subtlety

[hazy breach]

Sub also blasts boss damage though, its pretty much identical to sins boss dps

All 3 specs are good really

[tribal blade]

BIG

[hazy breach]

nw and cot 14

Havent completed any 15s yet though

I really like sub in CoT though

Having full cds on every eye feels so crisp

[raven sluice]

In m+ do you use your shorter cds between packs or save for big burst windows?

[hazy breach]

You want to make sure you always have 2 symbols and 2 dances for every flag window

[tribal blade]

yeah i prefer playing sub in CoT

CoT is also a dungeon you actually want to have good survivability too

[hazy breach]

You go from that and then try to squeeze in as many dances+symbols you can without missing out on that

[tribal blade]

because the bosses in there are really hard on the healer

[hazy breach]

(enhance died from aggro during all his cds on a big pack, but still)

[tribal blade]

massive

when i was trying to time 13 CoT it was a huge struggle using sin

and then i swapped to sub for the next one and timed it

granted there was an actual healer with a brain in there too

but being sub helped a lot

[hazy breach]

The ol swappero of changing to sub right before the key starts kinda sucks though

Because then you cant prep 7 superchargers

[tribal blade]

haha damn

[hazy breach]

For some reason starting the key doesnt reset them to 2 like pulling a boss does

[tribal blade]

i actually didn't know that

that's huge tech

did you see me repping sub in 15 DB with yoda?

[hazy breach]

I did not

[tribal blade]

my buddy and i were doing our 15 DB

[hazy breach]

You can also use deathmark on a turnip and have it time out right as you start the key

[tribal blade]

and his chat before the key started were saying "oh a sub rogue, what a troll"

[hazy breach]

And you'll have lingering as assa

[tribal blade]

and then after i was top dps in 1st pull everyone had their minds blown haha

[edgy zenith]

holy fuck, insane tech, had no idea

[tribal blade]

OOO big tech too

[hazy breach]

Ye ive had lots of people comment stuff like

"did sub get buffed? Wtf is that boss dps"

When i pug

[tribal blade]

yeah i got the same thing in a different DB i did

i beat the dk in damage

and he was losing his mind over it after the key was over

[hazy breach]

Sub is just unironically strong, not stronger than sin, but really strong

[tribal blade]

i definitely play sub better than sin

the few things i wish would get changed are reducing storm and stab energy costs

and maybe bumping up deepening cdr a bit

plus being able to proc UB on storm

my wishlist

[hazy breach]

replicating bugfix

[tribal blade]

oh i forgot about that

[hazy breach]

I do not have any insider information, but i am kinda convinced sub is gonna get a non-burst related tier bonus next patch

And its probably gonna be dance uptime related

[tribal blade]

having more dance uptime is kinda a burst related bonus no?

that would be interesting

[hazy breach]

Not really

[tribal blade]

oh right i get you

[hazy breach]

Like our current bonus makes our big burst bigger

[light imp]

you think? didnt they just give that to us with the updated first dance?

[tribal blade]

yes you right

more dance uptime doesn't increase our burst in cds yeah

that would be very nice, being outside dance is depression atm

[hazy breach]

Idm being outside of dance

What i do mind is the non-dance symbols

Those feel real bad

[tribal blade]

yes those are pretty cringe

i'm always worried about them fixing spec problems using the tier sets though

like how we lost S3+4 tierset

and then suddenly our cdr is in the toilet.

[pliant topaz]

yeah i just meant like sub does something sin doesnt, but like at this point they litearlly gutted the boss like a fish play w/e

[light imp]

you mean like how Spriest was carried by their artifact in legion lol

[pliant topaz]

i havent seen a single 15 in lfg yet. i dont even know if anyones pugging anything at that point lmfao

[light imp]

i can barely get people to stop inting in 10s

[tribal blade]

there are SOME, but not a lot

and it's really hard to get into them

i have the problem of having everything timed on 14

but haven't timed a single 15 yet

because every 15 i've attempted people have fucked up

me and my buddy even lost our 15 DB because yoda accidently pulled trash on his fdk and wiped us twice >_<

[hazy breach]

Ye the boss got absolutely blasted

I felt like reducing the amount of circles and the amount of web blades was probably enough already but ig they wanted to go harder

[pliant topaz]

yeah u probably just need a 5 stack. Im probably gonna start pushing in 2 weeks. hopefully my friends are playing by then or im not playing either

[pliant topaz]

u know how they gut CE bosses end of tiers for anyone close to kill it? it looks like that type of nerf

[tribal blade]

you really do, it's pretty bad trying to go solo atm

those are some crazy nerfs

i didn't expect them to be that big

[pliant topaz]

is hof even closed?

[tribal blade]

no idea

must be close if not

don't they usually do these types of massive nerfs after HoF is closed

[pliant topaz]

nah i checked not even close to being finished

probably next week then

[spiral needle]

Big nerfs generally land around 100 guilds killing

[pliant topaz]

theres like 114 kills so far

[spiral needle]

hof changed to top 200 so that's a bit long to wait

[tribal blade]

lol damn they must have recognized it's just way too much then

[short radish]

probably filled next week

[lilac stag]

Wonder if sub still needed after the nerfs

Or if we’ll see more assa logs

[grave abyss]

would y'all ever go exhilarating execution over ephemeral bond? some quick napkin math says it's comparable amounts of raw healing with the added benefit of some shields

though not as helpful in emergencies I guess

[lilac stag]

I take it all the time in keys

!transmitter

[wicked jolt]

The orb and circle from Treacherous Transmitter always spawn in the same spot. Relative to how your character is facing it spawns northeast/1:30 o'clock/frontright, this means you can know where it will spawn and react accordingly.
https://i.imgur.com/cTPN4Tz.png

[hazy breach]

Generally execution is better in keys and bond in raid

But unfortunately execution got a lot weaker when were not spamming black powder

Since nimble is contributing towards the shield, its only the pure ST evis

[frail sequoia]

is sub more up front and bursty than sin in keys? I've been playing sin for a bit but I'm thinking about trying out sub

[hazy breach]

Yes, sub is way more bursty

In aoe assa is mostly sustained damage

[frail sequoia]

gotcha, makes sense!

[hazy breach]

Assa is gonna do more on big aoe pulls, but sub has absolutely insane boss damage

[wooden kernel]

carried by aug but sub feeling good ++11 Mots

[spring torrent]

anyone in here use a specific talent build for the Queen?

[tepid trellis]

just went imp sht instead of RS, cuz the RS bug makes me uncontrollably mad

[spring torrent]

wait what is the RS bug?

[hazy breach]

It makes it so your shadowcraft refunds can happen across the entire gcd after finishing, rather than whenever you finish

So if you eviscerate > proc sht to 7 sht 0.6s after you pressed evis it will refund it

Which means youll sometimes end up casting shadowstrikes with full cp because you werent expecting the random refund 0.4s before your strike

[spark tusk]

it's not predictable or consistent either

sometimes it doesn't happen and the refund is quick, sometimes it's like 0.9 seconds after finishing

it's pain

[tepid trellis]

as mario wouldve said

[hazy breach]

It is consistent

[tepid trellis]

ITSA SHIT

[spark tusk]

I've had it happen all over the place

[hazy breach]

Its always when you proc sht up to 7 in the gcd after finishing

[spark tusk]

inconsistently

[hazy breach]

It can just happen all of the gcd

The sht procs arent consistent sure

[spark tusk]

I see

[hazy breach]

Its still sometimes impossible to play around it if you get unlucky and get the refund like 0.1s before your strike

But it is what it is

[tepid trellis]

thats not true tho

i just tested it

ruptured, waited 3 sec

pressed sod

got cps

[hazy breach]

Ok well, in practice you'd be using your sht stacks on the next gcd

[pliant topaz]

theres another bug too btw for it

u could have 12 sht stacks

sod up

it wont refund

[hazy breach]

Thats not only with replicating though is it

[pliant topaz]

yeah

i meant sht related bugs

[hazy breach]

Thats some vanish/just pressed dance/dance just ended stuff

[pliant topaz]

its actually pretty bad btw

because it means you need to re sod to get them

but that also means u get 3 back to back finishers early in dance

which means u dont get to consume disorienting strikes

[tepid trellis]

funny thing tho

it can only do it once per SoD

even if you refresh rupture

it wont do it again from my testing

but if i recast SoD as well

it consumes em again

[hazy breach]

Ye its all just weird and janky

But nobody plays the spec so no prio on bugfixes

[spring torrent]

wait RS is relentless strikes right?

[hazy breach]

No replicating shadows

Which should have literally nothing to do with it

But for some reason it does

[spring torrent]

oh ok

[tepid trellis]

that was my weekly wow journey now we afk again until reclear in 7 days

[spring torrent]

wait so what is the build you guys are using for ansurek? because that's not on the single target build?

[hazy breach]

It is

[spring torrent]

this one?

[tepid trellis]

yes

[spring torrent]

this is my build for ST

[tepid trellis]

well you are DS

[spring torrent]

oh, I've been using the deathstalker one is that one worse?

[tepid trellis]

realistically they are about the same on pure ST

but Trickster also has free cleave

and is more bursty

• more fun

until Coup charges you into a web blade on ansurek and you die

[spring torrent]

ah, I

I see, so because the heavier aoe we should go trickster on this fight

[tepid trellis]

anything that isnt 100% single target

you would play DS

trickster*

[spring torrent]

also what is Imp sh then ?

[tepid trellis]

improved shadow technique

thatfucker

[spring torrent]

ok so take that instead of RS

ty

[tepid trellis]

thats what i do

very slightly less dmg, but removes the tilt factor for me

[spring torrent]

I see thank you!

[short radish]

🙃

why are we still fighting against the bugs

[lilac stag]

always and forever

[tribal blade]

@hazy breach when you do the 1st pull of a key with 7 stacks of supercharger do you try not to spread too many ruptures before going into cds

[hazy breach]

Ye

Most first pulls things just die right as flag ends anyway

or even before

[sinful sluice]

Wait how do you build 7 supercharger stacks?

Doesnt they reset to 2 when you put the keystone in

[tribal blade]

it doesn't for keys

only raid bosses

[alpine wraith]

it does reset to 2 for keys too

but just as they begin

[edgy zenith]

We don’t care about pressing bp in ST anymore right? Just send the coup?

[alpine wraith]

only hold in very special ocasions

[tribal blade]

does anyone know off the top of their head how much dps skyfury buff gives us in M+

[golden kelp]

Why do we eviscerate once before cooldowns? I also see some people in logs doing it before the flag

[wind canopy]

Get Slice and Dice going

[golden kelp]

ah yeah true

[gaunt finch]

Does anyone have a weakaura to show how many charges on symbols you have?

[uncut socket]

its likely in every single ui pack by now, if you have one you cant update you can just steal one from another package and edit size - might be a easier way but thats how i did it

[fierce minnow]

coup dash is the absolute most useless thing on earth

pls remove

[vale pine]

its good to charge you into shit on queen

[fierce minnow]

it wiped me on zekvir ?? aswell, stupid dash, never ever have i caught myself saying "ye that is really useful!"

[keen dome]

It's very powerful. So powerful it can charge you offline.

[scarlet heath]

Coup not giving slice n dice is stupid also

[fierce minnow]

spaghetti code

[scarlet heath]

it does make sense from a coding perspective since you are pretty much casting another spell

but if I press Evis I would like to get benefits as if I actually casted Evis

so they can just add coup's flag to cut to the chase and be done with it

[native zodiac]

When you are in the air on queen and got coup ready and press it

It puts you on the ground into the nova

Also a classic

[tribal blade]

wait a second, can you just step princess immediately as soon as daggers go out

and you're immediately safe from her shotgun blast

[tepid trellis]

from her what now

[scarlet heath]

https://tenor.com/view/reload-shotgun-dale-gribble-rusty-shackleford-king-of-the-hill-gif-15641945943961425415

[topaz raptor]

I think it’s not that simple

They kinda cover the whole room

[tribal blade]

it's what i call it when she shoots em out 😉

that shotgun action

BAM

[tribal blade]

yeah true, i just thought it might be possible

[tepid trellis]

they go off 1 by 1 tho

they spawn in sequence and go off in sequence

[tribal blade]

more so the spread on it

the ones that come off her

[tepid trellis]

well what happens when you step her, and 1-2 are baited right behind her?

like each clone targets someone with the same exact pattern as the boss shoots out

so

somebody could be standing in way where some lines up right behind her

so its def not a guarantee safety

[haughty mural]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sly shore]

She always turns and faces the way the first daggers will go so yeah

but you'll only be safe for the first one

still gotta move

just helps with pre-moving tbf

[haughty mural]

are the combinations in your spreadsheet up to date @vale pine ? (sorry for the ping)

[sly shore]

not sorry for the ping @vale pine

[haughty mural]

[vale pine]

yes

[haughty mural]

thought transmitter would be ahead more % wise

[vale pine]

transmitter is rly good

[haughty mural]

i know. thats why i was wondering

[uncut socket]

same as the windwalker thing a while back, i belive they made a option to change it eventually, we need more options for such so we can turn off auto tea and charge

[mint swift]

How good would master assassin be for sub

Just curious

[vale pine]

you mean the origianl 100% version or the nerfed one

[sly shore]

the original was too good

[vale pine]

both probably good

[mint swift]

Nerfed

Yea

I rmemeber thinking last night what Assa talents would rock on sub

Ofc envenom would be nice, path of blood would be good, MA would be rlly nice

Poison bomb would be nice

[vale pine]

we have PE

which is a more uptime MA

so you could stack both

if it was a talent on sub

[mint swift]

Yeye

[tribal blade]

ah ok gotcha, good to know

[tribal blade]

spatter

[mint swift]

Would it be that good? It only splatters nature

[tribal blade]

oh you meant talents that had no change whatsoever

oh seal fate

100% seal fate

sub with seal fate is so good

[mint swift]

Yea

[tribal blade]

that would be the pick every time

our cdr would go through the roof

in aoe you basically generate close to or full CPs on low target counts

it was a pretty big blow to sub when we lost seal fate

[bright fable]

Hello, do you have some streamer or video of sub doing high keys? (i cant find rn x_x )

seems like they're non existant (only assa sadly...)

[mint swift]

True

[tribal blade]

not really sadly

[vale pine]

they are kinda non existent, assassination is too strong atm

[bright fable]

[tribal blade]

it's crazy, i only use sub in half the keys i run

[bright fable]

not even one streamer who doing sub keys on stream ?

[tribal blade]

and i'm the #18 world ranked sub rogue

[tribal blade]

there's a few of us in here using sub in high keys, me, armin, eleem and stealthi are the ones i know

[bright fable]

tbh i hope they nerf enhancement and assa

[vestal escarp]

This season sub ladder is compromised

[tribal blade]

but i don't know if anyone is streaming atm

[bright fable]

seeing them everywhere is tiring

[mint swift]

I think it’s morso

How much sub is played

[tribal blade]

i don't think they'll nerf sin at all, and if they do it won't be big

[bright fable]

yeah i know some going for very high keys but no one who make video or streaming, else how sub is atm in m+ ?

[tribal blade]

because they don't want to make people feel like they made the "wrong choice" to push with

[bright fable]

atleast enough to not see only assa everytime when i tag my key

[tribal blade]

pretty good, it's not troll like it was at the start of the season

[bright fable]

between that and dk or sham

[tribal blade]

more and more people are starting to slowly see sub as a decent spec

[vale pine]

how much sub is played is a direct consequence of tuning

[tribal blade]

but there's so few of us it's very slow getting the word out

[vestal escarp]

Freed up vanish and 90s cds are good

[bright fable]

yeah the spec need some stuff to shine, like fire mage

[vale pine]

there is just little reason to switch of assassination ever since season 4 DF

in fact you ended up as the best choice in all content most of the time

[mint swift]

Fair

[vale pine]

there are like 2 fights sub can beat sin on which end up being the later ones in raid

[mint swift]

I mean I played sub
Didn’t like my dps
Swapped to Assa
Still Assa

[vale pine]

yes, thats tuning

sin is easier and better tuned

[bright fable]

still the gameplay of assa

[vale pine]

also has way more options to chose from talent wise

[tribal blade]

yeah the talent choices sin can make are very good

[vale pine]

which is game design, and depends how much effort was spend to make talents diverse/useful

[still trellis]

this is the thing holding me away from sub

[tribal blade]

you can utilize almost the entire tree

[vale pine]

sub atm needs transmitter kinda

and its even then only rly better on last 2 mythic

and e.g. silken sin is still rly good

queen i would argue sub just has better cooldown alignment

sub got buffed by a lot in 11.0.5

it is why its now rly good in raid

and better in m+

but it does not mean it beats out other rogue options noticable enough to make people switch

[tribal blade]

yeah the changes to sub were very impactful

[vale pine]

keep in mind you can on sub also switch talents

[fast cloak]

is there any way i can make use of skardyns when im missing the transmitter?

[vale pine]

*on sin

sure you can use other stat trinkets

but transmitter is what makes sub so bursty

it is why you rly want it

[vale pine]

bugfixes also attributed for quite a bit

so it ended up more overall

[tribal blade]

was it just the coup bug fix?

i don't remember if that was the only one

[vale pine]

yes

cdr and damage from coup

[tribal blade]

that one meant a lot

[vale pine]

sin also got less buffed than you would initially assume

because there was a bug introduced, i think wasn't fixed

[tribal blade]

the ttk bug?

[vale pine]

ye

so sub got better with downtime in keys

[tribal blade]

easy, you ask a friend to play trickster sub for you so the boss never parries you

heehee

[vale pine]

and got like 8% buff

sin got like 6% buff but lost like 1-2% from bugs

means sub overall got a massive buff

[fast cloak]

mh got 639 sacbrood and 626 contract/queens mandate as alternative trinkets, which of them would u suggest to substitute transmitter untill i get it?

[tribal blade]

yeah the numbers in keys is way higher

[vale pine]

supercharger is just rly good

especially if combined with tier

and transmitter

its not a discussion worth having atm

[tribal blade]

i love supercharger

on sub

[vale pine]

but season 2 could be rly bad due to these 2 dependencies

tho season 2 is a while off

so not rly a concern today

[vestal escarp]

Tier should impro tho right?

[tribal blade]

hopefully we get a good S2 tier set

[vale pine]

season 2 tier sets in DF ended up with the aim to give people something new to play

[vestal escarp]

Current tier is just dmg, as soon as it switches on a positive interacion it should be better

[vale pine]

so they introduced mechanics on tier

to make unplayed talents good

e.g. for subtlety it was the rotten focused

[vestal escarp]

My prediction on s2 tier is a form of more danfe uptime

To balance sod uptime

[vale pine]

and if they didn't fuck up some other things, we would probably have played rotten

[tribal blade]

i would rather them fix our cdr problems outside of the tier set

[vale pine]

so a not unrealistic scenario would be to make tier sets better for the "not played" hero talent

which wouldn't synergize that well

90 secound stat trinkets with big stat boni are also not that common for agi

this seaosn is more a exception to the norm

2 minute trinkets are fairly common

[tribal blade]

incoming needing to use pvp on use trinkets

[vale pine]

but do align rly poorly now

[tribal blade]

since they're 1 min

[vale pine]

both is like, a future discussion

because right now we doing good

and discussing problems if you perform well is always looked down on

[tribal blade]

the problems i'm more fixated on are the immediate ones

the biggest one for me is storm+backstab energy cost

[vale pine]

think backstab cost is fine

but storm i still don't think is good

i understand the idea and thought process behind it

[tribal blade]

yeah i would much rather have a bit more flow during downtime

it doesn't have to be crazy

[vale pine]

but with how sub is deisgned, it does not feel rewarding or good

[tribal blade]

i think that is where sub is not keeping up with sin in terms of aoe

because the downtime is so horrendously bad you lose the momentum you had during your cds

[vale pine]

the way i atm picture it

[tribal blade]

that's what i feel is cutting off sub from doing really high end dps

[vale pine]

is that 11.0.5 is the new baseline to work from

and from there try to see what needs improvements

and there is A LOT of things that could be updated

even tho, if they want to make rogue better

[tribal blade]

yeah after the new update i have hope for the future

i'm not dooming over sub anymore

[vale pine]

i rly think the main priority should be

to rework killing spree

[tribal blade]

haha yeah that spell is so bad

[vale pine]

trickster is so centered around killing spree

so making the ability actually good

gives outlaw a entire 2nd talent option which it currently ignores

[tribal blade]

i think they should keep the name, it sounds cool

but change how it fundamentally works

[vale pine]

yes, exactly

[tribal blade]

no loss of character control

for starters

[vale pine]

the camera shake is a big problem too

its super annoying

[tribal blade]

yeah it's very disorienting

[last ether]

It wasn't that bad back in the days, right? Like in Wrath. The camera.

Or is it just me being old now?

[vale pine]

think it was too

[vestal escarp]

Fok is 35 and i think storm got nerfed cause on aberage it gives more cps

[vale pine]

but the spell is just...

[scarlet heath]

I had a showerthought.. wouldn't making killing spree send a clone that does the attack for you solve a lot of problems? no camera shake, no jumping in frontals

or just make it be delayed attack that resolves on its own witbout the movement

something like SecTech

[vale pine]

possible but you run into the problem of making things too similar

outlaw has other problems currently too

they have too much uptime buffs

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/steve-buscemi-howdoyoudo-gif-8203746

[vale pine]

and they are 100% uptime with ramp time

so going off target is more punishing

on top of their damage pattern problematic, which is harder to solve

[scarlet heath]

the problem as I see it is that they have no burst, they have a pretty flat dmg profile

[vale pine]

like outlaw playes decently well, people who play outlaw like it

[scarlet heath]

and many bosses involve around burst windows

[tribal blade]

the thing is flat damage profile can be good

[scarlet heath]

but outlaw has none, he needs uptimes that gets canceled

[tribal blade]

like in M+ when outlaw was tuned high

[vale pine]

its just some design decisions don't work well in raid enviroments, and it punishes the player too much

[lilac stag]

Flat dmg is by design

[tribal blade]

it was insanely good with a flat damage profile

[scarlet heath]

yeah it just feels bad on many raid fights

[tribal blade]

because then outlaw just did damage no matter where you were in the dungeon

[vale pine]

flat damage profiles are great in m+

[tribal blade]

it was the most consistent dps by a mile

[lilac stag]

And its also good on many fights

[vale pine]

think the main concern for the damage profile rly is

[lilac stag]

you do realize assa is the anomaly being good at fucking everything.

[vale pine]

that the spec isn't good on end bosses

which typically have shields or adds where brust can help

[vale pine]

still heavily dependent on tuning

[lilac stag]

everything is dependent on tuning

[vale pine]

see season 3 DF

yes

[lilac stag]

The fning kit allows them to swap to just about everything

[vale pine]

i mean that was the design decision the dev team wanted

its on them if one spec stands out

to either reduce power somewhere

or also make the other specs stand out in a similar fashion

or fix it by tuning the spec worse to reudce the impact

[tribal blade]

it is true, you can change what you need with sin's talent tree by quite a bit, it's kinda crazy

[vale pine]

i don't think its crazy, it is how talent trees should be deisgned

[vestal escarp]

^

[vale pine]

but its the same topic i keep iterating over

the talent tree rework lead to a change in design direction

now the focus is to make everyone good at everything

[tribal blade]

haha very true!

[vale pine]

so the specs that got the most attention during DF

got the best baseline

and given that wow development speed up in TWW

the new focus is on iterating on the popular specs

so the ones that already got good trees get more of their bad talents replaced

[vestal escarp]

Like nobody expected the ttk rework

[vale pine]

while the ones that got the short end, wish for a bigger rework or hope that tuning will be in their favor

its just, odds are not in favor of that

its kind of a death cycle in both directions

[tribal blade]

resisting the urge to link a hunger games gif

[vale pine]

e.g. ret has one of the most well recived talent trees

but TWW had a lot of paladin/ret changes

just logically spoken

[static juniper]

tbh i could pick resto shaman spec talents on random and still heal a key or mythic boss competitively

[vale pine]

it would make sense to focus on other classes

[static juniper]

its soo good

[vale pine]

but focusing on other classes

means spending less time keeping paladin players happy

so if you have a hour of dev time

who would you put it on

the least played spec in the game

or the most played

with a diffrence of around 8x or more on players you reach

wow became more and more a game of

"who do i want to make happy"

[tribal blade]

i feel like the kid sitting at the back of the auditorium raising his hand

being drowned out by all the people in front of me

[vale pine]

but its fine

the baseline of subtelty works good

its good enough to keep us relevant

and the burst damage profile is a advantage over other classes with more flat ones

even if its not about popularity

it might be about what is precived to be the biggest problem area

i mentioned this the other day

[tribal blade]

the best feeling was being able to see light at the end of the tunnel after the anniversary rework

[vale pine]

11.0.5 it was seemingly subterfuge and reducing button count by making ER passive

but subterfuge is like...

[tribal blade]

it needs to be completely redesigned for sub

[vale pine]

still completely ass on sub, which was extremely weird

[scarlet heath]

tbh I kind of like where Sub is rn, anniversary fixed bunch of issues I had with Sub's design before

[vale pine]

if there is no bias in development

[scarlet heath]

what annoys me is that it's hard to get into groups as sub

[vale pine]

yes absolutely

[scarlet heath]

everyone just screams at you for not playing assa

[hazy breach]

Queue as assa

Then swap

[tribal blade]

i do that for the keys i want to play sub in, i just queue as sin

[vale pine]

yep sub is def. better on queen

[tribal blade]

and swap to sub

[vale pine]

11.0.5 and supercharger ended up a big qol and fun improvement

[last ether]

[hazy breach]

Wouldnt say def better. Assa does good on queen too

[scarlet heath]

that always carries a risk of some crybaby quitting after start tho

I wish this whole fotm mentality stopped

[vale pine]

fair, but its one of the few fights you can justify sub over it

[vale pine]

fotm is just a consequence of balancing and design decisions

[hazy breach]

Idk its only really rashanan and blood where assa is better

[scarlet heath]

I get that, if a spec is poopoo I wouldn't wanna bring those in my push keys either

[tribal blade]

fotm makes perfect sense when you consider how much easier it is to do a key with all fotm specs

[vale pine]

a player fotm chasing is on average quite a bit better than somone who stays on their main

[tribal blade]

it's lightyears easier

[scarlet heath]

but I dont feel that sub is that far behind assa in m+

[vale pine]

simply because tuning changes are not agressive enough usually

so even if you don't perform on the other class at 100% efficiency

the gain from switching is typically worth more than the efficiency loss

[hazy breach]

I havent had that happen at all

[vale pine]

and for m+ its even more

[scarlet heath]

yeah I totally get that and believe it's reasonable but if both specs are within a reasonable margin I feel like it's very petty, at that point player diff might do more than playing a spec that does slightly better

like unless that spec is just poopoo

[tribal blade]

it's actually been the opposite reaction i've seen of people saying "wtf sub is pumping now"

[vale pine]

mythic+ pugging is extremely time consuming and getting into keys on off meta is extemely annoying

[scarlet heath]

I guess I was unlucky in the people deparment

[tribal blade]

i've done a few seasons playing sub off meta, it's really difficult

[vale pine]

but yes, fotm is just a consequence of people wanting the highest chance to time their keys and do it in the fastest possible manner

also what is meta is rly diffrent depending on how much time was spend on balancing things out

you had seasons like DF s1

you could play a shitton of combos

[hazy breach]

The people that complain in chat and say something like "bruh why are you sub" tend to be fotm dks/enhances that end up doing 400k less overall than me as sub abyway

[vale pine]

and then seasons like s2 after avoker

you palyed absolutely only 6 specs

and everything else didn't matter

[tribal blade]

haha perfect

i actually had that exact reaction from a fdk in 14 DB

he didn't shit on me, but at the end of the key i had beat him in overall and it blew his mind

[vale pine]

tbh i don't think its sub that makes the diffrence there

but rather the palyer expertise and better execution

if you did 400k more on sub

you probably would be even higher on sin

[hazy breach]

Not that much

[vale pine]

(ofc depends on key)

[hazy breach]

Is the point

In cot or dawn

[tribal blade]

i feel like sub is better than sin in DB

[hazy breach]

Its fairly close

[tribal blade]

or at least it feels way better to me

[hazy breach]

Sin might do more overall because you can pad on the smallies

[tribal blade]

than sin

yeah it's mostly pad damage

or aoe damage in pulls that aren't really that dangerous tbh

[hazy breach]

But the boss dps is way better for timing that key

[vale pine]

people don't filter out pad damage

[tribal blade]

yeah exactly

[vale pine]

so overall is what matters

you will always be judged on it, reguardless of context

[tribal blade]

DB does feel like a dungeon where boss damage matters a lot

[hazy breach]

My favourite is the second boss where i typically see the damage being really close on details

And then you check the damage breakdown of you doing 80% to the boss and the others doing 50%

[tribal blade]

i never actually checked the difference, i imagine sin is just padding on the adds

[vestal escarp]

Well if you rupture the webbed guys sin can do a lot on that boss

[tribal blade]

i think last boss as well

feels infinitely better as sub

[scarlet heath]

kinda my point, if someone plays non-meta spec for a long time and knows how to, very good chance he will beat fotm meta andy reroller

sadly cant really put that in your join request

[tribal blade]

that's kind of been my M+ experience so far, play sin and feel great in aoe and shit in st

[keen dome]

Absoluely agreed.

[tribal blade]

and kind of the reverse for sub

[hazy breach]

Not dB, but nw last boss feels so infinitely easier as sub

[keen dome]

Both the first and second boss really beenfit from massive boss burn

[raw arrow]

Can someone please tell me the talent where I get full combo points outside of Shadow blades, I am getting crazy

[keen dome]

Premeditation?

[tribal blade]

i haven't done the hearth out swap specs yet, i was going to do it in +15 NW today but the tank died in the first pull

[raw arrow]

Ah they changed that, haven't played sub since DF S1 lol

But ty jesus

[scarlet heath]

could also be Shadowcraft during symbols I guess?

[keen dome]

Could be, yeah.

[hazy breach]

Sectech breaks shield, dance just onetaps the downstairs add fast enough that you even need to wait a bit to go up

(so you dont come up mid comet+shield)

[tribal blade]

dude the last boss is so, so bad as sin

[hazy breach]

Ye

[tribal blade]

like the worst possible M+ experience this season

[raw arrow]

So we have 2 ways to get full CP? After stealth + after symbols (but only with stored CP)

[tribal blade]

yeah i'm gonna swap upstairs the next time i do it

@hazy breach does garrison hearth work?

garrison hearth for the fast hearth, and then use NW port to get back

[hazy breach]

Just use nw port immediately no?

[tribal blade]

i'm mostly worried about screwing up the timing and getting combat locked

can you just run off the mobs right before they die

and start the cast?

[hazy breach]

Or vanish and start the cast

[scarlet heath]

yeah you get full with premed on your first stealth hit and can get full points after finisher if you have enough CPs from shadow technique stored (during symbols)

[tribal blade]

ahhh ok, that's possible for sure

i play sin with double vanish charge anyways

[hazy breach]

Idk i sometimes swap before even going up if i ended up using deathmark on boss right before it died

(dont hold a spear when you zone out)

[tribal blade]

mmm ok

does the group have to wait for you then?

because upstairs is a monster pull as 1st pull usually

[hazy breach]

Ig but we didnt do the monster pull if nobody had cds. Kinda depends on how the second boss timings with cds go

Ive only done 14s fwiw

[tribal blade]

i'll have to see when's best

[hazy breach]

Cuz what i found was that either:
A: deathmark+ascendance was ready (or had like <20) and we did big pull > swap
B: deathmark+ascendance had a lot left because we used it on the boss and we do a small pull until theyre ready, in which case i swapped right after boss

(ive done unironically like 15 tries on nw 14 before i timed it 🙃)

[vale pine]

dedication

[tribal blade]

haha that's normal for NW, it also took me quite a few tries

because with how that dungeon works, it just takes 1 mistake from someone

and everyone dies

and it's REALLY easy to die in NW

[hazy breach]

People not being ported up when they die downstairs

On last boss

[tribal blade]

the last boss is just horribly designed

[hazy breach]

Is my least favourite way to brick the key

[lilac stag]

Bugging out the encounter because I forget to drops tricks is my favorite.

[tribal blade]

lol this one is horrible

i have a cancel aura macro for tricks on my bars just in case now

[hazy breach]

He doesnt insta snap though, he walks a bit

[tribal blade]

if you cancel tricks quick enough he'll stop evading

and stay down

at least 1 time that happened for me

[hazy breach]

Ye you have like 5 or so seconds until he evades

[lilac stag]

on god I ran something besides db/mists. it was my city. Hunter invites a 3100 brm. Mother fucker apparently forgot what affixes were. Didn’t ToD until 5 minutes left in the key.

[tribal blade]

he starts like walking up the side of the wall

[hazy breach]

If I had tricks up i just kidney asap

[lilac stag]

pulling like it’s a 3200 group when we are carrying a shitty ret.

[hazy breach]

Then he wont move and everything is safe

[lilac stag]

ended up .5% short and bricked it.

tank blames everyone else

I hate keys

[tribal blade]

oh no, the classic being half a percent short on last boss

and no time to do trash after

being off count is on the tank

[lilac stag]

I told the hunter to invite the 2750 druid. “I don’t like their server”. fml

dude had a 12 timed

starting to question my desire to play in s2

[tribal blade]

wait did you mean 2100 brewmaster

[lilac stag]

Played like it

[tribal blade]

HAHA

fair enough

[lilac stag]

Didn’t check holy pali mana once

She’s screaming over discord

time to pull everything to first boss and ignore affix

all 4 of us assumed TOD. Shame on us.

back to just running 8 DBs

Maybe 4 idk

Maybe 1

[tribal blade]

yeah that is a really shitty thing tanks sometimes do

they do pulls that the people in the key are not prepared for

[lilac stag]

I get it if you’re running with your key group

[tribal blade]

like pulls that are several hundred points of IO of experience that group does not have

[lilac stag]

fuck off with that shit during a weekly vault

just a terrorist at that point

[tribal blade]

i lost a DB this week to a tank i know doing some pulls that you would expect to see at maybe 3300+ level

so we naturally wiped several times

[lilac stag]

db has so many pulls to. I don’t think I’ve run the same route twice

[tribal blade]

it starts becoming quite consistent

mostly depends on lust timer

[lilac stag]

it’s the grouping.

[tribal blade]

and where you want to put your lust on the trash after 1st boss

[lilac stag]

and what they’re comfortable with. At least in the 10-11 range

[tribal blade]

yeah you definitely don't need to do crazy pulls to time DB on 10-11

[lilac stag]

I’m just glad when they know how to land on the ship. My standards are low.

[tribal blade]

those ships are just criminal

[remote shuttle]

I stream my 10s/11s for vault and 12s for .io as sub, 18:00 to late evening like daily

[lilac stag]

swap to old flight mode. No issues.

[tribal blade]

yeah steady flight is way better in DB for sure

you have less burst speed

but you can hover

it's a good tradeoff

[lilac stag]

I think I’m running Assa for Ovi tonight. We missing a trash padder for dps.

[tribal blade]

damn you get to parse tonight then

[lilac stag]

rather play sub. Caustic lags the hell out of me at times.

Idk if it’s nameplate or something else

[tribal blade]

that fight is just super laggy in general when the adds come out

at least for me

[lilac stag]

I haven’t had an issue on sub with it

If it’s bad I’ll swap back to sub

[bright fable]

Oh Nice i gotta check it when i can

[tribal blade]

HM if it's actually a caustic issue i might try playing sub instead

[lilac stag]

20% vers assa is fine.

[tribal blade]

because the lag is unreal sometimes until at least half the adds are dead

ok sweet, that's really good to know

[lilac stag]

Try testing the ovi build on the dummies in dom

[tribal blade]

and the warr on my raid team was BEGGING me to play sub on ovi this week so he wouldn't get parried

[lilac stag]

I’ll lag as soon as I send DM every time.

[tribal blade]

i use the dummies a lot to practice sin, there's so much lag sometimes

even when it's not lagging i'll sometimes get intermittent lag outs randomly

[modest river]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[haughty mural]

are you still running RS ?

i can't get used to the bug

it seems

idk why

[lilac stag]

Drop rs

Love sub again

[haughty mural]

even in m+ ?

[lilac stag]

depending on key level yes

[haughty mural]

i guess so yea

[lilac stag]

Shit dies soo fast in 10-11 I just send cds

And rupture if anything left after the fact

That it would be useful on

[haughty mural]

maybe i'll drop a transmitter if i love sub again

(next reset)

[lilac stag]

vault luck

🍀

[haughty mural]

3rd mandate last week

it doesn't even drop when i do my weekly princess runs

can't even loose the roll like a real one

do you go imp sht instead of rs ?

[tribal blade]

the upside of the RS bug is when you get refunds that behave normally it feels AMAZING

that's like the trope of "the upside of being in pain all the time is when you're not in pain it's orgasmic"

[haughty mural]

based

but i'd rather cut off my leg then to experience the bug any longer

[tribal blade]

it's pretty bad

[haughty mural]

yes

[tribal blade]

it's so bad it had kush drop in here randomly with "rs bug fix when"

during S3

[haughty mural]

pretty sure it's as annoying for him

as it is for the most of us

[tribal blade]

it's probably more annoying for someone at his level

because they min max their rotations to an insane degree

and it sticks out more

[clever delta]

im giga bored so i start to "push" and this is overall of sieage of boralus 12 before 3rd boss 😄

insane people doing those keys

[haughty mural]

yea true

[clever delta]

and i think replicating shadow sux w/o DB or finality, would you take weaponmaster or smg else instead

[hazy breach]

All of those talents suck so

But wm and imp sht are completely useless on aoe

[vestal escarp]

Improved sht for placebo

[hazy breach]

RS is pretty good

[clever delta]

its like

and im trying to rupture

i mean i rupture more outside the cds but still

[hazy breach]

Ye so its like 4-5%

Whereas WM or sht is like 1% max

[clever delta]

i smell some sub rework comming soon

ish

[hazy breach]

Could use nado too if you want ig

[clever delta]

i play sub in those lower pull count keys

and assa elsewhere

[haughty mural]

maybe this and pretend imp sht is good

[clever delta]

i saw that repúlicating beat imp sht even in st

[haughty mural]

ye

but one drives you crazy when it bugs

[clever delta]

i still keep forgeting what does the bug does

i know it delay cp return somewhow

but dont know how exatly to plkay around

[vestal escarp]

Thats it

Delayed craft refund

[haughty mural]

you can't play around afaik

[vestal escarp]

You can predict

[clever delta]

yeah sometimes i press builder when i got cp same time back and im like wtf

[vestal escarp]

It was a talk last year

[hazy breach]

Dont spam if you are at 5 or more sht after finishing

[vestal escarp]

At 5sht

[clever delta]

5 sht stack you mena

[vestal escarp]

++

Hmhm

[clever delta]

yeah that sux

i dont really check my stacks closely

i just know it will refund when it glows

[latent finch]

i really sucked that key but im still way ahead of the warri 😄

[clever delta]

I mean you are 620 and he is 631

[latent finch]

yea... he was not the best player

[haughty mural]

i guess you can
but i'm too bad

washed up

[clever delta]

the new sub withnout dust is actually pretty cool

im only running into issue that i forget not to use dance before next cds

and than im one dance andy during cds

[haughty mural]

ya same

[hazy breach]

Missing a dance is way better than not having your second dance during flag atleast

[clever delta]

yeah it just muscle memory not there yet

[spark tusk]

Yeah I made a WA and keep forgetting to look at it

I think it's because A) I placed the number of expected charges on flag, I really should place them on their respective cds

like on dance and on symbols

and B) beacuse I don't reliably predict dance because I don't do anything to account for CDR

and it's hard to understand directly what it means

like is 0.9 charges at flag ok for dance if in reality it will be 1.4? 1.7? I don't know

how much it will actually be because of cdr

so then I over-use

[hazy breach]

~40 seconds left on second dance is enough

Whenever you press flag

[spark tusk]

Hrm, that's a good marker

I'll try to remember that

[hazy breach]

On aoe you can get away with some extra if you do some eviscerates after flag before dancing

Like if do flag > evis > storm > evis > cds instead of flag > evis > cds

Its probably slightly less if youre not playing a shaman tbf, but you pretty much always have a shaman right now

[vale pine]

shamans are our best friends

[clever delta]

yeah thats for sure

[haughty mural]

shaman exists

[terse spindle]

Why we are dont use SOD by pandemic?

its cos of charger?

[hazy breach]

We have charges of symbols now

So we dont need to use it asap

[terse spindle]

but is it mistake use it on pandemic on dif situations?

[hazy breach]

We can time it for when its the best

You shouldnt be focusing on the pandemic timer no

[terse spindle]

so better use it when 1st SOD go down

[hazy breach]

During your burst you use it when you have 10s left on sectech

So your eviscerate will reduce it down to 0 for the next finisher

[terse spindle]

aw oki thx

[hazy breach]

That should be in pandemic

But youre not really thinking about using it because of pandemic

[terse spindle]

understand

best way to use

and 1 more q when we have coup de grace and SD and sectech not on CD we usind SD+SoD and what better to do, use sectech with supercharger or coup?

[hazy breach]

Always use sectech with supercharger

[terse spindle]

tywm

[plush roost]

Im gonna relearn sub today in reclear, whats the main differences between now and dust sub, besides obviously not using dust

I scrolled up and saw some good info there

But like, i heard you don't use shadowblades right away, is it after first builder in shadow dance or after sec tec?

[vestal escarp]

In pins or directly in threads you can find useful stuff

[plush roost]

Since premed exists i get why, but is the 20% amp from sblades applied to sec tech

Oh i see the little more info tab

Missed it on my first browse through tyty

[haughty mural]

afaik blades dont work on sectec and the duration is shorter now

[chrome fern]

rofl 8 Cot, rat 592

[hazy breach]

Blades does not work on the clones from sectech no

[plush roost]

Ty that was my main question, the rest is pretty similar to how trickster played before

Just no more triple danves

I also see we're using tornado again in m+

[hazy breach]

Nah fuck that

[plush roost]

Oh m+ section on fuu's guide has it

Whats the alternative?

[idle aurora]

Real talk…..is our hit box range just redic low it feels like I lose range on mobs all the time

[spark tusk]

It happens

I don't haev a good solution

[plush roost]

For reference I'm currently aiming for +14s/15s to use sub on good spots like first boss of Mists and NW 3/4 boss

[hazy breach]

I mean you can use it if you want, i just dont recommend it

[haughty mural]

tfd

[idle aurora]

I’m standing right next to pack and can’t hit anything sometimes

[hazy breach]

It feels ass and wastes sht stacks often

[plush roost]

Got it got it

[spark tusk]

I really wish that sectec could be cast

without a target

or if out of range and just hit mobs around us

[plush roost]

Tfd looks fun glad its viable

[spark tusk]

in case mob inches out of range during burst

[hazy breach]

Can swap replicating to wm if you really hate the bug but i think its worth to keep replicating even if it munches cps sometimes

[plush roost]

Veiltouched over wm?

[spark tusk]

Is it worth it for my mental tho?

[hazy breach]

Cant get flag

[plush roost]

Interesting

Oh

Yeah

[hazy breach]

But yes veiltouched is also way better than WM

Wm does almost nothing on aoe

[plush roost]

Ye, I'm mostly using it for niche spots and then gonna port and swap sin so I figured WM pretty good boss dam

[leaden prairie]

missing acro

[plush roost]

But since flag is blocked

Doesn't matter

[gray zephyr]

Sup subs.
I have just got my transmitter and I am getting used to it.
I use lash+trinket macro and I have noticed that the CDs of lash and trinket get separated. Is it because of the time used to finish the task?

[spark tusk]

Zac sniping replies from out of nowhere

about acroo

zacro zacro

[leaden prairie]

if its relevant to acro

im always listening

[spark tusk]

https://tenor.com/view/qeliameow-cat-paw-cats-paw-dance-gif-3807241812430059413

[leaden prairie]

[hazy breach]

Its because of this weeks affix

[gray zephyr]

Ohhhhh

[hazy breach]

That reduces your cooldowns

It doesnt work on trinkets

[gray zephyr]

Thanks! So we get reduced cd but it's still worth waiting for trinket for bigger burst right?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[raw bluff]

quick question, don't see a lot of black powder being used even on bigger pulls, is it because we are trying to funnel or am I missing osmething?

[hazy breach]

Nimble flurry in the trickster tree

[raw bluff]

fair enough, thanks for the quick answer!

[dry belfry]

Is it worth to equip 4 different color of gem for the proc of meta gem? Or better stack poly masteries gem?

[spark tusk]

You can sim it, there's a checkbox in the gems section to force all 4 colors.

I can tell you the impact is very small

[lilac stag]

take the speed gem

[spark tusk]

but yeh I also use elusive for speed

and go for all 4 because I wanna move fast

[hazy breach]

Nah just keep vers+mastery gems

You can use one of the other (aka one vers+mastery instead of all mastery+vers)

[spark tusk]

I like that we use versatile onyx

when I was looking over which gems to spec deeper into first, I googled wowhead guides to see how many guides recommend each gem

And low and behold

hello fuu

[vale pine]

haha ^^

it seems like google picks up my images, which is funny

[strange chasm]

Oh interesting we aren't using symbols with pandemic timing anymore?

[vale pine]

still

but we center the rotation more raound secret technique now

because we have the dynamic

due to multiple charges

[spark tusk]

It's not that we aren't using it during pandemic

it's just that we aren't really thinking about pandemic anymore, we only cared with dust because not using it in pandemic meant the Cd was sitting unused if you waited until symbols faded

but now there's no penalty to waiting because of the charges

you still don't want to symbols early, though

but, there aren't many times when you'd be in a position to do so anyways, anymore

but like, you can cast it in pandemic now, it's fine

[lunar bluff]

so if you are in a situation in which your 2nd sec tec is up, but symbols not in pandemic range, youd just wait a few seconds on sec tec?

[spark tusk]

don't delay your sectec

[lunar bluff]

okay that was my next q, so youd just consume 2nd sec tec without super charger?

[spark tusk]

oh right supercharger

is tied to symbols

I was more talking outside your burst

inside burst you want that 2nd sectec to have supercharger

[lunar bluff]

yeah, ive been just sending the 2nd symbols with sec tec regardless of pandemic

i couldve clarified too

[spark tusk]

yeah

[shrewd monolith]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[spark tusk]

I just don't even think about it anymore

[lunar bluff]

same

i dont think ive thought about pandemic once yet

[hazy breach]

Symbols should be in pandemic range by that time anyway

[lunar bluff]

yeah i bet it is, i just dont even think about it

im look ooo big button up lets make it even bigger button with symbols!!

[pliant arrow]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue

[remote shuttle]

We lucky! still using ur amazing all in one wa for sub, great job bud 👍

[viscid ocean]

Wich one ?

[summer mica]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/304343434137960449/1283842520308256858/image.png

[solemn lance]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[fair stump]

is this "going back to assa" move?

[sharp ivy]

as someone who is switching between sin and sub for m+ and raid respectively, what are your thoughts on embellishments? dawn + ascen? do I keep my double elemental focus?

[tulip gorge]

if you don't have any shadow dance charges and they won't come back any time soon, is it correct to just send a naked symbols + sec tec?

[wind canopy]

Yes

As long as you've got your CDs covered with 2 dance and SoD charges, you're fine to send

[mighty citrus]

whats actually the reason that we delay blades in st?

[vale pine]

premediation

[mighty citrus]

but does sectec not benefit from blades?

[wind canopy]

Nope

[vale pine]

the clone attacks don't work on it

so most of it does not

[mighty citrus]

i see

thanks

so i need new macros no

[vale pine]

if you are lazy

you can just macro blades to secret

its not perfect tho

[mighty citrus]

cb sectech should be fine. in your guide i read sod and second trinket

[vale pine]

yes cb secret is fine

[thick temple]

new ring today fellas

[vale pine]

you can macro transmitter to flag

[mighty citrus]

is blades offcd? so i may do blades and ss?

[vale pine]

just try to activate it during dance

yes blades if off gcd

[mighty citrus]

i always want to follow my blades with ss right? so it might be worth?

[vale pine]

you ideally blades after secret

but again, can macro both if you rly want to

its not that much worse

[mighty citrus]

i dont want worse 😛 thanks

i try to learn new rotation now

[vale pine]

if you want to min/max

its slightly better to cold blood on your 2nd secret

instead of the first one

but this means even more keybinds ^^

[mighty citrus]

well ^^

now its finishing with 6 cp regardless of dance, if i read it correctly? no exception

[vale pine]

yes, always 6+

[mighty citrus]

so accurate timing for sd is always 2 during flag and 2 outside?

oh wait this might wont work

[vale pine]

yes, you have more stacks of flawless form during 2nd dance in flag

[mighty citrus]

is there stuff like trippledance and stuff a thing?

[open vortex]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

no tripple dance is not a thing anymore

[mighty citrus]

okidoki

[wild hornet]

wait when did it get removed

https://tenor.com/view/wtff-cat-confused-orange-gif-25858653

[hollow snow]

With the removal of dust I believe

[vale pine]

no, but you only dance 2 times during flagellation

[wild hornet]

ohh

so i dont just shit out every single cd i have at the opener

[vale pine]

you dance 2 times, then one time again with secret back up

but no, subtlety does not just shit out cd's asap