subtlety

[lucid jackal]

theres no other place to really use cloak thats useful

[edgy zenith]

vanishing the first root breaks?

not using vanish in opener?

[lucid jackal]

yeh

[edgy zenith]

hmm

[lucid jackal]

realistically u probs could just break it with damage since its still the opener but

[tepid trellis]

can also just kill first

[lucid jackal]

vanish doesn't do much

[edgy zenith]

we pulled it a couple times and seems like the first set just died

[tepid trellis]

so much dmg going

they insta die

[edgy zenith]

ye

[lucid jackal]

sure then yeh

[edgy zenith]

should only be 3 root sets, yeah?

so kill > cloak > something (gnome/freedom)

err, third roots get blasted

by our CDs

no?

[lucid jackal]

Yeh

3rd dies

4th u vanish

[edgy zenith]

for vanish

do you have to vanish before you get root debuff

or

like circles

[lucid jackal]

U can technically do it before but just do it as u get rooted

More consistent

[edgy zenith]

so right before you actually get rooted, vanish

can I vanish strike then root timing expires

[lucid jackal]

U can but u can also just do it after u get rooted

[edgy zenith]

or do I have to be "stealthed" while the circle goes off

oh

it removes the root

[lucid jackal]

Vanish cleanses roots and also grants an immunity to roots for a few seconds

It's either 1 or 3

Closer to 1 I think

[edgy zenith]

huh

never knew

[lucid jackal]

I've always done it after getting rooted so

[edgy zenith]

mini spiders in p3, do they normally die fast af? or do I need to pad

guild by guild basis?

or normally fast

[pliant topaz]

pretty sure u dont get 4th anymore

it legit dies, cloack, dies

then intermission

[alpine wraith]

you need to get rooted before vanishing yes

[upbeat escarp]

Is DS a better angle now for Ansurek you guys think?

[alpine wraith]

depends on what you want the ST dmg can be higher

[wooden light]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[cursive vapor]

is it really worth to use cold blood with second tec? or just a small difference? cause if its big difference ima delete the macro

[alpine wraith]

not much of a diff

it is more of a thing in trickster too because of flawless

than on deathstalker

[sly shore]

I just changed my bind that was SnD to Solo SecTech

so now I have both with and without CB bound

[alpine wraith]

i always had 2 just in case

[cursive vapor]

ye im on trickster atm gonna use that ig

[tawny river]

Feint does work on wrest. Here’s me getting 50+% DR on first wrest

@edgy zenith

[alpine wraith]

yea feint has always worked on wrest

[fathom gazelle]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[brisk onyx]

Is range of RS the same as IC?

[alpine wraith]

it is lower

[brisk onyx]

No wonder I always feel that the range of RS is very small. I thought it was my illusion.

[tribal blade]

it's pretty bad

it used to be really nice with acro, now it's awful

[toxic knoll]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[bleak vessel]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[mint swift]

How’s sub in M+ and raid
Both dps wise and feel wise atm

[tribal blade]

better on both metrics

[mint swift]

Better than what?

Or just better than before

[tribal blade]

better than before the anniversary rework

raid dps wise sub is up there

with the big boys

and M+ sub is doing much, much better

not a troll spec to play in keys anymore

[mint swift]

Fair

[haughty mural]

prophet do you still play trickster or full DS now ?

[mint swift]

I’m still too stupid to play it in M+ I feel

[tribal blade]

i stopped pushing keys so i'm just play w/e i feel like in 10s

and progging court atm so i'm playing trickster for that

right now i'm trying out playing DS with tea instead of CB

in keys

[mint swift]

Like rn I play Assa, 3K rating

Sub could be fun to try but isn’t it like

Uber difficult

[cursive vapor]

just practice and learning

[tribal blade]

it's not a simple spec for sure, but it's nowhere near as hard as before when we were playing dust

the big curve i can forsee fucking people up who are newer to sub and want to use it for keys is the aoe rotation

[cursive vapor]

im also learning this spec again and i really enjoy it

[tribal blade]

because sub right now has 3 different aoe rotations across both hero talent trees

i main sub and it still throws me off sometimes swapping between the trees

[mint swift]

Fair

I think if I get CD manegment it should be fine

[haughty mural]

how did it fare ?

[mint swift]

But the problem is I’m geared for Assa and play Assa

[haughty mural]

my first ds trys after the patch were horrible

so went back to trickster

[tribal blade]

it feels a lot better for lower keys at least, because everything dies so fast it feels troll not being able to fill every gcd

[haughty mural]

but planning to try ds again some time this week

[tribal blade]

on higher keys you can have dead gcds just fine and pump

[haughty mural]

fair point

i think kush just did a +16 siege with tea earlier iirc

but he is a different animal anyway (positive way)

[tribal blade]

he's playing DS tea and DB yeah

[haughty mural]

oh even DB

hmm .. dunno if i wanna play w/o rotten and third sod right now tbh

[tribal blade]

it does a lot more aoe

but it feels like ass to play honestly

maybe i'll give it a try again

[haughty mural]

oh it does more for sure

[vale pine]

i like trickster in general more

even if its more finicky

[tribal blade]

i think trickster fits sub really well

i just wish it didn't have 2 different aoe rotations atm

[haughty mural]

i think i will like trickster more too - but i've yet to play good with "new" ds in a key to really tell

[haughty mural]

could probably be more refreshing/engaging long term

or to get more people in here

[tribal blade]

the big issue i've had is i'm not doing high keys anymore, so trying to test DS and trickster with the buffs in 10s with groups doing wack stuff

is hard

tanks doing incredibly dumb things compared to 14-15s haha

[tribal blade]

to me it feels a bit weird

maybe it's just me

the way they could smooth out trickster is make it so unseen blade can proc off storm

not just so you don't have to cast stab in aoe, but also you can storm in high target counts in dance and be able to proc coup and spread FW

[haughty mural]

yea you are not wrong

its trying to merge both styles together right now

the bp and the cleave style

[crisp cradle]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tribal blade]

yeah it feels a little awkward to me right now

i can imagine it's a lot for newer sub players to take in

[haughty mural]

agreed

[mint swift]

Fair

I could try some sub for fun

Is the base rota easy :)

I played it at the start of the expac

Rn I’m mass stacked in crit and mast with a bit of haste

[alpine wraith]

trickster is easier

you can ignore the bp thingies at the beginning

and just catch them later

[odd knoll]

Is there any minimum haste that sub requires to play?

[alpine wraith]

the less the better

[mint swift]

KK

I remember it being like

You start in stealth and SS
You use SS in aoe, if no stealth Shuriken storm. Evic as your aoe finisher. SD is like
Use flag before it
SB SD and SoD at once before idk
Was it SS then CB + ST?
I barely remember

[tribal blade]

dance>strike>sectec

and now you cast blades after sectec

[mint swift]

Oh really?

That’s so strange

[plush roost]

Its a pretty set CD usage so it won't take long to learn

[mint swift]

Why?

[mint swift]

I remember dust making it harder for me to comprehend in M+

[plush roost]

Blades doesn't work on sec tec clones, +premed value +its 16 seconds now

[mint swift]

Fair

Do you just SoD with ever SD now

With double charge

And you still flag before SD I assume

[alpine wraith]

i have a clear cut thingy in my sheet but it is also in the general guides i think

[tribal blade]

you only ever dance with sod

[plush roost]

Yeah its pmuch build to 6-7cp, flag, finisher, dance+sod, ss,.sectec, blades, standard rotation

[mint swift]

An ok

That actually sounds kinda easier than Assa?

[alpine wraith]

best one is you cant be parried as trickster

you can eat the face of the boss

[mint swift]

Nice nice

So outside of your CDs
You just shurken storm into Evi

For CDs
You build to 5+
Flag, into Evic
Stealth and SoD
SS
CB and ST then just
Mash SS into Evic if CP +5

Do we still use rupture

[plush roost]

Does Fazed anti-parry still work for all raiders? Or is it fixed to just be the Rogue

[alpine wraith]

still wors as far as i know

[plush roost]

Pog

[mint swift]

I remember rupture as sub being like eh compared to Assa

[alpine wraith]

sub rupture is quite stronger than assa

[plush roost]

In m+ you spread ruptures, but also at 5+ targets BP is better

[alpine wraith]

but it has almost no mechanics to it

[plush roost]

Over evis

[mint swift]

Ok so

Opener you SD and SS into Evic? Or do you just spread ruptures to 5 targets

[plush roost]

Depends on key level and pull but i like to tornado and spread ruptures then go into cds once the pull is gathered

[mint swift]

Fair

[plush roost]

Dont wanna waste too much time spreading ruptures

[mint swift]

Oh we run tornado again?

Based

True true

[plush roost]

Optional, some do, some run Veiltouched

[mint swift]

So tornado and every hit you rutupre, sounds good

Ah KK

No finality anymore? :0

Also tricks over BJ?

[plush roost]

Not unless you're playing DS+Brew

[mint swift]

Ahh ok

I might try this later at home :)

[plush roost]

Some people dont even run that side of the tree lol

[mint swift]

I still need to do some BM keys

Tbh it could be fun to go for relm highest sub

Nobody plays sub in my realm

Sorta dead relm

Plus even if my stats aren’t perfect I’m still p high ilevel

Yea top sub in my realm is 2.7

[slim field]

hey, is that your doc? Can u share it?

[alpine wraith]

it is in my profile i think

[slim field]

cheers mate

[mint swift]

I might try some 10s as sub later, if I do I’ll post how it goes

[tribal blade]

oh my god interrupted by an ad right as kush started talking about how sub is doing in keys

i'm tilted

[mint swift]

KEK

[tribal blade]

i missed the entire thing

i fucking hate twitch

[mint swift]

Proph you only a sub player?

[tribal blade]

nah i play some sin too in keys

[mint swift]

Fair I’m just Assa en

*rn

Now I’m at 3K Assa maybe I can go for 3K sub

[tribal blade]

sin IO

sub

[mint swift]

Pug or groups

[tribal blade]

but i stopped pushing

[mint swift]

Fair

I was so proud of my 3K and everyone here has more hahah

[alpine wraith]

dont worry i dont even have 2.6

cba

brrrrr

[mint swift]

lol

[tribal blade]

everyone starts somewhere! i was not that great until i met a team that wanted a rogue to push with in S2 SL

[mint swift]

Tbh I usually just go for 2.5K so I’m happy I got this high

[tribal blade]

and from there i kept at it

[mint swift]

Oh I’m full pug

P much

[tribal blade]

i mostly pug too

[mint swift]

Like my highest scoring key was a pug

14 SoB

[tribal blade]

pugging title is miserable

[mint swift]

Yea :(

Ofc if I had a team it would be fun

But I don’t think I can commit

Especially with uni and work atm

Next up you’ll say you go to uni

Or smth

Or work 7 days a week 10 hours a day

Aha

[tribal blade]

it's REALLY hard to find a set group to run keys with

it's kinda crazy how difficult it is to get a group going

most people will jump ship at the first sign of trouble

grass is greener mentality

[mint swift]

Fair

Tbh I’m top 5 in my guild so I’m happy

[tribal blade]

i think getting 3k this season (at least earlier on) was already a good achievement

[mint swift]

Ye :D

[tribal blade]

but yeah just keep climbing, you never know where your ceiling is until you really push it 😉

[mint swift]

True

Thing is idk if I should keep climbing
I mean I could try? Big break is coming up

[tribal blade]

only do it if you feel up for it

don't force it

i'm gonna be real, i know quite a few people who hard push keys all day every day, and they're not exactly the happiest people in the world haha

[mint swift]

True

[tribal blade]

but pushing keys gives you so many advantages

[mint swift]

I mean
As a legend once said
People raid for FUN? Do you think me looking at my logs makes me happy?
-Barny64

[tribal blade]

it makes you realize the importance of cleaning up game play, looking into min maxing rotations, changing your set up to be more optimal

[mint swift]

At least I belive that’s what she said

Tbh

I think in raid so far I’m pretty good

[tribal blade]

nice!

[mint swift]

Sadly our guild is casual and lacking players

Also we have a lot of connection issues

Like we only usually get one raid mythic day a week atm

[tribal blade]

oh damn that blows

[mint swift]

I need to log my runs more

Sometimes I’m confused why I don’t do that good in M+

[mint swift]

Yea
Like one week we had a whole hour taken away due to people not being able to log on
Last wed we just had a lot of people absence, like our MT is stuck in bed

[tribal blade]

that's rough, that's why my guild runs a big roster

so we never have to call off raid for absences

[mint swift]

We have like 18 people ish

Are recruiting atm tho

[tribal blade]

ahh ok so not even 20, that's rough

[mint swift]

Yea

Also

How eh are these stats

For sub

[tribal blade]

haste is way too high

you want a lot more vers

and more mast too

[mint swift]

You could say that for Assa too, but it keeps saying to get haste

[tribal blade]

crit is also a bit high

[mint swift]

Yeye

It is Assa gear

So it won’t be optimal for sub

At least I got a lot of Amat

*mast

[tribal blade]

just for reference these are my stats unbuffed

[junior prawn]

You dont wanna use skardyn on sub or you will want to treat it as 3min cd trinket

[mint swift]

I remember sub being like mass stack mas and vers

[tribal blade]

pretty much yeah

[mint swift]

True, what CDs have 2 min CDs for sub

Cause Assa you just BIND to DM

[junior prawn]

well its 1.50 cds on Shadowblades and Flagelation

[mint swift]

Ohhh

Fair

[tribal blade]

yeah transmitter REALLY good on sub

[mint swift]

That sucks

I mean I can still prolly do ok damage as sub?

[junior prawn]

Yes

[mint swift]

Just nowhere near as good Assa dps

But I feel like that’s also due to power level of the two sprca

*specs

[junior prawn]

its ok assass will get shot next season 😔

[hazy breach]

You can do close to assa dps in certain keys

City, dawn, mists and siege are all fine

[mint swift]

Fair, sub has better ST right

[hazy breach]

And the second half of nw sub is way better

[hazy breach]

Significantly yes

[mint swift]

Fair

[tribal blade]

that's the main advantage sub has over sin, is on pure ST the damage is miles better

[mint swift]

So Assa is better on more aoe focused dungeons and comps with ST classes and Sub is better on ST dungeons and/or more aoe focused comps

[hazy breach]

For example last boss of nw youd be struggling to get over 1m, whereas on sub you can easily do 1.3-1.4m. Now thats obv a scuffed boss but still

Its not like subs aoe is bad

[mint swift]

Yea

[hazy breach]

Its just bursty

[mint swift]

Fuck that boss btw

Yea
Compared to Assa

Well Assa has burst

But you know what I mean

[tribal blade]

another positive sub has is defensive value

you just passively have around +10% DR over sin because of vers

[mint swift]

Tbf

[tribal blade]

fade to nothing from dance gives you another 10%

[mint swift]

Assa already has good defensives

[tribal blade]

sub is noticably better

[mint swift]

Fair

God this makes me wanna play wow, but Tuesdays are always the longest

[sly shore]

you can do 4/8 in a pug if you want instead

[mint swift]

I don’t wanna just ditch my raid group though

[alpine wraith]

yea but getting railed with the boys does not hit the same

[mint swift]

On my main

Like we already have low people
I don’t wanna just say “I’m not gonna raid today I’ll just do it w pugs”

[vale pine]

you want vers mastery for sub, crit is fine, haste is kinda useless

[mint swift]

Yeye

Tbh I most likely won’t gear for sub as I enjoy Assa atm

[vale pine]

thats fine, you can do keys without optimal gear on sub too

[mint swift]

Yuh

If I play it right it should be good

Excited for next semester tbf
No day has me stay at uni for more than 5 hours

And only at uni 3 days a week

[round latch]

in less than a month u gonna have a xmas party with outlaws flooding this chat

wishes for courage,strength and a strong mind ofc

😂

[vale pine]

huh why

[glacial tartan]

So I've started doing some M0 runs finally and I was curious about the rotation. If your Vanish is on CD, how do you approach your opener? Do you instead go into Shadow Dance/Symbol of Death earlier?

[bleak pasture]

[hazy breach]

You generally already have slice and dice up in keys

So you dont need the eviscerate before the rupture

[short radish]

first opener as well you just do flag -> rupture -> full send

and you get snd up anyway

[glacial tartan]

Ahh okay that makes sense.

[tribal blade]

if you want you can get snd up as the tank is gathering

[short radish]

can you still do the snd pre dungeon?

or did they nerf that with the outlaw nerf

[hazy breach]

It doesnt really matter either way, its just one eviscerate

[short radish]

but muh prepull

[glacial tartan]

So with that though. Is it better to just do your full opener on trash mobs or should you be holding some CDs like Flagellation?

[short radish]

full send

never hold

on opener

[round latch]

guess who's gonna take a round sit on the throne(its rhetorical)

[tribal blade]

don't overthink your cd usage

just send as stuff comes up so long as what you're fighting will live the majority of your cd's use

[short radish]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[glacial tartan]

Just like with tanking, it definitely feels hard to gauge the rotation sometimes in M0.

Just with how quickly things die.

[short radish]

low keys do be like that

[tribal blade]

yeah there's no way to use cds well in M0s when everything dies instantly

you just gotta press your cds and accept the fact that you're kinda wasting them

if you try to wait for a good moment to use em, you're gonna be sitting on them for long periods of time

[glacial tartan]

I had to break that habit with learning to tank. When I got to M8s and M9s I was holding Shield Wall too much and Avatar.

[tribal blade]

one of the main problems a lot of people have in M+ is overthinking their cds

and holding too much

i knew a hunter who i did a mechagon workshop with 1 time, and she always had sus damage, and then i found out on the last boss she was literally holding her 2 min cd for the entire 1st phase of the boss so she could have it ready for P2 with lust

when in reality P1 was long enough where she was basically losing an entire cast

[spark tusk]

To be fair the calculation matters for some specs more than others

Like for sub I feel you are free to just go

Honestly most cases you should always just go anyways

Assa is just a pia because your cds are target based not player based

so it's possible to pick a target that wastes the entire cd

whereas with sub there's no risk of that

you just go

and vibe

https://tenor.com/view/vibe-cat-gif-23091665

[tribal blade]

the nice thing about sin is at least you can spec into sudden demise

[glacial tartan]

So out of curiosity, does Sub do more single target than Assa?

[tribal blade]

and you kinda recover some dmg

[tribal blade]

in M+ talents yes

[spark tusk]

Yeah, though it's inherently, by design, inefficient damage recovery

[tribal blade]

yeah tru

[hazy breach]

Significantly in m+ talents yes

[tribal blade]

i figured out the 1st pull of SV

even on a 15 sending deathmark and KB is kinda pointless

if you're in a 3 dps comp

[glacial tartan]

If that's the case, what makes Assa better in M+ Dungeons over Sub? AoE?

[tribal blade]

sin does massive aoe

[spark tusk]

large Aoe + iron wire are what ass has that sub does not

[tribal blade]

and insane prio

[spark tusk]

yeah and the prio

[tribal blade]

you'll always be on top of the prio mob dmg in every key as sin

[glacial tartan]

That makes me think of people using Starfall.. it's honestly a nightmare if I don't place an aoe down ahead of time..

[haughty mural]

what about flag?

[vale pine]

in mythic+ yes

[spark tusk]

The target of your flag doesn't need to live

unless I'm mistaken?

If you flag a target and it immediately dies, you can still gain stacks right?

[vale pine]

it needs to surrive till you reach 30 stacks

[spark tusk]

Ah ok

at least you don't lose damage from not attacking it specifically

you can just cast on a target that will live than swap targets

[alpine wraith]

if target dies you get 10 stacks so only need to survive to 20 kinda

you do lose the time tho

[haughty mural]

yup

a little thing i hate about flag

[glad raven]

Bro its hard to get a full burst of AOE in 10/11s, nevermind 0s xD

[short radish]

do we use nightly/weekly/latest for raidbots on sub?

[glacial tartan]

That is fair lol. This is my first DPS so it's a bit of a learning curve.

[glad raven]

Well arguably, you picked the hardest class so.. can only get easier from here lol

[vale pine]

basically, you get the buff with whatever stacks you have if the target dies, which can be bad if its low

[glacial tartan]

So is it best to put Flag on a strong enemy that you know will be the last to die?

So like the Golems in Stonevault I guess as an example

[glad raven]

Whoever is the chonkiest of boys

[glad raven]

yup

Just faze a target and send it into a big boi

[tribal blade]

i'd like to see flag lashes do actual damage again

so we get some big prio dam during cds

that would be a good talent to get, replace some shitter talent we currently have with OBE

[alpine wraith]

lashing scars was fire yea

good times

obedience did not do shite for dmg tho

[tribal blade]

yeah true i mixed em up, the conduit is what gave the actual damage

plus the obe effect would be terrible on sub since it would desync flag and blades

after all the suffering we went through to finally have em synced

[lilac stag]

Very synced

[alpine wraith]

we would sync our faces to the table

if that happened again

[lilac stag]

but blades back to 20 you cowards

[alpine wraith]

every day i remember they made blades not work with tornado

because fuck you

[glacial tartan]

So probably a dumb question and I'm sorry for it, but Shadowstrike is what generates Flawless Form because of enemies being fazed right? Also, sorry for all the questions x3

[alpine wraith]

it is unseen blade

it can just proc from strike or backstab

[tribal blade]

incredible

[glacial tartan]

Thank you. Just the way it was worded made me think it was the fazed proc.

[short radish]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

be careful, could critically hit

[scarlet heath]

never liked they took that away and just made it into a mastery buff with extra steps

lashing something and then sending bunch of finishers into it and seeing big dam was pretty dope

probably way too broken with current SBlades tho

[hazy breach]

Should reduce the duration to 18 or 20 seconds and buff the damage to compensate

The 24s duration is very silly when blades is 16 and dance is 8

[haughty mural]

that really was a headscratcher

[lilac stag]

multiples of 8

[hazy breach]

It makes perfect sense from a "keep the uptime the same as before" pov

[lilac stag]

EZclap

[leaden prairie]

Why is flagellation icon a sword

[hazy breach]

Flag cd wasnt changed so it stays the same.
Blades duration was lowered by 25% to compensate for the 25% reduction in cooldown

[leaden prairie]

Isn't flagellation supposed to be whipping people with a whip

[spark tusk]

don't limit your imagination

[uneven fern]

when are they adding a whip class

never probably but it would have cool animations

[spark tusk]

They'd give that class cool animations and sectec will remain as is

[leaden prairie]

i asked this yesterday, kieron answered me and i then forgot about it, but why could we fit 2 st in cds in df doing it that way, but now cant

i dont remembre what changed

[lilac stag]

Blades is 16 secs. Dance CDR is low

[edgy zenith]

this is my biggest issue, honestly

[fallow nimbus]

Also dust reduced sectec by 30 sec

[vestal escarp]

Shadowdust

[fallow nimbus]

You want to cover as much of blades with dance as you can

[chilly sage]

Any1 knows if Cloak can make the flame adds change target in grim batol?

[fallow nimbus]

They switch

[vestal escarp]

They switch, focus tank, explode instantly and depleto

[keen dome]

one weird trick that your tank hates.

[vestal escarp]

Because in this game

Cos can clear some focus

Not all

[keen dome]

I did that keya while back with a buddy, and he said "don't blind them" just as I blinded them. The rest of this sentence "because it will wipe us" but he didn't need to explain that part..

[vestal escarp]

[fallow nimbus]

Maybe the next step for sub is full bugfixes, sectec working with blades and reworked talents like wm to work with all builders

[leaden prairie]

oh

[hazy breach]

In DF you either had dust, or you had 3 or so globals inbetween your dances to farm some cdr for it (if DB)

But now that transmitter and blades are 15/16 seconds waiting 3 globals inbetween your dances aint a thing

But also current 4p makes sectech first not nearly as bad

[hazy breach]

Doesnt cloak just make the adds insta explode or am i missremembering?

[fallow nimbus]

Next tier is reversed, omega buffed sectec

[haughty mural]

2pc: SecTec clones work with blades ?

[vestal escarp]

I wouldn't know exactly cause i was told about this cos interaction

The guy that told me was playin the stack strat

And his guess was about them instant fixing on tank and going off

[hazy breach]

Ye im not certain either, i just remember i should never press cloak and havent done it

[vestal escarp]

Theres nothing to cos on valiona if you're playing that strat anyway

Nados are non existing and knockback does not that much

[hazy breach]

Saves me having to feint the knockback

[leaden prairie]

Knockback kinda hit for a lot

I'm glad we are imune to shit like this with feint

But you just get one shot from it even in like 15 I think

[vale pine]

feint is rly good

[bleak wind]

I would much rather have it cost no energy and be on the gcd though

[vestal escarp]

Erm

[vale pine]

agree, i would love for it to be energy free

[hazy breach]

I mean right now its practically free if youre in cds

[vale pine]

fair point

[strange chasm]

A lot of classes would give up a lot to have feint even with the energy cost lol

[leaden prairie]

???????????????????

wild take

cooked take

[bleak wind]

naah

[leaden prairie]

im blocking you actually

[bleak wind]

you play outlaw its different there

[leaden prairie]

not really lol

all 3 specs have infinite energy during cds

outside of cds gcd or energy is wya less relevant anywya

[bleak wind]

I've had situations where I've missed a gcd in dance because of it

[haughty mural]

why not both

[strange chasm]

Miss a gcd and live or hit the gcd and die

[bleak wind]

ye but the point was you still missed a gcd even though feint is not on it

[strange chasm]

Yes but you lived

If you had to press feint chances are you needed to in order to live

[bleak wind]

ye I am not questioning how strong it is

[alpine wraith]

in dance you can use evasion better

[vestal escarp]

Youd miss a global in dance anyway if it was on the global

[bleak wind]

just that it can still 'feel' bad to press

[glacial tartan]

Realistically to me just from a DPS perspective WoW or not, it off the GCD is better. Besides, survivability is better than DPSing in this case if you have to hit Feint over something else.

[leaden prairie]

but

if it was on the gcd

you would always miss a gcd

[fair stump]

i don't know why does it cost that much energy

[strange chasm]

[fair stump]

Other classes's defensives do not cost resources

[leaden prairie]

we can press ours too often

[bleak wind]

idk, not the biggest fan of energy cost defensive, cooked take perhaps

[strange chasm]

Other classes don't have feint lol

[vestal escarp]

And they're on a 2 min cd

[hazy breach]

Other classes defensives typically have cooldowns

[leaden prairie]

so it kinda have to have a cost

[strange chasm]

Feint is absurdly strong

[leaden prairie]

otherwise its kinda a press on cd thing almost

for outlaw it would be for example

[haughty mural]

feint is reaaaaaally good

[hazy breach]

I personally prefer both energy and gcd and keep feint as a strong defensive. The more accessible they make it the more likely it is that theyll need to nerf it

[vestal escarp]

The second charge was gamechanging

[bleak wind]

you will have to remove it from the cdr

[vestal escarp]

One charge alone has competitors

[strange chasm]

2 charges and no gcd

[tulip gorge]

don't you dare touch rogue defensives

[strange chasm]

We have been eating so good

[vestal escarp]

Like spell reflect

[leaden prairie]

I don't think the cost serves as a balancing tool for feint

It's just a limiter

[fair stump]

Maybe this was purely for pvp, but I remember hunter's feign death having a dmg reduction for a few seconds after casting

[haughty mural]

we have a lower healthpool to make up for it

[leaden prairie]

I think the balancing part of feint is just how it's a niche defensive

That doesn't work on everything

So you are strong on certain stuffs

And weak on others

[tulip gorge]

but elusiveness

[fair stump]

You don't play cheat death?

[leaden prairie]

Well elus is still only 20%

And you give up cheat

[tulip gorge]

I play elusiveness in m+

[leaden prairie]

Which is arguably the best defensive in the game

Ye everyone does

But the cost is quite big

[hazy breach]

If it didnt have any cost we would just be using it all the time

Thus it would need to be weaker

[leaden prairie]

Ye

[tulip gorge]

if you get targeted by a dot or something and you don't have cloak you are just screwed

[leaden prairie]

I agree with that but

[fair stump]

õ_õ you play elusiveness in M+?

[leaden prairie]

As long as there is a cost

Even the slightest cost

[glacial tartan]

Where would you even take elusive over Cheat Death?

[leaden prairie]

We are safe of that to me

[vestal escarp]

Everywhere

[haughty mural]

everywhere tbh

[tulip gorge]

everywhere, just don't die

[glacial tartan]

I'm not good enough for that yet😂

But touche

[leaden prairie]

elus is useless in low keys

dw abotu it

[vestal escarp]

Bro got mogged

[haughty mural]

okay zac

[leaden prairie]

am i wrong

[bleak wind]

it feels like you already need elusivness in 10s though

[haughty mural]

those shots

[leaden prairie]

what does elus do when nothing does damage

While cheat can prevent mistakes

Like you are going. To take élus

But then never press defs

[alpine wraith]

elus is a skill check

[leaden prairie]

Cause you don't need defs anyway

What's the point

[alpine wraith]

but dont worry bozos will make more than 1 mistake per 6 mins

[fair stump]

me not pressing evasion

[alpine wraith]

then die every time after

[tulip gorge]

what's the point in taking cheat death if you are never proccing it in low keys

[alpine wraith]

with elu at least they can get saved more than once every 6 mins if they remember to press one of 2 buttons

[leaden prairie]

i miss playing like a psychopath with cheat tho

[leaden prairie]

if you are never proccing it you didnt need elus either tho

[hazy breach]

In situations where you know you'd die anyway without elusiveness

[fair stump]

In which instances do you guys press evasion?

Aside from getting hit by normal attack

[vestal escarp]

Whats the point of yoloing id you can only do it once per 6 min

[hazy breach]

The mistake prevention of cheat is way more valueable than people here give it credit for

I would not really recommend elusiveness until like 13/14s

[vestal escarp]

When feint 20% alone isnt enough

[fair stump]

Doesn't evasion only applies to attacks tho?

[hazy breach]

Especially considering that default feint works on most dangerous things this season

[vestal escarp]

Elusivness talented

[hazy breach]

And sub is already inherently tanky af

[vestal escarp]

If you mean the dodge effect

[leaden prairie]

nerf sub

[vestal escarp]

You can dodge a few mechanics in this rotation

[bleak wind]

I even intentionally proc it on some bosses, otherwise dead talent

[glacial tartan]

My goal right now is to just get 2k rating as a Sub. 13/14s are not in my sight lol.

[vestal escarp]

In my sleep the other day i cooked a brilliant way to make ol have burst

[fair stump]

Which mechs?

[leaden prairie]

tell me

[vestal escarp]

No get fucked

[leaden prairie]

ok

[hazy breach]

The fixates in nw around 3rd boss, the throw flesh in nw, the throw knifes on the second CoT boss

So quite niche

[vestal escarp]

Downtime gives you a stacking dmg amp buff you can pop with AR

[fair stump]

You can evade those?

Damn, I've gotten killed due to that throw knife and throw flesh

[leaden prairie]

Frontal first boss nw

[fair stump]

Good to know

[fair stump]

The one where he spews acid and spawns adds?

You can evade that shit? I just feinted

[leaden prairie]

Ya

You can also cloak it last seconde

You can evasion dot poison application from spiders in ara Kara first area

And the jumps from the flying spiders in arakara

[vestal escarp]

Thats new for me

[leaden prairie]

Noob

[vestal escarp]

[leaden prairie]

In siege you can evasion the guys that throw powder shot or whatever the name is

They are first boss and after first boss

You can also evasion bomb throw before first boss

You can also evasion the shooters in last area

[hazy breach]

The shooters are just a frontal nowadays though arent they

[glacial tartan]

Most are yeah.

[leaden prairie]

Kinda kinda not

[glacial tartan]

There are a few that don't

[leaden prairie]

They will targets people that are in front of them

No one pull those anyway

[hazy breach]

Idk i havent played them

[glacial tartan]

X3 I only know from tanking it to be fair.

Also, I'm assuming there is a Weak Aura for evasion?

[leaden prairie]

I think evasion is the most useful in nw

Since you can evasion all the throw knifes

And first boss frontal

It's a lot

[hazy breach]

I did a whole writeup on a per-dungeon basis on what to evasion/feint/cloak/vanish in the m+ tips section of icy veins

[hazy breach]

Ye and the fixates (even though you mostly get bop anyway)

But in theory if everybody wasnt playing prot pala that would be good

[glacial tartan]

Prot Pal

Prot War

[hazy breach]

Prot war can intervene, but thats only for 6 out of the 8 seconds

[fair stump]

Oh, game up

[glacial tartan]

At least you get a Magic Bubble.

To be honest, out of all the dungeons I've been learning and running, NW by far as a Prot War has been the roughest

[fair stump]

wrong spec, Eleem

[hazy breach]

Thats not the part i was referring to

But ye mb didnt update that one

[uneven fern]

[glacial tartan]

So which dungeon in M+ as a Sub is going to be the hardest to run?

[hazy breach]

I just removed that entire paragraph

[hazy breach]

Wdym by hardest

[fair stump]

On the affixes part there's another garrote mention

Damn mythic bis ring or mythic pants

hmm

[glacial tartan]

I know for melee, some dungeons can be much harder to be consistent than others.

[fair stump]

the rookery

[glacial tartan]

And to be honest I don't know really much about dps mechanics for bosses in current M+ rotations.

[glacial tartan]

The horror

[hazy breach]

Idk wouldnt really say theres any dungeons thats extra difficult as a rogue specifically

[alpine wraith]

motherlode will be

we get 2 shot by almost everything if they dont omeganerf it kek

[hazy breach]

If anything the hardest part about being a rogue is convincing your paladin tanks to not skip the first 3 mobs of grim batol with shroud

Because theyll always pull the entire dungeon with their shield if you do

[keen dome]

"Oh, whoops. Forgot to push Shroud. Darn. Guess we're fighting them"

[lilac stag]

Just cancel it

[glacial tartan]

This sounds horrible

[keen dome]

[lilac stag]

blame a bug

[glacial tartan]

I hate the pure throught of this

[keen dome]

Honestly, a lotta DPS mindlessly run into mobs with shroud anyway so there's a good chance it resolves itself without you doing anything.

[hazy breach]

Well you'd sap

So that shouldnt happen

[keen dome]

Someone will find a way.

[alpine wraith]

if you go through a mob it will aggro even if sapped

[keen dome]

same if someone walked through me, tbh

[alpine wraith]

if they are krangled enoughj

[glacial tartan]

That's.. wild

[alpine wraith]

they have to really go and touch their chest then butt tho

illegal palpation

[keen dome]

I saw it a lot during DF S3 where people would want you to shroud skip the final tunnel in uh.. the first half of the mega dungeon.

Someone would just run through a mob and get sent to the shadowrealm

[alpine wraith]

motherlode will be funny for that again

[keen dome]

And then they'd go "Rogue????" or something

[alpine wraith]

on the part after azerokk where all pulls are caner incarnate

[keen dome]

I had someone do it in Siege recently on the shooter pack which was like, impressive to do.

[alpine wraith]

that you want to skip

[hazy breach]

Theyre absolutely going to change motherlode

[alpine wraith]

the shooter pack the classic is slipping in a banana

then using an ability

[leaden prairie]

https://wago.io/TsFNFG1H7 no but you should be playing with this weak aura

[keen dome]

lmao, that owns though

[leaden prairie]

if you arent you are trolling

[glacial tartan]

I keep hearing that the Motherload is an atrocious dungeon

[keen dome]

they should add the bananas to more dungeons. banana affix.

[alpine wraith]

it is not atrocious

but it can go from super easy

[alpine wraith]

to ball breaking

[keen dome]

just rains bananas you slip on from the sky (eenmies too)

[upbeat sorrel]

we go socket agen??

[alpine wraith]

in 2 secs

like many mechanics are insta wipes

[spark tusk]

need more chaotic affixes like this

[alpine wraith]

i hate the bananas tbh

mostly because tanks also dont move

[sullen hare]

It's another one of those dungeons where it's a pug nightmare tbh that's all

[keen dome]

make enemies slip up over them using the comedy sound effect

[spark tusk]

Every crit dealt has a chance to knock you down and back 5 yards, including enemies

[glacial tartan]

Using Heroic Leap only to hit a banana is the worst

[spark tusk]

and every knockback plays banana peel sound

[umbral sundial]

Hey is learning subtelty rotation a lot harder than sin you say? I wanna try sub *out in Mythic today

(we are stuck on broodtwister)

[sullen hare]

Not harder just different

[hazy breach]

Overall motherlode was fine, it just has some incredibly overtuned trash near the end so people were forced to either deathskip or shroud through most of it

[keen dome]

affix that spawns an escort quest randomly.

[umbral sundial]

Oh also I mispoke I meant to say "I want to try out Sub today"

[sullen hare]

I figured as much.

[hazy breach]

But theyll presumably tune it a bit differently this time around, just like how theyve done with other dungeons

[keen dome]

I'm excited for workshop

[glacial tartan]

I'm kind of excited to run it though, I've not really played older content yet

[sullen hare]

Sub and sin play incredibly differently so you may want to crash some lower keys if you plan to take it to mythic raid tonight

[alpine wraith]

you mean everything is going well

then machinist wipes you 4 times

coggers

[sullen hare]

Everything is fine until summertime spends 5 minutes getting zapped in the stealth section

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/escorts-gtfo-bye-throw-gif-8382575

[keen dome]

affix that spawns tavian. the entire party has 10 seconds to pet him and type "you are a good boy, yes you are" and if you do he'll charge through all mobs in combat, doing massive damage.

[sullen hare]

Taivan best boy

[keen dome]

if you fail to do it uh I dunno you feel bad 'cos he didn't get petted.

[sullen hare]

Debuff: you didn't pet the best boy. You die.

Also as a first timer to the spec, if you're using builds that are pinned such as the death stalker aoe build eleem pinned recently I would suggest swapping out shuriken tornado for veil touched @umbral sundial

[upbeat sorrel]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[upbeat sorrel]

can i use two crafted rings

[alpine wraith]

yea

[craggy quest]

man why cant my main rogue get the juiced gear meanwhile my 2nd rogue gets all the good off pieces for sub zzzzzz

vers mas m+ helm last week and m+ ring this week

suffering from success

[upbeat sorrel]

solution is to make a 3rd rogue

[craggy quest]

i have 4 of them lol

[upbeat sorrel]

[craggy quest]

but yeah i should gear a 3rd one kek

the ret is mega juiced as well

sacbrood and shard back to back

[fair stump]

I haven't seen the first group that skips the first 3 mobs

[hazy breach]

Just play one

[craggy quest]

sadly missing two pieces for the last achiev

well i can potentially get it this week is rng in raid is blessed

[fair stump]

ugh, sims says to take myth pants

Another week without ring

[glad raven]

What else you even need at this point?

[lilac stag]

time for assa arc @tribal blade

[alpine wraith]

kek

[lilac stag]

double on use sub time

lfg

[alpine wraith]

it is not bad on cdr week

[wooden light]

Just played Sub for the first time in NW. Is the add in dark exile supposed to evade when you attack him because of the permanent misdirection?

That kind of f'ed me up lol

[alpine wraith]

if you play tricks yes

dont play tricks

[lilac stag]

i wonder if it is useful on court

[alpine wraith]

or just cancel it

[alpine wraith]

mandate better usually as second trink on court

[lilac stag]

I took it, because why not.

shit i have to farm crests now.

[wooden light]

Can't believe it's been like that for 4 months now and not addressed lol. Anyway that's good to know

[lilac stag]

like what? tricks always works like that

snapping is a thing

[warm marlin]

It’s not really a bug, you’re redirecting threat to someone the mob can’t hit so it evades

[lilac stag]

you just dont have it up normally

[wooden light]

Yeah I guess you need to know that otherwise your fight is screwed

[lilac stag]

sure. But generally speaking if you have tricks up, it snaps.

Basic rogue dungeon stuff

the ahaha is your brain forgetting you have it up all the time.

[vale pine]

have fun

[craggy quest]

neck and boots

[wooden light]

Yeah I know it's usually what happens. I forgot I had it on (first DJ as Sub) and didn't expect a talent to break the fight

[glad raven]

oh true

[craggy quest]

i have everything else @ 639

[lilac stag]

The funny part, I ran an OcE 10 about 40 minutes before reset. Needed one more slot for a socket. Hahah

so much for my hole

[wooden light]

In M+, does Deathstalker have less prio target damage than trickster? Guides I have seen say to use black powder instead of evis from 2 targets (apart from when we need to reapply the mark)

[hazy breach]

Deathstalker has way more (~10-15%)

DS BP does like 85% of the damage of eviscerate on pure ST. So with just a few targets singular focus makes it better

[hazy breach]

The gnome

[lucid jackal]

Ugh I wanna go orc so bad but theres an annoying bug with orc and the bloodfang set it legit makes me not want to go orc

[hazy breach]

Save for maghar after .7

It is a bit cringe with 2 minutes though, why couldnt there be a 3 minute one

(thats not troll with haste)

[lucid jackal]

Well I'd just swap maghar now

I want to be off alliance

asap

I feel so alien in stormwind

[solemn lance]

are we secteching first finisher in dance always now?

[hazy breach]

Yep

[solemn lance]

is that to ensure we get a 2nd one in when cds are up?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[solemn lance]

sweet i like

[strange chasm]

Is Maghar good next patch?

[hazy breach]

Slightly better than regular orc ye

[strange chasm]

Better than dwarf tho?

[hazy breach]

Numerically both are already like 0.5% better than dwarf

Obviously the dispel is good from dwarf

Theyre making the maghar give one of your two highest stats instead of a random and theyre increasing the number by 30%

[wooden light]

So what's the argument for trickster over DS then?
Surely it must compensate somewhere else.

[hazy breach]

Trickster bursts higher

[strange chasm]

So maghar might be better than .5%

I think the dispel from dwarf is so good

[hazy breach]

And trickster also has more cdr from so you get some extra dances across the key

[ember hound]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

Main problem with deathstalker is that you kinda want to have dark brew and finality to do good constant aoe cleave with big ruptures, but then youre trading of rotten for it and youre forced to take perforated veins, which tanks your singletarget

[strange chasm]

Trickster is as best as sub as ever felt so far

[vale pine]

agree, and it feels weird to buff deathstalker this much to make it relevant

[still trellis]

also agree, played 2 of my weekly mists as sub. One as deathstalker and one as trickster, the one as trickster felt a lot more fun

[hazy breach]

I would say i preferred when we only pressed evis, but thats moreso a complaint towards FW being nothing but annoying nowadays

And storm consuming 2 rotten stacks i guess

[still trellis]

playing around the mark as DS somehow feels more annoying than fun in aoe, also the fact that i dont feel like shit when there are only 2 mobs makes trickster just straight up a win in my book

[strange chasm]

DS just doesn't have enough cdr

Trickster you are doing damage with your abilities not some dumb mark mechanic

[topaz raptor]

is singular focus really that good

so good that everyone always talks about it

[lilac stag]

Yes.

Better on Assa, but still great on sub

[vestal escarp]

On sub its not interacting with sectech

Also by runs i did as DS, singular on my prio targets wasnt that high on individual breakdown

Nothing crazy

[topaz raptor]

Yeah it seems a lot lower than you’d expect it to be

[swift tinsel]

is sectech in transmitter the same as in dance where if you don't get all hits in the buff window its scuffed or does it behave differently

[vestal escarp]

It wasnt affected by the latest plague dmg buff

[swift tinsel]

assuming its the same

[vestal escarp]

No different behavior, just that if clones hit when radio agility is down they hit for less

So yes just like sod, dark shadow and danse

[swift tinsel]

that's what I figured, thanks

ds just feels like it struggles way harder to fit both and I greatly dislike that

could be confounded by lag when testing + RS bug

[vestal escarp]

As eleem mentioned DS would interact better with finality and db but those are competing with stuff like death perception, inev and such which rn take the role of good enablers to make the spec feel good post 0.5

[swift tinsel]

Yeah it def seems like its a better fit for db builds which would be fine if it played well like you said

[hazy breach]

@tribal blade Flawless fucking run

[vale pine]

nicuu

[hazy breach]

Im atleast playing sub in the second half

Assa too good in the first half im afraid

[strange chasm]

Just have an enhance handle the first half

My 15 I did they did 11mil overall heading into 3rd boss room

[hazy breach]

I had an unholy and an elemental, with me on sub for the second half

[strange chasm]

I just send sub every key now. Being ass isn't going to be why I don't time a 16 or not

I think title will probably be all 16s

[hazy breach]

Somewhere around there ye prob

[strange chasm]

I time one GB and I shoot up to behind you on sub rankings

[hazy breach]

My sub ranking also has a 10 sv and a 12 gb

[strange chasm]

[hazy breach]

I think rio counts my nw as sub

[strange chasm]

Sub is fine in a lot of the dungeons I think.

Not sure I've felt any difference on my ass keys. Maybe stone vault I blast harder on ass

[hazy breach]

Ye mostly gb and sv

But gb its mostly iron wire

Not the damage

[strange chasm]

Cot you nuke as sub

Because of the damage amps and 3rd boss

[hazy breach]

Ye only the part after second boss sucks a bit, but should be way better now with bp being stronger

But having flag+blades on every eye

[strange chasm]

Is super duper good

[hazy breach]

Is real good

[strange chasm]

Dawn sub is better I think

NW ass better first half because of rupture agi increase

For the bosses

[hazy breach]

I dont think sub is ever better, but its def around the same in cot+dawn+mists

Damagewise

But i also like sub more, and being tanky is nice

[vale pine]

assassiantion is just extremely strong tuned

[strange chasm]

I don't think the line between the 2 is as crazy as it was start of season

Like numerically ass isn't 20-50% better

[hazy breach]

It hasnt been far behind since .5

[strange chasm]

Like it's what maybe 5% behind?

And even then in my 15-16s stuff still dies fast

[vestal escarp]

even if the gap was higher, not feeling like shit playing full ST > sin

[strange chasm]

Sub having almost identical ST while still being able to do AOE is insanely fun

[vale pine]

the bp buffs are good to bridge aoe a bit, assassiantion funnel is just extremely potent and does not require massive amounts of targets to beat everyone else in prio damage.

it still feels weird because sub was usually the funnel spec, but sub is fun to play so whatever

[strange chasm]

Is there a way to see the numerical difference

Like sub cannot be that far behind on prio

[vale pine]

you can sim on sub with priority_rotation=1

or just sim regular

[lilac stag]

Top Ovi boss dmg only with similar kill times.
Assa - 743m (Singular 40m)
Sub - 577m (Singular 27m)

It slaps sub around as far as prio.

[vestal escarp]

is assa talented into scent?

shouldnt be for ovi

[lilac stag]

No

Why use rupture as a dot spec.

[hazy breach]

It slaps sub everybody around as far as prio.

[lilac stag]

3.2m vs 2.7m overall. lulz

You get a splatter. You get a splatter. YOU GET A SPLATTER.

[timid pulsar]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[willow pawn]

boss damage is cut by at least 30 seconds to a minute and 30 seconds playing Sub

in M+

doing 900k dps on ST bosses as assa with an aug is nasty work

[woeful barn]

I’ve acquired DS mark for nameplate. Next mission is to acquire DS mark next to discord name.

[formal notch]

hey everyone iam trying to relearn the basics for sublety as a lot has changed since the patch. do we still have as much down time outside of our cooldown windows and waiting for energy?

[woeful barn]

[swift tinsel]

Channels & Roles

[woeful barn]

Ooo ty

[hazy breach]

yes

[woeful barn]

It’s been updated that’s cool

[formal notch]

@hazy breach iam figuring the stuff out at the cleave dummy's right now but it seems that during symbols/shadow dance window i use shadowstrike in multitarget untill it fades i go back to building with shuriken right?

[hazy breach]

Yes

Assuming youre playing trickster

[formal notch]

yeah i am trying that out now

working arround shuriken tornado seems a bit off now tough

and not using black powder 😮

which one would you recon is easier to play between trickster and DS if you're used to the shadowdance build we had in season 1 and 2 in DF?

[hazy breach]

You can just not use tornado

But technically you should BP at 5 or more

[formal notch]

oh damn i tought BP sucked

[hazy breach]

But you also need to storm once with rotten up to proc fw for it

Ye it sucked

Then it got buffed by 35%, then it got buffed by 20%

And now it doesnt suck

[formal notch]

gotta place that back on my bar again then lol

[formal notch]

ill check icy veins for the non tornado M+ build then thanks

[hazy breach]

You just swap nado for veiltouched

Nothing else

[formal notch]

Goat

thanks a lot ❤️

two questions last how different are trickster and DS between gameplay? and is the full refund of combo points at random at deeper strat still a thing?

[hazy breach]

The "random" refunds is from shadowcraft when youre at 7 sht.
The slightly more random part of it is if you spec replicating shadows it can proc a bit after using your finisher

So for example if you get 7 sht 0.6s after eviscerating it can still give you a refund

Whereas without that bug it would only refund exactly when you press eviscerate

[formal notch]

man its hard to utilize that tough

[hazy breach]

Ye

The bugshould just get fixed

But

But if you track your sht stacks you'd know when the regular refunds happen atleast. or you can use one of the weakauras that play a sound whenever you get the refund

[mint swift]

Tried the sub rota on dummies it feels a lot more simple than i remember

Gonna chill w this build

Anything i should chabnge

[alpine wraith]

if that is for m+

tfd is way better than wm

[shrewd lantern]

Sounds like a personal issue.

[alpine wraith]

depends assa likely has used cds on mobs and wont get more than 1 rotation on bosses

as sub you get 2 or so most of the time

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah really depends

unless you just used cds on a mob assa shouldnt be doing sub 1mil with an aug

They'll come up mid boss if you used them a bit before

[willow pawn]

Assa not doing more than 1 - 1.1mil on pure ST in m+ bosses. And you can be Michael Phelps, pooling won’t save you either

[shrewd lantern]

Do you have druid/sham buff?

Might be low ilvl if you aren't doing a 1mil with cds

[willow pawn]

Just sham but he gets the PI as well. Plus in 17s bosses last long enough

You can maybe hit around 1.1 with ER

[shrewd lantern]

playing ER in keys 💀

[willow pawn]

But you sacrifice MA being prolonged

When I mean ER, I mean the second node

Starts with an R

I don’t remember the talent name

[shrewd lantern]

yeah the supercharger node

[willow pawn]

Playable in DV

DB

Lose some AoE but whatever

Bosses die faster

[shrewd lantern]

💀

Sub 100% has better st though, which is fine.

Specs having downsides is acceptable

[fallow nimbus]

11.1 will fix assa m+ st

For sub it's another bp buff and more plague dmg autohits for DS