subtlety

[tepid trellis]

and it has never been an outlaw season

and it isnt changing

until they rework it

[round latch]

outlaw needs to be dissected and given an identity,spec is complete @ss atm

[upper plinth]

Rememer Guys, Outlaw is the Dungeon spec

[hidden isle]

wasnt there a time in bfa where outlaw was top?

[tepid trellis]

in raid

never

[hidden isle]

with keep ur wits

[rugged condor]

If only dungeons were 8 or less mobs xd

[obtuse osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/copium-cat-gif-27161395

[tepid trellis]

only ever been good at m+

[upper plinth]

And then they capped it

[round latch]

for raids never,as stealthi said.In bfa is was very strong yes

[upper plinth]

And removed acro

[tepid trellis]

had nothing to do with those 2 things lol

[hidden isle]

idk, my only complaint with outlaw has been getting invites 🙂 .... and acro being removed

[tepid trellis]

they took away stuff that made outlaw's AoE rediculous

[upper plinth]

But sure aint helped

[tepid trellis]

wits got removed, rolls actually mattering for your dmg, so you fished for the right ones

Ace + Deadshot azerite traits making PS and BTE hit like a freight train

[upper plinth]

Kinda dont Want constant rerolling back

[hidden isle]

oh ya deadshot azerite trait

good times

[tepid trellis]

You werent global locked 24/7

so your abilties could actually pack a punch

instead of doing mosquito dmg

[upper plinth]

Yeah the Pirate needs some help

[dry plank]

Dw guys 3 more sin buffs and 2 DS buff incoming

And another BP buff and we are gucci

[clever delta]

Are we dead

[round latch]

bold to assume there will be anymore buffs

[misty condor]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[clever delta]

I guess we were such a outliner that we needed second nerf

[woeful rain]

Surely no more sub nerfs and assa buffs 🙏

[rain stratus]

What nerfs did we receive?

[small epoch]

Id be ok with just no more sin buffs

[round latch]

whatever u do

dont click on the pins

[round latch]

thats very weak resolve

[rain stratus]

Itll probably end up another Sin tier lmao

[round latch]

ye sub will take over

easy

[plush roost]

Last 3 bosses were pretty important on execute so it could very well have been a sin tier anyway

[dry badger]

Idk what to focus at this point lol

[alpine wraith]

focus on getting big crits

[dry badger]

But as sub or sin?

[plush roost]

Yes

You can just gear for crit/mast/verse and be okay

[alpine wraith]

both

sin does care about stats

and sub does not care as long as its not haste

so as long as you dont care about outlaw

just avoid haste and chill

[plush roost]

Yeah, and once you're more set on what you're playing, can always recraft your crafted pieces into crit/haste or haste/mast for sin, and mast/verse for sub

Or whatever the robot deems best ofc

[round latch]

build sub stats=>play both if needed

[dry badger]

Wowhead best resource for rotations/ builds?

[round latch]

sin doesnt care

yeah wowhead is very good

[dry badger]

Awesome, thanks guys

[round latch]

yw fam

[plush roost]

I mean to min/max sin does care but not like outlaw cares

[round latch]

sin doesnt care

[rain stratus]

Doesnt Trickster kind alike crit anyway

So it aint too bad

Kinda insane that they tuned based on numbers this week though, with no new gear aquired yet. They must have had the data on tiersets and shouldve have known already no?

[clever delta]

Nobody know what th3y are doing

They are just doing their stuff

There is likely be one more tunning pass before release of raid

[honest saddle]

I think if you would have told me, hey were gonna nerf you by 2% and were gonna nerf the five class closest to you in terms of damage by more than you... I would take the change

I think this set of nerfs makes us stronger in raid...

[rain stratus]

That's fair, Sin is just slowly creeping up, and considering the execute on the last three, it might have to happen

[honest saddle]

Like sin needed literally 10%

They got 4%

Still abysmal

Unfort

Maybe good with execution being long

[clever delta]

Did they need 10 tho

Based on what

[vestal escarp]

https://tenor.com/view/rdj-robert-downey-jr-robertdowneyjr-comiccon-comic-con-gif-7809489789909776017

It's over

It didnt even last a week

[honest saddle]

If you look at 11.1 raid logs, and extrapolate

They were 12% behind

[clever delta]

They keep nerfing tier set so we don't need to track it, very nice if them

Of

[honest saddle]

Obviously with gear and new raid and tier, that changes things, but the reality is if they were 12% behind this week, they will be 12% next week

Nothing changes

[clever delta]

Fights longer

[honest saddle]

Thats true

[clever delta]

Meanwhile 11.1 fights even shorter

But idk

I guess we will have to see on Wednesday what's hp

Up

I don't even know what's those ring nerfs means to us

[honest saddle]

How much was the ring nerf?

[clever delta]

There is wording rather than numbers

[honest saddle]

It might mean we replace with a heroic item level ring instead of at mythic

[alpine wraith]

it is a nerf to a strat and also makes it weaker if whole raid stacks it

and no it wont change replacint it

and you would not replace it anyway

the things it procs are too good

[clever delta]

Hacha can you say we are fine so I go back to work

[alpine wraith]

we are fine trust

[clever delta]

[honest saddle]

Im pretty sure, we are more than fine

I think, cautiously, we may be good

[vestal escarp]

Sin season

[honest saddle]

That's it. Nike said it

Confirmed

[azure ember]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[crystal blaze]

[haughty mural]

Waking up to new pins

Oh

[glass jasper]

Is raidbots updated for new hotfixes?

[hollow spear]

Where do I even find the hotfixes?

[glass jasper]

https://www.wowhead.com/blue-tracker/topic/eu/class-tuning-incoming-march-5-563711

[hollow spear]

Thanks

They didn't change too many other classes it seems

Kinda hilarious that we caught a nerf

[glass jasper]

Yea it's interresting we get a nerf, and BM gets a buff

I guess they know stuff we dont

😄

[hollow spear]

My hope is that, by the time our scaling problems get revealed, there's more hotfixes

We should still perform decently the first week or two just be cause of baseline and tier set

That's my copium

[rain stratus]

We are alle playing Sin by the end of progression mate, sorry to be the bearer of bad news 😦

[glass jasper]

Yea looks that way

My interpretation of this is basically "We are reworking sub next tier or next expansion and don't want people to get too invested in the spec right before we remake it, play assa or outlaw until sub is remade"

[hollow spear]

Don't think so at all

[honest saddle]

I mean they literally nerfed the other 5 specs that were top near us

And they got nerfed more than us

[hollow spear]

Sin won't catch up to sub with these changes afaik

But imma wait for sims

[honest saddle]

Arms, enhance, dh got the hammer as well.

[rain stratus]

Not on a straight up fight, but with the amount and length of execute on the last 3, it might be a better suiter for those fights specifically

[hollow spear]

Maybe we're getting rid of all the fotm rerollers now

[hollow snow]

Pretty sure bm was above us and still got buffed

[golden kelp]

I could imagine it being decent on first now too in comparison, since everyone seems to aim to phase at 2 min anyway

[hollow spear]

This channel reminded me of the sin channel in 11.0.5 lately

[random comet]

Sub would be a wild spec to fotm reroll

[tribal blade]

sub def not a spec to reroll to on a whim

[honest saddle]

I guess I don't understand how longer execute makes an execute class better unless the last 35% takes longer than the first 65% proportionally

[hollow spear]

Well, takes a while to notice tho

[tribal blade]

i've heard a lot of horror stories from people in the lower brackets of gameplay not being able to play sub

[hollow spear]

Yeah, but they look at sims and just swap without thinking much

To then suck and swap back

[quick swan]

Even going from Sin to Sub after a long time is quite jarring

[tribal blade]

any time you can't just send stuff on cd the spec becomes way harder

[hollow spear]

Happened in other mmos I played too, just a mmo thing

It's less of a mechanics than a planning/feel issue

[umbral relic]

Do we have any informations behind the choices they make on our spec?
I see some class have always commentaries when some modifications happens, but for us there’s nothing

[honest saddle]

We just did a lot of damage in raid this week

Like a LOT

So they felt it needed a small touch

[tribal blade]

true we were blasting

[glass jasper]

Sounds strange that they would balance next tier based on current tier with current set, and for sectec especially, since we all have "Rogue Subtlety 11.0 Class Set 2pc - Symbols of Death increases the damage of your next Secret Technique by 20%." at the moment

[tribal blade]

the devs have had a tendency with sub to not have good communication after the DF rework

[glass jasper]

Weird balance decision if that is the case

[umbral relic]

Yeah I come from classic, but i realised that in retail every class have it’s own balance person, I’m curious about who is it

[hollow snow]

Realz why

[glass jasper]

"Sectec has alot of damage now because of the current set bonus, lets nerf it then remove the set bonus" 😄

#logics

[honest saddle]

I don't think each class has it's own balance person

They have a dev

But a balance "team"

[keen dome]

MY BIG CRITS

[tribal blade]

i think the logic is our next tier set also buffs sectec

[hollow snow]

I wish we knew how they come to those conclusions

[umbral relic]

I wan’t Mike Tyson as our dev

Or the mountain

[honest saddle]

I think sub needs a buff

[hollow snow]

Warrior would be broken

If Mike Tyson was a dev

[honest saddle]

yEs SiR mR. tYsOn

[hollow spear]

Next tier set performs better than this tier set

[hollow snow]

I think Luigi mangioni should be rogue dev

[lucid jackal]

U think so?

[keen dome]

I should be the rogue dev

[hollow spear]

At ilvl parity

[umbral relic]

Omg

[keen dome]

Posion toggle. I have dreams

[hollow snow]

Free Luigi btw

[honest saddle]

That was me pretending to be Mike Tyson the dev

[hollow snow]

True rogue

[umbral relic]

Finally an healthy spec

[lucid jackal]

Ah I see

My bad

[honest saddle]

You wanna argue with me

Im mike tyson

Ill hurt you bad

[hollow snow]

Hi Guy

[hollow spear]

Everyone has a plan until they get hit in the mouth

[honest saddle]

Yuhp

[hollow snow]

Guy tell him to hold ur nuts

[honest saddle]

Guy wants to catch these mike tyson hands

[hollow spear]

Why are you on a holy crusade to make rogue look strong, Guy?

[honest saddle]

What if... And hear me out my dudes... Mike Tyson IS the mage dev

Everything makes sense now

[night sparrow]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[quick swan]

Cuz if we are a too strong we get destroyed, hes playing the long con

[hollow spear]

Are you just not considering ptr testing and sim results as valid data?

[hollow snow]

How can Mike Tyson be mage dev

If he don't have arcane intellect irl

5head

[honest saddle]

Shots fired

[hollow snow]

He's bm dev

Smh

[umbral relic]

I don’t want rogue to be strong
I want cd window to deal 100 000 000 000 000 dps
And offcd to deal 0 dps

[glass jasper]

Most likely, "Hunter fun, make stronk"

[hollow snow]

Bind kill command to space bar

gg

[honest saddle]

No no, rob gronkowski is bm dev

[hollow snow]

Nah bro gronk is ret

[honest saddle]

Ret mad, ret smash, ret hit keys hardddd

[hollow snow]

Elon is mage

Belief me

Luigi is rogue

Bin laden is outlaw

[keen dome]

If i was the Sub dev, I would make a posion toggle. I would give us the Kyveza animations. I would let us use non-daggers in the OH. I would make shadowstep make a clown noise. I'd be the best dev.

[hollow snow]

That's why they don't get changes

[glass jasper]

I understand the design thinking behind making BM strong tho. They want to make Mythic raid and high m+ content accessible to more players. And a class that tops dps and plays itself achieves that.

[honest saddle]

Lol

[hollow snow]

I found the hunter main chat

[wild hornet]

Why cant we make high mplus content accessible to people who can play

[honest saddle]

Every bm hunter ever:

Guys it's not as simple as you make it out to be.

Yes. Yes it is.

[hollow spear]

How did bm perform rn? I only saw that their bis sims were good. Did they already pump the last days?

[hollow snow]

Azor out her bag sanding on max stream and it worked

[wild hornet]

They got nerfed

Iirc

[honest saddle]

No they are shit in raid atm

[hollow snow]

No they didn't. Net buff

[wild hornet]

Let me show u what u mean

[hollow snow]

Ok

[hollow spear]

I guess they just moved some power into baseline out of tier to address scaling?

[honest saddle]

Correct

4-5% overall buff

[hollow spear]

Not sure what the net results are tho

Okay, big

[wild hornet]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/season-2-class-tuning-incoming-march-4th-375381

[glass jasper]

Money, most of the playerbase are not that good. And when they hit the wall and quit early in the season, the money stops pouring in. So therefore they make an easy to play class such as BM hunter.

[hollow spear]

Gear scaling is really a struggle

To balance around

[hollow snow]

Yea demo no.

Net buff

[wild hornet]

I thought that shift made it into a nerf

[wild vine]

the flaw in that logic is that the difficulty of endgame content never had anything to do with the difficulty of any spec

[hollow spear]

I want some of what demo had

[hollow snow]

Demo I wish u were right

Unforch

[wild hornet]

5 gold

[hollow snow]

They're prolly pi target too. Them or fmage

Chatgpt class

[sinful zephyr]

It is a bit frustrating they keep tuning down finisher damage

[prime ice]

!cds

[wicked jolt]

Cooldown Use:
Every 90 seconds you want to cast Flagellation and subsequently Shadow Blades. When these two are up you always want cast 2 Symbols of Death, 2 Shadow Dances and 2 Secret Techniques.
To ensure you have enough cooldown reduction on your Shadow Dance to attain that you need atleast 1 charge and roughly 40 seconds left on your second charge before casting Flagellation.

[remote shuttle]

lol... -5% SecTec -2 ws max charges... why? 😦

[rain stratus]

People cried too hard

[remote shuttle]

sad they listen babies so... 😦

[keen dome]

They are scared of the big crit.

[sinful zephyr]

How fast is the tier set stacking up actually, lets say from 0 to max in shadow dance?

[golden kelp]

You'll typically be maxed going into 2nd dance

[sinful zephyr]

I see, thank you

[golden kelp]

even more so with the change of cap to 8 stacks

[fallow nimbus]

Wait until tcs find out we play deathstalker again because of burst nerfs

[wraith sphinx]

don't put that evil on us

don't manifest it

[hollow spear]

The diffy was a little too big between trickster and ds

(I hope)

[white thunder]

i just dont wanna have to play assa again

[hollow spear]

The most annoying thing about tier nerfs is that my argument to funnel me tier is getting weaker

[sinful zephyr]

I wouldnt play deathstalker if it was 5% ahead

[golden kelp]

going from 30% to the 10% or whatever we are now has definitely been an emotional rollercoaster

[keen dome]

😨

nooooooooo, bad thoughts.

[hollow spear]

I heard there's another hotfix. They're going to make us less purple.

[wraith sphinx]

"hotfix: we've decided to change the shadow dance glow to more of a diarrhea brown because frankly, fuck you guys"

[steel zinc]

Our tierset is still bugged on ptr

[random hare]

?

U know that the nerf affects deathstalker too right

[steel zinc]

Myth

[keen dome]

[hollow spear]

So coup resets still and what was the other bug?

[solar charm]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[steel zinc]

Sectech doesn't get amped by tier

Only 33% of the time

So you have 0 stacks does 1 damage and 8 stacks does also 1 damage

[tulip gorge]

They solved the problem by nerfing sec tech

[obtuse osprey]

suuuurely it will get fixed

[rustic mortar]

I dont know, wie cannot Computer with mage fe but I dont See mage changes

[hollow spear]

And we're simming based on the assumption that it will get fixed?

[rustic mortar]

*compete

[steel zinc]

Yes sims are assumung that

[hollow spear]

Rip

[obtuse osprey]

its fine were just lying to the others

[steel zinc]

It's like 1-1.5% nerf too

[vale pine]

i added the ring nerf to the pin

need to run a sim later

[steel zinc]

Nice how much is that?

[rustic mortar]

I See Myself getting tier last since all others get more out of Tier

[tulip gorge]

Is the ring no longer bis?

[steel zinc]

That is not true

Our tier is still the best from our token

[hollow spear]

Cope take: if tier hadn't been bugged, they would've nerfed sectec by 10%

[vale pine]

i don't know yet

i just woke up

[steel zinc]

Some blizzard dev had a horrible dream that sub was meta in keys and raid. So they adjusted ...

[somber ether]

Fuck me I don't want to play assa, how close is it looking boys?

[jolly pasture]

dw assa is braindead

[hollow spear]

Can always go back

[rustic mortar]

I think Arms has the Most gain Like 10.x %

At least the excel sheet says so

[mental kettle]

what ring?

im ootl

[brisk onyx]

I'm sure some of them are very scared of burst spec

[rustic mortar]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1344730133940015116/1344730200449093683/image.png?ex=67c3f357&is=67c2a1d7&hm=b6df485737294a334c16d342ae00229fcea973a37bba6bbdf0588dbdead9ff39&

[clever delta]

Atleast stat wise nothing really change so you can swap between ass and sub freely

[quick swan]

Was the ring nerf a stealth change? I cant find it

[jolly pasture]

asssa wants heavy crit and no vers

[obtuse osprey]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/patch-11-1-hotfixes-for-february-28-2025-cyrces-circlet-nerfed-375385

[quick swan]

Scrap that

[mental kettle]

what is this new ring? I'm clueless

[steel zinc]

Wdym?

[mental kettle]

I thought there was a ring like S2 in DF

thought they brought something like this back

[obtuse osprey]

they did

[mental kettle]

but idk i might be smoking some good shit

ah ok

[clever delta]

Assa want ilvl

[mental kettle]

what is it called?

[obtuse osprey]

Cyrce's Circlet

[mental kettle]

thanks

[jolly pasture]

thats not the same as saying stats dont change

[steel zinc]

Assa doesn't care about stats

Both like mastery and its fine

[steel zinc]

If you played the game in the last months you have it. If not it takes like 30m to get it to max itemlevel

[mental kettle]

I havent played it so I need to get it 🙂

[steel zinc]

Ok try to get it now its bis and doesn't take long to get

[keen dome]

Ye, it's like Mapko says: 30 minutes max

It's super quick

[mental kettle]

yeah doing it now for fun

[dreamy badger]

For fun is illegal in wow afaik

[mental kettle]

is there anything else I can get gear wise this week? My gear is like 609 with a 4 set from start of expac 💀

[jolly pasture]

yes drop the 4set from last expac

[hollow spear]

Get anything with ilvl basically haha

[steel zinc]

Try to get any transmitter. Kyveza from lfr normal orhc

[mental kettle]

i have transmitter already

[steel zinc]

Hc?

[mental kettle]

nah 619

i think its lfr

[steel zinc]

That's normal

[keen dome]

Yeah

high5 normal imp telephone buddy

[steel zinc]

Get the hc one and do a full hc clear to get also stones

Hc is like faceroll after the patch

Bosses die in 2m

[mental kettle]

i dont remember the raid but i'll see if i can even get inv with no ilvl and no achiev 💀

[keen dome]

Absolutely

[steel zinc]

Just make your own group call it valorstone farm

[keen dome]

Some raid leads will be moron babies but most'll take you 'cos you are a body and exist at this point.

[steel zinc]

People been running these all weekend

[keen dome]

Or do that, lmao, that's a genius idea

[mental kettle]

good idea

oh shit my guild died

o7

[vale pine]

[void hound]

guild dedge 5 days before seaon starts? thats a certified classic

[steel zinc]

Fuu you gotta wait for update to sim the ring? It might be now 665 when we can change it

[vale pine]

should be in the sim, give me a secound ill run a sim on it

[mental kettle]

i think it died aftewr DF tbh

i just havent been playing much TWW

[thorn stream]

what u think about secret technique nerf ?

[void hound]

knee jerk nerf

so usually the worst kind

[vale pine]

Sim - Ring 1
Sim - Ring 2

So the ring nerf moves the ring from 0.3% behind to
0.6-0.9% behind

[steel zinc]

These sims already include the nerfs to sub from this night?

[stone patrol]

@vale pine the sims are currenlty not up to date or? where there many changes between 11 th Feb -> now ?

[vale pine]

the sims on the sheet / on raidbots don't include the nerfs

the nerfs come with reset

the ring was hotfix nerfed tho

so thats on raidbots

[half osprey]

so conclusion is - we roll assa instead of sub or is sub still viable?

[vale pine]

the nerf was very small

sub is fine

[swift tinsel]

Takes more than that to kill us

We stack vers

[stone patrol]

and the assa sims? if i click the string i get a 1.8m sim

[half osprey]

ty @vale pine

[steel zinc]

oh so ring is already live and we can sim ourselfs. Do we take any other combos? (sorry to lazy to sim rn)

[vale pine]

there is no real change

the main change is that the tier set was nerfed

and we do a little less damage

both only after the weekly reset

[fallow nimbus]

What's the top sim now?

[steel zinc]

Like Rogue or overall all specs/classes in the game?

[fallow nimbus]

Rogue and overall

[steel zinc]

Warrior still top and Rogue is like 80kish sub rogue nerf from top sim

so roughly sub is 2.5ish assa roughly 100k buff to 2.44

So pretty much if you need execute you spec into assa now
this includes ring nerfs

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/thats-all-folks-the-end-its-over-gif-21774675

[steel zinc]

The ring is a 21k nerf for me

thats pretty big ngl

[vale pine]

ye

[lilac stag]

How in the hell did fury (and arms) go relatively untouched

[steel zinc]

idk they also dont use that much execute as spell in execute

warrior nerf is roughly 5%

[lilac stag]

Arms? Yes they do

[tulip gorge]

Fire mage getting away with it too

[steel zinc]

hey also @vale pine is now a crafted ring again more viable as an option? Even double crafted or do we need the special ring in order to replace Citrine

[vale pine]

you can get a stat ring in raid with random stats

so don't think you want to use a crafted

[lilac stag]

We can now go back to redirecting everyone to as meta.

[vale pine]

shouldn't be too bad tho

[clever delta]

[vale pine]

possible, not sure

sub is still good

[lilac stag]

peace and quiet returns shortly

[lilac stag]

Ofc. Just way more to learn than assa which is same sim and has more tools

[quick swan]

Its equal now? Huh

[lilac stag]

if not equal it will be close enough for people to say fuck figuring out sub.

[clever delta]

Time to farm rings than

[molten storm]

guys how hard is sub compared to assa? I feel like going sub for 11.1 but the learnig curve seems to be tough

[lilac stag]

Considerably more to worry about with a faster gameplay loop overall

[quick swan]

Tbh, kinda in that boat lol. Ive been practicing all week and worried about my performance since it aint an easy swap

Done it before no worries but still

[tiny flint]

which spec will be the best in the raid?

[lilac stag]

both

[quick swan]

I could go play arms

Turn brain off entirely

[molten storm]

where can i find all top sims?

[lilac stag]

Arms has more to it than assa does.

[vale pine]

well

[restive venture]

Please don’t do that. It’s finally peaceful over there

[lilac stag]

The price you pay for being blizzards golden child of rogue specs.

[lethal breach]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[steel zinc]

sheet from cursed gifts but not up to date rn

[steel zinc]

until the last 3 bosses most people that do prog will switch later to assa for execute damage.

[quick swan]

Not really haha

[restive venture]

Warrior can just kinda drool and get good dps

[quick swan]

Was this not proven to be absolute dogwater misinformation

[vale pine]

idk, the amount of time people told me execute is bait is high enough to not trust in peoples opinion anymore

[lilac stag]

What do you think assa is doing?

[quick swan]

Assa is still a harder spec

[vale pine]

I think assassinaiton will always be played if its on par damage wise

just because its easier to execute

[lilac stag]

Bullshit

[quick swan]

Its not bs lol

[alpine wraith]

no need to race to the bottom

[vale pine]

having more benefits like a execute just pushes people even more into the direction of the spec

[alpine wraith]

it cant get easier you use cds on cd

[steel zinc]

From the last 3 Bosses 2.5 Bosses have hard execute phase. Where all damage beforehand doesnt matter

[lilac stag]

what is hard about assa compared to arms?

[restive venture]

Assa has to use brain a little lol

[vale pine]

every rogue spec needs to use the brain a little

[quick swan]

Juggling deathmark alone is harder than arms lmao

[restive venture]

Dot mangement, timings

[lilac stag]

It’s envenom simulator. Press a cd every minute and hope it doesn’t get parried.

[quick swan]

Stop the cap

[restive venture]

Not spamming to keep thistle tea charges

[vale pine]

if we don't see subtlety played, we know blizz does not want people to play it ^^

[restive venture]

Energy pooling

[quick swan]

You dont pool anymore really lol

[lilac stag]

pretty sure all of that is out of the apl mate

[quick swan]

3-4 sec before KB is a small optimisation

[lilac stag]

Cause it didn’t matter

[restive venture]

Sorta yes and no. It’s a good thing to learn

[steel zinc]

bruh thats some stuff 😄 😄

[restive venture]

Not used much tho

[lilac stag]

lol

[restive venture]

Idk why I’m even saying anything. Bro clearly won’t see a difference even if you uploaded it his brain

[vale pine]

Haha ^^

I mean this xpac so far had only one rogue spec existing

lets see if seaosn 2 chanegs that

[restive venture]

Hopefully it does

[steel zinc]

I mean sub was after buffs playable in raid

Before these nerfs I would say sub tier

its still very good early on ngl

according to @lucid jackal all bosses love 90 sec specs

[vale pine]

I don't understand the nerfs, but i also think we will see sub played

[void hound]

huh

sub saw play in the RWF for the last two bosses

[hollow spear]

imagine saying assa is hard and then giving two outdated ideas as reason

lul

[restive venture]

It always seems like blizzard has 0 idea on where they want sub.

[lilac stag]

sub is still the tankier option

[vale pine]

we don't rly need to fight over what spec is harder

[hollow spear]

pooling is not a thing anymore

[steel zinc]

that was because of tombs

[vale pine]

subtlety has a lot more moving parts, so just objectively its harder

[steel zinc]

sub could solo tombs

[hollow spear]

and reapplying rupture and garrote is hardly "dot management"

[steel zinc]

it kinda is sometimes

[vale pine]

cdr is one thing that adds variance you don't have on assassination

[void hound]

yeah sure
but where does this idea come from that sub was unplayable lol

[vale pine]

making things harder to understand/learn/optimize

[steel zinc]

there is a difference between unplayable and A tier

[restive venture]

No one said it was harder man. Don’t make an argument over something. No one said

Just saying harder than arms warrior

[steel zinc]

we had static dance back in wod I think

[hollow spear]

well, it isn't

[restive venture]

It is

[vale pine]

we had

[lilac stag]

By people that don’t want to learn the spec therefore the easier spec is better.

[void hound]

it saw play at the last two bosses
how much more viability do you want?

[vale pine]

the difficulty of assassiantion mainly lies in dot management

which subtlety also has

[quick swan]

Must admit having cdr is pretty ass

[steel zinc]

its because our raidbuff is on some fights roughly the hps of 1/3 of a healer.

[lilac stag]

I’m not mad we get a slot for utility

[steel zinc]

ngl on some fights this tier where bosses are imun you will shuriken toss and SnD to get more cdr 😄

[clever delta]

So we won't have some "final" sims before reset?

I mean for all specs

[jolly pasture]

sub would need something extra if it lost CDR imo, otherwise it would become as static as sin

[vale pine]

I think you missunderstand my point btw. It is not 3head to state that only one spec of the 3 was played.
Subtlety needed buffs to be even played by some higher end players is not a good counter argument.

[steel zinc]

Yes I agree

Was just meming

Sorry

[tribal blade]

what're we arguing about

who am i mad at

[quick swan]

I have the option of staying rogue or going warrior this tier and I genuinely cant make up my mind lol

[tribal blade]

i'm so mad right now, point me at someone

[steel zinc]

also also just added nightblade to the game again. What is rupture?

[restive venture]

some guy tried to say me saying assa was harder than arms warrior was me saying assa was harder than sub (which I never said. sub is objectively much harder)

[vale pine]

i can also back it by the amount of parses

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/its-me-hi-im-the-problem-its-me-taylor-swift-anti-hero-midnights-hi-gif-13029647805586693511

[steel zinc]

warrior

[tribal blade]

straight to jail

[restive venture]

:(

[lilac stag]

It was me

[lilac stag]

not like I have any experience with all 4

[steel zinc]

imo comes all down to how much you play a spec. Like I could probably play sub right now nearly blind (with sounds) and assa I could not since I didnt play it that much. I could in Amirdrasil

[tribal blade]

jk ilu

[restive venture]

`

[jolly pasture]

criminal

[restive venture]

agreed. I can play assa and outlaw but I cant for the life of me learn sub

[steel zinc]

just play it alot

[restive venture]

I would like to learn sub because I think the class theme is really cool

[steel zinc]

Sub Theme was better in Legion imo

[vale pine]

another example, sub players in the top 1% iirc of keys

[clever delta]

It's not that hard to learn ppl just make it too hard in their mind

[tribal blade]

yeah it's pretty bad

[steel zinc]

That is some cook when sub was really good in SL even played in MDI more people played it

[vale pine]

or the % of melee dps in keys

subtlety is the least palyed melee dps

[alpine wraith]

ONE OF US

representing

[frozen lily]

Learning to play a spec by sound cues only is so nice. Reminds me that i have to set up some good ones for sub still

[jolly pasture]

sin is ruining rogue man

[waxen matrix]

Guys i need some help!:D
In between big CD's is it ever worth to hold ST for a little (2-5sec) and wait for Cold blood to come up? or just always send ST regardless?

[alpine wraith]

people just like sin

what can you do

[quick swan]

Outlaw is ruining rogue more like

That spec is cooked

[jolly pasture]

cant understand how you can like sin

its so static

[alpine wraith]

well they have more than 10 times the players sub has

many reasons

[proven plover]

Outlaw is fun minus ks

[vale pine]

also lets add pvp

just for the fun of it

[tribal blade]

yes it can be worth doing that if you fire CB immediately so it's ready for next cd set

[vale pine]

subtlety is THE pvp rogue spec

somehow, looking at pvp statistics

[steel zinc]

Rotation of sub is very fluent and rewarding if you follow certain rules. Some specs like outlaw for example you are just not thinking and just button mashing afap

[vale pine]

assassiantion is roughly twice the amount of players

[tribal blade]

but you can save yourself some trouble and just use CB on cd sets

[jolly pasture]

well sin being the best spec is probably super big part of it

[void hound]

sin just has everything now
kinda no reason to play the other specs for the most part when it comes to utility/performance

[vale pine]

Sub is not even in the content its known for the dominant Rogue spec

[tribal blade]

sub is pikaboo's preferred spec

[alpine wraith]

sub in pvp is super hard

[tribal blade]

his mind is perfect for sub

[jolly pasture]

100%

they should have never put in spatter

[steel zinc]

St just make sure to get your 2nd sectech with cb. In m+ that highly depends on the situation. Might be worth in AOE to send first sectech with cb if more mobs are alive at that point.

[tribal blade]

https://youtu.be/KMCVdKnDLp4?si=4N2VGRW38kC7Q9_q

[void hound]

and IC

[jolly pasture]

amirdrassil has more sub parses than sin for example. so its just comes down to tuning imo. esp when sin is dominant spec in m+ also

[restive venture]

Genuinely why does blizzard just not like sub rogue?

[quick swan]

Sub also shit in world content in comparison

[restive venture]

They give outlaw and assa a lot of love but give sub nothing

[void hound]

huh

[jolly pasture]

outlaw a lot of love?

XDD

[void hound]

outlaw is left even more in the dust wdym

[restive venture]

well they used to

[frozen lily]

Outlaw got lots of love???

[restive venture]

USED TO

[tribal blade]

i was thinking about that the other day, you're probably better off sending CB on 1st sectec in a lower key

[restive venture]

I know outlaw is really shitty rn too lol

[wild vine]

Thats for a totally different reason tho ngl

[frozen lily]

OK sure once upon a time

[vale pine]

explain

[void hound]

has nothing to do with liking
blizz is just spread extremely thin when it comes to dev capacity, which is why QA is so bad generally
they just cant afford to waste time on a spec that a 100 people play when there are bigger issues (in their eyes)

[tribal blade]

i think it's just rogue as a whole isn't getting a whole lot of attention

all 3 specs

[frozen lily]

Yeah

[jolly pasture]

thats self fulfilling prophecy

[vale pine]

^ what innovation says

[wild vine]

Sub has a setup and enabler playstyle in pvp, while sin has a more "Zug zug" approach. Many people dont like the setup way

[tribal blade]

just looking at the notes going into this patch is very telling

[jolly pasture]

ppl dont play spec because its bad blizzard dont fix spec because nobody plays it gg

[restive venture]

thats good point

[vale pine]

blizz wants to keep costs low, it is why we have very limited dev capacity

[jolly pasture]

not limited for mage shaman and hunter every tier

[void hound]

it is kinda, but it also makes sense from a project managment perspective

[wild vine]

Also sub tends to be way worse in 2s unless you play with a mage and has less potentially good combs

[vale pine]

and it results in the "popular" specs getting more attention and updates than the least popular

[tribal blade]

WELL shammy is different, they were in the dust before too

[vale pine]

subtlety is basically the least popular spec in the entire game

so well

[tribal blade]

it's only during TWW they started getting mage level attention

[vale pine]

What stops pvp and regular talent choice to give more options

[tribal blade]

it really is

[vale pine]

also the reason why sub is pushed into this niche is basically

[tribal blade]

even max from liquid knows nothing about sub

[vale pine]

that mage is op

[void hound]

wow suffers from extreme design debt and bloat so its hard to make meaningful changes for the entire player base

[vale pine]

so in any setup with rogue and mage, rogue contributing in cc and damage

will make mage + rogue setups op

the solution blizz found to it wa to make rogue do no damage

so the combinaiton isn't that insane

[wild vine]

Ye, dont think blizz has another solution they wanna invest in, so sub will stay in the mage prison for the foreseeable future

[vale pine]

its more

if you are in a certain position now

there needs to be a very very good reason

why you want to change it

and sub is "good enough" overall

to have very little reason to touch it

it is basically how development worked in DF too

also why subtlety was never rly hyped in any of the updates since DF beta

[void hound]

yup

[jolly pasture]

DF rework was a good start but they just halfway got to a good point and then left us (not just sub, outlaw too)

[vale pine]

for example, many of the talents dh got could have been on rogue too

but DH rly struggled to even find a niche since it was introduced

so it made a lot more sense to spend time on DH

10.2 was all about assassination

the initial beta was mostly about not having enough time to develop all 3 specs, so it ended up "it is what it is"

[void hound]

10.2 was a kino patch overall but yeh

[hollow spear]

Right now, I feel like Sub is in a decent position compared to where it's been when 11.0 came out

It's more the tuning that's a bit question mark

But they fixed bugs that made us sad

[frozen lily]

Hero talents probably took a huge amount of effort

[jolly pasture]

sub plays well but they keep propping up sin so nobody goes to play sub

[vale pine]

it is becuase they buffed it

[random hare]

At keeping them bugged

[void hound]

yeah sub is not terrible by any means
the only thing i find frustrating is the overabudance of bugs which take multiple large content patches to get resolved
or tier sets that ship bugged

[lilac stag]

What do we want? Burst Dmg

Blizzard: got it. Here’s consecutive tuning to lower your burst.

[tribal blade]

guess how much effort they put into rogue hero talents as a whole smile

[lilac stag]

We’re still in alpha dev stage on those

[jolly pasture]

fatebound had literally 0

[frozen lily]

Yeah not the rogue hero talents obviously

[jolly pasture]

the other 2 are fine i guess ?

[vale pine]

subtleties aoe finisher was massively buffed for example

even tho it did shit damage foever

and still isn't insane after the massive buff

all updates we saw recently did target other specs more than subtlety ^^

[wild vine]

Its imo rather shit if the choice with trickster is to still evis up to 7

For overall damage

[jolly pasture]

even if outlaw had more done to it, its still unplayable in any serious content while sub is

[vale pine]

a extremely good example of what i mean is the subterfuge rework

[tribal blade]

trickster is completely unplayable for outlaw and DS makes playing sub feel like you're pulling teeth

[vale pine]

trying to make subterfuge valuable for assasisantion

while completely ignoring it for subtlety

[jolly pasture]

yeah trickster for outlaw doesnt exist but deathstalker for sin and trickster for sub are fine

[hollow spear]

I am talking about stuff like RS bug fixes etc

[vale pine]

The RS bug fix was promised to ship in jan 2024

[hollow spear]

so less design improvement but ironing out annoying stuff

[vale pine]

just saying

[tribal blade]

yeah, but it's a pretty bad situation to only have 1 playable hero tree per spec

[frozen lily]

Deathstalker is a bit toxic gameplay imo

In general

Mark management is not fun

[tribal blade]

i totally forgot they even promised that

i vaguely remember it now

[lilac stag]

SoonTM

[jolly pasture]

its not as bad as having 1 playable spec in m+ and possibly 1 in raid too, but that remains to be seen for raid

[mental kettle]

are these still the best gems for dungeon slice for the ring? Subtlety: Legendary / Stormbringer / Fathomdweller

[vale pine]

I am very happy we see bugfixes

but its a problem that keeps happening

you essentially spend less time developing a spec

it means bugs pile up

[frozen lily]

At least they finally fixed the outlaw subterfuge bug

[vale pine]

so every time you now want to change somehting

you first need to possibly fix bugs

and fixing bugs takes time

[hollow spear]

true that

[sinful zephyr]

maybe we will see more movement now that some bugs got fixed

[vale pine]

and your boss won't tell you

that you get more time to spend on the spec

because its not popular

[lilac stag]

Pretty sure coup animation not working in PTR again.

[hollow spear]

He used his time on havoc this time around

The new coup sound is kinda distracting ngl

Feels almost like a weakaura playing

[lilac stag]

How many more havoc players in heroic/mythic compared to sub?

[vale pine]

neverless, enough ranting

i am still happy how well symbols charges played out

surprised even, because my initial assumption was they would suck to play

[hollow spear]

I need a shaman buff dispenser to train on the dummy

[steel zinc]

its legion sub with 300000 symbols charges

[hollow spear]

CDR is ass

[vale pine]

it is more complicated

sub is probably the most complicated spec in the game

because of all the cooldown handeling and dynamic from cdr

[tribal blade]

i remember all the dooming over it 😉

[vale pine]

just to be clear, i am not saying other specs or classes don't have difficult optimizations

[vale pine]

haha ye, then we found out that it becomes fairly intuitive if you change your thought model to be more centered around secret tech

and supercharger

went brr

[tribal blade]

yeah supercharger is the best change we've had in a while

[frozen lily]

Very annoying to optimise SC for outlaw since it’s tied to rtb

Seems more straightforward for sub to me, but I’m no sub expert

[waxen meadow]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[waxen meadow]

!plater

[smoky vault]

Thing is, I also highly suspect that with the shitstorm of tanks M+, they encourage ironically to play hybrid design so buffing DH, popular, can tank, bring more utility

[lilac wharf]

I still dont geht how supercharged combo points work... if I have a supercharged combo point and I am using a finisher on max combo points, then my finisher will be executed with 8 combo points?

[primal kettle]

New rogue here. I'm trying to practice sub on dummies to get a feel for the rotation but my logs seem to be massively undercounting my eviscerates. I recorded a video where I counted ~80 eviscerate + coup de grace casts, but my logs are saying I only did like 30. Is this an issue for other rogues? Are the Dornogal dummies just bugged and not registering properly? Is there anywhere I can practice and get a good idea of how much damage I'm actually doing outside of instanced content?

[autumn flame]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[smoky vault]

When it was 200k behind on chart you could ask the question... Now it's on par realistically appart being huge fan of the rogue gameplay OR hoping for buff, DH is the obvious choice rn... WRF would want a rogue tho but the rest ...

[autumn flame]

Is the Assa sim up to date in the sheet?

[vale pine]

The entire talent rework in DF just addes so many problems

You essentially hoped for a good coinflip to get a good setup so blizz has time to improve on it rather than trying to band aid the existing one

[small spruce]

How big was the new nerfs? Can’t see it being that big😅

[vale pine]

i made a pin, but its not big

[round latch]

coz its not big

also hi fuu

[hollow spear]

This whole dooming about guilds not bringing a rogue

Never understood that

As if it mattered in a rank 500 guild anyways

[round latch]

its until u get declined in the 1st 5 applications

then it hits u

[wild hornet]

idk mine made me play rogue

[round latch]

[wild hornet]

cause we dont have one

and we had 2 retris

[small spruce]

Ahh my bad, I’m on the phone so didn’t see the new added ping😅ty for pointing it out❤️

[hollow spear]

Well, you can get declined on any class

[lilac stag]

2-3% nerf in bottom 25% of “sims” not exactly great

[hollow spear]

There's probably 500 ret paladins competing with you if you play that class

[vale pine]

all fine, we don't have exact numbers yet

[mental kettle]

ig we wont be replacing the ring this patch for all 3 specs?

[smoky vault]

Also, the New design of M+ and lowering tediousness to acquire warband resources may make us enter in a vicous cycle where if a class is not popular, business modelers blizzard will say "Well, letq not prioritize at least they can play other class easier now" ...

[wild hornet]

wdym

[vale pine]

thats what she said

[small spruce]

I love sub, so I really hope it stays as good as it is atm, I fucking hate assa

[hollow spear]

If you applied as ret pally you'd have more competition than if you applied as a rogue

[mental kettle]

why do you hate assa

[hollow spear]

Can't have it all is what I'm saying

[round latch]

something something poison something something bleeds

[small spruce]

Generic and the static feel of it feels very non interactive imo

[shrewd grail]

yeah i dont think ppl copium on tier list

[smoky vault]

You mean the true identity of the rogue by the book you hate ? XD

[shrewd grail]

also some streamer witrh casual 300 viewer https://gyazo.com/69b363427849602afea10064049514b9

[hollow spear]

We're a 90s class, so all good

[wild hornet]

true

[rancid lichen]

wrong loot spec gg

[mental kettle]

if anything i'd say its too slow

[wild hornet]

i just took one for the team and switched to team yellow

[mental kettle]

outlaw time

[shrewd grail]

you marked as yellow

[wild hornet]

dont wanna bother tooting my own horn agaisnt the other ret

[shrewd grail]

you dont trick anyone here

[wild hornet]

fuck

[round latch]

sin btw is very proactive spec this time around

[rancid lichen]

it's the rogue color tho

[rancid lichen]

[vale pine]

you did say tier list, we have a ravenholdt approved one too

[mental kettle]

why is shammy in E?

[round latch]

coz it got nuked from orbit

[lilac stag]

Figure it out

You can do it

[mental kettle]

lmao

[vale pine]

I have NO idea why __E__lemental shaman is E

[worn cape]

It's pretty self explanatory

[mental kettle]

i remember they were pumping start of expac but a nuke makes sense

[shrewd grail]

yeah DH and fire mage are too bad

[mental kettle]

o7

[shrewd grail]

i agree

[round latch]

true elementlul kinda based

[shrewd grail]

also boomie B tier

[mental kettle]

damn i didnt know frost dk got nuked too

[shrewd grail]

very accurate

[lilac stag]

Dave should be D instead of S

[wild hornet]

surely you didnt make this one

[sour forum]

i just wanna paniiic

no way they nerf based on live data right? RIGHT!?!?!?!

[vale pine]

^^

[worn cape]

Poor Windwalker really went into the dumps.

[wild hornet]

fuck windwalker

acc no we are gonna have 2 in the guild

buff windwalker

[shrewd grail]

i have a business modele guyz

[small spruce]

Guess ppl feel different 😅it just feels slow and when popping cds it doesn’t feel as good as say vendetta used to feel

[shrewd grail]

i do a copium tierlist and then make VOD only for sub

[worn cape]

Outlaw rogue also became a lot worse after they changed it from combat.

[shrewd grail]

imagine

[wild hornet]

im in

[sour forum]

where can i sub?

[vale pine]

I did like the Legion design of it more than the now more cooldown oriented one, which feels a lot more like subtlety ^^

[wild hornet]

we should make a fuu approved tierlist where sub is s, outlaw is a, everytinh else is b and assa is F

[vale pine]

i don't hate assassiantion

[wild hornet]

i do and im gonna pay you to put it there

[lilac stag]

Fuu you’ve really confused folks with the tier list.

[wild hornet]

[small spruce]

Keep sub as it is now and I’m happy! Love hearing in discord “wtf did they do to sub?!” 😂

[vale pine]

only one way to fix that, more tier lists

class tier list

[hollow spear]

They should have nerfed us a week into the patch. Would've been my time to get some good parses before everyone rolls back to sin.

[lilac stag]

Still not obvious enough

[wild hornet]

put feral in rogue row

[tribal blade]

rogue at the bottom 😭

[sacred yarrow]

this is the best tier list of wow classes ive seen, its highly just and fair to each individual class

[vale pine]

i think sub is still relevant, its hard to say how much execute will play a role in the raid tho.

[round latch]

Vendetta just increased the overall dmg by a large amount,i think now its much more sophisticated and way better.Bleeds and poisons are the identity sin always had.As for Sub im a huge fan of sub,mostly pvped with it but trully love it,its the beating heart of the class.

[wild hornet]

i just hope i dont get forced to play assa

i dont want to install hekili

[lilac stag]

Technically they are nerfing us a week into the patch.

[hollow spear]

I'm talking about the fotm sub rerollers

I'll play sub anyways

[wild hornet]

same

maybe outlaw in dungs if it gets buffed

[vale pine]

petition to rename rogue, we need something fancier like "Artful Thieves"

[wild hornet]

or uncapped

by some miraculous chance

[small spruce]

Indeed, I’ve only really played sub in pvp before now, but I’ve avoided playing rogue as long as assa has been the best spec😂outlaw is cool, never forget the meta in bfa😂

[wild hornet]

leather ninja

[vale pine]

i think most of them already left after seeing the opener

[wild hornet]

or budget mage

[vale pine]

going from

[near obsidian]

the opener isnt like the hard part tho

[vale pine]

to

[wild hornet]

yeah the rotation change is too hard for me

xd

[hollow spear]

Doesn't even look so complicated

It's worse when you do it

[vale pine]

it isn't

well it kinda is

[wild hornet]

fuu you gotta understand the struggles ret gets

putting 1 more button

before Exec

[vale pine]

^^

[hollow spear]

And ret is "just press the glowing thing"

[wild hornet]

its too much pressure for me

so i just reroll to sub

[hollow spear]

There's no glowing thing for us

[near obsidian]

i havent played since they removed sdust cause i thought symbols would suck but it kinda cranks

[vale pine]

the hard part is probably the cooldown managament

[wild hornet]

for ret?

nice joke

[hollow spear]

For sub cuh

[wild hornet]

maybe im just extra slow today

[vale pine]

ye, we all thought so but then found a way to make it work well and its now nice

it did not rly reduce the complexity tho

just made it a bit more intuitive

[near obsidian]

i think sub is just like meant to be complex

[mint swift]

Tbh most of it is just SS evic
You build, you spend

[vale pine]

now you kind of "90 sec cooldowns go brr -- with 2x dance/secret/symbols"

[grave delta]

can u still cloak off shadow binding ritual knife downside

[vale pine]

and in between have one small damage window with dance/symbols/secret

[wild hornet]

!offhand

[vale pine]

or two every now and then

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[smoky vault]

That inevitably happens, for sure. But brain is elastic and have a "forgettable memory mechanism" for very technical things/détails so... Train

[vale pine]

it is, yet every part of it has a fairly logical reason

[wild hornet]

no im just calling myself abnormally dumb

[smoky vault]

That's on you then :p

[wild hornet]

sometimes i just drop into senseless yap

[smoky vault]

Remember optimization talking on those discord won't make you or not fall behind to the point of not being competitve

[hollow spear]

I'm wondering how int it is to go for flag - rupture - symbols into backstab to 6 cp into dance sectec

To build up some more flag stacks

Since flag has 24 seconds duration

[vale pine]

you lose soo much during symbols

sounds rly bad

[wild hornet]

i just hope this season my logs dont look like this

[hollow spear]

Wdym lose?

[vale pine]

well

[sacred yarrow]

i didnt understand, can you rephrase, please?

[vale pine]

both of your rotten charges

will be on backstab

you also will fit less strong spells in symbols

[hollow spear]

Hm true, god damn rotten

[vale pine]

flag charges might not be as much of an issue tho

[hollow spear]

Yeah but symbols lasts like 12.5+ seconds anyways

[vale pine]

because supercharger makes them less strict

[smoky vault]

I say many discuss here are to gain small %, player that struggle with rotation opti should simplify it, macro etc.

[vale pine]

deix is not wrong

simplifying things is rly helpful at the start

you can do optimizations step by step after

[sacred yarrow]

thank you

[wild hornet]

i did that with other specs and it bites back later on

cause of the muscle memory built up you make from the oversimplification

and then the struggle of doing the actual thing

[hollow spear]

Yeah took me ages to withdraw from my cb macro haha

But ok, that's also in the 1% range thing that we're talking about

People tend to worry about minor stuff while absolutely murdering the basic stuff like opener or flag burst in general

[smoky vault]

Generally speaking how brain works (if you don't have ... Cognitive ease), you want to add things step by step but not "remove". Macro cb is kind of like you dont have cb to think about. But you can add the key later in the rota

[wild hornet]

yeah for some reason i still bstab for another DM stack

even though i know i shouldnt

[hollow spear]

Or being too stupid to jump a 3rd time when they hit sectec (me)

[smoky vault]

But yeah everyone is different in learning process

[vale pine]

The problem is, and i saw this a lot

[feral barn]

Hello Everyone, when i use symbols i don't see my overcharged combo points and don't see the buff is that normal ?

[vale pine]

people come in with questions like

[fierce cedar]

am i the only one who thought the nerf was a surprise lol

[dry plank]

2 nerfs in a row tbh

[smoky vault]

I would say "surprise motherfucker"

[fierce cedar]

literally lmao

[wild hornet]

maybe its an UI problem

[void hound]

the first nerf was definitely warranted

[mint swift]

Spec doing top damage gets nerfed :0?????????

tbf they should have waited for season to start at least

[wild hornet]

2nd one was not needed

[void hound]

hard to tell
its a knee jerk for sure

but what are you gonna do

[fierce cedar]

2nd nerf is just confusing imo

[wild hornet]

[fierce cedar]

especially if sims have any merit

[void hound]

life in wow gets a lot easier once you let go of the idea how much dmg your spec does
i dont think i looked at warcraftlogs statistics once this tier

[smoky vault]

It makes my choice of main easier for S2 with fire mage :p

[void hound]

im not in the coping stage, im in the acceptance stage

[frozen lily]

There is no visible buff, but the default ui should colour your combo points. There is a way to check how many ”charged” cp you have in WA as well

[wild hornet]

i mean ill still play sub regardless

[mint swift]

How to play wow and be happy

[wild hornet]

unless i see im pretty horrible with it

then id probably ask to go back to ret

[void hound]

the key is being less attached

play the game for what it is

[vale pine]

"if i am on 5 combo points, the moon sign is ♈ Aries, the air preasure is 1024.5 hPa and my mouse curser is 2/3 to the left of the screen, i have a slight back wind. With 2531 dpi of mouse acelleration, should i go for my action bar on the bottom left or the bottom right to click shadowstrike"

[wild hornet]

generate more with bstab

true answer

[vale pine]

^ people trying to min/max very small things that are super specific

[feral barn]

Ok i'm using Afenar but i see it's not up to date that might be the problem

[void hound]

i always knew theorcrafting and sims is astrology for wow player

[smoky vault]

This is the problem yeah, trying to be perfect leads to being mediocre

[vale pine]

and forget that they absolutely need to consider the basics

[mint swift]

Fuu
If a sub rogue has 4 apples and a ret pally takes 2, then a mage summons 20 and a warlock burns 7

How many apples does the dev evoker have

[void hound]

"ohhhhh this magical number told me to do x"
oh yeah sounds an awful lot like the holy text from 2000 years ago

[vale pine]

e.g. in DF one player was very eger to learn all about the last gcd of dance

[frozen lily]

I’ve no idea if afenar has implemented showing SC stacks or not

[wild hornet]

9

[signal heath]

thats an easy answer thou... you have to wait until the its a full moon and high tide, it effects your dpi so a keybind is the way...

[vale pine]

when to use shadowstrike, backstab, etc

[flint parrot]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

the need of a extra macro and buffons to optimize

[mint swift]

Here

[feral barn]

I don't know how to enlight combo charges CP with WA 😦

[mint swift]

Your reward

[vale pine]

yet, the very same player did not use their 2 minute cooldowns for 3 minutes in the fight

[wild hornet]

yum

[wild hornet]

that sounds like me

[vale pine]

the point i am making, sometimes understanding the core concepts is important

and getting hung up in one of the super small details can cost you time

[wild hornet]

i mean yeah you cant really put the small bricks if you didnt place the big ones

[vale pine]

and takes away a lot of focus from whats going on around you

[frozen lily]

Sometimes details help you understand, sometimes they are just in the way

[hollow spear]

You're so right fuu

But I'm in this picture and I don't like it

[weary crag]

What do you guys think about sub pvp this patch?

[void hound]

reminds me of that one midwit bellcurve meme

low iq: idk i just press buttons
midwit: NOOO YOU NEED TO LOOK AT THE SIMS AND OPTIMIZE EVERY GLOBAL
high iq: idk i just press buttons

[dry plank]

iq?

[wild hornet]

still good

just be careful of mortal strikes

especially in s2

[wild hornet]

at the end of the day whether you press sectec or backstab you still progress rather than doing nothing

[vale pine]

we have a #pvp, people in there might have a better grasp of the patch

[vale pine]

got you

[tribal blade]

i feel like sub pvpers are gonna be utilizing the 4pc a lot