subtlety

[limpid sage]

Do you ever sit on 2 charges of Shadow Dance to guarantee having it up for Flag window? (Given a complete patchwerk boss with no downtime)

[remote shuttle]

Yo bud, can you share that thing pls?

[paper iron]

In reality can happen. On a dummy 100% uptime i m not sûre it would happen once

[solemn carbon]

Gents, a question: am I sending shadow dance on cd, or am sitting on the one nearest shadow blades to get 2 inside the blades/ flag window?

[vale pine]

you send shadow dance with symbols

and you send symbols when secret is close to getting off cd

in general you use

cooldowns in a cycle something like this

1: 2x symbols/dance/secret (your 90 sec cooldows here) -- symbols/dance/secret -- symbols/dance/secret
**2:**2x symbols/dance/secret (your 90 sec cooldows here) ------ symbols/dance/secret ------
repeat

it can happen that one of the symbols/dance/secret casts ends up without dance

hope that makes sense

[mighty citrus]

question: when i press st with 1 second of dance left, are all st hits buffed or only the first?

[vale pine]

secret techniques

?

it is a 3 part attack

the 2nd and 3rd attack are the important ones

and they are delayed by 1 sec and 1.3 sec

so if you use it with 1 sec left, likely that both are not empowered by shadow dance

[alpine wraith]

you wont get the third

and likely the second either buffed if you sec tech with 1 sec left

[hollow spear]

If you st with only 1s left on dance

Something must have gone wrong

[mighty citrus]

yeah iam often too slow

already working on that

[fierce minnow]

is 2p+2p a thing for sub?

kinda slackin lately

[alpine wraith]

if the ilvl is high enough yes

just sim it

[solemn carbon]

It does thank you

I need to work on my symbol secret tech usage

So pooling the dance for an upcoming blades isn’t worth as you lose extra casts of tech/symbols?

[vale pine]

you will always try to have 2x symbols/dance/secrets during big cds

the use between is what you optimize/juggle

[solemn carbon]

Ok thanks

[gritty zenith]

if im not popping big cds but we need to clear a pack before boss should i pop shadow dance with symbols of death?

[opaque valve]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[shy scarab]

Yes

[gritty zenith]

ok ty

[sonic hamlet]

sorry this is where i get lost with sub a bit, m+ for example big pull at start i use 3x dance/symbols and 90 sec cds then between this use and the 90 sec cds resetting how many dances/symbols should i use

try to fit 1/2 into that gap

[vale pine]

3 is just 2 --- 1

the intitial 2 symbols during flag/blades last fairly long

so you often will transition in a 3rd one after

[stiff stirrup]

does shadow dance count as stealth? wondering about the 2% leech talent

[vale pine]

nope

[stiff stirrup]

so its literally for one global?

[vale pine]

great talent

yep

[stiff stirrup]

amazing

[sonic hamlet]

i get that part but its during the 90 sec wait for SB and flag to come up

whats the goal during that window

1 dance and then wait for cds or 2 dances then wait

[alpine wraith]

wonder if the leech works in subterfuge

unlikely tho

[verbal turret]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[final holly]

Does the SS teleport work in subterfuge? I imagine they share the same logic for what counts as stealth

[alpine wraith]

you only tp once

they changed that in legion after a while

it was kinda silly tho

[vale pine]

i am unsure what you ask for

the spec is essentially centered around cooldowns

the cooldown windows are your "highs" most of your damage is

and between them

you essentially do maintainance stuff or filler spells

i assume the quetsion is

"now that i know what to do during cooldowns, i don't understand what to do outside of them"

and if thats the case, you use backstab

and rupture if it needs maintaiance

or else evis

storm instead of backstab with more targets

and with a lot more black powder instead of evis

[limpid sage]

Anyone know what the “/cqs” part is for? I know it cancels your spell queue but don’t see why it’d be an issue

[sonic hamlet]

erm sorry i'm not being clear

say for example in a m+ you do a big pull you use 2x symbols/dance/secret (your 90 sec cooldows here) -- symbols/dance/secret -- symbols/dance/secret

now that pull is dead and you move onto the next pull you have dance + symbols available but still 1 minute left on flag & blades. do you just backstab an rupture for the next 60 seconds or throw dance & symbols

[vale pine]

well

the sequcnce you mentioned

is not 30 sec long

but more like

your cooldowns probably are like 25 + 10 + downtime + 10

so lets say minimum 45 sec on your cooldowns (probably less tho)

you burned your dances, symbols and secret

so you can't rly do much

you need symbols charges for your next big cooldown window

so you are storm/backstab and evis/bping and spreading rupture yes

symbols has no cdr component to it

so you can't use it more than once every 25 secs once you burned your charges

[sonic hamlet]

i see

I think i see the low damage outside of big cds an just press dance / symbols which ofc doesn't help

[hollow spear]

I think fuu answered that question this morning already. You use 2 charges during your cooldowns. Then you alternate between using 2 charges and 1 charges in between the next cooldown windows.

This changes based on uptime, if you can't hit stuff for cdr you might have to do 1 instead of 2.

In my experience, you eventually become limited by your symbol charges because of the increased dance cdr from using storm on multiple mobs.

[sly shore]

I just have a buff in my auras that shows duration

because it's simply a buff that counts down

[solemn carbon]

Is this 2+ or 3+ targets?

[clever delta]

I became pvp trinket gamer

We had zero hoc dropped or kezana or rings

It's kinda funny relearning this non vanish opener

[hollow spear]

Kinda nice to get vanish to use it on mechanics

Even if it's only used as a 10% dr and/or ms boost

[brisk onyx]

GB can no longer attach FW when critically hitting?

[frosty thunder]

does find weakness affect secret tech damage?

[clever delta]

Opener so many off gcd globals now

[solemn carbon]

Haven’t looked into pvp trinkets for a while - what’s the highest ilvl of the honor one?

[alpine wraith]

658

quite decent

[solemn carbon]

Oh that’s respectable

Might have to snag that

[mystic cloak]

that's the conquest one tho, but still fairly easy to get

[solemn carbon]

700?

[mystic cloak]

ye

[solemn carbon]

Ta

[fathom adder]

how many dances do you try to sqish between your 1:30 double dances in m+ aoe situations? still trying to get 2cd -> 2 -> 2cd -> 1 repeat? or do you have a different indicator when to stop using dances to save for your cd window ?

[plush roost]

Bricked cinderbrew 14 by 9 seconds, workshop 15 by 15 seconds, and top 15 by 16 seconds today

How are you all doing

Im great

[remote shuttle]

Well gj btw pushing 14s and 15s

I miss cinder and priory 12 to have all dungeon timed 12+

[alpine wraith]

bad crit rng rip

[remote shuttle]

Depleted x2 cinder 12+ by like 20/30 secs yesterday... Cheers 🥂😂

[clever delta]

You can't get that trinket hero track right

That's not a thing in pvp

[alpine wraith]

which one

the conquest one? no since they changed pvp track to not exist

[clever delta]

Yeah

That trinket has hidden value

You can send it with dance cold blood if you not getting another set of cds

Very c0ol

And can move my pot do blades too

Only good things

[copper vapor]

hello, is there a prefered order in casting SD & SoD or it does not matte r?

[vale pine]

3+ targets outside of dance, you would only use one storm during dance on 7+ targets

[cloud rover]

Fuu do you know if the sim tries to get transmitter buff

before the first Sectech

[solemn carbon]

Yeah why is that - to spread FW?

[vale pine]

yes

also because of a bug

2nd builder in dance

[solemn carbon]

Thought so cheers

[vale pine]

not first

[solemn carbon]

Oh?

[vale pine]

moment

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[vale pine]

https://github.com/SimCMinMax/WoW-BugTracker/issues/1141

^ the headline pmuch discribes it

storm works per target hit, means both rotten stacks would be consumed

so you never use storm first builder

[solemn carbon]

The more you know…

Thanks, bit of fine tuning needed

[lilac stag]

Its pairs the buff pickup perfectly with every Sectech. GL!

[cloud rover]

[lilac stag]

the start of the game has a 1-5 second variable

Basically just play badge if you don’t have HoC

or be a transmitter wizard

[cloud rover]

Well Transmitter on Sprocketmonger

is kinda spicy

But i need to kill Bandit random

Because i wont get HoC

[vestal escarp]

Radio operator

📻 🔮 ⭕

[crystal bone]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[crystal bone]

fuu still here?

[sacred yarrow]

20 minutes ago, yes

[clever delta]

I'm locked in for lockmaster

Any pro advices

[vale pine]

whats up

[mighty citrus]

i saw some people play with finality in raid instead of rotten. can you just replace the same for our mplus build?

[clever delta]

No, need rotten for aoe

[crystal bone]

i noticed your targets in range WA does not mention nimble, does it work for that too?

[vale pine]

you want rotten in m+ to spread find weakness

[mighty citrus]

ah sure

[vale pine]

so rotten is in generla prefered

[mighty citrus]

yeah makes sense

[vale pine]

should be the same range, so yes

for raid

finality is very close

[crystal bone]

kk

[vale pine]

on bis sim within low margins like 0.1 or 0.2% dps

so finality is def. an option for raiding

[grand galleon]

question about coup de grace outside of cooldows - do we want to use it with full combo points? meaning that if I have 6 should I backstab one more time to get 7 a then coup?

[odd knoll]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[dark mica]

!logreview https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/mx9bL12HdGWFfJhB?fight=14&type=damage-done&source=2

if anyone has a sec to help me figure out what I could do better..first mythic fights as sub (CE ass last tier)

[knotty thistle]

focusing lens on neck craft? or that embrace the darkness one

[tribal blade]

i just broke 3100 today so i'm looking forward to going through what you went through too

[odd knoll]

any1 has wa for target count?

[lilac stag]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[late quiver]

i keep fucking my shadowblades in m+, what should be the remaining cd on sb when i stop pressing shadowdance?

[empty cargo]

30 secs I believe

[late quiver]

thank you

[odd knoll]

target count is loading only in shadow dance somehow. how can i change it to be loaded all the time?

[empty cargo]

!logreview https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/mBLDjG3gzrqaKWMn?fight=last&type=summary

[empty cargo]

Roast me please

[fleet acorn]

!trinkets

[crystal bone]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[crystal bone]

wowhead bis gear and scroll down

[fleet acorn]

I got heroic Delve energy drink but not sure its better then House of cards heroic & heroic pacemaker

[jaunty umbra]

you sim and find out

[alpine wraith]

should be better than pacemaker

[paper iron]

i didnt know that, it sounds awfull why they do rogue like that

but since u dont want to use storm with premed, it s not that big of a deal, it s mostly gonna be 2nd cast naturally in 99% cases

[vale pine]

each class and spec has their set of bugs

its not exclusive, we just happen to often have small bugs which stay up for long time

sometimes extremely annoying ones

[paper iron]

yea ofc, but rogues feel like they keep their thousand of little bugs forever

yea exactly

Well, destro kept their rain of fire generating shard bug for 4 seasons, extremely annoying to become the strongest aoe one button spec

[native zodiac]

The replicating shadow bug was the worst

Im glad that is fixed

[open coyote]

anyone able to tip me on which item i should prioritize with my next craft

[tribal blade]

taking a quick glance most likely vers/mast neck

but sims would know better

btw 2/2pc is kinda dogshit for sub, most likely your old 4pc would still be simming higher

[open coyote]

seems to me like the oevrall feedback on these new tier sets is that they're not fun, nor good,

[open coyote]

cheers

[tribal blade]

it's more so the new 2pc is not good without the 4pc

because the 4pc gives you dance protection where you gain stacks faster and can't drop them

[lilac stag]

they’re rather generic gamba bonuses where tuning is all over the place between specs. What’s not to like?

[olive siren]

can i play sub with a slow weapon in offhand ? i can use all attacks just asking cause of some talents or dmg

[swift tinsel]

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[olive siren]

okay tyvm 🙂

can i drop haste to 0% or do i need some ?

[keen yew]

what's the aoe range of sectec ? 7m like nimble or ?

[dusk sparrow]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

You’ll get haste from tier. Just sim gear. Look for mostly vers & mastery after ilvl

[lilac pendant]

Is there a way to make a macro with modifier for secret technique with cold blood?

[rustic pond]

in m+ , particularly in pug where you dont really know if the tank will pull big or not and aside from bosses, when do you know when to use your big window ? On cd when there is 4+ target ? or you try to delay it hoping there will be bigger packs ?

[young trench]

coolies on cooldown

[rustic pond]

even if it happens to be on very few targets ?

[hazy breach]

As long as you get to use the entire cooldown (or close to it) then just send

[young trench]

you wont get good cooldown usage without trying them out multiple times each dungeon

and having bad cd timings is also a part of that

imo

[rustic pond]

Ok so on cd as much as possible, delying it a bit if theres a better opportunity like 10 20 sec later

[young trench]

[rustic pond]

thanks

[old venture]

based af

best way to learn is to just blast and figure it out as you go esp if you're pugging

[lucid swallow]

can anyone explain why stat weights don't really apply to sub rogue?

[young trench]

stat weight is an outdated concept for simming. just use top gear

[lucid swallow]

but wouldnt stat weights still help provide an understanding at what point diminishing returns make other stats more viable?

[young trench]

100% people see high key blasters and are dumbfounded when their own dps in the third key this season isnt the same

[hazy breach]

No, as theyre just a topgear sim but less accurate

[young trench]

you want mastery vers and ilvl theres not much more to it tbh

[hazy breach]

The reason stat weights were used in the past was because simming was complicated and cumbersome, so instead of comparing every item you'd have a theorycrafter bring you some approximate guidelines (stat weights)

Now you can easily sim and compare the items themselves

So stat weights are completely redundant

[old venture]

yes and no, essentially top gear just takes out the extra step of figuring out the balance yourself. Because before you'd run stat weights and then gear according to that (which would shift your weights), now top gear just does it for you

[remote shuttle]

21k soft cap mastery, u lose 10% going higher... Doesn't mean u don't wanna go higher... Sim will tell you

[young trench]

i for one welcome our AI overlords all hail the robot 🤖

[hazy breach]

Where do you think they got the stat weights from to begin with

[young trench]

xdd

[rustic pond]

and for Versa is there a soft cap ? i'm at 21k with flask up, wondering if mastery flask would be better

[young trench]

sim it friend

[old venture]

Way back in the day, talking TBC days, we used to have an actual excel spreadsheet with the gear added to it manually. Now THAT was cursed

[alpine wraith]

before you had to do combinations then plot them to get the statweights

[rustic pond]

i didnt find how to sim flask

[hazy breach]

Generally the best flask is alchemical

[remote shuttle]

30% all other sec stats

Mastery % depends on how it scales on the spec

So 21k is the flat soft cap for mast

[rustic pond]

ok

[remote shuttle]

U can sim with vers flask, then resim with same gear but mast flask

Will work just need sim2 times

[lilac stag]

There’s also consumables inputs for advanced sims in #tc-research

[rustic pond]

when i tried to sim with different flask (in the option below) raid bot seem to not understand i want to sim with my actual gear, not different gear option

so it tells me theres nothing to sim (since i dont choose different gear part)

[lilac stag]

Quick aim with alchemical.

Rerun quick sim with versa

compare numbers

Or used advanced sim and input the desired variables (flasks)

[rustic pond]

ok

ty

[alpine wraith]

yea to sim diff consumables you dont top gear you go advanced and make combinations

[twilit phoenix]

I just use versa

[young trench]

i just use what i find in my bags

[twilit phoenix]

I’m at 36% vers with flask + druid buff

[alpine wraith]

the rock

[twilit phoenix]

[lilac stag]

Mastery overtook vers for me. Will re-evaluate once I’ve used up the 60+ r3 vers flasks I’ve multicrafted.

[alpine wraith]

i kinda love tfd so mastery is best for me

and finality i take those 0.4% vs rotten too

[twilit phoenix]

Realistically I should prolly shift my enchants into mastery

But my gear just ended up that way

[alpine wraith]

my flask is still chaos tho

gotta love pot giving all stats

[twilit phoenix]

Vers on every piece, but not mast on every piece

[lilac stag]

Gotta love the extra money for less conc. Can’t be chugging down profits.

[paper iron]

back in the day where u swap an item > stat weight > swap an item > stat weight > swap an item stat weight

maybe that was just me being bad at simming back then

[fathom adder]

do you try to do the same Sd cycle like in St in M+ aoe situations as well? 2SD+cd -> 2sd between -> 2SD+cd -> 1 SD between and repear or are there any other indicators you use to determine when to stop using sds to be safe with the double cd usage?

[alpine wraith]

you kinda didnt do that

you just did permutations

the old cousin of combinations

with simpermut

[young trench]

xp of the dungeon to determine if you can send extra small cds before you going into next big burst

[alpine wraith]

it created the profiles to add to the sim

[paper iron]

i dont think i ever known that havent play legion and came back late late late in bfa

[lilac stag]

chasing your tail or just going around in circles

[fresh adder]

Coming back to rogue, probably I am bad but I was wondering what phone games, or browser tabs do you have open to fill your time between CDs?

[paper iron]

i m mostly amazon shopping

[fresh adder]

good suggestion

sub plays like arcane but does way more damage

unless I am doin' it wrong?

[honest saddle]

Kind of like arcane where you have a burst moment and a maintenance period.

[fresh adder]

yea ok

[paper iron]

what is the command already?

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[paper iron]

oh there we go

[fresh adder]

you did it

[frigid sphinx]

Does anyone do some log review in here?

[placid crown]

yes

Sprocketmonger Lockenstock HM world parses:

deathstalker

all subs :

wanna cry

make the talents balanced again

[void verge]

Does anyone know of a good alternative to wowanalyzer for data-based improvement suggestions? Since they don’t have subtlety support

[tepid trellis]

pretty sure a 2% diff en hero talents is as close as you are gonna get lol

[pulsar hemlock]

Change fatebound to an ethereal themed assassin and then we ball

11.2 rogue changes leak

[frigid sphinx]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jnAdRz7cCPwQXYvm?fight=9&type=damage-done

If anyone knows any rotation fuck ups I’m doing pls let me know

[lilac stag]

There isn’t one. Use !log

[shy scarab]

ur cold blood makes shadowstrike 100% critt instead of secret tech

[crystal bone]

i like to have 2 sectec keybinds

and one is macro'd to cold blood

[simple inlet]

after 20 years it's done, i won the game

[frigid sphinx]

Yeah I’m gonna do that now was resisting the macros ☹️

[crystal bone]

my usual sectec is bound to 2

and my special one is on a shift modifier

only press it on 2nd dance in flag/blades window

muscle memory takes over eventually

i like to sit at the dummy for an hour to train myself on new keybinds

while watching a stream or something lol

[placid crown]

where do you go to have the events shown as in your screenshot ?

[autumn flame]

11k diff between transmitter and 658 hoc

Very tempting just to go with hoc and call it a day

[crystal bone]

when u sim 2.2 mil, 11k wont make a difference

more likely to mess up the transmitter, then ur minus 100k

or something

[grand wyvern]

if you fuck up transmitter even 1 in 100 i would go with hoc

[lavish nebula]

had 6k upgrade on hoc over transmitter. still did it.. fuck the minigame 😄

[shy scarab]

click on events instead of timeline

[placid crown]

and then ?

events put me to this :

[shy scarab]

thats it xD

[shy scarab]

click on cast first

[placid crown]

ty =)))

i see the vanish almost start of his log

as i see it in most of top logs

as i dont see it in wowhead guide

just saying

:)))

[shy scarab]

its the old rotation, its potato potato no gain at all

you can do whatever

[honest saddle]

I can tell you that hoc is better than transmitter for so many reasons. Its way more than 6k upgrade in reality

Timings become better, movement becomes better. With hoc, you can actually play the fucking game again

Jump 3 times

[lucid jackal]

It's just in my weakaura pack

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker

[empty cargo]

Wax in m+ on main hand or still double stones??

[hollow spear]

Doesn't matter

[lilac stag]

@leaden prairie WTF is this trinket?!?!

[leaden prairie]

wtf wtf !!!!

[pulsar gate]

i should upgrade pvp badge to max right?

[leaden prairie]

nerf outlaw aw aw!!!!

[lilac stag]

the number of melee hits is insane.

[lucid jackal]

It scales with your attack speed

and outlaw is like, one of 3 specs that can actually leverage this

[hazy breach]

Make mastery work with slice and dice again so it can be good for sub too! (/s)

[vale pine]

i would not mind if it did tho

[swift tinsel]

More ShT

[final wasp]

Anyone want to donsomething fun tonight

[crystal bone]

[vale pine]

if its about the fazed no parry, thats raid wide last time we tested

[swift tinsel]

He might be checking the 5% damage buff that we get against fazed targets

since the parry is raid-wide instead of just us, possibly the 5% is as well

[final wasp]

It has indeed to do with the parry mech

[swift tinsel]

Ah yeah that's confirmed raid-wide

[lucid jackal]

was fun while it lasted

[final wasp]

But if it also increases dam...

🍝

[vale pine]

it is a flagging problem

known since beta

so its no news

[final wasp]

Blizzard fixing beta problems? Naaaaah.

[keen dome]

They need to just bake it into our kit! Make us the friend of all Warriors. mandatory raid Sub anti-parry boy

[vale pine]

to be fair, it wasn't impacting decisions so far

[swift tinsel]

I don't think its anything game-breaking so might as well just leave it

(plz)

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/to-be-fair-letterkenny-end-scene-fair-be-fair-gif-14321185

[final wasp]

Would be superbased if the dam increase is raidwide though. Rogue has always wanted a raidbuff

[keen dome]

Yeeee

[swift tinsel]

I mean I would not be mad at all if it did

[keen dome]

Our time has COME

3% less damage taken, 5% damage to the raid, no parry for melee.

[vale pine]

i mean it does ^^

just that only subtlety can apply it

[final wasp]

[vale pine]

because outlaw does not play trickster

[hazy breach]

They do now

[lucid jackal]

It does rn

[vale pine]

and assassination does not have the trickster hero talent

[vale pine]

oh true, trickster is not bad this season

[swift tinsel]

now if they just remove the archaic existence of parry...

[lilac stag]

Well the good news is, no one is playing assa

[final wasp]

Parry and dazed is thematic

[swift tinsel]

[vale pine]

80k vs 60k logs

wouldn't say nobody

[lilac stag]

Mythic fuu

[vale pine]

outlaw is on 16k

[lilac stag]

Mythic

[bleak night]

60k nobodies

[vale pine]

mythic has too low of a player base tho

[hazy breach]

Its lovely innit bruv

[lilac stag]

no one cares about heroic

After week 2

[oak idol]

Does anyone have any tips I should know on Sub rogue whilst im learning it- ie something I should avoid at all costs etc

[vale pine]

!cds

[wicked jolt]

Cooldown Use:
Every 90 seconds you want to cast Flagellation and subsequently Shadow Blades. When these two are up you always want cast 2 Symbols of Death, 2 Shadow Dances and 2 Secret Techniques.
To ensure you have enough cooldown reduction on your Shadow Dance to attain that you need atleast 1 charge and roughly 40 seconds left on your second charge before casting Flagellation.

[vale pine]

what you should try is take it slow and ask questions

[hazy breach]

Do the opener (from the guides) until you can do it without looking at anything. Then make sure you do the "opener" everytime your cooldowns are ready

And thats 85% of the spec right there, just doing the opener sequence correctly everytime

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[steel horizon]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[steel horizon]

just saw a youtube vid where a guy says that if you shuriken storm as your first builder in symbols, it consumes both stacks of rotten. is that true?

[quaint lodge]

Yes

[hazy breach]

yes

[vale pine]

yes

https://github.com/SimCMinMax/WoW-BugTracker/issues/1141

^

old bug

[steel horizon]

oh damn

[quaint lodge]

It doesnt mater too much except in aoe anyhow but it is a pain

[hazy breach]

Technically it only does it if you hit more than 1 target

But you wouldnt storm on ST so its kinda moot

[steel horizon]

so the play is still to backstab as 1st builder in aoe then storm as 2nd builder?

[vale pine]

yes

you can technically strike instead of backstab once you get to high target counts

because the gain from backstab becomes neutral

[steel horizon]

makes sense

[pulsar gate]

Would Engi bracers be a bad move?

[quaint lodge]

They don't have the brez on them anymore

[pulsar gate]

You can’t add it as tinker?

[quaint lodge]

Nope

I made that mistake as well last season

[pulsar gate]

wtf

[quaint lodge]

Everybody can buy brez cables now though

Buy the 3 star ones, works everytime

[vale pine]

crafted gear is quite good early on for slots you have bad items in

so not bad

[hazy breach]

The difference between the ranks is the cast time

[pulsar gate]

idk if the potion tinker is bad or not

[hazy breach]

Its 2 seconds at r3 and 6 seconds at r1

None of the tinkers really matter

[pulsar gate]

Engineering has cool potions, they have one that increases group healing by 10-15%

[hazy breach]

Do whatever you fancy

[pulsar gate]

Nobody seems to use it tho

[astral vortex]

should sub use tank or healer brann for delves?

[pulsar gate]

unless it’s bait

[vale pine]

best engineering tinker is still nitro boost

🙂

[pulsar gate]

lol

I might drop Engi then tbh

[lilac stag]

Engineering is nothing but a scarp farmer for auction house selling and popping a Jeeves

[fallow nimbus]

Goblin glider

[pulsar gate]

The repair bots are nice

[hazy breach]

I mean theres no other profession that provides anything either

All professions are for making/saving gold

[vale pine]

you can't

because we have a back enchant

engineering enchants share the "enchant" slot with them

[grand flame]

Doesnt JC gives extra sockets for rings and amuulet?

[fallow nimbus]

You can have both

[pulsar gate]

you can buy that tho

[vale pine]

did that change?

[pulsar gate]

I feel useless without an AoE stun

[hazy breach]

Yes but you can just buy those

[vale pine]

because in DF i could not have nitro boots and the belt enchant

[hazy breach]

Its not JC specific to use the extra gems

[vale pine]

and i would assume back is the same

[grand flame]

Everyone can have 1 socket, JC can have 2 on amulet and rings. Or is it everyone?

[pulsar gate]

everyone

[hazy breach]

Everyone

[pulsar gate]

That would be OP AF

[grand flame]

Ah. Okay. 😄

[pulsar gate]

lol

like absolute BIS

[fallow nimbus]

Back works since back enchants exists i think

[swift tinsel]

Profession-exclusive stuff like that isn't really a thing anymore

[fallow nimbus]

Nitro boost shares a cd with pots

[fallow nimbus]

The belt enchant (was it stamina?) also worked with nitro boost

[pulsar gate]

Like potion bomb of power increases the parties primary stay

Stat*

Idk I might try them out catch the vibe

[fallow nimbus]

Engi enchants don't work if the item has a use effect already

[pulsar gate]

also this MM hunter did like 2.56 overall in my 10 today I didn’t know they were like that

Me and the warr did 1.8 which I was like alright I’m doing my thing

[lilac stag]

The only really useful raid specific profession is alchemy for extended flask (saves the pocketbook)

[pulsar gate]

right

Thematically rogues brewing their own toxins too

I want to get better at using my CC kit but I struggle because I’m either in CDs or energy starved

[fallow nimbus]

Alchi >= engi > rest in terms of usefullness for raids/dungeon/ other stuff with goldmaking aside

Imagine having to use town portals to get around

[quaint lodge]

During your downtime, its fairly easy

Inside of your cds

[vale pine]

i think it overwrote it

[quaint lodge]

I throw a blind and say good luck everybody eles

[pulsar gate]

Engi is convenient

[vale pine]

or was it the back enchant

[pulsar gate]

Lmao

[vale pine]

one of them did overwrite

[quaint lodge]

I either murder the pack or it murders us

[hazy breach]

I like tossing out a kidney shot before going into flag+blades on a pack

[vale pine]

because i was angry that i couldn't use the glider enchant anymore

in DF

[hazy breach]

Thats usually before other people have stunned

[vale pine]

if that changed, and i never noticed thats on me

[hazy breach]

So you can get the full stun

[pulsar gate]

Yeah

[fallow nimbus]

It always worked

[pulsar gate]

645 to 675 wep will be Giga right

Can’t wait to get that bad boy tonight

[paper iron]

give us kidney aoe back

[pulsar gate]

yeah aoe kidney would be crazy

[fallow nimbus]

Wasn't there a cloak with a on use effect?

[paper iron]

they teased us with that but didnt implemented it. It was aoe ks for sub, mass blind for outlaw, and i dont remember for assa but something as well

[digital frigate]

does this weeks affix not affect the last boss in rookery?

[paper iron]

we ended up with just mass blind on class tree

[pulsar gate]

Atleast ass has aoe silence

[hazy breach]

Obviously full stun on everything would be insane, but it could be like 2s on aoe

[paper iron]

hey how long is sweep?

[vale pine]

oh possible

maybe i missremembered

haha

maybe i gimped myself by not using glider on back and nitro boots before this xpac

🙃

[paper iron]

🙃

[pulsar gate]

Sweep is like 3-4 s

Feel like shroud been dead for a while

[paper iron]

yea so make ks aoe 3s on a 45s cd with energy + cp requierement, seems fair tbh

[pulsar gate]

Numbing poison is good

[paper iron]

shroud never been that much alive since bfa

we go fast now

[pulsar gate]

What’s our util even

[paper iron]

it s a 6mn cd roar

[pulsar gate]

got dog shit

[void ocean]

so tuning when

[paper iron]

rogue is lacking utilities in comparaison to other classes in the game, that s why i m always saying rogue wont be play in high keys unless it does 10% more damage than the 2nd bestr lcass in the game

[young trench]

rogues are played because rogue players are just built different xdd

[pulsar gate]

I mean we got cheat death, cloak

Can do a lot of solo mob cc

[paper iron]

solo mob ccs are irrelevant nowadays i feel like

[hazy breach]

The 8s kidney is definitely underused

[paper iron]

just play mage + vdh and u got all the stuff covered

[pulsar gate]

Distract is clutch

Yeah mage always bis

[paper iron]

the 8s ks is great

[hazy breach]

8 seconds is a long ass time, and most packs dont actually have more than like 2 dangerous casters

[paper iron]

in top i ask often my prevoker friend to opress roar shooter on pull

so ks last 12s

[pulsar gate]

I didn’t know 8s ks was a thing

Actually I think our util is fine

[hazy breach]

Its definitely on the lower end for m+

[pulsar gate]

What changes would you want

[hazy breach]

Make it so not every single mob sees stealth

So shroud is useful besides the movespeed

[pulsar gate]

which classes have the best kits

Mage, shaman

[hazy breach]

Druids

[paper iron]

i would not like it eleem

if shroud is mandatory

[pulsar gate]

yeah druids

[paper iron]

then rogue is mandatory

still a balance issue

even if that makes me able to play the game

[low steppe]

what's KS?

[novel plaza]

kidney

[pulsar gate]

balance is boring AF tho

[hazy breach]

Then again, whats the point of having shroud if literally every mob sees stealth

[twilit phoenix]

the amount of truesight this season is crazy

[hazy breach]

Most will just play priest anyway

[pulsar gate]

mark kinda bis

[fallow nimbus]

Was meant as a priest mind soothe nerf

[oak grotto]

Is it valid to sim dungeonslice?

[pulsar gate]

Should I reroll mage boomy or Ele

[twilit phoenix]

warlock

destro going brazy rn

[paper iron]

yea idk why mass sooth is not on a 2mn cd or something like that

[dry belfry]

Little question how do you manage to have the first dance when your tank chain pulling? And when de cd reset when your tank pull when unwhere at 1 sec to have your 1st dance are you waiting 6 more second or fuck off?

[hazy breach]

Is there even any good shrouds this season? I know of the waterwalking one in floodgate with sub

And you can shroud past the two assassins in motherlode at the start ig

[pulsar gate]

Rogue sucks gg

[paper iron]

there are some lemme check my routes

[keen dome]

The start of ToP, too

It's very whatever though

[hidden warren]

Start of top can be done w/ a sap

[paper iron]

first 2 note can be shroud

[keen dome]

Oh, the penultimate pack in Mechagon too

[paper iron]

also shroud speed is good in meadery for speed, not mandatory

[hazy breach]

I guess i shouldve specifed is there any shroud skips where you cant just do it with soothe

[paper iron]

dfc shroud is just for speed also

[keen dome]

Hmm

[paper iron]

u can also skip a pack before 1st boss, why not i like this route

[keen dome]

Yeah, none I can think of

[paper iron]

rookery useless

[keen dome]

The only one is the start of ToP which needs a rogue for distraction if you want to skip all four mobs (so both packs)

That I can think of

[paper iron]

on floodgate this shroud can be good after 2nd boss

but not mandatory

can just be carefull and walk through

ML u can shroud first part of the dungeon, the arrow thing u can just walk through, it s good but not mandatory i feel like

[keen dome]

Wouldn't you need to get a lot of % in the final two areas via that?

I guess skipping the big mechs is nice

[paper iron]

top u have a lot of good stuff about speed shroud, can also help u skip 3rdminiboss with it

[crystal bone]

2 shrouds in mechagon

[paper iron]

and workshop nothing

so shroud is a bit bizarre

there u go for ML, secret route

[keen dome]

What's the first one? I know the second is gnona be second to last pack. Skipping the tunnel trash after boss 1?

[crystal bone]

corner pack by the last boss, and the slime pack with the unit against the wall in the trash tunnel

[keen dome]

huh, yeah, that's pretty nice. Much easier trash

[paper iron]

do u mean skipping that?

idk if that s any worth

[keen dome]

It's the best packs in the dungeon

massive Sub stonks

[paper iron]

only pull 3 is dangerous here, pull 4 is whatever

[crystal bone]

u can skip the 3 dogs on the left of boss

[paper iron]

yea but what do u gain for that

[crystal bone]

idk man idk the routes

i just know what u can shroud

[keen dome]

Gate skipping the final two packs?

[paper iron]

that s the only way to skip the 2 last packs, u just skip one dog by the boss

[paper iron]

tank pulling to the corner, people walking by

[hazy breach]

You cant shroud the last pack either, only the penultimate pack

Unless you use it with a tank

[keen dome]

Yeah

[paper iron]

if nelf can meld reset, if not just die and get mass rezed

[keen dome]

Makes sense

[hazy breach]

But then the shroud doesnt really matter right

[paper iron]

it doesnt at all on workshop

[keen dome]

Can do the same with preist / wl

[paper iron]

i havent found a good shroud there

oh

well

u have one

[hazy breach]

Its good for speed

But not like skipping stuff

[paper iron]

u can shroud pull 11 to do boss with lust + cd first, then go back to pull 11

that s the only good use of shroud here

[hazy breach]

You can literally just race through the robotmaze without having to stop

Just run straight, distract last robot and boom, done insta with 100% speed

(its not actually straight, its very windy)

[paper iron]

now i m looking at my routes

that i ve stole a lot from top team and re arranged some parts

[crystal bone]

ive shrouded my raid thru half the trash in LoU, massive gains

[paper iron]

shroud is just good in meadery / top but that s bnecause of the speed

not really the skips

gladly sub got one thing for him last patch : vanish is back to be an utility thing. So it can be used for some stuff. Sadly since we dont play double vanish we cant use cloak in shadow efficiently but eh, not really good to have a shield vs constant dmg reduc this season i feel so far

[obtuse dirge]

during dance at +7 targets do you still coup de grace over powder?

[paper iron]

yes

[obtuse dirge]

!cds

[wicked jolt]

Cooldown Use:
Every 90 seconds you want to cast Flagellation and subsequently Shadow Blades. When these two are up you always want cast 2 Symbols of Death, 2 Shadow Dances and 2 Secret Techniques.
To ensure you have enough cooldown reduction on your Shadow Dance to attain that you need atleast 1 charge and roughly 40 seconds left on your second charge before casting Flagellation.

[quick latch]

hey which trinkets are better in aoe and which in st? or are they all more like a overall trinket?

or like a raid combo and a combo for m+

[paper iron]

well i d say house of card everywhere

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[paper iron]

apparently geargrinders goes hard in dslice

[thorny rivet]

Big boom

[paper iron]

i bet that thing pull everything like junkyard trinket motorbike did back then

[cunning notch]

finally 100% master

[robust igloo]

!gear

!craft

[flat ember]

4

.0

4

.

[paper iron]

first : craft your main weapon if u dont have a 675+ main hand weapon.
Second : Craft w/e slot is bad for you : neck / boot / glove / head / wrist / idk what else

from wowhead, if you want more details go check

[robust igloo]

THANK YOU SOO MUCH <2+1 🤍

[haughty mural]

Neck is a good craft this season since we lack good ones at the overall loottable

(My humble opinion)

[paper iron]

it is, but i dont think u can put an embelish on it sadly

[nocturne rose]

u can

so neck is super strong craft

[haughty mural]

Elemental focus can go on neck iirc

[paper iron]

oh then sure, since i farmed pvp neck and had really bad boots i did that cuz it was just instant gain for progress

but then yea if u can embelish neck, it s probably one of the best best until you re almost full bis and can use the crit vers from raid instead to balance some crit

[haughty mural]

Got the heroic lockenstock boots pretty early, so was lucky

[quick latch]

damn how the f u got 100

[paper iron]

which stats are they?

[haughty mural]

Crit mastery

Rushed beta launchers

Not too bad

[deep estuary]

I have like 105 last I checked. Too might isn't good i need way more vers lol

[quick latch]

damn im 660 ilvl and only got 64%

[deep estuary]

Oof

[quick latch]

can i see your armory

[nocturne rose]

660 with 64%? huh

You going haste build or whats up?

[haughty mural]

14% haste

[deep estuary]

My gear ain't even good I'm only 647 but just have loads of mastery

[quick latch]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/eu/blackmoore/zimmerman

[deep estuary]

https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com/en-gb/character/eu/draenor/taniuss/

[tepid trellis]

[quick latch]

i guess i gotta farm a few new items lol

[nocturne rose]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/eu/tarren-mill/smygbullar

yeah ma

you have way too much crit

[quick latch]

can you tell me which items i should change asap

[nocturne rose]

Just sim yourself, and farm whatever it tells you

[wary cloak]

what am i doing wrong with this sim https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/7RkPArSevobb5zpeWkk8ee

skardyns > badge?

[haughty mural]

I have only 772 haste left

[wary cloak]

i guess it is marginal but still

[quick latch]

do use the droptimizer sim?

[nocturne rose]

yes! That's the play for sure

[quick latch]

aight lemme check , never used that one

[tepid trellis]

try swapping seaforium in the bottom slot then run the sim again

[wary cloak]

on it

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/1CvJoqWytk61SiyFu4NDsc
okay yeah now skardyns behind by 1.1%

[nocturne rose]

@tepid trellis Will you drop Lockenstock POV when u kill?

[tepid trellis]

likely

[nocturne rose]

sick

[wary cloak]

this is just a sim issue i hope and not an in game one?

[tepid trellis]

sim issue

[paper iron]

oh u havent killed it yestday

u were so close

[tepid trellis]

happens

we played too sloppy

it is what it is

[paper iron]

we startt it tonight, i gotta watch timers but i guess u can just send on cd on it anyway. Gonna check

[tepid trellis]

3min one

you delay

for after you move

and then 4:30 one you hold for 5min

for 2nd pot

[hazy breach]

If you think youll kill it before 6 mins ye

(which you should, but things can happen)

[warm marlin]

Is the 3min flag that bad to do while moving

I was doing it initially and wasn’t dropping globals

[tepid trellis]

boss doesent like to insta move

[cunning notch]

idk bro ahaha just wearing best gear i can atm

[tepid trellis]

so sometimes the floor will get electrocute

d

before he evens start moving

[astral minnow]

should I hard swap on barrels on Rik, or just cleave?

[tepid trellis]

cleave

[warm marlin]

big cloak angle

[tepid trellis]

only hard swap if they are far out and they actually need people swapping to them

[warm marlin]

If ur holding for 5mins anyway ig it’s no loss

we only made it to 2nd knock once

[random hare]

@tepid trellis

hi boss

[tepid trellis]

?

[shrewd wren]

stealthi you streaming this weekend?

[tepid trellis]

sunday

[shrewd wren]

right on

gl mate

[paper iron]

ty stealthi

u re the cutest racoon ever when u dont shitalk outlaw

[marble ledge]

Is anyone else noticing Tricks of the Trade, especially the 1 hr talent just straight up not working?

[paper iron]

to me it works too much, tank die and when he rez all the mob will evade and snap to him

[random hare]

nothing boss just wanted to call you boss, boss

[paper iron]

Call him big boss now

if u know u know

[spiral pewter]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lucid jackal]

Sub is so auto pilot now u just dont need timers I feel

The most "Advanced" shit is like, evaluating when to hold a dance on a fight like OAB

which should take u like 2 pulls to understand

[rustic pond]

Are there ressources for when to use Flag/SB window for each boss of the raid ? Or simply looking at warcraft logs top parses ?

[lucid jackal]

https://lorrgs.io/

U can use this website

or u can use cooldowns on cooldown

Which is in most situations, correct

[rustic pond]

alright nice thanks

[full pollen]

is it worth to swap between targets to refresh "find weakness" while dance is running ?

on 4 target fight for example

[paper iron]

Nah it s not

i would only apply it in aoe using shuriken storm to boost blackpowder damage, so if u use bp. But u dont on 4 targets so nah !

[tepid trellis]

you overrestimate the avg wow player im afraid

[vale pine]

:/ feel free to overestimate me

[haughty rose]

yoo

the guide on wowhead mentions to use rupture right after flagellation but before shadow dance. wouldnt it make more sense to use it after shadow dance to get another stack of danse macabre? and do i use backstab after every shadow dance or just after the first shadow dance in the cd burst?

PvE Single Target

[vale pine]

you want to refresh rupture before cooldowns

[tepid trellis]

6% dmg from DM doesent outweigh the dead global

[vale pine]

so doing so before/after flagellation makes sense

[tepid trellis]

its more worth to do instant dmg abilities

[vale pine]

rupture also does not do extra damage on application

so you don't get any benefits of using it during dance

[haughty rose]

aight yeah i thought about that but don't really know how to do the math

[vale pine]

in fact you use a finisher slot for something you else would passively increase

[rustic pond]

is there a way to sim different openings ? like choosing which skill goes at what time etc ?

[vale pine]

i think this is a easy to get wrong mistake because it needs a bit more of explenation

basically

damage amplifiers don't snapsot

so rupture does a certain amount of damage

and if symbols/dance/etc is up

this damage gets increased

and if its not up, its the standard

[thorny rivet]

Is there a minimum duration to refresh rupture before CDs? I’d assume around 17-18 seconds left and you’re good to go?

[vale pine]

it i think makes a lot of sense with that knowlage, why you would not want to use it during shadow dance

when you get the same benefits if you refresh it before

[vale pine]

you can refresh it if it does not last as long as your cooldowns

so there is no "minimum duration"

[haughty rose]

thank you

and backstab after every shadow dance for danse macabre right?

[vale pine]

yes

its a small min/max

[thorny rivet]

I think I phrased my question wrong but you still answered it. Thanks 🙂

[rustic pond]

does the deleyed dmg of sectech snapshot ? if my cast of sec tech is in the SB window but the delayed dmg come after it end for example

[tepid trellis]

it does not

it get updated dynamically

[runic sinew]

here in rogue sub disc, we have a list from min max? for raid or m+

[thorny rivet]

Snapshotting is a thing of past now right

[rustic pond]

ok so ideally the second cast should be 1.5 or 2 sec before sb ends

[thorny rivet]

Like nothing really snapshots

[paper iron]

besided couple of explicit thing yea snapshot aint a thing in the game anymore

[vale pine]

secret is also a 3 part attack

[paper iron]

and i m not even sure those things i m talking about still snapshot

[vale pine]

initial hit
1 sec after initial - first shadow attack
1.3 sec after initial - second shadow attack

it is also why you would never want to use it last gcd of shadow dance

but given that the rule is to use it as first or asap

you would never delay it that long

[runic sinew]

if the tank move the boss when shadow attack is comming, have a chance to miss? or the attack follow the target?

[rustic pond]

yes

not following

which can give some pretty feels bad moment

[past token]

WHAT

[low steppe]

Can someone explain why this macro sometimes casts both at the same time, sometimes I have to press twice, sometimes it won't cast AC at all?

/cast Ancestral Call```

[steel horizon]

whats the reason that we start BP'ing on 7+ instead of 9+ targets? Nimble flurry cleaves 7 additional (so 8 total targets) right?

[paper iron]

i'd say : more damage

it s usually the reason to why we do things

[steel horizon]

any actual answer?

[steel horizon]

is AC on the gcd?

[warm marlin]

I believe the actual answer is that 100% evis dmg + 60% evis dmg times X becomes less than BP damage times X when X is 6

bp times x+1 whatever

[oblique grove]

is fazed antiparry exclusive to sub trickster or is outlaw included too

[steel horizon]

true. i guess cus nimble cleaving only 60% of evis just falls off at 7 targets compared to 100% of BP

[oblique grove]

I was just told its raid wide

[rustic pond]

Does a mouseover macro for sectech/evis with [] any good ? Or it doesn’t really matter

[vale pine]

no need for it

[twilit phoenix]

I mean, ancestral is a 2 min cd

And blades is 1.5

So you have it for every other burst window

[hazy breach]

Should be both, but havent double checked

Since its the same spell it should be the same

[hazy breach]

It follows the target

It wont miss

[zenith pasture]

New to Sub i have 81% mastery 24% versatility and 18% crit are these stats okay? Do i need more crit? 659 ilvl

[lucid jackal]

Idk

Sim Ur gear

[steel horizon]

so is this not accurate then?

[vale pine]

the radius is around you

but the clone attacks follow

i might should clearify it more

it is why you could outrange it in DF

[bleak wind]

I am pretty sure the first attack is around the target since the first part of sec tech was hitting all adds on second boss last tier but the clones were not

[vale pine]

oh interessting

thats easy to test tho

ill login in a moment

but e.g. in DF

long arms did not extend the range of the clone attacks

so you would if you stand in long arms range not hit with shadow clones

at least for the first 2 seasons

[edgy zenith]

how do you explain rash, though?

minispiders didn't get hit by sectech unless you targeted them

[vale pine]

let me check if annsies theory is correct

[bleak wind]

what about it

[edgy zenith]

and the boss hitbox was massive

[bleak wind]

well if its around the boss then that is more likely to happen

[edgy zenith]

unless it was just a one-off weird hitbox

[bleak wind]

it could just be a bloodbound thing

its very inconsistent anyways

like the small spiders on queen

[edgy zenith]

yeah, definitely

[bleak wind]

you have to target them as well

[edgy zenith]

yeah

even if she's right up against

dunno how it works

[hazy breach]

First hit is around you

Second is around target

Its just that "around target" is sometimes really sketch, which is why caustic spatter got changed like it did in the assa pins

[edgy zenith]

why dont' clones hit minispiders on Ansurek or minispiders on rash then? just janky htiboxes?

ahh

just jank

[bleak wind]

its definitely weird

[pure jay]

https://tenor.com/view/once-again-asking-gif-18234786473894858127

[edgy zenith]

bets on Gallywix adds?

[vale pine]

^ this seems to be the case

[edgy zenith]

someone ping imexile

[vale pine]

i think of it more like a snapshot tho

so if you hit with first hit

the target gets the delayed 2nd trigger

because if i assume it is around the target, it could mean the 2nd and 3rd hit could hit more targets than the intial hit

what i don't see on dummy

[hazy breach]

Bloodbound was especially outrageous because the void reaver trinket would always miss him too and do no damage

Really strange hitboxes all around

[wooden hare]

Could someone let me know the behaviour of sec tech if you use it, and then the target dies before the pop?

Does it still go off and hit whatever else is around?

[hazy breach]

Fairly sure it fizzles, but not 100%

[wooden hare]

Yea, that's what I thought I was seeing in some keys potentially, ty

[winged nimbus]

Hey guys, my guilds rogue is struggling abit on one armed bandit prog can you help him out at all we would really want a kill on sunday as soon as possible

[azure mauve]

maybe im like uber late on this

how true is this

[vale pine]

alright, think thats better?

[vale pine]

parry immunity is true

the 5% buff is not

[azure mauve]

do you think thats intended or happy code?

prob latter right

[vale pine]

also we knew the parry thing since beta, it was frequently mentioned in here

it is a spell data flag issue

the topic seems to get more attention because non rogue discords found out about it

[bleak night]

they only care because they think its giving them 5% damage

[vale pine]

and i am just waiting to see how much the topic is put out of proportion

[wooden hare]

Just to clarify, whatever you hit with the first hit of sec tech, the 2nd hit will follow and always hit?

[vale pine]

the no parry is a buff too

[swift tinsel]

Assumption: all of it

[bleak night]

it is, but when people see no parry they're like "oh thats kinda cool"

[void hound]

sometimes the clones dont appear when the target dies too fast

[vale pine]

Guiltyas tested it on dummy earlier and the 5% buff seemed to not work

[bleak night]

and when they see 5% damage they cream themselves

[swift tinsel]

That's odd because I've definitely seen the clone animation in the place where the mob was when the phys hit connected, even if the mob moved away from that spot

[vale pine]

i was under the impression too, from what i remember

@hazy breach iirc also tested it recently, does this line up with your finding too?

[swift tinsel]

Unless the animation itself stays but the clones track the target

[vale pine]

oh thats interessting, hard to test

maybe the effect is stationary

[swift tinsel]

No guildmates online atm to ask to duel

[swift tinsel]

I've always been under the impression that's the case

[steel horizon]

Yeah i think thats well said

[vale pine]

thanks for the feedback, if you find anything else i can improve on

just let me know

[steel horizon]

For sure

[swift tinsel]

Okay so it looks like the animation stays

but shadow hits still connect

had someone log in, duel, and they ran in a straight line the whole time and I hit them with a sectech

so its just the animation that's misleading

good to know

[vale pine]

think its easiest to just put a dummy

and step it

after the initial attack

i think step can't delete projectiles anymore

[swift tinsel]

if the shadow hits are target-centric, wouldn't that fail to confirm that?

bc if they were player-centric, they wouldn't have hit in the duel bc I didn't move

after the phys hit

[vale pine]

the clone should not hit

if its stationary

as you should be able to step out of range of it

[swift tinsel]

conversely though, if its based on where I am, they shouldn't have hit the person who was out of range of me

because I stopped moving after casting sectech and he kept going

and was still hit by both clone attacks

[vale pine]

if it works like i assume it does

then the first hit "marks" the target for the 2nd attack

[swift tinsel]

yeah, that stands to reason

[vale pine]

how its marked is the question

because if its stationary

it would open a can of worms

[swift tinsel]

what do you mean by stationary

I guess that's my confusion point

[vale pine]

okay let me try to explain

[swift tinsel]

because my understand now is that you hit with the phys, then the clones appear 1 and 1.3 sec later at the target's location

even if the animation isn't in that spot

[steel horizon]

So the clone animation is deceiving. It will occur at the spot of the initial hit, even if the target moves

[swift tinsel]

bc the animation being stationary was leading me to believe it didn't move

yeah

[vale pine]

alright paint time