subtlety

[plush roost]

I agree

Or find a way to shift responsibility onto dps

Where it doesn't kill the tank

[still trellis]

make tanks do healer dps but make them unkillable

[plush roost]

Or fk the healer

[leaden prairie]

?

people like doing dps

so why

[plush roost]

If tanks did 80% the dps of a dps class

People would be happy

[still trellis]

but why would you play anything than a tank at that point

[plush roost]

Because you still need dps?

[still trellis]

dunno, i hate it when tanks do a lot of dmg

[leaden prairie]

tanks do no damage when not tanking

[still trellis]

probably a habit of hate from league

[leaden prairie]

as longs as tanks dont outdamage dps

[still trellis]

tanks being unkillable? im fine with that

[leaden prairie]

i think its fine

[still trellis]

tanks doing dmg? i hate that

[plush roost]

Yeah you can even tie tank dps to their relative tanking

So u cant just do 5 tank keys

Like do you get angry when your prot pal pops wings and tolls+weapons on a pack

And does 3.5-4m dps?

Ik i dont lol

[still trellis]

yap i do

im a hater to tank damge, what can i say

[plush roost]

Haha fair enough

[still trellis]

all of the league tank seasons made me into this

[lilac stag]

Wrong. No one will play tanks. Most tanks are ex damaged dealers that got sick of looking for a tank.

[plush roost]

I would unironically play a tank rogue spec in a heartbeat

[keen dome]

Rogue tank?!

[plush roost]

Anytime i save a pull with evasion

Holy dopamine

[steel zinc]

Yes imo combat should be that spec

Literally says combat

Not outlul

[plush roost]

Whats combat? Sorry i only know how to sail the high seas

[leaden prairie]

i only do when im doing less damage than tank

[keen dome]

I don't want Blizz to add more classes. I want more specs. Rogue tank. Rogue healer. Rogue Bard. Rogue.. uh.. Rogue.

[leaden prairie]

bu i think thta says more about a spec being under tuned

than tank being overtuned

[plush roost]

True, and honestly prot only does that like what twice a dungeon?

Thats totally fine imo

They are still like 40-50% overall compared to other dps classes

[steel zinc]

I mean having more tank specs would have more people atleast try tanking

Also gearing as tank is way easier

[plush roost]

Yea but balance would be a nightmare i imagine

[still trellis]

same

[keen dome]

Shaman, Warlock and Rogue tank. The new boys on the block.

[still trellis]

even healer rogue for all i care

[steel zinc]

Yeah but well any tank first week could tank a 10 so it's w/e

[lilac stag]

Not as a MT. Raid wise you’re usually last on the priority list.

[steel zinc]

Balance for 0.1% title isn't relevant for a weekly

[steel zinc]

Yeah ofc because you don't need gear, but in general if you pug you can play a lot more the actual game.

[lilac stag]

sure, gearing in keys still tedious with the number of drops.

[keen dome]

Rogue tank being all about fencing and counters and dirty fighting

pocket sand defensive

[wide magnet]

no the game sucks

crests suck

dornagol sucks

m+ sucks

slands is the last version of wow that feels like wow rly

[vale pine]

I don't think tanks are the hardest to play role in m+

design in m+ is just not that good right now, same in raid

you see more oneshots or too many abilities you need to interrupt as a consequence of the DF talent rework

e.g. healers now can heal you up in half the time they could prior

and tanks/healers have way more tools to their exposal

[keen dome]

And now, on top of the abilities, you've got the change to kick / stops that make that even more frustrating imo.

[leaden prairie]

i think the change to kicks was good

[vale pine]

it basically means you now restrict players with oneshots, amount of casts, amount of dispells, etc.

[leaden prairie]

i think limiting pack size is good

[lilac stag]

Look at how many decurse specs actually use their ability in pugs.

[keen dome]

The change is pretty punishing in lower weekly content in pugs, though.

I think it is a good change in the higher end, and esp in more organized groups.

But for pugs? Lower-end content. It's made it a lot more punishing and not in the fun challenging way.

[vale pine]

The changes cater to the hardcore audience, which is seemingly the main focus of TWW

[leaden prairie]

and i prefer limiting it iwth amount of casts rather than weird dungeon design like spire or mist where you can only pull one pack at a time

[lilac stag]

Vault keys want to blast and that’s it.

Catering to high end killed vault keys

[vale pine]

there is no good/bad. People either love the changes and play more, or disslike it and play less

[keen dome]

Where do I fall when all I do is complain and post about it

[vale pine]

the game basically regulates itself, and if the palyer base shrinkts, it is likely a sign that players are not as happy with certain design decisions

[leaden prairie]

i think big packs are bad in wow

because the gmae isnt made to handle it

[lilac stag]

Typical WoW player

[leaden prairie]

it lags

[keen dome]

Hahaha

[leaden prairie]

and there is too many nameplates

[keen dome]

I don't disagree, Zac. I think it stops it devolving into "How big can we pull" too which is good.

[lilac stag]

don’t play on a toaster?

[leaden prairie]

?

i prolly play on a bettre pc than you noob

wow just sucks

[lilac stag]

Then why are you lagging

[leaden prairie]

because i playu wow

[lilac stag]

Zero lag on ovi.

[vale pine]

If you keep playing the game, then you rly like it and want it to be better.

[lilac stag]

Fix your shit

[vale pine]

uninstalling plater helps with that

[keen dome]

I want to see some happy medium between the kick change and making it less punishing at 10 / below.

[vale pine]

[leaden prairie]

mb cuh

its prolly me

and not wow

that is dogshit

[keen dome]

But I don't know what that is outside of making it an affix change but that has the issue of not really teaching it before you get to higher keys.

[leaden prairie]

optimized

you absolutely stupid

[keen dome]

Did you see the interview with Ion about the Ovinax Mythic stuff?

[vale pine]

https://tenor.com/view/why-not-both-why-not-take-both-gif-11478682

[leaden prairie]

you know what fellowship did

[lilac stag]

Expecting a 20 year old game to be optimized and throwing a ton of addons at it is going to give you a bad day.

[leaden prairie]

you always have the worse takes

[plush roost]

On the contrary, plater nameplate scripts are the only thing preventing clutter for me haha

[keen dome]

What'd they do?

[vale pine]

plater has a 2nd addon which dissables most of its features on smaller mobs/etc

[lilac stag]

You can work around the constraints

[leaden prairie]

you cant kick on lower keys, whithout the kick affix

[keen dome]

Oh yeah, right.

[leaden prairie]

and when you activate the kick affix

[vale pine]

basically the band aid solution to fix plater lag

[leaden prairie]

casts do way more damage

or effect

[keen dome]

Yeah

[plush roost]

Okay thats kind of based actually

[keen dome]

I remember now.

[leaden prairie]

its an interesting idea i tought

[keen dome]

That was a good and pretty interesting solution to it.

[leaden prairie]

i think the fact you cant kick at all is maybe bad

cause in the end it doesnt teach you that you need to kick right

but i liked the idea of

[keen dome]

You could keep it how it is, but simply make those casts do less damage on lower keys

[leaden prairie]

up until a certain key level, until you decided you understand what a kick is etc

kicks are mostly irrelevant

[keen dome]

Yeah

It'll be interesting to see what Blizz eventually copy from Fellowship. I think M+ atm is close to being in a real good place, they've just gotta fix the friction stuff a bit more.

[leaden prairie]

if keys werent depleting maybe

rn lfg is still not a thing

i would like for lfg to be a thing

you need to lessen the "not timing" punishment tenfolds tho

so delete depeltion

[keen dome]

I've seen a lotta different thoughts on depletions above 10. I think at 10 or below they serve no purpose. Just remove it there. But above? Wouldn't it just fall into the reset run again stuff or something similar on every mistake?

I think you'd need something to prevent people from chain-resetting or being weird, but I do think depletion needs to be changed

[woeful barn]

I like seeing blizzard asking for feedback at least for changes. Here’s to hoping for them going completely off the wall with changes, justifying said changes, and then in a .3 patch the “you’re right we’ve listened” changes coming next xpac.

I’m here for it regardless

[leaden prairie]

i think people would hit their max faster

idk if thats an issue

its like raid after all

after a bit its finished

[keen dome]

Yeah I don't think it's an issue at all

[leaden prairie]

the thing with keys depleting

is that its also an issue in high keys

[old anchor]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[leaden prairie]

it prevent high keys lfg to be a thing

cause 5 stakcs just reroll keys and push them fast so its way faster for them

[keen dome]

Yeah, a friend of mine trying to push into 14 and 15's is struggling to get into groups because none of them wanna take a risk on him, someone who hasn't timed it on 14 or 15.

[leaden prairie]

but in the end the deplete system still has the same issue for anyoen

it doesnt serve a purpose other than wasting your time

[keen dome]

Yep

[leaden prairie]

yesterday i was playing with friends

we pushed all our keys and ended up with 17gb 17 gb 16 gb

[keen dome]

I can only talk about weekly-level keys but i've had my 10's bricked multiple times by a tank or DPS being dumb. And it's very frustrating to go "well time to do a key i ge tnothing useful from!!" to get it back to vault level

[leaden prairie]

like we wasted all this time to push the keys up

[keen dome]

Yeah

[leaden prairie]

all for it to be useless anyway

and idk

its just so much time

[keen dome]

I still think the idea you mentioned in DF was my favourite take on it. No keystones, just dungeon levels.

[leaden prairie]

doing chores

[leaden prairie]

ye

still is my ideal

[keen dome]

It'd have other issues, but I think it'd be the best evolution to the system because you'd just play the content.

[leaden prairie]

you timed a 5 mist you cna go into a 6 mist

[keen dome]

Yeah

[leaden prairie]

like delves a bit

[keen dome]

You could even add in the ++ and +++.

Did a +2 on +++ well now you can do it on +5

[leaden prairie]

ye for sure i wouldnt remove thta

[keen dome]

I think it'd be healthier for weekly content too.

Although you'd just see people running DB+10 or something but you could adjust it and make it require 1/4/8 unique dungeons but that'd probably feel pretty bad.

[leaden prairie]

also in regards to your "wouldnt we just try over and over", we already do lol

thats just wow

[keen dome]

Yeah, true

[leaden prairie]

or any game in general

[keen dome]

It'd remove the busywork or chore portion.

[leaden prairie]

same as ni raid

and currently the fact depleting is so costly

you catn try stuffs

like try diff pulls

[keen dome]

Raid parellel is interesting because you don't wipe on a boss and go "well time to go do the 7 early bosses again"

[leaden prairie]

off meta comps

etc etc

[keen dome]

Yeah

[rocky ocean]

I'm just happy that M+ gets attention from blizz by itself

[leaden prairie]

I mean I hope they never implement their idea

Of removing timer

[keen dome]

Same

[leaden prairie]

For deaths counter instead

[keen dome]

That'd be really bad

[leaden prairie]

That's like

The worse thing I have ever heard

Xd

[keen dome]

You'd just sit and wait for cooldowns constantly

[leaden prairie]

Ye

[keen dome]

And we already have a problem where deaths are SUPER punishing.

[leaden prairie]

Play mobs one by one aswelll

[keen dome]

And you'd wanna make that even worse haha

you'd being blizz, obvs

I think removing friction from the mode is the best thing they can do. Less punishment for failure (I.e., what we're seeing with crest changes), more focus on just doing the content and not busywork to get to do the content.

Shifting it closer to how the Raid is. There's minute-to-minute friction, but mistakes don't remove potentially 30+ minutes of effort (or potentially hours if you've run a key up, etc)

You just reset and go again.

[leaden prairie]

and look

i think at worse it hurts high keys

not weeklies type players

having that kind of system

[rocky ocean]

1. that still does not guarantee that you won't die
2. completely not a problem for lower keys
3. for leaderboard and IO they could still count time (faster key = more IO)

[keen dome]

If they count it anyway for 3 then what's the point haha

[rocky ocean]

time won't affect depletion, that's the whole point

[keen dome]

I disagree it won't hurt lower keys, though. It absolutely will. You will, without a doubt, see even more toxicity and tantrums in lower keys due to mistakes than before.

Not because the system is inherently different, you can distill the timer into a death limit too

[leaden prairie]

2 spending 1 h in a 5 just cause tank want to play it safe is uhhh

[keen dome]

But because the number of deaths is now way more obvious and in front of people.

[vale pine]

I rly like the idea of soloq for mythic+

[keen dome]

And people would see the brutal number and go "Ah, this guy died six times. He's the problem NOW"

[rocky ocean]

you just give casuals like 50 deaths and call it a day, problem solved

[keen dome]

That won't solve it.

Human nature doesn't work like that haha

[rocky ocean]

then 100

[keen dome]

Big same, if only up to 10

[vale pine]

I don't rly know of the best way to implement it

but finding groups is disguasting this patch and has been a problem for a while

in fact, the gearing experience on your alt characters is not good too

which isn't good for the overall health of the game

[rocky ocean]

I think that's because they nerfed both tanks and healers in the same season

[keen dome]

I think you could do it like this: It goes to 2 - 10. You can only queue for a key level you've timed (+ ++ +++). So if you time a +2 at +++, you can queue for a +5.

[vale pine]

it could easily go up to 12

[keen dome]

They would need to remove the heal absorb affix for this to work, but otherwise I think it'd be absolutely fine. You'd also need a vote abandon, I think. Which can only be used when the timer has depleted. There's no keystones for this, either.

[keen dome]

Maybe, yeah. I think 10 is just the 'safe' range.

[vale pine]

especially with current design where the hardcore starts with their own affix

[vale pine]

soloq is about maxamizing your win chances, not including more dificult keys is bad in my opinion

[keen dome]

That's fair, yeah.

Either way I think it'd work

[vale pine]

basically, if you need certain combos to time a 12

[tepid trellis]

now thats a take, not a good one, but a take nontheless

[vale pine]

it is a high indication that the key is poorly designed

[keen dome]

I also agree with this.

A queue would be nice if only because then I didn't have to babysit joining keys constantly.

[leaden prairie]

yep

[keen dome]

Which is really boring to do for 45 minutes to do a weekly

[leaden prairie]

such an issue rn

like why is there dungeons that REQUIRE things like poison dispells or whatever

[tepid trellis]

sounds to me thats some outlul target capped bias

i miss legion and bfa

just pull 30% of the dungeon in one go

[tribal blade]

i think needing a the random dispel is fine, it's just these dungeons spam you with a million curse/poisons

[leaden prairie]

and then you have 2 specs in the game tha cna do that

[keen dome]

You just need to add more options, imo.

Give tanks bloodlust

[vale pine]

Gearing is a general problem, if you are on an alt you won't get easily invited into keys because of gear levels and score and as such stuck at somewhere around heroic raid loot.
This leaves you kind of stuck in a situation where most players hit a wall.

[tribal blade]

a good example of this is kirapal's team has yarrgi who swapped to playing rogue recently

and then swapped back to boomy

[vale pine]

+1 this, legion was goated

[tribal blade]

i assume because boomy has WAY more utility you need

[keen dome]

620 is super good gearing and then you hit THE GILDED WALL (and also RNG of loot)

Such an annoying design approach

[tepid trellis]

well back then almost all classes had access to mass AoE

[vale pine]

you are kinda left at "do mythic raids" as the only gearing option

[keen dome]

Yeah

16 weeks (assuming good vault RNG) to Myth gear via M+

[leaden prairie]

well it also does more damage anywya kkew

[keen dome]

Discounting crafted because I am too lazy and stupid to figure that math out

[leaden prairie]

or the same

[tepid trellis]

crafting sucks big ass

[vale pine]

It also feeds back into what i mentioned earlier about games trying to indirectly make you play a certain way

[tribal blade]

i think sin slightly outdpses boomy in overall, but the utility difference is crazy

[leaden prairie]

meh

idk about that

[tribal blade]

not sure tbh, i haven't seen a key with a rogue and boomy together in a while

[leaden prairie]

thats irrelevant

you can onoly compare comps with enh + boomie

and enh + assa

if you start having ass + boomie its already not a fair comparaison

idk

[tribal blade]

yeah the last time we saw that was months ago

[keen dome]

Ye, agreed

[tribal blade]

on this topic can they please change how shiv works for rogues

needing to have the cd be triple everyone else's because of sin feels so bad

[keen dome]

Haha yeah

give rogue a rez and bloodlust and a poison cleanse and uh

Actually give everyone bloodlust

it's time

Give warriors a rez too (it's them shouting at the dead body to get back up)

[tribal blade]

it could be good to have every class in the game able to bres

i know some other mmos have that system

[keen dome]

Yeah.

Or just give every healer a brez and every tank a bloodlust

That way every single group has both of those regardless of makeup.

And you resolve one of the bigger, most frustrating group comp issues.

[tribal blade]

it would make sense for every healer to be able to bres

honestly anything to fix comp problems

starting a group for a key is so annoying because you have to go down the laundry list of every single thing you need

[vale pine]

The scroll/item system we had in the past did make this a lot less problematic.

[keen dome]

Absolutely

It was really good and is the system I'd def point to them revisiting

[vale pine]

Just saiyng, not saiyngh its the best solution or that raid buffs are a problem.

[leaden prairie]

should be aoe also

[keen dome]

Nah I think it's the best route to go.

[tribal blade]

that would be dope

[keen dome]

Strong agree

[leaden prairie]

at least they didnt continue wit hthe trash from sl

and needing covenants

for keys

that was

so fucking bad

dude

[tribal blade]

bro that was beyond horrendous

[leaden prairie]

talking about raid buffs

raid buffs in m+ are an abomination imo

[tribal blade]

that moment when you're already a 5 stack and nobody is able to go NF before mists

[leaden prairie]

if i play outlaw

[tribal blade]

yeah raid buffs in M+ are a problem

you don't run a good comp you're doing like -10% dps

[leaden prairie]

i get close to 15% more damage if i have war monk sham

how is it possible to balance specs

[tribal blade]

also sub rogues are pretty heavily tied to needing a sham

[leaden prairie]

with these things

being a thing

[tribal blade]

find yourself a squishvegan

[keen dome]

Imagine if the keystone just gave you all class buffs when you put it in

[leaden prairie]

like 15% is a huge fucking number no ?

[tribal blade]

it's very big

[leaden prairie]

like surely raid buffs in m+

[alpine wraith]

for surv too

pala priest and heal shaman

[leaden prairie]

are like an actual big issue no?

[alpine wraith]

is around 30% surv

[keen dome]

Yeah

[alpine wraith]

oh and aug too

[tribal blade]

yeah it was like godcomp at the end of DF

[leaden prairie]

like for the longest time outlaw played with stuffs like dh tank - priest - mage etc, you are litteraly doign 15% less dam with that comp than with a mele comp

like surely

thats not

that shouldnt be a thing

how can you tune anything with thta in mind

the dya warrior went off meta vs pal prot

[tribal blade]

they did start to address it by nerfing some raid buffs

[leaden prairie]

outlaw was basically nerfed 5%

[tribal blade]

but they didn't touch any of the melee buffs

[leaden prairie]

like ?

[keen dome]

Just make the keystone give you all class buffs!

Blammo, solved. Everybody wins.

[leaden prairie]

ye

or deactivate them

[keen dome]

I like mine more but that would result in the same effect so either works

[tribal blade]

probably just give you them, or give you a choice of like 5

people like having more stuff instead of stuff taken away

[keen dome]

Giving you all of them would go a little way to making lower content easier without hurting higher content, too.

Which I think is good design

[leaden prairie]

i think thats a similar sisue tho

cause then if you have buffs baseline

[tribal blade]

dw as soon as i wrote it i realized that's a problem haha

[leaden prairie]

you just getm ore

[keen dome]

Yeah

Either all of them or none of them.

Honestly do that, bloodlust on tank. COmbat rez on all healers. Probably solved some of the biggest issues in M+ comps right there.

All of it would just remove friction though.

Make LFG better although you'd still have the issue of people deciding X or Y class is better at popping bloodlust / Combat rez.

dark legacy comic issue, imo.

[leaden prairie]

ye but at that point its more a matter of tuning

that needs better focus anyway

and is already an issue

[keen dome]

Haha, not even then. It's just human perception. But it's a non-issue for most people

Let me get the comic

[leaden prairie]

if you try to remove all the comps issue its already way better

[keen dome]

https://www.darklegacycomics.com/558

[tribal blade]

you remove the thing of "we want to invite that person, but can't because or else we don't have X thing"

[keen dome]

Yep

[tribal blade]

it's crazy how much it happens

the amount of times a friend queues and then i have to msg them "sorry i would take you, but then we don't ahve bres"

[keen dome]

It's really funny when you see a +8 wanting an Aug.

[tribal blade]

that's just stupid

[keen dome]

Yeah, this is such an obnoxious design issue that simply doesn't need to exist.

[tribal blade]

well not stupid, but what you bring to an 8 matters so much less than the caliber of player you bring

[keen dome]

And solving it doesn't really take anything away from the game.

Low keys are very funny.

[tribal blade]

i've been seeing it when doing weekly keys, i've got like over 500 IO on the people listing 10s and don't get insta invited to some groups

it's wild

[keen dome]

Ye

I've been told by multiple people that Sub is bad and I should swap to Ass.

It's a 10! it doesn't matter! Play anything!

[tribal blade]

lol yeah, sub's been haunted with that since DF S3

like 2.5 seasons of being dogshit in M+ so that's all anyone rememebrs

TWW launch was pretty bad for sub in keys

sorry not pretty bad, really really fucking bad

[keen dome]

Really dire.

[tribal blade]

REALLY dire haha

[keen dome]

So dire I.. played Assa

And then gave up and played Sub and made my friends suffer.

[tribal blade]

yeah i used sub to get title when it was down bad and even i was like nah i can't do this right now

this is hopeless

[keen dome]

Ye

I do think we're in a real good spot now though. At least speaking from a AotC / weekly 10's / early Mythic level.

[tribal blade]

it's great right now, i'm having a really good time with sub

[leaden prairie]

I still think sub is prolly better than outlaw

any sub key doer

[tribal blade]

i think it is most likely

[keen dome]

I like doing big boss damage

[tribal blade]

mostly because not target capped

[leaden prairie]

i think cds

are quite important this tier

[still trellis]

sub is a vibe in keys agree, i really like speccing sub for my weeklys

[vestal escarp]

Yeah it's burst

[leaden prairie]

cause we have keys where cds are very important

like mist first boss

nw every hard pack and third boss

[tribal blade]

true yeah

[keen dome]

Absolutely agreed, yeah

[vestal escarp]

With 90s clock on burst and 3 sod charges sub got a bit more sustained in keys

[leaden prairie]

i think dawn is similar where it hugely favor cds

[keen dome]

DB owns for it. Just cooldowns for everything

[tribal blade]

this has always been the issue outlaw has had with bosses that have big burn phases

[vestal escarp]

But sub without that form of sustained couldnt function at all in keys

[keen dome]

Depending on route you can have CD's for first pack, first side ship, boss, all 3 minibosses, pack, boss, miniboss, boss.

[vestal escarp]

So it's entirely an outlul issue

[keen dome]

And it feels so good

[vestal escarp]

Just start asking for burst zac

[tribal blade]

using cds as sub doesn't feel restrictive, 1.5 mins feels like a good amount of time

[keen dome]

Yeah

[vestal escarp]

And get your spec butchered in the process

[leaden prairie]

cds are boring tho

i realy dont like cds

BUT

[keen dome]

I still think blades could last longer

but 1:30 is so good

[leaden prairie]

with tww i discovered another way

[vestal escarp]

Then ol is perfect

[leaden prairie]

of haivng burst

that i didnt know was a thing before

well i dont think it was as prevalent before

but

procs with charges

that act as burst

[keen dome]

Curious how it'll feel in S2 where we might have less burst-potent dungeons.

[vestal escarp]

So...

[leaden prairie]

like enhance tempest

[vestal escarp]

Ol gameplay?

[tribal blade]

oh so sit on rpocs?

[leaden prairie]

ye

[tribal blade]

ahhhh smart

[leaden prairie]

like enhance can sit on tempest procs

to burst something

[vestal escarp]

You can sit on vanishes and adr

[leaden prairie]

which i think is kinda coool

[vestal escarp]

And get burst

[leaden prairie]

i can sit on vanish yes

its not burst tho

cause vanish is 20 s cd

lol

[vestal escarp]

Crackshot windows are burst windows

[tribal blade]

are you in danger of dropping adr if you sit on procs

[leaden prairie]

on 20s cd with 6s duration

[vestal escarp]

You're not asking for burst

[leaden prairie]

thats not burst

you arent bursting when you are in burst window 330/40% of the time

[vestal escarp]

You're asking for significant burst that lasts 20 seconds

You're asking for cds

[leaden prairie]

well im not asking for anything

i would rather we didnt get cds

[vestal escarp]

"supposedly"

[leaden prairie]

but also crackshot isnt burst lol

[tribal blade]

what if outlaw got the option to be more steady dps or more bursty with talents

not a huge variance

[leaden prairie]

what i would really like instead

[tribal blade]

but you could make the choice

[leaden prairie]

is for outlaw downsides

to not be that huge

like why do we gotta be rng

why do we have to mega suck with downtime

[tribal blade]

yeah outlaw downtime feels horrendous

[vestal escarp]

Apparently this friction is liked in the high places

[leaden prairie]

we could instead be an actual flatline dps, always doing the same damage, rn we kinda have like the worse damage profile, we can randomly stop doing any damage

[vestal escarp]

Otherwise every melee would turn into warr

[tribal blade]

i think they kinda moved fury slightly away from steady dps into a bit more burst if i'm not mistaken

[vestal escarp]

I can ask

[tribal blade]

but i don't really know fury well

all i know is they have actual cds now

[vestal escarp]

But i had the opposite perception

Fury pressing avatar/reck barely does a thing

[leaden prairie]

fury is the biggest burster in the game in aoe

[tribal blade]

iirc like odyns and avatar

yeah having 2 warrs on my raid team and doing ovi

both doing 3+ mil overall

stealing all the add damage

[vestal escarp]

But

You just said it right yourself

It's stealing not doing

[leaden prairie]

no?

[vestal escarp]

If the adds lasted, other classes would get a better burst

[leaden prairie]

they burst faster

which is hat you want

[vestal escarp]

But it's not the strongest

Havoc is prolly stronger

[leaden prairie]

kill them as early as possible

also for raid there is an argument of

least st loss

to do that job

i mean i think there is a reason why people put war on adds

and not havoc

war is just a better damage profile

[vestal escarp]

Yeah havoc has cancer timers/sutup to do that job with demonsurge

[plush roost]

Delaying eyebeam in the year of our lord 2024 nty

[vestal escarp]

But double beam + 8 surges and barrage are unbeatable, maybe

Surely not by warrs

[plush roost]

They have this its called Killing Spree and its WICKEDGAMING

[leaden prairie]

ks is 20s cd

cuh

[plush roost]

(for legal reasons this is a joke)

[leaden prairie]

again cant be burst

[tribal blade]

TRUE how could i forget KS

[leaden prairie]

on 20s cd

what i tought of tho

or mby it was lok i cant remember

so imagine this right

a stacking buff

you release by pressing a button

since outlaw have 0 damage amp

[plush roost]

Spymasters WebGun!

[leaden prairie]

we would press it on cd to release the damage usually

but you could just hold the buff

if you wanted

for burst

[tribal blade]

i like it

[leaden prairie]

you get me or

so its like not a cooldown

its very outlawy to manage

[plush roost]

Sounds cool

[leaden prairie]

and ye kinda like spymaster

but without a cd obv

[tribal blade]

i imagine not insane

like you couldn't stack it up really, really high and then do godlike damage during a damage amp

[keen dome]

Make it killing spree

[plush roost]

This reminds me of a league if legends champion

They have a similar mechanic

[leaden prairie]

its the only way i see giving oulaw burst tho

[keen dome]

You save up damage to go on the killing spree. Let 'er rip.

[leaden prairie]

without ahving a cd

be an actual cd

tath would be a 10min cd on cdr

or hwatever

which would be cringe af

[vestal escarp]

[plush roost]

Knowing blizzard they would make this but you have to spend your RtB buffs instead

Each buff enhances the cd

[vestal escarp]

Dw zac ks is getting changed for the better surely

Whenever rog gets devtime tho

[leaden prairie]

wish they would touch up the hero taletns aswell

[vestal escarp]

... or buffed by 35%

[leaden prairie]

for each one of them there are annoyance

that odnt need to be there

deathstalker doesnt need ot be a debuff, it should be abuff instead so it doesnt fall off, and you can swap target

fatebound capstone shouldnt take 10 min to proc and then fall off in 15s out of combat

fun fact

both r1 and r2 kill of sikran outlaw

both have 0 % coin uptime

7% agi btw

unlucky i guess

and hten for trickster, coup shouldnt be a dash in, and shouldnt be an increased gcd duration for hwatever reason

[plush roost]

I love thousand cuts into coup into webblade true combo

[alpine wraith]

need to be a 100 iq game and insta shadowstep as you begin coup

you have around 0.03 secs

[tribal blade]

i have a feeling they're gonna do something about DS

because it's such a wide spread complaint about the tree

also outlaw not being able to touch trickster is hilarious in a tragic way

[fallow nimbus]

Mark needs to become a buff in 11.1 atleast

[tribal blade]

at the very least if it remains a debuff on the target it shouldn't be possible to drop off the target for any reason

DN should become a consumable buff that you can use whenever you want after it procs

also mark should be applicable by literally any builder

i don't think they would change mark to become a buff on the player because it would go against the entire theme of DS

[warm marlin]

You should also get DN whenever a target becomes untargetable/jumps away/disappears etc

If it’s not going to be a player buff

[tribal blade]

i think if it remains a debuff on the target it would be better to just be able to apply it out of stealth

[leaden prairie]

Why not

I don't get why it has to be a debufg

Doesn't change anything no?

[tribal blade]

isn't the entire thing of deathstalker "you mark a target for death"

[leaden prairie]

Rip marked for death

Best rogue ability

[tribal blade]

i can't remember exactly the description for DS

but it was something like that

[tribal blade]

it was a banger one for ol 😉

[leaden prairie]

Well

Anyway

Trash gameplay

For the sake of some lore or whatever

Maybe don't

[tribal blade]

but i agree it would be WAY better as a buff on the player

[leaden prairie]

There is a reason they removed almost every stupid debuff thing like that

Like bte is a buff now

Not a debuff

Does it make more sense?

[tribal blade]

yeah the bte change is huge

[leaden prairie]

Not at all

Do we care ?

No it's way better now

Bte as a debuff was cancer

[tribal blade]

i would give 0 fucks to lore or nerd fantasy if they made mark a buff on the player

[leaden prairie]

Yes

[tribal blade]

i would be over the moon

[leaden prairie]

No one would care xd

[tribal blade]

i just feel blizz likes to double down on their ideas

[leaden prairie]

On their mistakes ye

They love that

[tribal blade]

HA true

[alpine wraith]

remember when it stunned

ahaha

[tribal blade]

it actually gives me hope they changed how bte works, means they know locking you to 1 target is kinda toxic

[alpine wraith]

maybe that person already left blizz

same as the one that made finality finally stay on you forever

after almost 6 years

in my head cannon the one that killed nightstalker is also a hero

now just kill shadowed finishers

so many problems

with such an easy solution if you dont have competent devs or time to fix nip it

same with sec tech if it was usable after x finishers instead of on a cdr thing

it would be way better and only 1 hit or no pet nonsense

[lilac stag]

all these suggestions for an unplayed class and spec

[hazy breach]

I dont think theyre gonna remove the debuff anytime soon, but i dont think they need to either. I dont think its a problem

[lilac stag]

sorry too busy with mages

Hunters

[hazy breach]

To me the problem is just that its too easy to completely lose the mark, especially as assa

By the target going away/you dying with darkest night etc

[leaden prairie]

Nope

Never knew bte stun

[alpine wraith]

wait that is weird it did stun in legion and bfa

did you not play back then?

[leaden prairie]

No I started in SL cuh

[alpine wraith]

damn im surprised you stayed

SL was

an experience

[leaden prairie]

Why

If you never knew better

SL was as any other expac to me

[tribal blade]

i agree, would like to see mark be applied by most builders regardless of stealth

[alpine wraith]

it was better than bfa in some ways

the seasonal affixes were cool

[tribal blade]

i have so many fond memories of SL

was a welcome change to the nightmare of bfa

what happened to sub during bfa probably goes down in history as one of the worst things to happen to a spec ever

[alpine wraith]

people were so surprised in m+ when you logged in

wait mob just went from 30 to 0

but overall dmg in bfa was so bad

[hazy breach]

Demo and survival in wod was quite something too

[tribal blade]

haha after i came back from a year long bfa break i would get "YOU'RE PLAYING SUB?!?!?"

i didn't play too much wod except launch and then the last tier

[alpine wraith]

well sub has had worse times than bfa

[hazy breach]

Survival ultra stacked multistrike because it had an interaction that double dipped with it

[alpine wraith]

but at those times sub was kinda a joke spec for pve

[small juniper]

now say cap

[hazy breach]

Then they just removed that interaction and survival was literally unplayable for the rest of the expac

[tribal blade]

damn that's rough

[alpine wraith]

when people try sub s1 of MoP

[tribal blade]

i actually really miss multistrike

[alpine wraith]

it will be funnyu

i like the rupture mechanic

[tribal blade]

rupture multistrike interaction was really cool

sometimes would just fully consume an entire rupture mid dance

[void hound]

is it intended behaviour for coup to eat your cold blood if you press cold blood while the coup animation runs?

[alpine wraith]

yea

it is 3 hits

[void hound]

coup really not beating the cringe allegations

unreal

[alpine wraith]

yep

[tribal blade]

easy answer is just use CB with sectec

[alpine wraith]

maybe he pressed the macro too early

was still in coup animation

[void hound]

i play with manual cb

[hazy breach]

CB on coup is not the end of the world

But you'd want it on the entire coup

[void hound]

well its annoying

when you want to CB the second sec tec

but pressing it a little too early

can eat it

[alpine wraith]

i have 2 sec techs

[void hound]

as if the timings werent all senseitive enough

[hazy breach]

Tornado famously eats peoples cb too

[alpine wraith]

instead of manual cb

yea that one is silly

[tribal blade]

oh that's cursed

[void hound]

i really enjoy manual cb tbh

[tribal blade]

yet another reason to hate nado

[small juniper]

only if u are a noob

[hazy breach]

true, based and real

[alpine wraith]

that is what i tell people when they cant step on queen itermission before dying

[vale pine]

they loved this one trick.
Tornado combo points can't get eaten if you don't play tornado.

[worn ivy]

yo @vale pine wassup

need good talents for m+ finality darkbrew blast

[vale pine]

i would not play dark bew

https://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/rogue/subtlety/trickster/DANEVVFRRRUVZggVDUAQOVUREQVEVUUQWhUBQEFVVUCAQ

something like this.

[worn ivy]

im playing this i cannot lgo wowhead its banned in my country

[round latch]

❤️

long time no see

[mystic ether]

Where are you from? Why is it banned?

[worn ivy]

Cyprus

i dunno why

[round latch]

weird coz i asked a friend of mine in cyprus says its not

ah wait

u are on turk cyprus side aight?

[hollow snow]

They found him

Rip lashga

[worn ivy]

goddam

[vestal escarp]

erm

hmm lemme see what if

nah

before 10.2 sub didnt really use the deep left side of the class tree cause cause it had redundant stuff like FW, an unused dance charge and so on

(thematically the left side is supposed to be the subtlety adjacent one)

with 10.2 stuff vital to the spec was moved there, a second dance charge to use in cds, nightstalker, old soothing

now as of 0.5 that same left side is giga dead for us

[fair stump]

why not take the blind aoe

[worn ivy]

depends on dungeon @fair stump

[leaden prairie]

well there is not a single dungeon where this thing does anything so

[sinful zephyr]

Maybe in cinderbrew meadery soon...there were some annoying packs that slowed you while you have to run out of range

[hazy breach]

Well you can just kick the cast that slows

And you wont get slowed

[vale pine]

good build

[twilit phoenix]

[sinful zephyr]

Oh ok

[barren wren]

Do you guys hold cds on silken court or just send as it is ?

[dry plank]

Hold for burst phase. But better check lorrgs and during prog you will naturally make similar

CDs almost natural aligned with burst phases

[leaden prairie]

@hazy breach any key you would play deathstalker

[strange chasm]

SV and maybe NW

But even then trickster is better so

[hazy breach]

Prob not

[leaden prairie]

oki

[vestal escarp]

on wake

just to hit worms with bp at blightbone

[leaden prairie]

you have less burst as deathstaker right

[hazy breach]

Yes

[leaden prairie]

is it noticeable

say for third boss nw

[hazy breach]

Not that much

But the add will not die

[vestal escarp]

not a deal breaker, you can still luck out of coup and do a normal burst

[leaden prairie]

ok

cause like

i still play sub for last area nw right

and idk which to play

one is more burst for third boss

[vestal escarp]

for that area trickster obv

[hazy breach]

Last boss is all burst too

[leaden prairie]

but then as far as i understand it deathstalker is just better st

[hazy breach]

Ye by like 2.5% or so

[leaden prairie]

well bursting shields isnt the same

just a dance window or whatever its not really similar

i think on that boss you would rather have more st

but ok if its not that ahead anywya

trickster prolly better

[hazy breach]

Most of that difference is auto attacks

[coarse nexus]

would you use bp on third boss when playing deathstalker?

[barren haven]

btw can we Vanish and skip to be send down in last Boss nw? Never tried that

[alpine wraith]

yes you can

but he can choose you again

[hazy breach]

Theyve fixed completely negating it with vanish yes

It will just recast on somebody else

[leaden prairie]

you can grapple it tho

[hazy breach]

Honestly not even sure its a dps loss to be sent down as sub

Unless you have flag up right as you get sent down

[leaden prairie]

idk

it always fucks up with my cds

idk what to do

cause you have to send a dance down

[hazy breach]

Ye

[leaden prairie]

so you also have to hold a dance possibly while up

but then you can also be in situations where you need to farm dance back up to send cds

[hazy breach]

Send dance on shields except when your buddy has buff

[leaden prairie]

maybe im just bad on that boss tho

[hazy breach]

It lines up really well

[leaden prairie]

i havent gotten much training

always deplete before last boss

[wind canopy]

I expected better from you

[leaden prairie]

crafter carrying boss anyway

[leaden prairie]

no

[hazy breach]

Least favourite key of the season for sure

Stinky key

[leaden prairie]

nw is just too technical of a key

[wind canopy]

Yeah

[leaden prairie]

its too hard imo

people take it as an easy key cause timer is easy

but idk

infinity of stuffs that can go wrong

also i have depleted so many keys on second boss breaking cc

or paladin shield fake kicking that cringe ass boss cast

that isnt a real cast

[wind canopy]

In SL, that key was such a pain in the ass because how fucked up things could get

[hazy breach]

Idk why they never fixed the cleavers

Same with the MC in mist

[wind canopy]

Like how they haven’t fixed a lot of things

[leaden prairie]

you know the funny thing

they fixed dk mcing the cleaver in sl right

but not priest

[hazy breach]

Ye

[leaden prairie]

forgor

happens

[hazy breach]

Its just such a massive difference on last boss if you never have to care about the shield

(the fight stinks anyway, but still)

[leaden prairie]

massive stinker of a fight

[dry plank]

@leaden prairie change description xD

[leaden prairie]

bro i just

wanted to do a quick sub key

i have been waiting for a healer in that grp

for 20 min

[dry plank]

joking m8 xD

[hazy breach]

Gotta swap to assa for the group finder

People aint believers

[leaden prairie]

entering grp is fine

i have io to enter 15s

but we couldnt find a healer cuh

[hazy breach]

But ye i meant if youre sitting in the group

People might think its sus

[leaden prairie]

oh

ye right

xd

[hazy breach]

I also did a quick sub key but i played with a god elemental and got absolutely clapped

[leaden prairie]

ye i mean

rogeu cant win against any shaman

its just how it is

[hazy breach]

I pop CDs and do 14m dps

He pops cds and does 25m dps

[round latch]

@pliant topaz irrelevant but what summoners for chogath top with comet?Im thinking teleport/ghost

or should i go ignite?

[leaden prairie]

trickster kingsbane dance generally

[wind canopy]

Isn’t it dependent on the opposing champ?

[tepid trellis]

if in doubt

flash tp it out

[glacial hinge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[round latch]

yup im just into plat promos and im reading some stuff

it says ignite into tryndamere or anything that can heal

chogath big carry and i wont have to deal with botlane degeneracy

[next pulsar]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[void hound]

nah thats troll

tp flash and youre golden

[bleak night]

ghost cleanse

[leaden prairie]

wtf..

[wind canopy]

wtf

[bleak wind]

they getting the sub treatment

probably wanted to do that all along and did black powder by mistake

numbers kinda match

[upper narwhal]

no it's getting nerfed with a bugfix so they're buffing it to compensate

[swift tinsel]

What's this "bugfix" you speak of

We sub rogues are unfamiliar

[vale pine]

huh, where did that come from

[vestal escarp]

when the future

is bleak

[random hare]

wtf..

[leaden prairie]

11.0.7 buffs ..

[vale pine]

oh, thats not a new buff

[random hare]

11.0.7 buffs ..

[vale pine]

11.0.7 buffs...

[lilac stag]

HUNTER buffs

smh my head

[worn ivy]

SUBTLETY NEED BUFF ASAP

i think even outlaw does more in M+ rn

[lilac stag]

[swift tinsel]

I don't think Ive seen an outlaw rogue this season

when playing any of my alts

[lilac stag]

They come in here when they can’t do enough dps on bosses in keys

[swift tinsel]

lmao based

I saw the unthinkable the other day

A rogue in lfg as sub who switched to sin after they got into the group

[lilac stag]

tell me when I’m telling lies

[worn ivy]

thats what i do usually

also i just realize this subtlety part is dead

this disc used to be busy AF

[hazy breach]

Its off-season for wow

So engagement is going to be lower in general

[lilac stag]

Sub has only been busy when it was stupid broken or you got forced to play it.

rogue just isn’t played.

[void hound]

and everyone who plays rogue plays assa

[lilac stag]

we’ve been basically 20 consistent people in here since beta. lol

[strange chasm]

🫡

[lilac stag]

maybe got a 5 player bump with supercharger.

[vale pine]

the entire game on retail is fairly dead if you want to call it that.
Classic is super popular for streamers

[lilac stag]

People waiting for streamers to die in hardcore. Peak wow content.

[vale pine]

hardcore is just a glorified chatroom

[strange chasm]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hexed bluff]

Love you all ❤️

[alpine wraith]

np

[lean inlet]

idk i feel like sub is doing pretty good…the only downside is the zero dmg outside shadow dance …so yes one misstake in rotation or dead in dance is huge af

[void hound]

why is it a downside

[lean inlet]

in necro 13 i had almost 2,7milion overall

[void hound]

its not like uptime doesn matter since you have to generate cdr

[hazy breach]

Because the burst isnt big enough to warrant the luls unfortunately in keys

[lean inlet]

well that zero dmg in that window is kinda bad

its like 100k ?

[hazy breach]

Like elemental does more damage in their burst and more damage outside cds compared to sub

[lean inlet]

i just hope for some giga set next season

[hazy breach]

Like twice as good burst

Spymaster stronk

[lean inlet]

shamans need nerf specially enha xd

[bleak wind]

am I cooked or why would you not run triple shaman and rotate spymaster

[lean inlet]

the real question is what would make sub Meta dps

because obviously something is missing

and don’t say dps 🫠

[hazy breach]

Its literally just dps

Its pretty much always just what spec does the most damage

The only exception really is aug, but it still does real good damage

Like sub needs to do enhance/elemental type bursts for it to be real good

Its fine right now, but it could def do bigger aoe

[lean inlet]

i feel like 1minute cds would fix it

or that would be too op? 🫠

[tulip token]

Dang they really wanted us to use this new ring huh? xD

[chrome palm]

https://tenor.com/view/yakuza-kazuma-kiryu-pissed-off-gif-14586175

[alpine wraith]

i mean it will be good now

pog

oh wait all effects are boring and rng

[lilac stag]

because regular rings are so exciting

[alpine wraith]

at least my ring does not proc randomly my stat

so i can ENJOY the power of extra mastery and whatever it is

while i backstab

big rupture value

and never proc in dance inc

actually this might make PE better

we are safe from replicating in ST now

[plush roost]

Safe from replicating?

Wow this is the best ring ever!

[hazy breach]

if theyre not touching the gem tuning, just increasing ilvl

Ring seems to be ~1.4% better than current ones while max upgraded

So decent, but not huge by any means

[bronze turret]

I think it kinda sucks for ppl that were sitting the patch (but still raids at a high level)

1.4% is not something you can just ignore, but kinda sucks ass to farm

[hazy breach]

From what ive heard its very easy to aquire

And doesnt take long to upgrade, as in actual time spent doing the quests for upgrades

Its still weekly gated

[bronze turret]

so its like a login reward

[wind canopy]

Yeah sounds like it

[tribal blade]

the ring itself sounds quick to get, but how fast are the gems to get

[hazy breach]

@tribal blade I regret to inform you that after getting the ansurek ring and doing some recrafts im doing very notably more damage as assa in keys

So prob wont be any 17s as sub

[plush roost]

Another soldier has fallen

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/traitor-gif-19047641

[tribal blade]

nooooooooooooo

sub dream dead

i haven't even looked how much damage sin gains from the queen ring

[hazy breach]

Mostly a ring with crit

I only had big vers ones

[tribal blade]

ahhh gotcha

yeah gaining more crit as sin is really noticable

[strange chasm]

I gained more crit and I agree with eleem lol. Slamming in keys with ass

[hazy breach]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/mythic-dungeon-tuning-coming-in-patch-11-0-7-dispels-and-tank-busters-nerfed-354468?utm_source=discord-webhook

Now score is gonna go up way more

[tribal blade]

they missed the poison damage from the mobs in the first area of ara

[pliant topaz]

its kinda funny how everything they do is just what popular streamers/wow influencers are saying they should do

[strange chasm]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

They didnt gut the throw cleavers in NW though

[pliant topaz]

they werent included in the quazi video

pretty sure every single thing nerfed is what quazi pointed out in his video

[hazy breach]

I havent seen the quazi video tbf

[hazy breach]

Sounds like the max windwalker one

[pliant topaz]

yeah... like its nice that theyre "listening" but its insanely concerning that the only changes are what influencers are asking them to do

it comes off as like "we dont know how to fix it, well do what ever you say, youre happy now?"

[wind canopy]

Probably just doing it to get back numbers?

[pliant topaz]

i honestly dont know whats going on in wow right now

all my friends and myself are playing other games so idk if wows kinda dead

or its actually fine, i have no idea

[vagrant sinew]

login armin you have a ring to farm

are you doing farm?

[pliant topaz]

yeah im only raid logging at this point

ngl probably wont even farm the ring unless i need it for 11.1

[vagrant sinew]

looks like you will need it for 11.1

.d

if you can trust their bluepost

[pliant topaz]

not like thiiiis

im despairgee LOL

but yeah, i kinda dont know how wows doing right now, ive heards its fine, but also ive heard its dead.

but this is the first time since ive started playing wow that i fully quit m+

[vagrant sinew]

I think people like to exaggerate to prove their point, dont think its that much deader than other seasons

[short radish]

poe2

has killed it faster than usual

[vagrant sinew]

think the dungeon pool helped more

[lilac stag]

At least on NA, it feels more dead than previous tiers. Really feels like no one wants to deal with anything right now alt wise.

Usually alts would get some play

[tribal blade]

it is actually dead on NA

https://raider.io/mythic-plus-character-rankings/season-tww-1/world/all/all here's the leaderboard for M+

there's 5 people on the 1st page who are NA out of 40

9 on 2nd page