subtlety

[vale pine]

is that that this somone essentially re-created wow in a diffrent setting

very diffrent from what riot envisioned

[carmine portal]

Arcane is made by a french animation studio not associated with riot

[keen dome]

Yeah, I absolutely agree with that sentiment. I play on AD, and we're one of the most populated realms due to being the main EU RP server. And it's a fantastic metric for game health.

[vale pine]

they wanted this improved version, that gave people a reason to jump ship

[carmine portal]

Ah thats why I recognise your name lol

Im from AD too

[vale pine]

it is why the riot mmo is now on ice more or less

[carmine portal]

Hahah

[woeful barn]

Yes but it was done all in house is my point.

[vestal escarp]

Like, do you /wave all the folk you cross by when logging in?

[vale pine]

the game had incremental improvements in some systems, not in others

its easy to be negative

[keen dome]

Haha, nah. I don't actually RP. But it's a really good server for server 'community' if that makes sense.

Lotta people have reason to be online and engaging in the game outside of one of the end-game pillars.

[hollow crescent]

guys am i trolling using deathstalker for m+ cause trickster is obviously an improvement but i like deathstalkers vibe and gameplay better

[pliant ledge]

Its not about negativity, I appreciate the positive changes, but I will not sit here and applaud blizzard for the bare minimum

[carmine portal]

It's the modt social EU server for sure, Silvermoon is straight population but way more clique-y

[woeful barn]

Not the story sold to some production studio

[vale pine]

wow rp is also way smaller now because most rp players are not willing to spend 13€/month on it

especially if you can get great RP experiences for a one time fee elsewhere

like in gta

[keen dome]

I'm not so sure. Stormwind is busier than ever.

[carmine portal]

Yeah stormwind and stromgarde are heaving

Fellow ADers unite

[vale pine]

interessting

[keen dome]

During peak, you can legit have 200+ players in Stormwind. And note that AD does not have phasing active in capital cities, either!

[carmine portal]

Also the main reason RP sees size shrinks is actually due to players inability to move on from.characters they are RPed for 8+ years so they bore themselves out and blame the game

[vale pine]

i don't know

can't you just create a new char?

[keen dome]

Cross-realm guilds have been pretty bad for AD's raiding population but exceptionally good for it's RP population. People can now play their main, raid on their main, and RP on AD regardless of which group they raid with.

[woeful barn]

The game just has way more QoL and systems for players to interact with. Just better all around than ever for everyone. Perfect hell no and some of the shit they’ve added I’m not gonna praise them for either especially if it’s something that was either removed or implemented later for retention.

[carmine portal]

Yea of course but these people have RPed the same characters near every day for YEARS

100% of events attended and stories made

Its a weird attachment only actual RPers will understand

[woeful barn]

You don’t own your characters tho

[keen dome]

Ye. it's their identity at that point. RP is a pretty interesting enviroment.

[vale pine]

i think its a mixed bag

[woeful barn]

It’s in the tos

[vale pine]

some things got better noticable

[woeful barn]

We legit rent these accounts lol

[vale pine]

but others worse

[woeful barn]

We lease them

They are not ours

That’s the reality

[carmine portal]

Idk about you but i physically am the character i RP im just self inserting

[keen dome]

Pretty much the same as any digital product, but also not really relevant to RP?

[carmine portal]

(((Couldnt be further from the truth)))

[woeful barn]

And that’s wonderful for you seriously I’m glad you have that

But literally we don’t own any of it

[carmine portal]

Wdym im not actually Haunt, the undead rogue?!?!?!

[woeful barn]

lol

[keen dome]

I don't know what legal ownership has to do with it though.

Arguably we probably do own our RP character concepts because they're generic enough to be transplanted elsewhere. And you can't own generic concepts regardless of where they are born from.

[woeful barn]

Yes that’s true

[vale pine]

fun fact, patents can in certain countries

[keen dome]

Yeah, uh.. Games workshop own "Space Marine" or something silly right?

This area of law is complex and stupid and I hate it fwiw

[vale pine]

e.g. apple patented the way to turn over pages, which is the very intuitive way

and nintendo still has a patent on on screen controls

[carmine portal]

Well

[vale pine]

basically nintendo could from this patent ask for money for almost all existing mobile games distributed world wide

[keen dome]

Ah, yeah. Those. They're in specific circumstances though, iirc.

[woeful barn]

Careful bro don’t want that Nintendo letter in the mail

[vale pine]

they just don't because they are afraid to lose the patent

[carmine portal]

A patent just stops people selling your exact thing with their name on it

You can still sell the thing

[woeful barn]

I feel like they’d sue me for buying their games

[vale pine]

^ they used this patent to still get money from one of japans bigger studios

it was the only time they used it and the case was a clear win

companies traidionally would not fight over patents, also in fear of losing them

[keen dome]

Don't want to set a precendent about something either.

[vale pine]

basides patent fights being always dragged out for years so have a hefty financial cost

[keen dome]

Very volatile stack of cards.

[vale pine]

its a defense mechanism that has a lot of options for exploitation

also in the EU

you need to actually inovate to get a patent

[keen dome]

Yeee, that stuff is rad

[vale pine]

you couldn't just do things like

[keen dome]

I forget what it's called, but it's a really good concept to actually make patents useful and productive and not just a thing you sit on.

[vale pine]

apple patenting round corners

that would not fly

for games, the account ownership thing is interessting

because even tho you technically don't own the account, companies are not free to do whatever

e.g. why accounts rarely if ever get deleted

but just get either suspended indefinitely or for a certain period of time

there is also a kind of backslash towards ownership for games lately

because of how some more well known companies just removed access to even local copies of games out of nowhere

[keen dome]

Yeah - I mean it's just part and parcel of the modern online space. Ownership is a lot more complex and although we do not actually own, say, a game we buy on steam. We have the right to that license and all that entails so it becomes more complex than simply "You don't own it"

[vale pine]

but thats another bigger can of worms ^^

[wild hornet]

As some people say

If buying isnt ownership

Stealing isnt piracy

[tulip gorge]

is there any situation in m+ where I would use black powder instead of nimble flurry based on the number of targets?

[wild hornet]

My shitty guess would be at 10 or above

[keen dome]

Ownership is a funny concept because you look at how land ownership works in England and lmao. What is ownership.

[vale pine]

it is a interessting conversation

[wild hornet]

Ownership is very subjective and dependant on your whereabouts

[keen dome]

Absolutely

[wild hornet]

In the land of the free you dont own shit

[vale pine]

software as a servise is kind of a weird thing if you think about it

[keen dome]

It is, yeah.

[wild hornet]

In the most random place of the earth you have 100 percent ownership

[vale pine]

it is american culture leaking into global policies

[wild hornet]

Kinda just feels like watered down IaaS

[keen dome]

Consumer law within europe tends to be way more robust, at least. And here in England, if you purchase a license to a product (digital or not) you still have a pretty robust set of protections surrounding it.

[vale pine]

you can simplify it

[keen dome]

So it doesn't really matter about the core of ownership, but rather the protections given to the purchaser imo.

[vale pine]

the EU is consumer first

[keen dome]

Yeah

[vale pine]

the US is companies first

ofc please don't take this as the iron trueth

there are a lot more nouances to it

[wild hornet]

I mean its not far from it

[vale pine]

i am just saying, this is a very polarizing view point

[wild hornet]

Making you do your own taxes without any prior knowledge is the border for me

[keen dome]

Polarizing but accurate. But, as you say, there's a lot more to it than just that and it's hard distill it down to such a broad statement

But consumer protection laws own and are cool and my friend

[vale pine]

the benefit for consumers are global distribution

most companies won't want to miss out on the European or other markets

[keen dome]

If I recall, some modern legislation here actively discusses if a 'patch' renders a product inoperable and how you have valid grounds to seek a remedy. Super cool to see more modern concepts being brought into digital protection stuff.

[vale pine]

means some things get forced onto US companies

[wild hornet]

You made me remember the iphone 12 backlash

And the reason its changing the charging port

[vale pine]

e.g. why google, facebook and (i hope) apple allow you to delete your data

or why the new iphones have a usb c copatible port

[keen dome]

Yeees

Love that EU initiative to force standard charging cables

[carmine portal]

I worked at a pretty large scale production studio for MANY years and even they cracked all of their software, video or audio editing or otherwise

Very funny

[vale pine]

the EU is also why the US now starts to go against gigants like google

because they absolutely abuse their market position in a negative way

which is a other opinion looked on very diffrently depending on where you come from

[vale pine]

they don't need to anymore

most companies are not locked into a certain pipeline, while ableton and nuke are still in most pipelines in holywood, you see more and more move to resolve, which is more or less free

[carmine portal]

I'm talkin making movies and adverts, so basically the whole suite of Adobe at all levels

[vale pine]

many of the netflix shows are now done in resolve

[carmine portal]

The free version of resolve is not the same as the studio version

[vale pine]

and like

[carmine portal]

((Netflix is also a very poor thing to use as an example because of their blatant drop in production quality over the past 2-3 years))

[vale pine]

you get the studio version for free if you use any product of the company

also its a one time fee, which isn't that big

thats why i stated "more or less free"

[carmine portal]

One paid fee is two active users though and many colour grading suites are far more than 2 people

Either way-

Resolve good yes

But still, as someone IN the industry, almost everyone is pirating

[vale pine]

avid, ableton and nuke still seem to make a lot of money

so they def. sell

[carmine portal]

Yes of course, if they weren't making money they'd crack down on the pirating

[vale pine]

its all about pipeline

adobe is only still this popular because its great if you stay within their ecosystem

[wild hornet]

Id differ a bit

I dont think their ecosystem loyalty is as mandatory as apple's

I.e.

[vale pine]

e.g. for photoshop

there are many alternatives with similar featuresets, some are even free

[sly shore]

🎨

[vale pine]

but there is the psd format, and it is a adobe created standard

so its one of the most used file format for commissioned work

but given that, and that its not a open standard

you now rely on adobe to have the best compatibility

[carmine portal]

Sub rogue, 'ey guys?

[vale pine]

subtlety is currently good ^^

[carmine portal]

Getting on okay myself, had a rlly lucky heroic raid week this week so catapaulted from 580 to 610 in a few days

[vale pine]

nice

[wild hornet]

Ill try that aswell

Im gonna be a troll and play sub in mplus

I have no clue how to play assa

[carmine portal]

I got to 6/8 heroic with a pug and the raidlead kicked me bcus I won every roll at 92+

((he was a warr so we were rolling on the same tokens))

[tribal blade]

@tepid trellis damn did you hear about peanut the squirrel and fred the raccoon

sad

[carmine portal]

Best bit about that is a lot of Right-Wingers who are angry that the govt did that don't realize the guy uses those animals as thirst-trap bait for his gay porn

[cursive vapor]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Oxi

[vale pine]

i think its insane how much this topic distracts from other things going on

also don't think there is reason to bring politics into it

[carmine portal]

No politics about it really though, ppl should be discouraged from keeping wild animals as pets

[vale pine]

it was a big misatke on multiple ends, the person you can blame too is the one who posted the pet on social media

[carmine portal]

Yes I completely agree, no sympathy for him

[vale pine]

but its a extremely polarizing topic

because its tragic

[carmine portal]

It's tragic if you don't understand that wild animals will always be wild animals

[onyx skiff]

that's not true though is it? they rehabbed the squirrel and tried to release it, but that failed horribly because the rehabbing had domesticated it too much

there are many such examples

sometimes saving a wild animal puts it into a limbo where it's not a pet, but cannot be released

[carmine portal]

Sure but even animals that have been fully rehabbed end up attacking people

[carmine portal]

Which begs the question: why was he keeping it in the same way one would a pet?

[onyx skiff]

honestly because it's cute, I think a lot of rehabbers end up with a 'favourite' they treat more like a pet

[vale pine]

#off-topic <-- this way

[onyx skiff]

fair

only came to ask - is raidbots still not working for Sub for everyone else?

[vale pine]

if you have a custom apl

remove it

[onyx skiff]

I don't think I do, let me check

[vale pine]

raidbots should work well

[onyx skiff]

oh yeah that was it, no idea how or why I had a custom APL

[vale pine]

happy to help

[onyx skiff]

🫡

[short radish]

@tribal blade you reckon sub is still viable in CoT without windfury?

[gritty knot]

Imo even without windfury sub is op in CoT....did +13 yday as sub and I was fkn blasting...u got great boss dmg, 2nd boss just gets annihilated by u, after first boss u nearly have full CDs for every pack those 3 mobs u have to kill. And in the big pulls with spamming BP I even peaked at 10 Mio + burst without Aug or wf

[short radish]

yeah like

i just go into 1st boss

and do shit damage as assi

and im like... why

[gritty knot]

Ye I know that feeling...it just sucks. And meanwhile u go as sub an burst with 2,6 or more mio 😂 while everyone else isn't doing any DMG yet

[tribal blade]

yeah most likely still viable, but you for sure want to have a shammy

[short radish]

dont have shammy 🙃

[tribal blade]

i'm not entirely sure because i haven't ran w/o a shammy as sub in keys so far

[wild hornet]

Who needs shamans when u can have 2 more retris

[short radish]

fair

[tribal blade]

actually maybe once or twice

[short radish]

trueeeee i should just play my ret pal instead

[tribal blade]

dude i have watched people who are not good at the game skyrocket in IO playing ret recently

it's a good move

[short radish]

okay mate

you dont need to call me out like that

[tribal blade]

HAHA nahh i'm not saying you're bad

it's just that ret seems to be this spec that gives people a free ride

[short radish]

hahahaha i know

[tribal blade]

it's crazy

[short radish]

ret is just so mongo bongo

you cant fuck up the rotation

[tribal blade]

this guy i know who has never been close to getting title ever

on my friends list

[short radish]

like it's actually impossible

[tribal blade]

started playing ret and i think he has the same IO as me now

[short radish]

the only way you can possibly fuck it up

[wild hornet]

Sleep with one eye open

[tribal blade]

which isn't insane IO, but it's the highest ranking i've ever seen him at

[short radish]

is by somehow desyncing executions sentence to wake

[wild hornet]

It is possible

[short radish]

and thats basically impossible

[wild hornet]

I saw it first hand

[short radish]

?????????

how

you can press whatever abilty off cooldown

and do damage

[wild hornet]

Someone casting 10 generators

Then wake

[short radish]

[wild hornet]

Then a few more

[gritty knot]

It's completely mongo bongo and meanwhile with their 3 buttons and nothing to be aware of they cant press lay on hands, bubble or sac even when U call it 😂

[wild hornet]

Then es into a few storms

[short radish]

i believe all dps players that have a healing spec should be forced to play it

to acutally understand how useful they can be

[wild hornet]

I did and now the entirety of the holy paladin channel hates me

[short radish]

[wild hornet]

I mean hear me out

Strenght weapon on hpala doesnt sound this bad

[tribal blade]

ok i finally got a mog and appearance set up that makes me not hate being a dwarf

[keen dome]

Pretty good

[wild hornet]

Imagine playing anything other than human

[still trellis]

human warrior master race, am i right?

[keen dome]

etheral best race

[round latch]

[tribal blade]

using the mohawk to gain some extra height

kinda cheating

[round latch]

it speaks of good taste

the whole package

i dig

[queen shore]

any sub rogue streamer to suggest ?

[barren tree]

in m+ do i sectech on cd? even if only sod is up and dance not available?

[lilac stag]

Assa says hello

[tribal blade]

i actually have no way to compare ret and sin because the last time i tried playing pally was in 2005

[tribal blade]

with the same amount of sarcasm, thumbs up

[lilac stag]

idk why but instantly thought of her

[tribal blade]

it's eerie similar

the way they look

[lilac stag]

Hi yukio

[tribal blade]

hi wade!

[lilac stag]

Ret & Assa (current version) legit feel mindless as fuck. You know when you see someone that is really good at it, but it’s very difficult to differentiate good vs great. I’d say it’s easier to tell great on Ret because they’re supporting other 4 in keys and not just loldps

Mindless not necessarily a bad thing, especially with mechanics involved. Skill expression just takes a dump.

[lilac stag]

Generally speaking yes. You have to be aware if flag is up soon, does the pack need it vs opening with it on next pack (likely with dance). M+ has variables.

[tribal blade]

i feel that way with sin's ST rotation, but i feel like the aoe rotation has a decent amount going on

[vale pine]

diffrent people enjoy diffrent things

ret appeals to A LOT of people

a simple rotation and high damage output from it is a success for blizz

so successful that its tuned extremely favorable for a while now

[tribal blade]

i honestly find it very frustating that ret continues to be tuned high

with such simple gameplay

[vale pine]

in a game about numbers

having a dump easy spec

be one of the best performers

is positive as it gives a lot more people the option to perform well

but it also makes balancing difficult

[haughty mural]

• good utility for the group

[lilac stag]

You can ignore resources and mostly are fine even when pressing a wrong button

[vale pine]

because if you start integrating difficulty of execution in your balancing

you suddenly can't keep ret at the power level it is at

[tribal blade]

true, so long as you maintain all the necessary buffs

[vale pine]

but in order to satisfy the now probably biggest part of the community

[tribal blade]

and debuffs

[vale pine]

you need to keep it in this position

it is a problem hard to solve

[tribal blade]

the solution is tune sub higher 😉

[vale pine]

sub is atm tuned rly good

one of the best raid specs in game

still the absolutely least played spec in game

[tribal blade]

yeah it feels great atm

[rapid crystal]

total noob question but how do I use Tricks of the Trade in raid? Who do I give it to?

[vale pine]

main tank usually

[gritty knot]

I mean I kinda like it, looks great. But on the otherside the face and hair looks like the LGTBQ+ final endboss from Palm Springs, CA

[tribal blade]

you know i can't figure out if it's because people still hate sub or if people basically have no idea that sub is performing well now and the game play is much better

[vale pine]

yes

it is how the spec was and still is threaded by the dev team

[rapid crystal]

so it doesn't break something when the tanks have to taunt the boss away from each other?

[vale pine]

there is too much perception of subtlety being a bad pickup

and dev teams did play completely into that

so people now have 8-10 years

of experience that tells them to rather play other specs or classes

something rly hard to overcome

and this does not mean sub was bad in certain patches

but it chanegs so much that you have little consistency

[tribal blade]

it would take sub being OP to overcome that

[vale pine]

e.g. 10.0 and 10.1

[tribal blade]

once it's doing the most numbers then people will play it again

[vale pine]

subtlety was the best aoe spec on rogue, still not best aoe spec in game

10.2 or 11.0

suddenly its one of the worse

two target cleave was never good

so reguardless of how good the spec was

if the other specs ended up decently tuned

you needed to switch off it on fights with cleave

[pastel rampart]

@vale pine are there updated talents on wowhead? i read the thing and it says "trickster plays without shuriken tornado, and takes inevitability instead" but then the import has both tornado + inev so just wanted to make sure its correct >.>

(m+ btw)

[vale pine]

https://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/rogue/subtlety/trickster/DANEVVFRRRUVZggVDUAQOVUREQVEVURQWhUBQEFVVUCAQ

general mythic+

https://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/rogue/subtlety/trickster/DANEVVFRRRUVZggVDUAQOVUREQVEVRUQWhUBQEFVVUCAQ

the first dance variant

[pastel rampart]

so the text is just wrong then?

[vale pine]

without tornado

the 2nd link is without tornado

and with the first dance

[pastel rampart]

yeye, just the description on the guide page not matching is more what i was pointing out

[vale pine]

ill check on it later

[pastel rampart]

nws, thx fuu

have a wonderful day

[vestal escarp]

erm bro, where the edge of night at?

[wild hornet]

Does it make sense to pop vanish after sectec even if im still in shadow dance

Or after the first sdance charge ends

[lilac stag]

Outside of dance

[wild hornet]

Then im better off without watching those sub guides then

[tribal blade]

you're likely watching a guide that was made before the anniversary patch

[wild hornet]

What weakauras would be nice to have regarding cds or hero tree stuff (the TTS ones)

[tribal blade]

i don't like the way EoN looks 😦

[wild hornet]

Rest are pvp guides

Whilst im trying to see whats up w the hero stuff for pve

Instead of 10 cps (cheapshots per second)

[vestal escarp]

mandatory on a sylv mog

[lilac stag]

Talents have changed in 11.0.5. Priority of when to use vanish has changed. Read the wowhead guide.

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Oxi

[wild hornet]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WA's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border

[final wasp]

!mute @gritty knot This is not your personal server where you can be as edgy as you want. Feel free to take the time to consider whether or not this is the server for you.

[vestal escarp]

unforch

[lilac stag]

Hmm. Missed some fun apparently.

[alpine wraith]

we always miss the crazies

[ornate current]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

broke server rules. All that matters.

[final wasp]

What the fuck are you on about

!ban @astral ocean Seeya Ig

[alpine wraith]

now that is a name

[tribal blade]

damn what did i miss with this second one

[still trellis]

man am i missing out on all the weirdos

[alpine wraith]

seems like it

i missed both too

[still trellis]

and here i thought sitting in assa channel would make me see a few as assa is the fotm spec

[short radish]

????????????????

[still trellis]

guess somehow they still come to sub?

[short radish]

what did i miss

[lilac stag]

Likely same person. Brand new account second go.

[alpine wraith]

round 2

[lilac stag]

Slurs were missed.

[still trellis]

so nothing interesting

[final wasp]

Im here all day

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/captain-america-i-can-do-this-all-day-marvel-gif-14017033

[idle minnow]

Is sub still the best leveling spec with TW dungeons from a fresh lvl 1?

[lilac stag]

Outlaw probably

idk how fast stuff gets deleted though

[spark tusk]

fast

[lilac stag]

best approach is buy a boost. Leveling rogue is awful.

[spark tusk]

for dungeons I think outlaw yeah

for leveling dungeons that is

[leaden prairie]

yes

outlaw huge

[lilac stag]

how quickly can you swap to bosses for sub in keys now Zac?

[spark tusk]

sub takes a while to actual get meaningful stuff online especially for dungeons and even then shit just melts

[leaden prairie]

wdym by that

[lilac stag]

are you still spec swapping for bosses or no?

I was curious how quickly it actually goes

[leaden prairie]

ye but i only do it for 2 specific bosses

also i havent played in like 2 weeks really

mist i just do the whole first part as sub

[lilac stag]

idk anyone else doing it and hasn’t seen you.

[leaden prairie]

swap during rp after first boss

in nw i swap before the 2 adds spawns on top

[lilac stag]

Hearth and portal?

[leaden prairie]

i lose a lot on this one tho

[lilac stag]

Or?

[leaden prairie]

portal

ye

[lilac stag]

if it’s down?

[leaden prairie]

i never use it

If it's down key is deplete gg

[lilac stag]

So if you brick the 15 mists you just move on to something else

[leaden prairie]

I think mist you can get away with playing sub the whole key anyway

It's a good sub key I feel like

[lilac stag]

it feels more than fine

[leaden prairie]

And sub is probably better than outlaw so

You can hear stone but it's slower

Cause you have to fly a bit

[lilac stag]

GB speedy shroud was nice. Idk about the pulls through.

[leaden prairie]

If you setup your stone close

[lilac stag]

I’m just happy to fill vault without wanting to noose myself

pugging sooooo nightmare fuel

[keen dome]

I actually got an invite to a random 10 and nobody got weird about me being Sub. A good time.

[lilac stag]

and most of my key friends said fuck it lol

I think my ilvl carries my 10 invites at the moment.

[keen dome]

I'm not really struggling to get into them with 2.3k IO and 625, but I imagine being below 620 is a nightmare for it.

[lilac stag]

630 at 2.4 I can usually get in unless it’s a 2.6 key wanting to push

[keen dome]

Yeah

[lilac stag]

I think I hit 632 after reset

[keen dome]

I typically only apply to groups with an .io of +- 200 of mine.

[lilac stag]

Ye

[keen dome]

Being in a group where everyone is 2.9k is spooky

[lilac stag]

We did one guild key. Fdk havoc and me as sub. The three of us basically had to start rotating cds on each pack. Was funny

[keen dome]

Hah

[lilac stag]

didn’t help prot pali is cracked

[remote shuttle]

629 and 2750, was ez to join 11s... Now its a pain for 12s... Full Sunday afternoon in queue was picked for 8 boralus 12 (all gone bad) and finally on evening timed my first 12 (dawn)

[keen dome]

Nice job timing it.

[remote shuttle]

Wish that dawn 12 will help for other 12s...

Ty bud

[lilac stag]

12s I think you start hitting meta cucking until you show you’ve done them.

[keen dome]

I imagine as soon as you start hitting 12's and 13's it's just gonna take massively more time as it's a super small handful in general

[lilac stag]

In guild we have 1 tank that runs keys. 3 healers (1 only does 12+ now) and everyone is mostly west coast. Lots of pugging unfortunately. Weird adult schedule overlaps.

[plush roost]

For context, you put up a +12 key and its 30 dps applying

So sub will be picked over unfortunately

Even sin does

Which is a good spec

[lilac stag]

yeah I applaud the couple in here that make it work.

I don’t have the patience for it

[plush roost]

Sub could be good, but sin is OP

So why take it :/

[remote shuttle]

Ye... I put a note to check on wlogs cuz it says im spec rank #7 on m+ dps on subs

But think they prefer blue % assas mostly 🤣😭

[plush roost]

Iron wire is a hell of a drug m8

[lilac stag]

The lack of being productive between sitting in lfg and number of bricks just isn’t enjoyable use of time these days.

[plush roost]

Whats sub overalls looking like i. M+ rn?

[lilac stag]

Barely running keys. Lol

just like our mythic raid parses

[remote shuttle]

Personally around 1,4 to 1,8 in m+ (good runs)

Details no logs

[plush roost]

Yeah thats a problem in itself with sub, why take a rank 7 sub rogue in m+ when you can take a sin rogue and get comparable or better damage AND iron wire utility

Truly cursed situation for m+

[lilac stag]

On a smooth key. 1.4-1.9. Bad key higher. What we lack in details numbers is made up on melting bosses.

but people just want details

[plush roost]

Yeep

[hazy breach]

Sub also has speed shroud and is significantly more tanky than assa

[lilac stag]

idk how ironwire is in its current form

[plush roost]

Sin boss damage is pretty ass

[hazy breach]

And unironically sub doesnt do much less damage than assa

[lilac stag]

Assa boss dmg is awful

[plush roost]

Its like playing caster packs without having to kick

[hazy breach]

People are definitely sleeping on sub

[lilac stag]

but a boomie, ele and assa in a key and the boss never dies

[plush roost]

I mean eh, its not awful, swap ele for enh

Fdk sin boomkin was pretty good earlier

[keen dome]

My biggest reason why I went into TWW going "I'm gonna chase the 0.1% title!" to now being "I'll do one 10 if i can be bothered" haha

Just not worth the time and energy

[lilac stag]

I find most people rather play ele

[plush roost]

Nahh not at high keys

Enhancement is the nuts

[lilac stag]

Sure but talking your 10-11 area

And stuff still has to die

Idk how enhance still where it be.

god bless

[hazy breach]

I dont think sub is better than assa (outside of possibly CoT) but if assa gets one more nerf it probably is

[lilac stag]

I think NW it’s better

[plush roost]

Arakara is pretty good for sub

Imo

[lilac stag]

but idk maybe wire too good at 14+

[plush roost]

Idk sin on necrotic wake is also nuts

[lilac stag]

dawn is super fun as sub

[hazy breach]

NW is fine for assa since you can get scent value on the bosses

[warm aspen]

ig they're not gonna buff us anymore huh

lmao

[hazy breach]

So sub boss damage is only like 10-15% better

instead of like 30-40%

[plush roost]

^

[hazy breach]

Sub is good

[plush roost]

And also infinite energy with snapshotting ruptures

Like i timed a 12 the other day with 2.1m overall

[hazy breach]

Its not worth it to rupture things that are gonna die in like 1 sec

for the energy

[plush roost]

Its just not fair lol

[lilac stag]

I’m just glad the spec is enjoyable for the most part and I can get my vault done.

my standards are low

[remote shuttle]

Ye honestly im usually last dying (except tank)

They should consider this too for high m+ (wishing...)

[plush roost]

Well snapshotting i use loosely, more like tagging something that dies in 6ish seconds

Like blightbone worms, throw a rupture or 2 out, get scent +, mega energy regain

[lilac stag]

The start of the season was brutal for keys and the spec. Completly derailed any excitement for a lot.

[keen dome]

Yep, 100%.

But now we're BACK and it's pretty good.

[sly shore]

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[lilac stag]

This is why I (foolishly) wish they would devote more resources to classes and specs. People will enjoy mid content way more if their character is actually fun.

[keen dome]

Absolutely, yeah.

I think it goes hand-in-hand with the gearing issues but we've talked it to death in here.

[lilac stag]

it’s also why I get so angry when it feels like we’re left for scraps

trying to not worry too much about s2, but I’m low key worried it’s gonna be a bumpy start for sub

for now we blast Sectech

[haughty mural]

im concerned for the trinket situation

i hope they'll have us in mind

[keen dome]

Ye, same. I still don't have transmitter lmao

I'm curious about the S2 tier bonus

[haughty mural]

me neither buddy

[lilac stag]

Trinket + Tier is gonna be the nail bitting.

https://tenor.com/view/rosé-apt-bruno-mars-apt-rosé-bruno-mars-apt-blackpink-rosé-gif-1186381507719730394

[keen dome]

Curious if the initial thought of S2's tier set being "okay time to buff lesser-played hero trees via a set bonus" is gonna pan out

[plush roost]

Oh man i hope that isn't what they do. Imagine having to play fatebound sin and trickster outlaw xddd

Sub is blessed with 2 good trees

[hazy breach]

[plush roost]

I like DS playstyle, and I like the cleave of Trickster (and anti parry)

What's wrong with the 2 hero trees for sub? Besides being a bit boring

[hazy breach]

I feel like DS is absolutely abhorrent. Casting eviscerates on aoe feels really bad, sectech barely fitting inside your cd windows feels bad. Casting another strike at 6 cp in dance for darkest night feels bad

[keen dome]

Set bonus: You get both trees at once.

[hazy breach]

Its just riddled with thing that feels really bad

[warm aspen]

holy shit i hope they dont do that to us

[hazy breach]

Oh and storm on singletarget feels bad too

[warm aspen]

yeah like pokemon guy said DS feels like some vanilla wow shit

hur dur dur ur not at 7 cp so the core mechanic of ur hero talent doesnt work

suck my dick

[plush roost]

Idk I've always had bad takes LOL

[hazy breach]

Idm the darkest night 7cp thing that much, thats minor compared to the others

[warm aspen]

it's so tilting to land on 6 cp with darknest night up man

and then yeah evisc in aoe kekw

[plush roost]

I wonder if deeper stratagem wasn't as good, it would make DS feel better

Like a world where we're back to 5 cp

Wont happen

But yknow

Theyre "optional" talents

[warm aspen]

i feel like darkest night being more about the damage than sustaining the mark is a huge issue

but then the very mechanic of marking is just fucking ass too

[lilac stag]

We have 1 decent tree.

DS is awful

https://tenor.com/view/this-is-bad-this-is-the-worst-the-office-michael-scott-gif-15921864

[lilac stag]

10 pt sectech, vs 5.

SuperC and trickster works nicely. dS shows all the issues with sub cdr and cds

[spark tusk]

10 point sectec should have a special animation

(or any animation, putting a coin in the sectec animation jar)

[keen dome]

haha

[hazy breach]

10 point sectec should have a special animation

[spark tusk]

put a coin in the jar

[hazy breach]

https://tenor.com/view/coin-toss-coin-toss-gif-5017733

[wind canopy]

Just put the princess dash animation on sectec

[umbral apex]

Bring back death from above

[remote shuttle]

+1 coin

[supple verge]

how about just a tooltip stating that coup de grace charges u to the target lmfao

i discovered that last night on the 1st boss of stonevault when i ate a pillar

[lilac stag]

Purple Fireworks are your SecTech Animation.

[unkempt trench]

better to get myth track legs or shoulders (with avoidance) from vault first?

[real belfry]

is made queens mandate worth it with transmitter? Does the double on-use cause problems?

[lilac stag]

Buy shoulders

[remote shuttle]

I'd all-in shoulder with avoidance

If myth

[lilac stag]

Boe cheap

Just grab those. Take legs.

[remote shuttle]

Cant afford myth boe, not even thought on that bro 🤣

[lethal gale]

3 BiS items for assa in vault including a 639 surekis...game must be trying to tell me something lol

[lilac stag]

Assuming servers came back up early

[lethal gale]

yeppp

[lilac stag]

Thought they were doing 2 hours

Quick. Retest all sub bugs

[pliant topaz]

banger. 4th time got sikran neck in vault. still no transmitters.

[vale pine]

you will get one soon™️

[lilac stag]

can I has neck?

[keen dome]

My nightmare tomorrow is opening the vault to a good Myth pick, a heroic ring, a heroic transmitter. All at the same time..

[pliant topaz]

prob not.

[hazy breach]

Im gonna take a socket, so i cant really be dissapointed

[pliant topaz]

we arent reclearing

so its joever till queen dies

it waas last week pretty sure

[vale pine]

oh yikes

[vale pine]

same

[hazy breach]

I unironically dont need anything for sub 💀

[pliant topaz]

im stuck with normal transmitter aaaaa

[pliant topaz]

i hate u >:C

giff me transmitter and silken neck

[vale pine]

heroic for me

[vale pine]

congrats, i guess

[pliant topaz]

probably gonna take neck for sin and use it to upgrade my eroic silken neck

[lilac stag]

If you’re extending can zoom through heroic for transmitter

No ideal

[pliant topaz]

it has dropped 1 single time and we've cleared it every week

and it went to our fury cuz she didnt have it and i had normal

[lilac stag]

I’m talking for vault

but yeah we have only seen it once

[spark tusk]

I'm now done with hero track sub

anything else will be a bonus for me

[fair anchor]

Exactly the same and that war has not logged back in and is dropping until s2

[spark tusk]

just got queen ring hero track

blessed vault

[lilac stag]

gz

[pliant topaz]

me big jelly

[strange chasm]

Same here no reclear until queen dies

Haven't decided to play sub or sin on queen yet

I hate being gnome

[pliant topaz]

pretty sure u dont have to be gnome anymore

casual killed it as dwarf

[strange chasm]

Probably not but guild paid for it since it just removes the mechanic

Did you not swap?

[lucid jackal]

[lucid jackal]

P sure u dont need anything anymore

Vanish > cloak > Kill > vanish

[strange chasm]

So did I just swap to gnome for no reason

[lucid jackal]

Mhmm!

[strange chasm]

Or does it actually help during prog to be gnome

[lucid jackal]

I mean it makes it easier, but you can do it without it afaik

[pliant topaz]

be careful with that one. youre gonna get the 11..0.7 ring to relpace it maybe if the other rings crafted etc

[lucid jackal]

Oh so then my vault is just totally shit then

great

[pliant topaz]

not really

[strange chasm]

Rip there goes my dwarf racial for keys

[pliant topaz]

depends on what u have

on the other ring/ embels

[lucid jackal]

I have 6/6 helm, gloves

Trinket is bad

[tulip token]

I think you should take that crystal and give to me

[lucid jackal]

And then its 2 rings

neither of which will get used after 11.0.7

[tulip token]

When is 11.0.7

[pliant topaz]

yeah doesnt matter really then! sockets are dead anyways

[lucid jackal]

My vaults have been so bad this tier

Kinda cringe man

I guess I just take socket for this

boooooooo

[strange chasm]

Wait you guys didn't get this

[pliant topaz]

same. I got so much sin stuff but my sub vaults been hella sus

[lucid jackal]

Never seen a contract or a transmitter

[pliant topaz]

dude same im runnign normal still

[lucid jackal]

I mean this vault is worthless for everybody

[pliant topaz]

actually illegal

[lucid jackal]

2 helmets, a glove, a shit trinket,a nd then 2 rings

[pliant topaz]

the triinkets not bad for sin keys if u do wanna try it

[lucid jackal]

I dont play sin in keys anymore

Too annoying

[vale pine]

[pliant topaz]

based af

[lucid jackal]

Just lame

Terrible vaults all tier

[pliant topaz]

they kinda need to add something after .5 or .7 path

patch

where u can deterministically get gear

like 3 bad vaults after .7 -.

[strange chasm]

I'm committed to sin until we kill queen

[pliant topaz]

u get to upgrade somoething

[strange chasm]

Then I'm changing back to sub and never playing sin again

[lucid jackal]

I feel like sub is just better on queen

[pliant topaz]

i think so too

better for platforms

based on my guilds groups platforms is where we are gonna ge tfucked

but i cna carry my firs tplatform

[tidal furnace]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[cloud rover]

But without Transmitter

[strange chasm]

But they do similar damage?

[cloud rover]

You cant play sub i think

[shell lance]

I got a sikran’s endless arsenal

[lucid jackal]

sub is unplayable without a transmitter yeah

[lucid jackal]

Being able to kill 3rd web sets is nice

and first platform damage

[wild hornet]

wait i just realised

why is flaggelation white now

[pliant topaz]

3rd web u have cds right?

[wild hornet]

it used to be red

[pliant topaz]

u just feint kill with cds?

[lucid jackal]

U dont even feint

Sectec just kills them

[pliant topaz]

nice

[strange chasm]

We have 2 warriors

I think we insta gib webs 😦

[lucid jackal]

I just don't really get what sin does on the fight compared to sub

[tidal furnace]

Should we still be using the custom-apl changes when simming, or have they been implemented in simc now?

[wild hornet]

heard its the implemented one now

[strange chasm]

More boss dam according to logs. Does caustic not reach webs etc?

[lilac stag]

@pliant topaz i guess we wait and see if daggie drops?

[lucid jackal]

sins damage is just significantly slower

[shell lance]

I hope today to get it transmitter

[cloud rover]

Sacbrood?

[round latch]

obviously,unless u dont have a 2nd dagger myth track so u take it anyway and equip the 2nd one as well

dont think its unique equipped

[cloud rover]

Or is sacbrood no good for sub

[round latch]

...

[static pewter]

not ideal

[lilac stag]

I think my vers/mast crafted is better than a second 639

even without emb

[round latch]

yeah think so too

but that embelishment is garbage

lol

[lilac stag]

running the numbers

[cloud rover]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[round latch]

think that its minimal and its 3ilvls more to take the vault one

[lilac stag]

if dagger drops it's mine so only real hesitation lol

[round latch]

totally understand

its a free socket

10k dps

there

[old venture]

Yeah big wait to take

[lilac stag]

still better than not 🫶

[lilac stag]

how are you doing today?

[old venture]

I am alive

How are you

[lilac stag]

hanging in there. so about the same

[lilac stag]

626 Contract beats it at 639

[vestal escarp]

Sacbrood big bait

[round latch]

cringe trinket

[cloud rover]

[lucid jackal]

The boss damage both specs do on that fight feel almost identical btw

[round latch]

how do feel the dmg

its the numbers,what do they say

[lucid jackal]

The numbers say they do the same boss damage

[lilac stag]

the same way you feel iris vs bote

[strange chasm]

Interesting. I should just full send recraft back to sub then. Just sucks because I'm geared for both but keys I'm geared sin lmao

[round latch]

[lilac stag]

ez. Key Sub

[crystal spear]

What's up with sub bloodmallet?

[lucid jackal]

I mean just play whatever it probably doesn't matter but sub overall felt better

[lilac stag]

no gear / talents since 11.0.5 update

use !fuu

[crystal spear]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[manic island]

anything new been announced for us?

[lilac stag]

should have whatever youre looking for

[lilac stag]

oldie but a goodie

[round latch]

i still side with bote

[lilac stag]

me too

[round latch]

on-demand was better

[lilac stag]

100%

but I also sided with double vanish assa before it was cool with dot5

[round latch]

💀

[hazy breach]

Next time they update their sims it should be fine, but they havent updated in a week

[vale pine]

i like the gameplay better of sub, but not sure its the overall better choice

[hazy breach]

But ye it sims without talents atm

[lilac stag]

big mad queen stonks

[cloud rover]

https://tenor.com/view/what-do-they-mean-random-numbers-gif-10654449

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/math-numbers-counted-fingers-solution-gif-15969853

[lucid jackal]

First platform is a struggle for many specs, sub hard carries it

[strange chasm]

When you are in a group with a dk and sham you play ass rogue lmao

[round latch]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/t-1KmJHHqzM

[lucid jackal]

3rd web set is also a struggle! Without multiple warriors, which sub also solos

Sin doesn't really "do anything"

[lilac stag]

why? they're destroying trash, destroy the boss

[vale pine]

fair

[strange chasm]

Because sin obliterates trash lmao

[lilac stag]

they already are

[vale pine]

sub works well with the encounetr timings

[round latch]

sub is very fun to play

i like it

idc for stupid raid

i like the spec

[lilac stag]

did you convert to trickster?

[strange chasm]

Not to mention atleast for key pushing the damage reduction and iron wire is really good just for our group

[round latch]

not yet but im trying to convince myself

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/do-it-gif-26049397

[lilac stag]

so as soon as assa gets nerfed we'll see you back here

[vale pine]

subtlty removes parry from the game for your group

so there is that

[strange chasm]

Yes I've only ever played sub until this tier lol

[round latch]

most ppl dont even play IW now btw

[strange chasm]

Ass in keys was too convincing before they changed sub

[hazy breach]

Just to add to this. Its not "does a lot of damage" on the first platform, im doing literally 20% of the damage of my entire 20 man raid

It absolutely hard carries it

[round latch]

they go MA,ditch IW/sangblades and pick TTK

[lilac stag]

are you enjoying the fight eleem?

[lucid jackal]

Yeah

[crisp cradle]

!enchant

[lilac stag]

sim enchants

some form of vers/mastery/cursed

[strange chasm]

Does sub beat assa in prio damage?

[vale pine]

no

[lilac stag]

does assa one phase bosses?

[wild hornet]

does assa do anything?

[lilac stag]

trash dmg

[vale pine]

this is quite good for prio

prio damage in aoe

[lilac stag]

mmhm

[strange chasm]

😦

Trying to convince group to let me play sub lmao

[lunar bluff]

how is subs boss dmg in keys

[pliant topaz]

Preeetty good

[lilac stag]

insane

[lunar bluff]

i need to just int some 12s and see for myself

also need to just get better at sub too

[hazy breach]

Not really, its alright but nothing spectacular

[lucid jackal]

Not on queen lol

[lunar bluff]

are yall running first dance in you rkeys

[hazy breach]

Fairly sure nothing is even close to assa's prio damage in keys

[lilac stag]

enjoying it more or less than last couple of tiers end boss?

[vale pine]

oh no, thats in general

[lucid jackal]

I think he's talking on queen

[lunar bluff]

this is what i ran in the few 12s i did

[vale pine]

queen adds don't survive long enough to rly funnel damage

for prio

[strange chasm]

😦 sin duty I stay lol

[hazy breach]

But assas boss damage is horrid

And subs is phenomenal

[strange chasm]

Yeah the boss damage sucks

[lilac stag]

and sub's prio isnt bad

[strange chasm]

Is what I was try to get them to see

Because with dk sham our prio damage sucks but with sin it's amazing

[vale pine]

which is interesting

[lilac stag]

how is enhance prio bad?

[crisp cradle]

wonder what will be the best for m+ on weapon

[lilac stag]

depths for ST

[hazy breach]

CoT third boss i did 1.54M on a 4 min fight, the DK and the enhance did just below 1M

[lilac stag]

radiant for keys

[warm marlin]

well this is partly since that boss is bugged tbf

[lilac stag]

way to exploit

gg

[crisp cradle]

ty

[lunar bluff]

whats th ebug

ive always wondered, sometimes I BLAST that 3rd boss

[warm marlin]

3rd boss cot has no armor so phys dmg is buffed like 40%

[lunar bluff]

lmaop

[warm marlin]

outlaw eviscerates that boss

[lunar bluff]

yeah

i did 1.61 no lust/pot one pull lmao

is that bug?

the no armor

[warm marlin]

pretty much every other boss in the game has the standard amount of armor including other similarly slimy bosses so i assume so

[lunar bluff]

COT gives off triple outlaw vibes, like throne of tides

[wild hornet]

oh well

was curious to see what hekili had to say about the sub rotation

and i have no clue what any of those sequence have to do wtih anything

[hazy breach]

Ye being unable to hit mobs for like 40 second straight is prime outlaw teritory

[warm marlin]

noobs not hitting the yellow mobs to farm cdr

[round latch]

im searching for a big eggplant to photoshop

but u get the idea^^

[lunar bluff]

but can stay in stealth, just gotta save KIR kinda. also hitting the civilians to keep up your capstone >>>

[wild hornet]

why did heki want me to cast 2/3 symbols almost one after another

[wind canopy]

Because it's not probably setup for the new sub changes.

[wild hornet]

well on ds it kinda gets why it wants to use 1 shuriken storm on st

[lunar bluff]

those changes were at start of the xpac, triple symbols was not

[lilac stag]

Target dummy health is likely in execute range

so I’m assuming it’s trying to unload resources

[wild hornet]

i was doing BRD raid

[lilac stag]

oh haha

So much for that theory

[wild hornet]

and it was kinda at the start ish of the pull

actually no it was probably at low health

maybe its that

[vale pine]

you mean like this?

[round latch]

this is fake

something like this

[vale pine]

eggplant denier

[storm vault]

Sub actually feels so fucking good in M+ rn

[vale pine]

11.0.5 did solve some of the problems

also supercharger is very very strong

[storm vault]

The Sin bandwagoners can keep it

[vale pine]

i like how sub plays currently

i think you can improve on it

[storm vault]

No energy talents?

[pliant topaz]

same, I wouold change some things but i think based on current design if u remove cdr from dance you would need to change a lot to make the spec cohesive again. So assuming htat stays, the only thing I change is probably remove tornado put combo in there done

[storm vault]

The simple fact that BP vs Evus actually matters now is so satisfying. As opposed to just defaulting to one or the other

[pliant topaz]

also make UB proc from storm too

[storm vault]

UB?

[pliant topaz]

unseen blade

also remove mos and make it so when youre out of combat u regen dance /sod faster

[vale pine]

i like some ideas

e.g. blades passive during dance

[lunar bluff]

do ppl run energy stuff?

[vale pine]

making nimble shadow damage

reworking the underperforming talents in the middle row

toranado also a big outdated spell

[pliant topaz]

im fine with this too, but after tuning, it just makes our peak lower and our dances higher which i am a fan of tbh

[storm vault]

I do. That period outside of dance is unbearable otherwise for me. Need energy for feint

[vale pine]

goremaws has no reason to exist

[storm vault]

And stuns

[lunar bluff]

what r you ppl running in keys

[pliant topaz]

i like this a lot too. or make it work with blades at the very least. or both

[pliant topaz]

another thing that could make tornado could would be to make it a buff that every time u cast a finisher, for the next 4 finishers, u strike all targets around you

[vale pine]

pv/lingering/silent storm have no reaosn to exist

[lilac stag]

Make it work with db

Delete tornado

[storm vault]

Your build has me rethinking some talents but one moment

[pliant topaz]

your pure single target talents. just swith shadow focus with improved storm

[vale pine]

FW dependency still feels horrible on spells

etc.

and you can also go to the general tree

subterfuge/vanish charge is completely useless

vigor/tea kinda meh too, but you could argue for them

[lilac stag]

wowhead guide. TFD no nado

[lunar bluff]

why weaponmaster over first dance

[vale pine]

storm costs for sub still way to high

[lilac stag]

You don’t take wm in keys

[vale pine]

so there is a lot of things you can improve on sub

just depends on how much time and effort you want to put in

[lunar bluff]

this is what ive been using

[vale pine]

make strike hit all targets

new silent storm

[storm vault]

Im for sure replacing weaponmaster with first dance for M+ after

[pliant topaz]

u can alos take tfd over wm. doesnt really matter. tfd is a bit better overall. wm a bit better on bosses.

[vale pine]

https://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/rogue/subtlety/trickster/DANEVVFRRRUVZggVDUAQOVUREQVEVRUQWhUBQEFVVUCAQ

my personal preference

[lilac stag]

That’s the standard m+, I personally take execution for the absorb

[pliant topaz]

im just looking at the tree and it like almost everything we take is quite litearlly mandatory except VT.

[storm vault]

I like the absorb but its hard to judge the benfit

[pliant topaz]

so chaning silent storm would be weird cuz it is competing with mandatory thigs

whereas tornado can compete with vt

[vale pine]

tornado/wm

[pliant topaz]

and u can make the strike thing /shuriken combo thing/ whatever be instead dof tornado

[vale pine]

premediation

[pliant topaz]

eh

premeditation is weird

[vale pine]

a big part of the middle row

is not mandatory

[pliant topaz]

not really its only premed/wm that are not

thats 2 talents

[lilac stag]

If I need an extra 8% healing, I’m likely getting an external

[vale pine]

but we most likely

move thse two around

but e.g. if you make blades passive

shadowcraft migth be not mandatory

so you possibly end up freeing 2 points

[storm vault]

Yeah. Thoughts on running it with vanish shield tho?

[strange chasm]

What does premed even do now

[vale pine]

pv/lingering/goremaws are poins you can switch to

by removing one point in rotten

all 3 are just not good talent options

[barren tree]

what other trinkets we can use besides transmitter?

[vale pine]

so there is a crtain dynamic, its just that talents are not interessting enough to consider

[pliant topaz]

if u make blades passive many things will be gone but not shadowcraft.

[vale pine]

any of the passive options is fine

[storm vault]

I use skardyns

[vale pine]

fair

[pliant topaz]

shadowcraft inev -> means more energy -> more cps outside of dance -> more danacces -> more blades

[storm vault]

My skardyns is mythic though

[vale pine]

i would also be a fan of making inev not rely on shadowstrike/backstab casts

but rather static

[pliant topaz]

I kinda want inev gone

instead blades gives u 1 charge of sod

[vale pine]

a symbols reset mechanic

would be cool too

[pliant topaz]

I think its a lot more interesting than just inev

and would be needed if danace cdr got removed

[storm vault]

Hot take but I like dance CDR

[pliant topaz]

what do u like about it

[dreamy bramble]

In raid, do we pool SD/SoD charges before ShB/Flag usage?

[pliant topaz]

what is there to like

[pliant topaz]

yes

[lilac stag]

nothing. Just wants to have a hot take. lol

[barren tree]

is it a lot weaker than transmitter for m+? or not that much

[storm vault]

I just do. There is no benefit over a properly tuned build with no CDR but I just like it

[storm vault]

Its weaker but like I said, mine is mythic. I use it for the non blades burst

[vale pine]

the cdr would work

if the spec was still designed around it

atm its more a inconvinience

you don't get enough cdr to do much with it

[pliant topaz]

i mean sure, cant argue with that. I can go to a restaurant and order swege water instead of a normal drink, and they ask me why do u like it and i say i just do no reason. kinda same vibe

[barren tree]

oh u guys dont use on-use trinkets with blades?

[lunar bluff]

sub CDR is weird to me, sitting on stuff is a requirement and feels bad

[pliant topaz]

we do. we use transmitter. its a mandatory trinket for sub

[storm vault]

Well you had asked for trinkets to use alongside transmitter

[vale pine]

the reason the dance economy does not work

is that it was designed with more charges and shorter dances in mind

[pliant topaz]

u would be sitting regarless of cdr. thats the side effect of charges not cdr

[vale pine]

its more that it wasn't updated

[barren tree]

oh i meant like alternative since i cant get transmitter haha

[vale pine]

and now removing the cdr feels like it would be no change

[storm vault]

Oooh. Then yeah skardyns. Its just much weaker

[hazy breach]

Unfortunately there really aint one

[mental comet]