subtlety

[swift tinsel]

I have seen stranger things in pugs lol

did a heroic Vault back in DF and a hunter had specced into every single node on their way down their tree and didn't have any points in the botton 3rd of the tree

[hybrid prism]

lmao

[worn cape]

Almost every rogue I see in the wild (either in Dornogal or in M+/raid) seems to be a sin rogue 🥲
I actually get a bit excited when I see another sub rogue

[mint swift]

Jesus i kinda wanna main sub over assa next season

This is so fun

[swift tinsel]

Do it

enjoy the game you're playing

[mint swift]

Its more like

Sub aoe

And assa ST

[hybrid prism]

sub for everything

best spec

come to the dark side

[mint swift]

I played sub for quite a bit

tbh longer than i played assa comp it feels like

[torn island]

Why the fuck is thistle tea getting procced now when I don’t even have it in a macro or on a hot key

[swift tinsel]

it gets consumed when you drop below a certain energy threshold

[torn island]

Why

lol

[swift tinsel]

because that's how it works now

[torn island]

Imm starting to hate this fuckin class lolol

[swift tinsel]

You don't need to play tea

at least in pve

[still trellis]

because apparently people complained about button bloat and this was blizzards idea on solving that

[hazy breach]

Which it mostly did

[still trellis]

well ye i wouldnt know it, i still press tea manually and as sub i just had it macrod to dance

not sure why im not macroing it to shiv

[torn island]

How do I create a macro for my shadow dance combo?

[torn island]

I think it’s crazy that they make you figure it out and then fuck it all up cause people complain they can’t figure it out, at least I break my keyboard behind closed doors

[hazy breach]

Wdym make you figure it out

[turbid saddle]

i mean that change did nothing anyways it might be annoying on assa nowdays since they want it in shiv windows

other specs dont even use tea

[torn island]

Yeah they don’t tell you use this with this cause you took this talent, they just make you figure out the way you’re suppose to maximize the dps

[still trellis]

i meaaaaan maximizing dps is usually what the people do no?

its not like blizzard tells us our rotation

[torn island]

Yeah that’s what I mean lol

I gotta figure this shit out after being yelled at my players cause my dps is too low

[still trellis]

when in doubt, wowhead it out

or just ask for a log review

[swift tinsel]

can always VOD yourself too which is super helpful

[torn island]

Anyone know how to create a macro for my Danse macabre combo?

[swift tinsel]

What do you want it to do

[still trellis]

whats the macro supposed to do

[turbid saddle]

theres no such thing

[torn island]

So I can click it and have 10-12 abilities go off

after their cooldowns

[turbid saddle]

wat

[still trellis]

he means a castsequence

[torn island]

so click I click the macro and procs shadow dance, then I click it again and it cheapshots, and the. Again and shadowtrike etc

[turbid saddle]

unreal

[torn island]

Yes

[swift tinsel]

that's a very bad idea

[still trellis]

dunno, just type /castsequence "insert abilitie here", "another here"

but as haptics said

[swift tinsel]

plus shadow technique refunds can break it

[still trellis]

dumb idea, you wont learn anything

[swift tinsel]

so you either waste a ton of combo points, or it just stops working

[still trellis]

dont think any rogue spec can work with a castsequence macro

assa needs crits, sub has random shadow technique procs, outlaw is well outlaw

[torn island]

Shadow technique procs? Sry

[still trellis]

i shall let the actual sub rogues take over from here

[wind canopy]

Random?

[still trellis]

look its random if you are dumb like me aight

also im not tracking it, which isnt smart, but im only speccing sub for my weekly mists

[torn island]

Ok I get the stores points what are my shadow techniques?

[swift tinsel]

Sub rogue passive ability

[turbid saddle]

ur AA stores cp ur builders use it to give u cp and ur finisnhers use it to get u back to full if at 7

[hazy breach]

Its random, but also not random

[swift tinsel]

stacked deck random iirc

works with Skyfury buff/procced auto attacks as well

[still trellis]

its random, confirmed by green guy, i shall take my leave with a W

[hazy breach]

Its not 28% straightup, its the first 2 auto attacks cant proc it. Then the third one has 50% chance and then fourth hit has 100% chance

And once it procs it resets

Shadowcraft with symbols up makes it so its the second one that has 50% chance and the third has 100% chance before it resets instead

[torn island]

so like 2-4 combo points?

[swift tinsel]

It depends

you can store them as long as you don't spend them

and you generate a lot more during shadow blades because you are filling your combo points with each builder and only spend them when you have enough to fully refill your cp's when you talent into Shadowcraft

[hazy breach]

But ye practically its just random

[mystic ether]

If you have Skadryn and Sacbrood at 639, and all other dungeon trinkets. What would you play on Silken Court? Skadryn being a 2 min feels soooo bad

[hazy breach]

Probably assassination, but ig skardyn + anything

[sharp kernel]

If you have transmitter, it’s a fat burst for your blades

Could do sac and transmitter

[mystic ether]

I don't have any raid trinket, that's my luck

[glass python]

do we know muych about numbers for this circlet thats coming next week?

i havnt seen much of anything 😂

[hazy breach]

It all depends on how much theyre buffing it

Its not worth using right now

[glass python]

eugh i hate that they always offer catch up content nothing new with these releases q.q haha

[hazy breach]

Theyve explicitly said it should be good, its not catchup

It just isnt

[glass python]

😂

[hazy breach]

Just like the ring in dragonflight

[glass python]

yee

[hazy breach]

It was also dogshit

Until they buffed it

[glass python]

good point tbf

[vale pine]

The ring is even if not buffed good for alts

[lilac stag]

What are alts?

[mystic ether]

What do we macro transmitter onto?

[lilac stag]

You don’t

Flag is the least bad option.

[torn island]

Is there an ‘end sequence’ command line ?

[hazy breach]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[hazy breach]

The last line here

[torn island]

Tyty

Doesn’t seem to work :/

[torn island]

Didn’t work 😦

[quaint lodge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tacit aspen]

whAt target count, in and out of SD, should we use shuriken storm? does it get affected by find weakness? as trickster

[hazy breach]

Anything more than 1 outside dance

Never inside dance

[tacit aspen]

like not even for like... 12+ guys?

[hazy breach]

No

[tacit aspen]

is it purely damage or some interaction im not aware of

[hazy breach]

If you storm you wont proc unseen blade

And nimble makes strike do significantly more damage than storm

Because storm and backstab do effectively no damage

[tacit aspen]

right

okay, thank you

how many targets in dance, assuming find weakness is up, before i black powder? ive been doing 5 but never sure what to do if im at 4 targets

[hazy breach]

5

[tacit aspen]

cool, thank you 🙂

[solar thicket]

Mirror or Smoke for m+?

[hazy breach]

You usually live anyway when you feint, so smoke is typically better

But it doesnt matter much

[teal prawn]

If I play DS in keys is it kinda like pre-tww sub?

[short radish]

sorta except very scuffed

since you still need to press eviscerate

and shuriken storm costs more energy

[teal prawn]

Okay so just play trickster

[short radish]

yup

all roads lead to outlaw apparently

[pliant topaz]

surprised they only buffed the direct damage gems or w/e

it would be great if htey knew what they even want the ring to do

[hazy breach]

Tbf the damage effects were bad even for a spec like sub with 18k vers

But bruh who wants the damage procs

[warm marlin]

outlaw

[pliant topaz]

i mean, why does this ring even exist?

if at best its a bit worse than a crafted ring why is it here?

[hazy breach]

Its better now

Just not by a lot

Insane new ring with the buffs!

Windsinger/Thunderlord/Fathomdweller

Wow very pog thanks blizzardman

[short radish]

woah thats huge

cant wait to spend 6 hours farming this

[tribal blade]

you will have your borrowed power and you will enjoy it

[pliant topaz]

thats 3 damage ones?

or stats? i dont even know what the effects are thats how much i care

[hazy breach]

1 damage one

[viral phoenix]

if ur not using vanish on opener (like holding for ansurek root) is it just strike > flag > evisc > backstab to 6+ > rupture > rest of cooldowns?

[hazy breach]

Strike > evis > backstab to 6 > flag > rupture

[viral phoenix]

sounds good

[short radish]

or if you are monkey brain

just strike -> flag-> evis -> sblade+symbol+dance+ss->rupture

thats what i did

fuck pressing backstab to 6

[viral phoenix]

pre patch 11.05 sub rogue

cursed

[tribal blade]

10 mists

SHEEEEEESH

[short radish]

[tribal blade]

it unironically helped watching @hazy breach 's videos

[edgy zenith]

man, I gotta get in a key with an enh doing that dam

that's the hardest part

[tribal blade]

a big thing was any time i had cds everything melted, so it's rough trying to fit in dam while that's happening in a 10

[edgy zenith]

yeah, if there is another competent DPS player in your group, you get very much extra sad in a 10

[tribal blade]

but also they were chain dying on the last part of the dungeon

[edgy zenith]

trickster gang?

[tribal blade]

HELL yeah trickster

[edgy zenith]

haven't really done a lot of trickster keys since BP buff

[tribal blade]

feels so much better than DS

[edgy zenith]

haven't really palyed actually

kindaj ust raid logging

and palying Marvel Rivals

lmao

[tribal blade]

once i got the muscle memory of BPing in dance w/ trickster

the damage is very good

[edgy zenith]

for most of mists you're pressign Evis anyway in a pug 10 lmao

all through maze

[tribal blade]

yeah for the small packs for sure

also 1 phased first boss which super inflates damage

[edgy zenith]

btw has anyone gotten the third sectech in opener in the flag window yet?

i was one global off tonight on Ansurek prog

the rng was nuts

[tribal blade]

i ended first boss at 3.76 mil

[tribal blade]

i come close sometimes

[edgy zenith]

i didn't think ti was possible, but it might be if you literally shadowcraft proc like 5 or 6 times

think it takes 6

[tribal blade]

yeah if you get godlike rng it seems possible

[wide magnet]

why do you do the first evis

before flag

o

slice

[tribal blade]

trickster sub just feels right

it's in a good state now

[twilit phoenix]

I don’t like it

[short radish]

glad we could help

to answer the question you also didn't ask

you also finisher after flag and before shadowblades

[wide magnet]

yurr

.

i just last mained rogue in voti

so it slipped my mind that slice is passively applied now

[wide magnet]

this happens a lot where i just need to say a problem out loud at a vaguely person-shaped object and i figure it out

[short radish]

ahhh yes

rubber ducky debugging

a classic

my duck is called alfred

[wide magnet]

hehe

[round latch]

idk why but when they type ''rouge'' instead of ''rogue'' its tilting me

like

im not a lipstick bro

[wide magnet]

did they stealth fix the shadow techniques latency issue

or did they regular fix it. i dont read patch notes

[tribal blade]

moulin rouge?

[round latch]

yeah idk man

[tribal blade]

we're so sexy

hence rouge

😉

[hybrid prism]

As DS, You BP at 3 or more targets right? Also, how many targets should there be for me to start shuriken storming?

[hybrid prism]

I hate it so much. It’s a normal word and this game is 20 years old. You are reading the world right in front of you and you still spell it wrong?? What is wrong with people???

[tribal blade]

2 or more targets

BP does a LOT of dammy as DS

and start using storm at 2 targets

when you're in dance you want to be using strike on 3 or less targets, so make sure you have the momentum buff up before that

so that BP will do maximum dam

[hybrid prism]

Roger thank you. 🙏

[round latch]

i tend to write their names somewhere,if i see them with open warmode i bury them

[hybrid prism]

This is the way.

[short radish]

i hate that servers are instanced now

my kill on sight lists are rendered moot

[round latch]

true

its not like the good old days u would gank someone until he uninstalls

i had this hunter farmed for an entire week

he feared me so much afterwards he didnt even mark me

[short radish]

dominance status = asserted

best is when they hop on an alt to flame you

even better is when they were the one who started it

[tribal blade]

i have so many screenshots of people reacting to me murdering them in open world pvp

back when i used to pvp

[sinful sluice]

Is ds viable on court?

Has anyone tried it yet

[vale pine]

yes, but more annoying to play

[tribal blade]

it definitely would work, but is it worth it? that's the real question

[plush roost]

As a DS enthusiast, there is absolutely no reason to play it on court over trickster

Its less maintenance, better bursts in a fight with many burst windows, not to mention it makes a cool shwing sound

[tribal blade]

just not needing to deal with the mark alone is enough for trickster to be superior

[sick jackal]

+++

btw i have had this idea so ill put it down here:
what if instead of singular focus we had a talent that spreads our plague damage on our mark targets to aoe(like spatter from assa)
and darkest night did plague damage
hence in m+ hitting darkest night doesnt feel awful

[short radish]

all roads end up leading to cleave

i hate this game

[tribal blade]

so sin would end up having this option too, and they would become insanely busted with it

it's kind of a weird situation with sub and DS where it just doesn't work well

unfortunately

[round latch]

irrelevant but just remembered what movie i was talking like 4-5 days,just came into my mind as a relevant to that french vidoco and brotherhood of the wovles

[tribal blade]

hmmm i'm drawing a blank

[round latch]

Its Solomon Kane(its 4 years later though)

its 2009,the other two are 2005

or something like that

[tribal blade]

OHHHH right yes yes ok i remember now

when we were talking about movies

you mentioned some french movies yeah

we were initially talking about.. pan's labyrinth

[round latch]

yeah they just came into my mind

now ive got one more with jack the ripper(from hell) iirc

[sick jackal]

i mean its balance after that

just nerf spatter with it

[tribal blade]

yes i remember that movie, i watched it when it first came out but i barely remember it

[tribal blade]

i suppose so yeah

[upper narwhal]

Then fate bound would be even more useless

[tribal blade]

my idea for fixing DS would be in part to completely rework the mark

so once you have a target marked it can't lose the mark

and proccing DN is a seperate buff that you don't need to consume to refresh mark on the target

[lilac stag]

Delete DS. Fixed.

[tribal blade]

so in aoe you can legit just completely ignore DN procs if you wanted to

[tribal blade]

or delete DS 😉

[sick jackal]

ill be real 0 clue what fatebound is but maybe balance to fix that

[short radish]

make hero talents only applicable for the one tree they were clearly designed for

[tribal blade]

fatebound is the hero tree that sin and outlaw share

[sick jackal]

is it the flip coin one?

[upper narwhal]

They’ve had an entire season to balance it and its not been touched once, can’t say I trust them to do that

[sick jackal]

i mean balance was shit this season so they most likely did damage control

like furys doing %30 more than everything

or fire mage being overbuffed

then sham was killing everyone

we had a rogue bug with outlaw

so they didnt get to balance for flavour

[tribal blade]

the warrior tuning to compensate for them doing way too much burst aoe was the most hilarious shit show of tuning i've ever seen

the memes of "X class doing too much dam, better nerf warrior" were so good

[sick jackal]

man if blizz reads this take me in balancing please ill work my life

[hoary coyote]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[lilac stag]

They buffed fdk aoe & st when trying to nerf aoe and buff st.

[tribal blade]

didn't they do the same thing to sin

nerf to spatter and buffed/bugfixed tier set

but it just ended up being basically a net positive

slow golf clap

[lilac stag]

imagine getting bug fixes

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/anime-last-stand-als-anime-last-stand-update-anime-last-stand-upd-als-update-gif-2055114662060648899

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/wrong-guy-not-me-danny-gif-19241869

[leaden prairie]

sin got buffed like 3/4 patches in a row while being one of the best spec in m+ and being the best rogue spec ye

[tribal blade]

it's tough being the king

although i honestly think i'm able to do more overall dam in dungeons as sub than sin now

[leaden prairie]

Well

You might suck at sin or

No offense

[lilac stag]

How does one suck at assa

[tribal blade]

haha nah that's fair, i don't play it to it's full potential

[leaden prairie]

I mean

Don't say that when sub is probably even more straight forward than assa in m+ cuh

[mint swift]

Yea

[tribal blade]

i do pretty good dam as sin, but lately the damage i've been able to get out of sub has been really good

[mint swift]

I’m with Zack on this one

[leaden prairie]

No k

Just zac

[mint swift]

Zak

Gotcha

;)

[short radish]

im with zachary on this one as well

[leaden prairie]

I can accept zach

Aswell

[leaden prairie]

It's ie for me actually

Not y

[mint swift]

Zacie?

Or zackie

[leaden prairie]

Zacharie

[short radish]

zaciery

[mint swift]

Zac

Dude I haven’t used z this much in ages it’s stopped looking like a letter

But yea I’ve been ofspeccing sub lately for fun and I wish I had good stats for it

As I said yesterday maining it next season could be good
Would mean I don’t have dog water ST

[lilac stag]

https://youtu.be/pDH3AoOQzE0?si=VWpfSMe9Ayd_fI2N

[still trellis]

ye, unless DS sub becomes the thing

trickster is fun

i dont wanna touch DS really tho

[round latch]

dw fam,we got another like 3-4 months to decide if DS or Trickster better

on an island that u cant rly fly at the start

and grinding a ring that kinda sucks

[still trellis]

all good, they will overbuff the ring so its mandatory for every class and spec

[round latch]

they have to,its underwhelming

else im not stepping there

gonna uninstall and buy poe 2

[still trellis]

i would love it if they didnt buff the ring tbh

i could ignore a whole zone

[round latch]

the zone alone isnt that bad tbh

[mint swift]

Holy shit it’s @leaden prairie ?

[mint swift]

[mint swift]

I’m super hyped for the island

BFA had

[round latch]

ild relax a bit if i were you 😄

[mint swift]

Such a nice atmosphere in the zones

[round latch]

played like a week on ptr

wasnt like something rly special

[mint swift]

Meh well

I started in BfA

[round latch]

basicly a new forbiden reach

[mint swift]

So it’s a blast from the past for me

[tepid trellis]

condolences

[round latch]

i played eveyr single day on bfa

[mint swift]

Cause it was 6 years ago

[round latch]

it was amazing for me

outlaw was a banger

[mint swift]

Which is nearly 1/3rd of my life

So it was quite a bit ago for me

[mint swift]

I remember playing outlaw during it too

[tepid trellis]

#outlaw rats, go over there

[round latch]

says the mustelidae lover

pretty ironic

[tepid trellis]

the what now?

[mint swift]

That’s rich comping from the dude with a rodent as their pfp

[leaden prairie]

i mean i do think sub have been slept on for a long time in m+, usually is the case for sub, like even before the last set of buffs im quite convinced sub can match/do better than outlaw, and outlaw is played at very high level already cause there is always outlaw fanatics

[mint swift]

Omg sap similar thoughts

[mint swift]

I mean

Rogue is good in M+

Like as a general thing from what I’ve seen

[tribal blade]

just from seeing some outlaw keys i suspect sub can do more overall

[leaden prairie]

Idk i think it's ok

The issue with rogue in m+

[tribal blade]

i watched squish and wox's ara the other night

[leaden prairie]

Is that it doesn't bring shit

Other than damage

[tribal blade]

shroud is the big thing

[mint swift]

I mean

[leaden prairie]

Like you aren't really happy when you have a rogue in group

[mint swift]

Can’t outlaw technically do Uber high

[leaden prairie]

It's tanky and that's about. It

[mint swift]

Like more than assa

[leaden prairie]

Why

[mint swift]

If you get like coin flips that hit 30+ streaks

Technically

[leaden prairie]

What

[mint swift]

Like 30 + flips on the same side in a row constantly

Technically

Literally like
1 in a trillion

[tribal blade]

is that what happened to casual when he was running with kirapal

[leaden prairie]

You are mega yapping rn no cap

[mint swift]

But unless there is a cap idk about

Technically could outlaw theoretically do more

[tribal blade]

and he either left them or got booted

[mint swift]

Yes I know

It won’t happen but in some dream scenario it could

[leaden prairie]

Anyway all I'm saying is

There is a lot of specs in the game

[tepid trellis]

raccoons arent rodents

[leaden prairie]

That bring more stuffs than rogue

[tepid trellis]

-.-

[leaden prairie]

Outside of mage

Damage*

Like even fdk

Tankier than rogue

Grips

[tribal blade]

amz

[leaden prairie]

Etc

Shaman had infinite util

Mage have AOE shield

[mint swift]

Wait really

[leaden prairie]

Decurse dispell

And is also mega tanky

Warrior is mostly shit but there is a reason warrior never exist

[tribal blade]

what if we get back aoe kidney

[mint swift]

There was aoe kidney?

[tribal blade]

it was in the pipline for sub

[mint swift]

That sounds amazing

[tribal blade]

but got axed

[mint swift]

Holy fuck

[tepid trellis]

Raccoons are mammals belonging to the order Carnivora and the family Procyonidae

[mint swift]

Aoe 8 second stun X)

[tribal blade]

got to use it on the ptr, it was pretty crazy

[mint swift]

Oh ok
They just act like disgusting rodents is all

Mb

[tepid trellis]

HUH?

[tribal blade]

damn you're about to incur some wrath

[leaden prairie]

idk

[tepid trellis]

lilbro needs to know what rodents are

raccs just mind their own business

[leaden prairie]

idk what rogue needs in m+ to feel like you bring more than damage

its also cool to have st ccs but its mostly useless

but its a rare niche

[tribal blade]

people still say rogue bringing shroud is unfair

[leaden prairie]

Shroud is cool but it's useless

[lilac stag]

People just don’t like the class. Nothing is going to fix that.

[leaden prairie]

Like you never use shroud

[tribal blade]

it's mostly useless in situations yeah

[leaden prairie]

I'm saying it doesn't bring shit tho

[tribal blade]

also priest has basically no cd shroud

[leaden prairie]

You can Skip eye guys with shroud distract

[mint swift]

I mean aoe silence can be nice but that’s Assa only

[leaden prairie]

That you can't skip with soothe

[lilac stag]

DR, Slower cast time, aoe blind. Long stun. It brings shit.

[leaden prairie]

And that also is not really useful when prot pal also does the same shit on pull

Wasting most of your thing

[lilac stag]

is it as critical as other shit?

[leaden prairie]

You don't play slow cast time you play 3% dr, which half the specs in the game bring aswell

Be it Dr or more hp

[lilac stag]

and half don’t

[mint swift]

Fair imo in pugs IW is god tier

[lilac stag]

Grass always greener

[leaden prairie]

I'm just giving reasons why rogue isn't that popular in m+ while doing damage lol

[lilac stag]

stop playing rogue

[leaden prairie]

It just doesn't bring anything

[mint swift]

When dps don’t know what a kick is and a healer forgets where he put his CDs
And the tank is using a route to get 124%

[lilac stag]

Like everyone else

[leaden prairie]

It's a fact lol

You aren't happy when you have a rogue

Cause they don't do shit

Just damage

[upper narwhal]

You mean other than IW and atrophic?

[alpine wraith]

they are an active liability in some weeks like the dispel one or aoe cc one

[lilac stag]

Those don’t count. Keep up.

[upper narwhal]

Yeah fuck these affixes can’t do shit with them

[leaden prairie]

iw is assa specific, and is mostly useless when prot pal does the exact same thing, also cost damage most high key pushers dont even end up taking it

[alpine wraith]

you can aoe blind once ever so often

[lilac stag]

maybe, just maybe, realize m+ is shit.

[honest saddle]

I think a mass dispel would solve the issue entirely. If cloak was aoe like mass dispel. It actually would solve a shit ton of problems in raid as well

[upper narwhal]

AoE cloak would be bonkers

[leaden prairie]

im just speaking from experience, people prefer playing with other specs given similar damage

other classes just bring more

[lilac stag]

6-7 specs will always dominate. The rest just looking for vault crumbs

[upper narwhal]

Man I’m 636 and struggle to get groups when it’s dispel affix

[mint swift]

Imagine you use cloak it applies to everyone

Holy shit

[alpine wraith]

even when dmg is ok like with assa rogue other spec get sinergy

and end up stronger anyway

[honest saddle]

you're welcome

[leaden prairie]

thats not even waht im talking about dude

idk

[mint swift]

Or play Aug

Guaranteed group spot every single season

[alpine wraith]

aug s a scourge

[mint swift]

It is

[short radish]

delete aug

[honest saddle]

aug is fine, it just needs to be dog shit simple and bad.

[lilac stag]

you actually are. Plenty of specs have utility issues. So you get a wonderful meta balance based on whatever shit blizzard doesn’t finish cooking in m+

[leaden prairie]

no im not

you cant read or what

[lilac stag]

good talk.

[leaden prairie]

ye

[lilac stag]

rogue bad.

[leaden prairie]

cba with people that cant read idk

[mint swift]

Guys just fucking kiss each other and stop arguing

[lilac stag]

No utility.

[leaden prairie]

i have to repeat myself 40 times

just cause tyou refuse to read

im not going to continue

[honest saddle]

I think a large issue

is that rogues are the utility

meaning that we have everything for ourselves

but not much for the group

we are more personally versatile than most classes

but lack group synergy that really makes a difference

[upper narwhal]

No real AoE cc, no group defensives, rarely is shroud useful

No dispel

No offhealing

[honest saddle]

no self healing really either

our self healing is very poor

[mint swift]

I remember someone here saying ele shaman had better personal defensives than rogue

[short radish]

blizzard actually actively makes shroud pointless now

[mint swift]

Gave me a chuckle

[short radish]

they watch ppl playing beta

check where they invis pot/shroud

then insta put eyes

[mint swift]

Didn’t they say they wanted to not have a class you needed to bring

Or smth

[leaden prairie]

And get

Yet

[mint swift]

Now look at Aug

[leaden prairie]

Aug been brought

[mint swift]

Autocorrect

[leaden prairie]

In 90% of high keys

Since it's creation

[short radish]

dont worry im sure next season they will figure out how to make people not force aug

[leaden prairie]

Don't buff tank and heal

[upper narwhal]

No bloodlust

No CR

[honest saddle]

there are only two answers for aug, one of which isn't possible

delete the spec or completely rework it

[leaden prairie]

And actually do less damage than a DPS I swear

[short radish]

delete aug

[mint swift]

Delete evoker

[leaden prairie]

Just make it do shit damage

Xd halp

[honest saddle]

it needs to be bad

it has to be bad

otherwise its broken

you should only bring it if it makes something livable that is otherwise not livable

[upper narwhal]

It’s bad in raid now and still busted in m+

[mint swift]

I just want arms warrior to be Uber S tier broken in one season

[honest saddle]

to be fair, it's not bad in raid

it's just not great

[short radish]

its pretty shit in raid

you bring for spatial or something

but its negative dps atm

[honest saddle]

how would anyone know

[upper narwhal]

It exists to push ovinax adds

[leaden prairie]

i hate how aug just accentuate meta by a shitton> if aug is in a comp with meta specs that are doing op damage aug is doing op damage aswell, and aug by defniition is just op cause you have util + tnakyness etc, but then you cant bring aug with off meta dps cause it will do less dps than with meta comps, accentuating the gap gg

[honest saddle]

every hook is broken on logs

so how do we know where it really stands

liquid is the closest thing we have to the truth, and max said its decent but not great

[mint swift]

Ehhh

I prefer solid

But both are better than gas

[honest saddle]

P L A S M A

[mint swift]

Heard plasma is making an al

Shut up

You beat me to it

[upper narwhal]

That’s with the insane optimisations that Liquid do for Aug, means it’s bad for everyone else

[short radish]

i hate it here

[mint swift]

:(

https://tenor.com/view/team-plasma-pokemon-gif-6622918080455704229

[honest saddle]

hence, why aug needs a complete rework

[upper narwhal]

The delete key is right there tho

[honest saddle]

I think 90% of wow players would enjoy the delete key

I know even our aug players would say thank fucking god

ITS FINALLY OVER

[short radish]

yeah

find me an aug that acutally enjoys playing aug

and isnt forced to play it

[honest saddle]

https://tenor.com/view/askers-where-who-gif-24612724

[short radish]

blizzard sees everyone playing aug in keys and raid

and thinks

WOW THIS IS SUCCESS

EVERYONE LOVES THEM

WORKING GREAT AND AS INTENDED

no fucking shit when you force it

[mint swift]

I mean

There are some people

Have a high push friend that I belive enjoys playing it

Could ask

[leaden prairie]

also i cant play outlaw with aug so another reason for it to be gone

[tepid trellis]

keep it

[short radish]

something something stockholmsyndrome

[leaden prairie]

[honest saddle]

I don't believe anyone askd the RODENT

[leaden prairie]

fuck the rodent

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/raccoon-retreat-withdraw-bed-hide-gif-18813480

[short radish]

no do not do that

[honest saddle]

ok, fine, the thing is pretty cute.

[leaden prairie]

watch me

[short radish]

no i will not

[honest saddle]

believe thats against the law in MOST countries, Zac

[short radish]

dont make us call you zack

or zak

[honest saddle]

Zacro moving to Middle East as we speak to get away with it.

[short radish]

he cant just keep getting away with it!

[mint swift]

Why not

[leaden prairie]

wel lthere is a few reasons

[honest saddle]

aug favors burst classes

[leaden prairie]

first of all

[honest saddle]

not straightline dam

[mint swift]

Just give outlaw a shotgun

Make their pistol shot like one of those lever action shotguns and make it aoe

Or make outlaw like
1 melee slot
1 ranges slot

[round latch]

i take back what i said earlier,been searching the exact racoon classification and it comes out they arent mustelids,they are procyonidae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raccoon

[honest saddle]

11 lbs

or 57 lbs

basically the same thing...

imagine a 60 lb coon

[leaden prairie]

first of all aug giving stats is just bad for outlaw cause we seem to suck with stats, i think the cd thing is mostly gone now cause they have high uptime on everything, but still, i take 2 identical keys where i play assa then outlaw, even if i do more dps as outlaw i give the aug less dps

[honest saddle]

its basically a bear

[leaden prairie]

Then you have spymaster Aug

[tepid trellis]

i literally wrote that like 2min after

[leaden prairie]

Which even tho Aug s are playing non cd builds

It still favor CDs around spymaster

And then you have the issue of

If you have a triple DPS comp

You have a hard pack

You have 2 DPS sending cds + an outlaw

Pack dies

[round latch]

i was tabbed searching man,sorry didnt read,my curiosity kicked in

[leaden prairie]

With outlaw Aug you have 1.5 DPS sending cds + outlaw

Pack doesn't die

Your fault you were playing outlaw

[mint swift]

Mehhh I feel like you can still pump on outlaw

[leaden prairie]

So ye idk I think that's mostly all the reasons outlaw doesn't work with Aug

I can pump on outlaw

[honest saddle]

on like a normal 5-8 mob pack, what is outlaw doing damage wise?

[leaden prairie]

It still is worse

Also when I play outlaw I just reduce the damage of others

[honest saddle]

3 mill?

[leaden prairie]

Usually

[leaden prairie]

Idk depends

[tepid trellis]

outlaw can do big dam. but it just doesent really help with timing the keys

[leaden prairie]

But like look

You have a hard pack right

You send all 2 mins

Pack dies in 30 s

[tepid trellis]

burst profile reigns supreme, as god intented it

[leaden prairie]

Everyone is at 4 mil dps

You have outlaw

Pack takes 1 min

Everyone is at 3 mil DPS at end of pack

You can even be topping the pack as outlaw

But that doesn't mean you are doing good tho

The pack took more time

Tank died cause he had to survive 30 more sec

[honest saddle]

yah, this makes the most sense

its not even that outlaw does bad dam

[leaden prairie]

And your other DPS are doing less damage

[honest saddle]

it makes burst classes worse

[leaden prairie]

And then there is just the issue of Aug not giving as much DPS to outlaw as other specs cuase stats etc idk

[leaden prairie]

Ye and the damage you do is not enough to compensate that usually

• it not working with Aug it's kinda weird

I did end up doing 17 cot as outlaw

Cause we thought it was worth it

[mint swift]

Fuck that

CoT

[leaden prairie]

Even with Aug

[mint swift]

Subs the best pick there right

Over Assa?

[leaden prairie]

Cause outlaw blast third boss and outlaw does way more st etc

[leaden prairie]

Ye probably

[hazy breach]

Im not really disagreeing with you but everytime ive watched any of the high key streamers try sub for a key/end of nw/mist first boss theyre always doing some stuff wrong

[leaden prairie]

Well that's normal tho isn't it

Do 1000 keys as assa

Do 3 as sub

I'm not saying sub is easy

I'm just saying it's not really fair

From sub pov

To say assa is easy

When it's basically the same shit idk

[tepid trellis]

sub hardest spec, cuz i say so, and i wanna feel good about myself

[leaden prairie]

Sin probably has more nuances in m+

[tepid trellis]

how bout that

[honest saddle]

I mean sub requires so much planning compared to sin or outlaw in keys

[leaden prairie]

Really?

Why

[honest saddle]

shorter cd usage

with heavy burst

outlaw is all gas no brakes

[leaden prairie]

no you said sin

of course against outlaw

outlaw plans nothing

[tepid trellis]

charge systems will always be more intricate for planning

[honest saddle]

I mean sin is rinse and repeat

yeah

exactly

[tepid trellis]

than a normal straight set of cds

[leaden prairie]

sure

[honest saddle]

there isnt anything you can even plan with sin or outlaw

you just cd

[leaden prairie]

you mostly just cd as sub aswell idk

just the out of cd part

has more things

but idk if in keys i would call thta planning either no?

its just playing the spec

[round latch]

in terms of actual brain power its Sub>Sin>Outlaw right now

[tepid trellis]

dunno bout that

[round latch]

i do

[tepid trellis]

really depends on the content

[round latch]

in m+ sin is harder than outlaw

sub just needs to plan constantly and very punishing

[honest saddle]

I mean, I think sin has some nuance with bleeds and refreshes

[round latch]

u do no dmg if u dont buff ur stuff

[tepid trellis]

Imo the hardest of the 3 specs to minmax is outlaw

[round latch]

💀

[honest saddle]

Really?

[round latch]

doubt it

[tepid trellis]

to reach the ceiling on outlaw compared to the other two

yes

[honest saddle]

I mean to reach the cieling vs reaching the banniter of the cieling

as outlaw

the bannister is really brainless

[tepid trellis]

minmax means minmax

not keving doing +10s

and just pressing shit

[round latch]

how would it be harder than minmaxing ur bleeds as sin

idk

[leaden prairie]

I think outlaw can be straightforward to learn

Its just hard to play then

[tepid trellis]

thats the thing sap

you dont

[leaden prairie]

Cause of how fast etc idk

[tepid trellis]

you put up 5 ruptures

and thats it

you are done

[round latch]

u press more garrots and overlap bleeds with vanish my man

[tepid trellis]

you dont have breakpoints like you used to or having to snipe mobs for energy

[void hound]

this is 100% true

[tepid trellis]

having to garrote 3times when you vanish

is not something special

[honest saddle]

especially

when even the best sin

just garrote the same target

they dont even target swap

[round latch]

its not 3,its also manual to bleed stuff

[tepid trellis]

you dont garrote

outside of that

on AoE

so

[void hound]

think about it, on a 0,8 gcd and a dynamic rotation, landing the 100% best global every time is way harder than sub or sin

[tepid trellis]

nobody plays any spec perfect

[honest saddle]

it's actually near impossible with in game lag

[tepid trellis]

there is to much dynamics going on in wow

[round latch]

it depends the number of targets my man u can garx2 rup x2 and then gar x2 again before sending anything,then repeat while doing manual bleeds as well

minmax is stupid in sin

[tepid trellis]

YOU DONT GARROTE

on AoE

[leaden prairie]

Spell queue windows does a good job at making lag not a thing tho

[tepid trellis]

without vanish

unless

you wanna

do more prio dmg

it is not worth it

garrote is the most useless shit

[round latch]

yes u wanna vanish on aoe and gar u manual that,thats what im saying

[tepid trellis]

outside of vanish windows

[honest saddle]

I find that the combo point refresh on bte is a bit slow in game sometimes, and you are using the audio que to be optimal. that's my main complain with outlaw

[tepid trellis]

bro

i cant

[round latch]

..

[tepid trellis]

having to tab target during a pack for garrote is not a minmax

when you vanish

[leaden prairie]

Hm

[tepid trellis]

its basic assa gameplay since subterfuge became a thing

[leaden prairie]

Ace is instant

It's on sub that's it's bugged

I never ever munch my ace procs

[honest saddle]

I use a custom cp wa. I wonder if it's slower than the in game default CP ui one

[leaden prairie]

Well I also use a wa idk

Like 99% of people

[mint swift]

Guys

[honest saddle]

it's rare thatI eat one, but it does happen

[mint swift]

Bandage rogue is the hardest rogue spec

[leaden prairie]

I might eat one once every 10 hours if I'm not in the zone

And then I want to kill myself

[void hound]

sin aoe would be harder if you actually had to multi dot to do damage

[leaden prairie]

Wouldn't call that an issue tho

[mint swift]

Assa aoe would be hard with single target level energy

[honest saddle]

would be miserable to play if that was the case

MISERABLE

[void hound]

i dont mind the current iteration

[tepid trellis]

i do

[void hound]

of sin? why is that

[tepid trellis]

bring back bleed AoE assa

[void hound]

i mean yeah

[tepid trellis]

fuck spatter

[void hound]

sin being a real dot class would be cooler

[tepid trellis]

fuck nimble

[void hound]

but what we have now, i dont hate it

[honest saddle]

make BFA assassination great again

[tepid trellis]

back when garrote / rupture did dmg

[leaden prairie]

I think ic is weird

[tepid trellis]

instead of just being an energy funnel

[void hound]

seems likes the ship sailed on dots being a big dmg contributor so

[leaden prairie]

If you don't like spreading dots

Why are you playing assa

[honest saddle]

the problem stealthi is that back when bleeds and dots mattered

sin was bad at aoe

[leaden prairie]

Assa aoe is assa st now

It's weird

[tepid trellis]

truer words have not been spoken by zac

[mint swift]

Isn’t that like

[tepid trellis]

besides that time you flamed zeross

[mint swift]

All 3 rogue specs sort of

[tepid trellis]

that was true as well

[mint swift]

To some degree

[void hound]

thats the problem

[tepid trellis]

trickster sub yeah

[mint swift]

Just 3 different flavours of blade flurry

[tepid trellis]

Blade flurry has unironically ruined the game

[leaden prairie]

Well ye but

Outlaw is made that way

Sub idk fuck sub

[honest saddle]

unless im remembering wrong, before caustic, sin was historically pretty bad at aoe, and pretty great at 2-3 target cleave

[leaden prairie]

But sin isn't supposed to be that way

Sin is supposed to spread bleeds

[mint swift]

Also zac (got it right this time)
What do you think of an outlaw idea that puts much more focus on the hybrid gun/sword thing

[honest saddle]

isn't the issue that without caustic the only way sin could do aoe was with bleed spreading

and in m+ with 10+ packs

how do you do that without aoe bleed spreading

[void hound]

thats what crimson tempest and IC was for

[honest saddle]

yeah

but then you do that

[leaden prairie]

I like guns

I want more guns

[mint swift]

Yea

[honest saddle]

and have nothing to do the rest of the pull if all you do is crimson and IC

[leaden prairie]

But we already have so much fun focus

How do you even get more right

[mint swift]

Like as I said in outlaw chat, having like
1 gun slot and 1 sword slot

Sounds fun

[honest saddle]

I think sin could be way more fun if you somehow fished for poison bomb procs and poison bomb had charges

[mint swift]

And much more emphasis on your pistol shot like idk
Make it so it can ricochet or something
Or put a dot on things
Or make main gauche just cause you to do a weak pistol shot

[leaden prairie]

Not for gearing

It's already annoying enough

And I wish outlaw could just go double dagger

[mint swift]

Fair

[leaden prairie]

So I could play it in raid

[mint swift]

Meh but the idea is cool imo

[leaden prairie]

Without having to troll my crafts

[honest saddle]

dagger for outlaw seems fine

[mint swift]

I just want more emphasis on the guns

[void hound]

i think the reason we got into this situation is because blizzard caved to player demands of every spec having to be viable in every situation

[honest saddle]

the daggers in raid need to have intellect and agi on them. It's so fucking stupid that they don't

[leaden prairie]

Or dagger main hand at least

[leaden prairie]

Well sure

Via gameplay tho

Not gearing?

[mint swift]

Yea not gearing

Gameplay wise

And tbh you’d stil have only 1 sword

Not 2 swords and a gun a lot

*slot

[honest saddle]

so if outlaw had 1 sword / dagger and 1 gun

wouldnt it be an issue

when every hunter got weapons before you

in raid

and would also force blizz to always make guns and not bows

seems logistically bad

is there any other class in the game that uses an ability like pistol shot

[mint swift]

Meh
It’s just an idea gameplay wise

[honest saddle]

that focuses on a weapon

that they don't have equipped

where does the pistol even come from?

[mint swift]

Surv hunter?

Or did they remove serpent sting

[honest saddle]

well they do traps and shit

that counts imo

and grenades etc

they dont have those

so I think thats a good example

[mint swift]

Yea

[honest saddle]

think all hunters have explosive shot

[mint swift]

But bombs aren’t a weapon slot

Imagine lol

[honest saddle]

yeah, but you were right

they have tranq shot

[hazy breach]

Its also really weird now that BP actually does damage

[honest saddle]

explosive shot etc

[hazy breach]

Nimble feels so odd

[honest saddle]

were always going to be playing the "use your aoe nimble"

unless 5+ targets, then use your other aoe

and depending on tuning

its just going to be 5,6,7,8,9,10 targets

its stupid

[jaunty umbra]

nimble sucks ass

[honest saddle]

nimble just needs to be much stronger

so that you never bp

or make bp so bad you dont use it

and then with DS you buff bp in the tree bigly

and make it good there

[tepid trellis]

eh have BP baseline be good

so the class has playable AoE outside of max lvl

[honest saddle]

isn't that kind of where we are now?

[tepid trellis]

just have nimble node nerf the fuck out it

so it doesent hurt the leveling experience more than it already sucks

[honest saddle]

I dont know that weve ever had a talent that nerfs another talent

surely we have

but that would be the simplest solution

have nimble flurry replace BP entirely

it's just fucked. there really is no elegant solution

[leaden prairie]

Well mm literally stole an outlaw talent

[hazy breach]

Most of their aoe also comes from Bleak powder

[leaden prairie]

Wtf no wae

But is it that bad tho

Like that talent is litteraly the same

Same name same effect same icon

[mint swift]

BM withering fire feels amazing with BP

[tribal blade]

you just blew my mind

i thought i was losing my mind when i was watching banshers do a BM key and could hear the BP sound

[mint swift]

Yea BP is insane

[remote shuttle]

Well -3.6% boss damage debuff and TS disabling parry is not that bad bud

Well -3.6% boss damage debuff and TS disabling parry is not that bad bud

[hazy breach]

He was moreso talking about dungeons

Where parry doesnt exist for the most part

[remote shuttle]

Fair, but still atrophic is a good one

[leaden prairie]

Is it

It doesn't work on everything and it's only 3%

Aug bring 5% HP, priest 5% HP, paladin 3% dr

And then a shit ton of specs have actual usefull AOE defensives

[hazy breach]

Aug is 2% now

[leaden prairie]

What matters usually in dungeons

High keys of course

[hazy breach]

Its obv higher with their wall up

[leaden prairie]

Is what défensives you can assign to different mechanics

3% Dr is frankly uselsss

You would rather have 30% for a certain mech

[alpine wraith]

scalecommander brings it up to 4 again or talents i think?

[leaden prairie]

But ye I was talking about dungeons anyway

Rogue raid utility is alright

It's just that you lack everything that's needed for m+

Battle rez, lust, dispell, decurse, poison dispell, AOE cc etc etc

[hazy breach]

It would prob be fine

If there wasnt mobs seeing invis in 99.99999% of packs

So we could actually use shroud

[leaden prairie]

Maybe

Idk

Most mobs with eyes you can still shroud

With distract

But I do think it's annoying that they do that ye

[tribal blade]

btw did you end up fixing the sound for your recording @hazy breach

for future videos

[hazy breach]

Yes

[tribal blade]

hell yeah

[hazy breach]

I mean the sound was working, i just accidently had enabled my unfiltered mic

[tribal blade]

ahhh gotcha

[remote shuttle]

Well with vanish u can skip some boss mechanics in dungeons... Also i think 3,6% damage reduction is like dudu 3% versa... Versa is also damage bonus but as dr atrophic doubles it

Also trick helpa tanka keeping aggro in m+

I mean... We are not naked in dungeon as utilities.... But our utilities are probably more difficult to understand for non rogue users... At least more than a flat 5% att power like warrior

I find myself to remind ppl playing with me everyday that we have atrophic... Cuz they seems to forget it in a few days 🤣

[hollow spear]

Can't find Wax in the sim options. Do we prefer 2x Whetstone or do we go Wax + Whetstone for ST?

[hazy breach]

Whetstones

[leaden prairie]

I mean the only real thing you coukd think off still was atro loll

Other specs have stuffs like acro and way more is my point

That's why even when rogue is that good as it is rn

It's not as played as it should

And mostly played by one tricks anyway

[wheat edge]

is this something you would use? looking through the wowhead guide trying to learn a bit of sub

[hollow spear]

Not sure if it's recommended, but I use that for my opener 😄

[vestal escarp]

Absolutely not

[remote shuttle]

Ye i see ur point bud, but still i think real problem is lot of ppl thinking we have no utility, when we have some, maybe not the bests in game but some is not zero 😂

[leaden prairie]

Idk, it's a liability to have a rogue in your group utility wise

You have to compensate with real specs

Not the opposite

[vestal escarp]

The foreign concept of glass cannon

Foreign to blizz

[vale pine]

you mean because they don't provide a strong raid buff, battle ress or bloodlust?

[charred kestrel]

Or multiple forms of aoe* cc

[vale pine]

we have a lot of small utility stuff, but probably correct that each does not individually beat strong utility

[plush roost]

???

We have the best utilit

Speed shroud

[vale pine]

oh correct, you saw only sub rogues in mdi as a result

[leaden prairie]

Rogue just dont have any group utility yes