the bs macro doesn't work with subterfuge
#subtlety
fallow nimbus
lucid jackal
Stats scale differently with raw value
gritty knot
guys, whats the fastest way to farm those conquest points for the trinket? i literally never play PvP at all
thick temple
Yeah how come on the screenshot the value is same but percentage not am I misunderstanding something
lucid jackal
Yeah how come on the screenshot the value is same but percentage not am I misund...
Because that's how stats in the game work
Raw value doesn't convert 1-1 for each stat
mint swift
World of warcraft
lucid jackal
10k crit, haste and vers are all different % values
thick temple
fallow nimbus
#showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1]Backstab
thick temple
Man in s1 I just stacked mastery
lucid jackal
Well it's the same as last season
fallow nimbus
will this work like the macro from the bot command?
lucid jackal
U just stack mastery and vers
thick temple
My Sims last season told me to spam vers onyx's but now I use mast sapphires
At least for current mid gear
fallow nimbus
since dance has its duration as gcd it should work fine
lucid jackal
At least for current mid gear
Sounds pretty normal the stats are interchangeable
fallow nimbus
dance and subterfuge are stance:2, interesting
hazy breach
My Sims last season told me to spam vers onyx's but now I use mast sapphires
With like a 0.1% difference thats within the margin of error for the sims
It genuinely does not matter
pulsar gate
Okay sub Kinda easy
cobalt monolith
Hi the race on the sub rogue is important or not pls ?
paper iron
race arnt that much important in wow unless you do specific content where racials / 0.2% dps matters
since you re asking the question, i would assume you re not, so just pick for preference 
well a bit more than 0.2% currently, here have the sim of races, on the bis profile
alpine wraith
racials do matter if you play one that sucks
but the upper ones are close
like undead and earthen are natty -2% dps
oh it seems it is only 1,6 there at least not as bad
blissful gale
!wa
wicked joltBOT
paper iron
crazy to see undead rogue being so bad 😔
it s kinda the essence of OG roleplayer rogues
cobalt monolith
ok thanks
small pagoda
What does vanish do in the opener
I see it used in a ton of logs
Is it just to cover the 1-2 presses before flang?
tepid trellis
gives you premeditation
austere spindle
!sod
wicked joltBOT
Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs
leaden prairie
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cQfe6oPkKwbXyWcr2G7a9f @hazy breach why does my sim do 1min straight of ruptures ?
i tought it wasnt worth to hold the stacks for your cds
broken dirge
New to sub and heard sub likes the shaman buff, what exactly does it do for us?
lucid jackal
Give combo points
swift tinsel
lmao 4.2bil dps
paper iron
ego energy in outlaw channel happened but yea the rupture thing is questionnable
but also what did u change zac, cant be just evis scaling
swift tinsel
Did you change the logic to rupture only at flag cd <35 or something?
swift tinsel
hm
leaden prairie
ignore the number thats irreelvant
swift tinsel
No i'm looking at the timing of when it switches from evisc to rupture
2nd flag is up at 2:03 and it starts rupturing at 1:22
so almost 40sec of pure rupturing
paper iron
oh a non rigged sim i dont have that, i just have these 2 but why not
leaden prairie
well its a sample
paper iron
u werent even at 8 stacks where it could have acted weird
swift tinsel
p sure the old-old 4pc logic was to start rupturing at 40
paper iron
yea definitly looks like it
hazy breach
I have no idea why its doing more than like 10 seconds of rupture
And delaying flag by like 30 seconds
swift tinsel
You've also somehow enabled a crazy uptime on supercharger
bleak night
wtf
alpine wraith
professions smh
thin lion
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
alpine wraith
it decide to vaal itself
swift tinsel
the more you look the weirder it gets
paper iron
i asked him
swift tinsel
supercharger 7
alpine wraith
in theory he did not touch apl
swift tinsel
lmfao
paper iron
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oQDnhH6dZ1UchoQgfeLwe2 here i won 200k by changing my header custom the same as him
alpine wraith
if all finishers were charged
hazy breach
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oQDnhH6dZ1UchoQgfeLwe2 here i won 200k by...
Well he was doing billions, not millions
alpine wraith
1300 ivl might make things weird
paper iron
i m digging but i m just washed up at digging sims
yea idk
how could that have change the apl tho
swift tinsel
somehow able to bs-finish constantly
Having Supercharge as a Constant Buff might affect things lol
paper iron
yea idk i ve digged it s too hidden for me to figure out what happened, gg zac u won
back to spamming rupture to get this billions dps
fallow nimbus
don't forget your /startattack in the backstab macro
gritty knot
is that mugzee trinket any good for sub?
lucid jackal
The thug shaker hotline is p decent
gritty knot
nice, i am simming it rn. got azerrok on 662, eye of kezan on 658 and now this thug shaker on 658. still 400/500 in que in sims, lets see what it says ^^
alpine wraith
all passive trinkets are whatever really
amorphous relic had promise for M+ but people found out the 1 min timer does not reset on leaving combat
so DoA
sadly drink and amplifier are only delve
so they cap at hero track
paper iron
azerok might be bad because it s a random proc right? If it procs outside cds it s gg. Kezan will probably be better in mythic prog, the ramping part and stuff. I heard thug did good so i wouldnt be suprised it it was your top sim. That s my assumption feelcrafted, let s see what the sim says
kezan looks not so bad in keys either rn
surpisingly
gritty knot
it says azerrok is best, eye of kezan -1000 dps aroundish and thug 40k less 😄
alpine wraith
just you will rage when it procs just after you dance
paper iron
40k less? 
alpine wraith
azerok is myth track
tbh it is a good trink
when it procs on cds you will feel it
paper iron
isnt azerok a mastery stat trinket tho? Shouldnt be a raelly big difference even if it s mythic 🤔
gritty knot
its not mythic its hero track but 662
paper iron
but that s feelcrafting, what do i do when i can just ask raidbot
alpine wraith
ah then yea it is good anyway
kezan is better on longer fights but tbh there are none this tier
unless you do later M bosses
gritty knot
which one would u use in m+? most sub rogues it seems use that crit trinket
idk the name
gritty knot
40k less? <:monkaW:675691826505711626>
ye thats not what I expected ^^
wait. sorry. I did a mistake idk why the fk it simmed dungeon slice. Now I did Patchwerk and Eye of Kezan 558 ilv is 5.570 dps better than my 662 azerrok and thug hotline 658 is only 3577 dps worse than 662 azerrok. sorry
tawdry shell
hello, i'm watching for cast sequences of better rogues to understand why do i suck at sub and i have issues to understand this kind of set up i see frequently, is backstab queued just before sending shadow dance ? and what is this for i cant firgure out the point
paper iron
that s a frequent question
u can dance backstab to generate one more dance macabre stack
paper iron
but u dont sod because it would rotten the backstab, and u rather having it on strike
hacha always here to carry
pulsar gate
Any good videos on rotatio
paper iron
Any good videos on rotatio
yes sir, i'd recommand hacha / eleem
And stealthi if u want in raid fights
that would be my recommandation
tawdry shell
okok thx
alpine wraith
well it is complicated but not hard
you need to do things in the right order and keep doing them
pulsar gate
Yeah after opener I just line up SD and symbols
hazy breach
Timing your dance+symbols is complicated
pulsar gate
Sec tech and build to evis
When dance runs out and I have 1 charge but symbols has 4 seconds left
Do I wait to refresh
hazy breach
You do not symbols unless sectech has less than 10 seconds cd left
Because then you would be wasting supercharger on non-sectech finishers
pulsar gate
how does supercharger work
alpine wraith
it makes the finisher act as if it had 3 extra combo points onto it
after using SoD
has 2 charges when used
pulsar gate
I think I’m missing a bunch of nuances
And hence why I think ez
so you don’t need to build all the way with it then?
obtuse phoenix
how long does a target need to live for rupture to be worth casting over evisc?
paper iron
as i always say, to me sub isnt hard to play, the hard stuff is to understand why we do what we do and how stuff synergise together. Most question in here are like "is sub even doign shadow damage outside of blades" and stuff like that
alpine wraith
you can always sim depends on the people i crafted head for example because i got the pvp neck
as for conquest i just did epic bgs but someone said there are crate farming groups
every 15 mis a crate drops that gives some conq
pulsar gate
as i always say, to me sub isnt hard to play, the hard stuff is to understand wh...
So it’s a series of mental choices?
of knowing what to do when is the skill cap
?
paper iron
hacha, about the disorienting strike, do i have to sectech inside the dungeon or i can use it outside and i ll keep the buff when entering the dungeon?
alpine wraith
anywhere
i do it sometimes on the dornogal dummies
or just on a random mob after using the dungeon portal
just cheapshot sec tech
muted frigate
ty
vocal crypt
which trinkets for m+ ?
i got the Pacemaker, Honey Buzzer and the Sigil of Algari ... When i sim it on Dungeon Slice they are nearly the same .. But on wowhead the Sigil of Algari should be trash 😄
alpine wraith
well none of those are excepional
ideally you use a trinket like transmitter house of cards or the pvp trinket
then another passive one like pacemaker
slim chasm
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2LRwkde5EcDURuwm8USy97
Can someone please explain how this is downgrade?
Arent they the same trinket? both give me mastery on a 2 min cd ?
alpine wraith
well there is a fix on #tc-research and maybe they have pushed to latest or try nightly
daring agate
!wa
wicked joltBOT
west tide
time to do some pvp 🙂
signal heath
damn 4 pc is a big dmg inc huh
going into your middle of fight burst, do we wait for full stacks from flag before sending every thing... i know conditions with rupture apply and timings, just wondering how much a different in dmg it is if you just send all together or let flag tick first
tepid trellis
no you dont stack flag before hand
it just happens as you go
doesent take alot to stack it
signal heath
got you thanks
yea i still dont fully understand every thing but a good enough idea to be pumping decent, hype for next lockout to see how much i improved
edgy zenith
do we still have the extra raid buff or did they fix that?
also what change made it so it is worth playing around danse macabre now?
seems kinda random that it's a gain now compared to last patch
tepid trellis
it got added after they took away shadowdust iirc
edgy zenith
wait so we did have it last patch
i guess just more bursty so the 6% is better?
weird
also, it is WILD to me that it's not a gain to play around your 4set
tepid trellis
it was before they nerfed it to hell
edgy zenith
like there ain't no way I'm sending an evis 15s before flag
even if it's a "loss"
I don't believe it
tepid trellis
on "avg" it doesent matter
edgy zenith
like an unbuffed evis is like 1mil
there's no way the extra stacks don't add up to 1mil
alpine wraith
well it is a risk you take
hazy breach
Again, most of the time you dont lose them
alpine wraith
calculated lets say
edgy zenith
i don't have 4set yet, but sometimes I'm staring at my stacks at 8 right before my flag and I'm like do I REALLY want to risk this?
tepid trellis
well thats comparing it to 0 stacks
which dont happen
you will get stacks during it
rugged condor
If blades is ~20s from coming up we hold coup proc still yeah? And just bp
edgy zenith
If blades is ~20s from coming up we hold coup proc still yeah? And just bp
don't think so. just full send it
tepid trellis
If blades is ~20s from coming up we hold coup proc still yeah? And just bp
yeh around 20 sec
edgy zenith
wait we're BPing ST?
tepid trellis
its for flag tho
edgy zenith
actually?
hazy breach
Not really no
edgy zenith
so it's a gain to hold coup for flag and BP instead if flag is coming up?
but not enouigh to put in the guides
alpine wraith
it is not a huge win either but it is something you can do
alpine wraith
mostly neutral
keen trellis
It is in the guide, but its very minor optimization
tepid trellis
its like the same as backstab in dance
alpine wraith
0.2% a bit weaker iirc
edgy zenith
i mean, I'll take it.
alpine wraith
or 0.3 i dont remember but it does not happen that often
edgy zenith
i yearn for the small optimizations
swift tinsel
its in the wowhead guide
tepid trellis
double coup bursts feel nice tho
alpine wraith
havent done a side by side apl thingy for a while maybe with more gear now and tier set things are a bit more than 0.3
gleaming ice
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
stable viper
!wa
wicked joltBOT
tidal copper
Does Slice and Dice dropping actually happen at all? or can I just not track it
hazy breach
You can just skip tracking it ye
tidal copper
is there a need to track the two empowered CP at all?
tepid trellis
not if you have mental note of when you pressed SoD compared to when you pressing sectech
hazy breach
Not really, besides the small opt of making sure you have 2 of them up prepull
tidal copper
yeah i have another WA to remind me to get them after a death so they're up pre-pull
used to have to do stuff like that for WW so its an easy adaptation
late vine
fallen crescent
alpine wraith
on pull then at 3 mins etc
full viper
do we spread find weakness in aoe?
because with opener we never shuriken storm, except after CDs?
also, do we spread rupture?
lucid jackal
spread ruptures while gathering or after cds
full viper
and do we finish on 5cp? or only 6+?
lucid jackal
spread fw on 7 targets with 1 storm after sod
full viper
even during SD?
lucid jackal
6+
heady garden
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
final holly
Can I increase the volume of the shadow craft refund sound trigger?
twilit phoenix
i have my refund sound set to dreamybull bussing
warm depot
i change dit to the sword schwing so its hella loud lol
full wyvern
Mines the cash register cha Ching from Here Comes the Money
loud yew
are there any sub rogue m+ video guides that are relevant to the current patch?
alpine wraith
the full guide works for m+ but i also uploaded some runs no commentary tho
spark tusk
Can I increase the volume of the shadow craft refund sound trigger?
Not for an individual instance of a sound effect, no. The best you can do is adjust the channel.
Sounds in game are played on one of ~5 audio channels. In a WeakAura you can select the audio channel the sound plays on in the sound condition.
In your game settings you can adjust the relative volume of each of the channels.
final holly
Thank you
lucid jackal
to apply find weakness for black powder
Oh ur asking finisher logic
Uh, just because its more damage
oblique grove
Does feint also reduce healing absorbs
bleak night
Too bad they animations are lack
wdym i love farting purple on people
twilit phoenix
wdym i love farting purple on people
swift tinsel
Liquid takes the W
lilac stag
So did liquid
swift tinsel
lilac stag
@naive zodiac gz
tribal blade
that's actually insane
they took less pulls on gally than stix and mugzee
devs messed up big time
shut ridge
lilac stag
insane play on the kill
swift tinsel
Yeah that was wild
ornate heron
on huge pulls (like whole first room in workshop or cindrewbrew) i cant seem to get huge overall on sub and idk if im doing anything wrong or if that is just the shortcomings of the spec?
tribal blade
on huge pulls (like whole first room in workshop or cindrewbrew) i cant seem to ...
yes sub is not doing insane big pull dam
pretty mid
wicked urchin
wtf is that boss
lucid jackal
sark/xavius lol
wicked urchin
i didn't do Sark but that was significantly easier, no?
native zodiac
that is some crazy undertuned endboss
native zodiac
i didn't do Sark but that was significantly easier, no?
i doubt it
to put this into perspective their mage sini came in for 3 pulls
and killed this
lucid jackal
i didn't do Sark but that was significantly easier, no?
About the same
I think sark took most ppl like 80-120
native zodiac
they went from 25% to 0 in 5 pulls
twilit phoenix
insane
wicked urchin
to put this into perspective their mage sini came in for 3 pulls
gally being easier, not sark is what i meant
wicked urchin
actually tho
lucid jackal
lilac stag
It’s pretty
native zodiac
grats exile
wicked urchin
now imagine this boss with the raid buff 
paper iron
actual meme
u rock bro, just wanna say it, even if it s undertune and it looks terrible to have a raid clean that fast, u did the win
wicked urchin
my RWL guild is gonna get farm weeks lets gooooo
alpine wraith
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
barren marsh
I am so sad i don't want to play
paper iron
that s good
you can play healer rogue with intellect
F for you brother, you re not the first, not the last
bleak night
unlucky
short radish
nice we just killed gallywix
???? didn't know you joined liquid
bleak night
people posting int dagger crafts are what made me so paranoid
alpine wraith
our boi doing decent dmg at least
rocky ocean
Glad I got dagger from the first vault EZ
spice matrix
people posting int dagger crafts are what made me so paranoid
Yea I literally logged back in to check my dagger lol
pseudo fiber
Guys, the prized gladiators badge. is it worth grinding if i have neither transmitter nor house of cards?
somber tendon
Can you seriously not post a ticket and get some GM support for this? This is legitimately the shit that would make someone unsub and quit for the season
You’re just permanently behind 20 weapon iLvLs in your main hand unless you get a myth track dagger this week
vagrant sinew
Gms arent there to protect you from yourself
somber tendon
In vault or raid somehow
vagrant sinew
the ingame UI helps with it plenty
somber tendon
Gms arent there to protect you from yourself
Nah the game is literally built with fail safes because they know people make mistakes. That’s why you can recover deleted items directly on the website. Wake up lil guy lmao
vagrant sinew
yeah thats why you see a preview of what youre sending the crafting order out
and why you have to confirm when you buy stuff with currency from vendors
and that stuff doesnt get refunded
somber tendon
I’m tryna help that guy out
vagrant sinew
crafting system has been in the game for over 2 years, you dont get refunds on it
jaunty heath
W @naive zodiac (sorry for Ping im just Turbo hyped) deserved king 
upbeat sorrel
!up
wicked joltBOT
sterile kiln
Guys, the prized gladiators badge. is it worth grinding if i have neither trans...
yes
stable viper
!bs
wicked joltBOT
Backstab/Shadow Dance Macro:yaml #Showtooltip Shadow Dance /cast [bonusbar:1] Backstab; Shadow DanceThis will cast Shadow Dance on first key press and Backstab on second key press.
sour girder
best craft to spend 2nd spark?
native zodiac
best craft to spend 2nd spark?
necklace probs
every other slot you can technically get with vers mastery
lucid jackal
pvp for neck is gonna be better for now
Crafting a nerf for long term is a good idea tho
sour girder
Crafting a nerf for long term is a good idea tho
what is a nerf bro?
why are you here?? arent you supposed to be an outlaw?
lucid jackal
crafting a neck*
Neck is a good craft by endgame cuz theres really no alternative this tier
But just getting a pvp neck and crafting smthing like bracers/cape is a good idea
sour girder
But just getting a pvp neck and crafting smthing like bracers/cape is a good ide...
i dont do pvp :/
lucid jackal
Its 525 conquest for a very long term upgrade which takes like
Less than 10 2s wins
U can do like, 3 sets of daily wins in EBGs, BGs and the brawl and be done with it
but if u just dont even wanan do that then yeah probs craft a neck
hoary lotus
is there enough time to send cold blood between flag windows
or you just always hold for 2nd sectec
young mural
!up
wicked joltBOT
short radish
I’m tryna help that guy out
they wont refund
bleak night
xisevi crafted an agi polearm and gms didnt help
so i highly doubt they're gonna help this guy unfortunately
hoary lotus
It has to be like literally as it comes off cd
ya theres enough time, or ya you hold
hoary lotus
it doesn't seem to line up with sectech everytime so is it still worth to send on an evis or nah
lucid jackal
Probs literally but u can also just probs ignore it
Ive been just delaying that dance/sod slightly to lineup with cold blood as it comes up
clever delta
Damn this season is weird one
tribal blade
i was given a "kick rogue" in 12 priory
insert piratesoftware "what am i supposed to do"
spiral pewter
guyz how the flawless form is stucking on us? and also do we have to track and combine also try to match set bonus and flawless form as well as coup de grace? how is the playstyle between these keys?
naive zodiac
shoutout fuu/whispyr btw for helping me with rogue sims mid race 🐐
jaunty heath
brisk creek
how good is signet of the priory for sub rogue? i see its not listed under best trinkets but skardyns grace from last season is simming better than most trinkets on that list and its 30 ilvl down and basically the same as signet of the prioryh
brisk creek
which one is that?
fringe ruin
Hello. Very general question perhaps…. But looking into rogue. While I like the class, it also seems quite involved to actually play it well. So in that sense is subtlety difficult to pick up ? Or would perhaps assassination or outlaw better? Mainly looking for keys
fringe ruin
Ok thank you for the info!
brisk creek
Prized Gladiators Badge of Ferocity
god dam +57k on sim
u the man
good looks on the info
zenith hollow
do you swap to shuriken storm>bp over shadowstrike in dance on 7+ mobs otherwise its shadowstrike >evis?
spark tusk
During dance you use storm once for find weakness with the rotten, then always strike
bp takes over evis but you still strike
celest mulch
Hi, after reading the guide im a little confused about when to use secret technique during shadowdance. Is best as first or second finisher?
limpid sage
oo look at the key depelete protection
Wait can it never drop below 12 then?
tribal blade
Wait can it never drop below 12 then?
yes exactly
and then once i've timed all 13s it'll never deplete below 13
and so on and so forth
limpid sage
That’s pretty sick
tribal blade
not sure why they locked it behind IO that's unobtainable for the majority of players
warm marlin
and then once i've timed all 13s it'll never deplete below 13
what happens if you lower it to 10 then brick it you think
does it prevent it from bricking at all at 12 or lower
tribal blade
i think it'll just stay at 10
not exactly sure, don't really want to test it right now haha
maybe before reset
i'll see what happens
but this system basically makes a lot less homework situations for push teams
and this is a godsend for pugging
limpid sage
not sure why they locked it behind IO that's unobtainable for the majority of pl...
Oh it’s first at that key level it unlocks?
wild hornet
shoutout fuu/whispyr btw for helping me with rogue sims mid race 🐐
GGS
tribal blade
Oh it’s first at that key level it unlocks?
you have to time all 12s to unlock it
slate lantern
Hi, after reading the guide im a little confused about when to use secret techni...
First finisher
warm marlin
yea pugging its real good but I feel like in my experience in a group we very rarely bricked below a level where we already had all keys timed
tribal blade
the last 12 i timed was a cinderbrew, and then an npc at the chest gave me a quest
warm marlin
interesting to see if it will matter much
warm marlin
ya for sure
night rampart
how come we use strike over storm once find weakness has been applied on 7+?
warm marlin
the warriors out there braving it on their own
tribal blade
Will matter for people that push keys solo
it'll matter more for people who push solo
because when you run your own key with lfg it gets inted all the time
limpid sage
Anyone know if it's best to send PvP trinket on shadow dance usage or always sync it with blades?
slate lantern
Anyone know if it's best to send PvP trinket on shadow dance usage or always syn...
Set it to blades
The important thing is to hit both sectecs in the shadow blades window with the trinket up
limpid sage
ye I guess that's true
cyan quiver
Hello, is sub rogue will stay better than assa in high keys level ?
tulip gorge
Wait until tuning
dry dune
how much haste do you guys have?
young mural
slate lantern
how much haste do you guys have?
Hopefully negative
dry dune
Have 2% and dunno if that is ok or overkill 😄
hollow spear
If you don't have 0 haste you might as well play sin
Jk, tier set gives you haste so it's impossible to go to 0
spark plover
how much haste do you guys have?
670 from the set head, 760 from the circle
weary crag
I got the 5.3k haste neck from one of the bosses
so probably more than i should
Thinking of crafting a vers mastery one
hollow spear
Do you have hoc?
jolly pasture
Thinking of crafting a vers mastery one
neck craft is goated honestly
kina slept on considering we dont really have a good neck
jolly pasture
dagger neck atm i think is best
because other slots are a lot easier to fill with good items
cleft neck was simming as big downgrade for me, i guess you need more ver/mast from other pieces for that to become bis, and even then its a vault item bis so gl with that
dry dune
What is the best order of "opener" mid fight? When all CDs are ready, should I use same opener as in guides (but don´t use rupture after flag if there is still time remaining)
frosty thunder
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
shy ermine
cleft neck was simming as big downgrade for me, i guess you need more ver/mast f...
Yeah I was thinking this, it’s likely house of cards changes things as it gives mastery instead of agi during your cds
My 658 crit vers neck is worse than 639 from last tier
shy ermine
We’ve seen 1 across all difficulties so far and I’m low down on the list
jolly pasture
every possible upgrade i have in raid
is bigger on someone
sub scaling with gear is trash
shy ermine
Yeah that’s been the case for years
jolly pasture
we cleared full hc norm twice and mythic first twice i have 0 raid items equiped
shy ermine
I got 2 heroic tier pieces and mythic shoulders to catalyse
jolly pasture
unorinically if i dont get hoc from vault im psure im getting my hoc when the dinar comes out
and by then sin will probably get buffed and we will play sin with signet for prog xd
shy ermine
I know talking about scaling is a bit of a meme but it does happen every tier
They could buff our mastery and give an aura nerf to compensate
jaunty heath
unorinically if i dont get hoc from vault im psure im getting my hoc when the di...
Just be like me and tell your guild you can’t farm another trinket in keys while all other contenders can
cerulean stream
!up
wicked joltBOT
jolly pasture
Just be like me and tell your guild you can’t farm another trinket in keys while...
thats not true
plenty of other classes cant use 2 min either
monk dk for sure need hoc and cant use signet, and iirc some casters too
wild vine
kina slept on considering we dont really have a good neck
ye, cloak and boots have decent options
stats also more important on neck
severe vapor
The loot itemisation this tier does seem a little kaka
jolly pasture
how long does it take to farm the pvp trinket?
its -2k for me but no -QOL of transmitter
fierce ivy
not that long. I farmed neck + an extra piece + two sockets for the neck in half a day just spamming BGs. Got the conquest from the ashran and thousand winter quests you get in the BG and the daily win bonus. Was done in a half-day
if it's just the trinket might be faster to queue arenas, if you have some PvP xp. Otherwise I would just vibe around in BGs
jolly pasture
i hate pvp and have no exp so no arenas
but i hate trashmitter more than pvp possibly
weary crag
!wa
wicked joltBOT
clever delta
Btw did imexile make it to "details" on gallawix kill?
Did not have time to watch any pulls as it dies so fast
lilac stag
10th overall ish. Don’t recall exact place
clever delta
Damn
I though gallwix would be perfect for us
Rogue really struggle on hard bosses this seaspn
Heroic raid blasters tho
jolly pasture
Dw rogue will be fine after upcoming sin buffs
weary crag
u guys think sin will pull ahead again?
bleak night
I though gallwix would be perfect for us
i think its a pretty good rogue boss, the problem is just its an even better mage and ww boss lmao
amber blaze
guys if i focus more on m+, is it still better to run lense embelishment still?
lilac stag
It’s more ST dmg in m+ which is more than fine. The difference overall isn’t worth worrying about.
weary crag
i feel like sin will pull ahead on some bosses for sure
too much movement going on to perfect the rotation on some fights in this raid
lilac stag
Rogue really struggle on hard bosses this seaspn
Tuning wise rogue is behind. It has been since ptr. Being 400k plus behind in sims is relevant when your burst dmg isn’t as impactful as it has been in the past.
Nothing new. Shine in heroic week. Mid in mythic.
wait for tuning.
void ocean
hoary sun
We ain't getting buffed lil pup
weary crag
blizzard for whatever reason
wants the most simple spec to be the best
assasination
jaunty heath
monk dk for sure need hoc and cant use signet, and iirc some casters too
Guess what we don’t have a dk and monk isn’t performing 
We do have a dk but
You’d rather give it to rogue atm probably
Even if his increase is bigger
Not very hot at the minute
lilac stag
They already did tunning and nerfed us twice
The tuning was more moving dmg out of burst. Rogue Sims from ptr were all lower than other classes. Assa got brought up to the other two specs. The class is tuned low, if sub gets adjusted again who knows.
You can tell by the chatter in here many of the fotm chasers moved back to one of the others.
jolly pasture
why does it always feel like rogue is nerfed too early and then just stays undertuned
they seem to always forget we dont benefit as much from gear as others
tribal blade
blizz in recent years has not cared very much about sub as a spec
molten citrus
tribal blade
i'm starting to see myself get gapped in content now
weary crag
the gameplay is basically the same as the last time i played which was bfa first raid tier
with some more cds
etc
which I dont mind I love sub
lilac stag
i'm starting to see myself get gapped in content now
I brought up the concerns of the gap. “We’re fine” was the response. 
weary crag
but it would be sad to see assas pull through as the better spec again
when its so simple
tribal blade
I brought up the concerns of the gap. “We’re fine” was the response. <:omegalul:...
yeah i remember, i had a feeling this would happen too
sub is not exactly down bad right now, it's just not that great
weary crag
tbh its fine
i think the fights are just really hard to play sub correctly on
and assasin pulls ahead in high keys m+
tribal blade
i was thinking about trying out sin in keys tbh
sub is really good at some things in M+, but when there's big aoe dam that's required we're not doing so hot
places like cinderbrew
where you want big aoe dam the entire key pretty much
jolly pasture
when its so simple
i dont think simplicity is its problem
theres simple specs that are still kinda fun
lilac stag
It’s fun. It’s dmg in these fights isn’t exactly good. Where our burst would be useful it doesn’t necessarily seem to be the case.
Went in blind on H mugs. Assigned to prisons. Timings just feel bad. Tested assa twice and stuff lined up better.
jolly pasture
sin is just boring af
dusty totem
cindebrew first pull feels so bad when u have a warlock doing 2x ur dmg
tribal blade
the main issue once again is sub isn't doing enough damage in cds (in aoe most) to warrant the downtime
lilac stag
yup
tribal blade
sub can do on par aoe burst with other specs
dusty totem
Yeah we get gapped when the pack lives long
tribal blade
but then the huge problem is you go into downtime and you're doing less than tank damage
lilac stag
you also really want a shaman
tribal blade
so in reality they should not have nerfed sub's 4 set and sectec dmg
dusty totem
Yeah they should have kept the tier set as is but given the aura buff (coping hard here i know)
lilac stag
they would have after heroic clears
tribal blade
we could maybe see sub buffs who knows, but i doubt it
jolly pasture
nah they are gonna buff sin instead
lilac stag
CT & BP buffs for everyone
they’ll buff Assa & Sub DS. At that point I rather play Assa.
dusty totem
BP buff would be kinda nice tbh right now switching to BP does not feel very satisfiying
jolly pasture
honestly they should just uncap outlaw
tribal blade
looks like outlaw is very ahead in mythic
sin is ahead of sub
sub is actually the worst performing rogue raid spec atm looks like
tribal blade
true it's very hard to say, we don't ahve much data
jolly pasture
but besides stix honestly tier doesnt look bad for outlaw
jolly pasture
need more data tho but maybe i get to prog on outlaw finally? 
keen dome
Man, this season owns for M+
I'm almost 2.5k, half my portals done in week 2 of the season
lilac stag
All the outlaw enjoyers outing themselves this morning.
jolly pasture
my blue name is only because is what i picked by accident when i joined RH
always been outlaw main
never could play outlaw seriously
the story of outlaw mains
keen dome
oh, not same then
jolly pasture
so ive only been playing the spec i want during farm, and always with shit gear ofc
pretty much i get the cantrip mainhander 1-2 weeks before new season launches every time
tepid trellis
nerf outlaw
keen dome
give sub the gun
void hound
give me the gun, i cant take it anymore seeing this class balancing
jolly pasture
nerf outlaw
outlaw isnt a problem
sin is
they keep propping up sin and forget the other 2 perma
lilac stag
Sub Temu fire mages.
tepid trellis
outlaw isnt a problem
nerf outlaw
ashen agate
!wa
wicked joltBOT
lilac stag
outlaw isnt a problem
You’re fighting the wrong fight in this channel. Any actual sub mains want nothing to do with that abomination of a rogue spec.
If people enjoy it, great. We are not them.
jolly pasture
sub is close second to outlaw for me, just not sin, sin is the abomination
being benched is more fun than playing sin
tepid trellis
id rather play assa for 6 months straight than 10min as outlaw
tribal blade
so what are the chances blizz makes next tier's end boss turbo nuclear difficulty
to make up for this race
jolly pasture
id rather play assa for 6 months straight than 10min as outlaw
what about outlaw you dont like
keen dome
Final tier, too. So probably a solid 90%
lilac stag
so what are the chances blizz makes next tier's end boss turbo nuclear difficult...
If there’s a holiday in the middle of it 100%
jolly pasture
i guess the speed of it, since you like sin more and they are kinda polar opposites
keen dome
Getting summoned to the horde entrance of ML is a very "uuuuuh... oh no"
tribal blade
Getting summoned to the horde entrance of ML is a very "uuuuuh... oh no"
the portal goes there too for some reason
jolly pasture
ironically i kinda enjoyed sin before DF rework
keen dome
the portal goes there too for some reason
goes to alliance for me
tepid trellis
what about outlaw you dont like
Its a rogue spec that feels nothing like rogue or plays nothing like rogue, energy class being global locked is not it
jolly pasture
rework made is so much worse somehow
tribal blade
ironically outlaw is the spec that most people who don't main rogue seem to like the most
it's the spec everyone's always asking me about
void hound
outlaw is the rogue spec that plays the most like other classes
that makes it appealing to newcomer
jolly pasture
idk i dont have a set idea of what rogue supposed to feel like
wide rover
what do you craft with second spark?
blazing creek
hi guys 🙂
could someone review my logs why my ilvl parses are so bad?
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/2j16cwKmTkBy7RQP?fight=67&type=damage-done&source=1
i try to learn sub but i cant perform good on that spec
jolly pasture
they changed the game so much no class is what it used to be back in the day
tepid trellis
ironically outlaw is the spec that most people who don't main rogue seem to like...
ive played rogue for too long to ever like what outlaw is
tribal blade
ive played rogue for too long to ever like what outlaw is
me too dude
tribal blade
idk i dont have a set idea of what rogue supposed to feel like
i think wod sub is a pretty classic example of perfect rogue design
or close to perfect
a lot of people gravitate to that
void hound
hi guys 🙂
could someone review my logs why my ilvl parses are so bad?
https:/...
i recommend practicing the burst rotation at the dummy
wide rover
i liked beginning SL sub
jolly pasture
you guys must have hated pre rework sub in abberus then because it legit was gcd locked
vague dragon
i recommend practicing the burst rotation at the dummy
u lost premeditation buff with ur openers
jolly pasture
i think wod sub is a pretty classic example of perfect rogue design
yeah idk thats so long ago
no class plays like it did back then
they have classic for that type of playstyle
tribal blade
that was not a classic type rotation
void hound
i agree
void hound
the foundation we have is pretty good i think
tribal blade
and that's where you did all your damage
void hound
its a shame we have to deal with so many bugs all the time and most talents being unplayable
tribal blade
i'm now wishing they would fix rotten
hollow spear
Which bug? The one where storm consumes both stacks?
tribal blade
Which bug? The one where storm consumes both stacks?
yeah that one
swift tinsel
Idk if I’d rather see them return dance to fixed cd or slightly increase the cdr from deepening
jolly pasture
bro i love outlaw but even for me cdr on sub doesnt fit
hollow spear
Would probably help people get into the spec
jolly pasture
maybe keep it on sectec so it doesnt have charges but dance 30 or 45 sec cd would be great
swift tinsel
If they go back to fixed cd I think reworking flag/blades/cb would help
hollow spear
Apart of not being able to execute flag burst, that's probably the biggest reason for low dps on sub
swift tinsel
45 sec dance cd might be nice
jolly pasture
yeah nice small burst between big bursts
swift tinsel
Have blades grant dance for duration
hollow spear
I see so many fumbled flag bursts in the log reviews, I refuse to accept that people have actually read the guides
tribal blade
feels like dance should be fixed cd and keep sectec the same
jolly pasture
ofc theres a risk of spec becoming too static like sin
wide rover
What do we craft after weapon?
tribal blade
you're just being inted by not being able to maintain uptime with dance cdr
swift tinsel
Yeah
void hound
id be strongly opposed a fixed dance cd
swift tinsel
Agreed
void hound
cause managing your resources is the fun part
since energy has been made obsolete as something that needs to be managed
i dread the day sub plays like assa pressing every button at the same time every pull
hollow spear
Just make sectec static and reset with dancd
swift tinsel
Only within burst windows
tribal blade
not sure that a spell you can't send on cd needs to work off cdr
swift tinsel
Outside you aren’t gcd locked
void hound
not sure that a spell you can't send on cd needs to work off cdr
last tier you could squeeze in extra sec tecs if you knew what you were doing
it was great
hollow spear
After you've learned when to send dances you're kind of playing almost a set cd rotation anyways, no?
tribal blade
but dance nah
void hound
After you've learned when to send dances you're kind of playing almost a set cd ...
yes, its mostly static
however cdr allowed for some moments of improvisation which i found very enjoyable
tribal blade
After you've learned when to send dances you're kind of playing almost a set cd ...
pretty much yes
hollow spear
Yeah true
hollow spear
But I think that comes also from having stacks
tribal blade
usually a spell working off cdr is "if i play well i get more casts of this spell"
which is cool
void hound
both do
hollow spear
I kinda disagree
Cdr mostly punishes you
If you get mechanics
There's no real reward
Besides mega storming on adds
lilac stag
CDR is punishment for losing uptime.
Stacks gives you choice. Players generally enjoy having charges on a cd. Many of the specs have had this added over time.
void hound
yeah cdr can be punishing i agree
i think cdr for sub is important cause otherwise you could literally afk outside of cds and it wouldnt matter
tribal blade
i think the difference is for other specs it's more like "it took me longer to get the spell off cd to fire again"
but for sub it's "i can't cdr fast enough and now my entire rotation is borked"
lilac stag
trying to fit cds on silken depending on uptime was fun
void hound
trying to fit cds on silken depending on uptime was *fun*
yes!
lilac stag
Sarcasm
void hound
oh 😔
lilac stag
red side sub was misery trying to get CDR back
jaunty heath
I mean only issue with cb is it’s not a very cool spell
Besides that
Don’t mind secret tech
Cb*
orchid sand
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
lilac stag
Surely we get a rework for 11.1.5 on May 20th. 
jaunty heath
I mean to be honest sub plays really good rn, I’m having a blast
swift tinsel
If it happens before 13.0 I’ll be amazed
lilac stag
it’s fun until you remove trickster
jaunty heath
Yeah
swift tinsel
Yep
lilac stag
which is a problem
jaunty heath
I wouldn’t mind DS if it wasn’t bugged honestly
swift tinsel
The moment we have to switch to ds everything falls apart
After playing so much trickster I don’t think I could enjoy deathstalker, even with bug fixes
The gameplay of trickster is what I want sub to be baseline
Or something close
glacial basin
grand galleon
guys, can somebody give me TLDR when do I actually use black powder and shuriken? I understand shuriken 3+ targets when outside of shadow dance, but do we use any of those spells in shadowdance at all?
keen dome
After playing so much trickster I don’t think I could enjoy deathstalker, even w...
trickster just feels good
tough glacier
only use shuriken to apply weakness to multiple targets, after that use shadowstrike. black powder you use on 7+ targets as finisher
swift tinsel
100%, ds just feels so slow in cooldowns by comparison
stoic lark
!wa
wicked joltBOT
tough glacier
anyone have a macro that uses shadowstrike or backstab depending on if im in stealth or not?
keen dome
I love MOtherlode. Best dungeon. Funniest dungeon.
swift tinsel
guys, can somebody give me TLDR when do I actually use black powder and shuriken...
Storm once as second builder in dance once at 7+ targets, and use black powder as finisher at same target threshold
lilac stag
anyone have a macro that uses shadowstrike or backstab depending on if im in ste...
The game does this for you
slender trail
anyone have a macro that uses shadowstrike or backstab depending on if im in ste...
It auto changes to the correct spell based on stance. But I’ve seen this floating around..
#showtooltip Shadowstrike
/cast [bonusbar:1] Shadowstrike; Backstab
keen dome
I hit 2.5k. Good season. 10/10. Now I can go outside for a bit.
lilac stag
I need to run keys still. This week been a mess outside of wow so rip playing outside of raid
keen dome
Sub is extremely fun to play in keys this season. I think it's the best it's felt?
vale pine
oh wow, gallywix rly fits the stereotype of his personality
lilac stag
part of me thinks there’s some underlining political joke with gally falling over so easily and the current president of the states. Could just be my own head cannon.
keen dome
Would've been funny if the joke was he had an over-engineered mega-death machine and it just collapses under it's own weight on mythic
As he keeps adding more bits to it
slender trail
part of me thinks there’s some underlining political joke with gally falling ove...
I was thinking the same thing… there have been several instances where my mind immediately went political.
There was a quest in this campaign where you had to disrupt some of the goblins, and talking to them - they wanted a debate and would get mad if you ignored them.
keen dome
lmao those ones are hilariously on the nose. Some good writing
If you walk away from them they go "Wait, you are meant to debate me!"
lilac stag
for the lulz. using sub gear and 658 thumb
vale pine
Realistically, it seemed like something was wrong with the encounter
blizz did tune a lot of background spells it seemed over the last days but neither rly does anything
makes it seem like the encounter should have had a phase or mechanics triggering that just never did
tribal blade
everyone was expecting something crazy to happen like the platform breaking away
but nothing happened
vale pine
It felt a bit anticlimatic, last boss just falling over with the many bugs both rwf teams had to deal with to kill other bosses
but could be just my personal position on it
tribal blade
my guild experienced this before getting HoF with jailer
slender trail
Realistically, it seemed like something was wrong with the encounter
How wild would it be if the encounter was bugged/broken for liquid and the secret phase/mechanic occurs for everyone else?
The conspiracy theories would FLOW
tribal blade
after they nerfed the boss we just speed ran P3 in a few pulls and killed it
lilac stag
I think they played extremely well. Maybe community set itself up with the secret phase copium
tribal blade
and nobody felt good about the kill lol
vale pine
How wild would it be if the encounter was bugged/broken for liquid and the secre...
echo already has the boss on 6% after 40 pulls
so don't think we will see anything happen
lilac stag
not surprising after they could just watch liquid strat
vale pine
just is now about echo not tilting and it will fall soon
tribal blade
it's just more so the boss is way too easy for an end boss
vale pine
for them
lilac stag
it's just more so the boss is way too easy for an end boss
As you stack 5 monks and 4 mages.
slender trail
I think they played extremely well. Maybe community set itself up with the secre...
This is so true.
The amount of hype around it didn’t really align with this result lol
tribal blade
As you stack 5 monks and 4 mages. <:omegalul:585734084777476096>
incredibly disgusting
vale pine
mugzee also seemed
tribal blade
mugzee at least was somewhat hard
lilac stag
I’m more disappointed that sub’s burst isn’t really a need in the tier
the raid is fun
vale pine
i did not watch much of the mugzee pulls, so can't say how much the pull count got inflated by bugs
hazy breach
A bit
slender trail
It was pretty rough.
lilac stag
Liquid had at least 30 wipes to the bomb bug
tribal blade
it was harder for my guild to prog mugzee than gally
we killed heroic gally tonight in half a night of prog
tribal blade
nuts
lilac stag
We got mugz to 15 million health. At that point I wish I had swapped to assa.
tribal blade
should be 4 times the pull count
hazy breach
Idk should it
Maybe blizzards intent was for the raid to be easier, since people were talking about how nerubar was too hard
vale pine
this would be true if the raid was not tuned around the rwf
but if it wasn't we would have each boss fall in less than 50 pulls
tribal blade
Maybe blizzards intent was for the raid to be easier, since people were talking ...
could be for sure
lilac stag
I still don’t understand your point fuu
vale pine
the point is
if blizz wants bosses in general to be easier so people would not get stuck
other fights in the raid would be easier too
not just the last boss
molten citrus
I still don’t understand your point fuu
if they didn't tune the bosses for the rwf and instead tuned them for the masses from the start, the rwf would kill them all in ~50 pulls etc
at least thats what i understood
young trench
i dont mind that at all tbh
tribal blade
this whole situation is good for the kind of guild i'm in
where we know we're not going to be in eternal suffering
lilac stag
There are two sticking points and one slightly undertuned boss (or are the stacked specs overtuned making the optics worse). Idk. Combo of both.
For my CE guild the optics are we have a carrot we can actually get without insane nerfs in 2 months.
For those that care, the race to HoF maybe a bit more interesting now.
clever delta
Maybe blizzards intent was for the raid to be easier, since people were talking ...
The stacking buffs make raid little bit joke later on so every guild can get their CE if they wanted in the end
With laid back approach
hollow spear
Class stacking got quite out of hand imo
Maybe they at least noticed how op ww and mage are
clever delta
Poor dk
paper rock
Who here said rogue was fine yesterday?
clever delta
Wasn't even in
paper rock
clever delta
Everyone keep coping that rogue is fine
paper rock
I was told I made shit up by.. a certain person yesterday for saying rogue's dogshit lmao
You guys do be funny
clever delta
We weren't fine at ptr either
hazy breach
Saying rogue is the worst class in the game right now is PEAK class discord
swift tinsel
Is that a case of rogues being bad or others being overtuned/better profile for the fight
modest river
is this the dk discord?
oak rune
Second worst
clever delta
If we take i considerion hard bosswa
hazy breach
Also posting boss damagew when he is sending dances on adds 
clever delta
Wee wooo
hollow spear
I'm just having fun memeing guy 😦
molten citrus
swift tinsel
Fuu do you still have the Homer Simpson gif of sappucino saying sub is doomed
paper rock
I think if they nerf the outliers
I agree yeah, nerf every other class
hollow spear
Wdym every
clever delta
But kush playing DH all ptr a doing emergency 10 dhs before season maybe was tell
paper rock
Other than dk
hollow spear
Cringe take imo
swift tinsel
How often do rwf players only prep one class
modest river
@paper rock hows things btw
molten citrus
How often do rwf players only prep one class
depends on the player i think
swift tinsel
Right, unless they’re a diff-level one trick you’re gonna have more than one class jic
hollow spear
To me it looked like kush had about a 50/50 split between rogue and dh
tardy solar
lorgok used to be that one trick guy
clever delta
They need another WW rather tho 😄
swift tinsel
If they nerf ww one of ours is gonna have a meltdown
clever delta
They should let wws lives their dream for once
oak rune
Do they always do class adjustment immediately after last boss kill?
halcyon coral
Ww guaranteed nerf
Whys that? Enhance shaman did this for a long time last season
I think they will leave it be
oak rune
I think they tried to nerf enh they just fucked up
clever delta
Yeah they just swapped to tot3ms
halcyon coral
Tote it and pass it
tardy solar
would be surprised not to see adjustments in the coming reset
halcyon coral
Doesn't seem required though
lilac stag
Everyone keep coping that rogue is fine
Not everyone. But I’m just a doomer. 💀
halcyon coral
Echo wasn't using
halcyon coral
I actually think this is closest they got to balancing in a while
jaunty heath
But you can’t sit here and say it’s good either
lilac stag
Nah rogue isn’t amazing
It’s mid at best in mythic.
halcyon coral
Oh I was referring to Windwalker
I'm a fan of boosting the weaker ones over nerfing the stronger ones
hazy breach
Some people here equate fine = the best
jaunty heath
Windwalker is also insane
hazy breach
Rogue is definitely fine
jaunty heath
Yeah no rogue is fine
halcyon coral
I'm looking at the meters from every kill
jaunty heath
Its not good tho
halcyon coral
Looks like there is representation throughout the raid
oak rune
Rogue is crazy mid
hazy breach
Idk whats your definition of good