subtlety

[upper narwhal]

4x grapple Outlaw is now probably the most mobile spec

[vale pine]

nobody will complain that one spec got more mobility

its a nice change, but it does actively remove uniqueness

and this happened to multiple things

[strange chasm]

Giving sub only shadow dance was a huge W

for spec identity

[vale pine]

yes

but vanish is technically

just shadow dance

with subterfuge skilled

it is functional identical

https://tenor.com/view/why-not-both-why-not-take-both-gif-11478682

subtlety stands out becuase it has danse macabre, dark brew, 2 charges of shadow dance

cross the 2 charges of shadow dance, because you can have 2 charges of vanish

what shadow dance in the general tree did was overall a net positive for subtlety

because the spec got changed to have almost everything away from stealth and working with symbols/dance

it is why subtlety is after the dust removal the only rogue spec which has vanish as a more or less utility spell

or flip site

DF is the reason so much more stealth inetractions got added to outlaw/assassiantion

[lucid jackal]

Yeah exactly lol

[vale pine]

and now why sin/outlaw do benefit from re-stealths a lot more than sub

[lucid jackal]

Like I said it's kinda "This spec is overtuned, what OP utility can we leverage while playing them" because every spec usually has something

[fallow nimbus]

You mean tanks worst nightmare

[hazy breach]

Im 1000% sure people would say sub was OP in grim batol if it did good damage there

[scarlet heath]

me no chain pull?

[hazy breach]

Because speed shroud saves a lot of time there as theres a lot of running

[fallow nimbus]

Let's pull that 5% hp mob into the next group

[vale pine]

speed shroud is a fairly niche option

i think speed shroud is a healthier niche

[hazy breach]

Not because of the actual shroud, but the speed

[vale pine]

than scent of blood or iron wire

[pliant topaz]

bring back stunning secrets

[lucid jackal]

Next season when sub is OP, "Wow sub rogue is just so OP in these new dungeons with all the walking, the speed shroud is just required to push"

[vale pine]

because scent/iron wire are always useful, while speedshroud needs a lot more specific scenatios

indoor dungeons usually

[vale pine]

or maybe outlaw

you never know

[lucid jackal]

"Wow outlaw is so OP in these dungeons, float is just required to be tanky enough to push keys"

[vale pine]

outlaw still has outstanding defensives

[lucid jackal]

It's always something

[vale pine]

i also think thats fine as a niche

its not always strictly better

[lucid jackal]

It's just funny that sin has had iron wire since BFA

and this is like, the 2nd season its been considered "the best rogue spec"

[cinder axle]

is bubbling wax better then ironclaw?

[lucid jackal]

and both times its been good its been because of the fact it's overtuned

But now it's "Well iron wire is just required"

Totally ignoring EVERY OTHER SEASON Where rogue had iron wire, and it wasn't the best spec to play

[vale pine]

well

assassination had no iron wire

auto spread on multiple targets

before df

[lucid jackal]

Yeah and it was bad all in DF lol

[upper narwhal]

there are keys where Iron Wire isn't even played, Assa just does big damage

IW is the cherry on top

[vale pine]

just to pour some gas into the fire

iron wire durating was massively buffed to make it even better

[upper narwhal]

when was the 15% DR added?

[vale pine]

also scent of blood is as mentioned earlier free funnel

with no trade off

and funnel with trade offs was already considered so op

it needed immidiate removal

[vale pine]

8.0.1

[lucid jackal]

I mean idk It's just sin is a strong spec

It was strong and then got like 5 buffs in a row

Idk if removing funnel and all that needs to go lol

They just gotta nerf it a bit, if they even care to

Make caustic a bit worse

[vale pine]

yes, and you answered your question why it wasn't relevant before

[lucid jackal]

smthing like that

[vale pine]

because you don't consider a spec part of your toolkit

if it does not do good damage

given how assassination whiped the floor with everyone on beta already

we quickly got it into the part of the considered specs

and as such, people started to realize other parts that are benefitial/good about it

attention is what gets you nerfed or changed

it is why scent of blood is less likely to be just purged

like shuriken combo is

the aoe the spec deals is too high, so you probably won't reach similar absurdity on a boss fight

[lucid jackal]

scent of blood is nothing like combo lol

[pliant topaz]

true! its better

[lucid jackal]

I mean in the context of carnage existing it might be too good but combo was broken everywhere

[vale pine]

yes, you are right

thats what i am saying

you don't need to sacrafice aoe to do higher prio

the reason combo was op

was that you could keep stuff alife

[lucid jackal]

the reason combo was OP was because it literally meant you did 2x the damage of people if you could spam storm > Evis

[pliant topaz]

its 20% damage to your kit if u have 4 targets around vs 25 to 1 ability if u have 6 targets around

[vale pine]

because sub aoe was terrible

[pliant topaz]

idk

not hard to see the similrity

and how ones a lot better

[lucid jackal]

It's similar only in the literal sense

[pliant topaz]

the outcome is also the same

so if the inputs similar

outputs similar

like...

[vale pine]

its just not as obviouse

because modern fights are not designed with a lot of long living adds to funnel off

we probably won't see another zul

[lucid jackal]

Uh

Did we just forget broodtwister was a fight

[vale pine]

you don't have constant funnel on the fight

[pliant topaz]

eh, u have alot

[vale pine]

but sure, you see funnel damage here

[pliant topaz]

but broodtwister ads need to die

the way sub with combo worked u woulda done 0 damage to those ads

and u cant really havve that

[lucid jackal]

The spec doesn't have combo anymore lol so yeah Not surprised it loses funnel damage to sin/otl

[pliant topaz]

atleast in early prog

[lucid jackal]

It's not about leaving the adds up the entire fight

If combo existed, you would have played sub on that fight and done infinite damage most of the time

Esp with trickster

[pliant topaz]

i legit dont think u guys even know what funnel woulda done right now for sub

25% amp to 25% of your damage

is 5% damage

HOLY SHIT

HUGE

I GOT 5% FUNNEL

PLS NERF MAN

like combo woulda been considered weak as fuck with its 5% per target tuning

literally weaker than supercharger

by a lot

[wooden kernel]

Are the outlaw/sun that much better than sub to where it’s not viable in raid?

[pliant topaz]

no

all are fine in raid

discussions about tools specs have in different nichies and damage profiles

[lucid jackal]

sub is best spec on queen

Fine on the rest

[wooden kernel]

Ohhh I see, ty! @pliant topaz

[vale pine]

lets quick discuss how bad scent is

a baseline sim for single target for scent is 1.26M dps

if you add more targets and look at prio damage

[pliant topaz]

acent has drawbacks

clear drawbacks

like situations where u cant realistically maintain ruptures

[vale pine]

your prio damage on 10 targets is 2.2M dps

[pliant topaz]

but iits also extremly strong when u can

[vale pine]

so a 74% increase over the single target output

[cinder axle]

Hey do you know if Flawless form also buffs secret Technique?

[pliant topaz]

yes

[vale pine]

i think thats close enough to the "2x damage" statement guy made

[cinder axle]

so i want to hold coup for dance and symbole to get 5 stacks of form to use on Secret techniq if pissible?

[wooden kernel]

Scent harder to apply out of stealth ig, like if ur chain pulling etc is only drawback I can see. Sorta “wasted” cps to get those ruptures up while other classes can just go right off the rip?

[pliant topaz]

its not all scent

scent is fixed 20%

[vale pine]

sims: Single Target | 10 targets

[pliant topaz]

a lot of that is the extra cps/energy

[vale pine]

well yes

[pliant topaz]

cps matter for sin/outlaw

they dont matter for sub

[wooden kernel]

But the agi buff is nuts same w iron wire feels damn near mandatory for keys. And feels to troll playing the other specs idk

[pliant topaz]

because shadowcraft and blades automatically saturate your cps. your damage is tune around having max cps all the time during cds

[lucid jackal]

[pliant topaz]

so the extra cps fom aoe dont do anybthing

laugh guy

if u have ja comment say it

[vale pine]

well yes, its funnel in general

[pliant topaz]

if not, laugh bud

[lucid jackal]

I'm responding to the person talking about ironwire being manditory in key

Which is the entire thing that started this convo

[vale pine]

iron wire is a nice bonus

[pliant topaz]

my bad. that one i laugh with u then

[wooden kernel]

I didn’t read all the way back

Ik some people don’t run it

[lucid jackal]

ur good lol

It's just funny how the convo circled all the way back on itself

[pliant topaz]

yea

[wooden kernel]

I hate assa, and the stipulation against other specs trying to put keys

[vale pine]

basically, we discuss how good scent of blood/iron wire are on top of the very good tuning assassination saw this patch, which lead to the dominant position in raids and mythic+ where nobody dares to play the other specs.

[wooden kernel]

It’s kinda gross but is what it is lol

[lucid jackal]

I think all 3 specs are good in keys

It's just sin is a bit better especially on the high end

[vale pine]

and guy and me have a diffrence in opinions about how good funnel damage is on assassiantion

[lucid jackal]

I don't push keys so I'm not gonna pretend it matters what spec I play

Sub is fun and strong in keys for vault so Imma play it and have fun

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[wooden kernel]

Ahh gotcha, yea trying for 12+ pugging is like 45-1hr wait as outlaw lmao

[vale pine]

because subtlety had a talent called shuriken combo

which enabled funnel

but was completely ripped off the game

because of one encounter it could be exploited on

assassinations funnel is in power level very comparable

but has none of the trade offs shuriken combo has

[lucid jackal]

well combo had 0 tradeoffs

It was a passive, it had 0 opportunity cost

[vale pine]

bp vs. evi

[lucid jackal]

Scent is a passive, that requires targets to live long, and realistically speaking, is only playable when you have carnage

BP didn't exist when combo existed

BP was added in SL

[vale pine]

fair

but it would have this trade off in modern wow

the funnel was to make up for the lack of cleave/aoe

which is also a trade off

[pliant topaz]

it also woulda been weak in modern wow. idk man, its litearll 25% damage to 25% of your damage. htats like 6% funnel. maybe 10% dor DS. regardless it woulda been a meme talent

[vale pine]

exactly, having a changed enviroment is why its now so strong

[vale pine]

it was initially 10% per combo point not 5

but yes

to make matters worse, shuriken storm energy costs are too high to have a high finisher frequency

[lucid jackal]

Combo also just leads to stupid design where if the tuning is ever high enough it becomes "NOBODY DO ANY AOE DAMAGE"

Even with something like scent, Rupture does a lot of damage, stuff is dying, it has to die thats the point

Combo either does nothing and is just a damage talent, or it does stupid things like with M+ that one season, or with obviously zuul

[pliant topaz]

eh, rupture doesnt really kill things specially if they have more than like 10m health

[left ledge]

I think combo should just replace nado

And should buff bp

[pliant topaz]

thats what I said too

[left ledge]

If you want to avoid zul problem

[vale pine]

there is a simple way to avoid it

make the aoe of sub rly good

[left ledge]

But then it’ll be shit with trickster

[vale pine]

it has a high trade off

[left ledge]

BP is just such a shit button

[lucid jackal]

Good!

Trickster is based

[left ledge]

Always was and probably always will be unless you can helicopter spam it

[vale pine]

even spamming it

damage is too much focused around cooldowns

the only diffrence lower storm costs would make

is to have higher find weakness uptime on multiple targets

[left ledge]

Yeah idk

[vale pine]

the reason sin is allowed to do this high damage

[left ledge]

Maybe if they wanna be super careful with it

Just bake combo into nado

[vale pine]

is that st/aoe is seperated in cooldowns/design

so you can increase aoe without making st absurd

something you can't do on outlaw

[left ledge]

Honestly

Sin ST in m+ is kinda ass though

[vale pine]

yes

well depends

[left ledge]

That spec is basically aoe

[vale pine]

sin has like 8 talent builds

you can switch between

but having so good aoe

[lucid jackal]

The build ppl play does 0 ST

[vale pine]

nobody trades of st

[left ledge]

Yeah

I mean you can funnel bosses sure

But when you have to do pure ST

[vale pine]

you can pmuch play st

[left ledge]

Holy shit it’s ass

[vale pine]

and just select spatter

its like

2% st loss

[lucid jackal]

But nobody does that in keys

[vale pine]

thats nothing

[lucid jackal]

Ppl play "aoe build" with carnage, scent etc

and it tanks their ST

[left ledge]

That loses a lot of overall no?

[vale pine]

yes

[lucid jackal]

It does

[left ledge]

Yeah just isn’t worth

[lucid jackal]

Its nice for raid but for dungeons its bad

[left ledge]

Spec does minimum 4m dps just for spreading dots

[vale pine]

yes, the numbers are rly high

also you do "insane" st

[left ledge]

And then this new 12 sec garrote

[vale pine]

if you can keep targets alife

because the st trade off

is only there if you play with low targets

[left ledge]

Yeah just funnel everything

[vale pine]

it leads to the same situation sub had

where you try to pull stuff to bosses

to make funnel higher

just to re-iterate

[lucid jackal]

are ppl actually doing this tho lol

[left ledge]

I mean you can’t a lot of the times

[vale pine]

i think this is exactly what guy mentioned

indirectly

[left ledge]

So many bosses are locked in some way

[vale pine]

when he did say sub was played in keys for funnel

[lucid jackal]

Well it was in 1 season

Because the game in BFA was very different than the game rn

[vale pine]

its the same scenario but more difficult to do

because the aoe damage of sin is higher

[pliant topaz]

when possible yeah

like NW first boss

GB 2nd boss

on high enough keys its really nice and is a time saver since u do less packs

by doing them with bosses

[vale pine]

what is fine and not is always a decision of perception

sub aoe was worse than sins is rn

and people did say sub needed to be heavily nerfed during s1/2 df

because it does too much aoe

[lucid jackal]

I think most ppl who aren't delusional would say sin is too good and could probably get nerfed

[vale pine]

possible, but less likely

nerfs become less likely later in a season

and a new season typically comes with many factors which can indirectly nerf specs

e.g. bad tier sets

or bad trinket selections

or just raid/dungeon design which does not work well with the niches of the spec

[left ledge]

Chances we keep transmitter for next season?

[vale pine]

i might make a analysis for it

[left ledge]

We just need a good 1:30

[vale pine]

i actually wonder how likely high stat trinkets on 90 sec timers are for agi

for now, i don't want to focus on potential s2 problems

[left ledge]

Ye true

[vale pine]

because we are currently good

and i think discussing problems is something that people don't want if you are tuned well

is why certain specs (not nessecery rogue)

are mentioned as whiny

also i do think

outlaw is at least currently in a slightly worse position

11.0.7 also does not look super interessting

the onlyx annulet 2.0 seems fairly meh

[cinder axle]

can somone explain to me how high the dps increse is if i activly delay my coup de grace for like 5-10 sec with black powder to use it in my shadowdance window before secret technique? or is it better to just pump ur spells out and dont worry about it? xD

I know kinde deepdive but if I want to compete in high keys with dps i need to play better...

[alpine wraith]

you only hold coup if you are about to dance or with cds

and in st

in aoe you dont hold at all to get more cdr

[cinder axle]

I mean i get cdr with black powder too

[alpine wraith]

but you dont get progress to next coup proccing unseen

[cinder axle]

Ok true

I just checked the loggs of highes ranked sub rogue and he uses black powder with trickster and i thougt maybe its because of the mentioned question

[alpine wraith]

u can use bp on bigger pulls

[cinder axle]

y in keys like nectotic or arakare i get that but somtimes he got logs with BP on like 1% overall dps

and then i think he uses it to hold coup for dance window

[alpine wraith]

yea you hold as i said before

if you are about to dance or about to pop cds

but you do it for like 3 or 4 secs at most in aoe and in st it does not happen often and you only do it if next dance is with flag

[cinder axle]

Ok so i hold if its outside of cd windows but never in the cd window itself

because its better to just pump in the windows

if i can start with coupe = great but in cds just pump as much as u can

[alpine wraith]

yea

[cinder axle]

bp on 10+ targets right?

[tawny badge]

Ive read both guides and cant find an answer, if im at 6/7 CP do I Envenom or do I multilate

[hazy breach]

Finish at 5+

Unless you have darkest night, then you mutilate up to 7

[tawny badge]

other than the marked buff

k

[wind canopy]

Damn, sub gained envenom and mutilate?

[uneven scarab]

[cinder axle]

We pumpin now

[tawny badge]

lmao sorry

i just realized its the sub spec

[wild hornet]

if i get a sectec after the opener (with / without cb on cooldown) should I send it or wait for shadow dance

[alpine wraith]

there are some rules for sec tech we follow on most guides

you do skip some dances and even SoD

but sec tech generally gets used unless other cds come up soon

[void hound]

whats the Spell ID on shadow dance

[round latch]

236279

[void hound]

is the icon bugged? xd

[lucid lily]

It’s 185313

You can always find that here

[void hound]

ah its up there

[lucid lily]

Yeah, lots of good shit hidden in that links button

[wispy frigate]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[warm wagon]

''

[mighty delta]

what are some of the dungeons where we get like 12 target count for BP? im thinking NW first pull usually, but i cant think of too many others

[lilac stag]

Not really. Basically just blast with eviscerate and take down a prio

[jolly pasture]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[unreal breach]

Hi , i'm returning to the game , is sub viable or not really?

[uncut bloom]

Yes very viable

[unreal breach]

MM+ also? 😄

[vale pine]

it is

both m+ and raid

[unreal breach]

thanks ! 😄

[unreal breach]

DS or Tckr?

[vale pine]

trickster

[tame terrace]

its kinda funny how each spec is pretty much just playing the hero talents that match the base spec

[vale pine]

deathstalker works fine

its just not fun

[tame terrace]

arent there still issues with it for sub

i guess in general

bugwise

[alpine wraith]

yes some bugs are there still

[unreal breach]

if i'm not wrong , the Tckr spec is the one were you have to BP in ST?

[tame terrace]

to force hold coup for ur next dance

but idk if that changed

yea looks like its still the same according to wowhead guide

[grave abyss]

huh

[lucid jackal]

U don't do that anymore

[tame terrace]

sub - primarily trickster
sin - primarily deathstalker
outlaw - primarily fatebound

the hero talents are more closely aligned with those specs than the shared spec

[jaunty heath]

What are the minimum % required for critique and haste please ?

[lucid jackal]

There isn't

[jaunty heath]

I've compared my parses with best players

They burst higher

Because they crit. more

[wind canopy]

Wut

That's not how it works.

[vale pine]

yes, but bugs are just the norm in tww

[vale pine]

0%

[lucid jackal]

That's not how the spec works

[jaunty heath]

Why do they crit more then ?

[lucid jackal]

Because they have more crit

Probably

Could just be luck

[jaunty heath]

Yes so I need more crit

[lucid jackal]

No

[jaunty heath]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cnjrHMF45zCVzEoM4weDJk

Here is my sim

[lucid jackal]

Okay

[topaz raptor]

don't blame crit buddy

[topaz raptor]

it is quite unbecoming

[jaunty heath]

I try to see what to blame

Because it seems that I play rotation like them

When I compare with wow logs

[mint plank]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[mint plank]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[wind canopy]

How much crit are you expecting to be in some of the top logs? 10k?

Because I’m looking at them right for a fight like M Sikran, and the amount of crit they have…

[pastel rampart]

this guys darkest night always crits hes so lucky wtf

[hardy falcon]

So now that I've a correct rio, I've been getting removed from several group today because I play sub and not assa xd

And I'm only tagging in chill +10 keys for weekly vault

jesus

[lilac stag]

Welcome to mdi / meta specs

[hallow comet]

hey all, im using a symbols/shadow dance macro but they keep just geting out of sync

so sometimes ill pop it and it will only use either dance or symbols and not the other

how is a macro like this viable ?

[plush roost]

its not

[lilac stag]

We’re basically macroless in 11.0.5.

[hallow comet]

dang 😦

without macros i think it will fuck my brain too much to paly

play

the saving grace for me was being told i could macro things together

[edgy zenith]

you can have a macro for all CDs if you don't really care that much

SB, SoD, and dance

you can slam that before blasting off in opener

not going to lose you THAT much damage

but don't macro SoD and dance together, that's bad

[young path]

Man, we are so close to being phenomenal in keys, just need a little more aoe

I mean even a 10ish % buff to nimble would do it I bet

[hidden spade]

Would be nice if nimble wasnt target capped, like the way SP psychic link isnt

[thick temple]

Is there any qol addon or script that will not let me use SoD until there is < 3seconds of it currently active? Sometimes I accidentally fat finger my SoD key while it's already active and I waste the charge

[glossy turtle]

can you just do these macros? dance+symbols, flag+blades and then CB+ST

[wind canopy]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[lucid jackal]

LMFAO

10% to flurry is an insane buff

[dusk tusk]

i have couple questions
what we gonna do at 5cp? plain evis or bs/ss for overcapped full cp to use SecretTech
do we use Rupture refresh with Shadowdance or not?
thanks.

[lethal gale]

Only one I would do is CB+ST

[pliant topaz]

if youre in dance you can finish on 5 cps. a very minor minmax is to finish at 6+ but 5+ finis is fine.
outside of dance u finish on 6+
u dont refresh rupture in dance. refresh if you need before it.

[idle aurora]

is it stupid to craft a neck if i have the spark 😮

[edgy zenith]

wait it's better to finish at 6+?

or is that only for sectech global?

[dusk tusk]

ty. But the 1st rupture should be in dance right?

[cinder axle]

No you dont rupture in shadow dance

[pliant topaz]

its better to finish 6+ all the times. very tiny minmax

[pliant topaz]

no. your opener is going to be strike (fromt stealth) flag evis, vanish strike rupture

[edgy zenith]

what is this 5+ propaganda then?

[pliant topaz]

then u dance

[pliant topaz]

it used to be +5 until before this patch

+5 in dance, +6 outside. now its always +6

[edgy zenith]

huh, good to know I guess

[pliant topaz]

but again, its a small minmax, so +5 in dance is fine.

[cinder axle]

In dance i am at full combo points most of the time so dont stress too much about it

[young path]

Would it be though? I mean, every and I mean EVERY tier list ranks sub C tier at best…

[lucid jackal]

Its a tier list man

[pliant topaz]

to be fair these tier lists are pure meme

[lucid jackal]

Its not the real video game

[cinder axle]

Dont give a F about Tierlists

[young path]

U would think after the last, I don’t know, 4 seasons

A day in the light would be nice

[pliant topaz]

sub was great season 1 df

[cinder axle]

You can play every spec in the game in M+ till your at Keys on lvl 14-15 and above

[pliant topaz]

in fact it was meta

[young path]

I do! I like to get group invites to competitive keys

[pliant topaz]

sub was also great before 10.1.5

it was meta again

[lucid jackal]

Nobody uses these tierlists to invite to groups

[pliant topaz]

10.2 it wanst meta, but many here got title on it

[young path]

Which is where I’m kinda stuck…

[cinder axle]

I get that but just play ur own key and if u get higher ppl will invite you

[cinder axle]

strange then you shouldnt have that much of a problem 😮

I am stuck here too but i get some invites at least xD

[young path]

Fully agree, but the brick aspect of it is a thing…

U lower your key, attempt to pug… you get lower candidates as well

It’s a self licking ice cream cone

[young path]

Hah! If only

[pliant topaz]

sure, but that doesnt really have much to do with your spec

the key brick cycle is a part of the pugging not spec specific

you play Na im pretty sure, and i dont think ive seen more than 10 +15s posted since like week 3

[cinder axle]

You can always do the good old que as Assa and swap ur talents last sec xD

[pliant topaz]

so youre stuck pugging 13/14s im assuming

[young path]

Totally agree

Hence I’d like to be viewed as a higher tier spec to help with group finding

[pliant topaz]

and realistiaclly, even if you were sin, u wouldnt be getting into 14s because if i put my 14 in rn, ill get 315-3200 people applying

so again, not a spec thing

[young path]

LOL!! So troll, but I’d be lying if I said I haven’t done that

[pliant topaz]

you have to just make friernds, play with them. then ur spec doesnt matter

[wanton bronze]

the majority of players are in the same boat if that makes you feel any better

[pliant topaz]

^ if youre meta and apply for a key

[cinder axle]

I mean I know what ur on about, its hard that there are specs in the game like ret who presses 4 buttons and does more dps even if we play the rota perfect

[pliant topaz]

youre compared against 37 other people that are playing your spec

applying to the same key

[young path]

Yup, 💯 agree again

But like I said, I’m looking at this from a “sitting in LFG que” getting turned down by groups significantly lower io with all utility needed…

I may be wrong in my assumption that it’s about tier lists, but I don’t think I am

[pliant topaz]

its not a healthy/viable option specially in this season, where the gap from people who dont know what their characters buttons do, to the litearl rank 1 world keys is 4 key levels

[wanton bronze]

ive seen people in 10s that should be stuck in 4s

it is what it is

[pliant topaz]

agian, you could be litealrly the most meta spec a spec has ever been. then u aplpy, and everyone else applying is the same spec. so nothing changes. youre sitting there forever waiting with those other 100 people

[cinder axle]

You are not wrong. Your have to wait longer then assa or meta classes for sure. I said F tierlists because Sub isnt that bad of a spec they tell you it is

[young path]

I don’t think it’s healthy when certain specs bring vastly more damage (ie enhance)… etc

That’s all

[pliant topaz]

role based LGF just isnt viable on a game mode like m+

its not a hard concept

every key needs a tank

theres 10 tanks

100 dps

[young path]

I’d say true, but I bet u atleast get more of a consideration

[pliant topaz]

so 40% of dps will never be able to play the game

that ez

[paper iron]

From someone pushing for a while now, being an off spec dont get you invited in higher keys. But also being a super meta spec wont make you get invited to higher keys

when outlaw was meta and i was tagging the same key than others, ramfam in consideration, why would u take censi the 3k outlaw when ramfam the legendary outlaw streamer rank 1 3k3 tag your key for warmup?

I played a bit of SP late in DF, there was 200 sp in everyqueue and i was here pushing while some others were already having the key and tagging for fun / reroll keys / warmp etc

[cinder axle]

The hardest part on Rogue in generell is we dont bring anythin to the tabel regarding key utility like lust or cr, we got a shroud and some cripple poison xD

We are like a slightly better warrior regarding util

[paper iron]

yea rogue is missing stuff BUT rogue brings hella heck of dmg. Be glad we have assa rn pumping

we had way darker times

hello exodia 😔

[cinder axle]

y i am not complaining its just pointin out why its hard to get invites

if u got ret or shami who deals as much dmg as we do but got lust and cr why take rogue

[paper iron]

it s hard for everyone, i needed like 3 entire seasons to understand that

[paper iron]

strongly agree

gladly we have aoe blind now

[cinder axle]

the thing i like on sub ist our ST burst in keys. And in Keys like wake and mists we can kill the bosses super quick

[young path]

Hence my cry for a damage buff…

[cinder axle]

or give us better util

[young path]

I’d take that as an option too

[cinder axle]

tbh i dont like to play the class that is op in dmg and ur top dps all the time. doesnt feel rewarding to play for me personaly

[paper iron]

i havent play any sub in keys but some cursed sheningan like switching during NW so i cant really tell how s sub is i ve no exp this season, havent even push i did all my 12's early and dropped off

but

rogue is missing utilities if u ask me

[young path]

Smoke bomb, maybe a party wide vial, I dunno… anything

[paper iron]

shroud is cool, mindsoothe is 20s cd

[young path]

“Drinks on us” talent lol

[cinder axle]

They could give us a new poison that does somethin for the group or so

[paper iron]

shiv is cool, disenrage is not as big of a deal usually and others can bring it

no lust no cr, poisons are cool tho, but they re far from being a motw raidbuff

[cinder axle]

like if the party members hit the poisoned target they get heald for amount X or do more dmg or somethin

that would help i think^^

[paper iron]

i always asked for a crit dmg or a crit rate raidbuff, seems to fit rogue in some ways

but also, they did great adding some raidbuff to everyclass so we dont see super stacking anymore in raid. And in keys the reality is that the highest team will always bring what does more dmg and then work arround their utility, then, plebs aka us will copy what we see on frontpage of raiderio

and it s truer and truer the more the time goes by

[young path]

Man… complaining over… touché blizzard

[paper iron]

lemme check how looks the meta right now, i would bet it s probably fair rn

[young path]

That looks sick!

[paper iron]

ew, it s ok but i thought it would look better

it s not s2 DF bullshit

but it s not S1 Df as well, just in the middle

[young path]

That’s what I don’t get…

Like, look at the chart… do slight buffs to classes under-represented

Vast majority of dps brought for their overall damage output rather than utility (which is a very close second)

It’s really not a hard concept, I don’t get why blizzard can’t balance things

1.5-2% aura buffs week to week as they fine tune it

[paper iron]

they want some spec to be shinier sometimes, and also they dont want to balance things before HOF closed or before the end of mdi. Also awc. Also they most likely look more at raid stats than m+ stats

[young path]

I dunno, I’m probably over simplifying

[paper iron]

lot of things

i truely think they should add a different aura to m+, like pvp already has. So they would be able to balance between pvp / m+ / raid and not just pvp / pve

[young path]

I think that would solve quite a bit

[paper iron]

i think too, and i m sure it will be at some point

when i look at every SP balance patch i laugh xD

psychic link is balanced every fucking single patch

[young path]

An absolute SEA of white in the DF comps

[paper iron]

nerf then buff and it keep going

blade flurry is the same

[lucid jackal]

Well Blade flurry has also been redesigned a lot

[paper iron]

i mean, a spell that aoe /cleave from ST dmg rotation, which is now the norm every class does that, bf, nimble, caustic just to talk about rogue, is so hard to balance

yea there are lot of redesign on these , not only x% buff/nerfs

target capped at 2 back in the days, was even a 5mn CDs in classic / bc

[azure mauve]

how do you see in wclogs if you are wasting cps

theres a filter yuou can put right

[paper iron]

select yourself > ressources > combo points

[azure mauve]

ty

[paper iron]

i took a random pull wtf i wasted so much

[lucid jackal]

Cuz the spec just does

[wind canopy]

Did you have RS?

[paper iron]

wait it s my first raidnight as sub, what s rs

the new thingy thing

[wind canopy]

Replicating Shadows. The one that gives an additional rupture on a target and makes it do more damage

[paper iron]

i do

idk why i do but i do

that s queen prog so only p1 there

begining of p2

[wind canopy]

Yeah, bugged so there’s a delay on the CP return with shadowcraft

[paper iron]

fun

[wind canopy]

So partly why you might get some wasted CP there

[paper iron]

i gotta pay more attention to shadowcraft, i lost the habit

fyrakk is so far back

[lucid jackal]

I feel like it doesnt really matter that much

Just be more AFK between backstabs

[timid reef]

Why do we wanna maintain rupture as sub? What does it Give us, ”expect we get more dmg overall” but we dont get energy for it?

[hazy breach]

It does damage, thats why

It just does more damage than an eviscerate does outside of dance

[timid reef]

Aha, Alright. Just suffer hard with energy outside burst Window, normaly i main assa, where we get energy from rupture

[hazy breach]

Well your energy outside burst doesnt matter

Because youre not doing any damage anyway

[timid reef]

Well true

[short radish]

not this tier list, which is the only tier list that matters

[tribal blade]

when you go into cds rupture is amped by everything

so you burst harder, and your damage outside of cds is better too

[young path]

What am I even looking at?

[short radish]

an accurate tier list

[young path]

Of m+?

[short radish]

wow in general

[hazy breach]

Its alphabetical

[short radish]

i'm glad people still fall for it

best thing fuu ever made

who cares about his spreadsheets

[young path]

Wow, you sure got me

…

[short radish]

absolutely fooled

[young path]

Yessir

[short radish]

boy do you have pie on your face right now

[young path]

Totally

[short radish]

but yeah

tier lists are a meme

and are low quality content

that content creators create to milk views

[tribal blade]

THE PRINCESS IS DEAD

[short radish]

gzgzgzgz

now onto court where you'll be praying to be back on princess

did you get transmitter?

[spark tusk]

https://tenor.com/view/funny-animals-birds-crazy-hype-besty-gif-11649419

[tribal blade]

we had garbage loot

like 2 crossbows and bracers

[short radish]

F

i lost the roll to the DK that had it on heroic

while i had it on nm

[delicate cave]

just got my rogue geared tonight, does Coup de Grace have an animation? or am i buggin?

[short radish]

yeah

you are animation locked

gl try not tofuck up mechanics with it (you will)

[round latch]

ye didnt work for me either,its 185313,it was the legion one

[edgy zenith]

what is optimal stats for ovi'nax trinket?

a lot of specs like 20/10

is Sub just full 30 primary? or?

[spark tusk]

People say it has one but I can't really see it. My character just flails its arms about for a second but nothing else really happens

feels really flat imo

[azure mauve]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[pliant topaz]

@tepid trellis i got so bored today i played leauge

zed blasts

we're so back

now

bedge

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1031307574429106300/1290811426650456065/4x29-ezgif.com-webp-to-gif-converter.gif

[tribal blade]

ok no fucking wonder, i tried looking up top logs to see how sin rogues are doing insane damage on ovinax

and it's literally all the big aoe specs they have die

and do 0 damage

so getting a good parse on that boss is literally whether your raid team doesn't pad hard enough

[lucid jackal]

Correct

[edgy zenith]

this xephui WA is such a dopmine increase, holy moly

[short radish]

but if you remove add damage from logs, noone will do damage to adds and fuck up your raid

[native zodiac]

Dogshit boss for logs

[lucid jackal]

This is why i've stopped caring about parsing

It's just so silly

You are in such an advantage on any add fight being in a guild that doesn't do damage lol

[tribal blade]

both the fury warrs in my guild got 98s on ovinax today

so guess there's no parsing to be had haha

[vale pine]

there are two more tier lists that matter.
this one for hero talents

and very important, the class tier list

[vale pine]

nicuuu

[vale pine]

i always remember the asian regions selling parse runs, it becomes a bit absurd over time

[alpine wraith]

they still do

but that is also because you need good parses to boost there

[raven sluice]

is ther any target count we swap to black powder?

[alpine wraith]

around 12

[vale pine]

isn't that the same here?

[young path]

13 GB... 🙂

[alpine wraith]

the competition is fierce

[random hare]

i’d like to dps race them in m+

[proven plover]

Wtf all 3 rogue specs are so far at the bottom

While dk is at the top

Classic

[vale pine]

petition to rename the class!

[daring raptor]

What you thinking ?

[tepid trellis]

Aogue

[daring raptor]

Subouge

[scarlet heath]

Bogue

[daring raptor]

Dogue

[vale pine]

criminal

fraudster

stealing is an art

so artist

[random hare]

Ro is the best name solely due to the loss of acrobatic strikes we can no longer reach uge

-3 yards

[vale pine]

bandit probably not too bad

[haughty mural]

still in transmitter waiting room

[tough knot]

We should petition to change the name from rogue to bandit, this way we would be #1

Or crook

[sacred yarrow]

knowing blizz it would be something like Racketeer or Pilferer

[tough knot]

But then we would still be down on the tier list

[real pike]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/304343434137960449/1283842520308256858/image.png

[keen dome]

Adventurer. Because we go on adventuers to steal things.

[vale pine]

also good one

[glossy turtle]

How well does sub perform in m+?

[tepid trellis]

fine

[glossy turtle]

Gonna stick with assa was just curious. Is it just underperforming in aoe but blasting in st to make up for it?

[uncut bloom]

Blasts with both. Sin just does giga aoe

[glossy turtle]

Are you energy starved for aoe?

although still doing good dmg, being energy starved suuucks

[alpine wraith]

out of cds yes

[uncut bloom]

Yeah there’s downtime outside of dance/sod but I find it so much more fun and engaging over sin.

[glossy turtle]

Fair enough i would enjoy sin more i think, but sin st feel soo horrible

[vale pine]

you can talent into more single target

by trading off aoe

[plush roost]

Haha my fury warrior died on p2 and suddenly i was on pace to do 200k more than the number 1 rogue parse

Alas

We wipe at %6 to a missed kick

[vale pine]

[haughty mural]

wednessday is the day i might be able to start parsing myself

[tribal blade]

damn that would have been fat

[heady quartz]

new to rogues and sub in general, does one never use black powder in aoe ?

[wanton karma]

👆 12 was the response

[mint swift]

Rerolling from arms :p

[heady quartz]

well near 630, nothing to do

deciding between outlaw (procs galore) or sub

[mint swift]

True true

Why not Assa?

[heady quartz]

because its the mainsteam thing, i dont like mainstream 🤣

jokes aside, never really like ass gameplay as well with the dot spreading

[sly shore]

dot spreading is free now with IC

so not to worry about that too much

[mint swift]

Fair fair

[scarlet heath]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns.
The following macros are an exception:yaml /cast Cold Blood /cast Secret Technique

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[mint swift]

I mean you okay play I should have guessed

X)

[heady quartz]

Like sub looks kinda rad with secret tech

used to be just sigils >shadowstrike

[mint swift]

Yea

I went from sub to Assa

Just started liking Assa more

[heady quartz]

for me it was worse carpal tunnel (outlaw) or the meta (ass)

nothing to do on main outside of crest farm (ew), might as well

[glossy turtle]

Would sub be the best spec for raid? Some bosses like ovinax i assume arent that great on sub, depending on team

[delicate cave]

Is sub supposed to be this energy starved? Outside of CDs and the subsequent few seconds that follow it, I feel really energy starved. I’m doing good dps, it just feels ..bad? Am I supposed to be pooling energy between cds or just send abilities as soon as the energy is available?

Nvm, I just scrolled up and someone asked the same thing lol

[fierce minnow]

what do you need the energy for anyway?

you basically heal the boss outside of dance

for what its worth you can just look at the architecture and just auto attack, no one will notice.

[vale pine]

!design

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety is designed to be a spec with highs and lows. During your cooldowns you do immense burst and have plenty of buttons to spam but conversely outside of symbols and dance you do not do any damage whatsoever. This means that having some periods of "afk" downtime where you do not press a button because you're out of energy is the intended way the spec plays. As long as its not happening inside your cooldowns (flag/blades/dance/symbols) its not a problem at all, and especially nothing that having more haste would "fix".

[fierce minnow]

perfection

did anyone say dmg amp?

if only you could deal 25 million dmg with the press of ONE button

[delicate cave]

Any trinkets to look out for from the anniversary raid?

[violet timber]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[vale pine]

nope

[stone robin]

is it possible to use different weakauras for different specs?

[vale pine]

yes

[timid reef]

Overclocked Gear-a-Rang Launcher why is this top 1 on bloodmallet but no1 is using it? Or is it a bug?

[vale pine]

the profile used for the sims uses wrong talents

[gaunt finch]

Hey! Is the Queen Ring just kinda mid for us?

Just curious

[sly shore]

It's good

if you can get better statted 639 then can get better

[alpine wraith]

it is a bit better than a regular 639 but nothing crazt

unlikely we get it unless no one else needs it

[vale pine]

its rly good

[cedar rock]

why does mandate sim so high for sub

[gaunt finch]

Sorry for the questions but is elemental focusing lens better than ascension? I am seeing like a split between the two of them does it matter?

[alpine wraith]

both are kinda close

ascension is a bit better when more than 2 targets are around

best overall is duskthread with good uptime but tbh the diff is never big

[tribal blade]

they purposefully increased the energy cost of some abilities to make sub have more downtime outside of cds, i hate it but what can you do

[gaunt finch]

For sure I was just curious looking around I am really enjoying it not a lot of sub players it seems though

[alpine wraith]

yea we are specially cool

[tribal blade]

how much vers does duskthread actually give? never looked

sounds like it would be worth to craft for my M+ sub set at some point

[hazy breach]

750

So its effectively nothing, just like the other embellishments

[keen dome]

sad

[hazy breach]

Slightly higher than half of what a 525 blue silken lining gave

[keen dome]

I like Ascendance 'cos it just keeps on trucking for so long

[alpine wraith]

i like ascendance because it can give mastery

BIG D

[keen dome]

Getting everything to proc. "Hell yeah, blasting time" and then Ascendance rolls haste

[idle aurora]

On pure single target do we go death stalker?

[cedar rock]

doesanyone know the order of upgrading items again? i know its weapon>strong/bis trinks>chest,legs,head>jewelery>etc

but does that prio apply to off hand weap?

[coarse nexus]

offhand is basically just a stat stick

[alpine wraith]

weapon>ebellish>jewelry if you cange from bad stats to good stats>ilvl

[hazy breach]

Its about the same as trickster but it feels worse to play, so i wouldnt recommend it

[hazy breach]

No, offhand is almost useless

[tribal blade]

oh that is nothing, nevermind

[hazy breach]

Boggles my mind how they didnt fix embellishments before the game went live

But it is what it is

Felt like them being as strong as they were in amirdrassil (non-awakened) and not scaling with ilvl isnt intended, but guess it is

[vale pine]

on the flip site means they barely matter

[tidal python]

Do we have numbers on the void elf changes?

[lilac stag]

No. The racial isn’t working on the ptr

[idle aurora]

Fuu love your guide btw

Has helped me go from someone so confused I almost quit class to passable barely

It’s been open on my phone and computer and referenced non stop for two and a half weeks

[vale pine]

thanks, i want to improve it in the future when i have a bit more time on hand

[swift merlin]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift merlin]

Question regarding the spreadsheet sims vs BiS lists -- why are the items used different?

[hazy breach]

No idea which lists youre referring to, but if its not trinkets the differences are probably irrelevant

The only real "BiS" item that exists for sub is transmitter

Everything else has multiple items thats about as good

[swift merlin]

I guess like, why are BiS listed as Transmitter/Mad Queen's but the actual sim is Transmitter/Void Reaper's Contract

And the weapons are different also

[hazy breach]

Bis lists are a meme

[delicate cave]

Why is blood mallet saying LF is highest dps? That nuke can’t be worth that much dps

[hazy breach]

Bloodmallet is bugged for sub rn

Its simming without any talents

[swift merlin]

I mean I agree they're a meme but aren't they created by the same person(s) 😅

[lilac stag]

they likely didn’t get updated as .5 dropped

Cause no one gives a shit about them if they can actually get that gear.

sim your gear, run droptimizer. Smile and be happy.

[swift merlin]

Yea yea I know all that, was just a side q

It's important to still know what the best "in theory" may be in case you're deciding on who gets what in a guild raid setting

[hazy breach]

Egg, contract and mandate are all pretty similar

[swift merlin]

Even if it's "just" a +0.4%

[vale pine]

the important item is transmitter

the 2nd item is as eleem mentioned secondary, the delve trinket rital knive is a other good option

[lucid lily]

I can’t get rid of that thing to save my life. Not that I mind it, but nothing else I’ve gotten sims higher than it and I have a bunch of decent options

[lilac stag]

You each sim. Ez

[swift merlin]

Ok so you each sim only to find out it's a minor upgrade for both, now what

[lilac stag]

We give it to who will put it to better use. Loot council ain’t that difficult mate.

[swift merlin]

"better use" based on what?

[uneven scarab]

Based on how much value they gain surely

[vale pine]

people can always just sim for upgrades if it comes down to numbers

but items are more times than not close in value for people

[uneven scarab]

I auto passed on queen ring bc i knew it would be huge for our fdk

[vale pine]

going for "this person gets 0.1% more" is in my opinion not a good way to go about things

[uneven scarab]

Crit is like better than str for them

[vale pine]

queen ring is rly good for sub too

just not insane

[uneven scarab]

It didnt sim super well for me

[vale pine]

fair

[swift merlin]

I mean I agree. This is why I don't like the, "both sim it" arg

[uneven scarab]

Ill get it when i get it but its def huge for others that like crit

[vale pine]

there are a few items that differ

e.g. transmitter is absolutely a item i would give to my sub rogue in the guild over others

but thats rly the exception, most items don't fall into it

[lilac stag]

I can tell you who will maximize a trinket out of our raid group vs who won’t. Some players are just flat out better at the game and will be in for all of prog, vs giving it to the 3rd mage who struggle with mechanics.

[vale pine]

by doing what you mention scath

you basically start to funnel loot to only the people precived as better

[lilac stag]

nope

[vale pine]

and will widen the gap in output even more

[lilac stag]

We monitor who has what

It’s quite simple.

[uneven scarab]

Our guild does the same

tbh

[lilac stag]

Who puts in effort to upgrade

Who is coasting

[vale pine]

i am just saying

[swift merlin]

I mean that's fine and all but that's not even the scenario. I feel like you're straw manning a scenario nobody even brought up

[lilac stag]

Dieing every kill isn’t going to get saved by a trinket.

[lilac stag]

You literally asked how to decide

GTFO

[vale pine]

i saw and experienced bias and results of strategies of funneling few people

[swift merlin]

Ok yeah and I said basically two people who are performing equally and it's a minor upgrade to both, NOW WHAT

[vale pine]

e.g. our guild had a high rate of people

who got gear fed

[swift merlin]

And you're just like, "vibes and it's not that hard" and telling me to GTFO

[vale pine]

then they did noticable better damage than others who didn't get as much loot

and left for a better guild

because

"you all suck ass"

when in practice, they just had better gear

[lilac stag]

nope. Our retention is good. We actually have too many

[vale pine]

especially early on with tier set

can have gigantic swings

[lilac stag]

Mechanics matter more than just topping details

[keen dome]

We're all riding in the same car, after all.

So we're all doing the mechanics.

[lilac stag]

if only. Haha

[keen dome]

I'm working up phrases to annoy people in my heroic pugs who say only DPS matters. that's my latest one.

[lilac stag]

You want me to interrupt something? What?!!

Idc if worm about to go off. Need to pump

[vale pine]

i just think putting values on players has always lead to a bad enviroment

[keen dome]

But I think in high-end progression raiding, having some kind of council system that like, looks at more than just damage or attendance but the whole picture is sensible. But it's a real big balance acting

[paper iron]

learning back sub the 2 last days there is something i dont get i m not sure about. do we really dance + sod 3 times in the opener? Even if it means refreshing sod before it hits pandemic?

Just for the supercharged thing and extra cdr?

[keen dome]

balancing act even

[vale pine]

and then more you enforce that only the best or the ones that put in the most time outside of raid are ONLY worth your time

then worse the situation gets

[uneven scarab]

2 dance 2 sod in opener

[lilac stag]

we run 27 roster. We’re adults. Zero issues. We only lose people to real life events.

we get people in as often as possible and distribute as evenly as possible.

[vale pine]

i am sure your guild isn't then only prioritizing individuals

and giving out whats left to the rest

[lilac stag]

We prio the raid

[paper iron]

i mean like thisit s not as 3rd in a row like before, but each of these sod is right after a dance. And so the 3rd sod is way before pandemic

[vale pine]

i think a good gear distribution is fair, and gives everyone a chance of loot not only your top 3 performers

in the end its about clearing the content and getting everyone better is more benefitial

but thats my 2c, if your guild works well with only prioritizing the best players, i am happy it works out for it

[keen dome]

Loot drama is rarely fun or interesting, too. Def gonna vary group by group. Sometimes a council works. Sometimes you trust people to just know stuff and handle it themselves, etc.

[vale pine]

having a fair distribution also leads to less drama

[keen dome]

Yep

[wind canopy]

I mean, not everyone plays the spec correctly and they’ll still get #1 parses.

[keen dome]

Pug loot drama is always really funny though

[vale pine]

you can play perfect

and get a 50%tile

if your gear is shit

heroic also has kill times as a important factor

[lilac stag]

You’re putting numbers on top performers. I did not.

[vale pine]

i mean, every guild will have a hand full of people who stand out

its typically 1-5

i don't put a number, just making a point of disagreeing with a performance based loot distribution as a benefitial thing

[keen dome]

They should give me all the loot because I parse 100 on every fight (it's the self-healing parse, I'm standing in fire in a corner)

[vale pine]

because, and i repeat myself here. You just make the gaps higher, and reduce reason to bring others

[lilac stag]

and honestly the only items that have any discussion are trinkets or special items.

Tier each get 2 pieces Distributed, 1 from aotc/m+ and one from catalyst.

[vale pine]

it is polarizing

[keen dome]

Trinkets seem the biggest point of contentiont ypically, yeah

Or the super rare special drops

[vale pine]

the lucky thing is

a lot of loot is not from raid anymore so you are not as fucked if you don't get loot in raid

means the most likely items you want from raid are trinkets or special effect items

[keen dome]

Ye

[sly shore]

[wind canopy]

Free $3k gold right there

[sly shore]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/i3c2s3inQTF8wgJrD1zCCT

actually an upgrade over a 639 tier head

[keen dome]

[spark tusk]

I really wish I could go gold -> Blizzard Balance -> USD

[sly shore]

roughly equal really, but still

[keen dome]

finally, a full time job I'd enjoy

[spark tusk]

I don't actually wish for it because the impact of this to the economy becomes overall negative

[swift tinsel]

coudn't you do that with the old D3 RMAH

[spark tusk]

but I do wish for it

yes

[swift tinsel]

I vaguely remember selling gems and making actual money

[keen dome]

I have a buuddy who made a couple thousand in D3. Extremely funny

[wind canopy]

It’s early for a Monday, okay?

[spark tusk]

I know

[idle aurora]

I really want to farm that delve trinket I have all 619 gear and a veteran trinket and a crappy champ trinket

[gilded ferry]

was flurry fixed?

[uneven scarab]

It was only bugged on target dummies

It works fine

[vale pine]

only thing its buggy with is not benefiting from fazed

and target dummies

(only the ones in the new zones)

[bleak wind]

is there a bug with secret technique not hitting the small adds on ansurek or what is happening

in p3

[dry belfry]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[keen trellis]

Hello, does anyone know whether you can cloak Sticky Web at Ovinax without rooting your teammates? Or does it act like a regular dispel?

[hazy breach]

Its a regular dispel

If you precloak it will not be immuned either, it will just choose somebody else

[keen trellis]

Thanks!

[left ledge]

Are you using sectec on the boss

Because her hitbox is abysmally small

Flurry is from you whereas I believe sectec is from the target, so it’s pretty shit if she isn’t positioned close enough, at least from my experience

[bleak wind]

yea I have to target them a bit annoying

but it shouldn't be the boss hitbox

since it hits the 3 adds in the middle

[left ledge]

Those things have giant hitboxes

[bleak wind]

I think its probably something to do with them being on the little ledge or something

[left ledge]

Like fucking huge

[azure mauve]

no bug you have to move off of the boss

and actually target the adds

otherwise you''ll do z dam

to the adds

[bleak wind]

ye figured as much, just seems even when the boss is as close to them as you can it still doesn't hit

[tropic pier]

Does cloak work to immune Queen ansurak essences as you pick them up?

[mystic ether]

!trinket

What's up with the bloodmallet sub trinket chart on bloodmallet? Is it correct?

[still trellis]

the sub sim on bloodmallet doesnt have gear/talents on it

so ignore that

[lilac stag]

Use !fuu

[mystic ether]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[narrow gazelle]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[queen fog]

Hi sub’ section, what guide can I take most value of? Wowhead? Icy? Another?

Thanks!

[alpine wraith]

all are fine

[idle aurora]

I personally like wowheads that’s just personal opinion. As a brand new sub rogue it helped me a lot

I’m sure all are good though sub rogue community seems small helpful and tight

[mighty citrus]

wait, doesnt vanish reduce our cooldowns anymore? 😄

wasnt here for a while though

[hazy breach]

Correct

[mighty citrus]

so whats the use now? for cp reg on low cp?

[hazy breach]

Ye for premed

[mighty citrus]

nothing more? 😄

[hazy breach]

Nop

[mighty citrus]

okidoki

tyty

[short radish]

it's also a heal @mighty citrus

[spark tusk]

Sub rogues cool and good

[hazy breach]

Icy veins sub guide should be getting a decent overhaul soonish tm

[half comet]

ik sub is perceived as slighty better on ansurek than sin but if i have mythic sacbrood and mythic skardyns should I just play sin 🧍

and sub has hero transmitter hero mandate

[pliant topaz]

these fights at this point in the tier arent generally about oh sin does 1.5% more damage. its more like, what does sin do for your team? and generally the answer to that for ansurek is just it blasts boss damage But sub has a great profile to help blow up the tombs if you need help, or carry first platform etc so it has a unqiue thing it does

thats why people say play sub. u cna play whatever u want at this point though tbh

[short radish]

or you can be an assi rogue and play with sub timings because you refuse to swap sub 🙃

[pliant topaz]

sure

[tribal blade]

@pliant topaz can you tell people to stop inting every 15 i try

have yet to time a single 15 because somebody else screws up the entire key for everyone

[wind canopy]

I’ll do it

Lemme at them

[tribal blade]

IM TIRED

[hazy breach]

Ive timed 2 keys today