#subtlety

1 messages · Page 73 of 1

vale pine
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assassination is very much

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too similar to subtlety now

narrow shadow
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A lot of specs are running on the same philosophy of several burst windows

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makes it too similar

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the big window with all and then smaller ones that fit into the same loop

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and funnel 1 target with some kind dof cleave

vale pine
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also one not intuitive thing to many is

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melee uptime

viscid ocean
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what u guys did to kill zekvir on hard as sub rogue? i always die when i get debuff because i have to interrupt heal instead and have cd on vanish and cloak

vale pine
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a lot of people who try rogue come from classes that can absolutely not stand in melee for a bit

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and especially certain specs that reroll

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i see a very common pattern

narrow shadow
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that one is my gripe with CDR. It sounds like such a good concept, until you get punished for not having 1 gcd of uptime

vale pine
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where the player just isn't at the boss

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means he does not use abilities

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and does not generate sht stacks

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this is extremely punishing for sub

narrow shadow
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to be fair outlaw shares that problem

viscid ocean
vale pine
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yes, i was about to say

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outlaw has the exact same problem

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but they rely on uptime even more

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given that they also have a lot of maintainance stuff

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which needs 100% uptime because it needs to ramp up again when it drops

sinful sluice
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what did i do wrong here

4df993eedad873b4.gif
vale pine
sinful sluice
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i thought it was coup bug again but realized that i was playing assa

vale pine
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haha

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it looks like the coup bug

narrow shadow
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Havoc's theoretical highest ST build is the one with CDR for meta, but in practice it's rarely used because even losing one GCD puts it behind

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why CDR doesn't work in melees

vale pine
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i think its just very difficult to tune around

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e.g. numerically spoken

narrow shadow
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Sorry, extension for meta and CDR for eye beam

vale pine
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on pure single target

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assassination was the best rogue spec for multiple patches now

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and it has static cd's

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(technically outlaw was ahead in sim, but real world performance rarely matches that)

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what i am saying is not that assassiantion was badly tuned or anything

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but you don't get increased output with mechanics like cdr

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your spec will be tuned just like any other without

tribal blade
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best thing to do it literally just walk away and play it safe at that point

narrow shadow
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CDR works for ranged, MM has it on trueshot and it feels good

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for obvious reasons

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but on melee, yeah

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especially when standing for one milisecond where you are not suposed to is so punishing

tribal blade
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the issue with sub's cdr is we do not send cds on cd

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which is where cdr is actually good

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the entire point of cdr is if you play well, you get more casts of abilities

vale pine
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the cdr design is just very diffrent now

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legion introduced the cdr system

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and you had 3 charges of shadow dance

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but each charge was very short

narrow shadow
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CDR would work well in a world where you are rewarded for doing it properly, not punished by the otherwise

vale pine
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talents allowed you to have 2 or 3 charges

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and more burst with lower cdr

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or less burst with more cdr

tribal blade
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right now you're chasing the cdr just so you can do your rotation properly, and if you fall behind you're screwed

vale pine
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the baseline idea was to have dance for symbols every time

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but a lot of spare charges

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which you could dynamically use

short radish
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logs i was seeing without vanish in opener was just

ss -> flag -> rupture -> sblade/dance/symbols -> general rotation

vale pine
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missing some cdr wasn't that problematic because symbols was quite good

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(also because we had less damage amps in total)

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(and because it worked on items)

short radish
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though i might try out some ss-> evis -> spam backstab for a bit

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since we hold cds for a while anyway

vale pine
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the reason cdr is now meh

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is because we barely get more dances

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so the purpose changed

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instead of the design focusing in allowing you more dynamic in the use of spare charges

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we now try to align the few charges we get as efficient as possible

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it is why we have blank symbols casts sometimes

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one thing that is with all the things discussed earlier

viscid ocean
vale pine
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again not very intuitive

tribal blade
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they either need to buff deepening or just straight up remove cdr from dance

viscid ocean
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i wipe to not haveing any despell cds left at about 10% hp or bran just running throu the door and resetting boss 😄

vale pine
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its weird

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because if they remove cdr

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it might be worse gameplay

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because we atm can dance again fairly quick after the initial blades/flag

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while the dynamic becomes more rigit if you have static cooldowns

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maybe overall not too bad

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because you start the cdr soon enough for it to not matter

pliant topaz
vale pine
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there are some rly annoying bugs for sure

tribal blade
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that's rough

pliant topaz
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yea eleem found that

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if u proc it u waste 3 sht stacks

vale pine
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think its just a race condition

pliant topaz
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yeah sht gets processed first so wm eats it

vale pine
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yep, the calculation is before the proc

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so it does not consider it

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would be my guess

tribal blade
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jesus

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that's almost half your bar gone

clever delta
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so we are not playing wm now ^^

tribal blade
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i feel like they could make a cool talent to play off WM

pliant topaz
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nothing else to play over it

tribal blade
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where WM has like double the chance to proc while in dance or something

vale pine
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wm is good

cerulean beacon
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!opener

pliant topaz
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like in dance u often get 3 + 2 from sht

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or more

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i just dont like th ability, its kinda boring idk

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i wish we had more interactions with clones

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from sectech

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or somehow get a 3rd clone

vale pine
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we have many middle tier talents

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which are meh

tribal blade
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WM has gone through quite a few iterations if i remember correctly

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during legion it was something like 6% to every single ability

clever delta
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meanwhile asssa cant decide what to pick as every talent strong 😄

vale pine
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yes, legion wm was on every ability

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also we mostly played it for storm

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as it did proc per target hit

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and not per storm cast

tribal blade
vale pine
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thats intentional

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i go against most peoples opinions

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that e.g. assassination is just better designed

tribal blade
vale pine
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or other justifications why this is the case

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and say assassination had a lot more effort put into it during DF, it was the main actor

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and you see the results in 10.2 and this patch

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what i am not saying is it was bad to put the most effort to make sure every single talent is good and the spec is also good in every single content

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but it creates this DF problematic

clever delta
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i mean we have weak capstones and weak connecting talents

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everything weak beside the major one

vale pine
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DF created this problem

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talent trees are just a big time sink

pliant topaz
clever delta
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i just wanna get rid of replicating for m+ and there is nothing esle to pick

pliant topaz
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flag is a capstone

vale pine
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you have soo many talents which are just weak/meh

pliant topaz
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dm is a capstone

vale pine
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^

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dm/shadowcraft/flag are all rly good

clever delta
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what about our boy goeremax two

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goremaw

vale pine
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goremaw was a low effort try to fill the tree

pliant topaz
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not every cpastone needs to be a turbo giga 10000% dps gain

vale pine
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and it failed because of that

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goremaws is also not bad technically

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just does not solve a problem we have

clever delta
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rotten feel like shit too, but there is nothing else to pick

pliant topaz
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like one argument u can make is that, every talent we have is either mandatory(due to how strong it is or pathing) or useless and theres no in between

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its why our pure st is the same as our m+ build for example

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but thats both good and bad

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and its up to devs to decide if they want that

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i actually like rotten now

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strike hits relaly hard. trickster makes strike crits even harder

clever delta
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i liked PE, i liked when i pressed trinket i had higher chance to crit it

vale pine
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now it depended how much was iterated on

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how much time was spend in making the bad talents good

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all while maybe trying to fix core problems in design often

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in the end it leads to specs which are now gods

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because they got a lot more attention, and with every iteration one of their weaknesses removed

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or a new niche added on top of their existing ones

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and then there are a lot of specs below that with diffrent levels of development

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TWW just assumed the baseline is the same for all classes

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as if they are all equally well developed

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and added hero talents on top

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so now, its less likely that we see big reworks of the baseline tree

chrome fern
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im kinda sad that deathstalker didnt focus on rupture as opposed to evis/envenom

vale pine
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and more likely smaller updates to individual nodes, also for time constraints

vale pine
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rupture does good damage on deathstalker

chrome fern
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yeah but it's not the focus, as in DN

pliant topaz
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i dont think it needs a lot of work

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maybe make wm/inev work with storm

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fix bugs

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remove goremaw, put an aoe talent instead so we can pick it instead of rotten for keys and im happy.

keen dome
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Hell yeah

pliant topaz
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maybe make the aoe talent be some sort of cool thematic thing with clones

vale pine
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i am not saiyng sub is in dire need of change

keen dome
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Missing the most important change we need though, imo

vale pine
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but you see that the tree is way worse developed than for other classes or specs

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this does not matter as much

keen dome
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Replace SecTec's animation with the contract trinket animation.

pliant topaz
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oh give kyveza animations

vale pine
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because the talents we play

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are good and fun

haughty mural
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are you guys interested in a cook for our Dot situation ?

pliant topaz
vale pine
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some would need a rework to be better or less annoying, but thats about it

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like a good example

pliant topaz
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honestly, setorm -> inev/wm. blades->flurry/sectech. goremaw -> aoe talent. and specs perfect

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then give cooler animations (litearlly steal kyveza stuff)

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and its cheffs kiss

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not that miuch work

vale pine
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better animations would be rly nice

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the right path in the general tree

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its, and i am sorry if this sounds mean

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its completely useless

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and there was no effort put into making it any relevant for sub

pliant topaz
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its useless for sub but good for outlaw/ maybe for sin

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thats fine to me tbh

vale pine
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yes, again

pliant topaz
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not everything neds to be useful for everyone

vale pine
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its fine because what we play is good and fun

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but this does not mean other talents need to stay useless

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it is what assassiantion got

haughty mural
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Nightblade - Only useable on one target at a time. Finishing move that infects the target with shadowy energy, dealing massive Shadow damage over time. Deals its damage faster while Shadow Dance is active. If an enemy dies while afflicted by your Nightblade, you regain energy based on its remaining duration. Lasts longer per combo point.

Replicating Shadows - Periodic Damage from your Nightblade erupts, dealing 20% damage to nearby enemies. Reduced beyond x targets.

vale pine
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every patch it got 2-3 talents reworked to be relevant

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and now they have 8-10 talent options for mythic+

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while we have 1

haughty mural
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so assassination stays the multidot spec and rs bug is fixed on a sidenote and it is a cleave aoe talent

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we keep a strong finisher cuz finisher spec

chrome fern
vale pine
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the amount of customizability and niches covered are far diffrent as a result

heady quartz
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Can they remove rupture from sub ? Feels really awkward to use it

vale pine
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just rename it back to nightblade

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the reason sub has rupture is to have a bit of a nouance in rotation

pliant topaz
vale pine
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by having to keep track of a maintainance spell

pliant topaz
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  1. they have a trbo strong utlity competing with strong damage nodes
haughty mural
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what do you guys think ? it also gives it a bit more urgency in dance

pliant topaz
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  1. they give up ALOT of single target for aoe
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  1. they have to give up single target for qol/utility in subterfuge 2nd vanish
vale pine
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it is about having options

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to customize

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as you say, you can give up single target for aoe

chrome fern
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it looks like options, but it plays the same and does very little different, you cannot play without KB for instance

pliant topaz
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  1. u stil have to path through garbage like doomblade to get what u need
vale pine
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but the aoe is also the probably one of the best in game

vale pine
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not sure how good they are

pliant topaz
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im kinda with stealthi on that one. viable talents/ options etc is more of a curse

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sub right now does insnae single target in keys because it runs the same talents

vale pine
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yes, we are lucky to have low trade off design

pliant topaz
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good m+ specs generally sacrafice very little single target for aoe

vale pine
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in talents

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our aoe isn't that great

pliant topaz
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if anything the only trae off I would be happy wiht is rotten for big aoe in the capstone area

cedar rock
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I know you guys will probably say sim it but. I enjoy playing both sub and assa in keys recently. It’s suggested to go double dawnthread for embellishment for assa in keys but I was wondering how significant it would affect sub in keys cause I know our bis is still writhing band with weapon embel

vale pine
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embellishments are close

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so you can go for assassiantion for embellishments

cedar rock
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For sub ?

vale pine
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and won't rly matter for sub dps

cedar rock
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Ok nice nice

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Even in raid aswell?

vale pine
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sub is fine with focus lense, does decently with both silkens, the darkmoon weapon enchant is good....

haughty mural
vale pine
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e.g. tornado is in dire need of a rework

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i am not a big fan of inev

cedar rock
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So tldr going double dawnthread won’t do me dmg if I play sub rogue for keys and raid right ?

vale pine
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shadow focus seems weird

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i rather have 2nd vanish charge there

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makes a lot more sense

pliant topaz
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sure but those are kinda small

vale pine
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weaponmaster is meh

pliant topaz
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time investment in them would be large

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reward little

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i think inev could be very cool if it worked in aoe

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same with wm

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as in -> storm

vale pine
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goremaws would rly benefit from being replaced

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e.g. with the eon effect

pliant topaz
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sure replace goremaw/tornado

vale pine
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lingering shadows and pv

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both exist as a gatekeeping talent only

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to restrict pathing

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silent storm is useless

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should i go on?

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i still don't know why there is 6 sec requirement on tfd

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and thats a newly added talent

vale pine
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did bone spike need a rework?

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did subterfuge need one?

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did ttk need one?

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...

pliant topaz
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well for one thing sin has like 3 times the player base

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so any chane is 3 times more rewarding

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for the team

vale pine
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so what you are saying is, specs are not allowed to get updates if they are not popular enough

vagrant fulcrum
vale pine
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as a consequence of tuning and design decision the same team made?

vale pine
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its the same thing

vagrant fulcrum
vale pine
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we have talents simiarly bad

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its just as armin mentioned

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assassiantion has more followers and as such a higher chance of getting changes tailored at it

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subtlety is the least played spec in the game and as such needs to be fine with however little attention it gets

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tho i still argue its not in a bad spot

vagrant fulcrum
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They need to revisit sub aoe tbh

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Giving us blade flurry and BP %buff and calling it a day doesn’t deal with the fundamental problem they created with sblades / dance cdr nerfs and energy on aoe with rework

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Dance uptime in aoe just isn’t what it used to be

keen dome
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So by 2032 we should have at least twenty people playing it.

vale pine
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i don't think we can win this battle

vagrant fulcrum
vale pine
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the majority of the playerbase palys long enough to have preferences

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and subtlety was bad enough too many times to make anyone interessted long term

keen dome
vale pine
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let me give you one example of what i mean

vagrant fulcrum
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They need to revisit the effects of downtime on sub

vale pine
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dragonflight made subtlety the strongest aoe spec of rogue

vagrant fulcrum
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Missing a sectec in cds due to slight downtime is so bad

vale pine
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as such it became a very good choice for mythic+

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so if you as a player switched to sub

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for keys

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you got completely fucked in 10.2

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because you moved from good/best mythi+ spec to be one of the worse

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this is a heavy change for a spec which already struggles to onboard players

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to make matters worse it also became 3 times more complicated to play

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i don't remember such a thing happening at any point to a diffrent spec

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but i argue, that i as a player would switch away

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if this is a common thing

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and for sub, it is

keen dome
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The double whammy of being complex to play and not performing well in certain circumstances.

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By complex I mean it has some pretty distinct rules you have to follow and then it's pretty simple to play, but complex to learn initially and until you do, it's hard.

vale pine
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i think sub is easier now

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it wasn't too compicated in 10.0-10.2

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but subtlety also is a spec people remember

keen dome
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So do I, yeah. Playing around SecTec and 1:30 is good. I think the opener is pretty janky, but that's just a thing you do once per boss.

vale pine
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going from "this spec is rly good in raid"

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to

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"this spec is completely useless for the entire xpac"

keen dome
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Yeah

vale pine
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like there is so much historical

keen dome
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BfA dracthyr_kek

vale pine
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evidence of the spec getting completely rolled

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that most of the community won't suddenly switch to it

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meanwhile you had a lot of positive enforcement for playing assassiantion

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so you got rewarded for sticking to it exclusively

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but well

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it is what it is

keen dome
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Curious if we'll see anything in 11.1. We're in a good spot, but I still think we might see some reworks on the spec tree.

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If only because I want to see PV go in the bin

vale pine
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i mean it comes down to

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what is seen as a problem space

keen dome
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Ye

vale pine
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and i need to agree with armin

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once you get subtlety okay enough

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why bother

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there is no reason to do any change

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just to make a small group of people happy

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so what i could see happening

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is a Killing spree rework

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because the spell is a clusterfuck

keen dome
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Yee...

vale pine
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and then some more specific changes aimed at other specs

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e.g. we have the entire discussion around

keen dome
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they're gonna put the ky'veza animation on killing spree aren't they dracthyr_cry

vale pine
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"restealths feel bad in keys"

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since 1-2 years

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for assassination and outlaw to a degree

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so maybe they reduce vanish cooldown to fix that problem

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or maybe they rework how stealth works for these specs

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or maybe they decouple talents from stealth and put them on vanish

fierce minnow
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for sub its kinda "let me get my first dance back between packs pls"

vale pine
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i mean

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i am just pointing this out

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but if they do any of the changes i mentioned in the last 3 scentences above

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it is the same team

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that added 6 sec requirement

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it would be very weird if they think restealth is a problem and want to fix it

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while adding 6 sec requirement on top of a restealth condition

fierce minnow
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nah its flavour

vale pine
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just saying, objectively seen

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it would be weird

fierce minnow
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first dance should just reset once combat ends

vale pine
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but also there is so much weird stuff in game

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like e.g.

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why does subterfuge extend everysthing on assassination, and why did talents got changed to get full subterfuge duraiton baseline

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when outlaws talents require subterfuge for similar talents to function

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i am not saiyng which of the design decisions is better

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but i don't understand the inconsistency

fierce minnow
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i stopped trying to understand blizzard

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if any rogue spec is borderline cringe to play, i just dont

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and switch to the less cringe spec

vale pine
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To be fair, i think its just my perspective thats wrong

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game development is not about objective measures or fairness

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it is about making decisions that your team/company agrees with

fierce minnow
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its about making a new overpowered ring in a 0.7 patch and fated for 2.7 every expansion!

vale pine
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the ring looks a lot less op

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there are fewer gems

fierce minnow
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i sure hope its useless, just spent 400k on boe ring

vale pine
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it has stat options

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so worse case

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you just roll with stats on it

uneven fern
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just in a healthier way than the df one

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surely…

vale pine
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again

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it has a stat option

fierce minnow
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whatever happens, happens

vale pine
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so if its more stans than regular rings

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i mean...

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why wouldn't you run it

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its free power

fierce minnow
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protest

vale pine
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protest against free power level

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why

fierce minnow
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is it free tho?

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afaik its not showing up at my postmaster once the patch drops

vale pine
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its free as

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you "only" need to spend some time in the new zone to farm it

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wow is based on grind

fierce minnow
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ngl the onyx annulet minigame vault thing was rather annoying

vale pine
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and as such

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you need to grind for everything

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gear is a core component of gameplay

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e.g. why you see now

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people argue how much they like still getting gear upgrades this late in the patch

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while i personally dislike how gear works in this xpac/patch

fierce minnow
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oh yeah, the gearing paths will change ini 11.1

vale pine
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do we know that for sure?

fierce minnow
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no, its just my take

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the 13 ilvl gap between full upgrade hc and m just triggers to many people

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especially the dungeon andys

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and the fact that mythic raiders have access to 629 ilvl drops that just save alot of timegate

warm marlin
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as a dungeon andy I thought the myth change would be worse but its not so bad with how hard gilded crests are gated anyway

quaint lodge
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Question: Do people still use thistle tea (the actual item not the skill) for anything in particular

fierce minnow
vale pine
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the only realistic change i see

fierce minnow
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most dungeon only players have like 632 at most?

warm marlin
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one of my friends got hof today and I am the same ilvl as him

quaint lodge
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The ilvl gap between me who is 1/8m and mythic level raiders is like 4-5 at most

vale pine
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is heroic items getting 2 more upgrade tracks

warm marlin
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at 633

quaint lodge
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and thats like the very high end raiders

fierce minnow
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my rogue is 637,63

vale pine
fierce minnow
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lacking mythic transmitter tho since i dont have kyveza kill yet

sacred yarrow
fierce minnow
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its not healthy for the endgame that the vault caps out at 623

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or they should just be more generous with crest timegate

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saving crests early is a huge powergain that slowly starts to diminish now

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and 629 BoE is kinda pay to win on that front 😄

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buy 2-3 of those and you saved 60-90 crests, that is an entire week worth of gearing

vale pine
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i am weirded ou

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out

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about how bad crafted gear is this xpac

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outside of some abuse cases for early power gains

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the crest costs make crafting less desireable

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and the cost increase came from the higher amount of upgrade tracks

fierce minnow
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yes crafting for 90 is a real bitch

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i have 3 crafted pieces equipped tho

vale pine
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i mentioned it earlier

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i am not a big fan of gearig

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but amybe i am not the target audience, others might like the system as is

fierce minnow
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i mean it has its flawes, but generally it works kinda well

vale pine
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it is so hard to get a good overview on what people like/disslike

tulip gorge
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think of the increased sub times

vale pine
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yes

tulip gorge
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I doubt there is any other reason to nerf gearing so hard

vale pine
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thats out of question

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wow since DF

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does a lot of what many would consider shady practices to keep people playing

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the industry name is dark patterns, and most companies do it

tulip gorge
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Shadowlands was even more egregious

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with the time gates

vale pine
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shadowlands was a dissaster

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also in content

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the release was rly good

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the ideas ended up solid

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but they rly drove with full speed into a wall after

fierce minnow
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i kinda enjoy the downtime from the gearing grind at the end of a patch

#

gives me time to finish open world stuff

vale pine
#

8 month patches are brutal

#

we are now down to 4-5 months probably

tulip gorge
#

Season 2 of DF was ridiculous for gearing

fierce minnow
#

hopefully

vale pine
#

and from the engagement in this chat

tulip gorge
#

But season 3 was okay

vale pine
#

we at least for a month now

#

are dead

#

like the channel activlity is extremely low

fierce minnow
#

its graveyard shift rn

tulip gorge
#

I think it’s also because sub is not as popular

fierce minnow
#

only the CE raiders remain

tulip gorge
#

Assa seems much more active

fierce minnow
#

the casuals are all gone already

vale pine
#

and if we have discussions its 90% just some regulars discussing recent things or similar

vale pine
fierce minnow
vale pine
#

so there is a lot of traffic due to that

fierce minnow
#

driving whispyr insane with cooked takes

tulip gorge
#

For dk it’s the same, unholy is a graveyard (hehe), frost is very active

sacred yarrow
#

its just us regulars now catgasp

vale pine
#

don't think rogue was this fotm since a long time

#

so happy for the assassination folks

fossil gyro
#

Do we still have the log review thingy?

vale pine
#

they already seemed very angry at subtlety during DF, maybe that changed now

sacred yarrow
#

yes, !log

vale pine
fossil gyro
#

Also does anyone else find trickster so much nicer to play in ST than stalker

cerulean beacon
#

I have a question relating to the ST/AoE opener. In ST, the guide states to use SB after sectec, with stacking all other cds/trinkets on the first dance/sd. In aoe it looks like we stack every CD including shadow blades. Why is that? Is it relating to the mastery buff from flag somehow?

fierce minnow
#

assassination deserves some time in the meta

fierce minnow
vale pine
fossil gyro
fierce minnow
#

trickster sub is just a comfy package, it does everything, no cringe stuff

vale pine
tulip gorge
#

Overnerfed*

vale pine
#

possible

#

like seaosn 3 -> 4

#

they reverted the nerfs

#

and you saw the outcome of meta

fossil gyro
#

Sometimes it feels like I should/can press a sec outside of cds but I'm scared so always hold

vale pine
#

you can decide on your own how dominant/healthy s4 df/s1 tww meta is and how relevant all 3 specs are as a cosnsequence

vale pine
#

think of it like this

#

you use 2x symbols/dance/secret during your big cds

#

so flag/blades

#

and between the big ones

#

send symbols/dance around secret

#

secret is the ability limiting you in a sense

vagrant fulcrum
keen dome
#

i guess 10.2 for Smolderon

#

10.1 for M+?

vale pine
#

for raid possible

vagrant fulcrum
#

In general actually

vale pine
#

for m+?

#

no?

vagrant fulcrum
#

For raid

vale pine
#

like rogue is currently

vagrant fulcrum
#

All three specs were solid

vale pine
#

meta in raid and keys

keen dome
#

Yeah

vagrant fulcrum
#

In keys OL was best

vale pine
#

and assassiantion rly dominates in both

fossil gyro
#

But if your guild didnt have nice kill times like me you were probs trolling with sub

vagrant fulcrum
#

You needed pi to compete with sub

vale pine
#

yes, but sub was absolute shit in m+

#

and the meta m+ combos would not bring a rogue

vagrant fulcrum
#

Tbh I think sub is better in m+ now than it was in 10.2

vale pine
#

it is

#

because it got blade flurry

vagrant fulcrum
#

😂

fossil gyro
#

We outlaw now bois and girls

keen dome
#

We're PURPLE outlaw

vagrant fulcrum
#

Outlaw is the real loser of tww for me

keen dome
#

Gotta include the proper and powerful unique Sub benefit: purple

vagrant fulcrum
#

Lost its niche

keen dome
#

Can anybody else go purple? I think not.

patent crystal
#

purple = big value

vale pine
#

one thing i don't understand

fossil gyro
vale pine
#

why is BF diffrent on all 3 specs

#

like

#

assassinaiton got a custom BF implementation

#

which is overall the best one possibly

keen dome
#

Our BF version should be making clones do stuff for spooky shaodwy ghosts (kyveza kyveza kyveza)

vale pine
#

while sub got a copy of outlaws

#

but like...

#

latest outlaw qol changes, going from nodes

#

didn't apply to sub

#

man, i feel like i am way to negative today

#

when subtlety is overall actually good

alpine wraith
#

dont worry you can go into a dungeon and enjoy rs bug too

#

with reduced range

#

and if you though you were ok you can also bug out coup

vagrant fulcrum
alpine wraith
#

and have to alt f4

keen dome
vagrant fulcrum
#

And both sin / sub do the whole good prio dps while aoeing

#

Which was originally an OL thing

fossil gyro
vale pine
#

bf makes all 3 have good prio

#

in aoe

#

its just how bf works

vagrant fulcrum
keen dome
#

It's time to redesign Outlaw with THE BIGGEST GUN

vagrant fulcrum
#

This is like saying balance Druid has a niche even if it’s tuned badly

keen dome
#

CANNON BARRAGE

vagrant fulcrum
#

It still does its thing uncapped spread aoe

#

They didn’t just start making other specs able to compete with it at something it had a monopoly on (shared with spriest / aff)

vale pine
#

or pissed

#

if outlaw would become a ranged spec

keen dome
#

That'd be fascinating though

vagrant fulcrum
#

lowkey

#

tip of the spear should have been an outlaw gameplay mechanic, makes sense with the whole concealed pistol being used at opportune moments

sacred yarrow
vagrant fulcrum
#

trust me

#

any time it's remotely competitive it just takes your raid spot

#

or you're forced / pressured to play it

fossil gyro
#

I'm sure that'd be fun to play against in pvp a ranged rogue. Now they can sit on the healer while doing 100% dmg 🙂

vale pine
alpine wraith
#

tbh surv is already kinda like that

vale pine
#

its just that rogue would get a ranged option

half comet
#

yeah but i dont think the average rogue wants to become ranged

vale pine
#

like as much as its a meme

#

but one spec is always dominant if competitively tuned

#

and its always the same ^^

vagrant fulcrum
keen dome
#

I want a tank spec

sacred yarrow
#

it'd be pretty neat if in new patch rogue would get an alchemist based spec, just throwing poison vials everywhere, or maybe the second support type class that its vials buff players

vagrant fulcrum
#

with all rogue specs being melee damage profile / utility and tuning decide it

#

with ranged vs melee people will almost always just demand range

fossil gyro
vagrant fulcrum
#

look at sv vs bm / mm atm

vale pine
vagrant fulcrum
#

they can't do much more for sv, it's the best tuned AND has 6% dr for free

vale pine
#

having a flat damage profile like outlaw

vagrant fulcrum
#

and yet still sees less raid play

vale pine
#

won't change

#

if you are ranged

#

so you still have the same downsides

#

ofc. if outlaw would inherently get more niches and a better damage profile

#

this would break

vagrant fulcrum
#

honestly

#

my take is they made outlaw stray too far from what the original vision was

#

and they can't go back for fear of alienating the playerbase

vale pine
#

i think outlaw is fine in the same way sub is

sacred yarrow
vale pine
#

it works, but would benefit from more time spend iterating on it

#

as earlier discussed, its just

vagrant fulcrum
vale pine
#

why spend too much time on a spec thats not popular

vagrant fulcrum
#

unlike OL sub's historically not been simple

#

combat was incredibly simple

vale pine
#

and it is why we will keep seeing more focus on assassination changes

#

like we saw in the last 5 patches

fossil gyro
vagrant fulcrum
#

sinister strike to build , keep snd up, evisc to spend. toggle blade flurry

#

compare that

#

to what it became

vale pine
#

just to mention this

#

look at shaman

#

you consider enh to be worse than ele?

vagrant fulcrum
#

atm? no I think enh is better

#

hot take, enh was better pre-nerfs too

vale pine
#

is enhance noticable less played than ele?

vagrant fulcrum
#

just wasn't as flashy

vale pine
#

if both is answered with a no

#

then outlaw on ranged, migth be not as impactful as you think

vagrant fulcrum
#

issue with enh vs ele is that enh's dmg profile is a lot better than ele's

vale pine
#

but

#

assassiantions damage profile is extremely good

#

it has better haste scaling

#

it has execute

#

it has big burst

#

it has some op utility

#

i could go on

vagrant fulcrum
#

can we clarify if we're talking raid or m+ here

#

for m+ ye, sin is just better

#

there's no competition

vale pine
#

the point is you have so many other factors

#

in favor of the other 2 specs

#

that ranged wouldn't be a deal breaker

#

even sub which has way less benefits

vagrant fulcrum
#

consider how garbage ele is

#

on st

vale pine
#

offers a better damage profle

vagrant fulcrum
#

please

#

and it still has almost the same playrate as enh

#

ranged is a notable advantage in popularity

fossil gyro
#

Thats just because it is fun though

vagrant fulcrum
#

sv is neck and neck with bm at bm's niche (pure st) while having a ton of cleave / aoe at the same time

#

bm is played 10x the amount

#

of sv

#

if not more

#

look at mythic brood

#

I say this as someone with a geared sv hunter that's cleared 4/8 multiple times (it's my alt)

#

the spec is just better than bm / mm

#

and isn't played

#

only reason can be that it's melee

#

and among the melee it might be the one that suffers the least with downtime, alongside ret

vale pine
#

bm is played because its easy

#

not because its ranged

#

same as ret

#

if melee was such a dissadvantage

#

you wouldn't see such high ret player numbers

fossil gyro
#

Its fun and its a different audience similar to why a lot of balance druids won't go feral even if it was better or equal

vagrant fulcrum
#

ret isn't really melee though is it

fossil gyro
vale pine
#

depends who you ask

#

in the classical melee vs ranged sense

#

it is considered melee

vagrant fulcrum
vale pine
#

in a more modern sense

#

its hybrid

vagrant fulcrum
#

ret can be ranged permanently outside of every 30s for a bit for wake / hammer of light

#

they lose holy power gen but it's functionally like 70% of its dps is maintained at 20y

vale pine
#

think they need to auto attack for some of their talents to work

fossil gyro
vale pine
#

^

vagrant fulcrum
#

it's just crusading strikes

#

every 2 autos is 1 hp

#

they lose 50%ish of their hp gen at range

#

sounds like a lot but it would even out to like 20-30% of total dps lost

#

while they're at range

#

either way, the shit i've seen our ret do (he streams) on prog

#

guy is just playing ranged

#

it's not even funny

vale pine
#

but i think what you mean is

#

downtime is not a problem on certain melees

#

while it is on others

#

this creates this inbalance

#

that acro solved to a degree

#

but now we are back to more extremes, where you rly feel and see diffrences

fossil gyro
#

Makes you have to think more and gives you and raid more problems to solve

vale pine
#

i think its difficult

#

i like if diffrent specs/classes have diffrent benefits and dissadvantages

#

as you mentioned

#

its nice to have diffrent puzzle pieces

fossil gyro
#

Its bad when you had it then they take it away because FOMO. But that actual philosophy good

vale pine
#

to put together

#

but the problem here is

#

wow starts to create puzzle pieces

#

that are always better and fit into everything

#

while a lot of classes/specs stay like classical puzzle pieces

#

let me put in one example to showcase what i mean

#

in legion, there was a lot of effort put into making each rogue spec unique

#

outlaw had the cdr/heavy rtb based gameplay with super reactional combat

#

assassination the big focus on bleeds, making it rly good on single target and cleave

#

subtlety initially had no clear identity

#

but middle of the xpac got the burst damage/cooldown stacking gameplay loop

#

now each of these had their downsides

tribal blade
#

i think legion sub had more identity than we currently do

vale pine
#

outlaw did depend a lot on rtb to perform, which was later reduced to make the spec more reliable

tribal blade
#

every strike tping was so much fun

vale pine
#

subtlety had absolutely no cleave or aoe damage

#

it had shuriken combo to offset that

#

assassination had some burst with vendetta but it was limited to single target and was overall more of a sustained damage spec

#

so each of the spec was unique in their own way

#

e.g. subtlety was the swift spec with 2 shadow steps

#

no fall damage

tribal blade
#

a lot of movement

#

every strike teleporting you to your target

#

too

vale pine
#

but over time this diffrences got removed

#

e.g. in fba

#

*bfa

#

the burst damage was removed by a purge of dfa

#

shuriken combo was removed because there was one fight it was op on

#

and later

#

other uniquenesses became shared

#

dragonflight

#

suddenly subtlety is one of the slowest specs in the game

#

with 2 minute sprint and one shadow step

#

meanwhile assassination always played 2x step and 1 minute sprint

#

which previousely had more limited mobility

#

now burst

#

is also not sub only anymore 10.2 made sub and sin the exact same damage profile in single target

#

but some things remained

#

all the way back from legion

#

to 11.0

#

cleave damage of subtlety was absoltely horrendous

bronze turret
vale pine
#

and it only now changes with blade flurry

bronze turret
#

Legion sub was also 2 very different iterations

vale pine
#

but then again, this is basically the point

tribal blade
vale pine
#

game design makes things too even

#

you don't have many puzzle pieces anymore to choose between if every puzzle piece does the same thing

lilac stag
#

Legion was a DFA sandwich and people just have very fond memories of 1 ability.

bronze turret
tribal blade
#

true

vale pine
#

sub is good right now

bronze turret
#

Also more finisher based

vale pine
#

i would say current iteration is as good as dfa

fossil gyro
vale pine
#

with some things that are better

bronze turret
#

Legion sub shadowstrike did massive dmg

tribal blade
#

in a visual sense sub is lacking atm

alpine wraith
#

i want 0 shadow dmg big evis big phys no split dmg

#

what is this shadow nonsense

vale pine
#

the problem is talent trees

bronze turret
vale pine
#

how to make a spec better

#

turns out removing all weaknesses

lilac stag
#

it’s def fun. I worry about the next version with how bad DS is to play.

vale pine
#

and adding more and more new stenghts is the current deisgn goal

#

it creates this balancing problem

bronze turret
#

Blizzard are scared of introducing too much visual clutter. So every melee spec is undercooked

vale pine
#

where content becomes now more about mehcanics and oneshots

#

because people have too many tools

alpine wraith
#

i expect the s2 set to help cdr like s3 df did

#

as a bandaid

#

because on god they are not changing any talent

vale pine
#

and between specs/classes

#

some have way more tools then others just as a consequence

#

it is all about how much time was spend in making one spec good

tribal blade
#

i really hope they do something about our cdr outside of tier set

vale pine
#

vs. how easy it is to focus on adding things compared to how much needs to be fixed first

tribal blade
#

not really a fan of fixing problems with tier sets

bronze turret
#

I hope legion classic will be with launch patch. So people can realize how shit that expansion was during the first year or so

lilac stag
#

outside of dance needs some energy love in aoe

fossil gyro
# vale pine the problem is talent trees

Problem is UI as well. You can't make a spec revolve around rolling dice if you need to look at some small icon in the top of your screen (by default) to determine your rotation

tribal blade
#

heehee

vale pine
bronze turret
#

Just 1 part

vale pine
#

a huge amount of your damage on assassination was in poison bomb

#

yet nobody switched off the spec

#

even tho other alternatives had less rng

bronze turret
#

It wasnt retroactive

vale pine
#

both rtb and poison bomb got iterated on

tribal blade
bronze turret
#

So if you missed, gg

vale pine
#

and are now far less impactful

tribal blade
#

yeah you had to be pretty sweaty with AP

lilac stag
#

wonder if legion classic will have gear swapping in dungeons.

vale pine
#

@bronze turret going from how they handle classic

#

it is more likely that they go with end tier patches than initial ones

bronze turret
#

Yes i know it will be with later patch

alpine wraith
vale pine
#

maybe i am unfair

alpine wraith
#

NO SATYR WELCOME TO TANK DMG

vale pine
#

but i think legion got some bonus points

alpine wraith
#

also hitting from 7y away to get extra energy

bronze turret
#

But i want people to play early legion so they can live the disaster

vale pine
#

by introducing almost all modern systems to wow

alpine wraith
#

well they will enjoy mop and wod sub

vale pine
#

so while i agree

alpine wraith
#

then come to legion

tribal blade
#

i was so sad, i got the leggo boots like ~1 week before they nerfed them

vale pine
#

they fucked up on many parts

alpine wraith
#

and be like wtf is this

vale pine
#

these things being new

#

is for me a "get out of jail" card to a degree

tribal blade
#

so for real, are classic players just going to be having a harder and harder time playing the game as it becomes progressively more complicated

#

because i've watched classic content before

#

and some of those players are.. special

lilac stag
#

I hated legion. MA was my 2nd to last lego.

tribal blade
fossil gyro
bronze turret
#

I got Sephuz and Havoc DH leech chest as my first 2

vale pine
#

the biggst issues they had:

  1. Worldquests, you could initially infinitely do them which completely ruined people
  2. AP farming, you only got short term benefits, but especially early on so big ones that people destroyed themselves to farm ap
  3. legendary aquisition.... they never fixed that issue, only in the very last patch where nobody cared anymore
bronze turret
#

And launch Sephuz was terrible

lilac stag
#

zold and feint pants my first 2. kekw

vale pine
#

legendary balance was terrible

tribal blade
#

i got the storm aoe damage cloak as my first

vale pine
#

subtlety had a 20 or 25% legendary

tribal blade
#

i forget the name

vale pine
#

you had it -> competitive

#

if you got lucky like me

#

going with prydaz and other utility legendaries first

bronze turret
vale pine
#

you got fucked for 3 tiers

bronze turret
#

But ppl forget

vale pine
#

basically played from 10% minimum behind

tribal blade
#

i legitimately forgot AP was such an issue

vale pine
#

nobody in modern wow

#

would be fine with 10% dps deficit from a rng drop

bronze turret
#

You had to login each week or be multipliers behind others in AP value. So every AP you did felt pointless

vale pine
#

for 3 full raid tiers

tribal blade
#

but i also was playing legion pretty hardcore at the time, so i did all the homework content

vale pine
#

its just legion had extremely good raids

fossil gyro
vale pine
#

and a lot of content

#

and systems ended up new

tribal blade
#

legion had a LOT of content, it was kinda nuts

vale pine
#

so there was more leeway given

bronze turret
vale pine
#

basically how ap worked

bronze turret
#

Not AP itself

vale pine
#

you had a skill tree in the weapon

round latch
vale pine
#

which you unlocked with collecting knowlage

lilac stag
#

legion #nochanges kekdog

alpine wraith
#

you made me remember how mad i was when they lied to me

#

saying there was no soft cap

vale pine
#

but getitng knowlage got noticably easier every week

alpine wraith
#

while my friends made mirror chars

vestal escarp
#

Why the legion talk?

alpine wraith
#

i was I BELIEVE IN BLIZZZ

vale pine
#

so you e.g. made the farm of a week

lilac stag
#

But you know what they say. Rose colored glasses.

vale pine
#

obsolete at the next reset

alpine wraith
#

then got to enjoy playing shadowpriest

vale pine
#

because you essentially got it for free

alpine wraith
#

for 2 tiers almost because of it

bronze turret
#

They also said they wouldnt nerf specs cus you basically locked in 1 spec with the weapon

#

And then nerfed specs

alpine wraith
#

until they murdered surrender

vale pine
#

making the system very short lived

lilac stag
#

rip outlaw

vale pine
#

haha

alpine wraith
#

was comic

fossil gyro
alpine wraith
#

yea and we are yapping

#

man in hated legion first season

vale pine
#

tho the power gain early was so strong

alpine wraith
#

apart from having to play spriest

vale pine
#

that you grinded the shit out of it

#

and everyone hated it

alpine wraith
#

my rogue was dog and i got scammed by blizz

bronze turret
#

I just hear ppl talk about how amazing legion was and i get triggered

alpine wraith
#

kinda same

vale pine
#

legion was amazing

#

in terms of raid design

#

mythic+

bronze turret
#

It ruined a year of wow

vale pine
#

class design ---- in later patches

bronze turret
#

First raid was a joke

#

Cleared in 18 hours

vale pine
#

firts raid was just poorly tuned

vestal escarp
#

I have good memories of legion because i wasnt playing too much hardcore

vale pine
#

also

#

consequence of so many new systems

vestal escarp
#

I remember some grinds being insane

vale pine
#

tbh i wish

#

they made classic+

#

so they would release legion

#

without the 3 big issues

#

and re-tune raids

#

to not be pushovers

fossil gyro
vale pine
#

if they got tuning wrong

vale pine
bronze turret
#

I mean classic legion will be with all the good stuff

vale pine
#

to hear different opinions

bronze turret
#

I think classic legion will be amazing

#

Cus it will be 2 years of fixes

vestal escarp
#

I think that too but only if you completely switch from retail

vale pine
#

you still have the dogshit legendary aquisition

alpine wraith
#

tbh i do feel for the people that get to relive the whole balance of power questline

#

im not going there

vestal escarp
#

Like classic legion has to take all your game time

alpine wraith
#

but it will be cool to see

vale pine
#

that one wasn't fixed till you could buy legos

#

and you could only buy them during farm of the last raid of the xpac

bronze turret
#

I mean if they have the legendary salvaging from start it will be fine

fossil gyro
#

Is Classic+ classic with M+ or just with changes?

vale pine
#

which was a big mistake they did back then

bronze turret
#

Dont think they will

vestal escarp
bronze turret
#

emerald nightmare will prob be better tuned too

vale pine
#

btw push

#

you plan to play classic mop

fossil gyro
alpine wraith
#

but they lied in our faces

vale pine
fossil gyro
#

Like mop classic with M+ would go hard

alpine wraith
#

so what most people did is just create more chars

#

but some people believed

#

and got scammed

vale pine
#

hot take

#

i think wod with mythic+

#

would be remembered better

alpine wraith
#

wod dungeons are demonic tho

#

i did challenge runs

#

m+ on those would be ass

vale pine
#

i didn't play enough

vestal escarp
fossil gyro
vestal escarp
#

Yeah it came with a lot of changes to classes and some istances

fossil gyro
vale pine
#

i think mop was great

#

i didn't play it back then

#

but i played remix

sly shore
#

I will play the absolute living fuck out of Legion classic if it comes

vale pine
#

and the dungeon and raid design is good for its time

fossil gyro
#

That was mop for zoomers I couldn't do it

sly shore
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skip wod plz

vale pine
#

but it is in fact a classic xpac

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legion started modern wow

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and you notice the diffrences

tribal blade
#

holy shit you just reminded me of titanforging

vale pine
#

hot take

alpine wraith
#

wod was quite tragic for sub

vale pine
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i want titanforging in m+

alpine wraith
#

first tier was more than demonic

vale pine
#

on retail

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and delves

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give me delve forging

tribal blade
alpine wraith
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oh boi titanforging would be funny

tribal blade
#

all the raiders in my guild would be furious haha

vale pine
#

"look at me"

tribal blade
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you mean i have to do MOOORRREE keys?!?!?!