subtlety

[vale pine]

playing wow on a macbook

[wild hornet]

I still have AD for camera movement

Sometimes fights get a little lazy

[spark tusk]

Hey listen it was 2007 what do you expect of me

[wild hornet]

5090

[vale pine]

haha, i mean i play on a laptop

with a internal gpu

[spark tusk]

I mean I do too now

it's jut not a macbook

[vale pine]

🙈 so i am the last one to complain

[wild hornet]

Im trying to switch over to a PC

Laptop is rly horrible for me

[spark tusk]

I wanted a laptop because I wanted to be able to move around easily without the hassle

[vale pine]

my laptop is 24-30 fps in game

[wild hornet]

It hasnt moved almost at all

[wild hornet]

Lucky you

Im doing ovinax with 4

[vale pine]

well raiding can drop it lower, depending on the fight

[wild hornet]

True

[swift tinsel]

hahaha this brings back memories, I had to have this little fan pad that sounded like a jet engine while my Macbook was an even louder jet engine

[wild hornet]

I do half of the fights on single digits

[vale pine]

but if you go down to 4, you probably have a bad configuration

[wild hornet]

I nean im used to it

[spark tusk]

lmao exactly

[wild hornet]

I manage to get my 99s on that fps so we ball

I tried to watch a few vids for like

[swift tinsel]

I think I still have it, it only works when its plugged in

[wild hornet]

Game optimization

[swift tinsel]

trying to raid Naxx at 4 fps as a holy paladin

[wild hornet]

I just did some cleaning and paste changing

[swift tinsel]

good thing Holy Light existed

[wild hornet]

Made my game from lagging half the time to a constant 5fps

[lilac stag]

Don’t play assa on ovi and frame rates go up

[wild hornet]

Dont you just love healing with one button

[wild hornet]

Im on retri during ovi

[swift tinsel]

was a truly exceptional experience haha

Powerpoint gaming

[wild hornet]

But i have an assa in my group unfortunately

[lilac stag]

oh no body cares about paladins. Suffer with 4 fps.

[wild hornet]

Fuck you and your web

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/step-into-my-web-come-here-barney-gif-14367897

[wild hornet]

You just mad your logs aint like that

[lilac stag]

You’ll get used to pressing more than 3 buttons. Don’t worry. We’ve all been there.

[wild hornet]

Im under 590 ilvl

[lilac stag]

Wait for mythic parses when your purple parse drops to a green because there’s like 45 other parses. lol

[wild hornet]

But yeah you are right i should unbind freedom and sac

[wild hornet]

Cant relate

[jaunty heath]

Might be doing something wrong here.

[wild hornet]

Porque

[jaunty heath]

I mean I am 561 Ilvl.

[wild hornet]

Im not far from that

Just check my sub logs

[jaunty heath]

For real?

Link to your sub logs?

[wild hornet]

I sent my user for public shame

[wild hornet]

Check my user

Those are the only logs i have

[spark tusk]

Follow the principles in https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/1271971289396936735 and/or wowhead and you'll do fine, you can't really infer much from being at 561 in terms of numbers.

If you are maintaining rupture outside of dance, getting 2 sectecs off during big burst, sequencing flag and blades properly, and properly anchoring sod/dance to sectec outside of cds, then you'll do fine

[jaunty heath]

What is sectech?

[spark tusk]

secret technique

[jaunty heath]

Ah I see.

I'm just following this:

[spark tusk]

Yup

[jaunty heath]

But I am gonna take the time to learn to use what and why.

[spark tusk]

can confirm is good

[spark tusk]

The thread I linked for TC Info has a lot of good info about how/why we do what we do

[patent frost]

question, how does supercharger combo points work? are you sending a 9 combo point eviscerate/secret tech with full combo points + supercharger?

[jaunty heath]

Thanks man.

[spark tusk]

Yes

the scaling goes above your max cp

[wild hornet]

Hold on i think i have the ligs

Logs

heroics for rogue
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/xD2tfVJvj4Y1RBn9

[patent frost]

ty c:

[jaunty heath]

So is backstab a filler? And where does fazed come into play?

[uneven scarab]

You backstab when you cant shadow strike which is basically all the downtime outside of dance

But yea it is ur filler

[jaunty heath]

Oh I see, fazed comes from unseen blade.

That's why we cast flag when unseen blade is up.

I see, so the pretty much the goal is to pop unseen blade 4 times so we can use coupe.

Shadowstrike pops unseen bladed paired with flag I'm guessing.

[uneven scarab]

Stab and strike both proc unseen

[vale pine]

its basically +3 combo points on the next 2 finisher you use

[jaunty heath]

Oooo

[vale pine]

after symbols

so if you use a finisher on 5 cp, it counts as 8

[jaunty heath]

^

[hazy breach]

I've updated icy veins now too so it should be good as well

[spark tusk]

🫡

nice

[jaunty heath]

I'm kinda getting the hang of this, let me keep practicing, I am not ready for open world just yet lmao.

[hazy breach]

Still the same info as on wowhead ofc, just presented differently

[jaunty heath]

So for multi target it's basically the same thing, except we build with shuriken storm and spend on black powder right?

[hazy breach]

You build with shuriken storm outside shadow dance

But you spend it with eviscerate still

Because of Nimble Flurry in trickster

[spark tusk]

Let me share a secret with you, and this is just my opinion:

None of us are ready for open world when we first start. The brain connections that help solidify getting comfortable with your rotation are made stronger when made in the presence of conflict. If your health is in danger while fighting, you will remember those moments more strongly, and even if you don't press the exact right gcd-by-gcd, the comfort level you have gets better when you experience it in hectic moments. When fight/flight kicks in, the rush is good for getting acclimated.

[jaunty heath]

So your saying I should go into open world knowing I suck lol, it'll only make me stronger.

[spark tusk]

Indeed

[jaunty heath]

Heard.

[spark tusk]

Target dummies are good for extended rotation testing and understanding how cooldown cadence comes in

[jaunty heath]

That's what I'm doing right now.

[spark tusk]

but if you're still acclimated to the gcd-by-gcd, open world is good

[jaunty heath]

But I think I have a basic enough grasp to survive lol.

[spark tusk]

I'm also not just saying open world

I mean any challenging content, dungeons, etc

learning in the presence of actual stakes

[swift tinsel]

There's also follower dungeons and lower-level delves to practice in as well where the stakes are present but not terribly high or demanding

[wild hornet]

Can someone check my heroic logs rq

I wanna know how bad it is

[vale pine]

you can do !log to open a thread for it, not sure if anyone has time to go over it

[jaunty heath]

Another quick questions, what poisons do we use?

[uneven scarab]

I can send my heroic logs if u wanna compare

[uneven scarab]

Instant and either numbing/atrophic

[jaunty heath]

Thank you!

[vale pine]

instant + atrophic in raids

[round latch]

why ar eu doing this to urself 😂

[vale pine]

mind numbing typically if you have a 2nd rogue in your group

[jaunty heath]

Best way to gear? And what to do after 80, metal quests?

meta*

[uneven scarab]

meta quests and delves for sure

[jaunty heath]

Thanks. 🙂

Can't wait till the next story 🙂

[wild hornet]

im a raider by heart

but i cant do nothing about the fps atm

(i can buy a whole ass pc i just want to use this till it breaks down like a skoda octavia)

[round latch]

u can like do 5man content for a couple of months till u settle down ur fps issues

[lucid jackal]

Wtf is the deal with sub on WCL

What is this talent spread

[vale pine]

some people disslike replicating because of the bug

[native zodiac]

decent amount of people are dropping rs because of the bug

[vale pine]

so they skip it

[lucid jackal]

Okay but 93% SF

[lilac stag]

People that realize RS is shit vs those that don’t.

[lucid jackal]

20% PE

80% premed

[vale pine]

pe is good if you go for burst

[lilac stag]

PE is good

[hazy breach]

[vale pine]

its slightly higher immidiate burst

[hazy breach]

SF is technically better than imp storm on pure ST

But its like 0.3%

[lucid jackal]

Okay but like, why aer we taking storm damage on st

R ppl stupid

[vale pine]

its just people not caring

as eleem mentioned

0.3% dps

its rly minor

[hazy breach]

SF does almost nothing

[vale pine]

the energy you get is just too low

[lucid jackal]

Yeah but like, lets look at ret paladin for example

[vale pine]

the talent was buchered

[lucid jackal]

There are "0.3% dps aoe talents" that are just literally, not being taken at all

I don't understand why sub has such large numbers of this difference

Compared to most other classes

[vale pine]

might be me, i think i had improved storm

what boss was it?

[lilac stag]

Large numbers… for a spec barely played.

[lucid jackal]

jyveza

[vale pine]

okay probably not me then

[uneven scarab]

Omg 6% gloomblade

[hazy breach]

The gloomblades are odd af

[uneven scarab]

Huge gloomblade fans out there

[vale pine]

gloomblade deathstalker probably

not sure

[lucid jackal]

No this is only trickster showing

[vale pine]

oh

[lilac stag]

So like 2 people played GB

[uneven scarab]

[hazy breach]

But the storm sf thing is irrelevant

[vale pine]

middle row is overall fairly irrelevant

[uneven scarab]

Huge dam

[vale pine]

you can shift around 1-2 points

[lucid jackal]

How much DPS is lost with the RS bug

[vale pine]

and it won't make a big diffrence

[hazy breach]

Depends on if you miss cp or no

[vale pine]

not much, it does not happen that often

[hazy breach]

Hard to quantify

[vale pine]

you can also play around it technically

[lilac stag]

Happens more than enough to be fucking annoying.

[vale pine]

but i don't expect anyone to do that

[vale pine]

its just human nature

we remember bad things more than good things

so every time it happens we get tilted

and remember that moment

[lucid jackal]

Ik I asked it yesterday but like,

If SHT procs, with RS delay

I'm at 5cp

Is it only consuming 2 SHT procs

[hazy breach]

No

[lucid jackal]

or is it overconsuming my SHT procs

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/bike-fall-memes-baton-roue-bike-stick-gif-8999945942594219773

[hazy breach]

Nvm ye

[lilac stag]

Rs

[hazy breach]

It does sometimes

If it refunds it doesnt eat up more cp than it gives

So it would only be 2 cp ye

[slim field]

Can someone tell why details thinks sectec is full phycisal damage while raidbots count copy damage as shadow

Where is the truth

[uneven scarab]

First hit is phys

The clone hits are shadow dam

[slim field]

Is it stated somewhere? or some talents configuration?

cause the tooltip does not says that

[alpine wraith]

both details and logs split it

check because it is there

[uneven scarab]

Wow tooltips are bad

[hazy breach]

Wow tooltips are notoriously bad

[uneven scarab]

They dont tell us anything

[wild hornet]

out of 142

[slim field]

aigth thanks, so details is lying

[hazy breach]

Well details doesnt split eviscerate either

Unless you make it

[alpine wraith]

im still sad i got shit procs on my last kill smh

[native zodiac]

literally nobody playing sub

[alpine wraith]

cant escape blue town

[native zodiac]

even tho its in its best state since a long time

wild

[wild hornet]

i can tell

my rank on a 8% parse on sub is the same as my 99% on pala

[dusk egret]

i dont understand this passive xD

[wild hornet]

on the same boss

[twilit phoenix]

guy was saying cheat death is mandatory on kyveza

[alpine wraith]

the other way around

you want elu

[alpine wraith]

it is a bit krangled but let me try to explain

every 4 autos you ahve 100% chance of getting a sht stack

but at 3 it is 50%

not counting misses

so the 31% chance is not a lie but weirdly explained

1 and 2 are 0%

[dusk egret]

thank you at first i was thinking it "super charges" your stored CP

[alpine wraith]

yea supercharger is another mechanic

[dusk egret]

so slice and dice shaman windfury Pi or bl increase shadow techniques procing ?

[uneven scarab]

yes to all

More attack speed is more sht procs

[dusk egret]

nice

[uneven scarab]

Pi sucks for us though

bigtime

[dusk egret]

yeah i never ask for it haha

[uneven scarab]

Its like 600 dps

so 0

Shaman buff is MEGA though

Really good

[void hound]

whats the bug

[uneven scarab]

Cp delay

[swift tinsel]

I only apply to keys with a shaman, thankfully they're everywhere

Love when a priest sees my boss damage and starts giving me PI lol

[uneven scarab]

i have to constantly tell my shadow friend to not give it to me hahah

He does the same

He’s also used to me playing assa the last few seasons tho tbf

[vale pine]

https://github.com/SimCMinMax/WoW-BugTracker/issues/1167

[swift tinsel]

I had a super juiced lucky rng Ingra bossfight and nuked it from orbit then was getting PI on cd from the disc

[void hound]

oh this explains a lot

so the CP delay occurs regardless of rupture or not

jsut having the talent is enough?

[swift tinsel]

Iirc

[junior pecan]

hey guys, is there a known bug in droptimizer using sepsis even though we don't have it?

[vale pine]

i am not sure what the question is, the sim shouldn't use sepsis

but you can link the sim if you want

[vale pine]

you only need the talent iirc, but possible that rupture needs to be up

[junior pecan]

I can show the error I get

[hazy breach]

Youre using an old custom APL

Remove it

[junior pecan]

ahh right 😄

[vale pine]

^ delete everything in "custom apl"

[junior pecan]

thanks

[void hound]

unfort that the talent is good for silken

[uneven scarab]

I have just been running rs everywhere

i have noticed the delay a couple times but its not that bad

[vale pine]

replicating is good even on single target

the bug is annoying

but dps wise not that impactful

[uneven scarab]

yeah for sure

its not like it happens constantly either

[void hound]

interesting

[static juniper]

man, missing transimitter rolls by 2 is just

[vale pine]

hot take

i think personal loot was goated for random groups and lfr

[uneven scarab]

I preferred it in random groups

ngl

[static juniper]

yeah, at least you didnt get to see stuff like this 😄

[vale pine]

just looking at it objectively

your chances to get a items are worse without perso loot

let me quick explain why

you now sign up for bosses more times than not

and as such people who queue to them all need items from the boss

so the amount of people you roll against is higher

to make matters worse, if you do it multiple times

[zenith oriole]

Can someone explain to me how Shadow Techniques work?

[vale pine]

the number of people who need a item does not decrease

[vale pine]

if you count auto attacks

successfull ones

1-2

the 3rd attack

[uneven scarab]

Your cp generators consume extra cp that gets stored by autos

[vale pine]

has a 50% chance to generate a stack of shadow techniques

if the 3rd hits and does not

the 4th guarantees it

the proc resets the process and you can count again

the stacks generated are then taken to fill up your combo points

if you ahve 2 stacks

and use backstab

you get the 1 combo point from backstab

and then for each of the stacks one more combo point

ofc. only if are not on your combo point maximum

it might get a bit more complicated with shadowcraft

because it does two things

you now can get the proc on 2nd or 3rd attack

and each proc gives you two stacks

(during symbols of death)

there is also a new mechanism on top of the combo points on your builder

which is easiest explained with an example

the get 1 combo point per stack from builder remains

but if you have shadowblades

shadowblades gives you maximum cp with every builder

so you can't turn the stacks into combo points

but shadowcraft has this extra mechanism

which can refund you your combo points after using a finishing move

so you use symbols and then stack up your shadow techniques

and if it is above 7 stacks

and you use a finisher

you get 7 combo points refunded from your stack

allowing you to finish again

just as a reminder, thats only during symbols of death

hope this explains it well, if not -> just ask

[swift tinsel]

I'm happy for you, or sorry that happened

jk jk this is very good info for people that want to learn about how ShT all fits together

[vale pine]

it is a bit of useless information

because in reality you just finish again if you get the refund and don't think about it else

[lucid lily]

Man I live for a good fuu wall of text in the sub channel

[alpine wraith]

damn fuu wrote the bible over there

[swift tinsel]

Amen

[alpine wraith]

but yea shadowcraft if you only go from tooltips is crazy

[steel sierra]

Between stam or speed, which boot enchant do you typically take?

They seem weak af

[alpine wraith]

defender's march

[topaz raptor]

yeah defenders is like .3% more life

scouts is like 1-2% movement speed

both are sht

[lucid lily]

Gotta go fast

[swift merlin]

mfw fuu posts a whole verse on finishing

https://tenor.com/sr77FWmwyFd.gif

[glossy turtle]

I have a question, it seems like even when I use 2 symbols I seem to use a 3rd one automatically. is it an instant cast? like I can use all of em essencially if I spam 3 times within 1 gcd?

[swift tinsel]

If you're not careful you can spam cast all of them

[glossy turtle]

is there a way to make sure I dont kinda like for tea

[uneven scarab]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[swift tinsel]

there's a castsequence macro people use

^

[glossy turtle]

thanks 🙂

[swift tinsel]

not sure if /cast !Symbols of Death works too

[glossy turtle]

I also wanna ask this. if we ONLY use symbols + shadowdance, what do we do with the 3rd charge?

[swift tinsel]

Use with sectech

[glossy turtle]

oh ok, yeah with the cdr we put on it

[swift tinsel]

there will be times where you have sectech and symbols ready but not dance and you can send, as long as you'll have your 2x symbols and 2x dance for flag/blades

[glossy turtle]

yeah im assuming it all lines up pretty good,

[swift tinsel]

from Hachadino's sheet

[glossy turtle]

can I do something like this?

[alpine wraith]

dance will brick it

[iron fjord]

does trickster really disable parries for the whole raid?

[hazy breach]

This sheet definitely makes seem harder than it is for sure

[glossy turtle]

btw im not trickster, is that the build?

[tropic pier]

Thanks this helps me a lot.

[swift tinsel]

yes

[iron fjord]

insane

[swift tinsel]

nice little possible bug

[alpine wraith]

yea it is global parry

[zenith oriole]

ty

[iron fjord]

thanks

[glossy turtle]

I get the point. It makes good sense, that there is 1 extra symbols we use for stech

[tropic pier]

Wait really haha. How much dps is this?

[alpine wraith]

people like to be guided a bit although only following the above part should work

[iron fjord]

i have no idea but that's a good excuse on why I'm playing sub instead of assa hehe

[swift tinsel]

It was nice when learning to see the lineups with respect to fight time

[glossy turtle]

but can I still set up macro? im assuming the times I use symbols and nothing else Is when I dont have shadowdance anyways

[alpine wraith]

i would not recommend that macro no

no idea if it would work either

[glossy turtle]

well its working fine, as long as I dont hard spam it. but like the idea

[uneven scarab]

I would just get used to pressing them one after the other

[glossy turtle]

like if we only use em at the same time, and the only time we dont use em together is when its on cd. wouldnt it work just fine?

[uneven scarab]

not excactly

they dont always line up proper due to dance cdr

[zenith oriole]

So I think im gonna switch from Outlaw to sub

But the damage outside symbols is giga trash

[swift tinsel]

Welcome

[zenith oriole]

I cant press anything

[uneven scarab]

Welcome to sub

Outside of dance+symbols

it is backstab simulator

[swift tinsel]

You're a monster in CD's and can chill between

[glossy turtle]

well assa isnt much different, that is just throughtout all st fight XD

[uneven scarab]

Yeah but assa does decent damage outside of cd’s

we do less than tank

[glossy turtle]

in st?

[uneven scarab]

Yes

[glossy turtle]

depends on dungeon or raid

[swift tinsel]

Yeah that's the design goal for sub post-rework

Dungeon you have dam for every pull

and are a prio target destroyer

[uneven scarab]

you get alot more cdr in dungeons as well

so its less obvious

[swift tinsel]

^

[glossy turtle]

just depends on the build you go, like for m+ assa st sucks hard. but for raid its nice

[uneven scarab]

I just mean specifically outside of cooldowns

Assa does decent damage in st

We do 0 outside of cd’s

Both st

[glossy turtle]

oh I mean, assa have cds, but its just like mainting bleeds and then empower them

I wanna go back to that dance + symbols thing

🙂

Cause I dont rly get it completely

like you still wanna use em at the same time, right?

[swift tinsel]

sometimes

[alpine wraith]

you use symbols alone sometimes

[uneven scarab]

Anytime you can yes

[alpine wraith]

so not always

that is the thing

[uneven scarab]

but there is wiggle room yeah

[swift tinsel]

you always dance with symbols, but don't need to symbols with dance

[alpine wraith]

you need 2 buttons anyway

[uneven scarab]

Yep

[swift tinsel]

Good to have separate binds and just adjust which ones you hit

[uneven scarab]

You play around secrettech

and its cd

[glossy turtle]

ok, but like I mean like forget abt the 1 extra symbols. apart from that is it then also sometimes you use symbols alone?

or dance alone?

[swift tinsel]

symbols alone with sectech

[uneven scarab]

Never dance alone

[swift tinsel]

symbols has a lot tied to it so you wanna prio that

[glossy turtle]

so apart from the usage of that 1 extra symbols for stech. do you use em apart ( dance and symbols)

[uneven scarab]

No

[glossy turtle]

never?

[uneven scarab]

inbetween flag+blades

[swift tinsel]

there's usually 1 set of symbols with no dance between big cd windows

[glossy turtle]

yeah, but that is when its on cd right?

[swift tinsel]

so its not this big thing you have to worry about often

when what's on cd

[uneven scarab]

You will most likely have 2 casts of dance+sod and then maybe a solo symbols cast

[swift tinsel]

^

[uneven scarab]

It really depends on cdr/rng

[swift tinsel]

Your big burst window you'll double symbols double dance, get another symbols+dance, then 1 symbols no dance

[uneven scarab]

it can change

[swift tinsel]

is the typical flow

[glossy turtle]

yea, so why wouldnt the macro work? if I have 1 usage extra macro doesn tmatter cause I cant use dance. If I have the macro and I have dance and symbols up, I use em at the same time anyways?

[swift tinsel]

depending on how you use them, resets, etc

[vale pine]

yes

[swift tinsel]

If you only use a dance+symbols macro you can mess up your dance charges pre-flag which you don't want

[glossy turtle]

how so?=

[swift tinsel]

because you need to make sure you have a certain duration left on the cd of your second dance while you're holding one

which can be dependent on how much cdr you're getting

[glossy turtle]

yes, but wouldnt you just wait and hold symbols alongside for that cd to come to the point anyways?

I might just dont get it XD

[swift tinsel]

it depends

because you need to keep all of this in mind with respect to flag's remaining cooldown

[wind canopy]

Because there could be situations where you might cap out on SoD

[glossy turtle]

cause for me it seems like the only time you wanna use symbols without dance is when you ahve dance on cd.

[uneven scarab]

thats the thing though you dont wanna hold symbols

[glossy turtle]

then I dont get this answer

[wind canopy]

If you dance, you're gonna SoD

However, you can SoD without dancing

[glossy turtle]

yes, but dont you only wanna do that if dance is on cd?

[uneven scarab]

No

If you need to save dance charges for burst

But you have time to use a sod

then you would solo sod

[swift tinsel]

Essentially, you want to make sure you have 1 charge of dance ready and 30 seconds left on the cd of the other charge when flag is up

[glossy turtle]

ok that makes sense

ok so you sometimes wanna use symbols while still having dance

[wind canopy]

Yes

[swift tinsel]

Right, its more about making sure you have what you need for your big burst

[uneven scarab]

Its not something that happens often but yes

[swift tinsel]

and adjusting to what you have ready when sectech comes off cd

between big cd windows

[uneven scarab]

Sub is ALL about getting your cd timers down to a science

and knowing when you can use what

[swift tinsel]

and they're somewhat flexible which makes it fun

[uneven scarab]

Its super fun

[swift tinsel]

its definitely the kind of thing you want to play around with and test out

because it allows you to line things up with certain mechanics which is really satisfying

[uneven scarab]

Lining dance+sod on queen roots

always gets me hype

[alpine wraith]

ovi nax is a cool mental situation

[swift tinsel]

Same, nuking a set feels so good

[uneven scarab]

Feels SOOO good

[alpine wraith]

you can double dance all egg spawns

but you need to do some things in between

[uneven scarab]

TRUE

[alpine wraith]

to make that happen

[swift tinsel]

watching you shoot up right behind the fury warrior lol

[alpine wraith]

if only i had bear buff i almost had rank 1 sadged

[uneven scarab]

I have a 97 on ovinax

No warrior shout/vers buff

[alpine wraith]

rip

[uneven scarab]

[swift tinsel]

cursed timeline

[uneven scarab]

so very close

[alpine wraith]

big blaster

didnt get super good trinket procs tho

[uneven scarab]

Highest dam sectech on court?

thats been my new fav thing to play in raid

[alpine wraith]

havent gotten to p2 where you actually get the second sec tech on amp

[hazy breach]

Not on court

[alpine wraith]

should be like 11m per

[hazy breach]

But big bonks nevertheless

[uneven scarab]

Gah DAMN

5.5 hit i think is my biggest

[hazy breach]

Im channeling my inner hachadino

Linking sectech crits

[alpine wraith]

big blaster

maybe i begin doing delves again to see if i can get hero track knife

on vault now that we are extending for queen

[uneven scarab]

i still wanna get a knife

I been super unlucky tho

Delves keep giving me poopoo

[hazy breach]

I have one but im probably gonna swap to contract next week when i can upgrade it to max

[uneven scarab]

Im rocking ovinax egg

Pretty solid

[hazy breach]

Ye but it seems annoying

[alpine wraith]

i have contract too but it procs like shit

[hazy breach]

Maybe thats the play though

[uneven scarab]

I have not used the on use for it once

Tbh

[vale pine]

i disslike egg, it feels meh to play

[uneven scarab]

just letting it ride

[alpine wraith]

every time i proc it like 1% less dmg overall than top logs

dog trink

[uneven scarab]

Same

I have never had contract do over like 2%

[alpine wraith]

cursed fuck trink

[uneven scarab]

No good mastery passive trinks for agi

[alpine wraith]

next season we get heart of azerokk pog

motherlode will be a funny one

[jolly pasture]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

Resonating Heart you mean?

[mighty citrus]

team on queen it happens that my vanish breaks in the opener, what can be the reason here?

[lilac stag]

You’re taking damage

[mighty citrus]

mh the green stuff should not go through cloak right?

[uneven scarab]

There is also the bug with vanish

If you strike too fast after vanish

it breaks vanish lmao

[mighty citrus]

oh well 😄

[lilac stag]

Look at your log for dmg taken.

If not you hit strike too quickly.

welcome to sub rogue

[uneven scarab]

punished

[mighty citrus]

i cant see sin anymore

so i thought i want to have some fun but yeah

need to learn still 😄

[left ledge]

I wait until right before my gcd comes up again

Then vanish strike

Makes it a lot more consistent

Pressing it too quickly has never been a problem for me idk

But I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a real bug

This spec is just bug simulator

[uneven scarab]

it happens to me all the time bc i spam strike right after i vanish

but yeah theres def a small window for it right after vanish where it just bricks

[pliant topaz]

^ pretty sure the bug is associated with spamming strike too fast after vanishing

[zenith oriole]

After runnning the whole evening dungeons as sub rogue my verdict: Spec is fun and playable. But the damage profile could use some love. When u dont have dance and symbols you can literally be afk

[vale pine]

you have the same profile on assassination

but with longer cycles

the diffrence is, assassination is allowed to do absurd aoe while having the same profile

[zenith oriole]

Well assa is the "pooling" specc. Yet I have to do alot more pooling on Sub

[vale pine]

assassiantion is energy flooded with more targets

subtlety got a heavy nerf to energy costs

for storm/backstab

especially the storm ones ended up creating a very bad feedback loop

but i do think this opinion isn't shared

the dev team was the one introducing the change and as such probably have a justification for it

keep in mind that outside opinions are only relevant as much as the team is willing to accept the feedback

[edgy zenith]

has anyone gotten above 2M overall in a weekly ara? legit cannot do it

[vale pine]

as well as that the public opinion is likely diffrent from the internal vision a lot of times, which isn't always a bad thing

[edgy zenith]

that's not entirely true. sin does insane damage outside of CDs too, lmao

[vestal escarp]

ok the nice guy arc is over

[hazy breach]

Idk assa doesnt really have the same profile

[vestal escarp]

i hope DS become meta

[hazy breach]

Theyre mostly a sustained spec in aoe

[vale pine]

assassiantion has a diffrent aoe profile

[vestal escarp]

fuck parries on the others

[vale pine]

their single target is fairly similar

the aoe design is just very diffrent

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[edgy zenith]

nah, I don't even think that's true. they have long ramp on a 2min timer, we have immediate damage on a 1.5m timer

[vale pine]

single target profile for sin

and sub

[alpine wraith]

i've gotten 2m on some dungs

but it is not usual

[edgy zenith]

maybe I need to do higher than 10s

lmao

I've gotten a 2M with aug obviously, but natty 2M overall without aug in a 10

seems very hard

[vale pine]

i also don't think subtleties profile is bad

its more that this seasons balancing is wild

so some things stay noticable ahead of the average

[edgy zenith]

the outliers right now are WAY too high

but everythign else is fairly balanced in all honesty

[vale pine]

exactly

[hazy breach]

Its not even that wild

Were still talking within single digit percentages of difference

[edgy zenith]

Sin, FDK, both Sham specs, and Frost mage are a little too strong, everything else is fairly balanced in AoE

err, not AoE, but M+ specifically

[vale pine]

the distribution is not too bad

like we had in previouse seasons

where you essentially only played one combo always

[edgy zenith]

ST balance is probably the best we've had in a WHILE ngl

only specs truly struggling are Locks

[vale pine]

^ this was pmuch all seasons since aug was introduced before tww

i think its just diffrent specs have diffrent benefits

and DF roulette did not give a clear win to every spec, so there are some that are overall just more versatile

and very well tuned

[edgy zenith]

to give an idea of how good the ST balance is. Sikran has 11 unique specs for top 100 damage on mythic

[vale pine]

like if you look at the distribution

the setups changed a lot and seem to have gotten more versatile

[topaz raptor]

where are these charts

[vale pine]

away from the early very one sided meta

thats for DF s4

[hazy breach]

How many of each spec is inside the 0.1% title range for m+

[vale pine]

at the end

tww

[topaz raptor]

yeah but what site

[vale pine]

from https://mythicstats.com/meta?expansion=tww

[topaz raptor]

ty

[edgy zenith]

Volcoross had 2 unique specs: BM and Arms for top 100 damage. Sikran has 11.

[hazy breach]

Unironically started logging my runs so sub is gonna look better in those charts

And now its ramping

[edgy zenith]

for real, I gotta start logging dungeon runs

so many rank 1s down the drain bc no logging

[vale pine]

sub is a bit underrated due to the weak start of the xpac

[edgy zenith]

and people hate this spec, so why would they play it if Sin is ALSO better

[topaz raptor]

sub is fun

[vale pine]

assassiantion is just overall more damage

[topaz raptor]

but i don't have a telephone

[vale pine]

and simpler rotation

so its still better overall, outside of some specific dungeons/bosses

[hazy breach]

Idk if i'd say its simpler

[topaz raptor]

feels pretty fuckin troll to play sub without a telephone

[tight bloom]

I tag as assa and switch back to sub right before the pull

[bitter dagger]

I don't mind if sin is overall more damage. I dislike when we have fotm players on sub. Always good for new people to try/play the spec but I dislike fotm players because they lack identity and it triggers me more than it should haha

[vale pine]

fair the aoe rotation is not trivial anymore

[hazy breach]

Sub does pretty much the same thing regardless of target count nowadays

[topaz raptor]

it's easier than ever to play an alt this xpac, it

[hazy breach]

Whereas assa has a bunch of shit that depends on it and changes your play a little bit

[topaz raptor]

it's kind of a dated grumpy old man view to be mad over fotm players

[bitter dagger]

And I'm fine being that grumpy person.

[vale pine]

well you can play deathstalker too 😛

but i understand what you mean, sub aoe outside of replicating shadows is not that complicated

[bitter dagger]

Just requires discipline to how when to hold dance etc so you have double for cds

[fair stump]

I'd rather align cooldowns than try to maintain ttk envenom but maybe that's just me

[vale pine]

sub is fundermentally all about cooldown management

i assume you could say

[fair stump]

The only thing I miss from assa while playing sub is the aoe silence

[vale pine]

that sub is difficult because of cdr mechanisms, because of mechancis like sht/shadowcraft and the additional effort you need to do to spread rupture

[fair stump]

How much is usually rupture dmg on aoe?

[vale pine]

depends on the pack

if stuff survives long you usually spread a lot

[fair stump]

do you want to apply rupture on every mob before bursting?

[vale pine]

but when there are only a few mobs with high hp

you typically either rupture the main target

or spread to the 2-3

[vale pine]

in aoe with long living mobs yes

but you typically can't delay cooldowns too long

packs get smaller over time

and sub still has a little ramp up

so delaying cooldowns can mean a lot of damage loss on adds that die fast

[fair stump]

Yeah, I've seen that trying to apply rupture costs me a lot of dmg

I'd love to see some povs on sub players

The only one I know so far is rangno

[vale pine]

so it depends heavily on your group, key and pack

most of the time, its better to cast rupture one or two times

and then when mobs are gathered just blast cds

[tight bloom]

Below 10 you’d probably rapture on boss only

And non fortify weeks

[vale pine]

just to be clear, i think sin has more rotation-changing things

but all specs are now equipped with blade flurry

and dots have on both auto spread

so its very subjective to discuss what spec is more difficult in aoe

[narrow shadow]

For me half of the difficulty of sub is the freaking trinket

[left ledge]

For me the difficulty is surviving the mental onslaught of sht having two delayed bugged mechanics

I think that sets sub apart as the hardest spec ever seen

[narrow shadow]

I think havoc is worse rn tbh

3 different cooldown windows to align and dashes as part of the rotation

For shit dps outside of the big burst window

I'm honestly quite happy with rogue

Well, assa and sub

I don't play outlaw much

[lilac stag]

@pliant topaz beat a ret. time to retire

[pliant topaz]

What a day to be alive!

[edgy zenith]

wow he must be in a wheelchair in real life too!

[left ledge]

Sub actually has good overall in dungeons

I was pulling 2 mil in most dungeons

Ofc 2 mil is like

Trying hard

Whereas assa does that by drooling on the keyboard

[alpine wraith]

i always cope i help more on bosses

[left ledge]

I mean you’re not wrong

Our boss dam in dungeons is crazy

[glossy turtle]

is fatebound just better, for raid?

[grave abyss]

wrong channel?

[viscid ocean]

when i play contract

why details shows 0 dmg from it most of the time?

[topaz raptor]

have you done any damage with the ability "Phantom Reaping"?

[bleak pasture]

Range it has issues hitting bosses like bloodhound

Or could be*

[pliant topaz]

Idk man, sub feels better than sin to me on most keys. Only place where sub feels genuinely bad is ara Kara and I’m pretty sure it’s because nimble is bugged there

[tribal blade]

i wouldn't be surprised if that's the case

because every time i've tried using sub in ara it's shockingly low dps

i was getting so confused why i'm doing the literal exact same rotation in ara and getting nowhere near the same output as other dungeons

[pliant topaz]

Stealthi brought it up to me week 2 of the expansion. Pretty sure it’s bugged

[hollow pawn]

quick rotation question, when im holding dance for upcoming flag/blades, i feel like im sitting on secret tech for a bit. Do i ever use outside of dance or is it ok to hold for CDs

[tribal blade]

i tried using sub iirc last week or so, and did like 1.5-6 mil overall

it was very low

maybe i did a lot of mistakes, i don't remember well

[half comet]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

ye first part of arakara nimble doesnt work

[pliant topaz]

^

[short radish]

???????????????????

wym doesnt work

like just doesnt activate?

[bleak wind]

black powder goes brrr

[hazy breach]

Ye it just does no damage

In the first part of ara kara

Or well, might be depending on what you hit or something, maybe its only when you hit the big spider

Idk something breaks it atleast

So i just play assa there

[young path]

think its a EU bug?

[hazy breach]

Couldve been fixed tbf, i havent checked recently

MAybe im just lying, idk

[short radish]

i think i ran an ara kara yesterday and it was okay

but maybe i didnt pay tha tmuch attention

[sturdy moon]

!craft

[short radish]

!embelishment

[pliant topaz]

!random0.1%mightbebetterstuff

[tribal blade]

i just found the shittiest work around

just tried a 15 DB, we get to 2nd pull

the tank dc's mid pull and everyone dies

i look at the tank- he's on tichondrius

BUT

he's in a ragnaros guild

so this guy is baiting people by making it seem like he's not on rag

[sullen hare]

1000 IQ plays

[tribal blade]

what a fucking guy

[short radish]

shit thats so big brain

[tribal blade]

ragnaros players figuring out new ways to int

well maybe i shouldn't put them all under the same umbrealla, i've played with some seriously good rag players who have stable internet connections

[edgy zenith]

holy

[tribal blade]

dO yOu NeEd

[edgy zenith]

bag secured

[tribal blade]

my dps always seems off in ara so i think you right

[strange chasm]

Love my finerys being bugged and not getting 2.25% for queen

[hazy breach]

Next time for sure

[pliant topaz]

[strange chasm]

lmao

[wind canopy]

Y u guis no kill her yet?

[pliant topaz]

https://tenor.com/view/krill-issue-skill-issue-krill-issue-gif-25572478

[wind canopy]

I expect kills tonight

[pliant topaz]

its dead. im already logging into ffxiv

[tribal blade]

tried sub in siege for the first time in a while

was pretty good

[young roost]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

Big numbers on the first boss, pretty good

Also way more tanky for dispels on last boss

[tribal blade]

i fucked up 1st boss, well i didn't fuck up, the ranged did

and took way too long to bit a 1st bomb

while i was sitting on cds

[hazy breach]

And in the 14s i did my cooldowns lined up pretty well with the slam tentacles so i always had it up when we moved to the next one

[tribal blade]

but yeah the ST dam is way better

didn't make it to last boss because this group was pretty bad

but i know last boss will be infinitely better as sub than sin

are you just sending stuff on cd on 1st boss

or trying to line up a bit

it woulda been fine, but for some reason the ranged in this group i did took forever to finally find a bomb

[hazy breach]

Dances with bomb but usually the first bomb gets popped around the time of your second dance in flag anyway

[strange chasm]

not dead yet 😦

[pliant topaz]

itll die soon u got it

[hazy breach]

The big cds you should probably time better but mostly so you dont have to run out of his spin ig

[tribal blade]

haha we were nowhere near close enough to get that 1st bomb at that time sadly

[tribal blade]

can anyone help me with this focus casting WA, it's set to only play on certain interrupts in dungeons, but i want to have it warn me on any interruptible cast from my focus

do i just unselect exact spell ID

ok yes that's it, figured it out, disregard

[strange chasm]

we kill lets go

[pliant topaz]

lets gooooo

[chrome fern]

dumb question probably, but all the m+ logs (the 2 i looked at @hazy breach ) use ascendance and writhing band, is this bis or is this a relic of double speccing sin

[wind canopy]

Grats

[lilac stag]

2x focusing for sub

but they’re all insignificant.

[chrome fern]

yeah cool, im just making a second rogue to be sub only, need all the help i can get

freed up from double spec shenanigans

also how much do stats matter for sub, and why does bloodmallet say haste is strong

[idle aurora]

Man I am having some huge issues in my+

It’s like I’m either blowing too many cooldowns so I don’t have enough for major burst cycle or I hold way too long

Do you guys have like a happy medium or any advice or do you just full send

[wind canopy]

Should be sending whenever you can

[idle aurora]

Do you ever pool for flag

[uncut bloom]

Yeah just send it unless the pack is about to die

[idle aurora]

And do you ever go into burst when it’s one big mob left

[lilac stag]

Blood mallets has no talents. Use !fuu

[chrome fern]

ty

[uncut bloom]

I mean if the mob needs to die and isn’t dying quick enough then sure. Otherwise hopefully tank pulls it into something

[fallow nimbus]

What can cause the logs bug at queen that akaari is its own entry again? Is it platforms in p2?

Looks like it. 36 hits with 30mio dmg in p2

[vale pine]

its not too bad if you realize its always spawning at the same position

!transmitter

[wicked jolt]

The orb and circle from Treacherous Transmitter always spawn in the same spot. Relative to how your character is facing it spawns northeast/1:30 o'clock/frontright, this means you can know where it will spawn and react accordingly.
https://i.imgur.com/cTPN4Tz.png

[narrow shadow]

I knew, but I hate that platform that you gotta sit there for like 3 secs

I mean, on prepull it's ez

But when you gotta send in the middle of a fight it can be annoying

[vale pine]

you can turn around

and spawn it behind you

which is a lot easier on some fights

because melee is still a clusterfuck

[narrow shadow]

Yeah, I'm sure it can be played around. Just the me tal toll of all the things already going on, plus that trinket

Mental*

[vale pine]

but i am with you

the trinket is rly good

but some of the options are ... not great

e.g. we did the aniversity raid yesterday

and my orb quickly moved into a wall

i didn't even know the orb can move through walls

[narrow shadow]

Damn, wtf

[vale pine]

i haven't experienced that in the regular raid

so can't say if its just in timewalking content

the orb is in general interessting

because e.g. in underwater delves

[clear trail]

I've had the orb just...float off of the platform on queen in p3 before

Fun times

[vale pine]

you can't pick it up in underwater delves

[fallow nimbus]

The orb never leaves its z axis

Or y?

[narrow shadow]

Or x

[vale pine]

just fyi xyz can be defined diffrently ^^

but the trinket is still rly cool

if you use it in open world

you can spawn a rare mob which drops a toy

[narrow shadow]

If it only gave mastery instead of haste also

But I'm already asking for too much

[fallow nimbus]

I hope we get another good 1.5min trinket in the next raidcontent

[vale pine]

the void reaper

[vale pine]

we will see

season 2 is still a bit of a questionmark for subtlety

we currently rely on tier set and trinkets a lot to compete

way more than other specs

[narrow shadow]

Well, with blizz balancing who knows

[vale pine]

blizz balancing is the best ever

[fallow nimbus]

When the dh is your prefered step target but he does the wierdest wave skip at queen in p3 and is out of step range

[vale pine]

or not great

depending on who you ask

this is true for every single patch for the last xpacs

i had a lot of discussions in DF around that topic

[fallow nimbus]

Dmg up, energy costs down, another good trinket and we are probably fine

[vale pine]

It is hard to predict

[fallow nimbus]

Maybe 0.1 extra on deepening

[vale pine]

but our damage phases are currently so good because of tier set and trinket

[sullen hare]

Enhancement got a metric fuck load of its power from its 4set didn't it? Like 25% worth?

[vale pine]

remove both and you lose quite some of our strength

enhancement needs to be op

because it lost wft

so at least for 1-2 patches, it will be rly good

[clever delta]

gamers, on queen if i wanna save vanish for roots, how do i do opener? just skip vanish ss evis and go in cds right away?

[vale pine]

probably just do 2 backstabs

[clever delta]

with my luck i will be at 3 cps

😄

but its just for snd so it dosnt matter i guees

[vale pine]

you strike-evi

so the vanish is for rupture

[clever delta]

okay, i forgot the opener

[tribal blade]

i feel like they redesigned sub with the tier set in mind

because we gained so much more value from out tier set with the new talents

or it was just a happy accident

either way it's a win

[vale pine]

i don't think so

[clever delta]

we have two nice tier sets in row

[tribal blade]

prob not you right

[narrow shadow]

It's very... unpredictable

For better or worse

[vale pine]

i think its a consequence of small decisions

ER change was not ment as a sub buff

they just wanted to make it passive, but subtlety by design benefits the most from stronger finishers

and we got a ~3-4% buff as a consequence

the rest is just trying to replace dust

[thick temple]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[vale pine]

dust was seen probably internally as a big problem

because there was a certain perception build around it

based on how complicated it was in 10.2

[narrow shadow]

Honestly I liked dust, not sure if it's a hot take around here

[clever delta]

many did

and many did not 🙂

[vale pine]

it was when most ppl played it and feedback from higher up players ended up not very positive

also keep in mind

many players got forced to learn sub mid tier

[sullen hare]

I don't mind not having dust but I wish they didn't nerf the buff length of shadow blades

[vale pine]

which does not help to make you fall in love with a spec

forcing somone to play something in my opinion

just to be clear this is a opinion, many disagree i assume

will lead to you having a more negative experience

[narrow shadow]

I've been playing sub since the days that shadowstep was the capstone and usable only in stealth

[vale pine]

especially if you need to suddenly learn the hardest spec in the game

[tribal blade]

yes most of the people who were forced to learn sub were absolutely miserable

[narrow shadow]

Maybe that's why I like the current iteration

[sullen hare]

Them lining up blades and flag but nerfing blades really makes it feel like we just aren't allowed to have one nice thing without taking away another nice thing

[tribal blade]

all the sin rogues in S3 were losing their minds

over sub

[vale pine]

it was my experience

[tribal blade]

getting spammed with msgs?

[vale pine]

with many people who asked for advise in my dms

when switching

i still occationally get some dm's

[sullen hare]

I like the way sub feels in m+ right now. Genuinely do. Wasn't expecting to but here we are

[clever delta]

it was atleast rewarding with playing it right

[tribal blade]

relearning reworked sub was pretty hard

[vale pine]

e.g. got one this week from a DH rerolling to sub, which had some probems understanding some concepts but he wanted to play it on queen mythic

[tribal blade]

that was the most difficulty i've ever had with learning a new rotation

[vale pine]

tho unlike in 10.2

this conversation was mostly positive, because the player on his own wanted to learn/switch

[tribal blade]

i feel like current sub is pretty easy to explain for the most part

so long as people know what to do in dance

[vale pine]

yes

[tribal blade]

explaining cd usage is simpler now

compared to before

[vale pine]

but people still have problems with cooldown management

[tribal blade]

it does still suffer from the issue of offset cds

and cds resetting at different rates

[vale pine]

you rarely have a spec which does not just use cooldowns on cooldown

and sub is only obviouse for the opener

after that things fall appart

do i use symbols on cd?

[tribal blade]

let me know what you think of this fuu, but i think one of the problems left to solve is the holding almost everything before cds come back up

[vale pine]

when do i hold cds?

[tribal blade]

so you can't press anything except a naked sectec ~30 secs before cds

[narrow shadow]

I think symbols is the main offender

[fallow nimbus]

Dance cdr is

[tribal blade]

it's a bit of a problem where we just have absolutely nothing right before cds are back up

[vale pine]

its just human nature

[narrow shadow]

CDR in general

Sounds great

Doesn't work

[fallow nimbus]

Yes

[vale pine]

i explain what i mean with a diffrent exaample

think of crafting

the best way to craft is to wait and craft once you did the raid, porentially did some mythic+ and gathered some gear

[fallow nimbus]

CB should be 30 sec

[vale pine]

yet, the majority will craft straight up when they get the first spark

they know very well that waiting for the right moment could give them a massive advantage

but want to have the gear piece right now

[tribal blade]

haha yeah i guess i'm just not patient in that way

[vale pine]

and i think its the same with cooldown management

sitting on cooldowns feels weird

i have 2 charges of symbols

WHY DO I NOT USE IT

HOW LONG DO I NEED TO WAIT.... GOD DAM IT

sry, just tried to emphasize it

your intuition is to use your cooldowns to get the cd rolling

and you rarely hold

if you hold its like on assassination

you have 30 seconds cd

and your big cooldowns every minute

with 2 charges, its very obviouse why holding is a benefit

and as such it feels a lot more natural

but with 25 second cd and 3 charges, with big cooldowns every 1 min 30

do i hold 3 symbols and send every 1 min 30?

[narrow shadow]

nothing lines up on its own basically

[vale pine]

i lose 15 sec cd every time, so sounds bad

also if i hold

[narrow shadow]

especially due to CDR

[vale pine]

i only have 2 charges of shadow dance

and secret has no charge system

do i just send secret on cd

and what about dance??

how long is dance cd?

how much without using symbols

what if i use symbols one time

what if i use dance

how does this change the cooldown

just to be clear, i just try to highlight questions that are not intuitively answered

you don't know

[narrow shadow]

something they could do is make dance a static 30 secs, get rid of all CDR and keep the charges

[vale pine]

especially not as a new player

[narrow shadow]

but then people might n ot like the straightforwardness

[vale pine]

the problem is