subtlety

[plush roost]

My

PARSE

[edgy zenith]

ye, also. slightly modified opener makes getting transmitter much nicer during boss movement. Strike > backstab > vanish > Strike > flag > rupture

[tribal blade]

i did 1 key without a shammy last week and i could notice it in dances

so bad

[hazy breach]

Yes playing without shaman aint an option

[tribal blade]

it's actually really bad

i just play sin if i don't have a shammy

because you don't actually feel it as sin, even though it's a significant dps loss too

[hazy breach]

Which is why we shouldnt complain too much about enhance still being busted

Keep em busted so i always have one

[plush roost]

I did the entirety of fyrakk and tindral prog without windfury

[keen dome]

Yeah. Occasionally a weekly 10 would've not had a Shammie and it felt.. dire.

[plush roost]

Imagine my surprise with how it felt when i got windfury later

[tribal blade]

my guildie i'm gonna do keys with next season is an ele sham so i have no problems lol

[lilac stag]

hmm not awful

[edgy zenith]

make current windfury shadow tech proc rate the default, remove interaction with windfury

soooo dumb that windfury is so strong on Sub

that it's like required almost

[lilac stag]

2x rogue Ele meta

[keen dome]

But yeah - an instance with dummies, every buff to toggle, damage etc.

Would be a dream

[tribal blade]

other specs have the same problem with PI

it's worse for other specs that need PI because it's harder to get PI

[worn cape]

Looks like a neat passive trinket.

[tribal blade]

i've heard some horror stories of them not being able to farm enough whatever rescource without PI

which fucks their entire rotations

[edgy zenith]

yeah but PI is a 2min CD, and skyfury is a raidbuff

so PI should be very strong

and make gamepaly changes

but ye

FIre mages will whine and moan on ansurek if they get no PI

bc if they get it, you get amazing timings or something

[lilac stag]

Give it to the enhance. Fuck mages.

hell give it to the tank over the mages

[keen dome]

Give it to ME

[edgy zenith]

bro give it to the DK, he's already so down bad

[hazy breach]

Its very possible theres some situation where sub is very much stronger with autumn

[edgy zenith]

make him not end it

[hazy breach]

Technically should be on first boss this tier since he goes down at like 1:38 or something

But first boss so who cares

[bleak wind]

wait, Im trying that

[edgy zenith]

you can get the second sectech off if you press everything perfect and go flag > sectech immediately

and get no downtime

[hazy breach]

🤝

[edgy zenith]

but I just pad on adds in intermission 😎

details > logs

[bleak wind]

but you won't have transmitter though would you

you will have to pop pre pull or something

[keen dome]

god I can't wait to get rid of it

[hazy breach]

I mean ye you wont. But its still +1 casts overall

[lilac stag]

Dinar when

[hazy breach]

Possible you could do it with some prepull stuff ye

[keen dome]

day 1 dinar please

[tulip gorge]

yes please, I want to get house of cards day 1

[hazy breach]

Another little neat trick is to strike a critter <30 seconds on pull timer so you have DN up on pull @bleak wind

Because then your DN in your second dance gets supercharged

[keen dome]

Day 1 dinar wouldn't hurt, it'd just make everyone happier!!!!

[hazy breach]

As your first evis will put you on 3 marks instead of 2

[edgy zenith]

that is sooooo sweaty lmao

[lilac stag]

im sure someone would bitch about it

[edgy zenith]

smart

[keen dome]

Also, dumb question since I'm full of them today: does it matter if the second SecTec during burst is the first or second anima-charged cast? So long as it's within the duration of Shadowblades + is a anima-charged cast, it's fine, right?

[bleak wind]

feel like that would mess me up

[edgy zenith]

yes

[keen dome]

Thanks!

[hazy breach]

ye doesnt matter if its first or second supercharged point

As long as its one of them

[edgy zenith]

you're mostly worried about it fitting in transmitter/dance

not blades, but ye

that's the right idea

[keen dome]

Ye

Just making sure I actually understand it. I appreiciate that 🙂

[lilac stag]

My 11.1 goal for you is to drop macros.

[keen dome]

Bad news: I'm getting rid of them RIGHT NOW

Except the SecTec+CB one you can pry that from my cold, dead hands.

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/despicable-me-minions-cheering-hooray-happy-gif-4884405897232645418

[keen dome]

It's a minimal gain as I understand it, so I don't care to optimize that away.

[lilac stag]

Go the kush route and drop CB

Yeah it’s minimal. I can’t be arsed dropping that macro

[hazy breach]

Idk kinda wild to drop cb when they new tier ultra mega buffs sectech

And it works with blades now

[lilac stag]

I’m curious how much vigor would help with cdr in keys and if it would over take cb

[keen dome]

Transmitter + unlearning this muscle memory does suck though. Fiddly ass trinket.

[hazy breach]

Like sectech in burst does like 120% more damage with new tier and blades fix

And that math includes the current 2p were missing out on

[swift tinsel]

jesus

[worn cape]

Yeah, transmitter sucks to play.

[keen dome]

I'm sitting at a dummy practicing, and then it spawns the platform in a wall.

[void hound]

this mf getting scary next tier

[worn cape]

Which dummmy? I tried Kelpfist but he is too annoying.

[hazy breach]

I would recommend to always fight dummies in orgrimmar

Other dummies are often bugged

[keen dome]

I'm Alliance, so Stormwind

[hazy breach]

Ye or stormwind

[worn cape]

Really??

[lilac stag]

The raider dummy in SW is fine

[keen dome]

Although I'm also AD so Stormwind has a weird lag right now lmao

[swift tinsel]

Org dummy by old hunter area is my go-to

[worn cape]

All the Cathedral Square RPers hogging all the bandwith 😂

[hazy breach]

Effects like blades and nimble flurry are bugged and does not do the correct amount of damage in dornogal

[worn cape]

Looks like I have to go scout some Ogrimmar dummies

[hazy breach]

It usually doesnt matter for the "feel" of the spec

But the numbers can be off

[worn cape]

I am more bothered by the dummy positioning in Dornogal. Shadowstriking into the middle of the dummy or the orb going into the wall. Actually that is just Kelpfist lol. I hate that guy.

[jolly pasture]

Rename secret technique to public technique with how hard its gonna hit

[worn cape]

"In your face". technique

[jolly pasture]

Obvious technique

[hazy breach]

The tradeoff is that we have to do even less than we currently do outside dance

[worn cape]

It is not like we have energy to do anything outside of dance anyway

[jolly pasture]

Its ok, unlike sin our cds feel good so the tradeoff doesnt feel so bad

[void hound]

spamming rupture is gonna be excruciatingly bad

[lilac stag]

Go to a pillar dummy

[hazy breach]

"spamming" is a bit pushing it

[swift tinsel]

eh, rupture is just another button

[hazy breach]

Were talking like once or twice

[void hound]

thats not too bad then

i have no idea bout how rapidly stacks are building

[hazy breach]

Were not casting many finishers outside dance

[swift tinsel]

you can always mix it up and cast snd

really live on the edge

[vale pine]

just unbind snd

[void hound]

i just ditched snd 😭

[swift tinsel]

I use it sometimes

[jolly pasture]

What am i gonna press as finisher when i have to be out of range and build with shuriken toss or w/e the fuck that spell is called

[hazy breach]

bp

[lilac stag]

Use SnD between packs to reduce cdr

[worn cape]

I assume SnD lasts long enough that we don't have to cast it manually outside of dance.

[swift tinsel]

it can get close

if you're purely not-eviscing between dances

not often tho

maybe like once or twice per 5mins iirc

[worn cape]

What is the range of bp anyway?

[hazy breach]

10 i think

But the comment was moreso about dumping cp without it doing anything

Like ye pressing it inbetween packs

[hearty axle]

Anyone have any recommendations on a video guide or something similar for sub? I have a basic understanding of the spec just trying to figure out the different nuanced macro uses etc

[hazy breach]

Since youll get full cp from premed strike anyway

[jolly pasture]

Kinda getting ptsd from previous tiers. Surely patch launches with tier set being fixed right?

[hazy breach]

Best is to not use macros and/or have things bound seperately

[swift tinsel]

have them on binds that are comfy to hit together

[keen dome]

And then it's just practice, practice, practice.

[small spruce]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1uQH2cyFpJH9eVS_GC58EHYylpZM7Qtqt-CfHCF-pRBY/htmlview?pli=1#gid=592244538

Hachadino has alot of nice vids

[lilac stag]

Eleem has one on his channel

[small spruce]

other than that, it's alot of info on the discord here, so just using the search option is also quite nice

[worn cape]

I am getting more nervous with every week that it isn't fixed.

[lilac stag]

It be what it be

[hazy breach]

Its mostly fixed

[jolly pasture]

I rememeber one of the tiers i didnt get my tier set till week 3 because it was botched for so long we didnt have sims and officers didnt know how big of an upgrade it is

[hearty axle]

I appreciate it ya’ll. Looks like I got some reading to do.

[hazy breach]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[hazy breach]

Might be more readable than the sheet.

[worn cape]

At least the raid is looking very nice. Loving the aesthetic.

[leaden prairie]

Ye I get that it wouldn't be worth cause just striking is kinda "free" anyway, but I did wonder if you could just reapply mark then ignore it, one main benefit of that is you also don't have to worry about the cringe target swapping + you can keep hitting the important main target, have you guys simmed doing it that way or only the other way

[hazy breach]

Most changes in simc is like 0.5-1% ye

Like the cb stuff or moving sectech around to optimize macabre stuff in the past

Ignoring DN and just using it for snd was about the same as playing normally

But doing the cringe target swapping stuff

Was a 6% gain

And it should be significantly stronger with new tier

Because most of it is from clear the witnesses just doing insane damage

Which is +60% more damage now

I havent checked the numbers but it wouldnt surprise me if clear the witnesses did close to the same damage as a BP does during dance now

[void hound]

delete deathstalker

[hazy breach]

Ig the tier buffs BP by like 30% inherently so its probably not that close, a bit of a hyperbole on my part there

But the number on clear the witnesses is absoluitely too high

Just like the number on hunt them down is too high for ST

[lilac stag]

What was the target count cutoff for the DS degen strike shit

[hazy breach]

Always i think

But could be 3

lemme double check

Ye it was 3 or more, mb

[lilac stag]

so it’s basically a cleave headache

[slate marlin]

Whats that? Like striking different targets to avoid dn?

[swift tinsel]

Yep

plus more clear the witness

[bleak wind]

I love it, rogue is back to the degenerate state of things

brings back memories of swappping legendaries pre pull in shadowlands

[leaden prairie]

Ok but by strictly ignoring dn you aren't applying mark again aren't you

[hazy breach]

Yes with strike

[leaden prairie]

Ah cause you still strike anyway

Hm okok

It's hard tho

Sometimes you just proc

And you can't do anything about it

[hazy breach]

Ye its horrid to play

[leaden prairie]

And if you accidentally proc dn then I guess you have to consume it

It feels terrible to do so tho

[hazy breach]

[leaden prairie]

You are like in a huge pack

No way you just consume dn

[lilac stag]

just play tricky.

[slate marlin]

so in 3+ targets so just tab target to get ctw and no dn lmfao thats funny

[leaden prairie]

Tricksters is for noobs that wanna do 0 damage no cap

[vestal escarp]

Big dmg on prio guy

[keen dome]

add another 0 and turn it sideways. Infinite damage, babbyyyyyyyyy

[leaden prairie]

No one asks you to do prio

If you are doing insane aoe

I wanna be the big aoe guy

Fuck prio

Prio is for assa rogue

[vestal escarp]

play ele ig

[bleak wind]

trickster should be just as good though, maybe if you are doing the ctw things ds pulls ahead

[vestal escarp]

[hazy breach]

All the ptr fotm andies are saying trickster is absolute dogshit, but from what ive seen some of them aint even tracking their coup stack and/or never using bp

[bleak wind]

yea I also saw the coup thing

[hazy breach]

Another part of it is that deathstalker is more sustained, so since the tier is bugged to work all the time our out of dance damage is way higher

[bleak wind]

ah ye true, the stacks don't fall

[grand wyvern]

how it is still bugged in a release candidate is beyond me tbh

[vale pine]

people assuming bugs will stay in game ^^

[vale pine]

subs niche was prio for 8+ years, how is it a assa niche now?

[jolly pasture]

sin has every niche now

[vale pine]

true

[lilac stag]

Didn’t you hear? Sub is so back!

[dry plank]

we are so back

[steel zinc]

It fits the theme. Some rogues will get permanent stacks of 10, some will have the shadow damage part and some will have their stacks reset near 100% of the time. So therefore you see it fits the patch theme of casino. So it's all a feature

[hazy breach]

Imagine if they werent split up and this was a combined number

Oh i even missed to highlight one 2.9m from the second clone

This is unbuffed on a dummy with current gear + new tier

[steel zinc]

So how much is the fix blades working with sectech?

[hazy breach]

Like 2-3% overall

depends on hero talents

[steel zinc]

So only that?

That's kinda big ngl

Because that's an instant buff when the patch hits

Does coup work now with everything?

[hazy breach]

What

[steel zinc]

Coup used to consume finality in beta

[hazy breach]

I mean it still does

I think thats just intended

[steel zinc]

Ok 👌

[hazy breach]

That each hit consumes it and each hit builds it, depending on where it is

[steel zinc]

Does it work with blades?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[steel zinc]

Ok nice

[hazy breach]

Only sectech clones was bugged with blades

[steel zinc]

I wish we had an actual clone animation

So much missing there

Would add imo a lot to class fantasy

[swift tinsel]

they could even just yoink Contract animation

and it would be infinity times cooler

[steel zinc]

Contract? Got a link to that animation?

[leaden prairie]

Ok that's zeross only tho, he is cooked

[swift tinsel]

imagine dashing animation from kyveza fight

don't have a video

[keen dome]

I imagine it in my heart every night

What a dream

[steel zinc]

Ohhh yeah that would be nice

Ky'veza is like the gigachad rogue

[swift tinsel]

or if they're three actual shadow clones of you that do the third hit of coup animation

[hazy breach]

Unfortunately not only zeross 💀

[leaden prairie]

I track coup no cap

I also press bp in AOE

And I'm like r1 sub noob

[tulip gorge]

I was a no BP noob until recently too

[hazy breach]

Which makes sense

Because you read nimble and go "oh i should eviscerate on aoe"

[leaden prairie]

No because I come from outlaw

[grand wyvern]

i just tell myself i am doing prio damage

[leaden prairie]

And I know about target cap

[bleak wind]

I think its more the storm in dance vs strike instead of evis vs black powder

[hazy breach]

I wasnt talking about you zac dw

[tulip gorge]

well I still do that on some packs like the necromancer packs in NW

[slate lantern]

it did make me feel better that you also were confused about when to send second dance in the cd rotation

[leaden prairie]

And then your tank dies cause you are doing tank damage and the big dudes aren't dying

[leaden prairie]

I told you

I haven't played sub in m+ since forever

Since sl

I was good at sub in raid tho but that's diffy

And still was df ago

[tulip gorge]

DF season 1 sub was kinda fun too

even though it was very simple

[leaden prairie]

Guys

[leaden prairie]

No

[leaden prairie]

Remember dust

I remember

[tulip gorge]

fuck dust

hey guys here have some desynced cds, also use vanish to fix the desync issue bye

[keen dome]

Mess up once. Damage go byebyeeee

[vale pine]

i mean, the bugfixes are def. a buff

but people expect things to not get tuned, as always

[rocky ocean]

Subtlety

[keen dome]

Sub isn't back. Because it never left.

[tulip gorge]

just wait for tuning

[keen dome]

+600% to BP

[tulip gorge]

during beta I was excited to play unholy dk then they slapped it with a 10% nerf and it never recovered

[keen dome]

And then in Week 2 of the season: "we've removed blackpowder."

[hazy breach]

@leaden prairie You may not like it, but this is what peak performance looks like (me playing it on a dummy with no eviscerates outside dances as if the set was working properly)

[lilac stag]

Dreams are made of this.

[jolly pasture]

this is redefining peaks and avalleys

[tulip gorge]

so what do you do outside of dances, just rupture?

does SnD count for CDR?

[hazy breach]

Yep rupture or snd

Doesnt really matter

[tulip gorge]

do you do that in aoe too?

[hazy breach]

Im not 100% sure its worth since its not simmed yet, but i cant imagine a measily evis being worth dropping your stacks for

[hazy breach]

6M during blades, 150k during downtime. Absolute cinema

[tulip gorge]

but what if that evis increases your winning streak stacks?

[young path]

I’ve done a few ptr keys and I’m pretty happy with results

All with friends 3.4k io player range

Sub pumps thus far, felt easier to get out ahead on the meters…. But just as a feeling more than anything I can back theory crafting

[chrome palm]

that would honestly be an interesting rotation if we had something like nightblade or a find weakness finisher debuff to apply with combo points, instead of spamming rupture

[hazy breach]

Well the tier is bugged and constantly works (ie cant be dropped)

So on aoe you're doing significantly more than you should

[young path]

It was not, I was watching and appeared to be how it read

[minor trout]

On ptr should we sec -> blade or blade -> sec?

[hazy breach]

Doesnt matter

[young path]

Do tell? I’m not understanding

[leaden prairie]

Wdym no eviscerates

What is blud doing

[swift tinsel]

it drops tier set (when it works)

[hazy breach]

So you dont lose the tier stacks

[tulip gorge]

I think they might add duration to tier set stacks

[leaden prairie]

yopu wouldnt be doing that tho right

[hazy breach]

It doesnt matter if you sec > blade or blade > sec. Because youll have blades up for sectech clones anyway

[tulip gorge]

to avoid that

[swift tinsel]

it has no duration

[hazy breach]

99.99% sure its worth on ST

[leaden prairie]

what

no wae

that spec is cooked delete it

now

[hazy breach]

No way youre gonna do 1 or 2 500k eviscerate and risk losing the 10 stack

[jolly pasture]

https://tenor.com/view/gordon-ramsay-cooking-let-him-cook-gif-1255851945098674545

[fringe palm]

dust was removed for this

[vale pine]

the tier is def. tuned a bit on the higher site

[fringe palm]

[leaden prairie]

i mean look, i dont like the idea

[azure mauve]

blizz should just send another BP buff and fully complete the transformation

[vale pine]

so it could lead to some not fun gameplay optimizations

[leaden prairie]

but its also what you guys have been asking for

so

[azure mauve]

to a full BP spec

[keen dome]

Has anybody been asking for this, though?

[young path]

Oh totally tracking that, I thought you were eluding to the tier set having 100% uptime

I have not personally experienced that in ptr…. If anything I’d say it occasionally falls off prematurely

But even with that, sub pumpn

[hazy breach]

I like our CDs being a nuke

[leaden prairie]

ye lol

big cd nuke

how do you think that works

you need to do no damage outside

[slate lantern]

ah damn i thought it was 15% chance to remove one stack of winning streak

[keen dome]

Well, I'd think it'd work without absolutely dire gameplay between the cooldowns.

[leaden prairie]

if you wanna do more inisde

[keen dome]

I also don't think Blizzard have designed this with this playstyle in mind at all and it's a product of optimisation.

[leaden prairie]

[swift tinsel]

I'm fine with that tradeoff

[leaden prairie]

still

you asked for it

[jolly pasture]

zac, your logic is flawed tho

[leaden prairie]

no

[jolly pasture]

we been asking for uncap bf since forever

[leaden prairie]

one day

one day

[vale pine]

oh yye

please uncap nimble

spec does no damage without

[jolly pasture]

how about they stop turning every spec into outlaw

[vestal escarp]

why dont they turn outlaw into outlaw then?

[leaden prairie]

how about we remove nimble

[hazy breach]

Yep they havent for sure

[leaden prairie]

you guys got bp already

[grand wyvern]

why dont they turn outlaw into combat you mean

[hazy breach]

But also theres probably no way this shit is staying at 6% per stack

Or were just getting an aura nerf

[keen dome]

Ye, absolutely.

[vestal escarp]

aura nerf for tierset would be hilarious

[lunar bluff]

we need to remove sub rogues imo

[rocky wolf]

we could just be the OP spec for a tier

right

[keen dome]

I wouldn't be too shocked if they also made the stacks fall off on something else, too. Although that'd require them to look at the optimisations and playstyle of the top end so

[lunar bluff]

burst spec with soft capped aoe

we need to hard cap sub

NOW

[hazy breach]

Almost every spec in the game is softcapped buddy

Thats the norm

[lunar bluff]

https://tenor.com/view/picklejuicelover69-gif-1483426411005875907

please metzen hardcap this spec pelase

[hazy breach]

Youre the outliers

[leaden prairie]

do you think sub is good?

[lunar bluff]

jokes on you im not a spec im a human

[leaden prairie]

that would be the first tier

everytier this channel is coping about sub being bad

[hazy breach]

My bad didnt realize me posting a damage graph would enrage all the outlaws

[leaden prairie]

and every tier its a sub tier

[vale pine]

would say they turn every spec into subtlety.
Assassiantion plays and behaves a lot more like sub since DF

but giving all specs BF is a trend

[jaunty umbra]

https://tenor.com/view/volume-down-discord-volume-discord-mute-user-volume-gif-26594706

outluls talking

[vale pine]

not subtlety exclusive

[hazy breach]

Nah were coping about stuff feeling bad to play most of the time

Atleast i am

[vale pine]

https://tenor.com/view/rogue-player-speaking-wow-gif-27271750

[keen dome]

Big damage but at what cost

[hazy breach]

But now trickster feels great on ST

Atleast imo

[vestal escarp]

as long as it's not op in raid

[swift tinsel]

trickster st is super fun

[hazy breach]

Surely theres nothing in the raid that needs to be bursted down

[swift tinsel]

ds aoe however

is complete and utter cheeks

[vale pine]

hey, no doxxing, leave my parses alone. I am doing my best... (just joking)

[lunar bluff]

what the F r u pressing outside of dance? slice and dice? crimson vial?

[lunar bluff]

be better

[keen dome]

I really like how Trickster is right now, yeah.

[vale pine]

slice and dice

[keen dome]

Esp when Coup's charge is gone, which is gonna rule

[vale pine]

detection

[hazy breach]

Rupture and backstab. But like unironically its 1 or 2 eviscerates per window thats being replaced with rupture

[swift tinsel]

pickpocket disguise

[hazy breach]

Were not casting much anyway

So replacing 2 eviscerates every 40 seconds with rupture aint much

[swift tinsel]

need to get coins for Griftah

[leaden prairie]

Maybe you are, idk every tier I feel like this channel people is the last to realize it's going to be a sub tier? Even when it's mega obvious

[lunar bluff]

true your spec kinda doesnt have any energy during non dance/symbols

[leaden prairie]

You remember admisrassil

[hazy breach]

I played sub all of amirdrassil

[leaden prairie]

Everyone was coping about outlaw

[rocky ocean]

I pay for sub

[vale pine]

every tier is a sub tier if you are a sub main

[leaden prairie]

Like sub people were literally complaining about outlaw

[vale pine]

same with outlaw 😉

[leaden prairie]

When everyone with a brain knew it was sub anyway

[jolly pasture]

except sub is viable

[leaden prairie]

It's always sub

[swift tinsel]

doesn't outlaw often sim super high and everyone kneejerks about it

[vale pine]

yes right

[swift tinsel]

when ptr sims hit

[vale pine]

like this tier

[hazy breach]

Ye people always jump on the outlaw hype because it sims high

Same for this tier

[vale pine]

all TWW raids so far are subtlety tiers, you only saw sub played in the wfr

[lunar bluff]

every single season my guild cries about how high my sim is week 1

[leaden prairie]

I mean even this tier ?

[vale pine]

also MDI, all sub rogues

[keen dome]

[leaden prairie]

Last boss was a sub boss which is the most important

Kyveza was half half idk

Court idk I don't remember

[hazy breach]

If youre not progging that fast this was mostly an assa tier tbf

[vestal escarp]

adds? warriors for that

[vale pine]

^ this

[hazy breach]

But ye sub is good in raids almost always

[leaden prairie]

Sure maybe I guess

[rocky wolf]

i was gonna say this but i didnt wanna out myself >.>

[leaden prairie]

Idk sub always get off being either the best or the same as assa

Since I started the game

[hazy breach]

Nobody plays it on ptr

[leaden prairie]

Yet every tier it's a surprise

[hazy breach]

So they have no clue about balancing

Ends up being overtuned most of the time

[vale pine]

you did not play

legion

or bfa

[leaden prairie]

Nope I didn't

[vale pine]

ye

[leaden prairie]

Thats why I get to say that

[hazy breach]

Legion is like 10 years ago soon fuu

[keen dome]

Even if it's a Sub tier.. How many people actually play Sub versus Assa, or Outlaw?

[vale pine]

and did not play before that

[hazy breach]

[leaden prairie]

Game didn't exist before me cuh

Also ye

[vale pine]

-.-#

[leaden prairie]

Legion is too old

That's like

I wasn't even born

[lunar bluff]

im pretty sure ppl play sub more than outlaw i think

[vestal escarp]

Ol got monkeypawd

[leaden prairie]

Not even

[grand wyvern]

isn't sub like the least played spec rn?

[leaden prairie]

Even when they don't nerf outlaw

[vestal escarp]

think twice before asking for uhuh or crackshot

[keen dome]

Yeah, but how much

[leaden prairie]

It "looks" the best until mythic week

[lunar bluff]

seems the same actually

kyveza kills

[leaden prairie]

And everyone knows about it

Yet

No one knows about it ?

[fringe palm]

outlaw wont ever be mythic proc spec if its not giga overtuned

[keen dome]

Ye, that's about what I expected.

[vale pine]

https://tenor.com/view/billy-madison-school-back-to-gif-13344276

[lunar bluff]

queen kills

[leaden prairie]

But guys how can outlaw not be the play it sims 5% higher

Every boss end up with a damage amp window

Okok

Guys wdym it's not outlaw on tindral

[lunar bluff]

s3 was overtuned

[leaden prairie]

I don't get it

[vale pine]

look at s4 logs now

[jolly pasture]

outlaw on trindral

[vale pine]

[sly shore]

40s of flying poggers

[fringe palm]

whats an s3?

[vestal escarp]

shaman3

[grand wyvern]

shift+3 its a keybind

[lunar bluff]

ok outlaw go BLAST this 10 second tindral shield GO!

GO

[hazy breach]

Even if outlaw does 5-10% more on pure ST dummies this tier the burst sub does is gonna valuable, as is often the case

[fringe palm]

ah thanks, makes sense

[lunar bluff]

shaaman3

[keen dome]

Why are a lot of the Outlaw rogues so young. maybe it's an age thing. They'll grow into being a Sub rogue eventually.

[fringe palm]

even if burst doesnt matter, hf playing it on any downtime fight

[grand wyvern]

kids like pirates

[slate lantern]

gotta go fast for them adhd zoomers

[vestal escarp]

dont kids like ninjas?

[lunar bluff]

anyone here listen to Kitchen Lights by Westside Gunn?

[bleak wind]

but outlaw is doing fine this tier

[grand wyvern]

only edgy kids and they play dh already

[leaden prairie]

Ye on reclears it's ok

It got buffed about 10 times in a row

[jolly pasture]

who cares about how spec is doing 5th month

[vestal escarp]

cant wait for s3 where Ol is the play in keys so we can flood zacs channel

[leaden prairie]

Ye

I will welcome all of you

[fringe palm]

outlaw had a wf kill, it was clearly op in prog

[leaden prairie]

When

[lunar bluff]

whats a good outlaw q we could ask them

[fringe palm]

second boss, exile played it

or was it not r1

[leaden prairie]

Oh ye you are right

It probably wasn't r2

R1

[sly shore]

"How do you play Outlaw with out wanting to jump off a bridge?"

[leaden prairie]

Usually bozo guilds get the first few boss down first

Cause they don't do splits

[lunar bluff]

you dont

[sly shore]

[leaden prairie]

I wouldn't do that you would probably lose ADR

And that's a lot of damage loss

[lunar bluff]

you must accept the pile of shit you must walk thru to do decent damage

[vestal escarp]

why?

[vale pine]

true, was an outlaw tier

[leaden prairie]

Outlaw can't sustain itself energy wise out of ADR anymore

Any other questions

[rocky wolf]

you ever pop ADR in a key then wipe it feels super awesome

[uneven scarab]

Without adr ur pressing ss 10x times its so fun

[fringe palm]

ive heard that so often before the tier actually started, might as well remeber it as an outlaw tier

[sly shore]

guys outlaw sims the best 😄

[vestal escarp]

can i spam bte regardless now?

[uneven scarab]

btw

got a huge by the way crit

[rocky wolf]

between the wyes

[leaden prairie]

Yes you can it won't be that much of a DPS loss since it reset on vanish

[fringe palm]

how do you explain to your guildlead that you need the fistweapon that all the good specs need

[azure mauve]

top rogues were definitely playing outlaw at the beginning of the tier

[vestal escarp]

can i use RTB wa for Kir?

[azure mauve]

then as usual

[leaden prairie]

While you could just take random daggers no one wants ?

[azure mauve]

sub and sin takeover

[fringe palm]

excatly

[leaden prairie]

'on heroic week"

Common

[sly shore]

[leaden prairie]

Let's be serious a second

[vestal escarp]

hm

[azure mauve]

hey man they were lol i saw a speed stream

it counts lol

[fringe palm]

the guy that plays 12 rogues decided to play one of the three specs on hc clears

[jolly pasture]

until OL is on last 2 bosses wf kills it aint outlaw tier

[leaden prairie]

Outlaw tier fr

[azure mauve]

take what you can get

[lunar bluff]

alls im saying is, S3 DF ( >100 ilvls ago) I was timing 20s. Now we are in S1 TWW (+ 100ilvls) and i cant even time 15s?????

now let that sink in.

[leaden prairie]

Real

Buff outlaw

Guys

[sly shore]

https://tenor.com/view/let-that-sink-in-gif-11785532389901559578

[leaden prairie]

Do you sometimes remember how much fun you had with acro

[vestal escarp]

never forget

[jolly pasture]

acro overrated

[slate lantern]

gib me long arms bac

[leaden prairie]

I swear everytime I think about Playing I imagine myself with acro

[swift tinsel]

[leaden prairie]

Then I have to play

And I don't have it

[lunar bluff]

@leaden prairie can you sandbag our sims in s2

[vestal escarp]

stonevault with acro

imagine

[leaden prairie]

I don't even need to

[fringe palm]

honestly with how m+ changed, long arms is one of rogues least important issues rn

[jolly pasture]

if you ever play other melees having acro actually sucked

inconsistency was maddening af

[leaden prairie]

So you mean

Acro was so much fun

You wanted it on other melees

[jolly pasture]

op

[vestal escarp]

siege with acro

siege with acro holy shit

[leaden prairie]

I want gb with acro

That first drake

I can't dude

I can't

[jolly pasture]

imo in 2025 with all the dogshit melee have to deal with acro is pog yes, but only if all melee have it

it should be baseline 8 yards

[vestal escarp]

make all melees bm hunter

[azure mauve]

if its baseline 8 yards nothing really changes

[fringe palm]

noone gets it, but ret can have +3 yards for each melee in the game

[azure mauve]

blizz will just make aoes bigger

[leaden prairie]

I love how they removed acro and then just added a bunch of more bullshit in melee

You guys ever do that pack In mist

[jolly pasture]

no i doubt it

[leaden prairie]

With the 5 guys jumping around

Dropping poop

In the maze

And like you can't hit anything

I love that pack

[jolly pasture]

if this was the case, aoes would have gotten smaller after acro got removed

they sure as fuck didnt

[leaden prairie]

Quite the opposite

[jolly pasture]

the spiders in ara kara

[azure mauve]

ye well not every melee had acro though

[fringe palm]

this is by far the most melee friendly m+ has been, what are you on about xd

[leaden prairie]

I don't get these type of mechanics

Like it's just unfun?

[azure mauve]

im just saying if eveyr melee got it, blizz will just make circles bigger

[leaden prairie]

Why

[jolly pasture]

its literally there just to be annoying to melee idk

[leaden prairie]

I think circles aren't even the most annoying things

It's just meele range

Tank moving a mob

You losing half a GCD

Everytime

Tank micro step

You micro kill yourself

[jolly pasture]

like they dont even have to give everyone macro, but make hitboxes not dogshit?

like the 2 dudes before first mist boss. why do i have to be inside their asshole to hit?

[leaden prairie]

Gb drakes

Yes yes

[jolly pasture]

dont qoute me on this but iirc they specifically mentioned making hitboxes/circles etc. better because now they dont have to worry about acro cheesing that shit

[bleak wind]

I feel like if I am inside the red circle unrder the boss (the target one) and I still can't hit it then its a design issue

[azure mauve]

bro for the longest time i thought hte red circle was the hitbox

[jolly pasture]

it makes 0 sense too, like you can hit bosses a mile away and your weapons are certainly hitting air. like bloodbound

[leaden prairie]

If everyone is having an equally shit time then the game is balanced

[jolly pasture]

unfortunately blizzard really quite often takes this approach

its over guys

[azure mauve]

joever...

[jolly pasture]

anti sandbagging..

[swift tinsel]

maybe he's talking about tier set

jk jk

insert Gingi react thumbnail

[leaden prairie]

No wae he is sacrificing rogue viability for clicks !

[azure mauve]

GUYS LOOK HOW MUCH DAM IM DOING

[keen dome]

Is it more than six?

[swift tinsel]

possibly seven

[lilac stag]

4.5milly playing perfect

[steel zinc]

This tier? In raid? No they didn't

[vestal escarp]

||the fyrakk 6% evis||

[granite river]

it does look like he has perma stack

[swift tinsel]

highrolled

hoping my live toon gets perma-stack bug

[vestal escarp]

@hazy breach no evis outside dance you' always floating one sod right?

unless you wanna overcharge a rupture ig

[hazy breach]

Idk guess you just do it on ruptures

Because otherwise youll mess up your dance sequences

So its

Or maybe you just do it right after burst so youll have time to stack up again before next flag+blades

[vestal escarp]

too bad i was kinda a fan of the sectech into coup with the dry sod

[swift tinsel]

iirc from when I was look into it it was an avg of like 40 seconds to stack outside dance so as long as you give yourself enough time you can probably still safely send right after burst like eleem said

[austere spindle]

!symbols

[swift tinsel]

whatcha lookin for?

[pliant topaz]

surely they add rupture to tier so we dont do super aids things like this right? then we spam SND, then they add that too then we just sit there like

[vestal escarp]

no need to stack up if you're playing no evis outside

[swift tinsel]

I'm very surprised it hasnt been changed to All Finishers yet

or if it ends up going live that way

just make dance grant max stacks and who cares

[vestal escarp]

spoiler they're removing rupture in 11.1.5 and dont wanna change tierset midway

[swift tinsel]

cd burst class with maintenance dot, we gamin

[vestal escarp]

snd has less press rate than sepsis now

[uneven scarab]

[steel zinc]

I don't mind that rotation. Would make the spec actually easier to play

No more raw dog sectechs

[pliant topaz]

why wouldnt u raw dog sectechs?

[vestal escarp]

it's great it gives you more coup and cdr

[pliant topaz]

well youre probably not consuming coup

but it does give u more fazed uptime + more flawless stacks for your rutpure + unseen blade hits + sectech just does more damage

so like

[austere spindle]

On TWW launch there was a picture of the Use of Symbols / dance with shadowdust.
Something like first burst window use this. Second that and third this.

I dont know if there is something like That after the removal of Shadowdust.

[slate lantern]

Does anyone play with a sound queue for when your SD ends? Or is my brain just cooked from having one for my last GCD of subterfuge for outlaw

[swift tinsel]

like this?

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[swift tinsel]

From the method guide

[fathom adder]

is it still true that you do like two 1 stack dance + 1 symbol between you big cds 2 dance/2 symbols?

[vestal escarp]

sectech on 2p, dunno if you wanna press that either

[pliant topaz]

oh its on it? guess not i guess kekw

[swift tinsel]

yeah, and with the cursed on-hit stuff its a higher reset chance

[austere spindle]

@swift tinsel exactly❤️

[vestal escarp]

watch the on hit stuff remain for the whole patch

[minor trout]

Wait you guys only rupture / snd outside cds on ptr?

[vestal escarp]

it's a play, not sure if the play

[swift tinsel]

pretty much yep

[minor trout]

Feels weird if everything is already ruptured 🤣

[swift tinsel]

imagine supercharger rupture

infinite duration

[slate lantern]

yeah but they could always be bleeding for longer

[random hare]

deathstalker bis confirmed in keys

2nd is trickster

[azure mauve]

one is the greatest rogue to touch this game

the other is casualaddict

[thin vessel]

if they really want sub with a maintenance debuff, i wish it was something like find weakness which is more sub fantasy and rupture as assa (bleed n poison) fantasy

[swift tinsel]

surprise we get both

[thin vessel]

ikr, but rupture is so out of place from sub fantasy

[swift tinsel]

#MakeNightbladeGreatAgain

[uneven scarab]

i think rupture is fine thematically but it doesnt really have any kind of synergy for sub

its just dam

[random hare]

@vale pine is plague considered nature dmg for darkbrew?

[hazy breach]

What

Plague is shadow and nature

[random hare]

oh

shit

i see

didnt know that

[pliant topaz]

less soup selling more wow wiki studying

[random hare]

[void hound]

soup de grace

[vale pine]

plague is a mixed shool of poison and shadow, so it counts as both at the same time

[void ocean]

I guess no soup for you

[lunar bluff]

this chat has been way too active today guys

sub needs a nerf

[keen dome]

No nerf, more purple.

[vestal escarp]

nerf sub

[swift tinsel]

Give purple

[vestal escarp]

hope we get the amirdrassil sin treatment

[keen dome]

At least we'll have good music to play Sub too. Jazz all the way down

[swift tinsel]

Oh shit that reminds me I need to put together a prog playlist

[keen dome]

Have you heard the new music? It's real good for WoW.

[swift tinsel]

Idk the last time I had game music/sound on

MoP?

[lilac stag]

The raid music is bangers

[keen dome]

Yeah

There's even some mechanic specific tracks

[lilac stag]

Would def listen at least once

[keen dome]

Like rolling the bomb orb on that one boss has it's own track

Gallywix's theme espescially is fantastic

[swift tinsel]

Dang this is actually is pretty good lol

[keen dome]

I want an entire patch that's all in the vibe of that forge of souls bit

(Electro Soul funk)

[grave delta]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[broken shadow]

is sub bugged good or bugged bad on the ptr including tier set

[lilac stag]

Bugged good

[hazy breach]

The tier bug makes it do more damage than intended

[slate marlin]

how much is the bug worth % wise?

[hazy breach]

Hard to tell

The bug makes our out of dance damage significantly higher, but doesnt really improve the burst

[proven drum]

after the fix it will put sub too low or ?

[hazy breach]

Prob not

ST seems really strong either way, the aoe is a bit less obvious.

Probably a bit too strong tbh

[astral axle]

can DS still fit the two sectec in the flag window or naur b/c no disorienting strikes

[hazy breach]

You can fit two sectechs in blades/transmitter as deahtstalker yes

[astral axle]

Oh okay that's not so bad

[hazy breach]

But its tight

[dry plank]

without chaman it is veeeery tight

[vague oar]

For next season will we still use sectec as our first finisher in dance with it being buffed by sb?

[astral axle]

like fury warrior clearly too strong levels?

[hazy breach]

Shouldnt change anything

Still need to sectech asap otherwise it wont come up for the second dance

Either not in time (as deathstalker) or not early enough to utilize the extra unseen blades (as trickster)

[hazy breach]

I have no idea about ptr tuning if fury is strong or not

The reason i say sub is probably strong is because the burst is absolutely insane, so even if it doesnt do well in a dummy scenario its going to be incredibly strong in practice

[astral axle]

[lilac stag]

They’re blasting with last set of buffs

Trying to see where sub falls with people that know how to play it & without broken tier is

It feels good gameplay loop wise. Burst still lovely.

[random hare]

when did they get buffed

ngl sub is cracked in m+ rn

[lilac stag]

tier is broken

gg

[lusty solar]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

keep blasting aoe and maybe they'll nerf BP

[lilac stag]

Feb 4 they did a “BP buff” to basically everything for fury.

[random hare]

they wont

because people are playing trickster

[swift tinsel]

That's why they buffed it in the first place lol

too many tricksters not casting BP

[random hare]

well

prob nobody knows how powerful deathstalker is rn

like

u do

50% more dmg in big aoe

its crazy

[swift tinsel]

are you playing with the mark spread style too

[hazy breach]

How is it 50% more aoe damage

[lilac stag]

It’s broken tier lol

[tepid trellis]

quick mafs

[lilac stag]

Fucking hilarious.

[random hare]

very big aoe u do alot of dps

[hazy breach]

Did you just forget you can press BP as trickster too

[random hare]

like

1st pull mechagon

[lilac stag]

It’s like muscle bruh 2.0

[random hare]

i did like 25m

casual did half that dmg

[random hare]

well its buffed more with this build

[tepid trellis]

Thats not true tho

i was watching that

[vestal escarp]

im pretty sure casual knows he can press bp

[hazy breach]

Not much more. And its less during burst

[lilac stag]

Boss has to die

[random hare]

it is alot more powerful wdym

[vestal escarp]

finality

[random hare]

u just crank alot of shit in big aoe

then chill for 1 min

go again very big

[hazy breach]

Finality

7.5% more damage on non-sectech

Huge

[tepid trellis]

that was after first pull

and casual werent playing right

[random hare]

u realize i didnt play well that key right

[lilac stag]

When will you start playing right?

[hazy breach]

Idk the tier and the fixes make sectech do 140% more damage and people are dropping cb

[random hare]

tank pull was microwaved

he didnt pull everything

on that dung

[tepid trellis]

casual was spamming storm instead of strike

[random hare]

skill issue

not that i didnt have any either

that key was cursed for sub

[vestal escarp]

holy shit i didnt notice the tea

zeross

[random hare]

u cant do 2 packs

[lilac stag]

Kush was tea as well

[random hare]

with sub

[random hare]

?

do u not play ptr

or what

[hazy breach]

PTR is magically different from live you see

Despite no changes

[lilac stag]

Do you know it’s magic

[random hare]

pretty sure tank pulls this

[random hare]

?

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/youre-a-wizard-hagrid-afirmation-magic-magical-gif-16533730

[random hare]

u just play around blackpowder

thats the idea of that build

[lilac stag]

kekw

[tepid trellis]

its the "tea feels better train"

[leaden prairie]

ok tbf

[random hare]

idk why ur always acting that way

lmao

as if everything is the same

[leaden prairie]

I dont wanna get involve

[random hare]

tier isn't

[leaden prairie]

but

no one plays sub on live

thats already quite a big difference

[keen dome]

I'm playing it right now

[random hare]

its crazy to me that none of u guys are playing sub in keys and somehow me,casual and kush are all interested in the same build

[hazy breach]

None of us are playing it keys

YEP

[vestal escarp]

nobody

[random hare]

ye ur pushing high keys on sub

surely

[hazy breach]

Idk bro can you type a single message that isnt straightup wrong

[random hare]

u wont get invited on a +10 probably

[lilac stag]

lol

[random hare]

sub is just not popular at all atm

[keen dome]

The most competitive PTR experience possible

[random hare]

on live

[vestal escarp]

guess why?

[lilac stag]

I miss Kush. At least the discussions are productive.

[random hare]

he doesn't even chat here

[lilac stag]

He does

[random hare]

what

[leaden prairie]

he only comes when you arent there zeross

[random hare]

theres no way

[lilac stag]

What

[vestal escarp]

he's right at that

dead channel pvp spec

[pale burrow]

sub stands for submissive

[random hare]

i see

[leaden prairie]

ye i think he hates your ass no cap

[random hare]

wait zac did u see +21 ara kara triple sub rogue?

sheeesh

[leaden prairie]

what

[lilac stag]

You didn’t start blasting details shit in here until what a week ago?

[random hare]

everybody's playing sub rogue on live

[tepid trellis]

tbf u slacked a bit this tier

[random hare]

i forgot the spec even existed on live

ngl if i didnt play wow before i would think its a new spec on ptr

[keen dome]

That's impressively weird

[leaden prairie]

im still about convinced sub is better than outlaw on live

yet no one plays that spec

[random hare]

ofc it is

[leaden prairie]

people really hating on sub no cap

[random hare]

sub isn't that bad

but

u cant play sub in M+ tho in live zac

nobody's gonna play around ur cds in pugs

[lilac stag]

A week after patch goes live it’ll be back to normal in here.

[leaden prairie]

aint nobody playing around my cds as outlaw either cuh

[keen dome]

I'm sure

Nobody is playing sub, after all

[random hare]

what cds

[leaden prairie]

i think the only dungeons where it would be weird is dawn

[random hare]

wdym i feel like its a good one for sub no?

[hazy breach]

Ye we had a healer thats a bit of a hater

[leaden prairie]

nah i dont think so

[lilac stag]

sub is fun in DB

[hazy breach]

So i just cba fighting it and just went assa

[random hare]

nah i think its good man

or

nvm nah

[leaden prairie]

cause the routes are so perfectly crafted around 2 min

[random hare]

maybe not

yea

also no downtime

sub needs downtime

season 2 alot of that

kinda good for sub

or maybe just ptr tanks suck

[tepid trellis]

25 score more and it wouldve been high keys as sub

[random hare]

idk

[tepid trellis]

its unfortunate

[random hare]

3400 to qualify talking about sub in keys

am i right

[keen dome]

Well you said nobody plays Sub so it'll just be you talking to yourself

[random hare]

[hazy breach]

Unfortunate

[tepid trellis]

but eleem

that 12% or w/e it is mastery is big

[random hare]

Stealthi — Today at 12:06 AM
but eleem

[tepid trellis]

you just dont get it

[random hare]

premeditation > 12% finisher dmg

mb mb

[tepid trellis]

thats not how it works

but go on

its 12% mastery

not 12% finisher dmg

[random hare]

wait

finality is 12% mastery?

[tepid trellis]

im talking about tea

[random hare]

ah

well im not taking tea for the mastery

to apply ruptures and shit without being oom all the time

[tepid trellis]

1 point finality is 7.5% finisher dmg

[random hare]

it just feels so shit to play without tea rn

also tea being automatic is even worse

[lilac stag]

Better off spending tea in CDs

[vestal escarp]

you have energy when you need it

[tepid trellis]

keywords being "feels"

[uneven scarab]

tea

[random hare]

ofcourse

vigor is what makes u rupture mobs

not tea

[lilac stag]

You are taking tea for the mastery then.

[random hare]

well brotherman it still buffs blackpowder

[lilac stag]

[random hare]

only 1 talent works out of the 3

this chat

[vestal escarp]

zac

[random hare]

mastery only works, the energy is all useless

rupturing mobs for free is useless

sure

[tepid trellis]

you dont need the energy thats the thing

[lilac stag]

If you’re only using tea in CDs it’s literally for the mastery.

[tepid trellis]

im with eleem on CB being better

with how hard sectech is hitting

[lilac stag]

You are overcapped on energy in cds

[tepid trellis]

you have a limited amount of time to pre spread before pack is up anyway

[vestal escarp]

WS resets at inc right?

[hazy breach]

Either you get to rupture 2 globals faster outside of cds or your main burst CD always crits for 15m+

[random hare]

well u do also get energy to blackpowder too

which u dont rly have without tea

and vigor

[tepid trellis]

bp outside of dance is noodle

[random hare]

is it tho with 4pc and deathstalker

and finality

[stoic cedar]

Hey guys, does anyone know a good guide i can watch for sublety pvp?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[random hare]

it kinda does decent dam

[lilac stag]

#pvp

[random hare]

idk

maybe ur right

[hazy breach]

But either way theyre gonna fix so you dont have perma stacks

And then youll be rupturing only outside dance

[random hare]

but blackpowder is incredibly op atm