yea sub is quite easy
#subtlety
alpine wraith
molten citrus
are you saying this sarcastically? or
leaden prairie
alpine wraith
unless you get griefed by the tank you kinda use cds on cd
hazy breach
Brother i watched your stream for like 5 minutes earlier today when you were yappin, sure seems like its hard
hazy breach
are you saying this sarcastically? or
No
molten citrus
ok
alpine wraith
one thing you can do on sub is actually PLAN your cds and overuse if you want
random hare
molten citrus
it's def harder than it was in SL
alpine wraith
like nothing stops you from sending extra dances or SoD etc
if the pull warrants it
random hare
i literally just played sub for the first time since 1 year
alpine wraith
that is super cool in my mind
molten citrus
ok but in sl it was litteraly the easiest spec in the game
ehh
random hare
and only played sub on tindral all of DF
leaden prairie
i mean bro
random hare
alpine wraith
on outlaw or assa i cant do anything to help beyond my cds
dusty totem
How do you get max ilvl weapons on ptr? or can u not
leaden prairie
i can think of a few specs that were easier, BM hunter level etc
no way man
molten citrus
How do you get max ilvl weapons on ptr? or can u not
everything scales up in instances
molten citrus
no way man
you still had to align CDs properly in SL
leaden prairie
it was litteraly just press flag
random hare
doesnt scale anymore
random hare
you didnt even have sec tech no ?
i think we did have it
molten citrus
cp refund was just different
leaden prairie
were you even pressing rupture
molten citrus
from shadow tech
random hare
so we never picked it
leaden prairie
thats not cp refund
molten citrus
were you even pressing rupture
yes
tropic nimbus
PV big backstab dmg was fun
molten citrus
ye sec tech wasn't tuned well
random hare
sub definiyly the most omegalul m+ spec in sl
ye it was bp spam only
molten citrus
sub definiyly the most omegalul m+ spec in sl
i think you're overstating it a bit, as usual, but ye it was easy
random hare
guess when it became hard zac
LOL
in s3 i think
blackpowder had 15% chance to give full cp
basically ace
leaden prairie
i think you're overstating it a bit, as usual, but ye it was easy
i think if you were bad at sub in sl you were litteraly a grandma
random hare
and people were crying
lilac stag
ye sec tech wasn't tuned well
It was also broken. We had to beg realz to look at it during beta.
leaden prairie
or like a grandma with only one hand
random hare
leaden prairie
mouse clicking
random hare
i think if you were bad at sub in sl you were litteraly a grandma
u literally could play sub mouseclicking tho
molten citrus
i think if you were bad at sub in sl you were litteraly a grandma
as i said, there were still easier specs
molten citrus
brother
leaden prairie
outlaw was mega easy too apart from bonespike build
we played mfd in m+ with basically every build so i disagree with that
random hare
it was one of the hardest
alpine wraith
kyrian outlaw was fun with dust
random hare
wait what was easy i think bm hunter is always easy
leaden prairie
turn off the zoomer brain aneurism for like
no !
random hare
sub was mega braindead and it probably still is
random hare
s3 DF sub was super easy
molten citrus
leaden prairie
you
leaden prairie
guess what made sub hard in SL
not falling asleep when doing the aoe rotation
random hare
rest was finish at x amount of cp
thats it
rest was press sinister strike without AR
acoustic lodge
Man, i miss DF season 2 sub
molten citrus
It was also broken. We had to beg realz to look at it during beta.
ye i remember how bad it was, glad they fixed it instead of canning it
random hare
thats it
vestal escarp
Day 3 of snapping zac and zeross back to reality
random hare
Day 3 of snapping zac and zeross back to reality
who are you
wanna fight or
lilac stag
Day 3 of snapping zac and zeross back to reality
To be continued until sub nerfs on Wed
random hare
guys when u see eleem again can u ask him if ptr sub changed in rotation
lilac stag
alpine wraith
nah nothing changes on rotation
leaden prairie
also !
molten citrus
don't think we can know that without sims but yeh
tropic nimbus
To be continued until sub nerfs on Wed
is this what happens when OL aint meta?
narrow night
is the tierset on the ptr working? i am perma stuck at 10 stacks and dont even lose them when i remove the tier
leaden prairie
there is one thing tho zero
oh actually
i dont think this actually changes anyuthing
nvm
alpine wraith
is the tierset on the ptr working? i am perma stuck at 10 stacks and dont even l...
yea some people have this bug
random hare
i dont think this actually changes anyuthing
oh ok
random hare
is the tierset on the ptr working? i am perma stuck at 10 stacks and dont even l...
it gets removed on key start/boss start
leaden prairie
you still press blades after
lilac stag
is this what happens when OL aint meta?
Every time there’s a hint of sub being good
leaden prairie
idk
sick jackal
is the tierset on the ptr working? i am perma stuck at 10 stacks and dont even l...
thats a good bug lets keep it
alpine wraith
as long as you use blades 0.4 secs before clones hit they will benefit yes
random hare
u dont perma stay 10
alpine wraith
same as all server tick dependant things
narrow night
u dont perma stay 10
ok im just lucky
alpine wraith
it is just a bug that happened on some chars
random hare
it always stays 10 stacks but if u track it u may notice it can happen once a key
that it drops low
then goes back to 10
idk what causes it yet
may be just the dungeon
narrow night
ok just wanna know if the buff works or not
random hare
some dungeons i felt like i never went below 10
hazy breach
It does work
hazy breach
The 4p works
lilac stag
Eleem can you tell zeross all the rational changes in 11.1 please. 
hazy breach
2p doesnt work on shadowed finishers
random hare
i see 
we dont have shadow finishers tho @leaden prairie does that change our rotation?
leaden prairie
why are you asking me
molten citrus
leaden prairie
im confused
random hare
hi confused zac
alpine wraith
ahahaha
random hare
how are you
random hare
s3 sub was fun ngl
alpine wraith
i hated that tier set but it would be fun yes
lilac stag
S3 sub was shit
random hare
i enjoyed it
alpine wraith
i love having 0 agency on my dmg
random hare
especially with cache trinket
omgomgom
@leaden prairie dude if cheating trinkets still worked
i would've used cache
20%+ of my dps fr fr
alpine wraith
i meant at its time
alpine wraith
wonder if they will ever make soul cap great again
random hare
theres a trinket thats stronger than transmitter and has mainstat too
there are stronger btw
than blademasters
i researched alot on cheating items
alpine wraith
assurance of consecuence and hollow toxin were omegasilly
alpine wraith
how about 57% CDR on your main cd?
or 360% dmg on ambush
dont think many come close
soul cap was good because it procced on pull too
random hare
those 2
omg
i used them on ptr
i ended 1st boss of theater of pain at 10 million dps on sin rogue
its that broken
lmao
random hare
dude
do u understand
what 10m end of fight means
lemme check how much casual did on sub
on that boss
molten citrus
pvp trinkets used to be quite decent
they've been good in pve in the past haven't they?
like on live
lilac stag
Rarely
molten citrus
ik ret used the badge in sl at some point
lilac stag
Pve trinkets have to be total garbo
random hare
4m
only
i did 10m
but i had other cheating items too
like the legendary boots in legion
3 sockets
and few busted shit
so i kinda doubled everyone's dps on ptr
was fun
theres a trinket that still works tho
i dont think the one who fixed cheating gear knows
gives perma 10k agility
insane
alpine wraith
they've been good in pve in the past haven't they?
not for the past 3 or 4 years no only when other trinkets are quite bad
they go off their way to underbudget them
random hare
oh ye i was using azerite gear too
azerite gear gave 2x agility of 1 item
neck didnt work tho sadly
molten citrus
not for the past 3 or 4 years no only when other trinkets are quite bad
ye ik they haven't been used since sl
i just don't know much about pre sl/post wrath
sl s1 you could get them to actual max ilvl
iirc they were even a decent option for rogue, just not bis or anything
alpine wraith
yea they were kinda in lvl with dungeon trinks
last time i used a pvp trink was in bfa for double on use
how many years ago was that actually?
molten citrus
yep
tribal blade
what exactly is not working on our new tier, i don't know specifics, just that it's not working
molten citrus
it's mostly working
alpine wraith
only thing that does not work is the amp on shadowed finishers
everything else is working rn
tribal blade
not dropping stacks SHEEEESH
hazy breach
Ye the stacks arent dropping correctly is the main thing
Either they dont drop at all or they drop per hit instead of per cast
2p Not buffing shadowed finishers is kinda expected
Seeing as pretty much nothing in deathstalker buffs it
tribal blade
wonderful
so if the new tier doesn't buff shadowed finishers it's basically only buffing sectec at least for trickster
dense torrent
If stacks were dropping correctly what would be the impact?
alpine wraith
well problem is things like hunt them down mark etc are being buffed
so trickster still takes a big L
hitting it when its down even
molten citrus
If stacks were dropping correctly what would be the impact?
you'd do a bit less dmg outside of CDs basically
alpine wraith
they really dont like trickster
made it aids for outlaw
then when it seems fine on sub
hit the buff button for DS
i mean DS in itself seems a cool thematic right in the heads of people that dont play
you have these mark that you pop and do big dmg then a big finisher to end it
iron crane
If anyone could share their keybinds for pvp with their sublety rogue, I'd be very grateful. Just looking for ideas. Thanks!
alpine wraith
but then forget dance cdr exists
dense torrent
I don’t mind DS, been ripping it as sin
alpine wraith
like oh whoops teheee
yea only problem as sub is the mark bug and the lacking cdr
DS in itself does nothing special
although marks and other things hit like a truck after so many buffs
hazy breach
so if the new tier doesn't buff shadowed finishers it's basically only buffing s...
What. Its still buffing eviscerate
tribal blade
What. Its still buffing eviscerate
oh wait i'm a complete moron, disregard
i forgot about the 2pc
sometimes brain just not be working so well
brisk onyx
alpine wraith
it goes hand in hand with DN not buffing shadowed evis
likely the one that worked on the krangle as F that was shadowed evis in legion left for better pastures
and left some premium spaget
he was like one last act of defiance
and made all that code in arameo
tribal blade
would be cool if they just leaned into the shadow fantasy of sub and make all finishers do pure shadow dmg
alpine wraith
i would not mind FW only working inside dance the talent itself is a joke rn
or having two FW the normal one for phys things and an empowered one for dance that works with shadow things
tribal blade
yeah FW going back to it's original design would be cool
it doesn't really serve an interesting purpose right now
alpine wraith
the uptime is too big so it cant be powerful
tribal blade
you don't notice when it's active, it just serves to annoy when you don't have it active
alpine wraith
but also shadowed finishers exist
i kinda lowkey hate that talent for some years now
i have given up on the split dmg things tho
tribal blade
could be a good 2 for 1 change, change shadowed finishers and then they're free to change FW
alpine wraith
seems someone is really scared of big numbers at blizz
every time the big dmg also comes in frost it gets nerfed to oblivion
and people get steered to spamming icelance again
same as arcane with big barrages
tribal blade
i guess massive hits are an issue when pvp exists
alpine wraith
or frost dk with big olbiterates
pvp already has the big hits nerfed by like 70 to 80%
since so long ago
likely sub gets another nef in pvp
week 1
tribal blade
yeah it's kinda funny seeing how much some spells are nerfed in pvp
tribal blade
jesus
alpine wraith
dont worry fury warrior and others are the same i just dont keep up as much now on pvp
i dont really play it since sl
kinda like watching sometimes but not much more
molten citrus
even DN caught like a -66% nerf this season
alpine wraith
sub also had a big problem for blizz because of shadowy duel
and even now they have deleted it
molten citrus
rogue stays catching Ls in pvp design lately
alpine wraith
you could never let sub have decent damage alone because of that talent
because it let people have checkmate situations
so now what you have as sub is omegacoordination
molten citrus
its funny because
alpine wraith
or a game of uno where you play cards and the others reply
molten citrus
a good player doesn't die to just duel
alpine wraith
until you can get a +8 on the,m
yea duel was just the finisher
you still had to make all of their others cds and cross cc the others
but blizz say NONON
and well there were also things that never got fixed like MM rapid fire
or aff raptures going through it
valid sundial
Hello fellow Subtlety rogues. How are we looking next season?
valid sundial
Nice
alpine wraith
it can only be better
numbers we hit about to be big
only issue is we have no idea how other classes/specs are
so for now im happy bugs got fixed
valid sundial
Oh yeah thats true. Isn't tier tuning suppose to be happening soon?
alpine wraith
who knows
someone said this one was tagged as release candidate
so likely patch is less than 1 month away some speculate maybe march 4 or 1x
weary saffron
i'm just excited to take replicating shadows without hating myself
alpine wraith
if i knew how to edit well i could go through my videos in m+ and just make a slideshow of my face every time i mess up because of the bug
valid sundial
What was the bug exactly?
tribal blade
What was the bug exactly?
the shadowcraft refund would have a delay if you talented into replicating shadows
you were basically losing entire finishers to it
valid sundial
Well at least it's fixed now
I know the adr bug is fixed next patch but unfortunately it's a patch too late for me
rocky ocean
the shadowcraft refund would have a delay if you talented into replicating shado...
still had delayed refunds even without the talent
tribal blade
still had delayed refunds even without the talent
yeah it's still a thing even without it talented
but it's less bad
hazy breach
What was the bug exactly?
The shadowed rupture ticks counted as "finishers" for shadowcraft
hazy breach
still had delayed refunds even without the talent
Coup also works like this because it has 3 hits
It can also delay the proc
rocky ocean
spaghetti code
swift tinsel
Is the tier set working normally now? Saw the line taken out of the most recent pin about it being bugged
swift tinsel
Did the fix the shadow amp or is that still scuffed
swift tinsel
Progress
stuck linden
I know the adr bug is fixed next patch but unfortunately it's a patch too late f...
What adr bug?
valid sundial
Pressing stealth while subterfuge is up makes adr tick down
stuck linden
Oh yeah
tribal blade
i showed a warr on my raid team our bugs list the other day
and his exact words were "what the fuck is going on with your class"
alpine wraith
well a lot of them got fixed surprisingly
hardy snow
tier seems rolled back to an early version?
molten citrus
- some people are still experiencing perma stacks
- if not perma stacks, multiple hits clear stacks (BP)
- 2pc not working with shadowed finishers
i think that's it
molten citrus
I'm really curious why only some people are getting perma-stacks
either they're still using their tier items from before the fix, or it's just still bugged
hardy snow
do we pre symbol before pull? i forgot
lilac stag
Yes
tribal blade
just press it after a wipe every time
lilac stag
How are you doing @tribal blade ?
tribal blade
How are you doing <@146180393941336064> ?
not bad, how bout you?
lilac stag
Decent. Bad migraine all day. Streamers in here kept me entertained.
lilac stag
Thx. Kinda out of nowhere.
tribal blade
i've never honestly even had a bad headache ever i don't think
nothing that would bother me much
lilac stag
You are blessed
median mesa
which sub guide is the most up to date?
alpine wraith
there have been no changes lately so all of them are kinda up there
wonder what date is mine even
some months ago i think
molten citrus
which sub guide is the most up to date?
!guide
molten citrus
those should all be
lyric venture
!bugs
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue
steel zinc
The shadowed rupture ticks counted as "finishers" for shadowcraft
Makes finality a dead talent Note or?
hazy breach
Makes finality a dead talent Note or?
What
Rs bug being fixed does not make finality a dead talent
steel zinc
No I meant because of finality the tier set counts rupture Ticks as finisher
Like with assa when it was bugged
hazy breach
Finality has nothing to do with that
And tier doesnt interact with rupture in any way
So i have no idea what you are talking about
vale pine
4m overall in workshop +12 <a:HELLAWICKED:869777000984871033>
nice
random hare
sub rogue is so op in that key
the downtime is insane
u can fuck the key's ass so hard with 1.5 min cds
tribal blade
are people still doing the strat of the tank soloing the first room
random hare
not yet
hazy breach
Ye i assume the intent of that change was to prevent that, but maybe it still works
random hare
tanks matter so fucking much for sub's overall dps
its crazy
its like
each second ur waiting on ur cd
thats alot of dps gone from ur overall
hazy breach
Yes
minor trout
dear sub friends, i'm trying to get back into subRogue, should we ever press Secret Technique outside of dance? wowhead and icyveins state it differently ^^ wowhead says we use secret technique even without dance if we have symbols up
in single target
hazy breach
dear sub friends, i'm trying to get back into subRogue, should we ever press Sec...
Technically you can if you are 10000% sure it will be up for your next dance anyway
But its a very minor gain
And if you dont do it properly you lose a lot
minor trout
so better just send during dance while praciticing until i get a feeling for it
hazy breach
Absolutely
minor trout
thanks 
hazy breach
Although i suspect it will not be worth to use outside dance next patch with new tier
We'll see. Tier should be in simc very soon so we can get some more definite answers
tribal blade
yeah makes sense considering we lose the +20% sectec dmg and +16% finisher during symbols
vestal escarp
🤞pls robot make us spam rupture outside dance 
hazy breach
🤞pls robot make us spam rupture outside dance <:Prayge:801202094845329448>
Even if it ends up not being worth it on average in a ST sim
It could still be worthwhile in a lot of situations
Before a burst phase or a big important pack you definitely want to have the stacks ready
tribal blade
i can imagine a general rule will be stop using evis/bp X seconds out from dance
lilac stag
Not like you really have energy to use anything outside of CDs
vestal escarp
Even if it ends up not being worth it on average in a ST sim
Average key word there
Because on the mass iterations robot can press evis outside and not lose it for example
Gamba tier set ffs 
hazy breach
I mean the gamba flavour is on point
Do you gamba for more damage but risk losing the stacks or do you play it safe?
lilac stag
Outlaw tier it is.
minor trout
as trickster should i first spread ruptures before entering cds? or if pack is stacked directly enter when i have rupture on main target^^
hazy breach
Generally spread while the pack is gathering ye
And if its all stacked just send asap
vestal escarp
Challenge: buff rupture without breaking ST
echo magnet
Yo quick question I see on wowhead it says to use shadow blades right after secret techniques why is this?
chrome palm
Shadow blades is currently bugged and doesn’t buff secret technique, this is fixed on PTR though
echo magnet
Ah so next patch we just macro shadow blades in with everything else? 
chrome palm
what’s everything else
I imagine you macro it with trinket next tier though hard to say
echo magnet
Symbols and shadow dance
fallow nimbus
Probably just like now
Premed is still there and the secret clones are still delayed
Maybe trickster can use secret as 2nd finisher again but DS is too tight with cdr for that
hazy breach
Ah so next patch we just macro shadow blades in with everything else? <:peepoLik...
The main thing is that the strike before already fills up your CP through premed
So using blades together with the other spells is effectively "wasting" one second of blades
leaden prairie
Eleem i have a question
would you press blades before sec tech or for the next gcd
hazy breach
And sectech initial hit doesnt do that much damage anyway, so you can delay it 2 seconds without losing much
hazy breach
2s compared to the dance/symbols
hazy breach
1 and 1.3
vale pine
^ also why you don't want to secret last gcd in dance
restive briar
Does energy outside of dance windows feel very sad or am I just bad
uneven scarab
nope thats sub rogue
restive briar
Oki doki so I am not that terrible
vale pine
Does energy outside of dance windows feel very sad or am I just bad
the rotation is designed to be slow outside of cooldowns
fallow nimbus
Secret should snap dmg amps, just saying 
restive briar
the rotation is designed to be slow outside of cooldowns
Thank you thank you, I was worried I was giga missmanaging my energy or something like that
uneven scarab
nah we have 0 energy/damage outside of cd’s
strange compass
Anyone else feel like Outlaw's Crackshot/Vanish CDR gameplay loop is what Sub should be?
Also has the Tier set been fixed on PTR yet? just saw that the PTR build is a release candidate and from what I can tell it still doesn't work.
lilac stag
Nothing from outlaw needs to be in the sub gameplay
Check the pins. Tier still hugged.
strange compass
I don't see anything about Nimble fury being 40% even tho the tool tip says 50% so that is probably still there too
uneven scarab
Nothing from outlaw needs to be in the sub gameplay
Shadow Blades would like to speak with you 
swift tinsel
*and blade flurry
keen dome
bring back cannon barrage
cobalt edge
heya, returning to subrogue - whats the current strat regarding shadow dance/symbols of death usage? i get that first two are used during shadowblades window, but what then? Should i use the next ones as soon as my secret technique comes up?
hazy breach
Make sure you have enough for your next blades+flag
cobalt edge
Make sure you have enough for your next blades+flag
oh, i hate it
still, understandable, ty!
hazy breach
But thats usually 1 or two inbetween
Typically on a st fight it would be burst > 2 dances > burst > 1 dance > burst > 2 dances > repeat
hazy breach
oh, i hate it
As for exactly when you use them, it doesnt matter that much but you gotta make sure you have sectech inside each dance+symbols
cobalt edge
thanks for that! one more thing, on top logs i see people use cold blood on the second secret technique during the fight, whats the big diff?
uneven scarab
second secret tech is more amped in ur cd's due to flag/flawless stacks
its a minor gain to use it there
cobalt edge
ty
damn, im starting to miss shadowdust xd
foggy geode
First mythic queen tonight as a rogue since I rerolled few weeks back - Any rogue tips other than for breaking roots
Shadowstep the p2 knockbacks?
vale pine
you can vanish them, you can cloak
for the knockback or pull in, shadowstep can do wonders
spare totem
anyone by chance have ptr m+ build?
spare totem
okay ty
lilac stag
First mythic queen tonight as a rogue since I rerolled few weeks back - Any rogu...
Look at llorggs and view defensive usage.
foggy geode
Ah thanks, forgot that thing existed
lilac stag
Depending what your raid needs. Assa better boss dmg. Sub better for platforms.
dense mountain
i started to do some sub rouge pulls in raid and noticed in my opener sometimes i wasnt able to get my vanish into shadowstrike off because i was insta pulled out of stealth. Is this just skill issue or is there anything i can do to help get this off more consistently
foggy geode
Depending what your raid needs. Assa better boss dmg. Sub better for platforms.
currently I don't even give them the opinion of me as assa 
dense mountain
like wait a bit after my previous evis to press vanish until later in my gcd?
hazy breach
ye
dense mountain
another thing i didn't understand was during some of my dance windows, after SS my combo points would go 5 then 7 shortly after. is this just a visual bug or is this expected and can be played around?
dense mountain
RS bug is like when my refund proc gets munched right?
tepid trellis
its just a delayed "refund"
flint parrot
!symbols
molten citrus
!sod
wicked joltBOT
Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs
thorny kestrel
yo trying sub again for next season. Are we supposed to feel somewhat energy starved between sectech/ dance windows in aoe?
molten citrus
**__Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges:__**```
#showtooltip Symbo...
@flint parrot
molten citrus
yo trying sub again for next season. Are we supposed to feel somewhat energy st...
ye
flint parrot
thanks a lot brother
molten citrus
thorny kestrel
damn, i hate that. so we just chill then during those times. It felt ass to play during downtime
molten citrus
ye that's just how sub is
thorny kestrel
I take it that's more of a new thing. It didn't feel like that in DF season 2 when last I played i guess
molten citrus
rogue has always been an energy based class, but at different times regen has been a bit different
but it's not really a new thing no
thorny kestrel
right. regen felt better during that time and before it. I stopped playing it after df seas 2, and never felt that energy starved
this iteration though, st isn't so bad on the energy starve. it feels less intrusive but on aoe, doh
molten citrus
it's pretty much always been slow outside of CDs
not sure about how it was particularly in DF, i wasn't doing pve
thorny kestrel
yeah at least personally, never felt this energy starved. probably just have to expect it so I don't rage quit
jaunty umbra
yea energy felt a lot better before rework
hazy breach
Its been the same since amirdrassil
thorny kestrel
amir was s3 right
hazy breach
But idk it doesnt really matter. I like that the energy is slow outside cds
Because it makes it so downtime isnt so punishing
As youre not generating that much cdr anyway
thorny kestrel
yeah amir was s3, quit in s2 so never felt that
hazy breach
Ye in s2 when sub was just purple outlaw
thorny kestrel
hell yeeeah, it was so good
hazy breach
Ye i sure love backstab being 35% of my damage
thorny kestrel
most of my gripe about energy starve is on aoe, so didn't really do much bsing
lilac stag
so much for Resonating Heart granting Agility
vale pine
Ye i sure love backstab being 35% of my damage
classic players rly love that, they want it more like 90% of their damage tho
brisk raptor
mag'har orc pretty solid now for sub?
lilac stag
Yes
random mason
classic players rly love that, they want it more like 90% of their damage tho
Nah auto attack first spot on all melees
vale pine
rocky mortar
how is macro usage for dance + SS. and is adding symbols to that a poor decision?
tropic nimbus
so much for Resonating Heart granting Agility
I saw that too but when it procs it says 20k agi up top in buffs 🤷♂️
hazy breach
how is macro usage for dance + SS. and is adding symbols to that a poor decision...
That macro doesnt work anymore and adding symbols to it isnt good because theyre not always used at the exact same time
lilac stag
I saw that too but when it procs it says 20k agi up top in buffs 🤷♂️
I didn’t even see it showing the buff. 
I’ll check again later
I want to mess with the energy drink more as well
rocky mortar
That macro doesnt work anymore and adding symbols to it isnt good because theyre...
doesn't work? or not good to pair. . . symbols being on a charge system I'd assumed those 2 would be paired most of the time. . . but dance + SS macro not working isnt' something i expected
do you just dance + backstab if you wanna macro it? though that's a really big hit. even if it's guaranteed find weakness
at least it feels like it'd be a big hit
alpine wraith
yep that macro got killed in df
rocky mortar
just tested it, and it looks like it used it :(.
alpine wraith
if you press it more than once it works
rocky mortar
it was workign pressed once :(.
alpine wraith
kinda interesting although i would not use it
hazy breach
doesn't work? or not good to pair. . . symbols being on a charge system I'd assu...
Keyword being most of the time
Not always
rocky mortar
curious why. if you get full cp coming out of dance. you'd wanna dump energy > dance right? or are you using dance > evis > SS > evis to try and fit more under dance?
ya symbols not being pared doesn't really bother me
it's more the dance .> SS and dance > evis where I can't hit them back to back fast enough reliably
rocky mortar
ss + dance macro works but inconsistently. so ya not an option
lilac stag
The sooner you don’t rely on macros as sub, the smoother the spec plays.
rocky mortar
it's more the hitting dance + symbols + SS. or dance + evis i have difficulty doing over a long fight consistently.
hands get tired lol.
alpine wraith
yea try to goup them together
or do the old 12345
i have used my binds too long now but there could be better places for sure for mine
hazy breach
Atleast you can rest your hand between dances 
rocky mortar
ya assa i tend to use in raid most the time. . . but odly I prefer sub in dungeons. . . assa has a lot to do for their AoE
hazy breach
But ye possible you have keybinds that are straining too much if theyre too far apart but idk
rocky mortar
very possible
dry plank
!sod
wicked joltBOT
Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs
rocky mortar
rn if have BS + SS on 3. with dance on alt + 3. and symbols on alt + 2 (evis on 2). Shuriken storm on 4, black powder on 5
flagg alt + 4. rupture on 1. Secret tech on alt + 1
paper helm
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
nimble spade
So I just ran a 12 ToP on PTR with a Sub Rogue that was absolutely shitting on everything. Could someone please explain what on earth was going on? LOL
hazy breach
Tier set stacks cant drop/fall off for some characters
hazy breach
Ive seen clips and stream where people have it perma, but my characters have it drop of (it drops of more than it should too fwiw)
Ive heard before about old ptr spell data messing with stuff
nimble spade
Oh
So that's why there was a Sub doing like 13M in some pulls
Got it. Unfortunate
hazy breach
Well it doesnt really make the burst bigger
It just makes you do like 800k outside burst instead of 400k
hazy breach
Ye spec is good
nimble spade
I'm messing with all the PTR tanks and I was like "god damn, people were too busy talking about the blue class and Boomkin"
hazy breach
The spec is very very solid on live already, slightly weaker than assa. And the only changes for next tier is a better tier set and some bugfixes so
nimble spade
Well, I'd imagine the bugfixes are a substantial gain, no?
nimble spade
Like 2-3%
That's not nothing. 2-3% on some specs on live would make them very strong in raid
hazy breach
I didnt say it was nothing
alpine wraith
it is more the tier set reaffirms our dmg window to be even stronger
so even if the overall dps is not hugely impactful overall vs other classes
if something needs to die fast
we are there
lilac stag
Something something people nutting over their ptr dmg
jaunty heath
It’s this guys main content
Every ptr cycle he appears everywhere
Once the season starts he’s gone
keen dome
Powerful
leaden prairie
i didnt know you could shorten an entire key in 2min, actual zoomer content
keen dome
Why is his computer in the closet
alpine wraith
rent so high you live in someone else's closet
shrewd grail
Do we have diff % dps between trickster / ds as sub in aoe already ?
hazy breach
About the same rn on live. Shouldnt be much different on ptr
shrewd grail
Kk cause sometimes i pull so much higher with ds maybe cause tierset bugg i guess
hazy breach
Could be that youre not playing them optimally too
Playing deathstalker aoe optimally is horrendously unfun, so wouldnt recommend
shrewd grail
Yeah im also learning so probably Tons of mistakes
lilac stag
Eleem did you ever run a sim seeing the difference of ignoring FW from Storm as second builder in dance on 5+ targets (basically just strike BP after Sectech/coup)
hazy breach
Yes
You wouldnt BP without the storm
So the loss is very very big once you get to higher pull counts, but i dont remember the exact difference at 5, probaby like 1.5-2% or so
hazy breach
Yeah im also learning so probably Tons of mistakes
There lots of stuff thats not intuitive about sub, id recommend really reading through the guides even if youre typically a player that just picks up a spec and feels it out
!guides
lilac stag
It’s actually hilarious how much better the cp refund feels with RS on the ptr
alpine wraith
ye big fix for mental
with having to do 100 m+ first weeks
would make spec popularity crater even more kekw
if it was not fixewd
shrewd grail
There lots of stuff thats not intuitive about sub, id recommend really reading t...
Ty, try to read them all , im only playing sub in pvp now im trying pve with it
fallow nimbus
Just be ahead of the rs bug
alpine wraith
you could not in live
it is random between 0,4 and 1.2
that you can get the reset instead of when you use the finisher
lilac stag
infuriating explains it well
lilac stag
Easier to just rage on the keeb
hardy snow
!bug
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue
sand monolith
Hello. I just started WoW and started with subtltey rogue and grinded out till ilvl 622 and I'm struggling keeping up on damage with a lot of other classes and even the tank. i'm sure I'm hitting my rotations well. When I burn all my cds, I'm getting only about 700k. Is sub just week right now or are these average numbers and we just bring other things to the table like multiple interrupts and shroud plays?
weary saffron
what is said rotation
hazy breach
Sub keeps up with dps, but its fairly complicated and punishing if you make mistakes
weary saffron
700k sounds like something is goin wrong
you should be able to single target something as trickster in 622 gear and do well over that, without any of the incindental aoe
sand monolith
I'd say it peaks around 1.1mil but once the cds start dropping off, it gets to about 700k yeah. Maybe 800k
Single target on training dummies
The only thing I'm not doing is doing a vanish SS in my rotation since I feel like that might be a bit wasteful on vanish
sullen hare
There's a reason we vanish
weary saffron
sub definitely keeps up with other classes though
sand monolith
How much dps are people here getting on training dummies and at what ilvl?
hazy breach
The easiest way to identify if youre doing anything wrong is logging and analyzing the logs
And either posting them here hoping somebody can take a look at them and help or compare your casts and percentages to another log
slate lantern
Eleem is your rotation video unlisted? Or is YouTubes search just that bad, cause I always have trouble finding it even when I search "Eleem subtlety rogue"
weary saffron
damn way to tell him hes upopular
sullen hare
How much dps are people here getting on training dummies and at what ilvl?
I'm not sure what you're looking for but this is from the Friday run my community runs. Also I'm not a perfect player so I make mistakes
Normal kyveza is just about as close as you're gonna get to a patchwerk
Also it's a drunk raid so by the time we get to kyveza I've had a few drinks
iron crane
I'm leveling up my rogue and somehow sinister strike has gone missing. It's not in my action bar and I don't see it in the spellbound. does it just go away at a certain level? I'm at 17
in the spellbook
sand monolith
My numbers are with no consumable buff so no food buff, potions etc but even then, I can't imaging dps just doubling
hazy breach
I'm leveling up my rogue and somehow sinister strike has gone missing. It's not ...
Should be replaced with backstab at a certain level
slate lantern
My numbers are with no consumable buff so no food buff, potions etc but even the...
It's a very punishing burst rotation, plus learning about what to send when is a whole nother task. I'm an outlaw one trick and still find my brain hurting on learning the sub burst rules lol
random hare
https://vm.tiktok.com/ZNeoW99mL/
I was waiting for myself to burst on dps lmao
I think those were one of my very first keys on sub
I didnt know what i was pressing
Would probably double that dps by now
jaunty heath
Oh idc about the numbers was just funny to see you in a tiktok on my fyp
random hare
spark tusk
Once the season starts he’s gone
now that's what I call Content ™️
covert storm
is there a good rule of thumb when to hold ur dance on the 4th sectec vs sending
slate lantern
is there a good rule of thumb when to hold ur dance on the 4th sectec vs sending
Hachadino's sheet has a good lil timeline of when to use your various abilities in different windows
random hare
!guide
random hare
Is there a specific mob count where u storm instead of strike on trickster aoe?
tribal blade
Is there a specific mob count where u storm instead of strike on trickster aoe?
don't think so because you don't want to lose unseen blade hits from strike
random hare
Okay
tribal blade
and everything will have FW already from 1 storm cast w/ rotten
maybe there's a number where it becomes worth, but i imagine it's really high
random hare
Is there a mob count to stop striking in aoe for deathstalker and just storm bp? Then strike 1 mob for singular focus and just ignore the mark dmg to fully pump bp dmg? Surely right?
tribal blade
DS you can play like old sub aoe with storm>BP
first global in dance you can strike to consume premed
and build a DM stack
then just spam storm>bp
random hare
I can ignore darkest night?
strange sail
with deathstalker is black powder a prio gain at 3 targets
tribal blade
if you mean ignore DN then i don't think you can ignore it, you have to consume to reapply mark
random hare
I want to ignore it in big aoe pulls for sure
tribal blade
i think you lose too much dropping mark
it's why DS is so ass for sub
not entirely sure because i just run trickster everywhere
random hare
Well I can mark 1 mob
And spam bp
Im talking like
10 mobs kind of shit
5 I’ll for sure evisc
tribal blade
the problem is once DN procs you don't have mark on the target anymore
and you have to evis to reapply mark
random hare
U can mark a mob and have DN up tho
slate marlin
As ds im pretty sure u bp at 2 targets
tribal blade
oh right
random hare
It still keeps singular focus going
But not mark dmg
Don’t think mark dmg is that big is it
Besides it’s only funnel dmg right?
tribal blade
i think there was some tech about tab targeting and striking a new target
random hare
Not aoe
tribal blade
so that way you can just keep mark rolling and not deal with DN
random hare
i think there was some tech about tab targeting and striking a new target
Yes that’s how u play it ideally
But I don’t know how many targets that part becomes bad
tribal blade
not sure either
random hare
i think there was some tech about tab targeting and striking a new target
@vale pine how many targets does this stop being a thing to do?
vale pine
what prophet mentioned is only worth on few targets so 2 or 3
you don't tab target with a higher amount of mobs
random hare
you don't tab target with a higher amount of mobs
How many mobs does it stop being worth
Wait is it 2-3?
vale pine
yes
random hare
Oh ok and above 3 is storm?
Also, is blackpowder on 3 targets with deathstalker more funnel than eviscerate?
Idk if u guys simmed that part
And what about darkest night in aoe, can I just strike a mob for singular focus and ignore mark until the pack is like 5 mobs?
vale pine
Oh ok and above 3 is storm?
you strike for premed after dance, then storm then continue striking
hollow spear
But afaik you have to consume DN if you play normally
vale pine
but don't need to tab target
random hare
But afaik you have to consume DN if you play normally
I mean ur only losing the mark dmg
Not singular focus if u strike a mob while DN is up
Shouldn’t be that big of a loss on big aoe pulls
Unless eviscerate does some magical pump aoe dmg
leaden prairie
It does feel kinda troll to accidentally proc dn in huge AOE
And having to spend it ?
tulip gorge
I feel like they should change the logic of darkest night to just reapply the mark on the old target if you're using an aoe finisher
leaden prairie
btw i have a question
say i press strike 2 times in st in dance
and i end up with 6 cp and dn
do i just kill myself
random hare
Yea
Wait u won’t strike twice and end up at 6
That’s horrible rng
U might aswell delete ur charecter at that point
random hare
That’s horrible rng
Is it even possible
tulip gorge
just vanish 4Head
leaden prairie
I ended up with 6 cp in dance sometimes very rarely
So ye idk
Might be a shuriken storm into strike tho
Like the free shuriken storm or whatever
Or just a single strike into 6 cp
I do feel like killing myself when that happen tho
Surely you don't strike for a single cp
tulip gorge
this is why most people play trickster
barren wolf
I do feel like killing myself when that happen tho
dont zaques
if monk is good next tier there might be a chance i prog on it
white briar
Surely you don't strike for a single cp
apl says you do, whether it matters or not 
leaden prairie
Apl is fake
Also I do wonder if it was even tested
Or if it happen enough to matter
Or if maybe it's a mistake from before
That makes me end up with 6 cp
No I mean I guess you can always end up with 6 with a proc of the cp thingy
And then ye idk
leaden prairie
if monk is good next tier there might be a chance i prog on it
No wae gg
vestal escarp
Test and happens not often but still happens enough for people to complain
Play is still get to 7
keen dome
Just gotta have positive thought and will that final combie into existence
white briar
situational though right? like if it's the last global in a cooldown and your options are build to max or use a finisher under CDs. or no?
vestal escarp
The trade off is that if you evis at 6 inside dance and dance ends
You still have dn up
No mark
Sod is over
And you're gonna miss a lot of benefits from the mark
lilac stag
Reminder. Deathstalker is shit.
vestal escarp
Cause building to 7 outside dance takes time
frank musk
Reminder. Deathstalker is shit.
tepid trellis
Reminder. Deathstalker is shit.
you'd think DS is as bad as it could feel
lilac stag
Haha
vestal escarp
You brought that unto yourself racoonman
random hare
Might be a shuriken storm into strike tho
U know that u consume witness out of dance right
Not in
tepid trellis
i cba playing assa
keen dome
like you just cant send dances
It feels so bad, god.
tepid trellis
i fall asleep
lilac stag
Stay awake with rage from DS no skyfury. Got it. Ahaha
lilac stag
We were missing skyfury 3 nights of court prog
tepid trellis
we are gearing new classes for next tier
lilac stag
It was so much pain
tepid trellis
so we had 0 shamans until queen
leaden prairie
U know that u consume witness out of dance right
maybe well
i dont know anything cuh
keen dome
I'm just going to play trickster and pretend that's all there is.
leaden prairie
isnt it so funnny
how if depending on the comp
in m+
you just do 15 to 20% more damage
just cause of raid buffs
surely they can tune around that
tepid trellis
keen dome
Just give us all raid buffs in M+
vestal escarp
keen dome
Create a new NPC. His name is Randy the Raid Buffer. He's a Gnome. He's in the corner of every dungeon and he appears when you put the stone in. And he just buffs you for 60 mintues with every raid buff and gives you a thumbs up
leaden prairie
me when next season comp is prot pal, disc priest, boomie
leaden prairie
and i cant play rogue
vestal escarp
No?
leaden prairie
cause no totem gg
leaden prairie
its fine
tepid trellis
sub + aug is fine
leaden prairie
when you gonna press your cooldowns on that 40 stacks spymaster
wait spymaster is gone
gg
vestal escarp
Bro pumps you with EM and you be like no sorry family im holding
tepid trellis
aug technically speaking isnt 2min either
keen dome
Warrior/Druid/Sub/Sub/Sub. That's my comp speculation
vestal escarp
Unironically fury rog dk could be a thing
keen dome
We must build our own totem. Stack the rogues.
leaden prairie
Unironically fury rog dk could be a thing
go back to sleep cuh
vestal escarp
Stfu
leaden prairie
bro just named all the worse specs
vestal escarp
Go back >>> #outlul
barren wolf
i fall asleep
leaden prairie
when
lilac stag
Frost DK is pumping
leaden prairie
in sl ?
vestal escarp
Idk take an appointment
leaden prairie
show me where fury is strong bozo
keen dome
On ovinax!
tulip gorge
fury recently got a stealth 20% buff to their most used abilities I think
keen dome
See even I know that
barren wolf
ww will bust balls just you wait
barren wolf
i will be there
keen dome
My favourite key I ever did in DF was a Monk/Monk/Monk/Monk/Rogue key
vestal escarp
show me where fury is strong bozo
Yeah lemme just pull the most cherrypicked details screenshot brb
leaden prairie
fury recently got a stealth 20% buff to their most used abilities I think
And outlaw could get a 50% aura buff it would still suck, what's your point
vestal escarp
Cake said fury is good on ptr i take that for good
barren wolf
And outlaw could get a 50% aura buff it would still suck, what's your point
least delusional outlaw player
tulip gorge
least delusional outlaw player
indeed
lilac stag
Um actually no longer outlawed or so I’ve been told.
barren wolf
theyve legalised doing dps?
keen dome
Add a proc chance when you use RTB, where you just kick the dice at the mobs
barren wolf
what if outlaw just rolls a dice for fun. does nothing and it just shows on screen an animation
a detection - like ability
throw die
lilac stag
Outlaw needs a table flip for its big finisher
keen dome
shipflip
lilac stag
I’m so angry just gonna flip the table.
leaden prairie
least delusional outlaw player
its not even that far off rn
barren wolf
it is quite far off
leaden prairie
you aint seen outlaw on ptr cuh