker is better

way more reliable

high uptime

literally anything goes wrong with eye of kezan you lose all your stacks

and it's gg

[alpine wraith]

yea if you die or drop combat too much

kezan goes to the bin

[tribal blade]

you're guaranteed to extend pacemaker the full 30 seconds

because of how fast our autos are

[worn ivy]

i was trying to cook a build where silent storm a thing instead of having rotten

[tribal blade]

nah you have to take dead nodes

well 1 dead node

and rotten does the job that silent storm does anyways

[worn ivy]

yea but on that side

i can get slow

aswell

50%

[hazy breach]

If only there was another way to get slows

[tribal blade]

some sort of poison

perhaps

mayhaps

[worn ivy]

cannot give up

antopic

too good

[tribal blade]

problem also is silent storm does nothing on ST

[barren wolf]

and like having permanent slow is actually bad for the group

in m+

theres a reason you see people not use it on assa in high keys

[tribal blade]

yeah a lot of sin rogues don't have crippling on

for most of dungeons

because it makes gathering slower

way slower

[barren wolf]

and just moving

to like chain, or towards another section

[tribal blade]

i started to not put on crippling during sin keys

sometimes tanks get pissed if you ahve it on

[worn ivy]

so listen ive been playing +15 keys mostly 1-2 week the problem is subtlety is cd depended you do z otuside of cds right and there is where u need to hold too much in high keys

like sometimes your cds coming middle pull

if u sent its bad

if u hold

its bad

[barren wolf]

then play assa

[worn ivy]

the was the biggest problem

[tribal blade]

sending in the middle of a pull can be ok if everything is relatively high health still

[worn ivy]

yea but in reality its not

coz they u cannot calculate everytime

you pop for example

ele pops same time

[barren wolf]

you cant solve how the spec does its dmg through some talent choices that give like no damage

[worn ivy]

and sometimes you hold 2-3 mobs not dying like 40 sec slows the group down

[alpine wraith]

most of the time that is where chain pulling comes into effect

[hazy breach]

Well if you make yourself do less damage then you might be able to fit your burst into those windows

[tribal blade]

you can send a solo dance+symbols to kill off the remaining packs

[hazy breach]

[alpine wraith]

yea lots of the time you can dance+sod+sec tech maybe not use cb

[barren wolf]

youre onto something

[alpine wraith]

or something

[barren wolf]

maybe play an aug too

you get cds every pack

[tribal blade]

if you have to hold cds and stuff is still alive you can pretty safely send a solo dance+symbols

and then get the cdr/cd back going to the next pack

[worn ivy]

i do like that

[neat night]

only play with affix cdr

[worn ivy]

but next pack i need to farm dance

[neat night]

ez

[worn ivy]

to send again its like tricky also its not set you know

everykey level

[tribal blade]

you can spread rupture at the start

[barren wolf]

dont tell him it doesnt affect your trinket which is extremely important

[tribal blade]

that farms cdr

[worn ivy]

cds coming up differently

you need to adapt

[tribal blade]

and you spread rupture for more burst

win win

[neat night]

don t tell him there s no affix in +15 !

[hazy breach]

The ideal way to play it is to just chain onto a new pull whenever your cooldowns come up, but thats not feasible in pugs

[barren wolf]

please don't i tell me i dont want to go in keys above 10 anymore

[worn ivy]

yea subtlety is really hard to play with pugs

coz no one plays arround u

[alpine wraith]

ye you need to kinda plan around

[worn ivy]

they check AG is up go

[alpine wraith]

that is cool for me at least

[worn ivy]

bust is UP go

i tried this fuu build where u go 1 sod and darkbrew

it also feels like i dunno

doesnt feel right

[alpine wraith]

yea i prefer the normal rotten one

[neat night]

why is sometimes my shadowBlades doing 200k dps sometimes 450k

im clueless

[tribal blade]

the big problem with the 1 sod DB build is you don't have enough symbols for dance cdr

so you're gonna cap dance charges

i'm guessing you just send a naked dance

but that prob feels horrendous

[alpine wraith]

if you crit blades do more dmg too

it comes from the skills you use

[neat night]

I always use the same rotation with blades tho

[alpine wraith]

so just rng

[neat night]

Hmm okay

[alpine wraith]

yea but if your evis crits instead of doing 2m it does 4

blades will do double too

or not

[neat night]

Because when I analyse logs I always see a difference in dps between their sectec evis and mine, could be from them holding the cds and use it at the right time when everything is up or smth like that I guess ?

[tribal blade]

many different reasons why

1 could be if you time your dances around add spawns on bosses

[alpine wraith]

just get better procs

[tribal blade]

your sectec is gonna do way more

than someone who's not using dances like that

[alpine wraith]

the best players will play with azerokk and just proc on every dance

[tribal blade]

T R U E

just proc 5head

[alpine wraith]

yea man oh and also remember to crit your evis

twice

thx gaem

[neat night]

ye if only our tanks were using brains

[tribal blade]

i'm using pacemaker in raid

even on sprocket

[alpine wraith]

im a drink enjoyer

[tribal blade]

i've been trying to get a drink 😦

[alpine wraith]

and mechanocore next week likely because i got an hero one

[tribal blade]

i think i've gotten every other trinket besides that one

[alpine wraith]

remember you can buy 2 keys per week

for undercuck coins

[neat night]

but then I also fked up my cds because of team, first P2 of vexie I do nearly 9M and 2nd I do 4M because the bike didn t fill up

then we r running around on the freakin oil patches

we were dancing, not shadow dancccing tho

[alpine wraith]

that reminds me i have to pug mythic this week

fml

[neat night]

i ll try to ascend and do 90 parses

[glass jasper]

oh the horrors, had to do it on hunter

[steep raven]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[alpine wraith]

did you manage to kill cauldron

i dont know how pugs are nowadats

i cbad first weeks but now we dont raid monday and still unsaved so

[worn ivy]

how about this?

OR THİS

having 2 sod no darkbrew or having darkbrew 1 sod

which one is better?

[median nacelle]

personal pref

[distant quarry]

https://gyazo.com/47f47e57f0126364ebaf55cc582f2cc7

[worn ivy]

perkerrrrrrrr @distant quarry

[alpine wraith]

sadly losing DD and inev is quite a big loss

[neat night]

sometimes there s a little desync between my dance and secctec about 15s, and my 1min30 cds come back in 30sec, should I send sectec alone ?

[alpine wraith]

for db

[tribal blade]

if you play DB you def want to spread ruptures before cds

since rupture ticks like a truck with DB

[worn ivy]

true

[alpine wraith]

yea funnily enough tier set buffs rupture in dance

if you have db

in theory

because we know how blizz works

[tribal blade]

haha has anyone tested if DB ruptures get buffed by the tier set?

[alpine wraith]

not me

[tribal blade]

that would actually be huge rupture damage in cds if it does

[hazy breach]

Probably does. Only thing that doesnt work is setech like 66% of the time

[tribal blade]

tragic

[alpine wraith]

hidden rng

[worn ivy]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/wd6qcKrqZjyzAxKGMcYuCt

8t 1:30 min fight

need to test how much do i lose st tho

whats the best ST sim like 5min 1t ?

[fringe palm]

for m+ 3min

all of that for 1 point in finality

[paper iron]

yea 3m for m+

[worn ivy]

no its completly different

did u see what i play

silent storm to cover spreading fw aoe

4 min ST fight

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/neLdjBddwiJAYD1BNcBFpo

i dunno if its worth

need more tweaks

[fringe palm]

9% st for 0.7% in aoe, even less if you skip rotten for 1 finality point which is even or better on st already

never worth

[worn ivy]

what if i get in deeper daggers

i dunno man i wanna do damage outside of cds

like not big but i wanna be conssitent

[fringe palm]

the secret talent tech for sub to do more aoe and less st dmg

is speccing assa

[crystal bone]

what is the % dmg gain if that was fixed?

[worn ivy]

what if we play without flag ? 😄

poggers

[hazy breach]

idk not that much

But its probably not getting fixed

[clever delta]

Why fixing

[crystal bone]

bugtlety

🐛

[clever delta]

Next season soon

And bug be gone

And we got new sectech bug

[paper iron]

you wanna do damage outside of cd

reroll assa

you ll do more than sub in cd, and you ll be usefull outside of cds

only lacking a bit of ST

[tribal blade]

yeah as sin you can do aoe every single pull without fail

[vale pine]

Not every bug needs to be fixed, some bugs survive for years^^

[tribal blade]

i've been running mostly sin keys recently to get used to it again

[paper iron]

same

[tribal blade]

sin just feels like turbo dogshit in ST

[paper iron]

and i wanna gear my outlaw cuz in couple keys it seems real real good

[tribal blade]

but that's the tradeoff

[paper iron]

watching the best comp rn

[alpine wraith]

my fav is just something is bugged for 6 years

[paper iron]

dk mk ele

well

[alpine wraith]

and the solution is just delet it

[paper iron]

apparently ST isnt needed

[alpine wraith]

and forget it exists

until

IT COMES BACK

like nightstalker

[paper iron]

delete packs asap and do 5mn bosses, can time everything in 17 this way

[alpine wraith]

then it is bugged again

[slate marlin]

mk?

[vale pine]

haha ^^

[paper iron]

moonkin

[tribal blade]

honestly the bosses this season aren't too bad

except maybe workshop

[paper iron]

ya guys zoomers noone understand when i say mk

[vale pine]

i mean, some bugs might date back to classic

[alpine wraith]

yea do a 5 min machinist

i dare you

[slate marlin]

why mk when u csn call it star chicken

[tribal blade]

fuck that boss

[alpine wraith]

enough gears to set up a new shop

[tribal blade]

i would solely play sub in workshop just for the bosses

[paper iron]

they nerfed machinist tho

saw disappears at some point

[tribal blade]

they did but i still hate it

[alpine wraith]

they do?

[paper iron]

on my mage i m chilling

[slate marlin]

after killing the hesler twice

[paper iron]

up the stairs

[tribal blade]

melee are in the trenches dodges grenades

[paper iron]

then on top of the door where saw cant hit me

like this boss as range vs melee

is like the halondrus meme

ya remember?

[tribal blade]

lol yes

[paper iron]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHTsaJRai24

[clever delta]

Fuu

[paper iron]

exactly how i deal with this boss as mage vs rogue

[clever delta]

Are we getting buff this week?

Pretty please

I was nice boy

[tribal blade]

i would love for sub to get buffs

pretty please too

[paper iron]

nah no sub buffs inc

thought assa need more ST buff it s not good enough

[alpine wraith]

if they revert the evis and sec tech nerfs

we good

will they?

nah

but might buff arcane and frost again

[clever delta]

That would be nice

I was thinking about it

All they need to do is revert last nerf

[tribal blade]

i would be shocked if they reverted those nerfs

doesn't seem like something they do often

[clever delta]

I would actually delete signet and never go back to assa channel

[tribal blade]

i'm honestly having fun doing keys as sin tbh

[paper iron]

just rework the set

make it like uhdk

when u press blade you get 16 stacks of winning streak

gg

[tribal blade]

the ability to do aoe dam consistently feels nice

[twilit phoenix]

Unholy tier is crazy

[clever delta]

Yeah assa in keys is indeed nice

[twilit phoenix]

Assa is awesome in keys until you get to bosses

[tribal blade]

i just HATE ds

[twilit phoenix]

Then I want to kms

[clever delta]

But my main sub gear is same ilvl as my alt dh which never saw raid

[paper iron]

i mean the strengh of unholy set is that it s GUARANTEED when they press cd

meanwhile as sub

u press cd and stick at 2 stacks

i kinda like the assa way of "losing it will instead make it stronger for a little moment"

[clever delta]

Just give full stacks for sb

That's all

[tribal blade]

sub tier should guaranteed give like ~5 stacks when you go into dance immediately

[paper iron]

this is real good

[twilit phoenix]

That’s why you delay your cds by 30+ secs for procs

[paper iron]

at least losing it have a chance to no lose it

almost every casters if not every casters have the same way

when they press cd

they re guaranteed to proc tier set

but all melee besides uhdk are just fully random

it s bad

[vale pine]

i don't think we will see any change

[clever delta]

Damn

My cope is gone

Time to go back to work

Ruined my day literary

[paper iron]

yea i dont think either sub will get anything even tho it surely deserves a bit of love

[vale pine]

why would sub get buffs?

[paper iron]

not that much, but last patch made sub just bad while it was at a decent "top mid" spot

[crystal bone]

if sub got buffs holy

[vale pine]

i mean that was the idea

[crystal bone]

we would be goated in keys

[vale pine]

the buff to assassination was basically to make it better

[paper iron]

well in keys sub needs a lot lot lot of loves to be goated

[vale pine]

because you would have seen sub buffs too else

[paper iron]

yea it blast boss damage, but that s kinda it

[tribal blade]

sub right now is good in cds, but the downtime is really bad

[hazy breach]

It does really high aoe when its cooldowns are up too, if you can reasonably pull around it

[tribal blade]

that's the major problem

[vale pine]

fight specifics can still make sub situational better

[wild vine]

yeah kinda like fire

just not as strong

[paper iron]

it does less aoe dam than assa / mage / devoker / uhdk and the list can goes on

CD vs CD

while bringing nothing, as the selfish rogue it is

[hazy breach]

it doesnt do less than assa does in cds though

Unholy ye sure

[twilit phoenix]

Assa still wanks major hog outside of cds

[paper iron]

i call @random hare to tell us his personnal feelings on this since he played both a lot lot lot

also assa prio is just insanely valuable

a pack above 25s long is just a dead sub imo, but maybe i m wrong

[vale pine]

sub is still fine, its not like worse spec in the game

[vale tusk]

Hi guys looking for some advice I’m new to sub rogue tried the add on for rotation help so I can get a good idea of orders I’ve read the wowhead guide also, is it right to only use black powder and shuriken storm at 7+ targets ?

[twilit phoenix]

Assa prio is dummy

[paper iron]

defiinitly not the worst spec in the game for m+, but byyyyy far a good one, i would rank it bottom mid in my own tier list

[vale pine]

yes, storm once during dance on 7+, bp on 7+

[paper iron]

if i was making twitter content

[vale pine]

but storm outside of dance already on 3

tier lists are not specifically content with a lot of expertise put into them

they are mostly "bro trust me" science

[paper iron]

that s why i was joking about it. People who makes tier list are just doing it for the funnies

[crystal bone]

the archon tierlist is certainly a cook

[paper iron]

also i hate the way archon is calling their thing a tier list

[crystal bone]

[vale pine]

its basically because people search for the term

[vale tusk]

Is that with using the wowhead build you’ve made?

[paper iron]

this is not a tier list

this is a data list at most

[crystal bone]

wait what

all in S

[paper iron]

also their bot just automatically placed everything in S

[native zodiac]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[paper iron]

the worst tier list i ve ever seen

it s just a spec list now

[vale pine]

yes, its with the rotten build

[vale pine]

24 specs in s tier

[fringe palm]

move a to b tier and a couple s specs to a and its not that bad

[vale pine]

[tropic nimbus]

Need to click on “high keys”

[crystal bone]

i think it bugged out

[neat night]

kekw

[crystal bone]

i looked at it 2 days ago and it looked better than that at least

[tribal blade]

set it to high keys

it looks better

[paper iron]

ok here high keys

so

still

it s not a tier list

it s a data list

[fringe palm]

what defines a tier list

[random hare]

Sin and sub do the ~same dps in aoe inside of cds

Sin is harder to pull off tho

[paper iron]

feral is all the way up there just because there are 10 peoples playing feral and they pushing hard, not because feral is meta strong

[vale pine]

if sin and sub do the same during cds

sub is kinda fucked

because it does nothing outside of cds

[tribal blade]

yeah sin can do that every pack

[random hare]

Yea sin does way more out of cds in aoe

[native zodiac]

The only tierlist i trust is fuus A B C tierlist

[paper iron]

exactly what i said

that s why sub CDs are a bait imo

[fringe palm]

7 backstabs in 20s is not nothing ok

[paper iron]

it s strong for 20s in single target

[random hare]

In m+ yes

[paper iron]

then it s bad

[random hare]

It’s bait

[hazy breach]

I mean sure on 20 targets

[vale pine]

i would assume sub does more in cd's

[random hare]

Sub can do more if the target count is like 4-5

Or 3-5

[hazy breach]

But no way assa is doing 18M on like 6 targets

[crystal bone]

^

[random hare]

Barely any packs have 6 mobs

[paper iron]

yea sub is probably better at 6 and less target, but not by a far i think

and it s rare

[random hare]

U always pull slightly bigger

[paper iron]

since the meta is heavy aoe for now and dungeons are good for aoe pulling

[fringe palm]

subs tradeoff is that you play st spec in m+, so you can carry bosses

[crystal bone]

top is the only true sub key i'm betting

[paper iron]

it indeed is the strengh of the spec

[random hare]

Except u don’t rly carry bosses

Not anymore

[tropic nimbus]

The st niche really Isn’t even a thing anymore

[paper iron]

but again look at the current meta

[random hare]

It was a week 1 thing

[paper iron]

ele mk uhdk

u dont care about boss dam

u just delete packs and deal with 5mn bosses

[random hare]

Now other classes do our boss dmg on sub especially when the boss dies while our cd is ready

[fringe palm]

yeah thats a different issue

[random hare]

We usually end up bottom boss dmg at this point

[paper iron]

yea kill timers currently sucks for sub

[neat night]

that s so much a thing i ve been experiencing

[paper iron]

on bosses

[random hare]

Again, sub was good in week 1 m+ when no one had gear

[fringe palm]

who except firemage beats sub on st if fight time doesnt giga fuck cds

[random hare]

Not anymore tho

[fringe palm]

in m+ spec

[random hare]

A lot of classes

Lol

Wdym

[neat night]

monk

[paper iron]

yea in week 1 when sub had transmitter and other classes doenst have a thing

sub was goated

[random hare]

I don’t think our St is near exceptional enough to bring a sub rogue for st

[paper iron]

^

strongly agree

[alpine wraith]

the thing about sub cds that people dont understand is that they are not even strong in aoe

[paper iron]

^

[fringe palm]

i agree

[paper iron]

strongly agree again

[alpine wraith]

strong cds for our dmg profile would be doing 50 to 60 million

if afterwards you will do 400k dps

[random hare]

We do a lot of dps outside of cds as sub in aoe ngl

But

[alpine wraith]

kinda like uhdk

[random hare]

I think our dmg has to be buffed

[alpine wraith]

more like we still have a lot of shit on builders

[random hare]

Sub doing 0 dps out of cds is fake in m+

[tropic nimbus]

Surely that early sectech nerf was needed

[fringe palm]

sub will never see a buff this patch 0% chance

[random hare]

Only exists on bosses

[alpine wraith]

in st it is not that problematic

but on aoe it is hilarious

[random hare]

Prepatch nerf literal monkeys I called it from day 1

[paper iron]

sub aoe outside of cds is ok, it s not assa, it s not ele, it s not any other specs, but it s not dead

[alpine wraith]

we knew what was going to happen

even on the tier set nerfs

the orangutans

[twilit phoenix]

Pre week nerfs is crazy

I don’t get it

[alpine wraith]

with old tier set at least we had some hope of being a real cds class

now even MM hunters doing their regular rotation outburst us

and ours lasts 20 secs theirs 40

[paper iron]

MM is wild rn

[twilit phoenix]

Nerfs are short sighted

[tepid trellis]

Personally I love being 13th 14th one meters

[mint swift]

For once it's better than BM

[random hare]

Sin still does abit higher

In overall

[paper iron]

like currently my only purpose in raid is to have CDs for premium bomb in AOE

[mint swift]

Like if you told me i'd have to swap my spec to MM to queue as BM id be surprised

[paper iron]

MM is really really wide in variance

[random hare]

In m+ that is

[mint swift]

You know who else is really wide

[paper iron]

if they full proc and crit their exploshot or idk what s the deal

[alpine wraith]

vs

[random hare]

And mm has higher st than sin so they’re fine

[native zodiac]

Dw we will see another random as dev evoker buff again prob

[paper iron]

they destroy everything

[alpine wraith]

one does same burst but also 1m more on downtime

[paper iron]

yea hacha in fact

[mint swift]

That really isn't saying much tho

[paper iron]

the only real burst strengh of sub

[mint swift]

Lets be fair

[paper iron]

last like 12s

[alpine wraith]

sub is not a strong burst spec it is something weird

[paper iron]

it s the best burst spec for 12s

[alpine wraith]

strange

[paper iron]

then it s dead

in +10 keys sub is great

[random hare]

In m+ mm is strong

[alpine wraith]

like our graph would be fine

if that 7.5 was like 10 or 12m

then the dropoff would be ok

[astral minnow]

I can barely outburst our monks

[alpine wraith]

but NONONO

[mint swift]

I moreso meant doing more ST damage than assa in M+

[sour forum]

Sub needs to be deleteeed

[alpine wraith]

we dont outburst shit

[tropic nimbus]

Revert the tier set stack bug and we back

[hazy breach]

Theyre gonna buff plague damage and BP damage

[alpine wraith]

monks mm uhdk and more that i forget

[random hare]

It means alot, they do good st for high keys

[tribal blade]

i agree our burst doesn't warrant our downtime

[hazy breach]

So we end up playing deathstalker and BP on ST

[random hare]

Sin doesn’t

[alpine wraith]

if they buff builders and DS again

[mint swift]

Better yet rupture

Yeye that's the point

[alpine wraith]

i will do things

[wild vine]

devoker

[sour forum]

Monks are bursting the same or higher in ST lol, might be me thats shit

[mint swift]

I'm saying doing more st damage than an assa in m+ is what most specs probably have

was making a lil joker

[paper iron]

sub vs devoker

[tepid trellis]

Nah they do

[alpine wraith]

devoker is a bit special

[paper iron]

wait for gloomblade 60% dam buff inc

[alpine wraith]

because of how their mastery works

[astral minnow]

they will buff Goremaw's bite

[fringe palm]

maybe, but nothing that concerns st. burst pad in raid will make it look good enough to not be buffed. you think they want bp at 5+ again?

[alpine wraith]

the fact that goremaw in legion did triple the dmg it does now

is so funny

almost 900% ap

[twilit phoenix]

BP at 1+

[alpine wraith]

to the 300 we have now

[mint swift]

Give sub master assassin

[twilit phoenix]

remove evisc

[sour forum]

Yeee the fights rly help u on meters, u just pad the fuck out of everything lol

[alpine wraith]

make vanish reset tfd

so we can once again run without a trace

[twilit phoenix]

Would be based

[random hare]

100% crit master assassin or nty

[mint swift]

True

[vale pine]

my 2c, buffs are typically in the 2-3% range these days, so a 5% buff to assassiantion seemed like a outliner.
And it feels a bit like trying to force a meta if statistically, both assassiantion and subtlety performed about the same.
But it is what it is, its not the first time this sort of balancing happened and won't be the last time.

[glass jasper]

Make Sub Great Again

[alpine wraith]

just remember the change they did

nerfing tier and buffing baseline and all the shit that buffs builders

we are being targeted

RISE UP BIG CRITTERS

[paper iron]

i m just mad they destroyed the tier set based on transmitter data

[sour forum]

Preparing my assa gear

[vale pine]

haha i mean in the end

[alpine wraith]

dont worry assa also sucks

so we are not alone

[vale pine]

sub still performs good, its middle of the pack

[crystal bone]

currently enjoying sub a lot in raid at least

[tropic nimbus]

All specs feel kinda ass in general atm

[twilit phoenix]

Outlaw rework in .5 gonna go nutty

[alpine wraith]

true next pugs i do i will invite some augs to feel better

[crystal bone]

it was great for rik and its doing well for stix

[vale pine]

its just that rogue performance will ultimatively measured against other spec options

[fringe palm]

no its literally the worst spec this game has ever seen!!!

[alpine wraith]

maybe some arcane mages too

and what else

hmm

ah right frost dks

[vale pine]

haha

[paper iron]

in the bottom way of the mid of the pack. Last patch just did it dirty

[alpine wraith]

surely that way im not last

[hazy breach]

Well BP does almost the same damage as eviscerate does for deathstalker

So if they buff BP and we end up playing deathstalker

[sour forum]

I enjoy sub, ngl but outlaw is starting to tickle my fancy aswell, too bad i managed to yoink a house of cards would be sad to swap now

[vale pine]

i found it funny because the tier could have been a outlaw tier

[hazy breach]

We BP on ST unless darkest night

[alpine wraith]

outlaw is cool for the people that like that playstyke

[glass jasper]

Whenever someone talks class balance all I can think of is MM-hunter in CN, #1 spec 9.0, then mid-tier 9.5 patch came and it got nerfed to not even deserve a raidspot anymore

Blizzard works in mysterious ways

[sour forum]

I spam my buttons anyway, the gcd doesnt rly make a difference for me

[vale pine]

bfa

subtlety was good for 1 week, 2 maybe

[fringe palm]

time to play sin then. envenom and chill, dont care about dance timings or anything

[vale pine]

then was on the bench for the rest of the xpac

[sour forum]

Pad timing 😂

[tepid trellis]

Current assa in raid is so weird

[paper iron]

if KS was pressable in sprocket / Mugzee / Gally, i would ve seen outlaw realy good. But sadly u just have to hold / unspec it so the spec is down bad

[tepid trellis]

No thoughts just envenom

[paper iron]

yea assa is a bit empty

[vale pine]

KS rework when

[fringe palm]

energy feels kinda bad with vv but its fiiiine

[paper iron]

u dont even play arround ttk i think, u just wanna keep 1 envenom / low on energy

[alpine wraith]

lasted a bit more because i managed to get to g huun with the MFD dark shadow thing

that we also played on fetid

that was kinda cool ngl

[vale pine]

subtlety was so bad in bfa

[alpine wraith]

sad that is lost forever

[paper iron]

as i said since the beta, make blade rush a finisher, buff it by 5000% dam, and make it replace KS

KS in modern wow

[vale pine]

that even on fights later in the xpac

[alpine wraith]

only 20% behind assa

[paper iron]

is just bad

[vale pine]

you would not consider it

[tepid trellis]

Was more so speaking on all of its rules about env chains and slight pooling just being gone now

[alpine wraith]

i was literally alone in the parses

with grimzyo and mystler that logged private

and maybe more

[tepid trellis]

To now just being a press env spec

[alpine wraith]

pres envenom if you cant

just wait until you can

[fringe palm]

you can still pool and pretend it does something envenom in pandemic range

[sour forum]

Its the dankest night lingering shadow shiv still a thing?

[alpine wraith]

no

[sour forum]

For the 999999 crit on assa?

[vale pine]

you act like this wasn't the case before

[alpine wraith]

oh that yes

you use a shiv on lingering darkness

to get a DN envenom

[fringe palm]

it was and i pretended the whole patch

[sly shore]

[alpine wraith]

feral is so fun now too

with moonfire and shit

[fringe palm]

then i decided to dodge raid on rogue for 2 months and played classes that are fun

[alpine wraith]

last bastion of snapshottiung

[sour forum]

I geared a warr and question why i play rogue lol, esp in m+

[alpine wraith]

i like arms warr too

[sour forum]

Same, didnt play fury yet

[sly shore]

I been playing balance

and you just press buttons

and hero talents work

there's no cringe requirement

[alpine wraith]

yea you press incarnation(has 2 charges btw)

and do dmg

[sour forum]

What u dont enjoy the thrill of having exactly 16 secs to deal dmg and if u miss 1 button u do 30% less dmg?

Weaklings

[alpine wraith]

or dont crit

remember when a non crit evis does 2.7m dmg

[sour forum]

Or that 😂

[alpine wraith]

not critting might be

quite bad

but also

[fringe palm]

the best part is 2 tierset stacks on second sectec

[alpine wraith]

why the truck is my shadowstrike critting for 2m

[vale pine]

would be rly bad

if you needed to run out

to collect a orb

and the orb trolls you

[alpine wraith]

it can go below the ground in sprocket

[vale pine]

never happened to me, ofc

[alpine wraith]

and in floodgate also can go through terrain

and be untakable

[sour forum]

I complained so much in my guild about transmitter the loot council just wanted me to shut up

[vale pine]

it can go in the middle hole on gallywix

besides that

[sour forum]

And gave me a house of cards

[mighty citrus]

you know what feels bad: on rik when you get the blue circle to break the amps on like 1:40 😄

[vale pine]

idk why this is programmed like it is

but if you jump down the galywix hole,and shadowstep up

you die even if you are up

[alpine wraith]

cant confirm because i have not tried that boss on M but on hc every time i precloaked 1s cloak i did not get chosen

[vale pine]

it seems like the "death" event trigger is quite far up

[alpine wraith]

same as that boss on sanctum

of domination

invisible check walls

[mighty citrus]

i need to learn much 😄

[fringe palm]

even if you dont die the shadowstep might kill you

[sour forum]

Cloak is exclusively a dps cd wdym

Stay in gally beam to pad on adds

[vale pine]

oh ye about that

[mighty citrus]

these are the real gs. use cloak in order not to get picked my a mechanic

[hazy breach]

Dw the 4p shadow damage doesnt work on sectech clones most of the time anyway

[vale pine]

if gallywix moves

and you shadowstep it fucking ports you so weirdly

[paper iron]

hmmm gotta jump late and step fast, i often jump step to dodge the add spawns at the end of p1

works consistently

[sour forum]

Wait? Rly?

[paper iron]

guess u die if u re too slow / deep

[fringe palm]

thats a relief thanks

[alpine wraith]

my theory is he has like 3 diff hitboxes

between the super coils one the one with legs and the one without

[sour forum]

Here i was keeping my stacks if cds <10s

[vale pine]

i wish i could record gameplay

[alpine wraith]

and can fuck you over on each of those

[fringe palm]

the wierd part is, his hitbox for melee range is completly fine

[sour forum]

When it doesnt even work

[vale pine]

i experienced so many weird things this raid

encounter design is just so inconsistent

[fringe palm]

if you open 1cm too far away you start in the soup on the other side, very fun

[sour forum]

Stix is the most cursed boss i progged in my life

[hazy breach]

Well the 2p still works and theres other things that do damage besides sectech

But ye

iirc when we tested it on ptr the shadow damage amp was working roughly 1/3 of the time. Like just standing on a dummy hitting dance+cb+sectech every minute and roughly a third of the time it would do +16% dmg, whereas it wouldnt the other times

[wooden hare]

Are there any tricks with meld for sub? So far I've just seen using it to cast shadowstrike.

[alpine wraith]

yea it krangled in diff ways

[hazy breach]

My theory is that the clones also roll the 2p somehow to remove the buff, but who knows

[hazy breach]

Nop, just a shadowstrike, so practically useless

[wooden hare]

Dang, ty

[vale pine]

you can go into stealth with it in m+

so its not entirely useless

but for raiding what eleem pointed out

[crystal bone]

yep, id rather reprog ovinax again

[vale pine]

i mean maybe its just me

but i don't enjoy the progression in this raid

actually wonder if others feel the same

[fringe palm]

prog was very fun, bosses were cool and a pretty good difficulty curve. i like more bosses at 50-100 pulls than 1 300 pull boss

playing sub wasnt that fun but it is what it is, we had some moments (bandit adds)

[vale pine]

haha could be that too^^

[crystal bone]

i like the other fights, but i think the garbage balls is silly

[vale pine]

think its the one boss per tier with some hit or miss experiment

[crystal bone]

fun in heroic, but in mythic prog i think it should be something else

[marsh aspen]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[sly shore]

Why does feint and crimson vial still have an energy cost attached to it when it's not even skill expression to use it

[crystal bone]

speaking of stix prog, do u guys run cheat death or elusiveness?

i think its an elusive angle

[leaden prairie]

cause you would feint on cd otherwise you noob

crimson tho

sure

remvoe it

[sly shore]

feint on cd then

[leaden prairie]

Ye

[sly shore]

[leaden prairie]

Outlaw can have 100% uptime

[sly shore]

(he feinted nothing)

[leaden prairie]

You bozo

Think!

Think Kieron !

Think !

[sly shore]

No reason it should have an energy cost

[leaden prairie]

Yes the reason is outlaw would have 100% uptime

[autumn flame]

Feint on Assa with vt

[fringe palm]

no reason there should be energy as a resource

[sly shore]

remove the energy put it on the gcd

based

[leaden prairie]

No!

Wtf

That's horrible

[sly shore]

ur so actually true and real for this

[leaden prairie]

I love being able to press feint whenever I like

Yo kieron

[sly shore]

just let me press my fokin buttons

[leaden prairie]

Hot take?

I think

All the buttons that aren't dps button

Should be off GCD

Thoughts?

Even cc and shit

[fringe palm]

the masses dont like this take though

[leaden prairie]

Everything

[limpid sage]

I think all dps buttons should be off gcd as well

[sly shore]

my energy class

[limpid sage]

just one big macro using all the buttons at once

[leaden prairie]

Can't ever have a serious talk in here

Going back to outlaw channel

..

[fringe palm]

serious

outlaw

[alpine wraith]

i do think blind and others in pve should be off gcd

would be cool

being able to stun off gcd in pve

[sly shore]

balance separately!!

[limpid sage]

cheap shot off gcd would prob lead to some degen optimizations

[leaden prairie]

Remove cheap

Feels terrible to use anyway

Who cares

But also cheap has a damage components

So it make sense to keep it on GCD

[alpine wraith]

as sub it is kinda fine

[leaden prairie]

Since it generate cp

[fringe palm]

havnt pressed cheapshot in 2 expansions

[alpine wraith]

i press it quite a bit in m+

premed does not care about builder

[leaden prairie]

That's cause you are cooked ahach

[sly shore]

(silly)

[alpine wraith]

so you can cheapshot then kidney another mob

[leaden prairie]

Me pressing cheap?

AH

[autumn flame]

Y'all remember cheap shot in shadowlands?

[alpine wraith]

then go into cds

[leaden prairie]

I don't even know my cheap bind buddy

[alpine wraith]

cheap shot is quite op nowadays

6 sec stun

unreal

[limpid sage]

why would you press cheap on the caster when you can press backstab for 2 damage

[sly shore]

mines CTRL+E the never pressed bind

[fringe palm]

cheap shot bind had to go so i could bind private aura macro

[autumn flame]

Cheaspshot had no cd in dance iirc