subtlety

[alpine wraith]

as always not having dynamic routing on failsafe routes does this

[keen dome]

Damn, that's frustrating

[tribal blade]

yeah it was kinda crazy

[alpine wraith]

likely their telecomms engineers just cba'd or get paid only when they need changes

[tribal blade]

the entire city of hong kong wow players didn't know wtf was going on

[alpine wraith]

or just hire consulting when they want to change things and have not many inhouse

[tribal blade]

i got this response from the peer routing company twelve99

[alpine wraith]

btw this also happens a bit in EU with telia

[tribal blade]

damn 😦

[alpine wraith]

cable cuts/stealing is kinda more rampant in asia tho

[tribal blade]

i have to say, i had very good responseivness from this company and my ISP

[alpine wraith]

oh and in africa too

[tribal blade]

blizz.. absolutely nothing

[alpine wraith]

likely blizz deals with these things once in like 5 years

[tribal blade]

damn i didn't know that

[alpine wraith]

these companies deal with this every month

[tribal blade]

it just would have been nice to have some info from them so we knew what was going on exactly

[keen dome]

They might not know, but they should actively try to find out why a demographic can't connect. But, yeah.

[tribal blade]

just basically a "we are aware of a problem affecting players in Asia trying to connect to blizzard games overseas etc etc"

[tribal blade]

yeah exactly

i got given a LOT of shit on reddit making a post about it lol

basically a "it's not blizz's responsibility" kind of thing

[alpine wraith]

by the time this gets to their L3 or L4 of telecommunications or infra people

[keen dome]

It should be a "We're sorry for this. We are investigating" and then "This situation is outside our hands" etc

[alpine wraith]

it might take a long while

[keen dome]

Yeah truth

[tribal blade]

but i dunno, an entire city of players not being able to play seems like a big problem to me

[alpine wraith]

mostly anyone you can contact you first have to pray they escalate with the right info

otherwise it would just get bounced back

[tribal blade]

i'm not in the industry so i have very little idea how this stuff works though

[keen dome]

Considering they've sacked their entire frontline supprot team and now it's the big microsoft group..

So it goes from blizz tools -> outside blizz -> microsoft -> blizz lol

[tribal blade]

WELL good thing is if something similar happens again

i'm much better prepared to deal with it

[keen dome]

Nice

[tribal blade]

after spending all this time contacting people

[keen dome]

It's frustrating how internet infrastructure is so delicate.

[tribal blade]

it's a miracle it works as well as it does haha

[keen dome]

Internet access should be a basic human right at this point 'cos it's such an integral part of society.

[tribal blade]

i'm not sure if it's written into law, but it kind of is expected as a basic right in first world places now

i remember early internet days losing connection was kind of like a "tough shit" situation

now it's a much more serious problem

[keen dome]

Speaking from the UK: Nope. Haha

It's still seen as a non-critical utility which is REALLY frustrating.

[tribal blade]

oh damn

living in a big city it's different

[keen dome]

There was a big push to get it made free and accessible but the leader of Labour at the time got branded as a 'Broadband communist'

which is such a funny term

[tribal blade]

LOL broadband communism interesting

i forget is the labour party the equivalent of the democrats

[keen dome]

But it should be free and accessible and a basic part of our society that is available to all 'cos it's so integral to everything.

[keen dome]

Well right now, yes. Back then, waaaay better lmao. It's complex.

[tribal blade]

yeah british politics is wild

so different from the US

[keen dome]

I used to be a librarian and the amount of people who'd use, even abck in 2016 - 2017 library computers for job hunting / writnig cvs / etc.

It is such a critical thing, and not having access to it is a huge challenge if you are trying to find a soltuion in life.

Probably 5 - 10 people a day. Different people.

[tribal blade]

yeah it's very important

ok now i get why i was also having some issues accessing certain websites the past few days too

[keen dome]

Makes sense, yeah, if the couldn't route to it

[glass jasper]

What do the cheaper internet options cost in your country?

Cuz i wanna say, that atleast here in Sweden it is accessible to everyone, atleast in it's cheapest form. This would be about 6Euro a month or something like that.

[keen dome]

Decent broadband is pretty cheap but that's sorta missing the point, haha

When you don't have much money, why do you have to spend on something so critical to finding work / education?

Why is it a private enterprise when it's so critical to society?

[glass jasper]

So i feel that we are in the kind of situation that if you can afford a unit that uses internet, you can also affort internet

[fallow nimbus]

Because greed rules humanity

[glass jasper]

I mean, most jobs require driving license. You also have to spend money for that. The education itself requires you to buy books, bustickets or a bike to get there.

I mean, I get your point, but I don't feel that the internet cost is the biggest of all our problems

[keen dome]

Sure, it isn't. But it's such an integral part of society that it'd just reduce pressure on low income. Which is the point. I'd also say they shouldn't have to buy bus tickets 'cos transport should be free too haha. But this is going to get into far more political discussion than this discord exists for, I think.

[glass jasper]

Yea low income already has it shitty enough thats for sure.

And yea, lets not get too political.

Lets get back to hating on TFD 😄

[keen dome]

I like TFD. it's a cool talent idea. Just wish it was a bit faster coming up

[glass jasper]

Yea the concept is awesome it just needs to be consistant and faster as you say

Make sure the timer actually starts when it should, and maybe 4 sec timer instead of 6?

Would tbh be happy with it as long as the timer started when it should consistantly

[keen dome]

4s would be nice, yeah.

I really hope we see some kind of talent rework on a lot of our boring, or dull talents sooner than later.

Perforated Veins, Deeper Daggers or w/e it's called, Weapon Master, etc.

I continue to think Sub is in a really good spot. We're viable, we're fun to play. We just need some more love.

[vale pine]

i don't hate tfd, i just hate the 6 sec requirement

[keen dome]

4s would be a lot more consistent. it's a good suggestion

[vale pine]

just remove the requirement all together

if its too good make the bonus smaller

[violet shuttle]

Is it really worth it to play tfd? I feel like most of the time you won't get any benefit from it

[vale pine]

it is worth in most keys

[violet shuttle]

oh ok

[vale pine]

you don't need to get a lot of benefits for it to be worth

[violet shuttle]

do you acutally play around it?

[vale pine]

because competing talents are weak

you would rarely play around it

[violet shuttle]

i see alright

[vale pine]

motly just think of it as a passive "good if you get it" bonus

[keen dome]

It's the funny situation of "It's good because eveything else is worse!"

Which I think is really funny

[violet shuttle]

another thing: is it correct to sometimes just send symbols without shadow dance just for secret technique?

[hollow spear]

You can do that once in a boss fight

Man, there's nothing better than a boss fight ending right after your clones on 2nd sectec hit

[vale pine]

yes

but its rare

[violet shuttle]

Thanks! 🙂

[devout crown]

!log

[muted birch]

6 euro for 5gb its kinda ok

but you cant compare the price to other countries if you calculate it on that countries money

[muted birch]

rare? 🥲

[vale pine]

yes

means it does not happen a lot

you basically don't have infinite supply of shadow dance

[muted birch]

means i have to go back to training 🥲

sub is hard

[vale pine]

as it cdr's a lot slower

[muted birch]

like really

[vale pine]

so it can happen that your charge count of dance is too low

ofc. only between 90 sec cooldowns

[muted birch]

i kinda follow the rules, doing my burst windows every 90s

but my dps fall really low

there is ocassion to drop 1 dance + Symbols

but I dont know, got house of cards etc

mby I have way too much Mastery since im at around 18k

and only around 12k vers

[jaunty heath]

No such thing

[honest jewel]

Does sub surpass assa in m+? Decided to try sub first time yesterday since i feelt limited in assa.

[muted birch]

I might be doing something wrong, when we get OHB

ill show some logs

[jaunty heath]

If you follow the basic cadence ur doing fine, you’ll find out where you can find an extra dance through cdr over time

[muted birch]

sub actually brings me joy while playingh

like genuine joy

[jaunty heath]

Cooldowns - 2 Dances - Cooldownds - 1 Dance - Cooldown - 2 Dances - Cooldowns - Dance

Just repeat this

Over and over

[muted birch]

mhm

ok

[jaunty heath]

Obviously cooldowns means you dance twice

[muted birch]

somone wrote that if I have 1 charge of dance and around 35s to another when I get my cds back its fine

[jaunty heath]

Ye this happens automatically tho if you follow this pattern

[muted birch]

Need to get the macro for symbols

it never happened before

[jaunty heath]

Make sure you supercharge secret tech in every dance and that’s about it for starters

[muted birch]

but yesterday, well double symbols coz of fat fingers 🥲

[jaunty heath]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[muted birch]

thx

Is there any macro worth using that has Shadow dance as part of combination ? I have like 3 of those but they might be old

and i do have good memory, but short

#showtooltip Shadow Blades
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shadowstrike

found this one

[honest jewel]

I can give you a macro i made. But i started playing sub yesterday so not sure of valid haha

[jaunty heath]

No macros with SD recommended currently

[muted birch]

gotcha

[jaunty heath]

There is this one !bs

Wtf

[muted birch]

!bs

[wicked jolt]

Backstab/Shadow Dance Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow DanceThis will cast Shadow Dance on first key press and Backstab on second key press.

[honest jewel]

/cast shadow dance
/castsequence reset=5 Symbols of Death, null

So this is dumb?

[muted birch]

From what Fuu and others say

[jaunty heath]

But I would rather bind backstab than using it

[muted birch]

its better to not have Symbols tagged

about that one

[jaunty heath]

You do not bind symbols to dance no

In cooldownds you dance back to back while you don’t use sod there

[muted birch]

is it worth going for it ?

[jaunty heath]

You wait for secret tech to come back up

[jaunty heath]

Which one

[muted birch]

this one

in S1 i used to optimize around ST

[jaunty heath]

In my opinion it’s better to just bind backstab

[muted birch]

with 1st without CB and the 2nd with CB

and before that ofc the backstab

[jaunty heath]

But you can certainly use the macro

[muted birch]

but now dunno why I find it hard to adapt the backstab in SD

[jaunty heath]

How so?

[muted birch]

gonna try with the SD macro

[jaunty heath]

Just backstab as first gcd in dance

[muted birch]

Really I cant find answer 😅

[jaunty heath]

That’s it

[muted birch]

I used to do it np

now its like black magic

[jaunty heath]

Okay I see

Remember pressing the macro once only casts shadow dance

Need to press it twice for backstab

[muted birch]

ok

It will be temporrary

untill I work my brain around it, dunno why but after 1st raid in this season

it felt like I completly forgot how to sub

[honest jewel]

I'm just as confused. Just have to put time in i guess

[jaunty heath]

Just ask away

Subs barrier to entry is pretty high

[muted birch]

aye it is

but once you get the hang of it

[jaunty heath]

But after that barrier ur chilling

[muted birch]

its hella fun

guess ill just go again on alt

and learn it while chilling

[still quartz]

you dont necessarily need to bs in dance

[muted birch]

ye im weird, but It did the work xD

[winter python]

I do us that macro (including backstab) but I only use on first dance of CDs.

Then have another macro for only dance + backstab after that

[muted birch]

yes I know, but since s1

i felt like i did something wrong

the stupid feeling you're missing something important

mby its not same as it was in DF with macabre stacks

and I do feel like my crit is way too low

since im sitting at 19% (4335 c.rating)

and now I changed some stuff and I have 68% mastery which rounds around 13.800 rating and 16% vers with 12.488

[jaunty heath]

You are doing it for macabre stacks

Rn

[muted birch]

yes yes

I Know

[jaunty heath]

This is true, but if ur learning the spec atm probably better to just get used to it from the start

[muted birch]

Shadowstrike -> Flag -> Rup -> Dance -> BS and ST

[jaunty heath]

Rather than build muscle memory and destroy it after

[muted birch]

yup

Dunno why tho I cant do it

since I was doing it in S1

I just added 1 button

which was ST without cold blood

to the bar

Can I ditch Circe if I have those 2

[muted birch]

MY GOODNES

it worked

it works perfectly Thanks !

[old kayak]

!log

[sly shore]

no

not even close

both rings need to be like 670+ easily

[iron obsidian]

i would say prob either one at myth track would

[sly shore]

one 670 ring

basically a 670 ring gives the same stats as circes does

[muted birch]

ok

so it has to be myth track

atleast

2 macros basicly erased my problem

[vale pine]

the thing with circlet is

it has more stats but spread between multiple

you can target stats better with a regular ring

[alpine wraith]

and a funny thing

if you have mastery proics

circe is just best anyway

[vale pine]

~665-670 is where a regular ring with good stats becomes good

[alpine wraith]

because of fathomdweller

so blessed grip and mechanocore/drink are funny things that make it bis

[vale pine]

drink is probably best

if you are below the hp value

[alpine wraith]

when grip or drink/core proc

you get like 400 extra stats from circe

between stormbringer and windsinger

[fringe palm]

What does fathomdweller do again?

[alpine wraith]

increase stats of the other citrines depending on mastery

one thing that does not work is house of cards with it tho

but other things do work

[keen dome]

As hacha said, ye.

[keen dome]

lol, that's funny

[final holly]

I imagine if HoC interacted with it it would be actually bis

[keen dome]

we'd never be free

[alpine wraith]

why do you want to be free big mastery

big D

[muted birch]

Priory works with it ?

[alpine wraith]

no idea havent tried

likely can ask any assa people but it is unlikely

[ebon oyster]

you are wondering if you press trinket your gem changes to diff stat?

[alpine wraith]

no it will just give more stats

but i think on uses are barred from it

[ebon oyster]

i think it sets value when you change zone

whenever you get a loading screen it sets its value

thought you were wondering whether you can change stat because you can snapshot it i remember doing that last season

but this part that you're talking about ive never tested

[misty grove]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lean arch]

!prekey

[short radish]

Press Symbols of Death before the key goes in.

[lean arch]

lol ty

[short radish]

np

[lean arch]

idk Im trying sub for the first time this season

[short radish]

its for supercharger

[alpine wraith]

nah it is just me saying that it actually increases stats based on fathom dweller from procs

so if you have some of them circe's value is more than the flat stats

[cursive vapor]

ggs

[cunning notch]

F1 for stealth !?

[cursive vapor]

I know..can't help myself

[cunning notch]

holy longfinger gamer

but gz!!

[alpine wraith]

big eyer

[radiant shale]

Is using symbols with S1 2p prepull a thing ?

[short radish]

my fellow function key gamer

gz

[marble thistle]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[runic mountain]

Do you wait for some stacks for shadow technique in opener, or just send it?

As sin rogue, I'm used to waiting for stuff before sending cds :/

[tribal blade]

don't wait just send

[runic mountain]

kk thx

[tribal blade]

you do not need to stop pressing buttons to fill every gcd during the opener and cds

[runic mountain]

hmm?

i been practicing at a dummy for a bit, trying to get the opener down

but sometimes i find i dont have double finishers

[tribal blade]

get the cd sequence down and that's a big part of sub rogue learnt 😉

[runic mountain]

ya, seems fun

[narrow shadow]

Mythic?

[runic mountain]

well, the cd part at dummies :p ..will see the mini cd and whatnot in between soon enuff

[tribal blade]

single dances between cds are very similar to cd dances

the main 2nd part of learning sub would be learning how much you can send before your next cd set to make sure you have enough dance+symbols+sectec for it

[runic mountain]

Right, single dance is just dance+symbols then ST?

[tribal blade]

yeah dance>symbols>backstab>sectec

[runic mountain]

oh yes, backstab first for that magore thing

thx

[tribal blade]

if you have coup up you can dance>symbols>backstab>coup>strike>sectec

[runic mountain]

ty - once i get the cd sequence down, i'll try to figure out when is the latest i need to stop pressing stuff. and then try my hand in lfr and normal

[tribal blade]

general rule you can follow is to just full stop sending anything ~30 secs before your next cd set

it's better to err on the side of caution with that

[runic mountain]

oh yes, i heard shindig say that, coup is stronger than sectec i guess and u want that with symbols?

[tribal blade]

when you get more comfortable you can start sending more

[runic mountain]

ty, thats a good guideline

[tribal blade]

sectec is stronger than coup

[runic mountain]

oh, then its to clear the coup

[tribal blade]

it's more so that during your solo dances you don't need the cdr on coup like you need it during cds

[runic mountain]

i misunderstood him

[tribal blade]

so you can coup first

which gives you more flawless stacks (15% more finisher dmg)

[runic mountain]

can i completely ignore trickster stuff first?

[tribal blade]

most of how trickster works in ST is pretty basic, it kinda plays itself

[runic mountain]

ok cool

[tribal blade]

as a general rule you can just send coup as soon as you proc it

[runic mountain]

yep, great

[tribal blade]

just make sure your target is fazed

it's a very small min max to hold coup for upcoming cds

but it's not worth doing if you're learning sub

[runic mountain]

got it

ya, feels quite complicated compared to sin - especially with the new sin changes

had to find keybinds and whatnot and try understand all these cds, hah

[tribal blade]

haha yeah it's not very simple and no hand holding

cds coming off cd at different rates

and trying to line up so many different things

not being able to send anything on cd

[runic mountain]

yep

there's no real prio here also, right? ...like i can switch between targets?

[tribal blade]

yeah you can pretty much freely swap targets

obviously your fazed target will net you more dps

but it's not the end of the world to swap like it is for DS sin

[runic mountain]

how do u get fazed again, i closed my wow for now, lol

right, that's the main reason im trying to learn - for the target swappin

[tribal blade]

it's from proccing unseen blade

which procs off backstab and shadowstrike

[runic mountain]

ah right

[tribal blade]

you also apply fazed with secret technique

[runic mountain]

i see

okay thx a lot! you been very helpful. off for now, and back to dummy later tonight :p

[tribal blade]

awesome, good luck and have fun!

[cursive vapor]

Hero

[vagrant thorn]

chatting with Grok about sub rogues and it writes

Zeross 😄

[paper iron]

ROGUE META SUB ROGUE NEW BUG INSANE DAMAGE WHAT THE HELL OMG

⏰

[narrow shadow]

3.3 is high?

[slate lantern]

Oh no don't feed him

[vagrant thorn]

😛

[crystal bone]

3.3 is high currently

its low near the end

[alpine wraith]

big zeross

[crystal bone]

i just need a 12 cinder and flood

then we onto 13's

so far im liking sub everwhere except cinder lol

i assume we hold dance(s) for every add spawn on i'pa?

or are adds a ranged dps problem, mostly

[tribal blade]

i kind of just rupture the adds then run back to boss

usually the ranged are better equipped to deal with them mostly

[alpine wraith]

you can change to cripping

[crystal bone]

ahh good idea

[alpine wraith]

if the are no slows

[tribal blade]

cinderbrew has been a massive struggle as sub in the aoe department

[crystal bone]

i feel like its probably a wipe if he doesnt die after 2 min lol

[tribal blade]

but i've been doing a lot of dam since reset so i'm curious to see if it'll be better

[crystal bone]

yeah i had a dev evoker gapping me pretty hard last night

[alpine wraith]

sub depends a lot on comp

[crystal bone]

but i was near double him on bosses

[alpine wraith]

we gain quite a bit from lots of diff buffs

and if classes have asynchronous cds to us the better

[crystal bone]

yeah it was a non shaman group

[alpine wraith]

2 min specs are best because we always use cds first

[crystal bone]

it was fire mage dev me

[alpine wraith]

then they get theirs back

[tribal blade]

yeah playing without a shammy is truly tragic

[alpine wraith]

yea that is pain

[tribal blade]

i try to prio signing up for groups that don't have a shammy

but the people i'm gonna be pushing with, we're taking it easy until the .5 patch

then we plan to seriously push

[crystal bone]

what is our "god comp" if u had to wager a guess

sub ele boomie?

[tribal blade]

it honestly doesn't really matter until the .5 patch

[alpine wraith]

something like tank warr resto druid ww ele

[tribal blade]

nah not sub

[alpine wraith]

or boomie mw

[crystal bone]

no i mean the comp we want

[alpine wraith]

idk

[crystal bone]

as sub

[tribal blade]

oh right

[alpine wraith]

no idea tbh

[swift tinsel]

Been seeing a fair bit of boomie, fire mage, uhdk

[tribal blade]

yeah you want any flavor of shammy

the rest is w/e you want

[crystal bone]

i like druid also for vers

boomie handles the aoe better, as well

[jaunty umbra]

i see uhdk alts in almost every single key now

[swift tinsel]

Boomie enh mw vdh has felt pretty great

As sub

[crystal bone]

yeah mw for phys buff too

[tribal blade]

the ideal raid buff comp you would want is something like veng dh, boomy, sham dps, sub, MW

[crystal bone]

mw, boomie, sub, enh/ele, any tank, i guess warr

AP buff

or dh

for magic buff

[alpine wraith]

warr and dh are kinda sameish

[tribal blade]

but i think healer priest is better tbh

[alpine wraith]

but dh i think people like more

[tribal blade]

priests just bring so much to groups

[swift tinsel]

Yeah can swap mw for disc and it’s cozy

[tribal blade]

5% fort buff AND better shroud AND mass dispel

AND pi

[crystal bone]

tfw priest pi's me by default and i have to say don't pi me

9 times out of 10 they pi me out of dance

[tribal blade]

yeah you shouldn't be getting PI no matter what lol

[crystal bone]

and yea that

[swift tinsel]

I’ve actually had a good time with hpal too if you swap the boomie for spriest

[tribal blade]

the only situation would be if the other 2 dps don't have cds and you are in full cds

then it's actually sort of worth PIing sub

but i have a feeling you might get more out of PIing the tank

[strange pond]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[crystal bone]

probably lmao

i think vdh loves haste

[tribal blade]

yeah it was a very common thing during S2 when i was title pushing

when you had sub+spriest+aug

and then the spriest is like "who tf do i PI"

i'd be like "unironically PI the tank"

[paper iron]

i didnt would be like

i was litteraly like that

pi the gdrood it s better

[tribal blade]

yeah esp if they were in incarn

it was actually pretty good

[paper iron]

i was having some PI's in pure single target

cuz it was a bit better than gdrood

but it was whatever

[tribal blade]

yeah kinda w/e at that point

[paper iron]

s2 pushing i swear was so bad

[tribal blade]

haha yeah it was super rough

that is my proudest title

[paper iron]

like i knew i couldnt get 31 freehold with me in the group, it was not possible, 32 even more so

but i got a 30

[tribal blade]

nice!

[paper iron]

it was so hard

[tribal blade]

yeah i barely made title

like just barely

[paper iron]

like it was the only season i knew, even if i was the greatest rogue alive (which is not the case), i couldnt do key level exodia was doing

[tribal blade]

literally sitting in lfg for 2-3 hours at a time with no invites

[paper iron]

just because i did no damage, no mass barrier OR no stam buff

fun fact graham

i had the decline count addon

[tribal blade]

freehold also required you to do the crazy staircase pulls

[paper iron]

the whole .5 patch

[tribal blade]

only ranged could do

lol how many declines

[alpine wraith]

going for 4 digits decline?

[paper iron]

i had like 12k request for about 80 invites

[alpine wraith]

damn even got to 5 digit

[paper iron]

i have a screenshot somewhere of that in my old ssd

[tribal blade]

LOL

yeah sounds about right

my guildies vividly remember that time

[paper iron]

gladly i had my evoker friend who get me into the premade sometimes when the mage or the priest was away

they loved me

[tribal blade]

because i would sit in my guild disc just fuming for hours

[paper iron]

cuz i was here doing cheap shot spam

[alpine wraith]

it is even more op now

6 secs stun

[paper iron]

oh i almost got kicked from my guild

cuz i was pissing them

talking about it

[tribal blade]

yeah that season made me really tighten up my rotation

because i knew if i wanted to make it i had to be undeniable

and do a metric fuckton of dam

so people would actually be willing to take a rogue

some keys i would out dps the mage

mages like 100 points higher in IO than me

made me mad

[paper iron]

yea obviously u could outdps the mage

but he was missing pi

and anyway

[hazy breach]

Warrior and shaman are the most important. Then its like monk > druid > dh

[paper iron]

it was the sp pumping, the mage was just a int buff + mass barrier + fucktons of cc + lust

[tribal blade]

hell yeah

oh you think monk is better than druid? interesting

i would think the vers buff is better

[tribal blade]

sub was actually also a very high output spec that season

[hazy breach]

Vers is like +2.5% and monk is like +3%, but ye its similar

Dh is worse though

[tribal blade]

ahhh ok gotcha

[alpine wraith]

monk does more dmg too

[paper iron]

it was a great spec as in damage, but not better than sp mage aug combo, by like 5% i would say and didnt bring anything so

[alpine wraith]

although druid has some cool things it can do

[paper iron]

😔

sad times

hmonk protwar boomie elecham subrogue

dream comp

aint gonna lie

[tribal blade]

i'm gonna be pushing with my ele/enhance from my guild

and our tank is swapping to vdh

we're gonna be helping him gear this weekend

[paper iron]

vdh is so good

when they gonna start to nerf it for m+

[tribal blade]

i expect to watch him flop over quite a few times lol

[paper iron]

it s gonna be like rogue

never meta for 10 expansions again

[tribal blade]

i wonder if we'll see any sub buffs in the next tuning pass

what do you think @hazy breach

[hazy breach]

Possible

But i wouldnt bet on it

[tribal blade]

i wouldn't be surprised if we saw none tbh

[crystal bone]

judging by the last tuning pass we are kind of in the spot they want everyone at

or maybe just slightly below it

[tribal blade]

unfortunately it's the mid spot

that's the rough spot to be in

[alpine wraith]

dont ask for buffs this is not the first rondo

[hazy breach]

Idk how we look in keys on average

[alpine wraith]

they will buff deathstalker again

we are mid but not horrible

[tribal blade]

i've been blasting in the keys i've done this reset

[crystal bone]

deathstalker

[tribal blade]

not like insane damage

[autumn flame]

https://tenor.com/view/noo-god-no-the-office-gif-18780248

[tribal blade]

but decent

[alpine wraith]

maybe they will change tfd to actually activate every x finishers

[crystal bone]

i honestly might just send assa in cinder, sub in the other 7 dungeons lol

[tribal blade]

interesting

[hazy breach]

The worst timeline would be BP buffs

[alpine wraith]

and more builder buffs

need 100% crit dmg

[hazy breach]

Because then deathstalker starts using it on St

[alpine wraith]

only 70% is not enough

AHAHA

[tribal blade]

i don't know how they tune sub tbh

[crystal bone]

bp in single target would be terrifying

[alpine wraith]

true bp for a DM stack on deathstalker

[tribal blade]

i think just an aura buff would be best probably

[hazy breach]

No not for dm

[alpine wraith]

and you even activate the hero talent using witness

because it also gives crit and crit dmg

UNREAL

[hazy breach]

Just over eviscerate when you dont have DN

[tribal blade]

that would be the most cursed gameplay

[keen dome]

that'd be really interesting

[alpine wraith]

every day i dream with different ideas to solve the slop we have for our middle row of talents

like making WM work with everything

or PV/lingering with finishers

goremaw cleaving actually with nimble and buffing finishers instead of giving energy

[wild vine]

Every second dance

Finality: dance edition

[alpine wraith]

or make subterfuge usable as sub

just a +1 sec to dance per point

would be enough

like it used to be

[wild vine]

Based

[cunning notch]

Do u guys use Symbols after consuming both Shadow Dances for energy or do u hold till SD is back ?

[alpine wraith]

or just make first dance after exiting combat OR using vanish

so we can have one on pull then at 1:30 and at 3 it is back

[keen dome]

Yeah, having it work as it is but also triggered on vanish would be neat, too

[alpine wraith]

then at 4:30 we would use second charge then at 6 it is back

but blizz hates sub so maybe

they buff backstab

blizz pov

[keen dome]

400% buff to backstab

[alpine wraith]

actually make goremaw cleave and have the ap scaling of legion 800% lets gooo

[hazy breach]

It very deliberately does not

[alpine wraith]

[hazy breach]

They wanted to lower the power of vanish as a dps cd

[keen dome]

I think it would be neat, which is all I was saying.

[tribal blade]

do something about backstab for the love of god

[alpine wraith]

then forgot subterfuge exists and ass and outlaw got things

tied to it

[tribal blade]

everyone hates backstab

[alpine wraith]

but sub got told

UNLUCKY

i would not mind if PV worked every x stabs you get an empowered finisher

[keen dome]

"We've replaced Backstab with Gloomblade as a baseline" and no other changes.

[alpine wraith]

but it has to buff builders¿¿??

[keen dome]

Then they would've technically done something with backstab

[alpine wraith]

or lingering being after dance your finishers do x extra shadow dmg

[tribal blade]

true!

[alpine wraith]

but it is builders??¿¿¿¿

[hazy breach]

Pv is almost shadow focus levels of damage

[tribal blade]

yeah PV is horrendous

[alpine wraith]

or wm only working on st builders

[tribal blade]

horrible

[keen dome]

I think there is only one talent I dislike more than PV.

[hazy breach]

Last i checked it was worth 0.2% in sims

[alpine wraith]

yea but imagine if it was every x stabs you buff a finisher

[tribal blade]

i can't believe they actually reworked PV and it was just as useless

[alpine wraith]

suddenly it is decent

they made rotten worse too

[keen dome]

Wouldn't it end up with us playing around it to try and buff SecTec, hypothetically? I suppose it'd depend on how much it was buffed, though.

[tribal blade]

yeah they need to fully lean into finishers for sub huh

[alpine wraith]

yea or rupture

or both

[keen dome]

Yeah, true.

[alpine wraith]

i mean we are the spec that has ZERO points that ONLY affect evis

or bp

[copper vapor]

hello, does blind not work on the cast of bomb tonk 1st pack of Mechagon?

[alpine wraith]

literally ZERO

[keen dome]

More buffing finishers yes please

[alpine wraith]

can only blind things that have eyes

[copper vapor]

that does make sense

ty

[alpine wraith]

mechanical mobs are not blindable

[tribal blade]

last time i tried they were all immune

[rustic pond]

every x back stab you get 2/3 sec of shadow dance

[keen dome]

Except for when they are

The big adds on Mythic Vexie are Mechanical, iirc, and they can be blinded

[alpine wraith]

why because who needs consistency on this game

diff expansion diff rules

we also had some bosses that were considered normal mobs

and you could do funny things to them

[keen dome]

Yeah, haha

[paper iron]

that s a fire mage talent, we cant have that as rogue sorry

X hot streaks they get 5s combust or something

i dont even know i havent read any talents on my mage but i m always under combust / hypotermia

it s pretty insane

10 flamestrikes in a row

fun fun

can do same with pyrro

[alpine wraith]

we had that problem for a bit with dance

in legion and sl

where you had so much uptime it became kinda a wash

and in bfa if you didnt have dark shadow

[paper iron]

yea i mean in SL we had no highs no lows

it was just

outlaw profile

[swift tinsel]

I'm more on team Fixed Dance CD w/ 2 charges

[paper iron]

but in SL outlaw had some highs and some lows

[jaunty heath]

Fmage has been perma combust for a while now

[glass jasper]

Struggling on rogue to break 3m overall most dungeons... pulling this as MM-hunter in 640 gear

[swift tinsel]

perma combust with infinite mobility

[glass jasper]

Life is unfair

[paper iron]

but now it s without skb

imagine if they were using skb

pretty sure u could reach some insane 80% bust or so

[jaunty heath]

Well they don’t use skb because they get enough cdr

[swift tinsel]

IB, PF, scorch, crazy combust uptime

[paper iron]

their tier set also

[jaunty heath]

What would you need skb for

Also

[paper iron]

can we talk about mage tier set?

[jaunty heath]

Skb is kill

Can we talk about a lot of tier sets

[swift tinsel]

#MakeRuptureNightbladeAgain

[paper iron]

they have 15% more damage on combust?

[rustic pond]

well, what i had in mind was more some things to spice up the down time than having it up all the time, like sindragosa mechanics or divine hammer. More like you have some procs during your down time where you can have mini burst. If i had to buff sub that's what i would like to see rather than just numbers going up

[paper iron]

100% of the time

not even a coinflip

losing stacks or idk bullshit

they just have 15% more dam

we should have 16 stacks of tset everytime we press blades

to balance it

[tribal blade]

sub is not really a proc based spec in general

i think that's what a lot of people like about the spec

[swift tinsel]

Yeah I'm cool with ShT/refunds being the major rng/proc to play with

[paper iron]

every specs have some rng today, and it s fine for most, i think blizzard is kinda doing cool tuning for rng stuff

then u have uhdk in key

they proc their blood thing thing, they delete the dungeon

[alpine wraith]

seems they need big ramp

so that is why they are so good on higher keys

[swift tinsel]

I think they mean the blood beast that procs randomly

that can do absurd damage

[alpine wraith]

yea from san layin

but if it procs when you have big festermight

[paper iron]

they re kinda a dot spec, so like every dot spec they do better the more pack lives

[alpine wraith]

it will do a lot more

[hazy breach]

Good pull - 40M
Bad pull - 20M

[paper iron]

if i m not mistaken

[hazy breach]

Unholy pov

[swift tinsel]

even further beyond

[paper iron]

i know so little about dk dps to be honest

[alpine wraith]

how does the blood beast even work

yea

[swift tinsel]

it stores shadow damage

[hazy breach]

Like wod ring

[swift tinsel]

then explodes

[alpine wraith]

ah it just gets dmg then goes bomba

[swift tinsel]

and if it happens during your ramp with big might stacks/trinkets/etc

[paper iron]

and i m kinda worried about dk spot

cuz it s gonna get buff for raid for sure, it s trash in raid

[swift tinsel]

you do infinite damage

[paper iron]

but if it also means buff in m+

eta gg

frost or unholy, both

[alpine wraith]

well dk and rogue are kinda in this weird spot for raid

[paper iron]

i think rogue lost a lot of value in raid for later bosses

with the last patch

it s still good, but idk, why not bringing another devoker right now?

[alpine wraith]

well rogue lost a lot of value when dmg is not huge from bosses

like mug zee wuld be good for rogue

if people knew atro stacks

but also other specs do a lot of dmg

and the "execute" part of rogue is nonexistant in 2 specs

[paper iron]

sprocket 1day

pure single target

[swift tinsel]

Edge of Niiiiiiiiight

[alpine wraith]

and in the other it gets rinsed by real execute specs

like doing 400k+ less dps than warr

when getting 2 deathmarks on execute+bl

vs execute execute mortal strike

[paper iron]

yea when they announced hero talent, i was really hopping for some eon of night

but guess we got deathstalker shit

[swift tinsel]

I want it in our spec tree

[alpine wraith]

FATAL INTENT

KEEEEEEKW

[swift tinsel]

lmaooooo

[alpine wraith]

imagine if that shit was good

[paper iron]

which feels ok to play as assa, but as sub i dont wanna touch this tree ever

[swift tinsel]

Slightly Ticklish Intent

[crystal bone]

holy balls batman

hunter stonks

[alpine wraith]

big MM energy

maybe 1 guy just carrying

[swift tinsel]

ngl pack leader survival slaps

big fun

[paper iron]

yea i wouldnt trust hunters on this graphic

cuz

it s low sample

[alpine wraith]

yea it is 1 guy

AHAHAHA

get rolled EZ hunters

[paper iron]

well it s low sample anyway cuz it s 1day

[jaunty umbra]

mm can get insane rng iirc

[paper iron]

if i move it to 1 week

tell me

[alpine wraith]

yea dark ranger can go brrrrrrrr

[paper iron]

assa needed ST buff

[alpine wraith]

that guy just went brrrrrr

[paper iron]

like sure it needed a ST buff, but so does sub then

[alpine wraith]

arrow was very black indeed

[paper iron]

i ve so many questions about last patch

[alpine wraith]

btw sub burst spec vs mm

guess who did 500k more dps?

mfer was doing our PEAK burst for 40 secs straight

[paper iron]

check our burst

[alpine wraith]

?¿¿

[paper iron]

vs devoker

under lust

gg

[alpine wraith]

they are lower

this is rank 1

[paper iron]

they peak lower i guess

but they maintain it for so long

[runic mountain]

Is this correct?

[warm marlin]

the windwalker vs sub sim dmg chart is the most depressing to me

they burst the same damage as sub but don't do tank dps for 40s between cds

[alpine wraith]

why do you have signet as sub

that trinket underperforms quite a bit

[runic mountain]

dont have another on use 😦

[alpine wraith]

get a pvp badge or hoc if possible

[runic mountain]

once i get the cds down, i think i'll go for that pvp one

ya will run lfr and normal later for hoc chance

[alpine wraith]

ye you will notice the diff

[slate marlin]

after u press symbols u arent empowering secret technique, st should be one of the empowered spells

[acoustic lodge]

What's the best way to get the pvp trinket?

[runic mountain]

ah yea, one of the first 2, right?

[frosty thunder]

Get a boost

[alpine wraith]

on your second dance you use symbols too early

you want to use symbols as you sec tech or on the finisher before

[runic mountain]

i kinda lose focus in the 2nd half o fthe cd, when i need to press dance and symbols separately

[hazy breach]

Either farm crates or do the pvp weeklies found in dornogal

[alpine wraith]

yea takes a bit to get used to

[slate marlin]

Idealy after u press blades its the 1st spell u use, out of the very first dance in blades it can be 1stblr 2nd

[runic mountain]

ah ok, so hold symbols until sectec is off cd?

[acoustic lodge]

Thank you !

[slate marlin]

You can also queu in wintergrasp or ashran flr a quest that gives you 250 conquest if you win

i think ahsran was the fastest flr me, just run to boss and kill it was like 2 minutes to complete

[acoustic lodge]

Bet, that's what I'll do!

[hazy breach]

Shouldnt take too long

But its nice because its fully deterministic, once you get the points you get the trinket, no rng or chances

[slate marlin]

Why cant blizzard make more than 1 90 second trinket

Its either hoc or pvp

[hazy breach]

Tbf there is another one, the delve one

It just gives haste

[acoustic lodge]

I'm beyond over doing delve's lol

[slate marlin]

Same

[runic mountain]

Better?

[paper iron]

haste on a 90s

[paper iron]

looks good to me, u could have used backstab as a first builder in your second dance

[runic mountain]

ah

[hazy breach]

Im only seeing 6 spells in the first dance

There should be 8

[paper iron]

oh yea i didnt count

[runic mountain]

Yea, i han't got the speed yet, im still slow on pressing globals

just trying to remember the order, lol

but thx, i didnt actually know there should be 8

[hazy breach]

Dance is 8 seconds long

[runic mountain]

thx, forgot the 2nd dance would also need backstab for macabre

this is complicated, coming from sin, hah

[paper iron]

you ll get it, it looks like you have the basics at least

i ve seen way way worse in here

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/316923898501529600/1354801343390548100/image.png?ex=67e7ee13&is=67e69c93&hm=8febc5cd6c08d5dbb436d6fa1396a9c8708cfcd6b039d2c0120b4dcfdb4fa9aa&

like this yersteday

i m still laughing at it

[alpine wraith]

a classic

[runic mountain]

havnt tried in a raid yet tho, thats where it'll get messy, haha - still dummying

[hazy breach]

If you just do the opener correctly, and then do the opener correctly again every 90s

Youre like 85% there

[runic mountain]

kk thx - will try in lfr shortly 😅

hopefully rewarded with a hoc for my efforts

[small juniper]

dont get ur hopes up

[tribal blade]

just remember you won't be able to do the rotation in actual content until you can do it on the dummies without having to think too hard

so just burn in that muscle memory

[runic mountain]

True, thx. Good thing at least is that im familiar with the raid bosses, so at least dont need to worry about learning mechanics - just about focusing on my rotation

[haughty mural]

can you take this serious ?

[crystal bone]

probably not

barely anyone has killed mythic sprocket

heroic probably a better sample size

[trail ginkgo]

What is the addon you use?

[runic mountain]

its the action tracker from details

enable it in options -> Plugins

[trail ginkgo]

Thanks

[alpine wraith]

i still find funny how MM hunter just appears and gaps everyone by highrolling his intestines out

[white hazel]

when exactly should i hold coup de grace and do bp as finisher instead?

[alpine wraith]

when cds are around 20 secs or less away

it is around a 0.3% win overall or so

[white hazel]

ok thanks!

[alpine wraith]

also for the dances in between you can use coup first if you have fw and fazed

but otherwise you sec tech first

[onyx parcel]

Wait, am I behind the times? I thought we did an evis before the first ST for the macabre stack.

[white hazel]

ive been following the 20s rule for the most part but wanted to make sure

[alpine wraith]

no we dont do that you want sec tech on cd as soon as possible

[onyx parcel]

I've been doing strike flag evis dance BS rupture strike ST

[crystal bone]

and when u do hold it for cd window, do u still send sectech first in dance?

then coup?

[alpine wraith]

yea otherwise you dont get 2 in blades

[onyx parcel]

Ah shit I need to fix that then

[crystal bone]

thats what i figured

[hard marsh]

is the remnant of darkness trinket complete waste? looks to be either that one in myth track or socket from my vault

[alpine wraith]

it is decent

but has high variance

best you can do is sim it

basically if it procs alright you can get like 13k+ agi on your second set of cds

but if it stacks to much and procs before

you get almost nothing

[hard marsh]

shame it has no stats

[alpine wraith]

yea that is same as azerokk it is very feast or famine

procs before cds

= bye dps

[runic mountain]

shadow dance doesnt have a pandemic or something, right? So should just press it when it falls off in opener for 2nd one, right?

[hazy breach]

You cant press dance while dance is up

[runic mountain]

oh 😮

hah, didnt realise that

[twilit phoenix]

Rupture in dance

Don’t do that king

[paper iron]

rupture in dance, such a early df thing

[twilit phoenix]

[onyx parcel]

I just started rogue for the first time really this patch... I guarantee it isn't the only thing I'm doing wrong 😂

[glass jasper]

Does anyone have a WA that shows me where i left my cursor? Mine broke and i am loosing my cursor every 20 sec

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[cunning notch]

Shadow Strike flag rupture blades into ... why is the dk doing so much dmg ...???

[alpine wraith]

superior race

[oak grotto]

Is it ever worth sending SnD by itself if we do a big pull at the start, so I wont use Eviscerate?

[limber relic]

Dont think you're auto attack dmg is gonna be worth if its that big of a pull

[alpine wraith]

you will use coup eventually anyway

[warm marlin]

you can throw an evis on a random mob while grouping (just like ruptures)

[dry belfry]

little question, in m+ sometime when i vanish and directly after shadowstrike my first dance is loading. Is it a way to force this to happen always or is just a bug?

[hazy breach]

Not that we know of no

Where did it happens specifically?

[limpid sage]

Was it figured out if sectec “hitscans” when you press it or if the delayed hits are based on the position of you?

[hazy breach]

Theres a couple of mobs where it can happen decently often, like the void guys in rookery

[hazy breach]

Its around the target

[alpine wraith]

it has been figured out for a while normal movement does not affect it a lot

but blinks can make mobs not take the copies dmg

if they dip

the are is not huge tho

so things like knockbacks can also krangle it

[hazy breach]

Idk dont think so

You can cast it on the dog in workshop when he is jumping

And it will still hit

[limpid sage]

Do you know if it’s at the moment of pressing it or when the second part goes through?

[hazy breach]

When the second part goes through

[limpid sage]

Aight ty just had to be sure

If your target dies in the midst of it, does it still go through for the rest?

Sorry for barrage of questions

[hazy breach]

Fairly sure no

[alpine wraith]

that is not a blink or knock it is very weird yea because some mobs hitboxes are bigger or stay in place

[solemn lance]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[spark plover]

hey i have a quick question, does this talent work only after a blind, or it is for every ennemy "weak" ?

might be Fog or smoke in english

[hazy breach]

its fazed

The debuff from unseen blade, the proc on backstab

[chrome lake]

hi guys i see the priory signet is low tier but it sims better than other dungeon trinkets for me is that usual?

[spark plover]

thx

[hazy breach]

Ye because the on-use trinkets from dungeons suck ass

Get the pvp badge trinket

[chrome lake]

saw bloodmallet had it pretty high ig im going pvp

[hazy breach]

You can join a crate farm group or do the pvp weeklies

Shouldnt take long

[spark plover]

Eleem i have another question, recently got some dagger and can afford to have some with enchant Authority of the depth and Authority of Radiant power ;
is it ok to run with only one depth , or it is always by pair ?

[alpine wraith]

one is better for st the other aoe

1 and 1 is a midway

[spark plover]

ok, there is no question about geting 2 is cool because they refresh each

ok cool , thx hachadino

[alpine wraith]

they dont refresh really they stack

so depths would proc the same just do double dmg

same with radiance

would do double dmg and give double the stats but proc the same

also anyone on mug zee is the gaol break thing important so now you dont need to always send people that can break off?

or you just keep sending monks/locks anyway

[spark plover]

sadly im only on stix so dont know

[mint swift]

How’s sub this raid btw
Not like output but feel

Any fights that align well with its CDs?

[alpine wraith]

it is good just nothing crazy

we are quite useful on rick and one armed

but also so are ww monks

one thing we do better is we can avoid some mechanics to make our dmg more reliable

with vanish or evasion

[rustic pond]

what can we avoid with vanish ?

[alpine wraith]

fixate from bombs on one armed bandit

[spark plover]

beam on rik

[slate lantern]

on heroic OAB are we just sending cds or do we wait for certain ad phases and such

[rustic pond]

hmm ok nice

[alpine wraith]

just do it very fast so people dont get confused

[alpine wraith]

heroic has super high variance on timers depending on people's gear

you can risk losing a cast of flag

if you delay too much

ideally you have always dances for reels

and some cds for adds little or big

[slate lantern]

yeah ive only done it once (shitter guild) and my parse/ad damage was so bad cause i was just sending on cd but wasnt lining up with adds

[mint swift]

Oh slick that means FD prolly works for me too

[alpine wraith]

i did it the other day in a pug if you want to look at timers but you can also just look at logs from the big people although they are likely from a guild

so kill time might be 2 mins earlier LUL

[hallow sigil]

What does evasion get rid of tho?

[alpine wraith]

you dont get stunned in rik

if you evasion his slam thingy

[hallow sigil]

[alpine wraith]

and look at him

[hallow sigil]

Wish I knew that yesterday

[alpine wraith]

as human just can also just feint and cleanse it

just remember to feint or you get 1 tapped

[hallow sigil]

Then again we killed on my worst pull ever where I got mcd twice and sucked a pillar on 2 add sets for a gray parse so I don't think that would change much

[alpine wraith]

well im benched so at least you got to live the boss

[earnest reef]

is sub or sin more secondary stats dependent? Started to play both and want to craft my second and third slots. M+ focused.

[alpine wraith]

sub does not like haste

assa does not mind any stat really

if you want to craft for both mastery crit or mastery vers work fine

[rustic geyser]

if you go mastery vers, it both moonlights as sub/sin, as well as being good for m+ and pvp

[brittle echo]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[dense lichen]

If it’s just for M+, the stat prio for Sin and Sub are pretty similar. Sin wants more crit, Sub wants more vers. You’ll have a bad time as Sin on boss fights without haste but Sin is doodoo in ST anyway so who cares. Just keep a few rings and necks that you can swap out when you want to change specs.

[fleet acorn]

why we need to play no shuriken tornado as sub? xd

[alpine wraith]

it is annoying to use and the win is not that much

[fleet acorn]

blizzard destroying more and more the spec

[lucid jackal]

?

[alpine wraith]

dont think i encountered almost anyone that liked tornado

congratulations you are the first

[hazy breach]

Play tornado if you want to

[strange chasm]

I honestly think sub is in great shape

maybe just needs some number adjust

[alpine wraith]

yea like sub in bfa right

[strange chasm]

but its very good design wise

[vagrant thorn]

back in DF whenever I seamlessly integreted it with perfection into dance it felt amazing and did big damage, but it took me a long time to get used to it 😛

[alpine wraith]

this time only 8% behind instead of 20 at least

but they might buff assa again

[dense lichen]

The Dance Dance Revolution is alive and well

[alpine wraith]

so sub might also get one

[hazy breach]

Well now the ideal way to use it is to not use it with dance

Literally just use it outside of cds for extra cdr

[languid trench]

hi guys im new to sub the only spec i play before was outlaw haha you use cold bold on which spell ?

[alpine wraith]

yea extra cdr and putting ruptures

[vagrant thorn]

what do you need to give up for it?

[alpine wraith]

cold blood with secret technique

you have to use it instead of veiltouched

[vagrant thorn]

not a very exciting talent, whats supposed to be the overall dps loss? 😛

youre gonna tell me to sim it arent you

[tepid trellis]

[alpine wraith]

well it is not a loss always

but also fuck tornado

should get this treatment