subtlety

[sick jackal]

@pliant topaz huge gz on the masters btw

[lilac stag]

You have to select the folder and change the load condition to sub or assa only

[stone robin]

okay somehow this breaks my assa weakaura completely xD

[fathom adder]

do i understand it correctly that aside from the opener and the upcoming sb/flag windows where i use 2 symbols and 2 dances, there is only enough cd reduction on dance to use one symbol + dance + sectec inbetween cd windows?

[hazy breach]

Most of the time yes

[fathom adder]

thank you

when i got 1 symbol and sectec comes off cd but i have so SD charge, do i just use symbols and send sectec anyway, are there situations like that? or is that just misplay and will never occure if i am playing correctly

[rocky ocean]

in M+ there is a lot of improvisation

[hollow spear]

You will sometimes use symbols + sectec without dance

Sometimes you'll even only sectec

You will eventually get a feeling for when to use what, that usually comes with experience

Hachadino has a spreadsheet to give you an idea: https://bit.ly/Dinosheet

[vale pine]

both, you hold for flagellation if you have no or low stacks

[worn ivy]

Yo bois can someone help with WA ? I need wa when the sham drops a tremor i need to see it and i need to see if im in range is that possible ?

[fathom adder]

whats the effective cd of Sectec ? i am unsure when to use symbol and sectec before my big cd double dance double symbole, i sat on it for like 30 seconds but i am not sure yet

[swift tinsel]

Might be worth popping into the WeakAura discord for that one

https://discord.gg/weakauras

Since it’ll likely be a bit more complex to make, or they might have one

[lilac stag]

You can also just turn totem nameplates on and likely solve it through plater

[swift tinsel]

The range part might be more of an issue bc blizz does not like range/nameplate interactions in instances

And intentionally brick them

[lilac stag]

Also just tell you shaman not to be a shit.

It’s getting dropped in range of tank.

At least with player you should be able to increase its size or color to see it

[keen dome]

There's no way to send valorstones between characters, right? I didn't suddenly forget about a nice bit of QoL?

[paper siren]

Am I coping if I hope there is Sub buffs soon?

[hazy breach]

Yes, sub is already good

[paper siren]

But what if(hear me out) it was better

[hazy breach]

I mean ye sure

[swift tinsel]

Player friendly nameplates in Plater are blocked in instances too, just default bars show

[hazy breach]

But why would they buff a spec thats already strong

Instead of another weak spec

[paper siren]

If its not my spec it shouldnt get buffed XD

:)

[jaunty umbra]

no thanks don't want fotm here

[plush roost]

Bugfixing sub would be better

Ds mark bugs, replicating shadows

I long for my combo points to be refunded correctly at 7 stacks

[old venture]

Because you play sub and you’re cute

Rebut that argument sir

[hazy breach]

Unfortunately ive been playing mostly assa lately

Fotm rerolling for the push

[lilac stag]

I thought there was a work around for totems/pets

[swift tinsel]

There might be, I haven’t messed around with totem/pet plates just friendly

[paper siren]

Not the fotm push :(

[swift tinsel]

I just know blizz doesn’t like custom nameplate stuff and actively work to make sure those kinds of things don’t work

[hazy breach]

Im probably not gonna play much more keys though, my aug friend is not enjoying playing aug and is mostly doing it for the title

Unfort

[paper siren]

Felt that, almost hit 3k io on sub but my team got burnt out

and i dont really like assassination

[sick jackal]

Pugged to 3k as sub and spent more time in dornogal than in keys

I yearn for a team

Might pull a armin and goto league ngl

[vale pine]

think they rly should add soloq

pugging takes too long

[sick jackal]

We did that mistake with pvp god no

İmagine going into a key getting 2 rets with you and 1 leaves cuz of the comp

Ill happly stand the dornogal

[vale pine]

i think it could work, you would still play in a group for the extreme high keys or if you want to do a quick one with guild

[sick jackal]

I dont think the issue is with blizz here tbh the player base is stupidly elitist

people dont understand the fact that you dont need 5 fotm specs to time a 12

[vale pine]

the current implementaiton is worse

i had the discussion about soloq a few times

[sick jackal]

Best fix would be to have spec synergy between specs to put them into comps

[vale pine]

i think there is no flawless solution, but i don't see the problems with a simpler queuing system which also gives blizz incentive to balance mythic+ a bit better

[sick jackal]

The balance issue is just about dev time imo

Which will probs lower the waiting times

But soloq makes comps and stuff matter even if your game is balanced

Most of the player base plays fotm at least in m+ so lets say your a ret pala in soloq your more likely to queue into another pala than another class

[vale pine]

you talk about problems which i think should be adressed at the baseline

let me give you some examples

if dh is so strong it outpaces every other tank in the game by so much that playing anything else is useless

then it isn't a problem of soloq

or diffrent example

if there are too many dispells in dungeon design

and mass dispell makes the dungeons again by a huge margin easier

its also not a soloq design

[sick jackal]

Yes but if dh is 0.2% ahead of the next tank a lot of people will play dh meaning we feed a lot of dhs in to the queue

Becouse the lower player base thinks its impossible to time keys with non fotm specs

[vale pine]

i don't see how having more tanks in the pool on the strong tank specs will be a problem?

[sick jackal]

Tank was a bad example mb lets say ret paladins imagine rets doing 0.2 more than an assa rogue the soloq will be full of rets than people leave groups/cry becouse they got a bad comp

[vale pine]

the entire point of a soloq system is to not be able to select the best comps every time but rather to optimize for your keys success chance

[sick jackal]

But wow as a game design has specs that cant do things

So for a soloq system that has to go away

And we have the game having low heal and tanks issue

[vale pine]

thats a desin problem, if you need one specific spec out of all to make your game noticable easier, then there is a problem in your approach

[sick jackal]

Fixing the issue kills the class identity

[vale pine]

not rly

no class fantasy is "being so op that you are required in every dungeon over every other spec in the game"

[sick jackal]

I am not saying being op as a identity imagine every spec has a 15 sec interrupt

[vale pine]

i am not following then

[sick jackal]

Cuz if i am not playing assa with iron wire in a group of a heal priest 2 boomies interrupting dungeons will be really hard

[vale pine]

i mean

if iron wire is too good it isn't a core spell of assassiantion

can just rework it to something else or remove it

e.g. subtlety was supposed to get a aoe stun

which was then removed, because it was too good in their opinion

[sick jackal]

I mean to say the thing that makes a key hard isnt just needing a lot of damage its interrupting having good burst windows and if every class can do everything it kills class identity

[vale pine]

or subtlety lost funnel damage for the same reason

[hazy breach]

It probably wouldve been too good tbf

[vale pine]

nothing is married to a spec, things can be changed if they are too good

[hazy breach]

We get a longer kidney instead, but i wish it also ignored diminishing returns on stuns

[sick jackal]

İron wire was a example

[sick jackal]

I wish they didnt make it 30 secs so i can play pvp

[hazy breach]

Speed shroud is nice

[vale pine]

speed shroud is way more niche

[hazy breach]

Rogue in general feels like it just needs something extra to bring to a group now that every single mob has truesight

[vale pine]

than iron wire

and i think niches like this are nice to have, talents which are not always good bring choice

[hazy breach]

Like atrophic and numbing being a choice node feels redundant to me, either bake it all into a single poison or have them not be on a choice node

[sick jackal]

I kinda like it being a choice node that node feels like the only choice i have

"do i want slower casts or physical dmg reduction"

Rest of the talent trees is just a illusion of choice

[vale pine]

i think its okay of a choice node, but atrophic is most of the time just better

[hazy breach]

Well its 99.99% atrophic

[sick jackal]

Then we gotta either nerf atrophic or buff numbing

[hazy breach]

Besides, for sub it would still be a choice

Even if you could have both talented

Since you cant have 2 poisons on at the same time

[sick jackal]

I personally play numbing in interruptful dung cuz i pug and we dont have synergy in keys

[sick jackal]

Atropic can be placed so bad that you might just never pick it tho

And looking at the tree rn i dont trust blizz with trees

I would prefer mop choice nodes

[hazy breach]

What

The class tree is fine, theres no nodes you cant pick

[sick jackal]

Can i play tea?

[hazy breach]

Ofc you can

[sick jackal]

How big a lose is tea btw

[hazy breach]

Not that big

[sick jackal]

We replace cb?

[hazy breach]

Ye CB is not great either

[sick jackal]

Thats good to hear time to play tea

I hate cb

[round latch]

shadowcraft and rotten are the biggest aight?

as in important

[hazy breach]

Dark shadow and danse macabre

If youre talking spec tree

[round latch]

across both

[hazy breach]

Well

[round latch]

i dont discriminate but cool

[hazy breach]

Shadow blades

Secret technique

And flagellation

[round latch]

final ones 😄

u trollin me okok

[sick jackal]

They are other than flag too above the tree to be an issue

But goremaws combatting rotten shadowcraft macabre is just a meme at this point

At the last row

[round latch]

goremaw is like 1% behind the other nodes iirc

(final ones)

but there is also the cringe path taken into consideration

[sick jackal]

Can you send me the goremaws tree

After finals ima get goremaws tea to 3k with pugs and be the offical villian

[round latch]

ye u basicly replace db

on DS

[sick jackal]

I might not be ready for that self harm

[round latch]

ik its mostly a pvp thing

and even there

goremaw doesnt rly see play

[vale pine]

i wouldn't mind a rework of goremaws

[round latch]

yup same

but make it like another sectech

throwing all ur stored cps into one big exhale

lets go full nuclear

[keen dome]

Put goremaws in the class tree. Let chaos reign.

[round latch]

thats not that bad an idea tbh

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[sick jackal]

Put goremaw into fury warrior spec tree let the randomiser in

[keen dome]

lmao

Do it.

[worn ivy]

@vale pine what is he saying bro

Need a translator for this 😂😂😂

[vale pine]

what exactly is the question?

i am confused too

[worn ivy]

Asked for a wa

For example mist 1 st boss your sham has tremor right

When he press it i want a wa

To see sham pressed tremor

So i can commit instead of position myself

Its easy waht i asked

Also wanna see if im in range totem

He said you cannot see the range i said ok

So without range and he send this

But i dont know how to do it

Or for example demolishers in siege

They have fear

[vale pine]

the bot command just shows how to configure a range check

oh wait i mean a cast

it basically looks for the combat log event "cast success" from the shaman

[worn ivy]

Ahh i see

[vale pine]

or well the example is for the player as target

you need to change that to not look for your events only

[spark tusk]

Spaten is always extremely terse

He’s basically saying what was said earlier. It is not possible to track if you are in range or anything to do with positioning

And to track that it happened you need to look at the cast success trigger with tremor as the spell

Honestly you may not need to check for owner of the spell

Or the caster

In pvp this shortcut would break but in raid or pve if there’s only one unit that can cast tremor (the shaman in your raid group) you can skip checking for caster

[worn ivy]

So as i rogue can i track shamans tremor when its used

[vale pine]

yes

[spark tusk]

Yes, the combat log events as shown in the bot command

[worn ivy]

The problem is i dont know how to create this wa

Also how come no one creates this wa before

Its useful ad

Af

Most people play on voice and says tremor fot this but in pugs

[round latch]

isnt it possible through omnicd

[worn ivy]

It is possible but i cannot have attention there

I cannot look party cds while dealing with kicks

Rotation and stuff

[round latch]

hold lemme ask something,coz i know there is a wa announcer for arena

yapps ''tremor''

[worn ivy]

Yeppp

“Tremor Down”

[round latch]

https://wago.io/40kfpRKho

why would it be a msg though i dont get it

😂

u should be able to add a condition for a sound or something

cant load it now,aint logged on

[worn ivy]

🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

[round latch]

maybe our WA Kungfu master @spark tusk can cook it

[worn ivy]

Thank you brothwr ez thats what i wanted

[round latch]

u r welcome fam

[worn ivy]

But are we sure this isnot enemy tremor right ?

[round latch]

[worn ivy]

I wanna track friendly tremor

:))

[round latch]

yup ik

should track all tremors

definitely can add conditions

[vestal escarp]

hello, dev notes where?

nothing? unforch see you tomorrow bye bye

[dry plank]

If you are waiting for changes see you next expansion xD

[round latch]

can testify,RS bug working properly

🤣

[vale pine]

nice

[sick jackal]

Might be the best play tbh

[pliant topaz]

bro pretending like rogue got changes in tww alpha + beta

smh

[dry plank]

Im optimist like you xD

also I like how you describe current retail state as beta, Im with you brother

[pliant topaz]

no i meant litearlly tww alpha and beta

where rogue changes

[alpine wraith]

we had carrots at least

[keen dome]

[vale pine]

[tulip gorge]

Didn’t they remove shadowdust in tww

Also they removed shadow dance from class tree and added the double vanish talent

Assa rogue didn’t become a meta spec all of a sudden either

[alpine wraith]

they removed dust in s1 after some months

so no we actually only got lght changes in alpha and beta

apart from buffing deathstalker 9 times

[tulip gorge]

Oh yeah it was in 11.0.5

[lilac stag]

if you don’t recognize the name, you just assume they’re new and enjoy the blissful ignorance. Makes life better.

[tulip gorge]

I hope in 11.1 they increase the cdr of shadow dance

[tepid trellis]

based

[alpine wraith]

i have 0 hope for any changes in 11.1

but if they come it would be cool to at least get some bug fixes

[lilac stag]

12.0. Sub changed to Gunslinger.

why else would you basically ignore a spec. No other possible reason.

[vestal escarp]

just cull the pvp spec

[lilac stag]

Rebrand the few good thing to some gunslinger flair and just make it a mid ranged rogue spec.

It been cursed since legion. Bury it.

[vestal escarp]

they kill sub, im free from this game

[keen dome]

Will we get a cool gunkata move

[lilac stag]

I love sub but man I’m want off the rollercoaster of lack of any solid attention visually, or game play wise.

[tidal python]

What do you mean

You can literally summon shadow clones to dance with you

[lilac stag]

you think you can, but you can’t.

[uneven scarab]

The ones that appear for .5 seconds and have like 5% visual transparency?

[tidal python]

It was a joke

[uneven scarab]

I think all of us would like some actual visuals but

Such is the curse of being a rogue

[tidal python]

Imo sub could look a lot like kyveza

Just make it the official void spec and be done with it

[uneven scarab]

Yeah if only

[tidal python]

[uneven scarab]

they have this whole shadow theme

And the best we get is hey u glow purple during dance

[tidal python]

They didn't know what they wanted to do with this spec, it started as "we are the masters of stealth and we strike from the shadows" to "we literally master shadow fuckery to empower ourselves with void magic"

But they didn't really go all the way either so now we're in this weird middle ground that's neither

[uneven scarab]

I think someone had a good point the other day but

Sub used to be about using hard hitting stealth abilities, and now its just about stacking 10 different damage amps all at once

[tidal python]

Yeah

I miss when dancing was a big deal because it allowed you to use stealth abilities out of stealth

Now ambush (and shadowstrike by extent) is meaningless

[uneven scarab]

i do miss those huge ambushes

during dance

I mean strike hits like a truck in dance and thats fun and all

[tidal python]

I wouldn't mind having sub be about maintaining find weakness and stealth/subterfuge/dance up to maximise damage

Now it's just "do the secret tech combo during dance to nuke the target"

[uneven scarab]

It would be cool if fw was more than just an entirely passive effect you ignore

[tidal python]

I liked it more when you had to ambush to get it

Made sense conceptually

[keen dome]

Consuming Find Weakness to Exploit it and do a BIG CRIT or something. Or just not 'cos it's more plate juggling.

but the big crit is a fun feeling

[uneven scarab]

Now we are talking

Maybe a give a dmg amp on the ability that consumes it

big sectechs

[keen dome]

It's probably a bad idea but I thought about it like this: You do something to put Find Weakness on an enemy. And then something like SecTec consumes it to do something else. Or another ability? You could even retool backstab this way like...

You Dance which places Find Weakness on the enemy, and then after 3 stack sof it, you can consume them all with a Backstab that's a guranteed mega crit ro something. Replace BS with gloomblade baseline.

[uneven scarab]

ooh

Yeah fuck gloomblade anyways

[keen dome]

So you've got your typical routine dances, and eventually build to a super big crit during it. But you have control over when you consume it.

[uneven scarab]

fuck having to talent that

[keen dome]

purple backstab should just be baseline

[uneven scarab]

Yeah agreed

I really just want more fw/backstab interactions

Backstab feels the same as it did 6 years ago

10 years ago

[keen dome]

Alternatively you just have it be a Dance / SecTec interaction.

[uneven scarab]

Even

[keen dome]

Just build more into the setup and execute dynamic of burst damage.

[keen dome]

Another thing they could do which I think would be cool is: delete backstab from pve, make it a pvp talent where it goes back to being a really really powerful damage ability

[uneven scarab]

Dude yes

[keen dome]

Keep it as an iconic, thematic button for PvP but get rid of it in PvE even though the alternative is purple backstab but at least gloomblade is more interesting and thematic

[uneven scarab]

Like actually having to position for it and the reward was amazing

It hit so hard

[keen dome]

And does shadow damage so it'll get amp'd by shit

[jaunty umbra]

sub will get a good rework in midnight (it won't)

[keen dome]

Sub becomes Shadowguard the most confusing tankspec in WoW: it tanks via shadow clones

[uneven scarab]

midnight=darkness=shadows=sub rogue rework

It makes perfect sense

[jaunty umbra]

ikr

[vale pine]

but sub does not need a rework

[tidal python]

fwiw I think it plays mostly fine now

At least if you play trickster

Getting a freeish blade flurry passive also made aoeing as sub way more fun

[uneven scarab]

I dont think it needs a rework

I just think it needs more flavor

[jaunty umbra]

i meant more like a revamp

visuals and stuff

[spark tusk]

Will those shadow clones be counted on logs?

[keen dome]

Each one is it's own entry.

Every raid will now contain two hundred 'people'

[lilac stag]

@spark tusk how’s crafting going?

[spark tusk]

in general? Ok

some crafts have turned profits around a tad

[hexed sluice]

Manifesting a 4th spec as tank for rogue

[spark tusk]

still slow going and I'm mostly salvaging still

I spent a day preparing 1.4M in gemcut mats and then the prices dropped and now all the crafts are in the red

so now I'm sitting on a ton of stuff but we'll see if it turns around, if not I'll just sell the mats

oh right dmf started

[lilac stag]

Yeah everything kinda all over it seems

I can’t make head or tails of it

[tidal python]

Is the void elf racial change really a nerf for sub? Was thinking of race changing mine

[alpine wraith]

rn it is broken and does not work with secret

so well

[tidal python]

Oh

[hazy breach]

Ye changing it from always being up in the opener

Instead of being 60s ICD its now 1 rppm, so it doesnt always proc exactly every 60s but on average once a minute

[teal prawn]

@wind canopy my first completed sub key

[wind canopy]

[teal prawn]

(it was an 8)

[wind canopy]

[teal prawn]

It was fun, hope youre enjoying these pings

[wind canopy]

I hate you

I’m like Joe and you’re Jaylen when they interview Joe

[quaint lodge]

Can somebody explain where the hell it says the coup de grace just send you to ur target

like is this even written in the ability

[wind canopy]

It’s not mentioned.

[quaint lodge]

this is ? aggravating?

[molten citrus]

[quaint lodge]

like what even is the point of this

[wind canopy]

Ask Blizzard

[gritty knot]

Sounds like straight from "Solo Leveling". Can u give those clones specific names too and appoint a clone "commander"? I will name it Igris then to command my clone tank armies

https://tenor.com/view/igris-sung-jin-woo-combo-beat-down-angry-gif-3316363774451794317

[edgy zenith]

void elf racial isn't working at all currently

log from last Thursday as Void Elf

[alpine wraith]

unlucky

price of being blue

[edgy zenith]

yep

[twilit phoenix]

why does DS ST run gloom

and trickster doesn't

[alpine wraith]

lingering darkness

it buffs shadow damage

[twilit phoenix]

that makes sense

ty gamer

[lilac stag]

Check details. On ptr it was working late, but I don’t think wcl was picking it up.

[edgy zenith]

let me check, but I think it was also not showing up in damage

just showing the buff

like the buff has uptime

but no damage from it

[lilac stag]

Possible. Early on neither showed.

I reported it on ptr a few times.

[edgy zenith]

here is a key

normal proc rate

but no damage on details

same with logs

just not working rn

[lilac stag]

yup

[edgy zenith]

I mentioned this when patch came out, finna get a 2% dam increrase going from Void Elf to Orc

ez clap

[lilac stag]

The teleport is fun more at at least.

[edgy zenith]

haven't pressed that racial once all tier lmao

[lilac stag]

Not sure how. It wasn’t showing in simc since it wasn’t working in spell data unless now it’s just assuming the buff.

[edgy zenith]

it's more like 1%

but still

more damage than I can get from any piece of gear at this point lmao

[lilac stag]

Is it showing the dmg in simc report?

[edgy zenith]

nope

showing buff uptime though, just like logs and details

[lilac stag]

So unless it’s just the buff now there’s no way it’s higher than orc

I gave up on it.

sick of buggy shit

[edgy zenith]

nono, it's worse than orc

by liek 1%

bc it's not working

but 1% for a racial is like top tier racial to worst racial

so p big

like no singular item gives me 10k DPS

but swapping racials does

kinda nuts

[lilac stag]

It’s basically a mythic track upgrade

[twilit phoenix]

how much rupture spreading are you guys doing in big pulls

[alpine wraith]

just be human and get more mastery stonks

believe

[swift tinsel]

I usually throw out a few as the tank is gathering

At least to get them on bigger mobs

Let RS spread to whoever else

[round latch]

i dont like sacbrood trinket

[lilac stag]

You mean Mag’har

[sick jackal]

I am doing queen prog should i cloak the first root or vanish it?

[alpine wraith]

i didnt do either it just got killed by aoe

but you vanish it if there is no dmg

[sick jackal]

Thats why my guild is making people immune

[rough rivet]

hey, currently playing a bit more of sub in keys - is there a number of targets where we start using bp even with flawless up (should be 5+ right? -> flurry does hit 7 tho). not sure if i understand the guides correctly, thats why im asking

[vale pine]

5+ targets

[rough rivet]

ty

[tulip gorge]

if there is a prio target you should still stick to flurry instead

[lilac stag]

You’re BPing if you have find weakness up on everything

Otherwise just Evis.

The prio with evis is fine

[worn ivy]

You use 2nd rotten stack to spread fw with storm

But i still dont understand how t f envenom does more damage than evis

Even with 2x finality you dont see big numbers

Hope next season tier set will fix it

[hazy breach]

It doesnt during cds

Eviscerate is just split up into multiple hits

[worn ivy]

You mean shadow part and

Coup part ?

[hazy breach]

Phys part, shadow part, shadow blades

And coup is 3x that

[worn ivy]

For example for some bosses in dungeons evis was broken

On damage taken phase

Like siege 1st boss afrer bomb

[hazy breach]

What

[worn ivy]

Or mist 1st boss

Not right now

Back in days

Yoy played bfa sub ?

Or sl sub ?

Right now sub does not feeel right

Thats what im trying to say

[plush roost]

Idk sub feels okay to me

Only thing it needs is bugfixes really

And maybe some way to get sec tec and dance cdr on deathstalker

[worn ivy]

What kind of bugs holding sub back rn ?

[keen dome]

I don't think BfA sub was better than current Sub, though

[worn ivy]

Than your trolling @keen dome

Do u remember shuriken combo ?

[plush roost]

Not holding it back, just annoying stuff

[warm goblet]

shuriken combo got insta removed in Bfa

[keen dome]

Yes the thing that was removed within the first tier.

[plush roost]

Sub is in a good spot it doesn't need buffs

[warm goblet]

after the spec was legit doomed

[keen dome]

And then Sub was fucked for the rest of the expansion.

[worn ivy]

Yes reason was zul fight

[keen dome]

So BfA Sub was objectively worse than it is right now, haha

[plush roost]

More like, they couldn't design add encounters with this talent existing

Imagine ovinax with shuriken combo

[warm goblet]

high mastery sub was okay ish to play towards the end of BFA but before that, shadowstrike was more or less what dealt damage

[keen dome]

Also Sub at the start of SL was pretty dire, too, in my experience. I'm not sure how it was in S2 / 3 as I'd quit, but I heard it got a lot better. Current SUb has a ton of issues great and small but I really like it.

[worn ivy]

In mdi we were pulling mobs into every boss to abuse

Esp in legion

[plush roost]

Yeah it was a bad idea to put into the game tbh

[keen dome]

I miss it, but I think so too.

[plush roost]

Powder isnt a great solution but combo couldn't exist

[worn ivy]

The best change is sech tech

Before it wasnt reducing cd

On finishers

We had really bad azerite
Powers in bfa

You had to nightblade before every dance

Nightblade was good idea

I still prefer it over rupture

Rupture should never be in sub tree

[plush roost]

I mean rupture has been a part of sub for a long time

They just added nightblade in legion

[worn ivy]

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=195452/nightblade

But it makes sense to deal shadoe damage instead of bleed

[lilac stag]

Welcome to 11.x

[plush roost]

I mean what would you change about it?

[worn ivy]

Whats the reason having bleed damage on sub like

[lilac stag]

almost like zero attention was given to the spec

[worn ivy]

No point

[lilac stag]

Get rid of cdr, blend blades into dance. Make flag 2 charges.

[worn ivy]

This tbh

[hollow spear]

You'd have to nerf Flag significantly to make that happen, no?

[lilac stag]

adjust it sure

[leaden prairie]

Add cdrr on sod

[lilac stag]

People like charges. Delete all the fucking cdr

Go play outlaw

If you want cdr

[leaden prairie]

Outlaw surely is getting 2 charges of ADR before you guys get 2 charge of blades

[lilac stag]

delete blades

I said 2x flag

[plush roost]

And what? Put more damage into the class outside of dance?

[worn ivy]

I tried all 3 specs in m+ and i play then really good level. I can say all for all this effort on outlaw the damage it does is fucking omegalow

[lilac stag]

sub ain’t gonna feel great once we lose tier.

[worn ivy]

Too much efort low damage = outlaw
Decent prio still low dagame = subtlety
Does everything better then other 2 specs with z effort = assa

[lilac stag]

ayup

[worn ivy]

15 years rogue experience 🙂

[lilac stag]

almost like 1/3 got attention and fleshed out

[worn ivy]

But i believe outlaw will get better next season

Remove t cap

And gucci

[lilac stag]

Is it going to stop aggravating my arthritis?

[worn ivy]

Prob not 🙂

You need to have korean apm to play outlaw rn

With all this effort

I was checking overall

I was like wtf

Im playing picture perfect

Hows this damage so low

[lilac stag]

I watched someone’s outlaw play on silken court. It’s hilarious how much key smashing is picked up on the mic

but whatever floats your boat

[worn ivy]

Not onlt wf raider they should hire some m+ players for class balancing tbh

After everyone done with their progress

You have only 1 content holding the players

Pve wise

[keen dome]

Not really, there's a lot of content in WoW for different kinds of players. It's a minority who actually engage with high-end stuff. But I want to see improvements too.

[worn ivy]

Just hire @vale pine blizz

But who knows maybe his one of them

[lilac stag]

Can’t hire the one person that is always happy with minimal changes.

need the good pr in class discord.

[leaden prairie]

You aren't lol

No offense

[cloud perch]

is there a way to go full magic dmg ?`with darkbrew gloom blade and stuff ? since FW is the opposite of magic dmg ?

thanks for reacting i would love to have explanations why

[vale pine]

haha

[keen dome]

Because Shadowstrike will always do physical damage, I guess. No way to convert everything we do to Shadow or Magic.

Would be cool, though.

[cloud perch]

i see mhm i am totally into the magic melee mesmer style

[keen dome]

Ye. I like the idea of Sub going more into Shadow dam. Shadowstrike should be Shadow but, unless I'm forgetting, it's been Physical since.. I wanna say BfA?

[fallow nimbus]

Since legion

[keen dome]

Geez, so long.

[fallow nimbus]

https://tenor.com/view/always-has-been-among-us-astronaut-space-betrayal-gif-23836476

[cloud perch]

thats so sad

[keen dome]

Someday gloomblade will be baseline...

[rocky ocean]

Gloom shroom blade

[sick jackal]

fuu sus ngl he might be the impostor

[keen dome]

Nah, Fuu has good ideas like rolling Shadowblades into dance.

[plush roost]

With 1:30 flag?

That sounds kinda cursed, unless its 45 sec dance

Unless u mean roll blades into dance with dance still having cdr

Thats kinda nuts

[keen dome]

Probably, yeah

Like the way I'd see it is you roll the Shadowdam + combie gen into dance

And then Flag is our main burst cooldown

I've put no real thought into this and most of the discussion around the idea was pre-11.0.5 iirc but still

It was an idea Fuu suggested ages ago that I think is cool

[lilac stag]

There’s not one individual change that will make sub good all of the sudden, or they would have done it. It’s going to take multiple adjustments and some actual attention vs (BP) bandaids.

[keen dome]

Absolutely

It needs to be a lot more cohesive overall.

[lilac stag]

it crack me up when people go well that would suck with dance cdr

There’s too many moving parts

You’re not just changing a cd

[plush roost]

Well heres a thought that could fix sub

One quick fix

Lingering shadows 50% --> 500%

There all complicated processes fixed

Gloomblade to victory!

[keen dome]

[lilac stag]

Yeah. We need dmg outside of CDs. Duh

[twilit phoenix]

I’m really enjoying sub in keys

What trinket would you sub out contract for on Bloodbound

Apparently the contract clones don’t hit the boss lelz

[uneven scarab]

Mandate/empowering crystal are what i use

[worn ivy]

does shadowheart work with subterfuge?

or dance?

[hazy breach]

No and no

[worn ivy]

whats the point having this talent

completely useless

[uneven scarab]

Theres no point

Its hot 💩

[worn ivy]

what am i gonna do leech while im stelathed 😄

xD

[jaunty umbra]

peak rogue design

[uneven scarab]

Even if it wasnt just stealth its still kinda useless

[cloud perch]

yeah and SHADOWstrike does SHADOWdmg

[gritty crest]

im a tank main and im looking at starting rogue - ive seen sub basic is the easiest, would youy agree?

[hazy breach]

Depends on what you find difficult and for what content, none of the rogue specs are particularly easy and straightforward

Besides assa in raid

[sick jackal]

There is so many worthless talents in sub aswell they are just there so its not a empty place

Talent trees are a illusion

[vestal escarp]

Some other trees

Have nodes that are like "increase dmg done by 4%"

[leaden prairie]

I mean for some specs it provide different gameplay

Outlaw has 2 at the very least that are quite distinct

Sub tree is just trash cause they have no idea what to add to the spec

[sick jackal]

For sub i would say bring nightblade back instead of darkbrew make a shadow damage gameplay and other side keep it as a physical damage gameplay

[leaden prairie]

I mean

[sick jackal]

Like nightblade replaces rupture increases shadowdamage done on the target or increases your shadow damage done

[leaden prairie]

If you guys are satisfied with just changing the damage type

Omegalul

[sick jackal]

Tbh thats more than enough imo to satisfy a change hungry community

We are like 10 people anyways

[leaden prairie]

I mean

If outlaw new build

Wouldn't change anything but made us do fire damage

I would be throwing a tantrum for a whole week

But you guys have maybe lower standards

If damage is purple happy

[sick jackal]

Yeah but thats the issue of tomorrow

We want changes atm

[swift tinsel]

The blizz dev motto

[vestal escarp]

Too little

[leaden prairie]

Doing shadow damage isn't. Change tho lol

[swift tinsel]

supply bandaid, changes soonTM

plus it further pushes DS

[sick jackal]

Yes but it gives us nightblade back

[rocky ocean]

I just want the bugs to be fixed

[leaden prairie]

Idk I think you should expect Moore than a change you can only see in details

[sick jackal]

Thats just not gonna happen sorry

[leaden prairie]

Isn't that just rupture with a different icon

[swift tinsel]

Plus 15% damage amp

[molten citrus]

it buffs shadow dmg

not just changing the school of dmg

[vestal escarp]

Last bone we got thrown was 3 more cps every 25s + talents locked in evey content

[sick jackal]

It was a dmg amp and was a lower duration and bigger proc dot

[molten citrus]

but it's basically the same gameplay wise

[leaden prairie]

Sounds like snd type of beat

[sick jackal]

The lower duration bigger hit felt more sub

[sick jackal]

Kinda yeah

[leaden prairie]

Nice

[molten citrus]

preparation back would be nice

[vestal escarp]

Erm

They killed it 2 months ago

[sick jackal]

For pve please no for pvp please yes

Prep as a pvp talent

[molten citrus]

nah

[molten citrus]

why

[uneven scarab]

Give fw actual synergy with the spec

[swift tinsel]

Use a good FW change to reshape the spec

[uneven scarab]

Literally all i wanna see

ye ye

[swift tinsel]

start there, build on later

[sick jackal]

We have 2 main cds already a 3rd big cd would be way too much

[molten citrus]

i'd give up flag for it in a heartbeat

gameplay wise

[uneven scarab]

Well shadow blades honestly should just be part of dance

Hell nah

[sick jackal]

Same fk flag

[uneven scarab]

Flag is like the best thing we got atm tf

[sick jackal]

Ramp button on a burst spec

[swift tinsel]

roll blades into dance, no dance cdr

[leaden prairie]

What does flag do

[molten citrus]

ramps mastery

[leaden prairie]

You just press it and do damage

[sick jackal]

That would make our dmg profile much more stable doesnt it

[leaden prairie]

It doesn't change gameplay

[uneven scarab]

Burst dam for a burst spec

[leaden prairie]

It doesn't offer anything interesting

[uneven scarab]

[molten citrus]

i dislike flag on sub

only reason it was accepted is because it was changed to mastery i feel

[leaden prairie]

Flag is the most boring covenant ability

[uneven scarab]

I mean it takes sub away from the outlaw profile

[leaden prairie]

And it's wild to me it's the only one we kept

[sick jackal]

I meam most sub thing dont offer gameplay changes

[silent ruin]

As trickster do we use CB on first sec tec or second ?

[uneven scarab]

Echoing was 100x more boring what

[leaden prairie]

Er had gameplay implications

[sick jackal]

Echoing wasnt useable with the new blades

[uneven scarab]

and flag doesnt?

[vestal escarp]

Cant delete it, a whole spec crutches on it

[molten citrus]

i mean i think most of us can agree good burst profile = better/more enjoyable

[leaden prairie]

It's the only spell in the game for rogue that made you change the way you use finisher

[leaden prairie]

It's just a cd

[sick jackal]

This i agree

[leaden prairie]

Only gameplay thing it has is press at max cps

Instead of at any cp

[molten citrus]

that could be changed tho

[uneven scarab]

Aight what would you replace flag with

[sick jackal]

But sub atm always gets full cps in burst windows so old repri was worthless

[sick jackal]

Preperation

[leaden prairie]

You can legit buff blades by 20% and it's flag kekw

Fllag is so funny

[molten citrus]

there's numerous ways to make changes tbh

[leaden prairie]

At least when sub played dust

And blades was 2 min

It had some interesting implications

[uneven scarab]

So shadowdust?

[leaden prairie]

A 1m30 and a 2min cd that you had to play around weirdly

[molten citrus]

why do people act like dust was preparation

[uneven scarab]

I mean i was a huge dust enjoyer

[sick jackal]

That was wayy to interesting tho

[rocky ocean]

hemorrhage

[leaden prairie]

Other than that flag bas never been interesting

[leaden prairie]

I mean it was maybe too much idk

Just saying

[sick jackal]

Dust isnt prep

[vestal escarp]

Pvp spec yap

[uneven scarab]

It serves nearly the same purpose

tho

[vestal escarp]

No dev notes see you tomorrow

[uneven scarab]

Just slightly different

[sick jackal]

I didnt mind dust tbh it was fun when you get to play it right it just made the spec too newbie unfriendly

[molten citrus]

it's a good bit different imo

comparing full reset to however many seconds dust reset

[sick jackal]

The small differences can effect rotations a lot thats what i learned from the sub rogue community somehow we always find a weired way of cooking builds

[uneven scarab]

I doubt they’ll give us prep if they decided dust was too convoluted

[silent ruin]

Does shadow heart work with dance?

[sick jackal]

No dead talent for sub

[uneven scarab]

coming from a massive dust enjoyer i just dont see it happening

[leaden prairie]

What's prep

I was born after

[swift tinsel]

Reset CD on a bunch of stuff

[molten citrus]

full reset on all CDs

[sick jackal]

Resets main cds

[leaden prairie]

Like it's a cd that does that

[uneven scarab]

Yes

U press button

[leaden prairie]

I see

[leaden prairie]

2 min?

[uneven scarab]

All cds back

10 min

[leaden prairie]

10

Holy

[uneven scarab]

Ya

[silent ruin]

What about cloaked in shadows ? Does that work with dance

[molten citrus]

ye it's a once per fight thing

[leaden prairie]

This would be so trash

[uneven scarab]

[leaden prairie]

With current sub

[sick jackal]

That was in classic cold blood was 3 min back then

[molten citrus]

it could be goated for some fights

[sick jackal]

No but the other part works with dance thats why they play the dmg reduction

[leaden prairie]

I don't see it

[molten citrus]

if it leads to an extra cast of big CDs

[leaden prairie]

Ye but that's it

[uneven scarab]

Literally worse dust

[leaden prairie]

You just get +1 cd over the course of a fight

With current sub you can't even do a bigger burst window

[sick jackal]

Just make prep reset cds that are higher than 1 min and make it 3 min cd

[azure mauve]

its a talent from a very different of not only wow but subtlety

[leaden prairie]

Cause pressing flag again override the old stacks right

And double blades does nothing

[azure mauve]

doesnt really work with todays toolkit

[leaden prairie]

And reseting sec tech would be trash

So

[uneven scarab]

Nah you would just cds->prep->cd’s

[leaden prairie]

Yes

[sick jackal]

We dont press flag into flag we burst for like 40 secs

5 dances in a row

[leaden prairie]

So a 40 s cd window lol

[uneven scarab]

Yep

[leaden prairie]

No one cares

[uneven scarab]

I mean thats cool and all but like ya

[azure mauve]

itd prob be really good for speedkills

double cds

[molten citrus]

more interesting imo

[sick jackal]

Tbh as a main big cd both flag and sblades feel bad

[uneven scarab]

Blades just blows anyways

[leaden prairie]

I was just saying it might have been interesting in the past cause you could do a bigger burst for something, but with current sub it would just be a longer burst so

[uneven scarab]

doesnt even work with our big finisher STILL

[swift tinsel]

Dreadbl..Shadowblades

[leaden prairie]

Kinda not fun, not interesting

No use case

[azure mauve]

prep main use back then was to obv reset cds but it was during a time where for example evasion and sprint were 5 min cds

[silent ruin]

Is this the most active sub chat has been ever

[molten citrus]

no

[leaden prairie]

3 people typing

Sub chat not used to that

[sick jackal]

Yeah we are 3 people now

[uneven scarab]

Insanely active

[rocky ocean]

make dave great again

[swift tinsel]

We are Dave

[uneven scarab]

Dave is us

[silent ruin]

Since it's so active, can someone please answer my question, as trickster do we CB on first sectec or second

[swift tinsel]

second

[silent ruin]

But on silken court mythic logs im seeing sec tec on first

[swift tinsel]

Okay

Some people optimize with it second, some dont'

[sick jackal]

Most people dont wanna bother with another keybind so they just macro it to tech

[vestal escarp]

It's a cursed minmax very few players are playing around it

[swift tinsel]

It's a dps gain to do second but you have to basically ignore a use if you aren't gonna have it line up by using it between flags

[uneven scarab]

Give sub CT back

[silent ruin]

I see, it's nothing to do with CB being reavailable for the extra damage on male boss snag?

[sick jackal]

What was CT?

[uneven scarab]

Crimson tempest

[swift tinsel]

Cool Thing

[uneven scarab]

The one assa has rn

[sick jackal]

Can we have garrote aswell then with iron wire

[molten citrus]

[sick jackal]

So i can silence in pvp

[uneven scarab]

Yeah fr

[azure mauve]

11.1 wishlist, delete deathstalker for sub, sub only has trickster now

[uneven scarab]

Assa is poison spec at this point anyway

[molten citrus]

so you want sub to remain useless in all content now

[sick jackal]

I am just memeing with garrote

[molten citrus]

[uneven scarab]

Seriously though i think a fw rework or something along those lines could be really cool though

[sick jackal]

I think we either need to go back to df 10.1 tree or get a new one

And with the minimal dev time we get

[uneven scarab]

Tree needs help bigtime yeah

[sick jackal]

Its a break until 11.2

[rocky ocean]

too much hustle for literally the least popular spec in the game

[sick jackal]

Is it the least popurlar spec becouse is doesnt get dev time or it gets no dev time becose its the least popular spec

[swift tinsel]

Yes

[uneven scarab]

Peoples perception of sub is the same it was in cataclysm

i think its a major part of the problem

[swift tinsel]

"What does sub even do?"

[uneven scarab]

“Pvp spec”

[swift tinsel]

^

[vestal escarp]

Yup pvp spec

[swift tinsel]

Then when you run m+ with people and destroy stuff they're confused lol

[rocky ocean]

when I started playing rogue this exp, I chose assa, because I thought sub is 999iq spec, and outlaw is lame combat revamp

[vestal escarp]

Unfortunately a key is just not first pull

[pliant topaz]

where do i upvote this

insanely based take

im down

[swift tinsel]

Just make Trickster the spec tree

[void hound]

based

[vestal escarp]

Sorry mate, more shadow damage

[uneven scarab]

On god

[swift tinsel]

with a few extra nodes

build around that, we don't care about hero talents

I will literally give up hero talents if they make trickster the whole tree and keep sectech, perception, etc

[pliant topaz]

bro hero talents are a meme

you cant even pretend they tried to make something with them

bro litearlly said "your autos do more damage"

[swift tinsel]

its so obvious too in a lot of cases

[pliant topaz]

naaaaah

lmfao

[molten citrus]

i feel like anyone who still thinks this about any spec in the game is extremely out of touch

[swift tinsel]

like some they absolutely cooked on

but we are not that lucky

[sick jackal]

Make sub a pvp spec again

[uneven scarab]

i tell myself people dont but holy shit i am so wrong

the average iq of world of warcraft

Is real low

[swift tinsel]

I thoughtt hat way about frost mage until this season

[vestal escarp]

Chat why is evis dmg split into 3?

[sick jackal]

Fun.

[vestal escarp]

[uneven scarab]

not allowed to have big number

[vestal escarp]

Just saying

[hazy breach]

Sectech split into 3

Coup split into 6

[vestal escarp]

Pvp spec

[hazy breach]

https://tenor.com/view/the-voices-cat-gif-18434775077971513816

[uneven scarab]

https://tenor.com/view/im-dead-dead-bruh-skeleton-dead-bruh-skeleton-dead-im-dead-bruh-gif-26854866

[leaden prairie]

Ok but we delete both fatebound and trickster from outlaw

[sick jackal]

Can we just rid wow from hero trees

[hazy breach]

Only trickster for outlaw

The suffering must commence

[uneven scarab]

wouldnt trickster be goated for law if they just removed the disgusting ks part

[vestal escarp]

Doesnt that fuck up kir with SS cps?

[swift tinsel]

Delete dispatch and bte then too

only KS finisher

[sacred yarrow]

but muh fantaseh

[sick jackal]

They dont have the dev time to manage all spec trees do we really need hero ones

[leaden prairie]

It's 1 cp fuck do I care

[vestal escarp]

Bruh

[leaden prairie]

Both hero talents just make the spec worse to play lol

[vestal escarp]

You cryed to buff opportunity since alpha

[leaden prairie]

I can deal with slightly less cps

[leaden prairie]

5% chance ye

Baseline should be buffed not some random hero talent

5% is so little idc

Would rather not have to deal with coins

[vestal escarp]

We get what we get

[leaden prairie]

In that case I would have rather gotten nothing

[hazy breach]

Theyre too busy forgetting to copy over hotfixes to the ptr

[leaden prairie]

Only sub play better with it's hero tree

[hazy breach]

So patches release without hotfixes applied to live 2 months earlier

[leaden prairie]

Both outlaw and sin actively make the gameplay worse

So just get ride of everything

Nuke it all

It's all trash

[uneven scarab]

Cant wait till we play ds :)))))

[hazy breach]

Deathstalker is fine for assa

It just shouldnt be strictly tied to vanish

[leaden prairie]

No it's not

[hazy breach]

To apply it

[uneven scarab]

no more fun for sub!!

[sick jackal]

Send us back to legion

[vestal escarp]

Zac malds over Dn strictness

[leaden prairie]

You lose it randomly, you are forced to a single target, you can't swap target freely without paying a random mini game

Positive of ds?

[sick jackal]

Luckyly i wont be there when you play ds

[leaden prairie]

You do more damage

Just buff the spec by 20%

Remove ds

And assa is litteraly more fun

[uneven scarab]

Just replace ds with a single node that says you do 30% more damage

[hazy breach]

Agree to disagree ig

[uneven scarab]

unironically more fun

[leaden prairie]

What do you enjoy it

[leaden prairie]

How can you disagree tho I don't get it

What fun does D's bring

It just bring annoyances

[uneven scarab]

Ds would be aight on sub if dn worked with evisc and bp

[leaden prairie]

That you have to deal with

[vestal escarp]

Fok crit for cps income

Lmao

[uneven scarab]

Storm in st

[leaden prairie]

What's that

[hazy breach]

Cycling the mark for a big envenom feels good

Again, i agree with losing the mark part being bad

[sick jackal]

And adds some cp gen cuz the rotation feels awful as ds

[leaden prairie]

I mean eleem

Common tho

[uneven scarab]

Tbh thats a core sub issue tho

And trick just fixes that

[leaden prairie]

You can't seriously think that having the mark mini game everytime you need to swap target

Having to prep mark for stuffs

Not being allowed to swap target ever

Etc

Is fun

No way or

In m+

[hazy breach]

I think its fine

[leaden prairie]

Like sure in raid it doesn't matter lol

[sick jackal]

I mean the obviously balanced the dance cdr around tbe extra cp trickster spends if the y balance cp spend on both trees they should be fine

[hazy breach]

Not every spec should be outlaw

[uneven scarab]

Yeah for sure

[molten citrus]

emergent gameplay

[sick jackal]

Like just make darkest night spend x more cps and tree is better

[leaden prairie]

The only spec that can freely swap target rn is sub tho omegalul

Outlaw has GS

We also worked so hard to get bte to be a buff instead of a debuff

[uneven scarab]

Tbh put combo points back on ur target i dont wanna have any fun anymore

[leaden prairie]

And then they make ds omegalul

Idk

Xd

[vestal escarp]

If you're making a point for gs then sub got thay shit too

[silent ruin]

Have cp on one and ds mark on other, then choose what to finish on

[molten citrus]

he's gone off the deep end, we can't save him

[leaden prairie]

Where

[molten citrus]

[uneven scarab]

[vestal escarp]

Fw and fazed

[uneven scarab]

Ye fazed

[leaden prairie]

Fw get applied with any builder instantly

[sick jackal]

Maybe a tree rework can bring him back

[leaden prairie]

I forgot what fazed was tho

[vestal escarp]

No?

[sick jackal]

%5 dmg

[leaden prairie]

You press storm you already have fw on every target

[vestal escarp]

Builders outside dance have to crit

[leaden prairie]

Wdym

[uneven scarab]

[sick jackal]

You put trickster dagger to target its dazed takes more dmg

Or tech applies fazed to all hit

[vestal escarp]

You also have to play around rotten bug to spread with storm

[leaden prairie]

You naturally play around it tho

[sick jackal]

Yes

Both sub rogue specs are giga passive

[vestal escarp]

Yeah and you naturally play around GS cd so whats the point

All specs got their clunky shit

[leaden prairie]

thats not what i mean lol

you will naturally press storm

[vestal escarp]

Ik

[leaden prairie]

in roten

and spread fw

[hazy breach]

No

[leaden prairie]

without even thinking about it

[vestal escarp]

No you dont

Strike is always more dmg

[leaden prairie]

wdym no

[vestal escarp]

Storm as second builder in dance is a decision

[leaden prairie]

its litteraly you guys that told me storm second builder

in dance

[vestal escarp]

You have to make based around how you wanna spread your dmg

[hazy breach]

Trickster strikes

DS storms

[uneven scarab]

When will they delete goremaw

Is the real question

[swift tinsel]

Never lol