subtlety

[molten citrus]

like this just needs a wording change to FW to be fine

[tribal blade]

the rule for trickster is you use the 1st rotten charge on strike+premed

[molten citrus]

outcome is still the same :p

[tribal blade]

and then 2nd on storm to apply FW to all targets

and then from then on out it's only strike

[rocky ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/vintageskeleton-creepy-dance-skeleton-gif-8148819

Literally danse macabre

[tribal blade]

it's a bit stupid lol

but what can you do

these are the tools blizz gave to us

[plain zodiac]

that is not mentioned in guide thats what im saying i learned nothing from that guide that i couldnt teach myself

[clever delta]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[plain zodiac]

its so superficial that i just stopped reading tha wowhead guide and learned from cmlo instead

[swift tinsel]

No idea what that is lol

[clever delta]

What is cmlo tho 😄

[plain zodiac]

not even sure yall play m+ if you dont know who that is lmao

[molten citrus]

most people ain't keeping track of folks who do 16-17s

[molten citrus]

[plain zodiac]

gathered

[swift tinsel]

Some of those same folks run tea on ptr

[molten citrus]

you can play m+ without giving a fuck about randoms that don't play on your region

[plain zodiac]

sure you can

[spark tusk]

listen buddy do YOU have 3.4k io?

[swift tinsel]

I DONT EVEN LIKE TEA OKAY

not thistle tea at least

Mint is nice

[spark tusk]

Tea is like fine, some of it is good, it's not coffee

[clever delta]

Assa look down bad and got 1% buff

How does that work

[swift tinsel]

I had my first ever latte a few weeks ago, I’m a changed man

[molten citrus]

i have a sneaking suspicion

that every spec is going to be just fine

[outer crescent]

Lies

[clever delta]

Like always

[molten citrus]

liiiiiiiiikkkkeeeee always

yes

[swift tinsel]

Fuu take

[honest saddle]

but we were BETTER than just fine

WE WERE BURST GODS

we flew too close to the sun

now look at us

LOOK AT US!!!

[short radish]

Deathstalker*

[outer crescent]

Were? How has Sub been with the xpac? I’ve been away on a Middle East vacation for 9 months

[short radish]

[plain zodiac]

I wasnt around for that just chill and enjoy like me (burst is still decent)

[swift tinsel]

I’m mostly just taken aback by the changes they made and why they chose to do what they did

[molten citrus]

idk man i can't remember a time where any of the specs were truly down bad since i came back to the game (i came back to the game right as sin got a 50% aura buff in SL)

[clever delta]

Blizzard was decent with tunning last two expansion

[swift tinsel]

The 4pc nerf feels pretty heavy-handed, and the compensatory buffs are just kinda weird

And similarly aimless like sin’s

[clever delta]

All rogue specs was playable all seasons

It's better for us to have stronger baseline

[honest saddle]

I dunno if a burst spec having less burst and stronger baseline is ever "better"

[clever delta]

Nobody believed that we get away with that tier bonus anyway

[swift tinsel]

Of course, but a 15% nerf

For a spec that does most of its damage in burst

By design

[clever delta]

It's probably among stronger tier sets still

[honest saddle]

it is.

its still like 12-14% 4pc

[clever delta]

Yeah so it's fine to me

[swift tinsel]

Eh I’d rather have a higher ceiling than higher floor

[molten citrus]

https://tenor.com/view/ah-shit-here-we-go-again-ah-shit-cj-gta-gta-san-andreas-gif-13933485

[clever delta]

I was OK with that flag rule but rather not have it

[molten citrus]

zeross typing

[honest saddle]

higher cieling mean in aoe moments or amps you can pump

we still can

I dunno

[swift tinsel]

People were way too hyperbolic about the rupture flag thing

[random hare]

@hazy breach considering shadow dmg wasn’t being amped to ST, pre nerf and post nerf, does it mean that we’re still nerfed overall compared to last week?

[molten citrus]

READ PINS OF EVERY CHANNEL BEFORE EXPLODING ZEROSS

[swift tinsel]

And 80% of them didn’t even play it on ptr

[random hare]

WHAT

[molten citrus]

oh he isn't losing his mind today

nevermind

[honest saddle]

not YET

[random hare]

It’s a good question wdym

[honest saddle]

anyway

[clever delta]

Having all power tied to tier set is bad

What you will do next season, cry for buff?

[molten citrus]

no you're fine, i was bracing for your usual entry

i much prefer this

[spark tusk]

Da pins

[molten citrus]

[brisk onyx]

[random hare]

OMGOGMGOOGMGK Sassaszitatuon buFF LETS GOOGOGOGOGOGO

SHEEEEESH

[molten citrus]

ah shit

[spark tusk]

https://tenor.com/view/me-when-i-fucking-get-you-neko-atsume-me-when-me-when-i-get-you-mrtheyes-gif-4157721420697656658

[molten citrus]

read this

[random hare]

hit ‘em where they don’t expect it coming cuh no 🧢

[molten citrus]

outlaw buffs

[spark tusk]

Thousand cuts reset chance buffs

[random hare]

Those aren’t outlaw buffs tho

[spark tusk]

means tracking unseen blade cd is even less reliable

wooooo

[swift tinsel]

Yep it’s great

Still have zero idea how the reset works currently

[random hare]

Those buffs literally don’t do anything to outlaw

[swift tinsel]

But now it’s ’Slightly’ more resetti

[random hare]

Btw trickz

Just to put it that way

[molten citrus]

they are !
but !
they aren't !
at the same time

[random hare]

Precise cuts at 4% with only 1 target + ur main target it was a slight gain

Just because of how good ghostly strikes is

[clever delta]

You guys tracked reset chance or ehatb

what *

[swift tinsel]

You can’t

[random hare]

And if u get 3+ it’s dogshit

[swift tinsel]

There’s zero indication

[spark tusk]

I made a cooldown estimator for fun

[clever delta]

I see

[spark tusk]

but yeah it's only an estimate

[swift tinsel]

There’s no aura or event to track

[molten citrus]

almost all the rogue tuning isn't even tuning

[clever delta]

Unseen hit kinda hard n0w I guews

[spark tusk]

Also not really a reason to track it anymore

[swift tinsel]

You can only have a counter start at 20 and count down

[spark tusk]

or ever really

[random hare]

Like

Ghostly strikes is 15% pure st gain

Its rly op

Off gcd

Does dmg

Gives cp

[spark tusk]

Gotta account for sec tec given extra uses and using a generator to kill a target putting it on cd without doing damage event

[molten citrus]

i am agreeing with you ross

ik

[random hare]

Idk maybe we’ll use precise cuts when the pack dies

And we have to clean the mobs afterwards

[slate lantern]

ross is ready to all over the assa buffs

[random hare]

[swift tinsel]

Truly blessed timeline

[tulip gorge]

What do you even sacrifice for precise cuts

[random hare]

Ghostly strikes

Impossible to remove that cuh

[brisk onyx]

[swift tinsel]

How did they decide these nothingburger changes lmao

[random hare]

Might be decent at 5% tho in theater of pain who knows

[slate lantern]

realz went into a k-hole while at a club in ibiza and figured out the enlightened path for outlaw

[random comet]

drop st talent in the 5 boss 4 lieutenant key?

[molten citrus]

at least aug may actually be dead now too btw

[random hare]

idk cuh

[molten citrus]

everyone is saying its dead

[swift tinsel]

That clutchmates change is a torpedo

[random hare]

Are they enough to keep it dead tho

[molten citrus]

[brisk onyx]

i dont care

[raw dust]

hi everyone

[brisk onyx]

[molten citrus]

the answer is in the eye of the beholder zeross

pins

[steel zinc]

Did they fix sectech part of the tier?

[molten citrus]

no

[swift tinsel]

Nope

Still goofy and can split dmg

[steel zinc]

Ok so we are now total garbo

[honest saddle]

@hazy breach any chance we can get a look at what 2+2 and 4pc is worth now with changes?

[molten citrus]

iirc eleem said it was fixed

but haptics tested and it was still fucky for him

[molten citrus]

as things get more finalized we will, yes, patience

[random hare]

[swift tinsel]

Yeah the damage range was like 2.4mil to 3.3mil

[steel zinc]

So some say fixed and some say no

[swift tinsel]

Using the same conditions for each cast

[random hare]

4pc keeping 2pc is already what makes the tier set good

[swift tinsel]

So sectech is still effed

[random hare]

There’s no chance that we play 2p 2pc

Keeping high stacks in dance is op

[molten citrus]

it's about the gain of getting tier set

[random hare]

[molten citrus]

not about 2p2p being bis

[honest saddle]

exactly

for raid priority

we need to know %

[molten citrus]

^

very common thing to want to know

[random hare]

eeeh

[molten citrus]

all the info will get updated, as always, just gotta wait a bit

[molten citrus]

????

[swift tinsel]

I think he said he was still working on the aoe portion

Or hadn’t looked into it as much

[random hare]

They need to buff assassination st

It’s dogshit man

[swift tinsel]

Better add more targets to arterial

Oh wait

Or CT

Oh wait

[random hare]

[molten citrus]

ye i mean they just made changes hours ago, can't expect anyone to finalize new shit that fast

[random hare]

It’s fine I sandbagged sin hard

I did 900k dps st on theater of pain

[swift tinsel]

They sure went about it in a “don’t touch single target” approach

[random hare]

Because I was pvping crims for 1 min straight

We came up and saw 2 banners

[swift tinsel]

Lmfao

[molten citrus]

[random hare]

I won the duel tho

Kidney cloak shadowstep kick

Everything used

Healthpot too

[molten citrus]

lmfao

[clever delta]

7am and fuu still sleeping, that's not acceptable

[honest saddle]

I bet hes gonna be reallllly happy when he wakes up

KEK

[worthy pulsar]

and goes fuuk

[random hare]

60% on sub bladeflurry means we evicerate at higher targets?

Or still 5?

[swift tinsel]

I think that’s still getting figured out

Bc it was goofy with armor before buffs

Plus they need to fix how it interacts with blades bc it doesn’t

And turns shadow dmg to phys so it gets reduced

[half comet]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[honest saddle]

I have a feeling that with the Authority buff and apl optimizations, we didn't lose very much ST damage

the problem with that is that everyone gained the authority dam

because I have done more damage on the test dummies than I have ever done since the hot fixes went live

but im 90% sure its just authority buff carrying

[round latch]

new pins

[honest saddle]

don't trust those numbers yet

eleem himself said more apl work to be done

[round latch]

plz tell me what to trust

i dont know

[honest saddle]

time

[round latch]

i need ur opinion

[honest saddle]

dont be a fuck

[round latch]

i could be if i wanted

dont dictate anything

[honest saddle]

you are being one

I just repeated what eleem literally said

[round latch]

u got either the perception nor the information to do so

oh u arent even close

so shh

[honest saddle]

he literally said, he thought the apl needed more work with changes

thats why it was initially more st

and they lowered the pin

[round latch]

yellow yaplord living to their name

[molten citrus]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1317321735569408030/1317321817798479872/E66C1502-FB56-4021-97BC-BA8B22911F23.gif

[honest saddle]

I dont know why you are being rude for no reason tbh

[random hare]

Chill out cuh

@honest saddle I apologise on his behalf he’s a little crazy sometimes

(Always)

[brisk onyx]

[honest saddle]

I feel unwelcome

he touched me in no no spot

[random hare]

I can give u my talala in ur no no spot

[honest saddle]

I suddenly feel better

[random hare]

[kind edge]

I love this chat, people past from hell dooming blizzard bcz the nerfs, to touch no no spots

[weary summit]

New sub changes are good, no? Quick glance and it seems like a buff or were we expecting something else?

(I have no idea what I am talking about)

[dreamy oasis]

Tldr nerf to tier 4set hits our burst hard. Look at pins

[steel zinc]

No and read pins

They are a net nerf when everyone has 4p

Very early on we are pretty strong

Like week 1

Week 2 everyone has 4p its very meh

[weary summit]

Understandable

[steel zinc]

Our niche just got nuked. Not nr1 burst. The rest was already meh

[thorny kestrel]

darn, was hoping it would be secret meta

[weary summit]

Who'se nr1 burst? Unholy?

[steel zinc]

You can still hold and spam rupture if you have high stacks. Some adds and some dmg Amp bosses you do that

But dmg Amp going from 30% to 20% and 4p shadow damage part going down by 66%

[round latch]

havent been on ptr at all for this patch but ild love to hear someone that was testing stuff

[steel zinc]

They had to kinds nerf the tier but also kinda not

[thorny kestrel]

casualaddict

[round latch]

like was that far ahead

[thorny kestrel]

but with the nerfs, haven't seen

[steel zinc]

The burst part was what made sub imo so fun during testing

[round latch]

yeah im more concerned on the numbers,like its still a questionmark for me

[steel zinc]

That is the number

[random hare]

Guys

Havoc 7% need

Nerf*

[steel zinc]

If you pull now big with cds you will do less 100% but you will do more on smaller pulls with no cds

[round latch]

yeah

its obvious

[steel zinc]

Like idk rogue looking all 3 specs very doom

[round latch]

yup it looks like all 3 specs are bad

[lapis hatch]

Made a fire mage alt not gonna lie

[round latch]

already got one

[lapis hatch]

Lmao

[round latch]

[steel zinc]

We need another 10% aura buff and assa like 15% outlaw also like 8%

[molten citrus]

You guys really dooming rn?

[steel zinc]

Assa is completely omega pepega dps

[round latch]

a scent of dooming

yes

[steel zinc]

But aoe assa got buffed

That's the play

[brisk onyx]

i am a doomer

[molten citrus]

Where are you getting this from?

[steel zinc]

Playing living on ptr mostly and looking at the sims

[torn storm]

Worst class in the game yeah we’re dooming

[molten citrus]

[round latch]

yeah im skeptical for this as well,bleeds buffed,precision cap to 8 makes little sense though 😂

its back to arterial shock

or points towards it

[molten citrus]

Worst class in the game

[round latch]

[lapis hatch]

Arterial isn’t even a buff they just took a less viable build and made it so it likely sims close to our bis build

[round latch]

it was a favorite idk

[molten citrus]

Sims just aren’t meant for comparing different classes/specs

[torn storm]

My guy we had 1 viable spec for next season and it just got a sizeable nerf

[molten citrus]

If you’ve been testing on ptr and think it’s underperforming, just be patient the patch hasn’t even launched yet

[steel zinc]

You also won't play omega melee like amirdrasil since the spread cleave this raid and mythic endboss reads like ... well not in favor

[lapis hatch]

Let’s all gear for sin and then 11.1.5 blizz makes us switch to vers build

[steel zinc]

99% if testing sectech didn't work or still doesn't work with tier.

Like it's dooming time

[round latch]

well sin will gear on sub stats for m+ so we gear for both sin and sub

[molten citrus]

Dooming is such a waste of energy man

Idk how any of you do it

[steel zinc]

The louder you doom the more the more changes

Holy paladin not in raid comp let's instantly buff it

[molten citrus]

Have you heard of this thing called outlaw?

[round latch]

its saturday morning,ppl waiting for the coffee machine

[steel zinc]

Yes

[lapis hatch]

That’s my secret, I’m always dooming

[molten citrus]

They doom no matter what, it does nothing

[steel zinc]

Dmg profile is very meh for raiding imo

But I play all 3 and I like all 3

[molten citrus]

Ye and dooming has never changed that, or anything else, for them

That’s all I’m sayin

Same

[steel zinc]

They need to be more people dooming

[round latch]

bruh

[molten citrus]

I disagree

[round latch]

its just negativity

[molten citrus]

It just creates an echo chamber

[molten citrus]

Yep

[steel zinc]

Rogue is one of the vanilla specs and they imo neglected it so much its one of the least played classes in the game rn

[round latch]

rogue is special

if u want attention u want mage

we are subtle

by default

[steel zinc]

True but the dev for mage is now on shaman

He/she switched

[round latch]

[molten citrus]

I don’t think so

[elfin hound]

Doomed mages

[round latch]

idk but it would make sense based on every patch having mage stuff in for like a year now

[molten citrus]

When sub is in rwf you will look back in this day

And realize we were chillin all along

[pliant topaz]

preeeeach

[molten citrus]

[steel zinc]

That doesn't matter imo. Like it will be sub like all past tiers on the last boss (expect amirdrasil) and even then we played sub. Idc about early tuning when 99% of guilds will kill the boss with +5 10 itemlevel

Rwf is not a metric its the last beta test for all other guilds. Tuning after race is important imo

[lapis hatch]

One rogue in raid for atrophic DR doesn’t make it a strong class

[midnight wren]

Is it possible to put all bursts in 1 button?

[steel zinc]

Also this

[molten citrus]

More tuning usually happens during and after the race

That’s why it’s so pointless to get worked up

[steel zinc]

Yes and that's what i am saying

[pliant topaz]

why is it important? litearlly how does it ever matter?

[steel zinc]

I ain't worked up just fact we are not strong to compete

[honest saddle]

well it matters to the other 2000 rogues that will get CE

[molten citrus]

It’s possible to do with some abilities, but it is not the optimal way to use them

[pliant topaz]

i legit dont get how tuning ever matters for raid

m+ sure, but raid? like kekw bro

[molten citrus]

It literally doesn’t matter to the other 2000 rogues

[honest saddle]

I can see both sides to that coin

[steel zinc]

Well we see things differently then which is fine

[pliant topaz]

idk, i dont see any argument for anyone whos not pushing top ~30 how tuning for raid is even remotely relevent

[lapis hatch]

I think CE rogues care how their class is tuned lol. Pretty broad generalization

[molten citrus]

Also I feel like you’re contradicting yourself

[honest saddle]

I think the distinction isnt if they care, but if it matters

[open vortex]

sub in big pulls still feels nice on ptr

idk

[pliant topaz]

if you think you cant get CE because your spec isnt tuned high youre the most delusional dogshit player on the planet. gg

[open vortex]

doing 14m dps is pretty cool

[steel zinc]

Ofc but idk the "fun" you have with a spec is the potential maximum output you can achieve. That's why a there is a meta

[jaunty heath]

I just feel like it was uncalled for that’s about it

[molten citrus]

The point is that it doesn’t matter how they are tuned right now. Based on PTR and early sims. It’s pointless, it really could not matter less

[pliant topaz]

thats in your head. not an objective thing. sure big number big fun but like okay? idk compare youtrself to other rogues? just pointless

[jaunty heath]

Like our sims weren’t out of line?

[lapis hatch]

Agreed

[molten citrus]

Sims aren’t tools for comparing specs

[pliant topaz]

meta for raid also isnt real. its an m+ thing mostly. but also m+ is like 3 dps specs. the chance of your spec being one of thsoe 3 is very low

[steel zinc]

I like a big number. 99% of players that raid m+ do

[jaunty heath]

No what I’m saying is

Was there really a reason for a nerf

On the other hand

It probably wasn’t intended as a nerf

Idk

Bummer that’s about it

[molten citrus]

Our ST was insane

Burst was insane

Tier was too insane

[jaunty heath]

Our ST was not insane

Have you looked at other classes

That’s far from insane

[lapis hatch]

Tuning does happen in stages tbf. Balance certain things out and have gameplay how you want it, then tune accordingly

[torn storm]

lol just say you don’t know what you’re talking about

[lapis hatch]

Or so I’d hope

[torn storm]

Self report

[molten citrus]

In keys it was definitely very good

Compared to other specs

[jaunty heath]

This Tuning ist for keys and we knowing

Know it*

[steel zinc]

Yeah sure .... you even played any ptr? Even with 30 stack buff we were very meh

[jaunty heath]

They don’t tune week1 for keys ain’t happening

[molten citrus]

You can’t know how you’d perform in the raid until you step into the raid

[honest saddle]

you dont ever tune raid tier for m+

[clever delta]

I'm suspicious that kush will play dh this time around

[honest saddle]

they tuned the RAID tier for raid

[keen verge]

Did someone do the math on sub tuning already? O.o

[lapis hatch]

It’s in pins

[steel zinc]

Been there done that

[molten citrus]

On what? A target dummy?

[golden kelp]

do we know what number the % increase for tier is now?

[honest saddle]

Can we even make any claims about our damage on PTR testing? Our tier was broken and not functioning most of the testing

[steel zinc]

No m+ raidtesting. Rogue was a joke. If you think so different fine but saying we are in a good place numbers is disagree

[molten citrus]

We definitely weren’t a joke in m+ like what

[steel zinc]

That's the issue also. Bugs were sometimes in our favor and our dmg is pepega

[steel zinc]

Idc about m+ minigame. I do raiding

[molten citrus]

Idgaf about raid testing class performance on PTR

[tulip gorge]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[pliant topaz]

its okay, you didn hear? they closed all offices, wont be coming back again until tier is over. Ive heard no more tuning until 17.2 either but idk how true that one is

[honest saddle]

Armin

you are starting to piss me off

with your non emotional logic

[pliant topaz]

oh no

anyways

[steel zinc]

You like 5 years old?

[molten citrus]

This same shit happens every tier

[pliant topaz]

its just weird, how this happens like every single tier

yea

LOL

[honest saddle]

lol

[molten citrus]

And every fucking tier we are proven right

[lapis hatch]

Yeah but what if

and hear me out

They hear us dooming pre-tier

[pliant topaz]

like people were litearlly crying in 10.0, 10.1, 10.2. 11.0 and now 11.1

[lapis hatch]

And do something about it

[steel zinc]

That you play one rogue because of the buff? Cool wouldn't bring a single one if you had the buff

[tulip gorge]

rogues turning into boomkins

[steel zinc]

Bro please. Rogue isn't fine if you can bring other specs 2x times. Last time that was in amirdrasil because of the rework

[molten citrus]

So now we’ve moved the goal post to rogue is bad unless you bring 2?

[honest saddle]

I mean, if you always brought 2x rogues that wouldnt be fair either

[tulip gorge]

rogue isn't fine because it's not overpowered

[tidal marsh]

Rogue isn't fine until you don't even care about raid buffs anymore

[steel zinc]

Ofc if you set a goalpost for one because of the buff.

[elfin hound]

You guys love chatting about pointless things huh?

[molten citrus]

That’s just illogical man

[jaunty heath]

I don’t think people are saying rogue is bad, at least I’m not

[honest saddle]

MANY classes are brought just for their buffs

[jaunty heath]

I just don’t think it deserved a nerf

But that’s just me

[pliant topaz]

the tier needed the nerf

33% just for a 4pc is kekw

[steel zinc]

This I am saying rogue is not like tank dps I am saying you won't play it if it hadn't a raid buff

[pliant topaz]

its just the compensation buffs werent enough so it ended up being a nerf

[jaunty heath]

Ye hence I said earlier it probably wasn’t their goal

Which is unfortunate

[molten citrus]

That nerf sim % isn’t even finalized btw

[steel zinc]

You know what was also fun for me atleast getting tier and actually having an impact on gameplay

[jaunty heath]

You might assume they have the resources to do numbers

[molten citrus]

Stop dooming for zero reason

All I’m trying to say

[jaunty heath]

Bro who’s dooming

Relax

[pliant topaz]

theyll do another tuning patch soon after first week its litearlly happened every single patch idk

[jaunty heath]

Can I say I don’t like my number going down

For no reason

[steel zinc]

I am of a different opinion.

[molten citrus]

I’m chill

[jade urchin]

isnt the tierset nerf maybe even a good thing for rotation clarity

depending on how its gonna change

[pliant topaz]

eh, its net neutral

[steel zinc]

No only positive stuff here ..

[pliant topaz]

u can still not finish

and its fine

but now, u dont have to spam ruptures

[jade urchin]

i meant for people trying the spec

not for the ones invested in it

[molten citrus]

Wasn’t even directed at you

[pliant topaz]

bro no ones trying this spec. but sure i guess

[jade urchin]

for sure no one would try after reading rupture 3 times before flag

without understanding the context fully

[jaunty heath]

That’s the last part you would care about when you start playing this spec honestly

Tons of other hurdles first

[golden kelp]

im surprised sb wasnt fixed here

hopefully next pass..

[jade urchin]

valid

[pliant topaz]

anywayas, time to go watch dk get 3-0 then go bedge. stop dooming, rogues gonna be fine, prob not best dps, btu not all classes can be best dps thats not how reality works. bosses die with any comps outside of rwf. ggs. tmrw we grind to GM mashallah

[round latch]

gn habibi

[teal prawn]

gn mi bober

[tribal blade]

how DARE you tell ME to stop dooming

❤️

[left ledge]

Does our tier work yet?

[keen dome]

60 million sectec dream is dead.. I am sad.

[left ledge]

Ah nvm it was a tier nerf not bug fix

Communication skill gap I guess

Unlucky

[tribal blade]

S1 sub started in a super dogwater state and eventually ended up in a good position

[keen dome]

Yeah

[tribal blade]

so i'm (mostly) optimistic the same thing will happen again

[keen dome]

We're going into S2 in a good position, we just won't be godking megacrit man

[left ledge]

Yeah I finished most of prog before it really became good

[sinful zephyr]

It will be fine I´m sure...bug fixes go a long way

[keen dome]

RS fix is huge

[left ledge]

So I’m not feeling it lol

I just get the dogshit buggy parts

Very fun

[keen dome]

The 6% rupture buff is funny

[tribal blade]

yeah it's def a bad feeling if you're in a guild that progs fast

[left ledge]

Guess I’ll wait for farm again to have an enjoyable spec!

This tier I had to wait for farm to have bosses that didn’t bug out every pull!

Yippee

At least RS combo points were fixed

[keen dome]

Ye

[left ledge]

Cancerous interaction

Next tier they’ll get sectec working with blades

[keen dome]

Didn't they fix that?

[tribal blade]

they fixed that too 😉

[sinful zephyr]

wasnt that fixed?

[tribal blade]

it was

[left ledge]

Oh damn

[keen dome]

haha

[left ledge]

Color me surprised

[tribal blade]

yeah they did a round of fixing some sub bugs

[keen dome]

Gotta look at the positives. We lost our big crit potential to some extent with tierset, whcih is sad, but we're in a good spot.

[tribal blade]

that was actually most of sub's dev time for S2

was fixing bugs

[left ledge]

I think literally anything beats tww launch

[keen dome]

Yeah, it was pretty dire then

[tribal blade]

sub in M+ was comical

it was so bad that even i who got title x2 times as sub when it wasn't meta swapped to sin

[left ledge]

Yeah I had to do assa prog

Until court and Queen

[keen dome]

Then we got the 11.0.5 changes, which looked pretty awful, but were actually pretty great.

[tribal blade]

i went sin in raid once we hit rashanan

because it was kind of like "why are you playing sub on rash and ovi when you can play sin"

[kind edge]

Based

[keen iron]

is it a big nerf??

[keen dome]

Look in the pins

[tribal blade]

no, you write me an entire essay right now

[keen dome]

Alright well if you insist but I'm picking the subject

[tribal blade]

damn

[keen dome]

Which reference style?

[tribal blade]

uh

definitely one of them 😉

and cite wikipedia for sure

[keen dome]

god no

10% is such a big aura buff, haha

[tribal blade]

after seeing how people are weaponizing wikipedia on subjects and people i know a lot about

i don't trust that site anymore

[keen dome]

Yeah. It's good as a point to start on but you've gotta use it to springboard to robust sources.

[tribal blade]

we'll see what it nets overall

[keen dome]

the +10% to nimble is interesting too and I'm curious how it'll be in M+

Poor TC's having to redo the APL again though. Pour one out for them.

[vestal escarp]

GM subbies

[keen dome]

Good morning!

[vestal escarp]

Rise and doom!

[keen dome]

Naaaah, Rise and GLOOMBLADE

[vestal escarp]

Where the hacha post saying we need the baseline buffed if tierset is nerfed?

https://tenor.com/view/monkeys-paw-paw-monkey-gif-17535679

[keen dome]

[cursive vapor]

morning

[vestal escarp]

YOOOO NIMBLE BUFF

BP BTFO?????

[keen dome]

Right?? Super curious how it's gonna work out

[vestal escarp]

Sin got a chunky buff too

It's subover

[keen dome]

It's never subover, it's just suboptimal.

[clever delta]

What buff sin got

They got like nothing really

[vestal escarp]

This rupture + past tierset

[upper plinth]

Who tf uses Wikipedia as a credible source of information? It has a reason its banned from scientific Work 😅

[tribal blade]

yeah it's pretty bad

[sinful zephyr]

do we have information on how the UB procc chance changed?

[vestal escarp]

I think notes are missing a 10% to evis

Must have been a typo in editing

[thin lion]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vestal escarp]

[random hare]

sub says hi chat

its not overtuned on ptr

we need a buff

deleting

[clever delta]

Dude

Only sandbag allowed here

[vestal escarp]

[random hare]

sub is rly bad

atm

omgomg

the nerf was huge

plz buff ???

[molten citrus]

Did you actually

Delete the ss?

[balmy thorn]

Are we still going to play with flagellation in m+?

[fallow nimbus]

Yes

[molten citrus]

Yeah

[keen dome]

Tasty mastery

[paper stirrup]

So aura buff and tier nerf, is it overall buff or nerf or kinda same?

[molten citrus]

pins

[cursive vapor]

https://tenor.com/view/check-the-pins-linkin-park-from-zero-colin-brittain-gif-13255032845286341308

[vestal escarp]

Win streak ended at 24

Tactical nuke denied

[mortal bronze]

we rise with release week tuning

[worn ivy]

⚖️

[frank musk]

Just play O Fortuna everytime blizzard releases patch notes, you might even laugh at the patch notes that way.

[random hare]

rookery +15

[proper latch]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[steel zinc]

they implemented the stuff to ptr just noticed (resent tuning stuff)

[random hare]

like what stuff?

[steel zinc]

tier nerfs

dmg amp is now 20%

10*2 = 20 and shadow damage part got nerfed

but 10% aura buff

You played trickster?

[round latch]

irrelevant but sin looks prime again for shuffles doesnt it

bleed them out

[frank musk]

Bleed me dry. -Shuffles

[molten citrus]

yeah i think so, still not very happy about it either

it's like the exact opposite of pve, all dmg in bleeds not enough in envenom

trickster might get more popular for sub now

that +10% base aura damage is also sick

[round latch]

yup,im still skeptical for sub pvp though,i think sub has wild potential but trimming our highburst is not rly the best thing

like idk

prolly gonna have to test it

havent played ptr at all,have to admit

[molten citrus]

well it isn't any different from live right

other than no s1 2p

[round latch]

yeah think so

[molten citrus]

so like

it's just +10%

[round latch]

yup

[thorn stream]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[molten citrus]

the side effects of losing Duel remain to be seen but

[deep adder]

medizinmann

[molten citrus]

i'm optimistic

[round latch]

maybe the pirate again..

anyway,will investigate,no reason to spam pvp stuff here

[molten citrus]

[random hare]

ye i play with him everyday

since season 1 DF on ptr

[thorn stream]

guys what u think about sub rogue with this tunning

?

[deep adder]

pinned message

[deep adder]

he's pretty good yeah

[tribal blade]

something something PVE something hate PVP something something

(this is the exact reaction from most people in my guild the second you mention pvp)

[frank musk]

I like it, but it needs more fire.

https://tenor.com/view/dumpster-fire-chicago-nascar-fire-dumpster-gif-686973680180245936

[molten citrus]

sub rogue is so bad guy !

[frank musk]

Yeah man!

Now i can never get my sponsorship!

[thorn stream]

i just care about single target cause im raider :(((

[molten citrus]

that IS single target homie

[round latch]

(its everywhere,every guild,something pvp something something idk im hungry) 😂

[tribal blade]

i'm literally about to eat in like 10 mins

[thorn stream]

i dont think so XD

[tribal blade]

hype

[thorn stream]

4m single thats not fair

[round latch]

pasta slided into the boiling water 2min ago,need to check btw brb

[tribal blade]

that's sub's "niche"

[steel zinc]

Cool damage amp boss

[tribal blade]

can have basically all ST talents while in aoe build

[frank musk]

If our single target would be 4-5m dps this patch, i dont think anyone here would react sad but they would be on edge.

[tribal blade]

oooooo sexy

[molten citrus]

the damage amps don't amp the other people

??

[steel zinc]

Gotta explain game? 😄 Burst classes do good on dmg amp bosses?

[thorn stream]

anyone have sim after this tunning ?

[molten citrus]

no reason to be a dick bud

miss me with that

[molten citrus]

not yet, eleem only put together some quick sims. there's info in the pins

[steel zinc]

You used Evasion? 😄

[tribal blade]

kush for sure licking his lips seeing sub dam do that

[steel zinc]

DH is also really good

[keen dome]

Big sub damage! Big sub damage!

[steel zinc]

like who knows what he will play either dh or rogue

[molten citrus]

i just enjoy pointing out that there's no reason to doom 😄

[steel zinc]

Gotta Doom bro for more buffs

[tribal blade]

this is actually 1 time i'm not on the doom wagon

i don't see a need to doom yet

[molten citrus]

dooming doesn't get you anything

especially not in here

[keen dome]

While we could do with more changes / fixes, I think this tier is looking extremely good for Sub.

[tribal blade]

all the big bugs getting fixed is very chef's kiss so i'm happy

[keen dome]

Yeah!

[steel zinc]

This is the doom

[tribal blade]

and next few weeks are gonna be a rollercoaster of tuning

[void ocean]

what is this optimism 😛

[steel zinc]

SecTech working would be actually nice to see

[tribal blade]

next 1-2 months even

[keen dome]

That's the really big bug I want to see fixed and fully expect to be fixed on launch, or week 1.

[tribal blade]

i know it's nuts, i need to turn in my sub channel card

[keen dome]

Otherwise I think we're in a great spot, and will be having a good season. Of course, we probably fall off at the super high end but

I'm bad so I'll just enjoy the comfortable middle zone of big damage

[steel zinc]

This will be DF S2 all over again

start sub decent then falls off like a cliff

[keen dome]

I don't think so

[tribal blade]

sub was actually quite a high output spec the entire of S2

[keen dome]

I think we'll be solidly middle-to-upper of the pack, fine in M+ up to like 16 or w/e and comfy. Play it if you wanna play it.

[tribal blade]

just got killed by aug creating godcomp

but very regularly during S2 i would get into pugs and outdps the mages

i remember there being a chart of the dps of specs and sub was near the top

it was just incredibly difficult to slot in a sub rogue into godcomp

[keen dome]

We still need some critical fixes but there's a lot to be positive about.

[tribal blade]

get into godcomp group and have to be like "yeah, better PI the bear"

[molten citrus]

i'm hyped to play sub this season

[void ocean]

cause they r mages in a pug... meaning they so shit no guild wants them 😄

[keen dome]

I'ma lso curious how it'll feel in pvp without shadowy duel

[steel zinc]

after it got buffed in like week 7

[vale pine]

last minute changes

[tribal blade]

honestly don't remember that, but it got there eventually 😉

[random hare]

is that single target

i think it is ye?

[molten citrus]

it was uh

rixxa?

idr

[shrewd grail]

https://gyazo.com/6d2d79df5bb85cbd6e8492e58f1046fe

stop spreading copium

with 200M burst

[molten citrus]

what

did we watch the same run or

[vale pine]

So quickly looking at changes

its quite a nerf

burst is down and we overall get a slight nerf

but burst is basically what we had, our overall damage is not good

[shrewd grail]

they dont want rogue spam rupture and BP like arcane mage was about to spam Abar

outalw still dogass ?

[molten citrus]

this is also copium

[shrewd grail]

https://gyazo.com/7007340c35cf5496f97bc906228f837e

workshopt first pack

yeah

plz spread more cope

[molten citrus]

dh wq is still bugged and ross died as soon as popping CDs twice, etc. the entire sample is scuffed af.

[vale pine]

One thing to mention

back to rotten on ST

[keen dome]

Yay

[vale pine]

F

[keen dome]

Everything stays the same

[vale pine]

hmm

vs.

[granite bear]

just go and play feral 🤓

[vale pine]

not that big of a nerf tbh

fairly similar output

[molten citrus]

some people are so man i can't even

[vale pine]

new 4p still good

just not that extreme

[native zodiac]

is the tierset now fully working?

[molten citrus]

still has the same bugs

[steel zinc]

no sectech doesnt work

[keen dome]

That's a pretty decent gain, at least

[leaden prairie]

14% !

nerf !

[vale pine]

30% down to 14%

haha

would say thats quite a sizable nerf

before

[keen dome]

Sliced in half.

[sinful zephyr]

so overall it is an improvement to season 1?

[molten citrus]

pre nerf was 2.551 and post nerf is 2.554?

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tribal blade]

time to bust out the old

[molten citrus]

erryting gon be iree brudda

[steel zinc]

so we are doomed? 3k dps loss?

[molten citrus]

dunno - kinda confused about how fuu said it

[hardy snow]

pre is 2570, now is 2554? what's the change of thousand cuts?

[steel zinc]

I think he might be cooking

[hardy snow]

10% is strong. nerfing tier is good. less change to behaviours

[molten citrus]

yeh at the end of the day it's fine

[jade urchin]

making it less reliant on 4set makes start of season feel better too

[steel zinc]

bro we are omega cooked at the start of the season

all bugfixes + 10% aura buff

[tribal blade]

ya bruda!

[steel zinc]

like at the start I wouldnt be surprised if we are topping everything

[tribal blade]

yeah most likely we're topping at the start, sub is also a very strong spec in heroic

[molten citrus]

sub is terrible guys !

[keen dome]

Can confirm this. Every tier, just so good in heroic

[leaden prairie]

sub is so dead i heard

is this the assa chat

[molten citrus]

super dead

[steel zinc]

m+ is w/e for me all that matters is raid

[molten citrus]

@shrewd grail said so

[steel zinc]

raid sub is dead

I am dooming

[molten citrus]

!

[steel zinc]

once everyone has tier

sub is dead

[keen dome]

I guess you could say that we'll become..

Suboptimal

[molten citrus]

!!

[keen dome]

😎

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[clever delta]

Back to rotten than?

[tribal blade]

sub chat is now dad chat

[clever delta]

Already make my talents !

[steel zinc]

https://clips.twitch.tv/create/IcyTiredLapwingTebowing-RhPQvf6vJh3CmXxI outlaw is bis confirmed not twisting any words

[tribal blade]

yeah rotten a big talent with 50% surprising strikes

[hazy breach]

Was at 2.6 before, and they also buffed depths enchant by like 75%

[molten citrus]

link seems broken? at least for me

[molten citrus]

ah kk

[leaden prairie]

nice link

noob

[hazy breach]

But ye sub is gonna be fine, burst is still really high

Just not absolutely cracked high

[molten citrus]

i think we got off very good

they could have just nerfed the piss out of the tier set, but they compensated the damage

or tried to at least

[tribal blade]

this could have been so much worse

[keen dome]

Also potentially long-term benefit of those buffs if they fix / change other stuff too. A..

sublime future

[tribal blade]

they really could have completely shit the bed with it

[molten citrus]

frfr

[tribal blade]

at least reading the changes they had a decent understanding of what they were doing

not perfect, but close

[hazy breach]

Atleast they buffed trickster

[tribal blade]

the sin changes were confusing

i'm so happy to see the trickster buffs to compensate

[hazy breach]

Because a tier nerf and aura buff wouldve likely just meant DS all the way

[molten citrus]

are the sims fully done? like the -2.5% is concrete? or

[tribal blade]

i think that's mostly what's making me happy

[hazy breach]

No

[molten citrus]

kk

[keen dome]

I'm really curious about the +10% to nimble

How that's going to shake out.

[tribal blade]

if they had treated this like they had last tier they would have 100% not buffed trickster and completely borked everything up

[tribal blade]

for sure BP target count goes up

[keen dome]

I assume it'll result in a slight change to the amount we BP at, right?

Haha, high5

[tribal blade]

haha nice 😉

10% nimble damage is pretty hefty so i'm assuming it'll be something like 7-8(?) targets we start BPing

just completely talking out my ass

[steel zinc]

https://www.twitch.tv/kushlul/clip/IcyTiredLapwingTebowing-RhPQvf6vJh3CmXxI should work now idk

[molten citrus]

ye now the embed also worked

[tribal blade]

he says right there if you're talking about hitting a dummy

"not realistic"

[steel zinc]

yup more a meme

😄

[tribal blade]

haha gotcha 😉

[steel zinc]

because kush always says delete outlaw

prob first nice thing he said about outlaw since forever

[tribal blade]

yeah kush is a big sub fanboy

[shrewd grail]

Dw @molten citrus Linked 200m burst sub we are s+ tier

Trust

[grand flame]

Make Outlaw a ranged spec...

[molten citrus]

sub so bad

omg

[shrewd grail]

Dont be shy link motherlode

2 b behind

We so back oomfg

[molten citrus]

yes link the scuffed key that had deaths etc

stop trolling

[clever delta]

Kush is also build different

[molten citrus]

don't know why you think the spec being good is such a bad thing, but it's cringe

[molten citrus]

Well wounded quarry is still bugged

The DH is like -350-500M damage there with no bug

[tribal blade]

i remember yoda was talking about that bug

it's very, very significant

[molten citrus]

Ye

[clever delta]

Like 200k ST

But much bigger in aoe

[molten citrus]

They funnel like 60% of some spells’ aoe into their main target

Some shit like that

[clever delta]

Is assa down bad

[dry plank]

Could you link boss fights please? Especially st ones? Overall just not very informative

[clever delta]

Or what all people doing here

[molten citrus]

Not my key

The ST is good

[flint parrot]

!symbols

[molten citrus]

Not the best in the game but better than assa’s m+ ST by a long shot

[molten citrus]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[dry plank]

Better than assa not very promising xD

[hazy breach]

Sub should still be solid. My opinion was that sub before this change had enough burst to be strong regardless of how well tuned the spec was, now its gonna be solid as long as tuning isnt horrible

[proper latch]

Why is Coup damage split in little chunks?

[molten citrus]

Just a comparison because assa has been the popular spec

[mint swift]

That’s a feat like

Nearly every dps has

[molten citrus]

Ye it’s on par with most specs

Besides the specs that have been broken, that caught nerfs today

[hearty girder]

And the funnel passive was double dipping

Which was fixed, idk how impactful that is

[molten citrus]

That’s just how they designed it

[molten citrus]

Hasn’t been fixed yet

[molten citrus]

the fix hasn't been pushed to PTR

[hearty girder]

I guess that’s true

My bad

[molten citrus]

np

i assumed the entire post had been pushed too

i think some of the stuff was pushed already, but everyone in the DH disc is saying that the WQ fix isn't in yet

[steel zinc]

Arms still 2.9 and mage is omega busted

[molten citrus]

sims are sims man

[hearty girder]

I’m surprised destro and fire haven’t caught nerfs

Enha too

Or ele

[molten citrus]

i agree mage was looking strong af

enhance did catch another nerf

[hearty girder]

Here?

I don’t see it

[molten citrus]

not today's post, the one earlier this week

[hearty girder]

I know but that one was pretty minor

[molten citrus]

enhance is not doing the same damage as s1 anymore, comparative to everything else

it caught multiple nerfs/changes

[tribal blade]

have to remember mage is also blizz's favorite child

but likely more tuning incoming

why do i say likely, inevitably

[hearty girder]

Obviously it is

We’re just talking about right now

[hearty girder]

That is true, still strong though

[molten citrus]

still strong, but not "god comp" strong at all

[hearty girder]

While specs like fury get nerfed when all they got in aoe is 5 target cleave

[brisk onyx]

wait, so does the tier set only change the tooltip? It doesn't actually change the numbers in the PTR.

I'm a little confused

[molten citrus]

wdym

[hearty girder]

It’s not pushed on ptr at all

Tier set is still 6%

[brisk onyx]

hmm

[steel zinc]

Problem with fury is if you buff its ST you also omega buff its cleave. Imo this makes it hard to tune.

[hearty girder]

I know

I mean it’s not that hard when all they have is 5 target cleave

They should excel at it

If someone who has uncapped aoe is doing more damage to 5 target than fury, that’s a big problem

[molten citrus]

it is

[hearty girder]

So some things are, while others aren’t?

[molten citrus]

ye thats what i was saying earlier

[hearty girder]

Ok

[brisk onyx]

[molten citrus]

[brisk onyx]

I'm really confused

[molten citrus]

confusing ik

[molten citrus]

whats the issue

[brisk onyx]

Do you mean that the changes including rogue have been pushed, but the changes to DH have not?

[steel zinc]

yes

some are in and some arent

[brisk onyx]

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/were-back-its-over-gif-24400541

@molten citrus what is it this morning?

[molten citrus]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-gif-27687032

[wild hornet]

Have the tiersets been fixed in the ptr for now or are they due to the patch release?

[molten citrus]

there's still a couple bugs

[steel zinc]

No doom in raid

Still Sectech not fixed

[wild hornet]

Which ones are still persisting

[molten citrus]

info on bugs in pins

[molten citrus]

no doom allowed in raid, i agree !

[lilac stag]

no nutter butter is sadness

[keen dome]

It's impossible to doom in the raid this tier

It's got a jazz soundtrack

It's too upbeat.

[lilac stag]

ska can find a way to doom

https://tenor.com/view/challenge-accepted-gangs-of-new-york-daniel-day-lewis-gif-11330857893797231898

[keen dome]

Hm.

Ska raid tier....

[hazy breach]

The doom always finds a way

[lilac stag]

The raid looks fun so tuning unfortunately be what it be.

[hazy breach]

Even if youre the best spec you can doom about incoming nerfs

[lilac stag]

#deletedeathstalker