subtlety

[alpine wraith]

but tornado is more dps

just rabid as f to use

[tulip gorge]

what do you take instead of it? Veiltouched?

[alpine wraith]

most likely people use it badly too

ye

[tulip gorge]

shuriken tornado is indeed a bit cursed

I have no clue how to use it properly

do I use it inside dance? outside dance? who knows

[lilac stag]

It only helps with cdr and people generally hate playing with it.

[alpine wraith]

no you use it to put ruptures or after cds to get some cdr

whatever you prefer

[tulip gorge]

I see

I've been trying sub in m+, the spec is quite fun now

I feel like it's mostly a tuning issue now

[lilac stag]

Yeah. Assa and enhance overtuned.

Sub tuning is fine in keys. It melts bosses and does more than respectable cleave.

You’re just not going to lol details

[tulip gorge]

I used to be a sub hater, but now I enjoy the gameplay a lot

do you use shuriken storm during dance if you are trickster?

or is it just non-stop cleave

[lilac stag]

Storm outside of dance

as long as flawless is up

If not up then stab

[elfin hound]

is there any silken mythic video after the sub changes?

[lilac stag]

cds should be similar. https://lorrgs.io/spec_ranking/rogue-subtlety/the-silken-court

[young mountain]

Is there a reason why Vulpera is simming so high for sub rogue?

[hazy breach]

Its not

Bloodmallet doesnt have any talents atm for sub because its not updated

[young mountain]

Ah so its still dog

got it

[ornate current]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/304343434137960449/1283842520308256858/image.png

[lilac stag]

Race sims are available in the rogue spreadsheet.

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lean arrow]

Sub really hard to play?

[hazy breach]

Its unintuitive, but its easier than its been in previous iterations

[young mountain]

Something tells me vulpera will still be dog

[hazy breach]

When does bloomallet refresh their sims

Any knowers

I update the profile like 3 days ago

[wind canopy]

Hopefully never

Save TCs the headache of sending in profiles

[hazy breach]

Its the default simc profile so the simc website wants it too

[wind canopy]

Oh

[lilac stag]

Is the default profile current on simc? I haven’t checked lately

[lilac stag]

Ahah. Missed that.

[woeful egret]

are we preferring sub over sin for queen?

[hazy breach]

Either is fine, realistically it depends on where you want CDs

Sub is very bad at doing damage to the shield for example, and really good on the first platform

[mighty delta]

are we only using powder on large packs right?

[idle aurora]

hi friends

can someome help me with my thoughts

to make sure i understand the things

[lilac stag]

12+

[hazy breach]

Its its like 12+ where bp starts to win out

[mighty delta]

ok cool tyty

[idle aurora]

so is backstab always better than shruiken toss?

storm sotrry

[hazy breach]

No

[lilac stag]

No

Only when flawless not up

[hazy breach]

Storm on 2 or more targets

[idle aurora]

isnt fazed always up in you attack

or do you need to apply with backstab

[lilac stag]

Flawless

[idle aurora]

ohhh i get it

so backstab too apply fazed

shriuken to combo point

[hazy breach]

Flawless, not fazed

[idle aurora]

sorry i been on dummies for like an hour apparently doing this wrong

this speck is making eyes bleed

[lilac stag]

I mean, not every spec can be learned in 60 minutes.

[idle aurora]

wtf how am i going to know is flawless is up on more than 2 targets

[hazy breach]

Flawless is a buff on you

Not on the target

[lilac stag]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Oxi

[lilac stag]

Would suggest wowhead

[hazy breach]

Theres a reason we keep correcting you when you say fazed

Because theyre not the same thing

[idle aurora]

i have horrible adhd and learning and reading to do stuff is brutally difficult for me

so i tend to use wrong words alot 😦

[lilac stag]

it has pictures

We’re just repeating what’s written there with more writing.

Keep at it. It’s not intuitive, and it’s not for everyone.

[warm aspen]

is this spec rly that hard tho lol

i swear idk where this conception comes from

[lilac stag]

Yes for most players

[warm aspen]

it's so intuitive to play nowadays

like before the rework yeah this shit is a nightmare

[idle aurora]

the thig that makes it hard for a new playter

is understanding

burst windows that are different

managing like 6 cooldowns

is alot different

than just using a cooldown and burning

[lilac stag]

You have 5 CDs, 2 majors with same cd and none are in total sync

[idle aurora]

^this is what makes it insane hard to learn lol

[lilac stag]

it’s unintuitive by wow dps standards

[warm aspen]

that's insane lmao

[idle aurora]

like i keep not shadow dancing and sec tec until symbols of death is off cooldown

[hazy breach]

Definitely isnt

[idle aurora]

and i think im missing alot of burst windows

because im waiting

for it all to align

[warm aspen]

ig im just lucky that i introduced myself to wow in general thru sin/sub

[hazy breach]

Like most people that read danse macabre dont immediately assume sectech should be your first finisher

Most assume it should be the last, with as many stacks as possible, because that makes sense intuitively

[idle aurora]

wait

based on rotation

[warm aspen]

yeh ppl who didn't learn that thru playing early df get wrecked by that ig

[idle aurora]

should i be waiting for symbols to be up before doing burst combo?

[lilac stag]

it wasn’t first finisher in DF

[idle aurora]

thats kinda what wow head implies

[hazy breach]

You should always have 2 symbols and 2 shadow dances during flag+blades

[warm aspen]

i mean 1st or second isn't a super big deal right

[lilac stag]

It is

[warm aspen]

unless u have coup up

like b4 u enter dance

[hazy breach]

Maybe we just have different defintions of the word intuitive

[short radish]

ehhhh i dont think it's true. probably at least since s1 DF this is probably harder than the others

[hazy breach]

I dont think so

[warm aspen]

yeh danse is def something that READS like it would make us play like WW

[lilac stag]

You should read what sub tier set does.

[short radish]

up till abberus it sub was just - press buttons on cooldown never hodl

then afterwards was dust fiasco

but you could sstill spreadsheet it

[warm aspen]

lol i feel like if the tier set meant that much, we wouldn't have been sending sectech 2nd on DS for so long

[short radish]

this one i'm stil trying to juggle when to hold dance and blade and sectech

[lilac stag]

And then supercharger happened. Our tier is OP

[hazy breach]

Youre probably overthinking it. As long as youre getting 2x dances and 2x symbols in your burst youre doing most of your damage

[wind canopy]

Yeah, the key is just simplifying it

[lilac stag]

But super intuitive.

[hazy breach]

2 of each during cds and then one outside cds > repeat is gonna cover most of it without any spreadsheet or whatever

[wind canopy]

What Eleem said, and then outside of CDs, trying to send ST on CD and combining it with SoD and/or Dance if you can do so

[warm aspen]

lol actually curious now, is that more damage than optimizing coup/fazed

seems strange that 3 cp to both sectech and 1 evsic would put so much value into the tier bonus

[crystal spear]

are the bloodmallet trinket charts accurate for sub?

[wind canopy]

No

[crystal spear]

what trinkets do we want?

[hazy breach]

Transmitter

[woeful barn]

Returning from Legion lads. How’s sub feeling atm pace wise?

[short radish]

do you like doing big numbers and providing great utility for the team?

[woeful barn]

Ethical gaming for sure. Details is whatever.

[short radish]

okay well sub doesnt do much of the utility

does kinda big numbers every 1.5 minutes

[woeful barn]

Enhance shamans prolly have that covered

[short radish]

enhance has everything covered

big damage
aoe cc
short interrupt
decurse for GB/SV
lust

but that being said

sub is kinda fun now

you do really nice boss damage

[woeful barn]

I’m sure sub plays nothing like it did in ToS/Antorus so I don’t want to even bring it up but fun factor is still there I hope?

[short radish]

fun is subjective

but yeah

it's fun

[hazy breach]

Not too dissimilar

Still stacking cds

For big bonks

Just in a slightly different way

[woeful barn]

Sweet. Sub is the only spec for me so I’ll give it a shot. Glad to not read dooming and cope. Ty guys.

DFA is gone tho that’s sadge but w.e

[short radish]

don't worry we have DFA at home 🙂

[short radish]

welcome back brotherman

you came back at a decent time

if you came 2 weeks ago it'd be straight dooming

but now we're kinda enjoying life

[hazy breach]

Sectech feels pretty similar to DFA except it doesnt have the big animation

But its a real big bonk

[woeful barn]

Thank you. Timing is everything I suppose.

It looks different than the version I dabbled with I don’t even remember what expac but that button didn’t do shit

Looks sick now

[short radish]

@hazy breach how are you dealing with root breaks on ansurek?

did you have to gnome swap?

[hazy breach]

vanish > cloak > kill > vanish

[short radish]

so just hodl vanish in opener?

[hazy breach]

But if you have nobody else that needs to get killed out i would suggest going gnome

Yes

[short radish]

kk

i don't want to gnome though 😦

[hazy breach]

If youre the only one that needs to have their tomb broken its super scuffed

[short radish]

kk

thanks mate

assi doesnt really have it any easier as well right?

since same cds

[woeful barn]

DFA would’ve cheesed it

Jkjk

[hazy breach]

Technically you can take a -2% loss and play 2x vanish for it

Which is partly outweighted by the orc racial being better

[short radish]

wait is that the tech? time coup for the webs

and use the invuln

yeah but i'm a stinky human

[hazy breach]

Coup doesnt have invuln

[short radish]

oh i thought it did

[hazy breach]

Dfa did

Coup doesnt

[lucid jackal]

U also hold cooldowns for the kill web set

[short radish]

thanks

[hazy breach]

If you have 2 fury warriors its probably fine either way, but might aswell hold because you dont want to use flag at 3 min anyway

(they do a lot of damage to the webs with their 90s cds)

[short radish]

i think we'll have one

[shrewd lantern]

why is everyone sub on ansurek

or is it just monkey see monkey do

[hazy breach]

Well before assa buffs it did more damage

Now either is fine

But not many other specs have big 90s cds, whereas theres plenty of 2 min ones

[shrewd lantern]

lok guild sending double outlaw

[hazy breach]

Probably fine too, just sucks a bit during knockbacks

[shrewd lantern]

new knocks?

[hazy breach]

Lok always does well on outlaw though

Constructed alternatively

[shrewd lantern]

nah im just wondering

because fyrak had a shield phase

main case for sub

[native zodiac]

sub is a lot more tanky then assa

kinda makes it the better prog spec for it imo

also sub is one of the 2 classes that has cds on platform 1

prob not needed anymore now with the amount of dmg you have but that was also a reason

[shrewd lantern]

yeah i meant more reason why people are progging it now

as sub

post wf/top 10

[hazy breach]

Because they want to

I cant speak much for outlaw, but both assa and sub do good damage

Just at different points

[native zodiac]

^ i sent a full night on prog as assa but i went back to sub personally

both are completly fine

you are there for boss dmg which both specs do good

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah it was more of a curiosity thing

as to why people not playing sub the entire tier

suddenly playing it now

[native zodiac]

kyveza kinda had akward timings for sub

and brood assa was just better

[shrewd lantern]

part of me just figured people see what the top guilds kill as

and copy

[shrewd lantern]

outlaw boss if you dont get a single charge

jk

[hazy breach]

Just cloak it

[shrewd lantern]

well you still lose uptime

[native zodiac]

p sure i saw lok actually have the top log on kyveza for a while as outlaw

by like 200k

[shrewd lantern]

running to your spot

[native zodiac]

that was crazy

[shrewd lantern]

he did pre nerf

not sure who has post buff rank 1

ermm pre buffs

I mean being able to have perma feint must be nice ngl

[native zodiac]

honestly

i lost track on how many times logs changed now

[hazy breach]

2

[native zodiac]

[hazy breach]

Pre-0.5
First week of .5 (aka outlaw bugs)
2+ week of .5

[shrewd lantern]

ngl sin is the most complete spec this season

if dsm was a personal buff i think there’d be nothing stopping it

[native zodiac]

i personally enjoyed echoing assa more then the surpercharge one now

but supercharge is a lot better for sub

atleast thats how it feels for me

[shrewd lantern]

supercharger makes sense the most for sub

imo

[native zodiac]

yeah

i personally enjoy the current sub a lot compared to before

but i liked assa more before the change

[worthy escarp]

How do you guys use cds for rasha'nan? Trickster before deathstalker Also or ?

[tribal blade]

is there any kind of baiting you can do for the daggers on kyveza

like prespreading away from middle before they go out

[hazy breach]

Yes it aims at people

[tribal blade]

becuase it feels impossible to dodge if you get one smack in middle sometimes

did you guys run out a bit before they go out?

to try to bait

[hazy breach]

Not really, could just stand on the side of the boss

[tribal blade]

mm gotcha

[hazy breach]

for most of them you want to be in the middle hexagon anyway

To dodge the balls from the queensbane stuff

[tribal blade]

oh yeah for sure

the big issue is when it's right in melee it's crazy hard to dodge

[pliant topaz]

yeah sometimes its really close and u have to maybe get off boss for 2 seconds

usually its not too bad though since tanks are usually reposintioning boss so u can move with

okay im also a bit sad. lost NW 14 to tank dying to commet storm and not having instant brez so boss just killed all. 16% on boss 3 minutes left :c

but also im kinda happy because i relized this key is beyond fuckign free

15 next week surely

[hazy breach]

It should be, but ive tried it like 10 times at 14 and havent timed it. Theres always something

[tribal blade]

oh my god

that's tragic

[sacred cedar]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sacred cedar]

is bloodmallet trinket sims bricked rn?

[tribal blade]

yeah NW is kinda weird that way, it has a lot of moving parts

and you fuck up 1 thing everyone dies

[hazy breach]

Yes sub sims on bloodmallet are bricked until they update it

[hazy breach]

My favourite is somebody dying downstairs on last boss and not getting tped

So its just over

[sacred cedar]

do we have cuirrent, accurate trinket sims outside bloodmallet?

[hazy breach]

Even though we had 3 crs

[hazy breach]

Transmitter + anything

Knife/mandate/contract/crystal all fine

But transmitter is the trinket

[pliant topaz]

To be fair I also learned that if you port out to go sub and come back you lose your spear.

My spear was designated for last boss

If I had spear boss woulda been dead by then

[hazy breach]

Ye cant do that

[pliant topaz]

Yeah didn’t know next time for sure

Legit was too free

[tribal blade]

bro that boss is just terribly designed

[hazy breach]

As is the rest of the bosses in that dungeon

[tribal blade]

yeah honestly

SL dungeons in general were too complicated

btw moving off kyveza before daggers go otu

seems to work well

[sacred cedar]

I got a mandate just now

have a mythic skardyns, hero deadeye/contract

and im torn on if I should pass off the mandate

it's only strong on single target, but then that's precisely what it is for literally everyone it's good for

[lilac stag]

you want transmitter ideally

[spark tusk]

Finally did heroic queen with guild, so mad I died on the p1 intermission, my fps tanks so bad during then so when the pull went out I stepped correctly to live but then strafed slightly and my pinky toe went inside the ring then they killed, I was doing ok I think all night. I'm only 618 and most of them are 5/8 M. During raid lag tho i'm still munching CP like a MF because of replicating bug

[pliant topaz]

yeah intermission is brutal on my fps too

hope u had fun!

also sub stonks pog

[tribal blade]

i was queueing with my ele to get him his last 13, a NW

queued as sub, we didn't get invited

canceled the queue, swapped to sin, re-queued and insta invite

i hate people

[warm aspen]

HAHAHAHA

[pliant topaz]

people do be pretty gross ngl

[warm aspen]

truly one of the world of warcraft moments of all time

[tribal blade]

i mean if you're 3100 and queueing for a 13

you know what you're doing

[warm aspen]

did u swap sub right before they put the key just to spite them lmao

[tribal blade]

nahhh

no point

because if the key failed they would blame me for it

even if it had absolutely nothing to do with being sin

sub*

[warm aspen]

WELL

if they do that

cant u just flame them

[supple verge]

does sac somehow cause heaving retch on blightbone to be immune?

[woeful egret]

so I got mad queen's mandate tonight, how does that work out? do I just use it during dance or something or do I do it after?

[lilac stag]

outside of cds

[woeful egret]

ty

[tribal blade]

the WW in my guild just asked if it was worth sub to use transmitter

[round latch]

disgusting

[tribal blade]

he's trying to tell me it's not worth if it's just a small increase

and i said trust

it's really big

[round latch]

im getting declined in 8s on my mage,got like almost all on 11

doing well above 1.1-1.2mil

ppl are just shtheads with alot of ego

[golden totem]

No mage on MDI

Too bad for u

[tepid trellis]

not even 2mil without aug

fallen off

[pliant topaz]

okay but the ret was padding too hard

also

https://tenor.com/view/apt-blackpink-rose-apt-rose-mak-rose-rosé-gif-17440988294150416254

[warm aspen]

LUL heroic transmitter is like a 5.5% increase for me

over 639 spyglass and 626 ritual knife

i think that's like, more than tier right

[tepid trellis]

lol dont you guys have the mythic version?

[pliant topaz]

i hate u

[warm aspen]

https://tenor.com/view/do-you-guys-not-have-a-phone-blizzard-diablo-gif-5097388828827651695

[warm aspen]

https://tenor.com/view/you-guys-are-getting-paid-gif-20686662

you guys are getting on-use trinkets?

wait actually i do have skardyn's...

[pliant topaz]

i havent even gotten a heroic one yet

let alone mythic

[warm aspen]

yeah ngl at this point i might just stick with double passive

imagine having to farm a trinket that feels horrible to use just becuz numbers are high...

[tepid trellis]

you prolly still higher ilvl than me

so can it

[spark tusk]

damn that sucks but I got a tip for you you can just loot one, not that hard, just when you kill the boss click the chest to loot it and it'll be there . It even has speed on it

https://tenor.com/view/qeliameow-cat-paw-cats-paw-dance-gif-3807241812430059413

[pliant topaz]

631 :/

[pliant topaz]

i hate you a lot

[tepid trellis]

yep

so suck it

[warm aspen]

"let them eat cake" ahh comment right here lmao

gosh i love it here

yall are such awesome gremlins

[tepid trellis]

!cds

[wicked jolt]

Cooldown Use:
Cooldown Breakdown Spreadsheet - by Stealthi
Website visualizing top logs - lorrgs.io

[sick jackal]

Your not alone am using a normal version myself

One day the light will shine on us and we get it from mythic

[pliant topaz]

too shrimple really

out of the 4 dudes that plauy the spec

we shrimply press buttons harder

get fucked

631 >630

skrill gapped

[spark tusk]

I got some orange parses tonight... ilvl parses that is

hard out here being 620

[pliant topaz]

we shrimply do a leather funnel for u tbh

ez

[tepid trellis]

tough talk for someone stuck on Silken buddy

[pliant topaz]

okay that boss can smd ngl

why is my dh a felrushing terrorist

why am i getting invis spiked

[pliant topaz]

its joever for me. we are probably gonna kill silken nexet week then lock on queen....

[tepid trellis]

just kill it?

[pliant topaz]

so i have like at most 2 more shot

of it

[tepid trellis]

rylers guild killed it

think seli did as well

git gud

ong

[pliant topaz]

:C if they buffed sub i coulda done big stonks damage and killed it but noooooo

they keep buffing sin instead

[spark tusk]

I messed up my final cds on silken

I was a glboal delayed on getting transmitter orb

which set me back 2 globals

the boss died in the damage amp

[short radish]

our DK won the roll on the mythic one

[spark tusk]

literally before sectec

with cb

[short radish]

after getting the heroic one two weeks ago

[spark tusk]

Like

[sick jackal]

I bless you with a mythic transmitter that i will never get, use it in good time and remember with great items comes great dps

[spark tusk]

I finish the fight with CB on me

because the next global was me spamming sectec

woulda been an extra 10m dam ez

[pliant topaz]

ty ty surely itll show up in my vault with avoidance

[spark tusk]

20m

[pliant topaz]

ngl thats gotta be illegal

[sick jackal]

Not even vault you get it as a drop dw

[short radish]

every time a wipe is called on silken court, i make sure to shadow step right on top of him

[pliant topaz]

at the end of the day...

https://tenor.com/view/apt-blackpink-rose-apt-rose-mak-rose-rosé-gif-17440988294150416254

https://tenor.com/view/type-shit-type-shi-i-be-on-type-shit-i-be-on-gif-4231385896814735783

[wind canopy]

Says the one that lost multiple roles

[spark tusk]

yeah that was before I realized I could just loot it

it was right there the whole time

[wind canopy]

lol

[fallow nimbus]

Is it wise to make the rogue play first platform portals at queen?

I don't know if it overlaps with cds for first add

[tepid trellis]

no bueno

[wind canopy]

Nice

Or rather NAISU

[fallow nimbus]

Now it's 1. Portal 2nd platform

[tepid trellis]

1-2 on platform 2 is okay

2nd is better

[golden totem]

We juice one dance on 2nd platform then go portal

[cursive vapor]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Oxi

[rapid crystal]

so why don't i always get slice and dice when using eviscerate?

[sand patio]

if I'm in middle of sod and just used sec, should I use dance if possible?

[vale pine]

you should

no, you won't use dance after secret

[sand patio]

:~ I'm playing all wrong

[golden totem]

You wanna send all your cd together, usually centered around your symbol window

[rapid crystal]

hm i am currently trying zekvir ?? and it looks like sometimes my eviscerate doesn't give me snd, but probably i didn't see correctly or did something wrong haha

[alpine wraith]

coup does not give slice

for some reason

[tidal python]

at this point they should just make slice and dice a permanent passive

[vale pine]

yes

[rapid crystal]

oh true maybe sometimes i think i am using evis but coup is proccing without me realizing

[nimble burrow]

should i put my burst in add pull when facing Horror?

finally i can use rogue in Mythic

[fallow nimbus]

Just use it on pull

[uncut bloom]

Sub is very fun in keys, I’m vibing.

[shell lance]

Is elvui or tukui?

[nimble burrow]

elvui

i am bad...

[shell lance]

For the nerub’ar weakaura i use the echo raid tools because you have the possibility to download the wa directly in the AddOns wa

[shell lance]

Beautyfull ui

[nimble burrow]

ty mate

[shell lance]

So is elvui and the rest of AddOns?

[nimble burrow]

cells?

then idk

[tepid agate]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
It is not recommended to macro most cooldowns.
The following macros are an exception:yaml /cast Cold Blood /cast Secret Technique

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Thistle Tea```
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key.

[tribal blade]

if it makes you feel better, i see you have 5.8 mil hp

[nimble burrow]

[tribal blade]

so you're not very well geared, that'll naturally make your parse worse

i think i have something like 6.18 mil hp atm

[nimble burrow]

already 626 for me rn

i found myself still need more practice in sub

[tribal blade]

most mythic raiders are over 630 ilvl by now

[nimble burrow]

always not good in raid

oh...

[tribal blade]

yeah ilvl plays a big part in parses

[nimble burrow]

thats fair

[tribal blade]

but also doing the fight for the first time like you're doing

most of the parses on that boss are people who have the boss on farm

so we know the fight very well now

[nimble burrow]

yea

[tribal blade]

prog kill parses tend to not be great, and that's totally fine

so long as you get the kill that's all that matters 😉

then on reclears you can try to be sweaty for parsing

[golden totem]

For the current m+, is the minimum value for rupture spreading still around 12sec?

[tribal blade]

iirc something like that

[golden totem]

How about tornado usage

Outside dance?

[tribal blade]

yeah outside dance to farm back cdr

[golden totem]

Good, gonna give it a try

[tribal blade]

but if you don't want to mess with nado you can play VT instead

i'm playing with VT over nado

[golden totem]

I'll try

Both

[tribal blade]

waiting for the day for them to replace nado

[hazy breach]

All my homies hate nado

[tribal blade]

all the bad spells are going 1 by 1

nado's time will come

and maybe goremaw's

[tribal blade]

what would you replace nado with

[golden totem]

Nado when shadowcraft exists feels very weird

[fallow nimbus]

With shuriken hurricane

It's like tornado but triggers with finishers

[keen dome]

Replace Nado with a Shuriken Combo buff duration

[hazy breach]

Probably something similar to how they made ER passive

[tribal blade]

supercharger is a banger change

agreed

[hazy breach]

Like after 10 shuriken storm casts or when you enter dance your next finisher casts a storm or something

[tribal blade]

oo the 2nd part sounds cool

[keen dome]

Yeah that'd be cool.

Make it cast a SecTec

[vale pine]

after x casts sounds weird

[keen dome]

When you enter dance, your next finisher also casts a SecTec for X less damage.

[tribal blade]

we did have shadow nova during legion

[vale pine]

i rather have them add a aoe node instead of keeping tornado in a similar way

[tribal blade]

i know a lot of people didn't like it, but i did

[keen dome]

Fuu's idea of the glavie thing was probably the best sounding one

[alpine wraith]

shadow nova and second shuriken were whatever

but at least it was nice

[tribal blade]

wait what was 2nd shuriken, i forget

[alpine wraith]

every time you shuriken stormed there was a chance to proc an extra dmg event

[tribal blade]

ahhh yeah i see

i would lean towards something that gave us more cdr

[vale pine]

don't know if i want more stomr damage too

[tribal blade]

if they're unwilling to revert the nerf to deepening

[vale pine]

ideally we have a talent that focuses on what tornado did well

providing a kind of aoe burst button

[keen dome]

Two floating large shurikens that spin around doing damage to anything they pass through

ideally added when they bring back waycrest manor again.

[supple verge]

one large shuriken you ride on

[keen dome]

For maximum carnage and comedy

[supple verge]

call it Knee Remover

[alpine wraith]

i would not mind if we got a breath of shurikenadosa

10 secs baseline and 1 sec per every finisher

[keen dome]

I do like the idea of AoE burst / AoE buff to burst. Giving us really strong AoE burst windows like we have for ST. Consume our basic resource cooldowns to either do X or Y is fun imo

Realistically it'd probably be way too strong.

[supple verge]

fujita scale stacks for keeping it up

[keen dome]

But having the choice of "Okay I can burn my cooldowns here to do big AoE but then I can't do big ST until they come up again"

[supple verge]

get yourself a real f5 shuriken storm

[tribal blade]

well given how sub isn't exactly topping meters in M+ atm

we could use more power

more aoe power specifically

[keen dome]

Although I suppose the issue is that nimble flurry massively confuses the situation..

[tribal blade]

sub's aoe is very confusing atm

[supple verge]

thematically since nado comes after replicating, they could lean into that flavor

[vale pine]

nimble flurry:
physical attack -> shadow damage

[tribal blade]

how exactly would blizz go about buffing sub's aoe without buffing ST

[supple verge]

make it so the shadow clones from sec techs stick around for a second, then explode into a shuriken storm

[keen dome]

honestly yes just do this

[supple verge]

so you bake nado into sec techs

with 1 talent point

[keen dome]

Right? That's why my idea has stopped dead. I was thinking: Oh you could make SB buff your next finisher to do X or Y. So if you use BP first, it is an AoE buff. If you use Evis first, you get a ST buff. but this is completely unviable with Nimble..

[tribal blade]

yeah nimble doing shadow damage for sub would be so big

[vale pine]

sounds stupid but

what if you added 2 more shadow clone attacks to secret with another delay

🙈

[keen dome]

hell yeah

[supple verge]

so the tank can pull the mobs even further away

[tribal blade]

MORE bugs

pile em on

we got a lot, we do with more

[keen dome]

But I do think that buffing Nimble to do flurry would be cool.

[supple verge]

but yea i want to see more shadow clone jutsu talents

[keen dome]

Also they should just bake Dark brew into the spec because it's thematically cool no I will not apply any further thought to balance here.

[vale pine]

i think brew is overall a good node

but finality is "expensive" to path

[alpine wraith]

yea man make sec tech have 10 clones over 1 min

[keen dome]

Yeah. I like Brew because it's easy to understand, thematic and does a lot for the spec without needing you to play around it.

[alpine wraith]

and they just attack randomly

FUN

like ky veza trink

[keen dome]

Haha yeah

[alpine wraith]

every finisher has a chance to proc it

[keen dome]

Yo give us a new finality

[alpine wraith]

i mean prob with finality is just numbers

[void hound]

i love the visuals on kyveza's abilities
and when contract procs it looks so cool

[alpine wraith]

too low

[keen dome]

If a mob has under 10% HP there is a chance to strike it for X damage and reduce the CD of Sectec

Just wholesale steal her assassination

[void hound]

sub needs a yone style ult, dashing through enemies for big aoe

like doing the regicide thing

[tribal blade]

since sin is the execute rogue spec

give us her daggers

[keen dome]

Yeees

Kyveza is our queen

[tribal blade]

the daggers she tosses

which are a menace on mythic my god

i finally stopped getting hit by them today

[alpine wraith]

it depends a lot of the tanks

if they like to murder people they put it close to the copies

[hollow cobalt]

How many rogues do you guys play ? Actively or not

[keen dome]

I have two but I only really play one. My second is for LFR transmog and stuff.

[golden totem]

3

[lucid lily]

I have 3 at 70 and one that I actually raid with. I’ll eventually level the others when I’m bored for extra chances at mog that I haven’t gotten yet

[hollow cobalt]

My pandaren and kul tiran one are still at 70, ill level them when im bored too

[hollow cobalt]

The other one is sub too ?

[keen dome]

Outlaw

[lucid lily]

Two of mine are sub and the other two are sin and outlaw

[muted agate]

when buff aoe

[uncut socket]

when give back cd pulling

[hazy breach]

Tbh dont think sub needs aoe buffs

[sly shore]

I disagree

[hazy breach]

Ye blades should work with nimble

[leaden prairie]

buff nimble

[hazy breach]

But like, sub does good damage in keys

[sly shore]

Does blades still not work with sectech

[hazy breach]

It does not

[sly shore]

smile

bugged ass spec

[leaden prairie]

seems intended at this pointtho

[sly shore]

tooltip lies

fix tooltip

(not secret technique lol)

[uncut socket]

they just slow at fixing bugs, some raid and dungeonbreaking have been here since day one of play testing lol

[leaden prairie]

i think its similar to that outlaw bug

that make ambush be able to proc 3 times

they dont want to fix it cause it fucks with tuning

and would require buffing ho in multiple ways

and they cba with it

[sly shore]

yep

it wouldn't significantly buff st would itthough

let's see

[leaden prairie]

i dont think these bugs are really important tho

its just damage

kinda whatever

sub is tuned around that anyway

[hazy breach]

Replicating bug sucks though

[muted agate]

fix sec tech and nimble fury

:(

[hazy breach]

But its not like sub is bad in keys

Its just not as good as assa

[sly shore]

would be like 30% of sectech damage

so 6% buff to ST

if it worked with sectech

[leaden prairie]

i think sub might be better than outlaw in keys rn

[sly shore]

sub actually isn't bad

it's just that assa is THAT MUCH BETTER

[leaden prairie]

just need someone willing to play the spec in keys

[sly shore]

bro the fucking damage assa does in aoe is filth

[hazy breach]

Subs boss damage is filthy

[sly shore]

sub absolutely destroys assa on bosses

it's not even close

but assa just does that much more aoe

[hazy breach]

Im trying but i cant always have premades and sometimes pugs spot my swappero

[sly shore]

like first room of NW assa finishing trash on 5M damage

5M dps

[hazy breach]

Queue as assa swap to sub before key starts

[sly shore]

[leaden prairie]

:)

i know the struggle

[hazy breach]

Then they hit me with the sub???? on like first boss

Then they lose by 300k overall anyway

[sly shore]

Yeah tbh I have done some keys as sub

and pugs are shocked sub actually out damages them

[near rivet]

we need to pay someone to pick sub on one key on mdi

[leaden prairie]

i think sub have potential to do r1 keys

[near rivet]

rest will snowball

[leaden prairie]

just need assa to finally get nerfed

[sly shore]

We've been trying to convince fotm to play it in stonevault

[supple verge]

theyll probably only pick sub for speedshroud or perma tricks cheese if at all

[hazy breach]

Its also nice to be like 15% more tanky than assa

[sly shore]

the funnel on all the bosses is actually disgusting

[leaden prairie]

sv is a outlaw key wdym

[sly shore]

not in mdi

[leaden prairie]

[supple verge]

the tankyness is why ive been swapping to sub with my group for sure

[near rivet]

dawnbreaker feels very sub like

[supple verge]

sin is just so fragile

[sly shore]

you pull adds on every boss

trickster sub is going to fucking dominate

[hazy breach]

Deathstalker has way more prio than trickster 💀

[leaden prairie]

Sub doesn't funnel rn tho

[sly shore]

you can

[leaden prairie]

It just does prio

[strange chasm]

In fairness so is sin

[near rivet]

you kinda get ur cds faster

[hazy breach]

As trickster its mostly just cdr

[sly shore]

yuh

[hazy breach]

So you can get dances for every symbols

[strange chasm]

Rupture spread agi increase goes hard

[hazy breach]

But deathstalker prio is assa levels

Just have to play deathstalker, which sucks

[sly shore]

they don't need aoe damage

they already have too much

so deathstalker is probably a big pick

assa ST is nowhere close to sub rogues in keys

[strange chasm]

Fatebound sin is actually kinda fun

[sly shore]

yeah and zdps

💀

[strange chasm]

You get big bursts

[vestal escarp]

sin true funnel spec

[strange chasm]

You get to roleplay as sub

With fatebound sin

[sly shore]

assa loses 300k dps in their ttk spec

in single target

[vestal escarp]

sin meta is basically trying to find all the strats to have scent up on bosses

[sly shore]

sub loses practically zero in m+ spec

[strange chasm]

Yeah if sin gets a utility nerf

You'll see sub wayyy more

[sly shore]

there are keys where you drop the utility

but assa does astronomically more aoe dps

it's not even close

[vestal escarp]

if you're premde you can sometimes drop IW

[hazy breach]

Not during cds

[sly shore]

and it's every pack

[near rivet]

if playing tfd it could be an actual win compared to default ST build

[hazy breach]

But assa isnt really a cd spec

[strange chasm]

NW sub goes hard

[leaden prairie]

NW outlaw goes hard

[hazy breach]

Third boss big outlaw fight fr fr

[sly shore]

[leaden prairie]

[hazy breach]

Not entirely sure how to play the last boss as sub

[leaden prairie]

always hold and just sned on shield

[hazy breach]

ye thats what i do

[leaden prairie]

and snice you always hold you can send smally on add

[hazy breach]

But then i wont have 2x for blades

[leaden prairie]

otherwise you die

[hazy breach]

And it feels bad

[leaden prairie]

you knida have to kill shields tho

[hazy breach]

ye

Ik

[leaden prairie]

in high keys its a big gg

but if you have other up

[hazy breach]

Hence the "thats what ive been doing"

[leaden prairie]

you can greed maybe

[vestal escarp]

just extend

[wild hornet]

For the opener, Shadow blades was used after I apply max rupture with sdance plus symbol before i start cycling sstrike+evi right?

[vestal escarp]

never rup with dance

[near rivet]

maybe take queens mandate just for add on last boss on NW kek

very few times i managed to snap the boss add upwards

and rest of the party killed him

[wild hornet]

Wouldnt it make sense if im out of stealth and i have both charges

To like do sdance into a sstrike for combo points or to gap close

Without wasting vanish

[hazy breach]

vanish does nothing

Dance is your big damage window

Applying rupture during dance is a wasted global you couldve used eviscerate on instead

Apply ruptures before or after dance

[wild hornet]

So just symbol before rupture and then sdance sblades into strike evi strike evi

And then a vanish for another strike before blades runs out

[hazy breach]

No, you dont want to symbols before rupture either

Becuase of supercharger

[wild hornet]

Weird, im either blind or the simc sim did exactly that

[hazy breach]

And you dont want to vanish during blades either

Oh mb i read after

Ye rupture before symbols

[near rivet]

its okay to rupture with supercharger if you used symbols 20 seconds before pull

[hazy breach]

But all vanish does is give you premed so you dont want to cast it during blades, as youre already getting full cp from a builder

[wild hornet]

So its fine to bs evi instead of vanish strike evi

(except if i have no shadowstep and need to gap close?)

[hazy breach]

No its strike>flag>evis>vanish>rupture>dance+symbols>strike>sectech>blades

Dont need to blades earlier as you have premed to fill your cp anyway

[novel plaza]

Ideally when in that sequence do I use my transmitter ?

[hazy breach]

Ideall you should proc when you press blades

But its fine for it to be +-2 seconds

I'd recommend to use it with flag, but whatever floats your boat

[novel plaza]

I’d prefer to macro flag with transmitter haha

[wild hornet]

Oh ur right i kinda forgot to spec into flag yesterday

Is it still mandatory in tww even

Oh also - wouldnt it make sense to blades before sectec?

[woeful egret]

Am I just bad sin rogue? I perform better as sub in most cases

[novel plaza]

in what way?

[left ledge]

Flag is our strongest cd

[woeful egret]

I just do more dmg and feel I have alot more utility

[wild hornet]

No shadow dance really feels bad huh

[left ledge]

No, when going into cooldowns always blades after your opening sectec, blades doesn’t even work with sectec

[novel plaza]

Some bosses I think sub do better on than sin and vice versa

[woeful egret]

I did better on queen as sub for sure

[novel plaza]

Yeah

[woeful egret]

I'm kinda feeling silken as sub too, I really dislike assa st by alot

I know it's a cleave fight, but still feels pretty much st

[wild hornet]

Oh also i checked - some talent builds dont use it

[hazy breach]

Literally every build uses it

It would be like not speccing shadow blades

Or sectech

Maybe pvp has cooked up something without it, but thats because finishers are severely nerfed there #pvp

[void hound]

they seem to be about the same

[woeful egret]

they use flag in pvp too, especially since the other one was removed

what was it? the old ardenweld hall ability

[molten citrus]

literally every build uses it

[hazy breach]

[molten citrus]

[woeful egret]

back to back evis during burst is too juicy

[tidal python]

Today I realised we're literally the least popular dps spec in the game by number of parses

Proud of you guys

[keen dome]

I'm doing my part with my terrible parses.

[woeful egret]

I joined a heroic guild recently and they were shocked I was sub

[keen dome]

Sub is pretty comfy in heroic content.

[woeful egret]

we'll see how far I can play it into mythic

[nimble burrow]

i made us worse

[jaunty umbra]

If only I could get a transmitter to play sub

[nimble burrow]

[keen dome]

🫡

[copper heron]

guys assuming there is no prio target, is it more dmg to press powder or evis with nimble flurry / flawless form?

[woeful egret]

I think it's like 12+ targets for powder

[copper heron]

means the higher the target count the more value powder gets right?

[woeful egret]

onlhy after that high number

[copper heron]

ok thanks

[leaden prairie]

no wae its not outla w anymore

[void hound]

found the issue

[alpine wraith]

need more crits

outlaw had almost double the sub ones for a while nice to see we are getting closer

[wild hornet]

I think i know what the reason is

Cough coup bug

[alpine wraith]

not really it was from before too

[woeful egret]

coup almost gets me killed all the time

[vale pine]

subtlety is still the least played dps spec in the game

if it gets more players its simply because of tuning

[woeful egret]

it it played less than feral?

[vale pine]

yes

[wild hornet]

Ive barely seen any sub rogues though

But fuck the meta

Im playing retri and sub

[vale pine]

least palyed dps means less than survival, ww monk, feral druid and other not that popular melees

[woeful egret]

sub and ww monk here, I like pain 😛

[wild hornet]

Survival isnt as bad as it used to be last season though

[woeful egret]

classes are too fun, blizz devs don't want you to have fun AND be good

[vale pine]

subtlety is fun

[vale pine]

it has some shortcommings

and a steep learning curve

but its fun

[wild hornet]

Assa feels like a sleeper ngl

Im gonna try to play mplus with sub

[woeful egret]

only issue I have with sub is doing bad dmg knowing if I symbols dance it's a waste because pull is almost dead

[wild hornet]

Ss and bp macro

[woeful egret]

solo playing sub runs into that issue alot, wet noodle till dance then you kill everything in 2 globals

[remote shuttle]

Ye, no matter the meta, we r the star of the stage cuz we dancing like gods

[vale pine]

assassination is the most popular rogue spec and is currently absolute meta

nothing sleeper about assa

[wild hornet]

I tried to play assa cuz i never touched it in my life

[vale pine]

it also has close to no shortcommings

[wild hornet]

And it was so fucking boring

Compared to sub

By sleeper i meant enjoyment of gameplay

Im not saying its bad

[vale pine]

its good ye

[wild hornet]

Personally assa feels like melee affli

[woeful egret]

I feel like ferla feels like melee affli, as sin you spam envenom way too much to feel that way imo

[vale pine]

it plays similar to how it always played

for me not exciting

[wild hornet]

Yeah i just never played assa in my life

[vale pine]

but it has 4-8x the palyers who love it

[wild hornet]

I gave it a try last week

[vale pine]

partly for historical reasons

like e.g. it being the absolute simplest and best tuned for 2 whole xpacs for raiding

i don't argue with fun, because it appeals to many players

[wild hornet]

Yeah it is the easiest rogue spec, kinda why frost is also up there

[vale pine]

to the point people argue its the best designed rogue spec

as the main reason

i like subtlety more, and i would love for it to get more non typical updates

new talents replacing the rly bad ones for example

[wild hornet]

Yeah simplicity drives people to it

Thats why top played class is retri

[vale pine]

instead of just trying to low effort reowrk them

retri has very much a sub dps cycle

or well had

[wild hornet]

Still has

[vale pine]

its now too simplified

[wild hornet]

Besides the fact u have auto wings

Just think of it as a woa macro

But a talent

[wild hornet]

Im surprised nothing overtook it in playability yet

[vale pine]

tuning is rly good for it

blizz saw the success

[wild hornet]

Hopping between two hero talents between patchnotes was kinda annoying

[vale pine]

and made sure the players they onboarded to ret would stay happy

[wild hornet]

Im just not happy that they fucked the generator cooldowns

Kinda afk during bl

[vale pine]

my opinion without having played it extensively

they overdid the simplification

it now gets into the therectory of boring too much

[wild hornet]

I think they tried to compensate for automating wings with the generator cd increase

[vale pine]

autmating wings takes away a exciting button press

[wild hornet]

Like you have auto wings but gotta manage generators tad bit better

Else you are afk for more than 3 seconds

[wild hornet]

Not a mandatory talent though

Can still do just as good by speccing into either side of the tree

[vale pine]

its the best iirc atm

and as such people will play it the most

[wild hornet]

It is the best but you can get away with manual

[vale pine]

but correct me on this

because my ret experience is rly limited

[wild hornet]

At least in what i experimented with manual wings

It is favored also due to you getting it sometimes from spenders

Which is more wing uptime

But i feel like its more of a QoL for dmg than being fully mandatory

[wild hornet]

Tbh 10 minutes is enough to understand whats going on w ret

The rest of the changes are kinda mediocre

[vale pine]

haha, i just do like to be transparent about my knowlage

so if i have only played/tested something a bit on ptr/beta i will state this

[wild hornet]

Yeah thats fair, i forgot a lot about sub and trying to relearn it cuz its mad fun

But yeah radiant glory is somewhat mandatory but you should be able to get away with manual wings plus a point for either more st/aoe or tad bit bigger burst

I was not the biggest fan of it but im a bitch for dps so i got used to it

Plus bonus wings during downtime outside of the big (30 sec) cds is decent for dmg uptime aswell

[vale pine]

ret is just very nice that it allows people that typcially struggle with rotations

[lucid jackal]

I'm a ret mastermind what's up

[vale pine]

to compete very well with others on the meter, giving more people a chance to participate in higehr content

[wild hornet]

Yeah true, you can mash random keys and still do dmg

[wild hornet]

Im speaking blasphemy

[vale pine]

swinging a holy katana

[wild hornet]

Feeding the ret agenda

[wild hornet]

From what i saw, ret gets outperformed only by s tier classes with good rotational gameplay

Judging from the mplus / raids ive done

[lucid jackal]

Ret is very strong and fairly simple to get most of your damage

Ret is an s tier melee in raid

[wild hornet]

Tell that to the people that keep declining me in keys

[vale pine]

you have a lower skill cealing, but your baseline is extremely high

[wild hornet]

Havent checked tierlists

Only last time when it was c tier

[lucid jackal]

I also don't look at tier lists

I play the video game and make judgement calls from ghere

[vale pine]

ret is upper 1/3 of the statistics iirc

which you could say is the strong dps group

i don't like tier lists, so i would just go with:
Strong / Good / Bad

[steel heart]

And can play 3 different roles ….

[wild hornet]

True that

I offheal and still do damage

[vale pine]

holy has been constantly nerfed and changed since s2 DF

[wild hornet]

(fuck you siege)

[woeful egret]

ret has uncapped aoe too I think

[vale pine]

i don't know how popular or strong it is atm

[woeful egret]

kinda nuts in m+

[wild hornet]

Just reduced beyound 5 but yes its uncapped

Especially when u get truths wake on 10 plus targets

[lucid jackal]

Uncapped aoe just doesn't really matter much lol

[wild hornet]

Say that to the enhancements

[lucid jackal]

Ret off healing also kinda sucks now

[wild hornet]

Wdym

Wog just got nuffed

Buffed

[lucid jackal]

When

[wild hornet]

Check patchnoties

[lucid jackal]

Well also u can also buff something and it's still bad

And also it does cost holy power, which is damage

[wild hornet]

True, but u can also spam fol at 10 crusader stacks

Since u don't rly use mana

[woeful egret]

I just know that this week's affix feels horrible on rogue

I hate cloaking it everytime

[wild hornet]

It feels good

[lucid jackal]

"you can spam FOL"

[wild hornet]

I can dispell myself and a rogue

[wild hornet]

Well if ur healer is choking for example yesterday on my boralus

I had to offheal

I was at baseline 700k dps

Else we would've bricked the key

So its very situational but useful when needed

[edgy zenith]

anyone have some Court tips? where do I send defensives? when collecting balls or?

[lucid jackal]

Whenever u feel scared

[edgy zenith]

when is scary

[sly shore]

I had a rsham who didn't go poison cleanse totem say that I should use iron stomach to remove the affix from myself

that was a good one

[lucid jackal]

Idk nothing on the fight is really scary

It's a script boss, the damage feels non exist ant

[edgy zenith]

kk

if I die, I blame you

🙂

[wild hornet]

[sly shore]

yeah an extra 300k healing

on a 5M heal requirement

[wild hornet]

I feel like im brought in groups solely to dispell rogues

[sly shore]

instead of 1.2M healing it's 1.5M

[wild hornet]

What level key is it

[sly shore]

it was only an 11

[wild hornet]

Yeah but what 11

If its mists its whatever

[sly shore]

necrotic wake

[wild hornet]

Same thing

Just /ignore and next key

[sly shore]

yeah that's what I did

I couldn't believe what I was reading

how does someone read iron stomach

[wild hornet]

Cant argue someone reading dispells from one image of a youtuber