iirc it takes a while to stack
#subtlety
alpine wraith
think most of the stat budget for that one is in the agi not the hit
codex let me check
uneven scarab
Dayum
swift tinsel
I'll need to double check bc that was a whiiile ago
possibly an aoe hit
my scribbles are hard to read sometimes
vestal escarp
this a W
uneven scarab
Trueee
vestal escarp
sub is invisible to blizzard right?
uneven scarab
yes
vestal escarp
vestal escarp
nah plenty of specs will probably hold on to it
i think most 90s classes would like the higher baseline mainstat of cards
uneven scarab
when was the last time sub got a patch note more than “bp buffed by 15%”
hazy breach
still only doing 30 second ToT
The threat part is 60m instead of 6s
Not the 30s buff
willow pawn
i see thoughgt it was just a buff at this point
uneven scarab
i think most 90s classes would like the higher baseline mainstat of cards
Haste really good for warrior tho
idk will be interesting to see when its better
alpine wraith
ok codex seems kinda decent
2.4m normal hit with lingering up
then the cleave around 300-400k no crit
alpine wraith
now just to test if it is uncapped but that is something for another day
used to be
seems kinda nice for burst
you do all your cds and as blades ends you SNAP it
swift tinsel
looks uncapped
just pulled a bunch of mobs with no setup
sure you can game it for some noice damage
alpine wraith
it is already quite solid vs other trinks
so might be a strong good trink to just farm
for DS it is quite strong too it syncs well with blades buff
gray cradle
Hey guys, during my rotation sometimes between globals I generate extra combo points which leads me to overcapping cause I use a builder again. Does anyone know why this happens?
uneven scarab
Shadowcraft
you gotta pay attention to your cp right after you finish
to see if you get a refund
uneven scarab
Might be the rs bug
gray cradle
Im not talking about back to back finisher
uneven scarab
Delayed cp’s
gray cradle
oh
uneven scarab
Thats fixed on ptr tho
gray cradle
whats rs
gray cradle
where can I see what exactly this bug do?
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker
uneven scarab
might be able to find it on there
gray cradle
tyty
dusty totem
Is it a big dps loss to shadow blades before sectec instead of after?
uneven scarab
We do it right after rn just for the duration on blades, it doesnt affect secret tech
so kinda pointless to have before
hazy breach
It affects the physical hit, just not the clones (after patch it works on clones too)
uneven scarab
Based
gray cradle
so kinda pointless to have before
wouldnt it increase ST dmg by 20%?
uneven scarab
Log tf in
gray cradle
oh he just said
dusty totem
ahh so after pacth we will press before
uneven scarab
wouldnt it increase ST dmg by 20%?
As of right now like eleem said only works on the first hit
hazy breach
ahh so after pacth we will press before
No its the exact same as now
The clones strike after 1s and 1.3s, so using it after still makes the clones hit inside blades
Theres practically no difference, just do before if you like that better
gray cradle
It affects the physical hit, just not the clones (after patch it works on clones...
how do you guys even find this out btw
thats awesome
gray cradle
i thought it would affect all hits lol
swift tinsel
The shadow clones have minds of their own, and those minds are usually krangled
uneven scarab
Love when akaari steals my dps too
pulsar mauve
Is the new raid expected to be dwarf friendly ? I'm trying to look for data on the bosses see if stoneform will be useful, but I'm not sure where to look at
molten citrus
you can probably go on ptr and look at the raid journal if you wanted to
molten citrus
vestal escarp
Boosting is so boring ong
tribal blade
<:peepoGIMME:801844050214518834>
molten citrus
Boosting is so boring ong
better than pvp boosting though fr
shit is such a chore
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vestal escarp
worthy pulsar
hey guys, why shadow blades after secret tech during shadow dance for ST?
molten citrus
hey guys, why shadow blades after secret tech during shadow dance for ST?
because blades does not work on tech
worthy pulsar
but in AoE u do blades before tech?
honest saddle
what are you guys doing at the beginning of p2 on ansurek? My first dance is fine, but second comes up right as the first wrest goes off, and then the add dies like 2 globals later
it just feels wasted but it may be best spot
molten citrus
but in AoE u do blades before tech?
afaik it doesn't matter whether you blades before/after tech in aoe
it's a very tiny diff
also
blades not working with tech was fixed on ptr
just not on live
worthy pulsar
roger that thanks
worthy pulsar
is shadow of death normally used without cds available?
uneven scarab
symbols of death?
u pretty much always use it with dance, but as trickster there can be a scenario where you only symbols and secret tech
Cuz u dont have enough cdr on dance
worthy pulsar
oh yea symbols of death.
ah okay thanks
twilit phoenix
is the storm gem really better than thunderlords for ST?
feels like if proc haste on storm it's kind of a dead gem
twilit phoenix
oh damn, L
keen igloo
is the storm gem really better than thunderlords for ST?
With less gear thunderlord should sim higher in ST
random hare
because blades does not work on tech
It does on ptr only
uneven scarab
ye thats new to ptr
random hare
uneven scarab
the clones now benefit
random hare
Ye
molten citrus
It does on ptr only
brother
you and mewo
read like 5 messages below that
homie
lilac stag
read like 5 messages below that
No one got time for that
random hare
That’s like saying buy food at floor 2 and get the fork at floor 7
Like I just wanna eat quick u know
woven ruin
molten citrus
lapis hatch
do we macro pots and trinks to flag or shadow blades?
lilac stag
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
mortal crag
!bug
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker
tribal blade
what are you guys doing at the beginning of p2 on ansurek? My first dance is fin...
i just 1 dance that cd set, you kinda have no choice
with how much more damage everyone does now it's very unlikely you're able to x2 dance 1st platform
tribal blade
do we macro pots and trinks to flag or shadow blades?
you can macro pot to flag since it lasts 30 secs, some people also macro transmitter to flag (which i wouldn't do personally)
since transmitter has positioning requirements it's better to press it directly so you can prep for certain parts of fights if your flag target isn't in range (eg court)
house of cards you can most likely just macro to blades
tribal blade
fury you will truly lose yourself
molten citrus
tribal blade
that's the ultimate ook ook
lilac stag
that's the ultimate ook ook
it’s giving me panic attacks of will I get healed or not. 
Getting more comfortable with defensives, still not second nature like rogue.
tribal blade
i was reacting to zeross
tribal blade
it’s giving me panic attacks of will I get healed or not. <:ALOO:109903355869110...
at least you have some on demand heals 😉
i still think they should change vial to be instant
that would make the spell way better imo
crisp lion
__Subtlety Macros:__
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Co...
Why is it not recommended to Marco sec Tec and cold blooded?
lilac stag
It’s a dps loss
tribal blade
hm i have to set up not having sectec and CB macro'd
not a huge deal right now, but next tier it's a bigger deal
crisp lion
Why is it a dps loss? What’s the difference between marcoing vs hitting it manually?
tribal blade
Why is it a dps loss? What’s the difference between marcoing vs hitting it manua...
if you CB the 2nd sectec in cds it hits harder than the 1st
and then iirc you can just play CB as only using it in flag+blades
lilac stag
at least you have some on demand heals 😉
Vers & Feint don’t need heals 
tribal blade
Vers & Feint don’t need heals <:HOLY:1250893440183570533>
true!
wait doesn't fury have 10% dr when enraged
which is basically always
and the health pool of fury is bonkers too
short radish
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
tribal blade
(i haven't been keeping up with warr, i'm talking out my ass)
lilac stag
yea but standing in shit because range can’t drop it in a good place is a heart stopper.
tribal blade
true true
lilac stag
The intermission green shit is thoughts and prayers half the time.
crisp lion
if you CB the 2nd sectec in cds it hits harder than the 1st
Thanks for explaining, did not realize that
worthy pulsar
in mid fight, if i already have rupture and SnD up, do i just press flagg+blade+sod+sd all at once?
tribal blade
in mid fight, if i already have rupture and SnD up, do i just press flagg+blade+...
if rupture's going to last the entire of flag i would probably just flag>evis>dance+symbols>strike>sectec+blades
worthy pulsar
is the evis after flag just for SnD?
uneven scarab
Its to get the stacks going
stacks up with cp’s from finishers
You should already have snd from the ss->evisc at the start of the pull
worthy pulsar
ah okay no wonder.
short radish
!wa
random hare
sub sucks 
tier fixed
gg
ok the entire tier set is garbage for sin aswell
looks fixed tho
tulip gorge
so sub is dead?
jolly pasture
Aintnoway, its gonna be sub tier like always
tulip gorge
praying for good tuning 
alpine wraith
rip sub too young
brisk onyx
sub sucks <:o7:1123771847155126313> tier fixed
fix what?
honest saddle
I cant imagine a world where tier makes us even burstier
where we arent S tier for prog
things need to die and they need to die quickly
and the tier makes sub incredibly good at that
well, better than we already were.
whether or not our damage compared to others is good overall, is down to tuning, but its very unlikely sub wont be very very good at prog
molten citrus
I cant imagine a world where tier makes us even burstier
I think ross is trolling
alpine wraith
sub will be a cool prog spec yea
we get big dmg from tier and transmitter is good from the get go
also easy to farm grim codex for decentish burst
then also able to play ascendance on wep for good craft on first week
honest saddle
I can't figure out ptr yet
gonna have to wait for you guys to sim it out
cant tell when to just spam rupture
as deathmark with max stacks you just wanna evisc
but then you reset stacks
and you hate life
need rules
alpine wraith
sub is quite scripted right now
tulip gorge
rotation wise tier is fixed 
honest saddle
it's not resetting too much anymore?
honest saddle
no...
jolly pasture
Isnt sectec resetting?
honest saddle
yes.
tulip gorge
oh you mean that
honest saddle
and there were multiple bugs where it wouldnt reset at all
and would get stuck at 10
or stay at 0
tulip gorge
does it actually reset the stacks to 0?
jolly pasture
This is the type of bug they dont fix until next patch ptr
crimson trench
sub is quite scripted right now
how so?
tulip gorge
damn small indie company
jolly pasture
Then you get bugless tier for 1 week before equiping new tier
Someone explain why sectec is coded in this way, they keep having bugs constantly.. why cant it be single hit from the player
alpine wraith
even in ptr it is quite scripted
only thing tier set changes is the treshold you want to gamble
rotation has nothing new apart from holding using finishers that can reset it some secs before flag right now
honest saddle
I think to be fair, hachadino
compared to most tiers
thats quite a large gameplay change
alpine wraith
haha actually true
molten citrus
CDR can vary a little, but otherwise it’s very scripted
alpine wraith
most people cant control their rng
but also this is critical thinking a bit more in m+ than in raid
if you really want to risk resets before a pull ends or other things
vs just rupturing after dances
alpine wraith
not really opener wont really change
honest saddle
and wont risk evisc
alpine wraith
there is no way to get high stacks kinda
tulip gorge
I hope we won't have to do cringe prepull stuff like getting stacks 
tulip gorge
there are dummy toys, aren't there
honest saddle
cant use in raid
tulip gorge
but you can use in m+
honest saddle
you would just change your rotation for the very first pull of each boss
to maintain stacks from trash
oh
molten citrus
Not if entering combat resets
alpine wraith
you dont change opener on bosses in m+ because if you already have snd you dont evis
you just rupture then go into dance
alpine wraith
it resets to 0 yes
honest saddle
gotcha
yeah, no change then
wonder why they changed tier ilvl so much on ptr
its absurd
730
alpine wraith
someone did an oopsie
honest saddle
yeah, oopsie
kind edge
sub sucks <:o7:1123771847155126313> tier fixed
Seen casualaddict playing on ptr as sub, and its nasty asf.
He is with this build on ptr
Seen both just yesterday, its really impressive. But who knows how other specs and classes will be
tribal blade
this sums up ptr in a nutshell
vestal escarp
The usual ptr stuff
keen dome
this sums up ptr in a nutshell
Schrodiners meta
jolly pasture
wait he is also playing tea
Frelycraft
tribal blade
Schrodiners meta
t r u e
keen dome
OP until you look at it
tribal blade
wait he is also playing tea
i assume this is cdr farming for more dances build
haughty mural
yea thought so
tribal blade
but playing nado makes me want to cry
latent finch
nado feels so bad with that delay it has
vestal escarp
Maybe someone has yet to realize that subs energy gains are flat and that starting somthing with double energy means basically nothing
tribal blade
not exactly sure how you start dance without premed
keen dome
Carrying combies from a prior fight?
If it's a key I imagine you can just plan it all out and minize it save the very first pull
tribal blade
well whenever i play with tea i do notice i'm able to spam buttons quite noticably more
but yeah no premed is pretty fried
you'd have to go into each dance with like 3-4 CPs
vestal escarp
well whenever i play with tea i do notice i'm able to spam buttons quite noticab...
Huge placebo bro
tribal blade
to guarantee your sectec is max CPs
tribal blade
Huge placebo bro
well if it's for farming cdr then being able to press buttons more means something
tribal blade
but losing CB with our new tier set seems pretty bad
vestal escarp
Two storms
It's 14 cps in the brst scenario possible
7 seconds out of a dance charge
vale pine
this sums up ptr in a nutshell
lol
vestal escarp
tribal blade
i'm not advocating for his build, i'm just trying to see his reasoning
vale pine
kush already farming tier list points?
alpine wraith
have to begin early
vestal escarp
i'm not advocating for his build, i'm just trying to see his reasoning
Me too im just discussing vigor or energy
alpine wraith
so you can correct yourself 3 times
tribal blade
i'd love for them to redo the class tree
alpine wraith
is that a threat
tribal blade
the fact that there's so much energy talents shoved into 1 corner is so feels bad
keen dome
I like vigor a lot.
vestal escarp
Idk even if ol takes vigor
keen dome
Vigor is a cool talent i wish we could take even if it doesn't actually do anything major outside of the feel being better. And feel is important, imo
vale pine
so you can correct yourself 3 times
i see where this is going, begin early so you have 8 tier lists on your social media
alpine wraith
vigor could be good with new tier because you can pool more and not use finishers kekw
tribal blade
vigor could be good with new tier because you can pool more and not use finishe...
big brain
alpine wraith
sub was never going to be good the numbers are just not there
but we are bursty at least
im fine with that
tribal blade
<@402271887549399050> sub isn’t that good anymore
that's a good thing tbh, means we won't be on the nerf hammer radar
tribal blade
good point
keen dome
Nah, they won't nerf sub in the raid. They'll nerf another class instead
vestal escarp
Yeah zeros right
alpine wraith
we might get nerfed just because like in sl we get a super power spike early
alpine wraith
with tier set and things from previous tier being good
i wish i can at least get the ring
before we get donezo
time to farm clips
alpine wraith
i mean it is what it is
molten citrus
Yeah zeros right <:gato_stare:1134377003714355282>
those words do not go together 
alpine wraith
crits on sec tech are big
random hare
Way less dam
@tepid trellis
random hare
crits on sec tech are big
Ye
vestal escarp
those words do not go together <:MONKAS:984237220422615090>
Hence the stare
keen dome
All about the big crits. That's what being a sub rogue is about
alpine wraith
i also did a little explanation in one of my lates why the tier set bug is kinda funny how bad it can get
keen dome
hitting sectec at the right moment and watching a load of damage explode out
random hare
Way less dam
@hazy breach
alpine wraith
you go from CRITTING from 33m to 17m
if that hit bugs out
when you are fully roided out
tribal blade
joy
alpine wraith
it is so sillyu
alpine wraith
well we are kinda balanced in a way
after doing those hits we kinda go into meme mode
keen dome
We just need to teach the clones to shadow dance
alpine wraith
yea stupid beasts
keen dome
🙏
vale pine
when they fix the tech bug we are back to blasting
common subtlety problem ^^
vale pine
<@212854714197344256>
Tea is not that much behind cold blood
random hare
Tea is not that much behind cold blood
Tea auto activates quite often
So u can do some errors on it
Cb is kinda straightforward
random hare
Ye
vale pine
so both have some annoyances if you min/max
random hare
Cb is easy tho
alpine wraith
i wish there was a reverse tea like spend 70 energy empower x finishers
alpine wraith
so pooling to 200 made sense for sub
random hare
U already do pooling for sin
Realz doesn’t like giving multiple specs the same special way of playing a spec
alpine wraith
idk rogue always pooled since like 2005 nothing much changed over the years apart from the adhd situations last 10 years
arms kinda has the same problem where they have things that benefit from spending rage but cant really spend more rage
sub has a lot of energy in cds for some reason
or none outside
upper narwhal
It’s 2025 you can’t say those things
vale pine
same as being the wrong race
there is a certain irony
we choose trinkets based on dps diffrences
and we often pick one with 0.5% dps diffrences
"HUGE UPGRADE"
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vale pine
and the same people are like
"oh ye, play the race you like"
when its literally triple the dps of many trinket decisions
keen dome
Fashion -> damage
vestal escarp
sub has a lot of energy in cds for some reason
How noticeable is the fix on craft?
random hare
Or you just macro cb to secret
I would spend 100 hrs a week for 0.1% dps
haughty mural
coincidence that you chose undead there 
vestal escarp
If you don't crit 2 evis in flag you already lost dps to that tech
haughty mural
just crit 
vale pine
And u want me to play wrong <a:AINTNOWAY:1050211099158511626>
Oh no absolutely not, i just think especially the newer players make their life harder if they opt to min/max everything
vestal escarp
Hacha mentioned it a bunch of times already
vale pine
for us advanced players, we will do whatever gives more dps
vestal escarp
This tier sub is gonna have bigger variance
vale pine
Probably, mostly because of trinkets tho
and it looks like you could just keep using transmitter
🙈
vestal escarp
With bigger and more shifted burst it comes natural
Critting stuff in flag windows is gonna be more impactful
alpine wraith
yea transmitter is funny
because as you get more gear agi becomes better
so it stays almost in same power as house of cards
mythic upgraded house of cards
btw
vestal escarp
Until a nerf thats good, no pressure to loot hc cards
thin lion
so ur telling me that I will have to use a s1 trinket in S2 all the way? 😄
vale pine
Critting stuff in flag windows is gonna be more impactful
think it is already kinda like this
we have low damage outside of cooldowns atm
vestal escarp
It is sure
vale pine
its just even more during cooldowns in 11.1
vestal escarp
Now should be more
haughty mural
and it looks like you could just keep using transmitter
surely they nerf transmitter
barren wolf
well it just means youre stronger early season cause you dont rely on dropping a bis trinket
keen dome
Oh no absolutely not, i just think especially the newer players make their life ...
I agree with this a lot, yeah. Also not everybody wants to play at the tippity top level. Some are fine with shortcuts or less optimisation while still performing well (Me, it's me, I'm lazy)
Having options for everyone is cool
alpine wraith
no real reason to nerf it tbh maybe they buff other trinkets
vale pine
surely they nerf transmitter
Possible, its as good as the best s2 trinket but i think we are the only spec using s1 items
barren wolf
i would not want to play transmitter another season if i was a sub player though
fuck minigames let me press button
keen dome
same
alpine wraith
well problem is mythic card comes from 3rd to last boss
strange sail
spymaster could also see some use 😄
haughty mural
i mean IT IS a reason to nerf it ?
having to use old season trinkets if you want to minmax should be a reason, no ?
vestal escarp
Yeah they dont like that
keen dome
What's our competition on it, outta interest?
keen dome
alpine wraith
and some 2 min classes too
haughty mural
*and can make use of mastery
haughty mural
and some 2 min classes too
yea true
alpine wraith
or well specs
clever delta
keen dome
tribal blade
no good raid team is gonna give house of cards to a 2 min spec
that would be an insane move
strange sail
What's our competition on it, outta interest?
almost all on use classes
keen dome
it's 3 minutes, no?
tepid trellis
no good raid team is gonna give house of cards to a 2 min spec
priest healers wants it as well
so if transmitter is equal for us
tribal blade
priest healers wants it as well
omfg disgusting
graceful perch
I checked some sub logs and noticed most ppl use shadowblades after sec tec. I usually press SB before symbols/dance, any advice?
tulip gorge
There’s a 2 minute trinket in priory too
tepid trellis
it would be going to them
keen dome
Alright no priest healers, no on use classes.. Alright. I've got it: I'm just inviting warrior tanks.
strange sail
priory is worse budget but longer duration right (also gives highest stat)
alpine wraith
priory has some budget in the extra stats you give to people
so it will sim worse but even taking that one into account house is a bit more
strange sail
its 20s vs 15s tho
and it gives your highest stat
haughty mural
priory is 2 min
alpine wraith
yea but not all 2 min specs care about 15 vs 20 if the number is less
and well some of them may use priory
wheat edge
I checked some sub logs and noticed most ppl use shadowblades after sec tec. I u...
I dont play too much sub but I just follow the wowhead rotation and that uses blades after sec tec so just do that I guess 
alpine wraith
but they might as well use spymasters
strange sail
well you can farm priory too
unlike house 😄
but if your cd's last 20s priory should just be better
tribal blade
I checked some sub logs and noticed most ppl use shadowblades after sec tec. I u...
you should always use blades roughly around the time you press sectec
alpine wraith
idk you can ask those people we usually dont know much about others
tribal blade
usually right after
alpine wraith
rn i cant think any spec that would use priory vs house of cards
but maybe there are
tribal blade
enhance?
alpine wraith
competition is also a thing and also farmable
same as people using skardyn as sub
when we had no other on use
graceful perch
Tyty
strange sail
rn i cant think any spec that would use priory vs house of cards
bm think, mw (cause haste+20s)
tribal blade
yeah hunters for sure
alpine wraith
nice less competition for house then maybe
wheat edge
getting mythic priory via rng is probably easier than getting mythic house of cards 
haughty mural
yeah hunters for sure
depends
tribal blade
i think our competition with house of cards is arcane mage and x2 warr specs
and dk
tepid trellis
getting mythic priory via rng is probably easier than getting mythic house of ca...
considering i spent an entire tier not getting the m+ trinket from vault id say no
tribal blade
because that's our competition with transmitter
tepid trellis
i think our competition with house of cards is arcane mage and x2 warr specs
priest healer
haughty mural
im pretty certain some hunter specs/builds use it too
tepid trellis
also dont think warriors want it
tribal blade
priest healer
that too
strange sail
maybe boomie too
haughty mural
since they are essentially 1.5min cd in some trees
molten citrus
I checked some sub logs and noticed most ppl use shadowblades after sec tec. I u...
blades doesn't work on tech on live. this is fixed next season though.
strange sail
mm (dunno about sv) xD
haughty mural
it can
tribal blade
this season i had to deal with a heroic transmitter going to our arcane mage when i still had normal
and then listening to him talk about how he's just equipping a side grade trinket sometimes
and i was like b r u h
alpine wraith
you can get more mastery if you go engi helmet and wrists
for BIG CRITS
but also transmitter will net bigger crits than house of cards
tribal blade
if it's a minor loss to use house of cards i'm using that shit over transmitter
alpine wraith
yea i would not mind even using hc one
if it meant a little loss
just CRIT
anyway
tepid trellis
if it's a minor loss to use house of cards i'm using that shit over transmitter
same, unless the burst is needed
tribal blade
yeah just the clarity of having good mental is so much
alpine wraith
also the risk of failing transmitter
tepid trellis
on live
tribal blade
same reason why i dont play RS
me too dude
keen dome
good mental best mental
tribal blade
imp sht all the way in raid
tribal blade
at what % does the gap become too much and equipping transmitter is worth
omfg i just thought about using transmitter on the last boss of workshop
tepid trellis
id use transmitter if its 0.6% better
alpine wraith
depends how krangled it can get
bosses like ovi nax for ex would make changing easier
because it is so annoying
tribal blade
yes it's very boss dependent
M+ i think in particular is where i'd not want to use transmitter
because of huge pulls and the nature of how tanks move in keys
alpine wraith
yea for sure
i would even use priory likely for a while depending on dugeon(until i get house)
ToP has some deathtraps
and motherlode can also get finnicky with frontals
no idea about the new dungeon
tepid trellis
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
grand wyvern
Is transmitter still better if I have the HC one?
alpine wraith
you'll only know when you sim
you can try it with mimiron fuu posted the s2 strings in #tc-research
keen dome
yes it's very boss dependent
30-man heroic raids with transmitter, man. Absolute impossible unless it's the jumps
lilac stag
idk why they buffed sv more
lilac stag
I checked some sub logs and noticed most ppl use shadowblades after sec tec. I u...
Use sblades after Sectech.
gritty gorge
How Big of a dmg loss in keys would it be to just use eviscerate as a „spender“ in AoE- up to 7 targets?
With trickster obv
lilac stag
3% I think. Or maybe that was FW not up
tribal blade
i don't think it's enough where you're completely borking your overall
lilac stag
Do you not have BP bound?
tribal blade
i assume he's wondering for prio reasons
lilac stag
Pretty sure the prio dmg was inconsequential.
tribal blade
if you have a comp with high aoe output and not a lot of prio dam could be worth spamming evis
but in that case might as well play sin tbh
lilac stag
we need the eleem if this you get this spreadsheet bot command. Lol
hazy breach
How Big of a dmg loss in keys would it be to just use eviscerate as a „spender“ ...
~3%ish on 5 targets and upto like 8-9% on like 10+
tribal blade
so i'm guessing 7 targets would be around 5-6%
lilac stag
if you have a comp with high aoe output and not a lot of prio dam could be worth...
You’re striking anyways so just hit evis after it’s under 5 target? 
gritty gorge
i assume he's wondering for prio reasons
Yeah, its about prio mostly. Will have a Boomie in my group next Season. So no prio from him
vestal escarp
Unforch that trickster does so little prio but as you push higher keys you're slave to numbers
lilac stag
the scombo days are a relic of the past
lilac stag
Just have the enhance do prio dmg
Wait no shaman? Hahah back to assa for prio
nightmare fuel
vestal escarp
Boomie this seasons did same boss dmg as sin
Sin did way more prio and boomie more overall pad
Yet meta shifted towards boomie as the third option
digital cove
and vers buff
lilac stag
Yeah, its about prio mostly. Will have a Boomie in my group next Season. So no p...
A better way to look at it imo is can you burst the target down. Sub yes. The finishers become negligible so pump on everything and let Sectech delete the prio.
just have cds
vestal escarp
But we know that those things are not necessary since you can time the same keys with either rog or boomie
slate marlin
singular focus helps too
lilac stag
we don’t DS in here
tribal blade
But we know that those things are not necessary since you can time the same keys...
yes true, but it does help sway it in that favor
i watched the boomy in kira's team switch between boomy and sin after casual left their team
alpine wraith
yea forgot mark of the wild
tribal blade
and then landed on just playing boomy
alpine wraith
rogue needs to do around 5 to 7% more dps than any of the buffers
and also have decent utility
lilac stag
Outlaw will save rogue
tribal blade
raid buffs are very significant
alpine wraith
rn assa utility was kinda fine in drs and silences but
lilac stag
6% buff
alpine wraith
in the end surv trumps everything
so you drop the weights that is assa and get something else
even if dmg is ok
lilac stag
bombs are amazing, but I dunno if it trumps everything
vestal escarp
Atro is more dr than motw
keen dome
I'm going to save Rogue with optimism and purple
alpine wraith
but dead assa player is not more dr than bear
tribal blade
the worst is whenever you're grabbing a full pug for a key from lfg
alpine wraith
assa is comically squishy vs the meta specs
barren wolf
Atro is more dr than motw
is it considering it doesnt work on all dmg?
alpine wraith
not saying there are worse ones
vestal escarp
No way you're tellling us that drood has more surv than rog 
lilac stag
wdym 3% leech is amazing
alpine wraith
cant generalize rogue because outlaw and sub are relativaly tanky
lilac stag
I think arms has more survivability on ptr than assa
vestal escarp
is it considering it doesnt work on all dmg?
Abs not, im not sure in this rotation what works on atro or not
tribal blade
it's just the sheer utility druid brings makes it an obvious choice over rogue if damage is equal
lilac stag
and battle res
alpine wraith
if only we still had smokebomb
barren wolf
and being ranged
barren wolf
and uh erm erhghhghg natures vigil
tribal blade
yeah curse dispels in stonevault are massive
alpine wraith
innervate too
tribal blade
and GB
vestal escarp
tribal blade
it's not a huge deal, but it's just the sheer stupidity of that whole situation that makes me mad
vestal escarp
Btw i think enrage dispel is meaningless until like 19s 20s
barren wolf
nope it isnt
if youre doing 15 then the tank is also worse, cause if he was a god gamer he wouldnt be in 15 ofc
tribal blade
some of the enrages are like what +50% damage done or something
barren wolf
so a enrage is just as dangerous in a 15
vestal escarp
if youre doing 15 then the tank is also worse, cause if he was a god gamer he wo...
Yeah what im saying is that im not shivving to compensate for you not knowing how to handle that mechanics
vestal escarp
But i didnt
tribal blade
dead tank in 1st pull of NW if you don't shiv 😉
alpine wraith
you can kidney the enraged boi for 8 secs instead of shivving
vestal escarp
The dude in gb
alpine wraith
before the mongos begin aoe stunning
vestal escarp
But theres others you cant kidney
barren wolf
there is a slight difference between using combo points and a gcd
and just a gcd
alpine wraith
i was talking the NW one
but yea the gb one too
just cheapshot duh imagine not being sub
kind edge
there is a slight difference between using combo points and a gcd
and just a gcd
So true
barren wolf
come free with your shadow dance
alpine wraith
dont worry you still had the free one from stealth anyway
because who opens with cs
ornate lake
How is sub rogue looking in 11.1 M+?
alpine wraith
makes me remember how useless subterfuge is for sub
barren wolf
me
ornate lake
Dead or mega dead
keen dome
How is sub rogue looking in 11.1 M+?
Purple
vestal escarp
Sin has 6s to cs after opening
alpine wraith
sub in m+ will be funny
you will have people that are clueless and reset their stacks
and others that begin pulls with like 90% extra dmg
keen dome
Haha
hazy breach
sub sucks <:o7:1123771847155126313> tier fixed
Btw the tier is not fixed. It resets more than twice as much as it should and the tier does not buff sectech most of the time 
alpine wraith
he means the perma 10 stack
hazy breach
Ye ik
alpine wraith
but still even before we would never be a super big overall spec anyway
hazy breach
Just saying that its not fixed just because its not perma 10
vestal escarp
AAAH IM POOLING
hazy breach
"why are you doing 1M dps this pack bud?"
"ill have grongo damage for next pack dw"
vestal escarp
Chat cant kill this trash with 3% hp left sorry im pooling for next pack of 4 mobs
Soz
Meanwhile overall:
📉
alpine wraith
i mean with first dance and full set stacked
even non cd dances at beginning of pulls are going to be roasty
now if only we could get some more cps somehow to fit two sec techs in a first dance
barren wolf
sounds, fun maybe
alpine wraith
rip mfd
vestal escarp
Turns out that the 3% hp left mob does a tankbuster and the prot pala is also pooling defs
Rip key
alpine wraith
should have kited unluck
vestal escarp
^
hazy breach
sounds, fun maybe
It plays roughly like that already and i personally think its fun. But i watched yoda play it on PTR and he did not sound like he was having fun 
alpine wraith
i was having fun
just some people are too used to adhd classes
remember when casters had 8 sec cast times on some skills?
meanwhile fire now
COMBUSTION
BRBRBR JUMP JUMP JUMP
think casters that actively casts a lot in cds are so rare
barren wolf
It plays roughly like that already and i personally think its fun. But i watched...
being exodia sounds fun
rewards good gameplay
anyways, ill play windwalker
alpine wraith
in bfa you had double trink things it was very fun too
although udertuned
IM FONTING
barren wolf
font coral 🤤
alpine wraith
font pvp badge it was
to get the meatest
i even remember farming neck because the stones azerite power scaled the best and got nucko agi
barren wolf
sorry i wouldnt know sub shit for bfa, after it was killed i didnt care about it anymore
alpine wraith
not many did tbh
and assa was so good vs it
it was funny using my sub set for the assa spec that used 3 nothing personal and the one that could proc vendetta randomly
NP was like 55% of my dmg
graceful crown
why did they ever bring back rupture and not keep nightshade or w/e the bfa equivalent was 
fathom adder
unprune
lilac stag
nightblade was awful in its implementation.
and if it was here now, the shadow dmg wouldn’t work.
haughty mural
anyways, ill play windwalker
not assa anymore ?
barren wolf
not assa anymore ?
hopefully ww will be good and ill be asked to play it
i dont care enough to ask for it though
prog is short and i want the best for the guild
haughty mural
i see
slate lantern
Mw is looking pretty damn good tho so less likely someone would ask for WW
lilac stag
until mw isn’t
lilac stag
I base my decisions on fuu tier lists. If it’s wrong I’m assuming I didn’t account for numbers sometimes getting reversed.
slate lantern
Fuu tier lists for all specs wen
lilac stag
already out
vale pine
but please don't share it publically
haughty mural
or still a shado-pan angle
vale pine
(if it isn't obviouse, the list is alphabetically ordered)
wraith sphinx
I've posted it to reddit
vale pine
haha ye
void hound
wait a second
vale pine
i mean, each of them got made for fun and are at least some patches old ^^
void hound
survival is some dude hiding in a bush just like sub
void hound
ah true
alpine wraith
sub one is cooler because it has a hood
void hound
they are meant for each other
umbral relic
Got a point there
void hound
dave and ???
daring thunder
so many specs in druid tier again... insane
daring thunder
well true... bad tierlist then
umbral relic
Yeah thought we were the “big brain” discord…
slate lantern
Dev is mage Aug is priest
Restoration is druid and restoration is shaman (but switched) 
rocky ocean
rocky ocean
sub one is cooler because it has a hood
I always saw it as hair
vale pine
thin lion
make sub great again 
alpine wraith
it will be great trust
at least for 1 week
just get 4 set first week and blast before it gets rolled
rocky ocean
slate marlin
no
jaunty heath
slate marlin
Whats the point of goremaw on currwnt sub tho
alpine wraith
likelyt because it sucks
vestal escarp
Placeholder
alpine wraith
it had potential if they added some finisher dmg to it or something
but just did a ctrl c ctrl v
and nerfed its dmg
although they did reduce the cd at least
slate marlin
Replace it with shadow blades refunda a charge of sod/sd
vestal escarp
Replace it with shadow blades refunda a charge of sod/sd
No thats the placeholder death perception
alpine wraith
if it was like the one in legion it would hit for around 11m as a crit
that would be kinda decent
eh
1 button BAM
rn with rotten it hits for like 3m-4m at most ish
without trying to do anything fancy
slate marlin
No thats the placeholder death perception
lets have both
vestal escarp
cyan lava
If you have supercharged combo points and 7 points total, does it waste the supercharged points or does the finisher do extra damage and count as spending 10 points
lilac stag
Additive
vestal escarp
Latter
cyan lava
Neat
Was terrified I was wasting the fuck out of my puntos
@hazy breach the icy-veins guide says this, but the bot command in here says don’t do this
hazy breach
I know
cyan lava
Which one should I follow
alpine wraith
you can
hazy breach
Thats under the easy section
alpine wraith
but it is a little win to do it diff
hazy breach
Its better to not macro them
But if you are just starting out its a fine thing to do so you get used to the spec
As mentioned at the top of the page
cyan lava
Neat ok
random hare
Btw the tier is not fixed. It resets more than twice as much as it should and th...
wait really? why would it remove it twice as it should
do clones remove them?
alpine wraith
yea if you are in dance you do not get the buff removed but the copies can remove theirs
and do less dmg
hazy breach
And BP has 2 hits per target
alpine wraith
yea well assa had the same problem
alpine wraith
and with rupture ticks
random hare
15% chance is just rly high man
even if its fixed later on
15% is alot to remove all stacks
like wtf are they thinking about
hazy breach
Should be fine if its 15%, sims has it averaging like 6.7 stacks
alpine wraith
yea we dont do many finishers outside dance
contrary to popular belief
apart from rupture too keeping that in mind
in between big cds and the dance in there or two you do like 2 ruptures
and maybe 4-5 evis
random hare
Should be fine if its 15%, sims has it averaging like 6.7 stacks
higher is better
10% should be great
its like weaponmaster to lose all ur buff
feels like ass man
vestal escarp
Gamba patch
random hare
its like reverse outlaw, u press rtb and u have a chance to get nothing at all and lose dps
alpine wraith
you wont really gamble a lot
alpine wraith
i mean you can but it is not that worth and when you would gamble it is just after finishing a dance or so not before cds
random hare
im more of a rogue main than outlaw main
alpine wraith
so losing stacks there is whatever
random hare
i just theorycraft outlaw alot
vestal escarp
Sorry zeros i will remember that
alpine wraith
like if you are doing 150k dps
random hare
np i forgive i forgive
alpine wraith
losing stacks there is not that impactful
tepid trellis
Sorry zeros i will remember that
dont apologise to him
alpine wraith
you will get them back
tepid trellis
do it
tepid trellis
higher chance he will mute you than me
random hare
get him koffing
!
why would he mute me im not vrgl
besides hes not stealthi either 
tepid trellis
vrgl wasent muted he was sent to bahamas
random hare
wait true he went to the bahamas
vestal escarp
For free?
final wasp
frank musk
The Gulf of Subtlety.
lilac stag
or get their flag parried
Punishment for playing deathstalker.
frank musk
Yes, and your stealth gets removed when you get splashed just a little too hard by the gulf.
When the dev that is supposed to fix your stealth breaking because the wind blew, and asks his boss what do? all rogues in unison will simply say 'what do indeed'
steel zinc
Btw the tier is not fixed. It resets more than twice as much as it should and th...
Pin this so devs know please please
pallid inlet
"Devs" haha
hazy breach
You mean like the already existing pin that says the tier set isnt working?
edgy zenith
Pin this so devs know please please
bold of you to assume the devs are looking at this discord
lilac stag
What if we pin it twice?
lilac stag
One pin for shadow dmg and one pin for the physical dmg
steel zinc
You mean like the already existing pin that says the tier set isnt working? <:ke...
Yes
No meme actually pin what is exactly wrong from this week
hazy breach
I mean its the exact same thing as the previous week
lilac stag
Clones were not last week