also im pretty sure RS is just a copy of IC since they both got smart cast at 10.2, problem with RS is in subs stuff
#subtlety
vestal escarp
fallow nimbus
i guess it secretly spawns invisible bunnies, cast garotte and rupture, but because of some wierd jank with akaaris soul back from legion it sometimes counts as you did a finisher and stored the cp proc from sht 
ghosts in the code man
vale pine
there is def. some spaghetti in their codebase
keen dome
ghosts in the code man
bunnies ex machina
lilac stag
Just ask chatgtp to do the bug fixing. Can’t really get worse.
fallow nimbus
maybe at the end of ptr we see some notes 
fallow nimbus
"hey chat gtp, fix this code" posts wow code. Chat gtp becomes sentient and deletes itself
lilac stag
“I’m sorry I can’t cook spaghetti.”
worn cape
"Hey ChatGPT, fix these bugs"
ChatGPT just rewrites the whole spec because it is easier.
lilac stag
It’d probably be an improvement.
fallow nimbus
getting away from the multiple hits shit and return back to just big one hits would be a big improvement
cyan lava
is trickster or deathstalker better
vale pine
Just ask chatgtp to do the bug fixing. Can’t really get worse.
don't jinx it, we might do that in a near future
vale pine
is trickster or deathstalker better
trickster
lilac stag
don't jinx it, we might do that in a near future
I figure it’s a chatgtp rework or a 300% buff to BP. I’m hopeful for the chatgtp rework.
keen dome
Just give it to me to do. I'll come up with something cool (at least six nodes will just be making the shadow dance colour change)
alpine wraith
as long as it does not have anything to do with taiwan
hexed sluice
Just give it to me to do. I'll come up with something cool (at least six nodes w...
Glyphs should literally be that, learn once per toon and just have em on nodes on the sides
hollow spear
Is there a reason for why coup triggers multiple instances of evis instead of just making the evis bigger?
hazy breach
Not really, they did initially copy the skeleton of DFA (without the backflip jump) and then stuck to it
Which is why it had weird animation locks and bugs
But as to why its 3 hits idk, DFA was 1 abysmally small hit into 1 big hit
Not 3
hollow spear
My bandaid solution for DN would actually be to make it work a bit like coup. Instead of the flat 60% damage, give it extra cp.
Should help the cdr problems
hollow spear
Not really, they did initially copy the skeleton of DFA (without the backflip ju...
Sounds like something Blizz would do 😅
pliant topaz
Not 3
in naivity we thought maybe it was to incentivize even more dance damage, since it gave 3 Dm stacks. but as they say, nothing cool lasts in wow
hazy breach
My guess is that the idea was for it to have a seperate (decent) animation to make it less like darkest night
But then they skipped it/ran out of time
And then theyre just stuck with a buggy mess that does nothing well
Probably reminiscent of DFA
pliant topaz
yeah for sure. the whole point of these hero talents was to add a bit of gameplay flavor but also a lot of cool animations and thematic stuff
which is why some of the most popular ones are filled with cool animations
but in blizzard fashion they fucked up, ran out of time, and said fuck it ship it we fix later, but then later never comes, because theres always more stuff to work on later
blizzard just the company of infinite tech debt
paper stirrup
im playing skardyn's grace cause cba with transmitter, it it worth holding my cooldowns 30 seconds to line up with trinket, or just send trinket every other cds?
wind canopy
You'd send it with every other. Basically a 3 minute trinket instead of a 2
paper stirrup
ok ty
wind canopy
Like in a 4 minute fight, you'd lose a set of CDs if you held it with your trinket vs. running it without (0, 1.5, 3 with trinket on 3 minutes vs. 0, 2 with CDs on trinket's 2 minute)
paper stirrup
true
edgy zenith
Can you pre-cloak the rash 4 person targeted web thing that you have to run out? Or is it just a gamba on that fight?
Want to parse, thinking about holding flag 12s on pull to bang the first adds lmao
But if I get webs it’s like omega cooked
quick swan
Just organise with your guild to run it to the side so you can hit the boss still
analog igloo
!guide
lilac stag
blizzard just the company of infinite tech debt
I do wonder at times if they have a teir list of bug priority and where stuff like specs/non-critial systems fall
pliant topaz
right about after new mage stuff
rocky ocean
I do wonder at times if they have a teir list of bug priority and where stuff li...
99% that they do
they just have very little people because most of the muscle has to work on next season, next expansion, diablo 4 horses, etc.
sick jackal
do we knnow if the thunderlords work with darkbrew?
molten citrus
do we knnow if the thunderlords work with darkbrew?
items and talents don't interact
sick jackal
unlucky
hybrid prism
I just kited and tanked the last boss in an ara kara 11 and saved the key. tank died at 23%
it got me over 2700 rating and now im the 4th ranked sub rogue on proudmoore
old venture
it got me over 2700 rating and now im the 4th ranked sub rogue on proudmoore
and the number one ranked sub rogue in my heart
hybrid prism
and the number one ranked sub rogue in my heart
tepid trellis
and the number one ranked sub rogue in my heart
hybrid prism
<:ApuCry:969982697252466789>
lilac stag
Please don’t poke the raccoon unless he requests to be poked. 
dry plank
right about after new mage stuff
Man they are busy making new shaman lightning animations. It is much more important
old venture
<:ApuCry:969982697252466789>
You’re my ewife wtf
tepid trellis
but im also a sub player
random hare
Stealthi the best sub my cat’s ever seen !
lilac stag
Man they are busy making new shaman lightning animations. It is much more import...
The new animations are sick. pewpewpew
fallow nimbus
Best eu west a little to the right upper middle corner
brisk onyx
teal prawn
Sick
native epoch
Hi. Can I ask something? Sometimes, after using vanish, shadow strike doesn't work. The stealth state doesn't go away, and there's no message saying that the skill can't be used. No matter how many times I press shadow strike, it just doesn't cast. Is this a bug?
pliant topaz
yep its a bug. if u cast vanish too fast after previous ability it bugs out. welcome to sub, the bug simulator spec
native epoch
thank u so much for your answer. But if that's the problem with pressing too quickly, I think shadow strike should be cast before vanish's stealth is broken (3 seconds). isn't it?
it's also bug? I mean, Even if the stealth state is not lifted after casting vanish,
So the only solution to this problem is to cast Eviscerate on rotation after pooling, then cast vanish after a short delay. right?
pliant topaz
yeah just delay it untill the gcd is over, and youre ready to strike. they changed stealth a bit in 11.0.5 and this is a new bug since then
native epoch
Thank u very much. sub has a lot of bugs...but to be honest I still love sub so I can't let it go 🤣
I sincerely appreciate your reply. Have a nice day!
barren wolf
sub cool asf youre right
pliant topaz
glad to hear youre enjoying sub. feel free to ask any questions here. lots of helpful people around here 
pseudo hollow
how do you do more than tank damage on last boss of NW
if you're saving dances for shields
and adds
or do u just send
and pray that they come back up
teal prawn
Always send never hold
hazy breach
and pray that they come back up
It lines up perfectly anyway
Skip a dance on the shield where your mate just came up with the buff and cds and youre good
grave delta
Do you save pot for 4:30 on single pot fights with house of cards or is the gain minimal
grave delta
so small ._.
pseudo hollow
It lines up perfectly anyway
so u just kind send on pull and keep sending?
and it just kinda
works?
hazy breach
Yes
Like you dont lose anything to hold dances for shields
So why not
Youll have one for every shield, 1 for when you get sent down and 2 for when you come up if you use on every shield besides when your ally has the 100% buff and cds
sly shore
Do you save pot for 4:30 on single pot fights with house of cards or is the gain...
Go back to your hospital bed wth
tribal blade
over under on sub getting dev notes on reset
candid gate
This may be a stupid question, but does the So Tricky talent just perma put that Tricks of the Trade visual over our head?
tribal blade
This may be a stupid question, but does the So Tricky talent just perma put that...
yes
sly shore
over under on sub getting dev notes on reset
We'll get an indirect patch note again like the trinket change
keen dome
over under on sub getting dev notes on reset
50/50
sly shore
rogue as a whole
hazy breach
Theyll fix one of the 4 things not working with the tier
keen dome
One fix a week to it.
tribal blade
Theyll fix one of the 4 things not working with the tier
i agree, the sub dev time will be fixing tier set
hazy breach
Surely 
leaden prairie
You guys should check you never know
hazy breach
I did
leaden prairie
Gg
Eleem
You know what's funny
The only rogue change that we got
With the outlaw thing
Basically got reverted with the nerf
So I think it's fair to say rogue got exactly 0 line of changes now
barren wolf
zac why are you in all spec channels bringing up hoelaw?
keen dome
Yappin'n chatting is good
cloud rover
Varas is obviously a sub
molten citrus
They fix one of the long standing outlaw bug btw
which 1
barren wolf
Why are you in sub
cause ive been here before
and sub is fun(ny)
and ive raided as sub!
leaden prairie
and ive raided as sub!
Same cuh
molten citrus
Can't restealth during subterfuge one
ah, pog
hazy breach
I also think the tier implementation for sub is funny, because its just odd why they even pretended it was implemented in the first place instead of just saying it doesnt work or NYI
hazy breach
First week especially when you couldnt even drop stacks.
still trellis
Can't restealth during subterfuge one
is that a ptr only fix? or also on live servers
(interested because of MA on assa)
remote shuttle
Idk I'm mega bored
Lol mr zac 😂 wanna go for some 12s sub+law keys?
leaden prairie
did they make it so you can restealth in dance yet
Wdym you can
still trellis
1 bugfix is all they could manage
cloud rover
Wdym you can
Wasnt that only the case with dust
sly shore
You cannot
keen dome
You can't stealth while Dance is active without cancelling the aura.
leaden prairie
Ah yes sure
But
You just have a cancel aura dance in your stealth macro
I don't see the issue here
It's not really a bug nor it's annoying
sly shore
I have stealth bound not a macro
and I know I can rebind it
and then use character specific cos it's stance bind
but it should just restealth you
grave delta
Go back to your hospital bed wth
I'm back home spamming painkillers every 3 hours for 6 weeks gonna mess up my stomach gg 
leaden prairie
I have stealth bound not a macro
Why
sly shore
I'm back home spamming painkillers every 3 hours for 6 weeks gonna mess up my st...
I just ate 3 boiled eggs
grave delta
blow up
leaden prairie
Cos that's how it's always been since the dawn of time
But you can just make a macro tho
And bind it
leaden prairie
First of all how do you not have a !stealth macro so you can spam it
sly shore
because it's on scroll wheel
leaden prairie
I mean idk its literally a you issue tho
still trellis
First of all how do you not have a !stealth macro so you can spam it
i use the default stealth button thingy, where blizzard put it by default 
sly shore
and you don't need a !stealth
keen dome
It's dumb it won't let you restealth out of combat if Dance is up. It's minor, but it's dumb that the way it's setup requires you to cancel the aura. That's just pointless, weird design by blizz.
sly shore
if you use a stance bind
leaden prairie
Oh you mean you use the stance thing
sly shore
there is an icd
leaden prairie
there is an icd
Ye but you don't have to worry about being in stealth or not if you have a !stealth bind
sly shore
It's dumb it won't let you restealth out of combat if Dance is up. It's minor, b...
It's because dance is treated as stealth so the game thinks you are already stealthed
sly shore
Ye but you don't have to worry about being in stealth or not if you have a !stea...
I don't have to anyway cos mwd is not a bind I can ever accidentally press
keen dome
It's because dance is treated as stealth so the game thinks you are already stea...
Yep. Which is a silly thing once combat drops.
leaden prairie
I didn't know you could bind the stance button ngl
sly shore
yeah exactly
keen dome
But how do you walk backwards???
sly shore
What in the jpc keybinds
leaden prairie
He doesn't because pvpers are cooked
molten citrus
I strafe and turn my camera
keen dome
But then how will you make beep beep noises and walk slowly back around the pillar to annoy the DH
molten citrus
And walking backwards is op
It’s nice to have for PvE adjustments I agree
I used to have it bound when I pved
sly shore
unbinding S is like
leaden prairie
Sometimes I wish I had the RP walk bound
sly shore
ungodly pvp pilled
leaden prairie
Cause I'm too fast on god
sly shore
bet you got strafe on Z and X too
leaden prairie
molten citrus
ungodly pvp pilled
We don’t have to make micro adjustments in positioning. Moving faster is almost always better fr
molten citrus
I only know a couple people that use binds like that
Really oldschool guys like Nahj
tribal blade
lol i'm watching a hardcore deaths compilation
and piratesoftware has become a meme
splicing him saying "what am i supposed to do" and "do you see my mana"
also how is it literally every single classic player can't even figure out how to keybind their abilities
ancient kraken
as a beginner shud i play assa or sub, i like both
ancient kraken
assa feels harder, tracking all those dots etc
hardy snow
as a beginner shud i play assa or sub, i like both
It doesn't matter if you're a beginner or not. Just pick the one you like more
ancient kraken
as sub in aoe, we generate with shuri or shadowstrike during dance?
barren wolf
assa feels harder, tracking all those dots etc
i like that the etc denotes nothing
tracking dots and?
ancient kraken
can be difficult in bigger pulls?
barren wolf
dont show him IC
lilac stag
You’re not really tracking them
barren wolf
jk
by the time mobs live your entire bleed duration(like 40 seconds), youll be decent enough
in aoe
lilac stag
somehow with all its tools, blizzard has made the dot spec, the least play like a dot spec in the game
ancient kraken
okej okej thanks for the info
lilac stag
Sub once you realize how much you actually need to track to do respectable dmg usually gives newer players migraines.
once you get used to one, likely good to learn the other. If you like both even better.
ancient kraken
Okej Cheers. Just started gearing one
lilac stag
Welcome! Both the wowhead and icyveins guides are good. Eleem has a video or two posted on his YT channel.
sage pond
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
jaunty umbra
Okej Cheers. Just started gearing one
dry plank
new players, our playerbase growth and we will get attention
unless these new players will notice new shaman lightning bolt animation and change their mind xD
worn cape
Okej Cheers. Just started gearing one
vestal relic
lilac stag
new players, our playerbase growth and we will get attention
My guess is new players in general last 3 week, maybe a month on sub. Only the ones needing heavy dosages of medication stay. 
keen dome
worn cape
Been here since late november, what does that say about me? 😂
tepid trellis
wouldnt wish that upon my worst enemy
tepid trellis
why would you?
or which ones are we talking about
the frontal or the targeted ones
cuz the targeted ones dont do shit
but you can be funny and kill people with it
keen dome
I love it.
mint swift
Again don't know if im playing assa or sub next tier
keen dome
Why not both
mint swift
or just skipping both and going to bm
they have made some lovely changes to BM
Because i can't gear them both at once, diff stat prio
keen dome
Probably doesn't make a huge difference, does it?
worn cape
cuz the targeted ones dont do shit
Targeted ones 😛
I just wonder what happens if you cloak it.
mint swift
Probably doesn't make a huge difference, does it?
I mean
Rn my assa has like 11% haste, mast and crit stacked
No vers
keen dome
I wonder what the difference in % would be. I bet it'd be less than 5%
mint swift
Meh
Also
My brain is tiny
I can't focus on two specs at once, or else ill try pressing garrote on sub XD
keen dome
valid
tepid trellis
i get too bored playing the same shit, so i swap around all the time, between sub and assa
mint swift
But yea
BM got a bunch of juicy looking changes too
Think you can change your pet class next patch but idk
Tbh i'd be happy playing a rogue, as long as it isn't outlaw
I just, idk i SUCK at outlaw
One handed mogs are sweet tho
I wonder if guild will do any mythic prog next season
We mainly just do heroic runs
keen dome
Heroic is comfy
mint swift
But for the first time in a while we did mythic prog this season which made me happy
Yes it's super easy to get 4/8 but w/e
Ye
I also got like
3 super nice parses on mythic
keen dome
Still a cool achievement, hell yeah
mint swift
Also
This semesters time looks good
Prolly better than the last one
tepid trellis
i love raiding
mint swift
i have like
tepid trellis
on progress that is
mint swift
1 day where i need to get up at 8
tepid trellis
farm raiding can suck a dick
mint swift
the other two i can lie in for a bit
But 2 of the 3 days end at like 7pm so i get home at like half eight
tepid trellis
just give me a new raid to progress every 2 months
mint swift
But only 3 days compared to 4
So i save money on travel
tepid trellis
that would be neat
mint swift
The worst nightmare ever would be if i have a uni day that makes it impossible to raid 2 days a week
Like if i have to leave at 7PM wed ill be so distraught
Because i would leave uni at the same time raid starts
keen dome
Raid from Uni.
mint swift
On my laptop?
3 fps wow
I remember specifically getting one that was cheap as i only have it for like
coding
Tbf tho, i palyed wow at like 10fps for a few years
I remember oribos would tank to 5 FPS
lilac stag
Because i can't gear them both at once, diff stat prio
It’s literally a ring and/or a neck to go from sub to assa
mint swift
It’s literally a ring and/or a neck to go from sub to assa
I have no neck
lilac stag
rocky ocean
I have no neck
you are immune to garrote then
fallow nimbus
Some 639 crit/haste neck to replace the vers/mast one
wheat crypt
fallow nimbus
Sub, but you are in the sub channel
plush roost
All 3 specs are great in the raid right now:)
vestal escarp
Sub
edgy zenith
used to hate Sin, but it's actually pretty chill after playing it for prog
brain off, dot up
haughty mural
All 3 specs are great in the raid right now:)
All 3 ? 
lilac stag
Isn’t outlaw something like tuned 20% higher
I haven’t looked to see what sims are hitting.
vestal escarp
oh yeah that has to be
lilac stag
Great spec for prog btw
vestal escarp
cause it's robot friendly
lilac stag
vestal escarp
robot respects 0.8 global and reacts at procs perfectly
lilac stag
It’s nice seeing 3 yellow lines in the dps charts
haughty mural
:3
lilac stag
:3
leaden prairie
robot respects 0.8 global and reacts at procs perfectly
I don't think that matters
Plenty of people are capable of playing outlaw "perfect"
Like any other specs
Outlaw tend to "oversim" more cause of fight designs
Favoring cooldowns
Late bosses often have lot of downtime etc
vestal escarp
the fact that it's also dummy friendly was implicit
leaden prairie
Ye
I just think the "0.8s GCD" and "react to proc perfectly"
Is rather irrelevant
But idk
vestal escarp
lilac stag
it's relevant to the old people
reacting to fury works with my soon to be arthritic hands
fury actually seems quite chill these days. idk
edgy zenith
I just think the "0.8s GCD" and "react to proc perfectly"
yeah I think ever since ER gone, Outlaw procs are very easy to react to. only part robot could beat a human at most of the time was like Ghostly Strike and ER usage during vanish
dry plank
our class looks promising next tier in M+ les gooooooo!!!!! We will pump
leaden prairie
it's relevant to the old people
sure
vestal escarp
early ptr memelists 
dry plank
i know that tier lists are trash BUT BUT
leaden prairie
our class looks promising next tier in M+ les gooooooo!!!!! We will pump
outlaw tset is also bugged
if you wanna know
dry plank
outlaw tset is also bugged
thanks for info man, my outlaw skill is bugged if you wanna know xD
sacred yarrow
our class looks promising next tier in M+ les gooooooo!!!!! We will pump
its like punching down 
lilac stag
its like punching down <:dracthyr_cry:1002454117349859328>
Perspective is important.
spark tusk
Perspective is important.
keen dome
They're gonna fix it today. I can feel it in the spaghetti.
worn ivy
Yo my focusing lens doing 30mil per key you think the flat versa is better than this ?
lilac stag
in general embellishment are near useless
void hound
Is rather irrelevant
i think its what makes outlaw difficult
lilac stag
So it likely matters not
edgy zenith
i think its what makes outlaw difficult
it's not a "reaction" thing, it's a pattern recognition thing. play Outlaw for like a week straight and it will feel like you can "react" to everything fine
it's not your reactions getting better, it's you understanding what can happen
void hound
i get what youre saying, but by definition you are reacting since the rotation is the least static
rapid kite
Do we have any idea so far as to which spec is gonna be best for S2 (M raids) ?
keen dome
no
edgy zenith
you read and reacted to my message in 2s, I PROMISE you can react to the button lighting up. trust, it's a pattern thing
no one's brain is slow enough to have trouble reacting to 0.8s
hybrid prism
blizz and pushing back maintenance. Tale as old as time
void hound
well we arent talking about the target dummy but rather in the context of an encounter
but maybe thats just me
lilac stag
There’s reaction time. People brains also work differently. How they can process the info varies.
delicate steeple
our class looks promising next tier in M+ les gooooooo!!!!! We will pump
this is good we stay bugged till launch then we just do a billion dmg like enhance did
lilac stag
except rogues will get nerfed. Enhance will continue being enhance.
sacred yarrow
its in the name
edgy zenith
There’s reaction time. People brains also work differently. How they can process...
my point is the "processing" time is the limiter, not the "reaction." your brain is struggling to figure out what to press next, not your brain reacting to the correct answer. and the processing time is fixed with better pattern recognition, not better reaction time. I have lower reaction time than most people when I do reaction speed benchmarks, but don't struggle with Outlaw reaction time at all
the more you play outlaw the better you "react" to the procs. but it's not your reaction speed getting faster. it's you understanding the patterns more
now if you play with high latency normally
I can understand the struggle
lilac stag
You do realize there are people that can’t react with a .8 second keypress no matter how much they understand fundamentals.
edgy zenith
if they have a disability maybe
but anyone under 40 with no disability, no, not really
or like 0.0001% of the population
lilac stag
ok
upper narwhal
I agree if people are bad at Outlaw they're disabled good take
edgy zenith
I agree if people are bad at Outlaw they're disabled good take
if that's what you got from that, then you're bad at outlaw
sorry, that was bm
keen dome
Human reaction time is a huge variable. You'd be really surprised at how different cognitive processing speed is depending on the indiviudal.
lilac stag
On that note. I’ll take my disabled vision out of this conversation.
keen dome
Going "Anybody can react to 0.8s" is pretty misinformed.
edgy zenith
there are outliers, obviously some people can't
upper narwhal
if people don't have F1 reaction times they're legally braindead
edgy zenith
but someone who plays Sub rogue, can react to Shadowcraft procs, and plays WoW can also react to Outlaw procs
sacred yarrow
Going "Anybody can react to 0.8s" is pretty misinformed.
Facebook Academy wants to know their location 📍
edgy zenith
anyone on this discord can react to Outlaw procs in time
I'd put money on it
genetically, everyone here can
it's a pattern recognition thing
keen dome
genetically, everyone here can
what does genetics have to do with this
edgy zenith
play Outlaw for a week straight, try it out
edgy zenith
what does genetics have to do with this
predisposition to higher reaction speed?
keen dome
what
jaunty umbra
here : https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime
don't forget to make a tierlist
sacred yarrow
why are you so insistent on this
hexed sluice
The only true way to play any class is to just mind drift with your character like its a pacific rim mech and then just rock off of pure vibes
keen dome
hell yeah
sacred yarrow
hell yeah
hybrid prism
hell yeah
lilac stag
:3
hybrid prism
5 myth pieces in the vault, 2 shit trinkets, 3 shit rings...... UGH
lament rock
Sub plays trickster so I have a way better chances asking here then outlaw dose a thousand cuts have a limit on how much it can reset
Wait sub dosent get swift slasher so
lilac stag
@leaden prairie ^ please help the outlaw enjoyer not wanting to use #outlaw as a resource
vale pine
zac hating on our tricky boys
hybrid prism
we don't like your kind here
were projecting because our arms are too small to hold a sword
lament rock
Blah we the same one dagger one sword hush
And also ima rogue I kinda show up and disappear when and were I went )
edgy zenith
I ask one question about it in outlaw channel and got shamed
Sub is the only channel that is helpful with gameplay stuff it's true
Sin channel is good too, but you'll get shamed while you get answers by whispyr
so
gotta have tough skin around here
lament rock
It the rogue discord so that excepted
alpine wraith
yea in rogue disc expect to get stabbed one way or another
astral axle
keen dome
We can't use a sword, for example.
lament rock
Nope
keen dome
So that's different.
keen igloo
I am leveling my rogue right now. So late in season, 4 weeks probably. Should I just farm gilded and craft all to 636 and ignore tierset?
lilac stag
just get 606 and make tier
lament rock
We are not the same.
Ya outlaw just above yall useing dagger and complain about sword while we just kill stuff with hiden sidearms
lilac stag
What
keen igloo
if I don't run mythic raid on this toon. I won't have myth track tier
keen dome
626 tier vs 636 all is my question
Sim it but probably worth getting tier even if it's 626.
You can catalyse non-tier Myth pieces though.
lilac stag
Subs tier is good. It’s zero effort to get if your farmed ring
Use the robot to answer your question
keen dome
If you are running high M+ for gilded anyway you may as well do a +10 weekly for stuff and then catalyse non-tier.
edgy zenith
I had to level an alt rogue for splits next tier, I just full crafted 636 in non tier slots
and pray for tier pieces in vault
think that's best
if you aren't doing mythic raid
keen igloo
I could do 4/8 pretty easily I think
wish the ptr worked so we can at least sim enough to see if we will break tier early
keen igloo
hello senpai, I mean break tier early as in for 658+ gear
vale pine
if you get the new 4p sure
edgy zenith
I doubt we would ever drop 4set without gaining the new 2set
our 4p rn is crazy strong
unless you have liek a 606 tier piece you're using to complete 4p
hazy breach
we will 100% use the new tier set if its functional
Even if it works like it does now we absolutely will use it at higher ilvl
Nerubar tier isnt that good
sick jackal
we will 100% use the new tier set if its functional
'if its functional' LOL
hazy breach
It currently isnt so 
The 2p buff doesnt work on shadowed finisher
The 15% chance procs on hit rather than on cast, and includes shadowed finisher hits, so a bp at 5 targets rolls the 15% 10 seperate times
And the shadow dmg from 4p doesnt work at all
fallow nimbus
It's intended 
go all in, everything on red, split the tens
uneven scarab
The 2p buff doesnt work on shadowed finisher
The 15% chance procs on hit rather ...
dope
lament rock
So I just remembered I never got a answer dose a thousand cuts for trickster have a cap on how many it can reset In a time frame
lament rock
Ya but this is for outlaw on a hast rogue so will have a much higher attack speed
hazy breach
It doesnt matter
hazy breach
It doesnt, nor does it for most things in the game
lament rock
That doesn’t make any sense at all
lament rock
I assumed that auto attack have a chance to reset ment if u had super fast attack speed u get more resets
How dose that not make sense e
uneven scarab
Reset what?
hazy breach
Because its not a flat percentage per hit
lament rock
Reset what?
Unseen blade
lament rock
So let me get this straight if I’m outlaw with swift slasher increase slice and dice speed from hast will not give me more procs at all or for sub it a set 4 per m
uneven scarab
the amount of haste you’d need for that to even make a difference though
hazy breach
https://gist.github.com/Dorovon/74c4fcf49ae799d92066b3266dcdcebc
Heres an indepth explanation, but the TLDR is that more hits doesnt make it proc more
Some rppm effects scale with haste, like unseen blade does. So for example if you have 25% haste it would be 4 * 1.25 = 5 average procs per minute, but the amount of hits you do does not have an impact
The vast majority of proc effects in wow that doesnt explicitly say their percentage chance in the tooltip work this way
lament rock
the amount of haste you’d need for that to even make a difference though
Outlaw in PvP gets 10 from take ur cut 10 from take them from supprise and 5 from alacrity
uneven scarab
yes ik
lament rock
But
lament rock
Propaly won’t be any good but I wanna mess around end season I got my shit so troll time
uneven scarab
like sure you can build haste like that and troll
Do whatever makes you happy
it will just be hard to notice though
lament rock
Hay I mean bright side I won’t waist my time again xd
uneven scarab
If they changed ks on trickster outlaw it would be really fun im sure
lament rock
Yep
uneven scarab
Its fun af on sub
dry plank
If they changed ks on trickster outlaw it would be really fun im sure
dw they won’t 😉
uneven scarab
Thank god am i right
open vortex
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
swift tinsel
DH trying to claim our throne
vale pine
you can make the argument for many specs
keen dome
But we can make it best right
vale pine
but we have some good arguments why it might be wise to invest time into making subtlety better overall
like... being the literally least played spec in the game
Tho we also fight with one of the biggest issue the class had in legion and bfa again
having one spec without a reason to ever swicth away from
uneven scarab
DH trying to claim our throne
Dh’s are not really forgotten tho 
void hound
if they have a disability maybe
this is peak ravenholdt right here
"hey i find the fast pace and proc based gameplay challenging"
get a super smug "well ackshually" non sense argument
and if you cant react properly you might want to check for a brain aneurysm 🙂
uneven scarab
Sure they dont get updated often but they have quite a sizeable player base
vale pine
DH was at least in DF shared with rogue and some other specs. I don't know who got the most attention, my intuition would say assassiantion. I kind of don't want to dig into the data too much because it could line out points which feel unfair.
uneven scarab
Im pretty sure assa is correct yeah
swift tinsel
DH is getting some new update to their movement gameplay in 11.1 which is basically their version of our Death Perception
vale pine
development is also harder to justify on specs which got neglected
because you need to often fix bugs before adding new things, eating in your time budget
uneven scarab
My thing is personally, classes like rogue, warrior, dh need the 6 pages of text treatment and not mage
swift tinsel
or hunters
uneven scarab
or hunters
swift tinsel
they're the new spriest
vale pine
There is also seemingly more attention to the more popular classes
swift tinsel
oh for sure
vale pine
it feels a bit like blizz wants to cater to these because it makes up a bigger part of their playerbase
swift tinsel
I mean it makes sense from a dev perspective
vale pine
could also be why subtlety saw little change since DF
uneven scarab
Sub could be more popular if it got some love 
swift tinsel
^
vale pine
I feel like the wrong lesson was learned in 10.2
because 10.2 added a shitton of complexity for the sake of it
and people actively ended up confused with how to play etc.
So the lesson learned could be "the spec if it gets a little attention gets less played"
and lead to the lower attention it is getting ever since
if everyone plays one spec, you can easier control the experience and updating it is easier to justify
this feels like the direction of TWW
uneven scarab
if everyone plays one spec, you can easier control the experience and updating i...
Yeah but like obviously this is not ideal
Sure its one of the biggest thing that sucks about playing a triple dps class
vale pine
Legion had a better balance
because individual specs ended up less overloaded
so each had clear weaknesses
vale pine
but DF and TWW added so much to everyone, that many of these deficits and diffrences dissapeared
uneven scarab
Blade flurry for all rogue specs 💀
vale pine
and the specs which ended up with remaining deficits are not standing out in a positive way
uneven scarab
Yeah definitely
vale pine
basically, if everyone can do everything. The one who can't feels bad
I still can't complain much because we are numerical good
uneven scarab
Oh i think we’re just fine
I would just like to see more than tootlip changes for rogue
Complaining just to complain tbh
vale pine
I also think wow is not in a as good spot it would want to be, the game feels a bit neglected lately
twilit phoenix
I think they’re just spread too thin
There’s so many versions of wow they’re supporting
And they’re trying to work ahead
lilac stag
DH trying to claim our throne
we are the same. #teamrealzlefttorot
twilit phoenix
Idk man
vale pine
There’s so many versions of wow they’re supporting
the classic versions don't need as much dev time
they are from a financial perspective the most successful
twilit phoenix
I mean, they’re cooking for sod
vale pine
the dev team between classic and retail is to my knowlage also not shared
twilit phoenix
the dev team between classic and retail is to my knowlage also not shared
Ah, I didn’t know that
vale pine
but maybe that changed
swift tinsel
they're still separate afaik
upper narwhal
Sub bugfixes next week
elfin hound
rogue notes in 2025 
timber epoch
guild is forcing me to play an alt (send help), thoughts on sub rogue being my alt 
sick jackal
Just dont think about thr 20 talents that dont work
sick jackal
guild is forcing me to play an alt (send help), thoughts on sub rogue being my a...
Aggresively decline them
keen dome
Next week. 
lilac stag
Ret alt. Zero thinking. Big dmg.
jaunty heath
theyre not going to make us play outlaw right
clear trail
Perma rerolling till 5 buff have fun
calm palm
hazy breach
Cant catch me playing outlaw
leaden prairie
me neither
hexed sluice
My hands are too old for outlaw
fallow glade
cant catch the outlaw because he has too much mobility
edgy zenith
if I sectech rash, does it hit the minispiders? or is it like a weird Igira hitbox thing
lilac stag
@haughty mural
ripe flame
!wa
keen igloo
What other action combat games have a rogue class ? def multiplayer group content pls
molten citrus
What other action combat games have a rogue class ? def multiplayer group conten...
FF14 has Ninja, GW2 has some sort of rogue/thief
Lost Ark has a rogue-esque class
umm
BDO has a couple rogue-esque classes
that's about all that i can think of off the top of my head
pliant topaz
akali my queeen
molten citrus
Nothin
tribal blade
sound about right 😉
short radish
What other action combat games have a rogue class ? def multiplayer group conten...
maple story also has thief
left ledge
rocky ocean
I fucking love outlaw notes
tribal blade
bloodbound
ASSHOLE
the real number
i wanna scream
oh had someone else logging who went down with me, cool
lilac stag
Woyer flex
candid mural
Next week. <:dracthyr_sip:1002333380056195112>
Don't think so... This week looks like tuning only, which means everything else is fine according to blizzard...
rocky ocean
the rational reason for not fixing stuff is probably that the bugs are too complex and the code is an unholy mess
but some communication would be nice
thick temple
no ring upgrade this week right is 658 max
hazy breach
tf is this latest 1 line of change we got
I havent checked but my guess is theyre trying to remove the animation being indefinite with so tricky
tribal blade
RED SIDE PARSING COURT LET'S GOOOO
tribal blade
I havent checked but my guess is theyre trying to remove the animation being ind...
hm so the REAL changes sub needs
got it
the mage on my raid team is complaining about mage changes in disc atm
tribal blade
AT LEAST YOU GOT A BUNCH
lilac stag
hunter not totally useless. 623. Let me know if you’re running vault keys
We hit intermission day 1
tribal blade
hunter not totally useless. 623. Let me know if you’re running vault keys
can do!
tribal blade
We hit intermission day 1
making intermission is actually quite fast, the issue is trying to get 20/20 alive through P1
lilac stag
Seemingly 1/2 the night setting up WAs again.
I think our goal is get through p1 Thursday
vale pine
We hit intermission day 1
nicuuu
tribal blade
<:Sadge:819146164288356352>
don't worry we get to see it happen a bunch more next tier 🙂
fallow nimbus
I had a good court try then some guy had a brainlag and didn't move after the grip
dry plank
it is always like that, when you have best pull ever some random guy make random shit and wipe raid
balmy thorn
Hey guys I'm trying to learn sub and I'm running into a bit of an overwhelming rotation thing. I remember having a similar thing with outlaw, however that was all proc based and conditionals. This is more of when to press certain cooldowns and when to hold them etc
What I have been trying is the following macro. Pls advise if this is terrible or if it's fine for now?
tribal blade
What I have been trying is the following macro. Pls advise if this is terrible o...
definitely don't use that
the main thing is you don't want to be casting backstab in dance
balmy thorn
I did recently add the backstab line because I saw somewhere that someone else was using that
tribal blade
yeah strike does like triple the damage of backstab
tribal blade
oh is it more? nice
balmy thorn
It was from a YTer but was for 11.05 so maybe that's why?
tribal blade
but yeah you don't want to be pressing blades with dance+symbols too
balmy thorn
His words were basically that he macros backstab into shadow dance so he gets a quick danse macabre stack
But he only had it with dance and backstab, not the others
hazy breach
Ye and thats not good
balmy thorn
Ok lol roger that
tribal blade
we did that during the first half of DF
balmy thorn
I just watched an 1 1/2hr video for nothing lmaoooo
tepid trellis
balmy thorn
Ok so if I want to macro some cooldowns together, would you be able to recommend some? I really like being able to hit 1 button for a few things if possible
dry plank
everything macro related described in wowhead guide
you can macro dance+symbols but it is also not ideal, because you need sometime delay symbols
just make comfortable bindings
dry plank
and learn the flow
balmy thorn
I tried to find where in the video he talks about it but I'm not scrubbing through the entire thing again lol. I think it's around dans macabre section
dry plank
look at rotation screen, what goes after what, and try to find binds which you hit in sequence in convenient for you way
tribal blade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVL52O1FZ08&t=5145s
damn he really only has his current target's nameplate visible
how in the hell do you rupture spread effectively if you can only see 1 nameplate in aoe
dry plank
tab man
tribal blade
yeah but you could just have all nameplates visible and see it with your eyes
also you can't see the hp of anything other than your current target
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKmBgvrgmJs @hazy breach damn he said TFD is a dead talent
maybe we're the cooked ones
vestal escarp
We Are
So Back
dry plank
we are so back
vale pine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKmBgvrgmJs <@212854714197344256> damn he said T...
dead talent confirmed ^^
(just joking tfd is good, but the time is still a big turn off)
balmy thorn
What is TFD sorry?
tribal blade
the first dance
keen dome
The First Dance
tribal blade
remain out of combat for 6 seconds and your next dance is 4 seconds longer (50% longer)
balmy thorn
Oh that seems really yuck for m+ what lmao
tribal blade
it's quite strong in M+
balmy thorn
Oh my tank chain pulls lmaooo
keen dome
It's really good in keys, and in some keys extremely good (Dawnbreaker)
tribal blade
yeah but you have dungeons where tanks literally cannot chain pull
balmy thorn
True that
hazy breach
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKmBgvrgmJs <@212854714197344256> damn he said T...
Everybody says that because they havent thought about it more than 2 seconds
tribal blade
Everybody says that because they havent thought about it more than 2 seconds <:k...
i love running TFD so much
keen dome
I like TFD because it has a noticable impact. Just shorten the time down between first dances and it's nice.
Or change it to the first dance in every encounter? but that'd probably be too strong for what they want it to be?
tribal blade
the way it currently works is not too bad
hazy breach
The most common suggestion is to make it after stealth instead, so it would proc on vanish too
And not need a janky 6s timer that doesnt even start some of the time
tribal blade
that's a good idea
keen dome
Ye. That'd be a good idea.
keen dome
the way it currently works is not too bad
alpine wraith
nah that would take precious time
off their second time reworking fire mage
or changing paladins again
or hunters
keen dome
I assume the tier set still doesn't work?
keen dome
Well the shadow part not working is at least keeping with Sub rogue's other stuff.
vale pine
Everybody says that because they havent thought about it more than 2 seconds <:k...
I think we talked about it initially even.
The problem is just how difficult it is to understand.
You have no information in front of you about just how much you proc it, and as such will always start out with "its useless"
alpine wraith
or actually i didnt try in some days maybe it got fixed but unlikely
well i mean if you make a guide it is kinda implied you actuall¡y play the spec
so to not know tfd is good
vale pine
it is a phenomena we faced a lot of times, and arguing against it is incredibly difficult even with simulations and numbers.
keen dome
All I get in my vault are Skardyn's and Harvesters Edicts. I swear blizzard, you have cursed me.
vale pine
All I get in my vault are Skardyn's and Harvesters Edicts. I swear blizzard, you...
its good on assassiantion ^^
tribal blade
i actually took hero track knife from vault this week
void hound
I think we talked about it initially even.
The problem is just how difficult it ...
its incredible how much wow builds on "x has a chance to do y"
which might not even be a real sentence cause there is literally no way to make sense of it ever
tribal blade
finally got 1
keen dome
I knooow but I've been offered it five+ times now
Give it to someone else who'd want it, Blizz!
It's the most reverse-cursed vault.
vale pine
its incredible how much wow builds on "x has a chance to do y"
which might not ...
We had even as rogues who have a very strong TC community multiple times heated arguments around something logically incorrect.
Some things i remember:
- JPC stating you never use rupture
- TTK as required to even play the spec
- Azerite Skill battles, e.g. the famous "iris vs. blood" discussion of outlaw
...
void hound
JPC was so real for this (i have no clue about the context)
tribal blade
jpc had a tendency to sometimes get rogue stuff completely wrong
one time i listened to him explaining a sub thing to max and even i with my puny mortal brain was like "hold up, that's not right"
void hound
good example of execution trumping theory
vale pine
Gaming is still a very flawed culture where credibility (e.g. high m+ score or similar) is used as a justification if the person wants to abuse the power dynamic to be correct.
We luckily have enough change in players to have new players who often are a bit more critical
void hound
Gaming is still a very flawed culture where credibility (e.g. high m+ score or s...
true
few people understand that, despite strong correlation, its not fool proof
keen dome
Gaming is still a very flawed culture where credibility (e.g. high m+ score or s...
Very true.
keen dome
I also think this Discord, for being a class discord, is far more accepting of people who are playing lower challenge content but still wanting to contribute or play to their best ability, etc.
Which is, from my perspective, really nice.
vale pine
void hound
youre selling yourself too low fuu, people do give you credibility
tulip gorge
I believe in fuu
tribal blade
Like, if it comes to credibility, people would never trust me. I am not a top r....
i see you like a coach, coaches don't need to be the absolute best at their craft in order to be good theorycrafters/teachers
vale pine
i luckily have build trust, over the years and as such am in a better position^^
tribal blade
yeah everyone in here has big trust in you 😉
void hound
i see you like a coach, coaches don't need to be the absolute best at their craf...
this
keen dome
yeah everyone in here has big trust in you 😉
Big agree
vale pine
also we build a great community ^^, eleem, armin, etc. all help out now
tribal blade
yeah i love this channel as a whole
keen dome
Everyone who contributes Sub theory is rad 'cos it helps people play better and, imo, understand the why of what we do
Anyone can look at a guide and get the how but to really play well you gotta learn the why
vale pine
you see it from streamers, they do complain more about the game than initially because they see less viewers and not that successful patches
void hound
wow has the hidden benefit of being incredibly information heavy as opposed to mechanically weighted, which can make TCer quite authoritative
in comparison to league, where nobody (rightfully) takes reddit theorycrafter seriously
vale pine
I think league has a problem of even having the Theorycrafting aspect not very advanced
void hound
cause it really doesnt matter that much
vale pine
E.g. I liked some of LS videos back when i played more actively
void hound
its an ongoing circlejerk about item builds, when in reality, the margins are so slim
vale pine
But over time and especially when watching him play/coach, you saw a lot of personal bias and some factors not considered
one example
balmy thorn
It's funny when I played dota 2 at a semi pro level (back when there weren't really any teams around in my area) the theorycrafting was very wild west
It was basically all feelycraft
alpine wraith
problem with league is being a team game even with a lot of data you cont really put information to test
because even meta changes week to week
vale pine
he rly loves to preasure lanes, and so he will always preasure the enemy and push, and many times this leads to the player just dying over and over. Instead of adopting, he flames the jungler because he did not use "the advantage" his play offered him
balmy thorn
problem with league is being a team game even with a lot of data you cont really...
That's not entirely true, it's just far more difficult especially if you are playing with randoms every game
void hound
youre spot on, LS is the premiere theorcrafting fraud in the scene
he built a career off of jerking off how bad morello is on mages, when in reality, people won worlds with it
while not an excuse for a mistake, clearly illustrates the mismatch in importance of what he is saying
vale pine
I do think there is some trueth in the above
void hound
problem with league is being a team game even with a lot of data you cont really...
true, although practice mode is now multiplayer which has a lot of interesting implications for testing
balmy thorn
He's not a fraud imo, just that it's very difficult to theorycraft in that game the same way you do in wow
void hound
he is a fraud
cause he is overselling his message
balmy thorn
There are a lot more factors that come into play other than do good macro things adn press good buttons
void hound
he will go on twitter and put out 10 posts about how renekton is a bad pick
but when pressed about why he will say "just watch my 8 hour vod dude lol"
vale pine
inherently, it is good to get attention especially if you can potentially survive ganks or even 2o1s and to get the jungler to top lane. This was good back then because there was no super good objective top lane and ganking bot lane was way more efficient because getting bot lane ahead could win you the game easy.
void hound
i feel very strongly about LS cause i was part of his community, but his self victimizing conduct really grinded my gears
balmy thorn
Not anymore tho kekw
vale pine
But, permanently forcing your jungler to play perfect or lose is just not a winning strategy
balmy thorn
Bot lane is so cursed now. I main adc and lately my support hasn't even been bothered to start the lane with me at lvl 1
vale pine
game is not about permanent agression and perfect play, but especially given the game lengh
about giving your team the option to not be permanently stressed too
vestal escarp
I alt tabbed 2 minutes and now it league talk
void hound
you should always be sceptical about someone who doesnt admit to the limits of their knowledge
LS never does this, he will give hard takes on bot lane (the position he knows the least about)
vale pine
also... expecting perfect play in soloq is kinda stupid ^^
balmy thorn
The biggest thing to understand in league (and all moba's) is that every player makes mistakes in every game they play, it's about adapting to those mistakes and minimising them, and rather optimising over when your enemy makes mistakes
vestal escarp
void hound
The biggest thing to understand in league (and all moba's) is that every player ...
yes
vale pine
I think the appeal of esports is the human factor
balmy thorn
I think that is precisely what keeps wow esports from truly picking up in the esports world
void hound
ofc, its the drama that brought leauge esports up
and subsequently is what is making it decline
vale pine
you saw it in chess, there is ai that palys better than humans. Yet the sport did not die out, quite the opposite
void hound
I think that is precisely what keeps wow esports from truly picking up in the es...
nah, wow is just a dog shit game to watch
in every shape or form
vale pine
inovation did not word it nicely, but is correct
wow is not that great to watch even in pvp
vagrant fulcrum
you saw it in chess, there is ai that palys better than humans. Yet the sport di...
tbh chess is perfectly balanced
esports aren't
void hound
tbh chess is perfectly balanced
welllllll ackshually 🤓
vale pine
chess isn't perfectly balanced, going first is OP
keen dome
Also, if it's on a wobbly table.
vagrant fulcrum
it's pretty much the best balanced game I know
balmy thorn
It's the same reason HoTS didn't really take off either. They made the game more player friendly and in an attempt to do so they removed all individual skill expression so as to make it less toxic and more team based. While that is a noble gesture, it is flawed because the reason esports is good is because of the individual champions that arise
vale pine
there are just human mistakes and some strategies that balance it out a bit more
void hound
esports aren't
that really doesnt matter tho
in fact, imbalance makes for better games
void hound
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w
back when extra credit was good 😭
void hound
It's the same reason HoTS didn't really take off either. They made the game more...
true
hots also came way too late when the market was already saturated, we see this effect with all the hero shooters that came after overwatch
vagrant fulcrum
for what it's worth I thought HOTS was cool
still trellis
hots was cool, for a... week
vagrant fulcrum
played demon hunter, came from years of league / a stint on smite
balmy thorn
Ehh that's debatable. HoTS was right in the thick of when dota was picking up and getting those massive numbers. League wasn't that big yet at that stage. The issue is that exp is shared, there is no items
vale pine
These two talks are also rly good if you want to look behind the scenses a bit in game development:
Creation of Super Mario Wounder
Creation of Hi-Fi-Rush
worn ivy
Yo any news ptr ?
balmy thorn
No items, and the inability to get a gear/level advantage and crush weaker players made the game stale and predictable very quickly
vale pine
Yo any news ptr ?
outlaw buffs, they have a pin in their channel
still trellis
Ehh that's debatable. HoTS was right in the thick of when dota was picking up an...
it was far too basic, you played a few games and felt like all the improvement is kinda over
vale pine
HoTs is kind of like Plunderstorm
void hound
Ehh that's debatable. HoTS was right in the thick of when dota was picking up an...
league was filling the big beijing stadium at that point, literally at the height of esports
it was joever
balmy thorn
it was far too basic, you played a few games and felt like all the improvement i...
Pretty much
vale pine
Plunderstorm won't get people away from Fortnite, Apex, etc.
vagrant fulcrum
I think hots had less polish than league
vale pine
But it is not a bad game, very casual friendly
balmy thorn
league was filling the big beijing stadium at that point, literally at the heigh...
One could argue that coming in at that point as a competitor from a MASSIVE well known company would be a benefit
void hound
"hey guys, nice event, but dont you want to check out hots?"
vale pine
HoTs was not sweaty enough
still trellis
I think hots had less polish than league
is hots not hot in poland or why? 🥁
balmy thorn
"hey guys, nice event, but dont you want to check out hots?"
Rising tide floats all ships my friend. At the end of the day the failure is down to blizzards lack of understanding of what makes a good esport
vale pine
the entire Moba genre was already established, and making a LoL clone in the blizzard universe had a higher potential
vagrant fulcrum
sub related question, what's our best 2nd trinket alongside transmitter
vale pine
"hey guys, nice event, but dont you want to check out hots?"
is that dota?
void hound
HoTs was not sweaty enough
they clearly tried the wow strategy, but the times have changed compared to 2004
vagrant fulcrum
have myth egg, contract myth, crystal myth track
void hound
is that dota?
league world championship
vale pine
was about to say the lol viewership is insane
void hound
Rising tide floats all ships my friend. At the end of the day the failure is dow...
Rising tide floats all ships my friend
they clearly dont, otherwise all these AAA hero shooters wouldnt get axed
concord, lawbreakers, battleborn
vale pine
i was also a bit surprised just how little viewership plunderstorm had
you need to keep in mind, all participants get a nice check just for participation
haughty mural
Bad release date I guess
still trellis
have myth egg, contract myth, crystal myth track
i would assume its egg? because crystal could also give you "bad" stats
haughty mural
Many stepped away a long time ago this season
balmy thorn
concord, lawbreakers, battleborn
That's uhh... not why those games failed lol
vale pine
so blizz spends a lot of money on the event due to production, casters and even for each one who plays in the event
haughty mural
And many are not coming back just for plunderstorm atm
vagrant fulcrum
i would assume its egg? because crystal could also give you "bad" stats
fair point
haughty mural
They are waiting for next season
void hound
That's uhh... not why those games failed lol
they werent bad games, but they couldnt convince in an oversaturated market
because the tide does not in fact, raise all boats is what im saying
vagrant fulcrum
don't see many logs using it though
void hound
hots wasnt a bad game either
still trellis
don't see many logs using it though
just a sim angle in that case, thats what i always did
alpine wraith
egg is good problem is not that many people have killed ovi nax M and looted it
void hound
its a fundamental misunderstanding
gamers in the multiplayer realm invest a lot of time in a single game and its hard to make the switch
vale pine
And many are not coming back just for plunderstorm atm
My friends list had many people come back for plunder
keen dome
I liked HotS because it was accessible.
haughty mural
So I guess there would be more people playing plunderstorm if the season would be more alive in general
still trellis
i already dont like battle royales, and plunderstorm was even more boring than a regular br (like fortnite or apex)
vale pine
its a fundamental misunderstanding
gamers in the multiplayer realm invest a lot ...
Hots had a high potential if it was more legue/dota like because people love the universe blizz created
haughty mural
My friends list had many people come back for plunder
Mine did not .. that’s why I guessed
They were like „plunderstorm would be cool and all but nah cba I’m coming back next season“
void hound
Hots had a high potential if it was more legue/dota like because people love the...
maybe
i dont think their initial strategy was bad, its what made wow a huge success
vale pine
it sounds weird, but the value is quite high
balmy thorn
I think a large problem is that blizzard is kinda salty that their game had a mod that spawned not one, but two of the highest grossing esports games in the world and they got nothing for it. They have since been trying to force lightning to strike and I don't think that's really how it works
vagrant fulcrum
egg is good problem is not that many people have killed ovi nax M and looted it
that's fair, it's probably rarer than contract for slower guilds, I hear guilds kill kyveza before ovi in some cases now
vale pine
it is also why you don't see other mmo's succeed
void hound
I think a large problem is that blizzard is kinda salty that their game had a mo...
that is very true
vagrant fulcrum
it is also why you don't see other mmo's succeed
you don't understand how badly im waiting for something to come and replace this current generation of MMOs
vale pine
I mean, realistically there is already
keen dome
I wonder if that'll ever happen?
vale pine
the entire anime fanbase market with genshin and similar
still trellis
you don't understand how badly im waiting for something to come and replace this...
surely the league mmo is gonna do it in 20 years
keen dome
MMO's are such a relic and everything has shifted to GaaS / live service (I.e., Destiny 2 calls itself an MMO but it's quite different)
balmy thorn
Honestly true. I love wow, but I just want something that gives me the feeling of wow, but plays like it's been made in the last 5 years lol
vale pine
also arpg's start to replace mmo's for many
haughty mural
But it’s anime 
keen dome
also arpg's start to replace mmo's for many
ye, this too
void hound
you wont like the next gen of mmos, cause they will be gacha ridden MTX fests lol
literally nobody will make a wow 2.0
not even blizzard
vale pine
i talked about this just yesterday with a friend
i played a fair bit of a auto battler lately
keen dome
I don't think we'll get any new MMO's ever. I think they're a dead market.
balmy thorn
I don't think that's limited to mmos. Any new live service game is doomed for those outcomes
random comet
i don't think the market is dead, i think the development cost is too high given the low chance of success
balmy thorn
Precisely^
keen dome
That's the same thing, though.
void hound
i don't think the market is dead, i think the development cost is too high given...
pretty much, which is why any new mmo will either be shti quality (new world) or completely filled with mictrotransactions and gacha
or both
random comet
well the market is alive, and it plays wow and ff14
keen dome
If development cost is too high to take a risk to develop anything to have a success: it's a dead market. The only thing living are those monoliths that existed for a long time and have the majoriy of potential players.
random comet
the new market is probably dead
vale pine
and i came to the realization that its probably not a genre for me.
These games don't give you a chance to win but only a chance to shift the probabilities in your favor.
They basically exploit the player with gambler's fallacy, and add even more gambling systems on top (card packs or gatcha)
keen dome
the *new* market is probably dead
yeah that's actually a better way to phrase it, good point
alpine wraith
people really like going inside a game and exiting if they want
in like 15 mins to 30
wow is just not it
for almost everyone
balmy thorn
The market is honestly foaming at the mouth for it, but unfortunately you are talking about starting a game that will take a MINIMUM of 5 years full dev time of 150+ devs. All for it to maybe flop and not be the killer of (insert best mmo here)
void hound
and i came to the realization that its probably not a genre for me.
These games ...
i completely agree, i wish lawmaker would outlaw those practices
keen dome
i completely agree, i wish lawmaker would outlaw those practices
Baltaro getting a gambling slap while FIFA gatcha gets nothing lmao
alpine wraith
yea they have teams of psychologists and casino people working on gamba
for games now
it is really joever for the poor kids
balmy thorn
and it isn't looking good
Yup, turns out money indeed makes the world go round lol
alpine wraith
i mean it is the same with almost any tech and porn
keen dome
Haha
keen dome
Capitalism, let's goooo
void hound
im actually becoming a bit boomer pilled about gaming
they became these super efficient dopamine machines with included gambling frying your brain
balmy thorn
yea they have teams of psychologists and casino people working on gamba
That has been happenning for longer than you know already lol
alpine wraith
so that is why blizz pls put skill MTX
i want my evis to explode in rainbows and pink cats
keen dome
Noooo
vale pine
It isn't about money, but about sucessively adding more gambling mechanics to games or design games around them.
It leads to the problem of getting children into gambling already, and the mentioned gambler's fallacy is one of the main factors people keep playing.