mine always lumps it as one
#subtlety
swift tinsel
hazy breach
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/VTf4tWm8Z96B1gjL?fight=23&type=damage-done&source=1&ability=-280720&view=events
If anybody feels like they want to help here is a log of me just hitting the dummy and doing nothing besides casting symbols+dance into cb+sectech
Its got perma 10 stacks of the 2p, yet most of the hits are 2.4 and not 4M which they should be
wide shale
gloomblade? will we be using gloom in 11.1?
hazy breach
I suggest you read my message again
Its literally only testing sectech
might be more helpful
swift tinsel
Big thanks!
I'll try looking at the log link too and see if there's any pattern to the ones that are diff
swift tinsel
almost 60% of them are half the value
hazy breach
So my guess would be that the clones somehow roll the chance to remove the buff on themselves
But still benefit from the 2p on the player
swift tinsel
it would make sense and explain the disparity in that one test
hazy breach
But i have no idea.
Just another major bug with the clones
Because the spell is terrible designed so it bugs with everything
rustic raven
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
willow pawn
So sub is supposed to do way more damage than it already does
hazy breach
No for the most part
lilac stag
So my guess would be that the clones somehow roll the chance to remove the buff ...
SV hunter has something similar going on with its pet attacks as well.
swift tinsel
haven't had the split clone dmg but mine are following a similar pattern of doing 1.5 dam instead of the 2.X
hazy breach
SV hunter has something similar going on with its pet attacks as well.
Ye and its not like its a big deal, its just the central focus point of the set and the spec not getting +60% damage 
uneven scarab
brisk onyx
Is there a simpler conclusion to the above discussion? Sorry, I can't understand a little bit
brisk onyx
swift tinsel
I've had one out of seven do the right damage so far lol
some of the shadow hits are doing like 1.2x the phys with 10 stacks
lilac stag
Ye and its not like its a big deal, its just the central focus point of the set ...
It was flanking strike in their case. Had to do some digging.
hazy breach
Yeeeeep
lilac stag
In their case it was rng dbl dipping
swift tinsel
I'm trying to think of a diff or better way to look into it
lilac stag
I’m trying to remember, What was the initial issue clones had when realz first took over. Possible it somehow reverted to that?
lilac stag
No it was more than logs
hazy breach
they weren't attributed to our damage in logs
It still doesnt if the person logging is more than 100 yards away
They never fixed that
swift tinsel
I thought it did that even if you were in range
lilac stag
That’s like 1 day in other class bugs.
swift tinsel
cough cough mages
been doing more cb+sectechs and its hovering around 30% doing correct-ish damage
left ledge
glad to see we're going into season 2 just as polished as we did going into season 1
bug free
swift tinsel
we lit
lol back to back
so fucking scuffed
if I got 3 in a row I was gonna fly to Irvine and bang on some doors
10% of them are like that so far
swift tinsel
misty condor
!bugs
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker
tribal blade
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
errant tinsel
!wa
worthy pulsar
hey guys why do we first eviscrate after pull before going into cds?
swift tinsel
slice and dice
via cut to the chase, makes evisc grant snd duration per cp spent
also putting this here from the first 100 sod+dance cb+sectech plus 7 split clone attacks after Eleem noticed it being weird, will look into it more tomorrow
lilac stag
also putting this here from the first 100 sod+dance cb+sectech plus 7 split clon...
I’m wondering if there’s a mastery issue between player and pet
random hare
Quick sim in raidbots can coach u the best
molten citrus
nah
brisk onyx
lilac stag
Always was c tier. That’s why only 13 of us play it on live.
plush roost
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
brisk onyx
Always was c tier. That’s why only 13 of us play it on live.
Ohno
molten citrus
Wdym the permanent 10 stacks is fixed
so?
steel zinc
Sometimes 4p doesnt work on sectech
So another bug nice...
prisma void
Wdym the permanent 10 stacks is fixed
you'd have constant 10 stacks of winning streak and evis etc. wouldn't remove it outside of sd
that's how people did 5m overall in ptr dungeons
steel zinc
you'd have constant 10 stacks of winning streak and evis etc. wouldn't remove it...
Yes I know that that got fixed tested myself
Stacks drop now properly
twilit phoenix
for DS ST, do we finish at 5+ outside of DN?
steel zinc
What's with the sectech now not working with tier?
edgy zenith
for DS ST, do we finish at 5+ outside of DN?
iirc it's technically a gain to spend at 6+
twilit phoenix
iirc it's technically a gain to spend at 6+
do we prio Shadowstrike over the CTW shuriken while we're in shadow dance?
edgy zenith
yes, only CTW outside of symbols
edgy zenith
😳
crisp lion
There are times when I have sectec and shadow dance up but like 5-10 seconds on cold blooded. Do you guys think it’s better to wait for it to come off cd or just send and get sectec back on cd?
fallow nimbus
If the cb after that perfectly falls into cds then wait a bit
You want sectec on cd but you also want to plan for every cd window
So sometimes you don't instantly want to sectec
As DS you can't even because then you rip your cd windows
bitter igloo
@olive pike i heard you were a good sub 😊
molten citrus
<@140257103783657473> i heard you were a good sub 😊
there a reason you're coming in here to say it?
vale pine
agree, combat also had a nicer ring to it
round latch
What's with the sectech now not working with tier?
blizzard ddos
dw,they will fix it
steel zinc
agree, combat also had a nicer ring to it
Any way to report the Bug with the tier and sectech not working properly? (Expect ptr already done)
vale pine
if you made a in game report, thats perfect
steel zinc
if you made a in game report, thats perfect
Is this correct? The damage Amp stacks do not apply to sectech
From the tierset
vale pine
it seems like something is not working correct
alpine wraith
yea tier set is unreliable with sec tech
no idea why
sometimes it does
sometimes it does not
steel zinc
Yeah the clones seem to remove the stacks
So like a ticking dot removing it
I highly doubt this will get fixed
fallow nimbus
Another case of why multiple hits skills are bad and should be caster channel exclusive
alpine wraith
check you dont have an outdated apl
vale pine
^ delete "custom apl" if you have any
alpine wraith
if you dont know where it is it is in the lower part
check this part is blank or has an up to date apl
vestal escarp
What was in the datamined stuff?
hexed dagger
if you dont know where it is it is in the lower part
ah yeah that was it ty
I just installed a new version of the simcraft addon though while troubleshooting and even though wowup has it installed it's not in my addons folder for some reason
molten citrus
What was in the datamined stuff?
outlaw aura buff and some small tier set tweaks, some of which were just tooltip fixes iirc
vale pine
we're bugged again?
i would rather look at it the other way around, the fact that most things worked out of the box was surprising.
tribal blade
i would rather look at it the other way around, the fact that most things worked...
that's a good point!
and i should rephrase, i WILL be very disappointed if they don't bug fix it quickly
vale pine
mostly matters for raid
tribal blade
i've been coaching one of my raid team's warrs on sub because he wants to play an alt rogue and heard sub is busted
keen dome
What's this new bug?
keen dome
lol, it's absolutely that
Or it's just not properly apply to them as they're 'pet' summons?
alpine wraith
so that is why maybe 1 hit works and the other does not
tribal blade
man they really need to just redo sectec as a spell
completely
and code it as not pet damage
i'm not sure if this is my simpleton thought process, but it seems to make sense to me that they just rework things causing problems
keen dome
One big hit! One big hit! One big hit!
tribal blade
like sectec clones and shadowed finishers
alpine wraith
15 bugs go away
tribal blade
instead of just working on the problems that come up EVERY SINGLE TIME with them
keen dome
Make Coup and Sec one big hit plz
alpine wraith
hope they learned from nightstalker
keen dome
I require the crit feeling
alpine wraith
and sepsis/er
tribal blade
hope they learned from nightstalker
exactly! perfect example
alpine wraith
just kill
vale pine
i'm not sure if this is my simpleton thought process, but it seems to make sense...
the problem is complexity, the entire system behind subtlety is needlessly complex
tribal blade
yeah just kill them
vale pine
i talked about it the other day, but e.g. they split evis up in multiple parts
tribal blade
the problem is complexity, the entire system behind subtlety is needlessly compl...
true i have no idea what the inner workings are like
alpine wraith
for no reason
alpine wraith
it is like me getting weird routing through the congo
vale pine
which just modified evis damage
vale pine
now you have find weakness
so you need to check if find weakness is applied
then you have the shadow part attacks too
vale pine
which you need to white/blacklist
and you can just add more stuff to the list
secret is a 3 part attack with parts as pet attack
...
tribal blade
yeah it's all a mess lol
molten citrus
are the sims in the sheet all without bugs?
vale pine
kind of
the sims are how it is supposed to work
but also if there are new bugs
might be invalid again
mighty citrus
what was the name of our new 1.5m trinket again?
alpine wraith
but i think they wanted to add sec tech into the tier set reset
molten citrus
house of cards
mighty citrus
tyty
molten citrus
is the trinket
keen dome
so fast
alpine wraith
but forgot to trigger
alpine wraith
and document and send it
molten citrus
i assumed they were done without that bug
alpine wraith
yea that bug was never in sims
molten citrus
kk
have seen a couple people refer to sub as being "dead" since the perma stacks were fixed
and it seems very much not the case, just going off what we know thus far
vale pine
have seen a couple people refer to sub as being "dead" since the perma stacks we...
haha, thats every time
leaden prairie
you are nerfing it btw with that override
but ye
mgiht be an old thing you forgot
vale pine
ye likely
sly shore
is sub dead now the stacks are fixed plz answer @molten citrus
molten citrus
is sub dead now the stacks are fixed plz answer <@629463378250956810>
for you specifically, yes, i am afraid so
gleaming imp
omega dead spec
molten citrus
John Blizzard told me that he did not want KPB touching sub ever again
gleaming imp
it's Joever 
sly shore
John Blizzard told me that he did not want KPB touching sub ever again
You spoke to my dad?
nice
fringe palm
Can you tell your dad to work a bit more 
sly shore
He left before I was born, unfortunately
leaden prairie
Guys
I think I want a sub tier in m+
Can we get a sub tier in m+
I'm tired of assa
Someone get me out
alpine wraith
sub is quite strong because you enter most packs with good stacks of tier
molten citrus
i want the same 
brisk onyx
vestal escarp
Can we get a sub tier in m+
Sub is strong even now
gleaming imp
surely 
vestal escarp
gleaming imp
i'd assume sub is also doing just fine in sub 10 keys no?
gleaming imp
i mean, as a smooth brain Outlaw player, it can't be worse 
gleaming imp
ah so just like arcane i guess
leaden prairie
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
alpine wraith
kinda yea
leaden prairie
Sub is strong even now
I mean
It's similar to outlaw kekw
It's probably better maybe but
vestal escarp
So doodoo?
leaden prairie
You are like
vestal escarp
I would never
gleaming imp
it's ok, i mained arcane during last tier of DF, can't be more suicidal than that
leaden prairie
Kinda shit
gleaming imp
worst case, i'll go back to being a benched Feral
alpine wraith
sub is not hard at all
keen dome
It's always sub season if you are bad at the game as me. That's the secret.
alpine wraith
just punishing if you make mistakes
gleaming imp
but aren't most rogue specs sorta like that?
alpine wraith
as outlaw you can make a lot more mistakes but each of them can be lower in impact
gleaming imp
i can see Outlaw be somewhat more forgiving
vestal escarp
On the single instance mistake yes
remote shuttle
Well sub in live is fun atm, touched a 12M dps peak on NW 1st pack, ended pack at 6M
was a NW 12 iirc
vestal escarp
Wake could very well be best key for sub this rotation
leaden prairie
i can see Outlaw be somewhat more forgiving
Ye you can fuck up a few GCD every so often and it won't do shit
But also similarly
vestal escarp
Routing cant be varied much and packs align well with flag
leaden prairie
While fucking up certain things as sub can be very bad
If you fuck them up you are a giga noob
Like ye sending a sec tech at 1 cp is bad
molten citrus
the thing i think some people struggle with for sub is proper CD alignment/usage
vestal escarp
Ofc
leaden prairie
I think that's fine when you prog a fight
vestal escarp
Tc provides rules for that in a vacuum
leaden prairie
It's hard if you just go on to a boss randomly tho
Like on reclears first timing sub
Is a bit rough
keen dome
Like ye sending a sec tech at 1 cp is bad
Sending your 1:30's desync'd, too. I also once saw a guy never using shadow dance this tier.
vestal escarp
Yes
leaden prairie
Sending your 1:30's desync'd, too. I also once saw a guy never using shadow danc...
ok well
vestal escarp
Sending your 1:30's desync'd, too. I also once saw a guy never using shadow danc...
Bro thought he didnt need to cheapshot anything
leaden prairie
molten citrus
It's hard if you just go on to a boss randomly tho
watching Yoda try to play sub on PTR was... interesting. no offense to him, i think he just jumped on it randomly 
keen dome
He was doing everything else right but just no shadow dance. It was very strange.
gleaming imp
I'm guessing sub still macro CB into secret tech no?, i'm guessing we don't send shadow blades without Flag??
vestal escarp
No macros
keen dome
There's an optimisation you can do to send CB on the second SecTec of your bust. Since it's more damage.
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns, including Cold Blood+Secret Techniques and Dance+Symbols.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use House of Cards```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.Yeah no macros
keen dome
You can use the CB+SecTec though as I believe it's only a small increase that might make learning the spec more complex but. Ye, no macros
gleaming imp
ah, just wondering since wowhead had a few recommendations but looking into the rotation it didn't really click for me to have it
i don't think i've touched sub since it was busted in keys 
vestal escarp
Wowhead might recommend cb + sectech but as en easier entrypoint
leaden prairie
No macros
i mean look, sub has very little buttons, i think its fine to macro some spells if you also have the standalone button aswell, I have cb st so i dont have to ever worry about pressing these 2 buttons at the same tmie, but i also have a standalone sec tech so i can do the cb second st mnimax
vestal escarp
Very little buttons is an overstatement but sure thats the point
keen dome
Ye, end of the day it's about making sure you can play it comfortably, and you don't need to minmax everything day 1 if you don't want too
leaden prairie
Very little buttons is an overstatement but sure thats the point
Well I just mean I have less than outlaw
worn cape
so we will macro House of Cards to Shadowblades? Good to know.
leaden prairie
Not sure why
keen dome
Playing it well even with Macro's is good damage. And then you can take it further once you are comfortable.
leaden prairie
But I do
keen dome
Huh yeah I guess KIR would have more buttons
vestal escarp
I have my own set of binding, when i played kir in amirdrassil i could bind everything for OL
vestal escarp
In tww sub im out of binds because some macros have fallen apart
And that iteration of kir had shadowdance
If i were to swap to ol now i would have some free space
leaden prairie
really? i have less
Tbf I have everything bound always
So like br and ks for example
Otherwise it's hard to get used to changing builds
tepid trellis
mfw: me looking at my keybinds for sub and having 3 shadowstep ones
leaden prairie
Ye
tepid trellis
keen dome
Are those for Ansurek?
leaden prairie
I do indeed was able to remove all my steps
tepid trellis
1 of them is
leaden prairie
That's. True
tepid trellis
usually had it set to our BDK
vestal escarp
One is all you need git gud 
tepid trellis
but i have 1 target/mouseover 1 focus and 1 @ player step
tepid trellis
specific person
leaden prairie
vestal escarp
keen dome
I just have one for mouseover 
vestal escarp
You can step a dractyr for ansurek they always cheese the wrest
keen dome
Warriros can leap it too, I think? but that could end up funny.
vestal escarp
Rog too with step bullshit
gleaming imp
Do we still play around Danse Macabre like back in Nathria? for juicy last stack finisher?
tepid trellis
nathria?
keen dome
Nope
gleaming imp
or is it just to have it running from BP and shuriken?
gleaming imp
thank god
keen dome
Don't even need to track it.
tepid trellis
we have never really played around it
gleaming imp
i might be thinking of something else then 
tepid trellis
only reason we used to backstab was because it did a decent amount of dmg with gloomblade and we had CPS from TFD
back in the first two seasons of Dragonflight
with Vault and Arberrus
gleaming imp
might be that i'm thinking of
by the looks of it, sub seems a lot more simple compared to what i remember it to be
vestal escarp
Depends on the level
keen dome
It's lost some of it's weird complexity (I.e, Dust) but it's got a lot of quirks that can be strange to play around.
vestal escarp
Minmaxing rotation to play around both hero talents specifics has been bad as of lately
tepid trellis
by the looks of it, sub seems a lot more simple compared to what i remember it t...
its harder than early Dragonflight
pearl vine
what are those quirks
tepid trellis
Easier than late Dragonflight
gleaming imp
the hard part seems to be looking at the different conditions, specially in multi target
pearl vine
just lookin'
pearl vine
sir do not arrest
vestal escarp
Zeross?
keen dome
what are those quirks
SecTec CDR + Coup, Symbols + SoD timings for maximum effectiveness, knowing when to hold Dance+SoD between burst so you have enough for the next one, etc.
void hound
any new hidden bugfixes?
vestal escarp
Oh
tepid trellis
lil bird told me that sectech sometimes doesent work with the tier
vestal escarp
outlaw aura buff and some small tier set tweaks, some of which were just tooltip...
Ty
tepid trellis
- clones may or may not yoink stacks
tepid trellis
just sec tech clones not gaining dmg from 4pc most of the time
which is ALOT of dmg missing
so not great
pearl vine
SecTec CDR + Coup, Symbols + SoD timings for maximum effectiveness, knowing when...
can you explain those
molten citrus
i think they were still trying to pin point what was causing it
because sometimes it would work, but most of the time it wouldn't
pearl vine
SecTec CDR + Coup, Symbols + SoD timings for maximum effectiveness, knowing when...
cuz i have no idea what u wrote i dont think i know what SoD means
oh
symbols nvm
lmao
tepid trellis
Symbols of death
keen dome
Yeah, Symbols haha
void hound
thats fine, they still have time, not like they would ship a major patch like that haha 
tepid trellis
just symbols of death
keen dome
No I meant to type Symbols + SecTec, that's my mistake
tepid trellis
symbols usage gets a bit more complicated
pearl vine
i mean u kinda wanna save 2 dances for cds
and then u have one symbols+sectec dry
outside dance
or no?
void hound
cuz i have no idea what u wrote i dont think i know what SoD means
essentially the main difficulty for sub right now is getting the most amount of uses while still covering your burst
pearl vine
idk if you wanna kinda save symbols but spec now looked fairly ez when i went onto dummies
(didnt play it since fyrakk)
tepid trellis
its easier than fyrakk sub
dry plank
it depends on fight and timings xD
keen dome
essentially the main difficulty for sub right now is getting the most amount of ...
This is a far more succint way of saying what I tried to say haha
void hound
i think its harder than fyrakk sub
tepid trellis
comes down to how much cdr you generate
keen dome
And there's variance in what you'll generate as Trickster due to Coup, which makes it a little more frustrating to predict sometimes.
pearl vine
ok i guess you wanna save coups for dances yes?
tepid trellis
not really
pearl vine
haha okay i mean i dont wanna bore yall
keen dome
no..
pearl vine
is there any comprehensive fa
void hound
you can save it if its like one finisher away (use bp), otherwise just send
pearl vine
faq i went over wowhead one didnt find that much details
keen dome
!cds
wicked joltBOT
Cooldown Use:
Every 90 seconds you want to cast Flagellation and subsequently Shadow Blades. When these two are up you always want cast 2 Symbols of Death, 2 Shadow Dances and 2 Secret Techniques.
To ensure you have enough cooldown reduction on your Shadow Dance to attain that you need atleast 1 charge and roughly 40 seconds left on your second charge before casting Flagellation.
keen dome
This might help clarify it concisely
pearl vine
i mean yeah you get the feel when u can send and get dance back
idk man like feel stuff aint that hard but unintuitive stuff like dust was hell for me
tepid trellis
i think its harder than fyrakk sub
very much depends on how well versed you are, this version of sub you can more or less just plug and play, fyrakk sub you could not
keen dome
I don't think Sub is hard, but I do think it is confusing and like i said, has it's quirks. Once you learn them, and learn why we do stuff. It's just practice and the fights. Lotta room for improvement and optimisation too.
jolly pasture
Do we have ds vs trickster sims for 11.1 anywhere?
tepid trellis
no
keen dome
Well, two
pearl vine
then send dance+symbols+sectec kinda
then see if in the fight u have
for sure downtime where u could send
symbols and sectec alone
etc
keen dome
Two dances+SoD+Secs in burst. Two outside. Two inside. One outside. Two inside, Two outside, etc.
pearl vine
whilst playin dust felt like
void hound
very much depends on how well versed you are, this version of sub you can more o...
i consider myself versed in both
i find the difficulty of dust vastly overblown since it only made you think hard about one button (vanish)
whereas right now, in order to min max, you have to consider every sectec, dance, symbols and cb if you feel fancy (for the longer boss fights)
also the fact that for full mastery you need to learn both hero talents which come with their own quirks
ofc this is all highly subjective
keen dome
Dust was just looking at someone far better and smarter than me playing and copying them.
However I do miss 1Dust Brew for keys, that was fun
tepid trellis
i consider myself versed in both
i find the difficulty of dust vastly overblown ...
most players just didn't have the knowledge to properly setup dust on a fight
tbf it was a headache
trying to do 40 different versions of cd line ups
vestal escarp
Praise be thr racoon
tepid trellis
to see if you could squeeze in something somewhere
keen dome
tbf it was a headache
thank you for doing the headache part for small brain rogue like me.
pearl vine
yeah exactly
pearl vine
to see if you could squeeze in something somewhere
this
jolly pasture
If they just made blades and flag line up... dust didnt have go go
void hound
trying to do 40 different versions of cd line ups
thats fair, getting the inital setup down was a pain
tepid trellis
and having to redo them every week cuz people got stronger
void hound
however for 99% of people that problem was solved
vestal escarp
The dust bullshit some tend to oversight is that in that tier we had to play around flag as always but with vanish being static 2 min and trinket too
vale pine
most players just didn't have the knowledge to properly setup dust on a fight
^ to add to this, it was the only time a spreadsheet seemed like a good idea
upper narwhal
Dust was spreadsheet simulator good riddance fuck that talent
tepid trellis
most people dont even know how to look at logs
pearl vine
then u missed out on at least a set and you enter p3 fyrakk and your flag is 50 sec cd and your sb is 5 min cd
and you have 3 vanish stacks
vale pine
i personally don't like doing spreadsheets which tell you cooldown use exactly
leaden prairie
trying to do 40 different versions of cd line ups
i think it was fun on prog tho
fallow nimbus
Dust was crippled by the misaligned cd timings of flag and blades. With both on 2min we wouldn't have any issues
lilac stag
or am i restarted
Don’t avoid filtered words
leaden prairie
during reclears it was just annoying
vale pine
because fight strategies and kill times can easy invalidate them, also procs can impact it
upper narwhal
Like 5 people interacted with dust and everyone else looked at spreadsheets
tepid trellis
i think it was fun on prog tho
yeh it was
keen dome
I really like where Sub is right now. As trickster.
pearl vine
ill agree there it still kinda was
void hound
dust was definitely not "Pick up and play" friendly, but neither is the current iteration so i think its kinda moot
leaden prairie
like i loved doing my thing on tindral for example
pearl vine
im sad it went away
leaden prairie
i couldnt even check others cause i wasnt doing normal set of feather
vale pine
I thought it was math at first view, then realized its some conspiricy stuff
leaden prairie
but it was just fun
pearl vine
same zac
vale pine
i think even now
pearl vine
and jesus fuck noneone went up 2nd feathers
vale pine
we run into the problem of...
fallow nimbus
I rather have dust + 2min cds than what we have now
leaden prairie
2nd set was better anyway 
vestal escarp
The dust replacement made things more complicated
void hound
its probably better for the game that dust got removed, but it also removed a niche sub had
now sub is a way harder sell compared to assa because of it
leaden prairie
its probably better for the game that dust got removed, but it also removed a ni...
still is a 1min30 spec
so thats a niche
if you feel that way bout sub tho
imagine outlaw 💀
keen dome
pour one out for the pirates
fallow nimbus
That sod charges and flag don't reset after a wipe is atrocious
tepid trellis
Flag does no?
vestal escarp
No
fallow nimbus
No
keen dome
It's probably just missing the... flag.. for it.
vestal escarp
Hasnt happened to you that at court wipes at dipels you had to call for 1min prepull?
tepid trellis
Thought I read that they did fix that some time ago. Guess not
leaden prairie
It's probably just missing the... flag.. for it.
There is no flag tbf I think it's just automatic for all 2 min or more cds
vestal escarp
Cause you just sent flag
leaden prairie
Then the rest they do manually
tepid trellis
Nope
fringe palm
Best thing is the people that use transmitter prepull and then you cancel pull. Time to wait
leaden prairie
Like they did with dance
leaden prairie
Best thing is the people that use transmitter prepull and then you cancel pull. ...
Me when outlaw was rolling as early as possible
keen dome
There is no flag tbf I think it's just automatic for all 2 min or more cds
Look, I saw a joke chance and I'm taking it. You are almost certainly right though.
fringe palm
fallow nimbus
The total cd time must be >=2min
summer peak
Is there any sub video guide that people recommend from a high level rogue ?
tepid trellis
Eleem has a decent video on how the rotation functions
haughty mural
🐐
tribal blade
i just started looking into the raid fights and the 1st boss is literally perfect for sub huh
tribal blade
yeah but they don't have the ST burst we have for the dmg amp
or maybe they do now? i dunno what warr looks like with those mega buffs
vestal escarp
They have decent burst
tribal blade
i'm also curious on elusiveness vs feint for the keys next season
alpine wraith
they have toned down a lot of 1 taps but i would still run elu mostly
still very danger dots around
specially in ToP you have so much unavoidable dmg
that you can kinda predict
and well motherlode
tribal blade
yeah any time there's big dots elusiveness becomes really good
vestal escarp
Elu is op
alpine wraith
well it depends usually you avoid at all costs dying and letting healer use less resources on you is always objectively better
but me bad player need cheat most of the time
or having a safeguard is so comfy
there are some places where cheat is whatever like places with lots of dots tho you just die next tick
umbral relic
I’ve try scrolling up to find info about sub for this page
But it’s divided into tons of small bits
Can we have a pinned/custom thread state of the art explaining what is fixed / changed?
umbral relic
Okk
alpine wraith
at most we are limit testing how long or worth it is to gamble on tier set
first initial find is to not use finishers that can krangle it if flag is around 20 secs off cd
everything else is in the air
umbral relic
That mean that at last the stacking system is working fine I guess
lilac stag
But it’s divided into tons of small bits
It really is. There are no changes and anything that may change is dependent on tier set.
alpine wraith
there is a weird bug with tier and sec tech
but i think it is a change they will make maybe but it was not fully added yet
umbral relic
The clone doesn’t work on stacks?
Is it this ( or that, I failed English) you’re talking about?
umbral relic
first initial find is to not use finishers that can krangle it if flag is around...
So backstab + spam rupture for 20 sec
alpine wraith
you dont spam rupture
you just build to full and likely use it on pandemic
you overstimate a lot our cp gen outside dance
vestal escarp
You have to farm dance cdr somehow
lilac stag
Oh the realization of people coming to the spec that this is the least intuitive dps spec to play in the game. 
alpine wraith
you already did the other whole min
umbral relic
you overstimate a lot our cp gen outside dance
True
keen dome
How many Evis's do we actually send between Dances. I should count sometime
It's gotta be what, 3 at most?
keen dome
And like people have said it does no damage anyway
lilac stag
You have to farm dance cdr somehow
With all those cp generated outside of dance am I right?
keen dome
So it's pretty whatever if it's a rupture instead
alpine wraith
well you would rupture anyway
keen dome
ye
alpine wraith
so you just pool kinda
keen dome
Perfect raid leading time
umbral relic
Oh by the way in the opener flag and SB are Delayed, do you wait for SB to come back after to cast them together or do you keep that delay ?
alpine wraith
you sec tech then blades before 1 sec is off
lilac stag
it’s always the same
vestal escarp
With all those cp generated outside of dance am I right? <:garf_sit:133488942944...
With whatever you can
umbral relic
Line up? Wdym?
umbral relic
you sec tech then blades before 1 sec is off
Oh I think I get it
So you wait a little more since you don’t have vanish / rupture anymore but you don’t exactly line up it
alpine wraith
no it is just because blades lasts 16 secs
and now it works on copies but the first hit of sec tech is not big so we dont really care about it
so if you use it a bit later you get more abilities affected by blades
you have around 0.6 secs or so to use blades after sec tech for it to affect the copies too
or just use it before
umbral relic
I’m feeling dumb and hope it’s not tiring for you 😦
Since flag is 12 sec, don’t you want to cast it after SB?
In the opener i get why, but after in the rotation i don’t get it
lilac stag
Flag is not 12 seconds
Your cd burst is exactly the same every 90 seconds
Wowhead guide has pictures of it helps
tribal blade
first initial find is to not use finishers that can krangle it if flag is around...
i assumed something like that would become a rule
full stopping everything 20 secs off from flag is not too bad
umbral relic
flag lasts 12 secs then another 12 secs
Oh I forgot the mastery buff
tribal blade
if it's found to be optimal to only press rupture outside dance.... degen gameplay inc
umbral relic
Okkkk thx
umbral relic
Wowhead guide has pictures of it helps
Yeah I love it, but I’m way more efficient at understanding details by asking questions
alpine wraith
well the dances outside cds are not that important lets say
lilac stag
if it's found to be optimal to only press rupture outside dance.... degen gamepl...
Fuck rupture. Let assa play with it.
barren wolf
yes please
alpine wraith
miss me with that gambling shiet
you dont want NB back bro
a 12 sec dot is not it
tribal blade
well update rupture and just call it nightblade haha
umbral relic
if it's found to be optimal to only press rupture outside dance.... degen gamepl...
Don’t we got at least a sectec outside of cd cause 3rd stack of SoD?
lilac stag
Instead they’re the Venom spec.
tribal blade
and make it shadow dmg
lilac stag
We don’t need nighblade 2.0
tribal blade
Don’t we got at least a sectec outside of cd cause 3rd stack of SoD?
you run a very high chance of resetting the tier set if you do that
barren wolf
Instead they’re the Venom spec.
the in-venom spec 
tribal blade
if i'm not wrong that's 3 chances of resetting tier in 1 hit
we're talking about next season though
not right now
umbral relic
Lol that tier set is truely a death kiss from blizzard
vestal escarp
It's cheap on purpose
keen dome
We don’t need nighblade 2.0
But what about purple rupture
vestal escarp
They're on the "one can only have so many good ideas" road
lilac stag
Let me say it louder for those in the back. FUCK RUPTURE
keen dome
What could you put in place of it for Sub, though. maybe something like GS except more thematic? Less a DoT and more something you play around to amp damage even more
lilac stag
NOTHING. more evis dmg
keen dome
I support more evis damage
keen dome
only if it's purple
barren wolf
deal
fallow nimbus
There once was a talent that refreshed rupture duration
lilac stag
Do we get shadow splatter too?
keen dome
Hahaha
barren wolf
its crazy they gave spatter attached to the single target spender while already having an aoe spender
makes no sense
vestal escarp
You already nimble the shadow evis... As physical dmg
lilac stag
what else is assa missing? Get them the final pieces of do everything puzzle
vale pine
having only one damage finisher sounds boring
lilac stag
I GOT IT. Assa needs NO PARRY
barren wolf
what else is assa missing? Get them the final pieces of do everything puzzle
a way to high roll
keen dome
honestly making no parry be the rogue raid buff kinda slaps though
barren wolf
like shaman does
keen dome
+2% haste and no parry
lilac stag
assa now has PI when casting envenom
vale pine
(i am joking)
keen dome
pi stands for poison infusion
barren wolf
we accept that
tribal blade
bring back smoke bomb?
tribal blade
probably not LOS but do something else
barren wolf
something like each envenom has a chance of proc'ing a kingsbane
and each time it doesnt proc, it gets a higher chance
ofc bad luck protection
keen dome
probably not LOS but do something else
I still think it can work as LoS. Just an effective AoE 'kick' in that it makes mobs stop casting and run it
tribal blade
that sounds like rng crackshot
keen dome
it also moves the gather onto a DPS which would be interesting
lilac stag
that sounds like rng crackshot
They’ve moved on from taking ideas from sub
barren wolf
that sounds like rng crackshot
hey we need a way to highroll
keen dome
the english
tribal blade
unironically likes it
lilac stag
Kush
tribal blade
it's so boring
keen dome
It's a relic of older design
tribal blade
it also makes no sense to tie a mast buff to an energy thing
keen dome
Yeah
vale pine
tea is design wise fine
tribal blade
is it a dmg buff or is it for energy
barren wolf
i like it when its only energy and energy is scarce 🙂
tribal blade
shouldn't be both
vale pine
its just boring
keen dome
I dunno. It feels like it's a relic retooled. Needless button bloat with multiple things shoved onto it.
fringe palm
Energy is an outdated concept, doesn't work for current class design
tribal blade
i like it how blizz looked at the whole history of rogue and decided to give us thistle tea lol
lilac stag
Why can’t tea be a choice node? Green tea (energy) Black Tea (Mastery)
barren wolf
Energy is an outdated concept, doesn't work for current class design
get out
tribal blade
Why can’t tea be a choice node? Green tea (energy) Black Tea (Mastery)
that would be way better
granite river
If you think about it more energy is also a dam buff
barren wolf
go play one of the many specs that dont have energy
tribal blade
energy is fine, it's just the strange thing where baseline is 100 and then sin somehow has 300
lilac stag
Not if you get the energy when you don’t need it
keen dome
Is the black tea licorice flavour?
lilac stag
No
vale pine
petition to make outlaw chuck rum instead of tea
lilac stag
It’s grape ghost energy drink
fringe palm
It's either too much and basically doesn't exist, or too little. Current class design for other specs is basically always global capped, energy classes (and dk) feel slow or energy doesn't matter for them
keen dome
It’s grape ghost energy drink
ew
barren wolf
It's either too much and basically doesn't exist, or too little. Current class d...
thats a problem with current design then
not with the concept
keen dome
I've never drunk an energy drink
lilac stag
And you call yourself a rogue
keen dome
Well I am old
lilac stag
So am I
fringe palm
thats a problem with current design then
I said with current design. We agree on the general point, difference is what we see as the problem.
lilac stag
tribal blade
we're not young enough to be the zoomer outlaws
keen dome
touché
vale pine
lol
oblique grove
I haven't looked at ptr is sub pog or dog
fringe palm
Idm energy classes it's all I played since legion
barren wolf
whats the problem with having slow specs though? like what if you want a fast spec theres like 30 out there that spam abilities
oblique grove
Please don't tell my it's another ass season
keen dome
sub rogue is always pog
tribal blade
everyone saw wox's stream finally and were like "of course he's barely an adult"
lilac stag
me trying to stay awake for the last hour of raid, while not putting myself into an insomnia state for working the next day.
keen dome
I just drink a lot of coffee which is probably why I can't sleep ever.
fringe palm
whats the problem with having slow specs though? like what if you want a fast sp...
I just said it feels outdated compared to other classes I do not have an issue with the concept of energy
barren wolf
monk has energy too
fringe palm
Yes and monk is global capped for 3 expansions+
lilac stag
Rogue is perma global capped. 
vale pine
I haven't looked at ptr is sub pog or dog
yesterday: pog
today: dog
tomorrow: we don't know
if you want a answer best is to type:!moroes pog or dog in #off-topic.
You will get a 50% correct answer every time.
barren wolf
Rogue is perma global capped. <:omegalul:585734084777476096>
well yeah now, we've had 50 apm, 45 apm, 55 apm
on assa
and sub isnt gcd capped
is it
fringe palm
Rogue is perma global capped. <:omegalul:585734084777476096>
Often yes, so energy is irrelevant because you press buttons anyway that's the whole point
lilac stag
Spinning 45s. The assa Dream
alpine wraith
think sub is kinda the only one that has this energy feel to it outside of cds
lilac stag
if energy was gone the entire design of sub would be null.
alpine wraith
assa also has some minigames too kinda
tribal blade
sin got given a new mini game to juggle not proccing tea lol
the change nobody asked for
fringe palm
Yeah envenom, but since 05 it's also just press buttons for the most part
lilac stag
new new mini game. Dry Shiv Lingering
tulip gorge
if you want to use every single gcd, outlaw is for you
tribal blade
so we can have 10 second shiv back
fringe palm
@barren wolf do you consider assa dungeon spec st good gameplay?
tulip gorge
there is a reason why energy classes have 1 sec gcds instead of 1.5s
fringe palm
3min+ St bosses
lilac stag
Sub players want burst CDs and don’t give a shit about stuff out of CDs. That’s done with resources. The throttle for that is energy. So yes energy is still important and relevant.
oblique grove
I just don't want my raid lead to tell me to play ass again
oblique grove
Please God
lilac stag
Why are you listening to your RL?
oblique grove
Well I don't
lilac stag
You realize how hard it is to replace a rogue?
oblique grove
I played sub on nippletwister
fringe palm
It's incredible boring and unfun for me
oblique grove
But they get pissy
oblique grove
I almost played dh because all the dhs are always heralding the end of all life or something
fringe palm
I just don't want my raid lead to tell me to play ass again
Are you in a top10 guild? If not tell him to fuck off
oblique grove
But I'm still the single only rogue we have
lilac stag
It's incredible boring and unfun for me
There are 3 dps specs. Try another.
barren wolf
<:starege:923197272064426075>
is it weird a long time rogue player likes the gameplay that attracted him initially? 😦
lilac stag
Assa is very chill. People find that fun.
fringe palm
There are 3 dps specs. Try another.
That's not the point xd, I'm played other stuff I'm talking about rogue and how it feels compared to other specs
oblique grove
I started playing rogue in s2 dragonflight so I've basically been playing sub the whole time til outlaw this tier
tulip gorge
is it weird a long time rogue player likes the gameplay that attracted him initi...
do you like to watch paint try, because that's how assa feels like in M+ single target fights
lilac stag
every spec should feel the same?
oblique grove
I do not like assassin near as much
barren wolf
do you like to watch paint try, because that's how assa feels like in M+ single ...
im simple what can i say
lilac stag
If you don’t like something. Don’t play it. The content you’re pushing in raid likely doesn’t give a fuck.
fringe palm
No, but if the spec does nothing 50% of the time it's not fun for me
barren wolf
then dont play it???/
tulip gorge
then go play outlaw lol
lilac stag
then don’t play it
fringe palm
Reading comprehension seems difficult it is what it is
barren wolf
game is big enough to have different specs for everyone
lilac stag
you’re complaining about assa in a sub channel that, checks initial complaint, cares about energy
wtf is your point here?
idle pilot
I like pineapple on pizza.
lilac stag
Back to assa channel
idle pilot
oblique grove
I just want to hit fat dingers or pull out the gyatt for as many times as God allows
lilac stag
Pineapple on pizza = .2% dps gain from 4pc tier.
idle pilot
That's a low blow right there :C
lilac stag
tribal blade
I like pineapple on pizza.
idle pilot
I think the ref should pull a red card right there.
tribal blade
granite river
do you like to watch paint try, because that's how assa feels like in M+ single ...
Not in cd’s and then for like a minute
tulip gorge
Not in cd’s and then for like a minute
without deathmark it just feels awful
especially if you have to spend energy on feint too 
lilac stag
I figure in 2 hours streamer visit time to tell us sub is dead
That should cap off the day
alpine wraith
ahaha
hazy breach
Maybe we have a working tier set come .5
barren wolf
once again, my problem is the 7th cp on assa cause it means we build so much more than we spend
but alas
lilac stag
Maybe we have a working tier set come .5
12.0
barren wolf
I WILL CONTINUE COMPLAINING
alpine wraith
complain every day and send a bug report
lilac stag
Deathstalker is shit
alpine wraith
fatal intent is peak design
lilac stag
and they don’t care
barren wolf
my favorite was 5cp assa cause we had to manage rupture more, envenom duration was lower
UWU
tribal blade
well we had a good run in ptr
barren wolf
i complain about assa in sub channel
tribal blade
better luck next time
barren wolf
ill stop sorry
oblique burrow
Never tried sub, always liked the calm feeling of playing assa
lilac stag
there’s just no dot management with the dot spec. like wtf
oblique burrow
Except when its AOE, AOE we go crazy crazy in M+
jolly pasture
Inb4 tier set is fixed for the one week before we equip 11.2 set
oblique grove
Flaggleblades gives me some dopamine that only crackshot can match
oblique burrow
Assa waiting till the begining of the PTR to get their tier set fixed
lilac stag
You’ve come to the wrong channel to complain about broken tier.
tepid trellis
@vale pine what we complaining about in here now?
lilac stag
<@194804407706189824> what we complaining about in here now?
Energy
oblique burrow
You’ve come to the wrong channel to complain about broken tier.
True ☠️
hazy breach
Assas tier just has low numbers
oblique grove
Just do some crack idk
vale pine
<@194804407706189824> what we complaining about in here now?
not sure, discussion was all over the place
umbral relic
All my guild and friends are telling me to play assa
But I know how much they feel insecure once I reach burst window
oblique burrow
The ticks of rupture still cancels the buff
vale pine
but i think people are mostly mad because "bruh nerf"
oblique grove
So you guys think I can strongarm my way through only playing sub and outlaw
lilac stag
Bugs
tribal blade
not sure, discussion was all over the place
discussion was so much easier to follow before all the sin and outlaws came in here heehee
vale pine
tl;dr: they "fixed" things and introduced new bugs
tepid trellis
So you guys think I can strongarm my way through only playing sub and outlaw
yes
i do that every tier
vale pine
so sub went from opop to, less op
leaden prairie
i do that every tier
But with sub only
lilac stag
So you guys think I can strongarm my way through only playing sub and outlaw
Have you tried to recruit a second rogue? Good luck
tribal blade
my raid team has a mage who has a high guild ranking who only plays arcane
lilac stag
Don’t tell me what to play
tribal blade
so i'm safe
lilac stag
frost is fun
oblique grove
Well 3 including myself so 2
leaden prairie
Have you tried to recruit a second rogue? Good luck
Why do I always end up in guilds with another rogue then
lilac stag
Good choices
lilac stag
Why do I always end up in guilds with another rogue then
They trying to replace you?
leaden prairie
I don't think I ever did a guild where there wasn't another one trick rogue
No I join
oblique grove
The one trick rogue in my raid ended up going to ww pre expac
hazy breach
The ticks of rupture still cancels the buff
No it hasnt for like 2 weeks
leaden prairie
I just always join guilds with one trick rogues for some reason
lilac stag
they see you’re outlaw and the other rogue goes oh fuck, stuck on this another tier.
leaden prairie
lilac stag
I legit forget are you pushing HoF?
oblique grove
I once rolled 5s twice in a row
lilac stag
I think CE outside of HoF struggles to find rogues.
lilac stag
if I had a rogue to snuggle I would with my bombs
alpine wraith
tbh many rogues need snuggling
oblique burrow
My raid cant replace me, the other rogues dont like playing all 3 specs too 😎
oblique grove
I'm happy as can be if I don't have to play assassin
tepid trellis
ive basically been alone since Push quit the game
oblique burrow
Never played sub, compared to outlaw and assa where is it in terms of difficulty?
tepid trellis
we do have another guy that plays rogue
but he is more fotm
so he can more stuff and is currently playing ww
oblique grove
I'm terrible at describing things but basically sub is good 💯
lilac stag
I'm happy as can be if I don't have to play assassin
Play whatever you want. Subs got a big advantage in survivability over assa on early prog
vale pine
^
oblique burrow
Play whatever you want. Subs got a *big* advantage in survivability over assa on...
Oh why? 🤔
tepid trellis
more DR nodes
lilac stag
We stack vers
tepid trellis
and Vers
hazy breach
Because outlaw and sub has multiple defensive nodes
lilac stag
And more Dr nodes
hazy breach
Assa has none
tribal blade
it's very noticable
oblique burrow
Noted 🫡
tribal blade
i did the entire of ovi prog as sin
lilac stag
you can almost never fient on Ovi. lol
tribal blade
and then swapped to sub and things that would kill me stopped killing me
oblique burrow
I'll see with sub how its going 🫡
tepid trellis
I'm terrible at describing things but basically sub is good 💯
i basically only play sub, unless there is a very good reason for me not to, and i raid at world rank 50, so you are gonna be more than fine playing what you enjoy
oblique grove
I had to start assassin on nippletwister but eventually I just snuck in a quick spec change and we killed it after
hazy breach
10% damage reduction thats up roughly 50% of the time, 8% more healing taken and like 10% less damage taken from vers
oblique grove
Probably not coincidental
signal tangle
i basically only play sub, unless there is a very good reason for me not to, and...
Did you do this whole tier in sub ?
hazy breach
Whereas assa has 3% leech
tepid trellis
Did you do this whole tier in sub ?
i swapped to sub when i got Transmitter
signal tangle
I just swapped to rogue for S2 cause my guild needs one
lilac stag
Sorry
signal tangle
But I'm still kinda trying to figure out what spec I'll play
tepid trellis
only reason why i didn't play sub pre transmitter was because i did around 15% more dmg as Assa than i did as Sub
and im unfortunately not bad enough at assa
to make up that difference
signal tangle
Yeah I know but last time I've played Rogue was end of Shadowlands and it was just to play a couple of M+ with friends. And I only tried Outlaw at the time.