and you dont dance without symbols
#subtlety
short radish
and you dont flag and sblade without also having those cds
obviously there are exceptions to that
like when you need to send naked symbols
hence the 80% thing
topaz raptor
Both to 50 at the same time works better for a lot of groups
It means any CDs will cover both
warm hare
hence the 80% thing
thats a nice summary
lilac stag
Both to 50 at the same time works better for a lot of groups
Yea. A lot of the time it’s like watching health bars yo-yo and trying to gauge if the healer is going to lose it. 
rustic geyser
we doin things
tribal blade
i felt bad at first but then remembered i'm doing this shit on like 14-15 haha
so the tree takes so much longer to phase
it's actually such a conundrum, whenever i send my cds on pull into the boss the tree takes too long to phase
and when i send all my cds on pull into the tree the tree phases way too fast to get cds back
and since i'm pugging i can't predict what the other dps are gonna do
lilac stag
I enjoy that there are CD choices with those packs into boss, but it really is all over the place in a pug with what is most beneficial.
at least for vault keys it won’t matter in the end
tribal blade
you kinda need to discuss it beforehand with the other dps
because if say you're playing with an ele playing 3 min ascendance
they can't send on pull and have to sit on their cd
lilac stag
NA pugs you’re luck for a “hey”. Hahaha
tribal blade
so you're better off putting everything into the tree on pull
tribal blade
NA pugs you’re luck for a “hey”. Hahaha
haha fair enough
although once you get into higher keys people actually respond to that shit haha
lilac stag
I think we also hit the drop off point where people don’t care about m+
just a task
Unless you’re pushing
tribal blade
this season is very tough
for pushing
i'm starting to see the breakpoint of where people who aren't title caliber are getting stuck
around the ~3100 range
or the mid 3100
this season is very unforgiving on mistakes
i've been invited by 2 seperate groups of players to push with them this week for a few keys
who are around that IO
and they can't cut it, it's pretty bad on their end
lilac stag
our shaman hit 3000 and just said fuck it
tribal blade
3k in itself is a feat
lilac stag
I still need to get my portals, but actual desire to do so is sooooooo low. I want to game to have fun and it’s just not.
tribal blade
i helped a friend do a 13 CoT today to push his key back up, and the players you get for 13s are pretty horrendous
i can't imagine what it's like at 10
tribal blade
yeah interrupts are once again vitally important
since they changed how cc works
i actually just recently set up a focus kick WA
and tailored it to my needs
it's helped a LOT
lilac stag
I’m hoping s2 gets better
tribal blade
i was struggling with kicks recently, and now it's mostly fixed
haha next season is looking hard already
lilac stag
could also be season change shit too brining mental down
tribal blade
the dungeon pool is rough
lilac stag
darkness at 4pm is no good
topaz raptor
yeah the dungeon pool feels like it is just overwhelming aoe damage
every single key is just insane amounts of aoe damage hitting the whole group
if you never wipe, your damage doesn't matter because the timers are so easy
but you can make up for a wipe by doing good damage i guess lol
lilac stag
tuning, as always, gonna be interesting.
I wonder what the devs think of how this season’s balancing has gone.
vestal escarp
Im gonna do 10s next season
Already decided
Unless sub is turbometa
Shit rotation
Mechagon and junkyard i hate them so much
topaz raptor
mage somehow became the worst
vestal escarp
Cleft and priory already felt like shit
short radish
fuck doing ToP
lilac stag
I haven’t even looked at the loot pool, what are trinkets looking like?
short radish
Cleft and priory already felt like shit
SURE CANT WAIT TO HAVE 0 UPTIME BETWEEN 1ST AND 2ND BOSS
hollow snow
i dont see any 1.5 trinkets
lilac stag
ToP makes me want to strangle myself.
hollow snow
theater pvp minigame kekw
vestal escarp
I know i can tolerate a 10 next season
hollow snow
triple dr cheap shot
lilac stag
I know i can tolerate a 10 next season
ToP was giga struggles in pug vaulter range before
topaz raptor
save flag and blades for the pvp minigame
hollow snow
the pvp flag boss is the only fun part
tribal blade
ToP is a complicated dungeon
doing that place at title range was truly hell on earth
sly shore
I think it was one of the best MDI viewing dungeons though
Every team had a different strats
tribal blade
it's interesting to watch because the routing is quite unique
tribal blade
yeah everyone had different ideas on how to min max the banners
that was a big part of the routing
also how you got lust where you needed it
hollow snow
always had to have a dk
tribal blade
considering you could go several different ways
hollow snow
to MC the buff bro
tribal blade
i have had so many bricks in that place to bronn
spawning on pvp boss
you jump down after the boss
and bronn or a pet runs down the corridor and pulls the pat you shrouded
and key's over
hollow snow
lmao that sounds goated
tribal blade
bronn was a true menace
sly shore
the pvp boss 
"Okay I will die fast"
proceeds to unload my entire rotation and stun lock them
tribal blade
dude watching people actually try to fight each other
sly shore
aka I lied
tribal blade
when you're trying to get them back up asap to kill the boss and banner
was infuriating
dude i do remember sub was complete dogshit on the 1st boss
like, so bad
sly shore
Unless you pulled the trash on it
tribal blade
yeah true, i forgot about that
but once the trash was dead
you're just doing no damage
well, WERE
sly shore
not any more
tribal blade
sub will be fine on that boss now
sly shore
tribal blade
perfectly fine
that's a trickster key if i've ever seen one
flurry is gonna fix so many issues sub had in that entire key
lilac stag
accurate prayer
tribal blade
do you think they'd rework trickster? i feel like DS would be the main target
because DS is fucking horrible
but trickster also needs some love
lilac stag
how “horrible” is it on assa
sly shore
I'd rather see trickster be build entirely around sectech
sly shore
cos pressing bs in aoe
tribal blade
it's actually such a dogshit system
sly shore
🤢
tribal blade
yeah i want to see UB be procced by storm
lilac stag
outlaw is using fate ye?
lilac stag
Tweak each for each spec and don’t reinvent the wheel
lilac stag
I’d be curious if anyone who is big feels for sub actually doesn’t like trickster and wants to run DS (more than just thematically)
the rupturing kills me
tribal blade
i don't miss playing DS as sub at all
because building to 7 CPs during dance for DN is so bad
upper narwhal
honestly coup isn't the problem for Outlaw Trickster anymore, it's the reliance on Killing Spree, horrid talent
tribal blade
also needing to cast evis for no aoe dam is pretty bad
tribal blade
honestly coup isn't the problem for Outlaw Trickster anymore, it's the reliance ...
that's right, i forgot about needing to use KS
fuu was saying that's the highest priority rogue change that needs to happen
lilac stag
people used to not have an issue with KS. Now everyone old and arthritic and KS sucks. Haha
lilac stag
ye
tribal blade
so the rotation was piss easy
vivid cobalt
Did they announce the s2 dungeons?
tribal blade
Did they announce the s2 dungeons?
yeah should be on wowhead
fun fact, they're bringing back mechagon workshop AGAIN
because bringing it back during S4 SL wasn't enough
i'm actually in shock at that decision
lilac stag
Mental fart, I enjoyed outlaw when you were going for red buff
Legit can’t remember talent
tribal blade
uhhhhh
lilac stag
Internal memory leak hahaha
tribal blade
bandit's guile?
lilac stag
Ye
tribal blade
that was a weird system
lilac stag
I liked trying to game around it
tribal blade
it was strangely convoluted
lilac stag
it was strangely convoluted
Perfect rogue design. 
tribal blade
Perfect rogue design. <:OMEGAKEKW:829051106361344021>
t r u e
have to keep the theme going for rogue
nothing can be simple
lilac stag
I genuinely don’t know what your would do with the spec to keep the 80 apm zoomers happy and actually slow the spec to grow and develop more.
I’d really like to see assa get more emphasis on casting bleeds as well.
tribal blade
there's some simple things i would like to see happen to sub
35 energy storm again
storm affects WM and inev
maybe buff deepening
those 3 changes i would be very happy
lilac stag
WM flurry
tribal blade
it's so weird how with sub we have so many things that should interact, but they don't
lilac stag
I’d love to seem them iterate on the bugs and then make tweaks
The current base of trickster is very good
Storm outside of dance energy is awful
tribal blade
i feel like bug fixing is way more difficult for them to do
considering how rare it is they actually bug fix
tribal blade
Storm outside of dance energy is awful
yes this is a problem
lilac stag
I agree, but also thinking ok a middle ground
tribal blade
that's fair 😉
they could literally tack it onto an existing talent
i dunno, imp storm
boom
lilac stag
Just random thought, I wonder how much of a concern is with lowering the cost that it would make “funnel” too good again.
They could do some shit where cost stays the same, but finishers excluding evicerate refunds energy
haughty mural
because i cba to deal with the bug anymore
lilac stag
so you would be encouraged to get your ruptures out and maybe press BP outside of dance without it feeling awful
lilac stag
didnt even realized as i went from rs to wm for some keys
I’m sorry.
haughty mural
well i'm not too surprised tho
short radish
I’d be curious if anyone who is big feels for sub actually doesn’t like trickste...
me, if I wanted to play cleave as a rogue i'd play assi. I enjoyed my black powder spam it was comfy + having a pure ST spec was also really nice.
Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy how trickster has solved a lot of our 2-3 target cleave issues, but I still prefer the DS "rotation"
lilac stag
Oh I totally get that, but I rather seem them try to work in some way to make BP useful which I think they could do
lilac stag
Or charge it up per evicerate cast
short radish
for longer than 3 days
each target hit by BP makes your next evis do 12% more damage?
up to 5 targets
lilac stag
No. Each evicerate cast adds a charge (pick a dmg amp percent) to Bp dmg
hazy breach
Thing about DS is that the eviscerate from darkest night actually does more than BP up until very high target counts
lilac stag
Stack up to 3 / 5 times whatever
hazy breach
But i feels real bad since its only a pure ST spell
short radish
mhmm true
i dunno
i just miss bp spam
was very mongo bongo
dont need to worry about positioning
lilac stag
I’d just like a little more interaction so it’s not flat out spam
short radish
lilac stag
or just juice it and put it on a CD
haughty mural
and inbetween ?
sinful sluice
I wish i never tired assa rogue in m+
Now i cannot go back to sub…
I know its better in few dungeons but in overall assa feels so much better
hazy breach
Idk i think sub feels great rn in dungeons
hazy breach
If blades worked on nimble so our aoe burst was a little bit more distinguishable from a pure st one it would be close to perfect
round latch
so smooth and cozy
also idk whats wrong with 10-11s rn
mobs die in 5 seconds
i cba bleedding them out
no time to juice
grizzled hornet
!bugs
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue
grizzled hornet
does anyone encounter a strange interraction during vanish? for example i vanish to ss during opener but it just doesn't allow me as it breaks stealth
haughty mural
i cba bleedding them out
i dont even bother spreading before burst#
round latch
i dont even bother spreading before burst#
sin needs to vanish to extend them bleeds and mobs dont live that much
i kinda need higher keys now
like 12-13
qued some 10-11s with surv hunter and boomy
packs died in seconds
and surv stole my dmg with the stupid bombs
ended up losing to the boomy,not by alot but lost still
need an ego boost
haughty mural
gap them in boss dmg i guess
round latch
sin is average and boomy was 5/8M
ended up getting them PIs
ill show them how its done next time dw
stupid@ss surv
plush roost
Just play outlaw hehe
You'll wreck everyone in overall when packs die and you're always in subterfuge hehe
round latch
im an original outlaw main but no,dont think so
dagger guys are much more reasonable
too much toxicity in the pirate channel
hollow snow
Yeah survival getting slept on
round latch
survival is for ppl that made a mistake picking up hunter and now they want a melee
never in my groups from now on
summer mica
!up
wicked joltBOT
hard ember
sin needs to vanish to extend them bleeds and mobs dont live that much
i swear in lower keys you just pop as fast as you can
round latch
i swear in lower keys you just pop as fast as you can
i dont talk less than 10s on my rogue now but ye,its like idk
stuff dies in the blink of an eye
hard ember
like legit i swear garrote garote kb rupture muti fok env is real
round latch
dks,hunters,mages
hard ember
yeah i mean in 10s
round latch
like even in 10s
ive been queitly observing my bleed extends
they literally dont juice more than 4-5sec
hard ember
https://i.imgur.com/lmwP9ST.png (ilevel, i don't raid anymore smadge)
round latch
packs get deleted
round latch
dont worry about it,it makes sense
they steal ur dmg
esepcially dks
just stupid dmg
blows up everything
also some cringe@ss tanks chainpulling 2 mobs at a time
a considerable factor for killing ur dmg
hard ember
i think 2 is fine if they survive long enough enough for you to get sob value
i tell the homies that if they're gonna chain actually chain and don't be wishy washy about it
like if you're gonna trail a mob at 5% hp into the next pack i will queue my mic and call you names etc
round latch
i think its understatement that 2 mob chainpulling kills our dps
hard ember
i swear in lower keys you just pop as fast as you can
https://i.imgur.com/EyHyxqm.png like i swear this is valid
and i could have probably gone even faster
round latch
and i could have probably gone even faster
yup
hard ember
like garrote kb rupture is probably real
round latch
im always going into buttons depended the density
i might go gar=>rup=>fok=>ct mut in 3 mobs
to ramp fast
my dps averages otu eventually but what u say is legit
need to send asap
hard ember
tbh if it's not chunky mobs, garrote kb rupture muti ct
assumin you get the bonespike
round latch
yeah thats a given
hard ember
and then depending on how it's going you can choose to not shiv
round latch
its the only thing that enables me to
hard ember
to hopefully extend the mob's life
round latch
yup
hard ember
the joke in my guild is "who killed my kingsbane target" whenever we're doin weeklies and anyone gets their cd scuffed by anything dying too fast
like whenever someone's ascendance or breath is still going and the pack's dead, or if there's an infernal walking around like a tourist, etc
seomthing i've thought about but i haven't done yet is i've considered shivving an off target
cuz theoretically your spatter dmg on that target would improve right
so you could maybe split the dmg up a bit
but it's probably a net neutral/veering towards bad cook
hazy breach
Better to just not shiv at all then
Usually is better to not shiv even the kb target
Unless you really need the prio damage
glossy turtle
what talents would you use for mists sub, like up until the first boss? just standart m+ build?=
pliant topaz
just the nromal build. take tfd over wm
glossy turtle
tfd, wm?
alpine wraith
the first dance
pliant topaz
the main difference between full single target buid is u take shadow focus over improved storm, and u take weapon master over the first dance
other than that, u run the same thing everywhere
there are no other alternate options really for sub
glossy turtle
ah okay
edgy zenith
I'm a WM enjoyer. TFD is too annoying for what it's worth
especially with the affixes fucking bricking you into combat forever so you can't stealth if orbs spawn at bad time
or random combat entrances with the other affix
but mists it probably owns
alpine wraith
tfd is quite strong but if you dont like it is fine
same with tornado
fuck that one
dry plank
This bugged new affixes are annoying as fuk. It’s break stealth in africa and put you in combat even if your group not fighting
plush roost
Tornado was great. I loved season 2. First i pressed tornado. Then, i went to the grocery store. After, i took a shower. Then after that i sit at my PC and check. Oh yes I still have a global to wait for. Then i cook dinner. Then finally the gcd is ready. And I press Dance, Black Powder, Sec Tec, Black Powder, Black Powder. And I feel great
real panther
wtf is tfd?
vale pine
the first dance
real panther
oh ok. And why is it a subject lately? 😄 is it good now? always looked shit to me
grave abyss
it got changed last patch and now it's good
real panther
good? what gain do you have hover the talent you replace?
uneven scarab
its kinda situational but when its good its good
hollow snow
I just wish the out of combat required to trigger it was lowered
real panther
I know i'm controvercial about this but: talent trees are "fake" free will imo
uneven scarab
There’s def some truth to that
real panther
I prefere to put a disclaimer in case i get bashed x)
hollow snow
No ur right
hollow snow
Sin right now is chillin
uneven scarab
15 talent builds
hollow snow
Yup
sacred yarrow
I know i'm controvercial about this but: talent trees are "fake" free will imo
for us here no, for the casual that does world content and doesnt know what a wowhead is, it is
hollow snow
More like 1500 builds
grave abyss
tfd is a good option mostly because weaponmaster kind of doesn't do anything. iirc you only need to get tfd combat resets a handful of times in an M+ for it to be better
grave abyss
of course, in pure single target, you only get tfd once and weaponmaster much more over a fight
hard ember
fuck that one
wait you don't like tornado?
uneven scarab
Tornado some ass
hard ember
Weaponmaster makes you feel good in single target which is underrated
real panther
tornado boring
hollow snow
Ayo take theatre of pain and give us academy
hollow snow
Pvp mini game goated
hard ember
if you measure fun by how often you can kidney your friends, yeah it's pretty great
hollow snow
That's it
uneven scarab
I love that dungeon
hard ember
otherwise not really
uneven scarab
if you measure fun by how often you can kidney your friends, yeah it's pretty gr...
Exactly
keen dome
The year is 2028. We are in the final season of Midnight. It's brought Al'geth back. The same season Blizz removed Tornado from Sub. 
keen dome
ALL HALLS
hard ember
The year is 2028. We are in the final season of Midnight. It's brought Al'geth b...
tornado reworked to generate extra combo points when you shuriken storm in cds or something boring 💀
uneven scarab
Just make it an actual aoe ability pls
keen dome
They have the potential to do the single funniest april fools joke in gaming history
Which is make the ALL HALLS a reality for a week during april fools.
hard ember
tbh like if it refunded combo points when you pressed BP in dance or soemthing that could be fine i guess
hollow snow
Yo are there even any 1.5 min agi trinkets in the m+ loot table season 2?
I never checked
hollow snow
I don't recall the new ones having it either
hollow snow
Ok gg
uneven scarab
Bigtime gg
hard ember
are the raid trinkets previewed yet
hollow snow
Guys ping me at fated
uneven scarab
We lose tier set and 1.5 min trinket
hard ember
maybe there will be something there 💀
uneven scarab
Its joever
alpine wraith
tier set is not that big
alpine wraith
but yea transmitter will be a fun one to replace
hollow snow
I'm not paying 200k to the bm hunter that rolls need on a 1.5 trinket ever again
hard ember
yeah it'll be really fun to not have a buggy minigame 
uneven scarab
Next tier set full flat profile inc
real panther
tier set is not that big
I swear my alt do almost same dps as my 4p main
hard ember
time for a GLOOMBLADE tier set 
hard ember
i mean what was holding it back was actually flensing
hollow snow
on god if the 4pc bonus reduced the cost of shuriken id buy Activision stock
hard ember
that's a certified blizzard hood classic for sure
uneven scarab
yes very intended
hazy breach
oh ok. And why is it a subject lately? 😄 is it good now? always looked shit to ...
4 seconds of extra dance is good.
WM is practically useless on anything that isnt pure ST, and even in a pure 5 min ST sim tfd isnt very far behind it
alpine wraith
yea tfd if you even can get 2 procs every 6 min it is very worth
hazy breach
Which you are going to get in pretty much every dungeon
ornate quest
I've noticed that my Secret Technique triggers before my Cold Blood on my macro. is there a way to fix it?
hazy breach
Place cold blood before it in the macro
ornate quest
it is before
hazy breach
But CB isnt going on cd until you cast a spell, so youre probably just seeing it not being on cd and thinking its not getting used
ornate quest
oh, that may be why. I just look at my cooldown tracker and notice that secret technique enters cooldown before Cold blood
glossy turtle
3x^2-12x+11
can I send blades, and cds in mits first boss? thinking for keys above 12. Like will I get them back in time usually for lust phase?
alpine wraith
nope you wont get back them usually
glossy turtle
damn
alpine wraith
but you can do that anyway
to help get droman to 20% what i do is send cds on ingra and just let cleave go into droman
glossy turtle
yeeah
alpine wraith
then when it breaks i send mandate and likely have cb again
glossy turtle
hmm ok
but if I just cleave the tree dude, down and focus boss. it still wont result in blades coming back up in time?
alpine wraith
well depends most people dont bother to phase him super late
glossy turtle
yeah I mean only if I did it
glossy turtle
If you're not sending cd's on ingra don't bother doing the key
what are you talking about
glossy turtle
so what if I only sent cds on ingra translates to me not wanting to send cds on ingra?
sly shore
?
glossy turtle
have you read the whole thing?
glossy turtle
so what suggests I dont want to send cds on ingra?
pulsar sky
guys which are the best 2 embellishment for sub rogue?
glossy turtle
If you're not sending cd's on ingra don't bother doing the key
this just came out of nowhere...
sly shore
the conclusion to be drawn from what I said is to send on ingra no matter what
topaz raptor
You can’t send blades on droman
topaz raptor
50-60s is standard
sly shore
crazy
glossy turtle
it was just soo random. Cause nothing suggested I wasnt going to. That is like saying. well if you dont want to deal dmg, then dont play m+
topaz raptor
You guys are probably just agreeing with each other
lilac stag
Now kiss
alpine wraith
lilac stag
guys which are the best 2 embellishment for sub rogue?
If you’re a baller. Focusing lense. If you’re an assa simp. Darkmoon
left ledge
it was just soo random. Cause nothing suggested I wasnt going to. That is like s...
He’s saying you want to burn ingra and nothing else matters
Not having cds for the biggest burst phase is not a good idea
Sub rogue is probably the burstiest spec in the game rn
You really want to capitalize on that
You can send a dance or two on tree, as long as you can guarantee your cds for ingra
dry plank
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
hazy breach
The ideal way to play the boss as sub is to use CDs on the boss on pull and then have the amp phase at 1:30 > next amp phase at 3:00
left ledge
Yes but that will never happen
Unless your group coordinates that
Tree usually phases too early
hazy breach
Its usually 1:10-1:15
left ledge
For a 12?
hazy breach
Prob not for a 12
left ledge
Yeah well if you’re doing higher ofc it’ll be group dependent
But for most pug keying around 12 just save for the burn
left ledge
Nah you won’t 1 phase but second phase will prob be very low
I would very much take comp into consideration too
patent crystal
do u need to hit small adds in p3 ansurk to actually do dmg to them, feels like my sectech isnt hitting them when i use on boss
alpine wraith
if they are far enough you wont hit them yes
hazy breach
Sectech typically wont hit them unless theyre like ring of peace close
But your nimble cleave is gonna hit them if you stand inbetween them and the boss
patent crystal
okay thanks
hazy breach
Typically though youre there for the boss damage, and it can be a good idea to stand on the opposite side to try to bait webs there
Depends on how much add vs boss dmg you have ofc
glossy turtle
@hazy breach do you play sub throughout all dungeons or just sub on some?
lucid jackal
Probably only sub
hazy breach
I think its fine to play in all keys
But GB and SV i play assa in when pushing
And first half of nw
glossy turtle
I dont play it was just wondering? 🙂 idk if shuriken storm was less cost I think I would try sub
glossy turtle
And first half of nw
not last 2 bosses?
hazy breach
I dont feel like it matters much with the cost
hazy breach
not last 2 bosses?
Assa is horrid on last boss
fallow nimbus
The assa rogue explained to me what he has to do with DN to not lose marks at queen mythic
Who plays that must be insane
glossy turtle
I think its fine to play in all keys
Any good sub streamers doing high keys, i can watch?
vale pine
most streamers play assassiantion
kush sometimes switches to sub for fun
also causualaddict and some switch in certain dungeons to sub mid key
assassination is just overall the stronger option and sub is as such not that popular
glossy turtle
I also plan to stick with assa, i just wanted to see what it looked like in a high key environment. Like 15 and up
Iill check out kush
lilac stag
it will look the same as in 12+ keys. Get a few ruptures out. Burst down a target. Rinse and repeat.
glossy turtle
Yeah but its mostly just what happens when trash lasts a long time
lilac stag
you send cds if it takes them down. You hold if they’re almost dead.
There’s generally not a lot of thinking with it.
Dance and SoD are short
Relatively speaking
glossy turtle
Ig with 2 charges of dance, and 3 with symvols you dont go deal that fast, orr?
Like i mean run out of energy
scarlet trellis
anyone else vanish just break randomly after cloaking
quartz tartan
Hello can i macro symbol of Death and shadow dance or is thst terrible
hazy breach
Its not great
You want to use them seperately everytime when you do your second dance in your burst
thick temple
Hello can i macro symbol of Death and shadow dance or is thst terrible
Sometimes in opener u want to reproc dance while sod has more than 3 seconds active
quartz tartan
Ahh
hazy breach
And/or when your sectech has more than 10s left, in which case you'd end up spending your superchargers on eviscerates and not sectech
Which isnt ideal
grave abyss
does Bubbling wax out scale Whetstones still?
I doubt it, whetstone is stats (therefore scales in aoe) and bubbling is flat damage split between targets
to my knowledge wax has always been slightly worse, but hey, it's free
strange chasm
Ok the sub/sin strat kinda good for keys with good respawn points. Siege last boss NW kinda good.
still drift
!wa
edgy hearth
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns.
The following macros are an exception:yaml /cast Cold Blood /cast Secret Technique
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.
run 639 skardyns or 626 transmitter?
transmitter always
mint moon
transmitter always
sounds bueno
strange chasm
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
dawn robin
TIL you can shadow step behind the Winged Guardians in NW
pliant topaz
!wa
quaint lodge
Can somebody explain this coup de grac thing to me, is it just saying to send evis on like 1 CP?
quaint lodge
So whats the play with it? Just send it higher, or use it after one builder?
lucid jackal
send it like u would normal finishers
quaint lodge
Okay, thanks 🙂
Learning sub feels weird, the shadow dances feel nice, but the downtime feels so bad
lucid jackal
That's not a bug, that's a feature!
lucid jackal
YESSIR!
quaint lodge
lmfao
wind canopy
I'd take that tradeoff. Weaker downtime for bigger burst 
wind canopy
hollow snow
Lower shuriken cost
spark tusk
Spamming backstab
Aftering playing assa a bunch I'm used to moments of pooling, sometimes I'll just pool as sub with 5 combo points and wait to finish
not for any logical reason
it's just what I've trained my brain to do
quaint lodge
Pooling on assass has options though and decisions to make, pooling on sub is just sitting there praying for ur next hit
wind canopy
Just need to chill outside of CDs. Not like you’re gonna be doing the same amount of damage as you would during those major CDs with dance/SoD/ST alone
prime glen
i noticed warcraftlogs has a lot of people using transmittor and void reapers over the double on use
is that optimal? or certain bosses? or could be due to drops/not clearing mythic raid and getting the drop?
wind canopy
Why would you want double on-use when you have transmitter covering your 1.5 min CDs? Aside from maybe using Mad Queen’s Mandate?
craggy quest
my shaman was floor pov bro 
thick temple
In dungeons, when fighting packs of 7+ enemies, am I supposed to strictly use shuriken to build cp? Not sure when to use shuriken over ss/backstab on different packs. Is my objective to spread the cleave nimble fury debuff?
hazy breach
Shadowstrike in dance (or when its available with vanish/restealths)
Shuriken storm outside dance if there are 2 or more targets
thick temple
Shuriken storm outside dance if there are 2 or more targets
Out of dance I'm confused, I thought the shuriken is supposed to spread fazed status so nimble fury can take effect? Am I misunderstanding something?
hazy breach
Fazed has nothing to do with nimble
thick temple
O
hazy breach
Its flawless form, a buff on you that enables it
Yes its stupid that theres multiple debuffs/buffs
But it is what it is
thick temple
Maybe need to reread
What's the debuff I'm spreading onto hit enemies called
Lastly, if there is ever more than 2 targets on screen, there is no reason to backstab?
lucid jackal
What's the debuff I'm spreading onto hit enemies called
There are 3 components
prime glen
Why would you want double on-use when you have transmitter covering your 1.5 min...
That’s what I was thinking but I know Fuu’s BiS list had double on use. Treacherous over mandate I’m assuming still tho
lucid jackal
- Theres Unseen blade, which procs fazed on the target and grants 1 stack of Escallating Blade, which is Coup
- Fazed is a debuff that causes the target to take bonus damage, and be unparryable
- Flawless form is a buff that is given to you when you proc Unseen Blade, or use Secret Technique. It stacks but doesn't refresh and gives you finisher damage, and activates Nimble Flurry
wind canopy
That’s what I was thinking but I know Fuu’s BiS list had double on use. Treacher...
Even if it's fuu's "bis" list, shouldn't be taking it as the gold standard. It's just for numbers sake and comparisons between the spec. Not a mandate on what you should be using.
lucid jackal
Transmitter and then any 2nd trinket really
Contract, Egg, Mandate
They all kinda do the same thing, have their own pros and cons
fair stump
How does warcraftlogs assign a parse without seeing the log itself on M+?
hazy breach
Because the "parses" are based of the key level and how fast you did it
Not how much damage you did
hazy breach
How much dps damage you did
fair stump
So the parse % is dps across all ilvls?
hazy breach
Yes
fair stump
I see, thanks
spark tusk
you want contract cause the proc looks the coolest 
vale pine
i wish some of this seasons boss/item procs would be for abilities of rogue
short radish
dw im sure they will learn from this season of what was good and what wasnt good
iterate on it for future seasons
and not throw it all away
vale pine
there was a interview recently about rewards in s2
they are happy with how delves work out, what surprises me tbh
round latch
no they didnt,thats just me sniffing on some hopium
tribal blade
this fucking special ragnaros prot pal
drags the orb mini boss in DB +15 away from under the bridge
and pulls it into a corner
for absolutely no reason
i have never seen a tank move that pack away from where you start the pull
vale pine
pug tanks
short radish
for absolutely no reason
probably to avoid being knocked back
tribal blade
probably to avoid being knocked back
the mini boss that puts an orb on 1 person
short radish
oh
tribal blade
does that mini boss knock back?
tribal blade
that pull
you literally jsut tank it where it starts
and absolutely do not move
because you have 2 straight lanes for the orb to go down
tepid trellis
Transmitter and then any 2nd trinket really
where queen video? 
lucid jackal
Queen got mega nerfed and my vid felt useless
I had it all recorded and everything but then the fight became so easy I felt theres no point in it :(
lucid jackal
Next szn Ill probably do it the day of the kill
Or day after
Since we did reallyw ell this tier
I just wasn't expecting us to do so well ig
tepid trellis
just do a cooldown explanation video
farm the rev
going over like Silken and Queen
prolly alot of people that get confused on those
tepid trellis
Next szn Ill probably do it the day of the kill
OR YOU KNOW WHAT
make a video explaining how you go into bosses and what you look for and prepare
that would be good
for lower wr people
deff has an audience
lucid jackal
prolly alot of people that get confused on those
Hall of fame just closed
Do ppl care still
tepid trellis
most of the people who would watch are not HoF players xD
lucid jackal
also I can't even do a good silken CD usage video because our guild does the worst strat of all time and trolls my cooldowns as hard as possible
I could do a queen video tho
vernal yoke
Does The Rotten make both Weaponmaster shadowstrikes crit, if it procs? Anyone know?
lucid jackal
P sure it just got filled this week
I think over 100 guilds killed is just this week
short radish
also theres still another 1000 guilds that will kill this between now and end of tier
thats like 800 rogues who want to watch your video
short radish
ayyyyy
lucid jackal
Busy the next few days
rapid crystal
maybe i am dumb and don't understand something again, but sometimes when I am doing group content I get a combo point while auto attacking. Is this some latency stuff where a "forgotten" shadow techniques CP was added late or am I missing something?
rapid crystal
huh okay 😄
tepid trellis
yes
hazy breach
Its very possible 19 guilds could kill it today
round latch
yup sure,was jut moved by what guy said
short radish
https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com/en-us/game/hall-of-fame/mythic-raid/nerubar-palace
better to rely on blizzard for HoF
lots of fake chinese guilds
lucid jackal
17 guilds easily kill it today lol
Over 100 guilds have killed it this week
and with it closing they are going to add today
round latch
yeah but u claimed it just closed,im not saying they cant
lucid jackal
fair
round latch
with all the love in the world ofc 🫶
tepid trellis
WEll the chinese guilds aren't fake
some of em are
there are "bus" guilds
which they remove
tribal blade
my guild just started silken prog, surely we're gonna get HoF right
alpine wraith
silken is annoying im there jailed
tribal blade
it feels alright to me so far
the most annoying thing was my ISP was shitting the bed the entire day today
vale pine
surely
tribal blade
so i was lagging and it would fuck up my opener
my favorite part is shrouding across the room to give both teams shroud 🙂
tribal blade
and yet someone people still find a way to not make it in the ring in time
tepid trellis
just the same shit over and over again
tribal blade
yeah feels pretty good so far
tribal blade
haha they are mind soothing
i honestly have no idea how people aren't making it in time
i keep telling them i'm giving everyone shroud
which is 100% increased move speed
and you can stand right up against the boss with mind soothe AND shroud going
keen dome
Maybe they're scared of bugs
tribal blade
maybe
tribal blade
yeah you can literally be kissing the bosses
fierce minnow
silken is annoying im there jailed
same 😄
round latch
sub's better than sin in court right?
fierce minnow
statistics have them even
hazy breach
12s of amp is annoying for sub
fierce minnow
oh and no deathstalkers mark cringe
hazy breach
Since you typically have roughly 12 seconds inbetween your sectechs
So 14 or 15s wouldve been significantly better
sly shore
I prefer sub on silken court just so I don't have to deal with deathstalkers mark
alpine wraith
yea that is a secret tech i wanted to explain
to just save sht for the long bursts
"just think about everything you do now will be less than doing double there"
fierce minnow
always did that for intermission on fyrakk and went in there with 14 stacks
whats really annoying is nimble flurry range
alpine wraith
im in red team so i dont even hit the mobs ahaha
fierce minnow
if the 2 bosses arent stacked very close you dont hit both
alpine wraith
nimble is coming from you so you have to be closer sometimes yes
fierce minnow
yeah same, i barely hit any mobs
ye and being closer is dangerous if you collide with a blue
or being too close in the middle so you catch a dispell
wasnt there something about its range being fixed soon?
alpine wraith
dont think so
fierce minnow
or was that just aknowledged that it didnt get the same range treatment blade flurry got
hazy breach
wasnt there something about its range being fixed soon?
No that was blade flurry
fierce minnow
ah damn
pirates
for that particular reason, caustic is better on that boss
or ovinax
it just hits everything more easily
sly shore
im in red team so i dont even hit the mobs ahaha
Just depends where your dk dps is
Ours is red team so blue team don't hit them
fierce minnow
damn, ours is blue
alpine wraith
dk on red is weird with so many ranged there
fierce minnow
so our enhancer (also blue) just destroys all those adds in seconds
alpine wraith
but no idea
sly shore
4 melee either side anyway
alpine wraith
usually adds will survive a bit always because they spawn with 80% dr
but not a lot
gaunt vortex
Yo is there a reason why most people cloak acid rain at 1.27 and not on pull? Looking at court logs
alpine wraith
to not spawn motes
also to not get 2 stacks of acid rain
you cloak either 2 or 3 cast
gaunt vortex
I was using it on 1st cast but what is the diff between 1st and 2-3rd, less space?
tepid trellis
set is more annoying than the first one
gaunt vortex
I see
glossy turtle
is assa and outlaw rly better at st then sub?
I thought sub was kinda thé single target spec
leaden prairie
outlaw suppremacy
glossy turtle
ig so
mint swift
I would think of Assa as ST
glossy turtle
Thought sub would be sooo much better
mint swift
With both of their CDs being Dots
plush roost
If thats kyveza sub is aids to play on it
tepid trellis
plush roost
So much lost shadowdance refunds
glossy turtle
yeah that is princess
plush roost
Tru
plush roost
Outlaw ST is actually pretty bangin. Did some 4fun outlaw keys and every boss i did 1.4-1.5 mil dam too
glossy turtle
huh. I was soo sure it would have been sub on top. But I havent played much rogue in raid, mostly DH
haughty mural
just crit more coups and sectechs
glossy turtle
so is it every optimal to play sub, on anything else then queen?
tribal blade
the issue with sub right now is the downtime is way too punishing it feels like
tepid trellis
optimal is a weird word
if you wanted to be "optimal" you would have to swap on a boss per boss basis
haughty mural
a little juice to deepening could help
tepid trellis
but then you would also need to EQUALLY good on all 3 specs
which nobody are
and equally good gear for all 3
and then go fuck it all on last two
and play sub
tribal blade
you can exclude the first half of the raid because it doesn't really matter
tepid trellis
on those
tribal blade
what you play on those bosses
modest river
!up
wicked joltBOT
glossy turtle
if you wanted to be "optimal" you would have to swap on a boss per boss basis
yeah but I would have thought that sub would do better for pure st, that is kinda what I mean. Not rly from boss to boss. and for like ovinax I would either play assa or outlaw.
but ig theyre not
tepid trellis
but would have made u think sub would be better?
fierce minnow
sub does well in any scenario that includes damage amps, if you tune sub to be on par with everything else on a normal basis, it will be a smolderon situation all over again
tepid trellis
tbh
i dont think they are thinking that far ahead
considering what they are letting enhance do atm
fierce minnow
ye enhance is cracked xD
glossy turtle
but would have made u think sub would be better?
Well its just more st dmg. last time I played other then this season, like some days ago. I played in df. And if im not wrong, nimble wasnt there. and outlaw and assa have cleave, right? so it was just an assumption.
tribal blade
holy shit i actually completely predicted what happened in ep 6 of arcane
certified genius over here
glossy turtle
not even s1?
tribal blade
no spoilers no worries
it's just so funny, i actually called what was gonna happen to a guildie
and now he's laughing about it
since i'm caught up now
fierce minnow
haha
glossy turtle
havent been going crazy over this season tbh. I am like 4 episodes in. I mean it is cool n stuff. Just finished the 4th episode
tribal blade
i think it's incredible
feels like they keep turning the dial
and it doesn't stop
near junco
I just asked in the assassination channel, but can not get a clear answer: When is an ability AOE for feint purposes? Is it indicated by 'Radius' on the wowhead page for an ability?
For example: Heaving Retch from Blightbone in NW. Someone said "It is not AOE because it is targeted" and right after, someone else says "It is AOE if it damages in an area of effect".
But Heaving retch targets someone and becomes a cone of damage after. So is this an AOE and will feint reduce the damage by 40% or is it not? This is why it would be nice to go of an indicator on wowhead for the spell. Or have a list of abilities that feint reduces by 40%.
alpine wraith
the answer is: you have to search or ask
because there are a lots of things that may seem aoe but are nt
near junco
Yeah, that's why i'm trying to find out on wowhead. The only thing I can think of that indicates AOE is the 'radius' indicator (f.e. in this image for heaving retch)
glossy turtle
i think it's incredible
that is great to hear! 🙂 I personally just hold it up to s1 which I thought was incredible. But hey I still hav 2 more episodes, who knows
tribal blade
I just asked in the assassination channel, but can not get a clear answer: When ...
heaving wretch is weird, 1 sec let me link something
near junco
I know about the 1 sec cloak interaction because it is an attack and not a spell, but i'm just wondering for feint now
tribal blade
you can use this site
near junco
Oh, great!! That's perfect, tysm.
Because spew disease from rotspew is also very weird to me
tribal blade
seems like spew disease is not aoe dam
since if you click on/off elusiveness the damage taken changes
near junco
Yeah, i've died to spew disease with feint up
because 20% was not enough
the pool it leaves is aoe, the ability itself is targeted
tribal blade
interestingly the site doesn't take into account that if you use evasion on the heaving wretch you dodge it completely
thankfully this season isn't really a big 1 shot type of season
like in previous seasons
S3 of DF was a crazy one for 1 shots
literally everything was a 1 shot
tribal blade
i barely played bfa because they nuked sub haha
alpine wraith
you can get 1 shot by 3 or 4 diff things just in the first zone
tribal blade
i don't remember that place well
alpine wraith
grease gun being a cool meme of the time
tribal blade
well good thing is rogue is pretty good at dealing with 1 shots 😉
alpine wraith
and throw money etc
real python
S3 of DF was a crazy one for 1 shots
ironically the season i got the most score in lol
alpine wraith
ah we will have fun on xav
tribal blade
that place is always an adventure
gonna have to memorize like 50 different routes for that place
literally every tank will want to do something different haha
lilac stag
Workshop (again)… ToP. Legit thinking about being done. I don’t want to put up with another shit m+ season just to raid.
tribal blade
next season does sound miserable
workshop is not an easy place
the last 2 bosses alone were always big brickers
lilac stag
The candle cart rp shit
tribal blade
i mostly don't like it because it looks visually like ass to me
but the consecrates on those mobs
is gonna be so toxic
candid pebble
how is sub compared to assa in delves ? i try to solo them
lilac stag
ez
tribal blade
way easier because you can perma tricks brann
lilac stag
you’re also more tanky
tribal blade
yeah double the amount of vers
candid pebble
way easier because you can perma tricks brann
like both spec or only sub can do it?
tribal blade
like both spec or only sub can do it?
only sub
as trickster
with so tricky talented in the hero tree
it basically turns brann into a tank for you, but you have to put up with him trying to perma kite mobs
and running around while kiting body pulling shit
and then yelling at you when he starts inting and you're dying
god i hate brann so much
real python
having to do ToP again
i think most of us have bad memories because the dungeon had annoying affixes back then, sanguine/bolstering/spiteful/inspiring
regal snow
Tyran top sucked
tribal blade
it was a rough place
it was one of the harder ones to time at higher key levels
it had 5 bosses
and they were hard bosses
real python
i played warrior most of that expansion so i didn't mind most of it
tribal blade
the routing was also quite complex
real python
yea had to skip before abomination boss iirc?