Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
#subtlety
wicked joltBOT
strange chasm
I thought sin was still higher
hazy breach
Well i wasnt factoring in the assa nerf
ornate current
So sin should be 1531 and DS 1532 lol
hazy breach
Sub is good 
ornate current
Rhis is with the bugfix
half comet
is this updated on !fuu?
ornate current
Im playing sub anyways just wann a cope
vestal escarp
more cps more sod more dmg
hazy breach
Patch is good, but also the supercharger bugs got fixed
lilac stag
shadow dmg supercharger
lilac stag
cT is too strong but what do I know
wind canopy
Damn, we got content scath now
vestal escarp
spatter is too strong, Ct is good imo
lilac stag
the fact you barely spread rupture on its own in multi target is an issue to me for a dot spec
vestal escarp
hmm but scent has the lead
balmy notch
hi quick question im finding some probably outdated info on using backstab and even shuriken storm and black powder during dance to trigger more danse macabre, im assuming this is df stuff and we just go on about our rotation in dance as normal?
vestal escarp
and if scent says 5 the sin rog obeys
vestal escarp
your cps turn blue
strange chasm
So like both sub and sin are now perfectly fine in raid. @hazy breach You still playing sin or sub now?
vestal escarp
well for now the only way to get a sod buff would be to press sod so you could track sod buff appearance
fair stump
Does updating a WA override the changes we've done to it?
hidden isle
Ya ima just try cl i don't I'll even notice the lag
I'm sure something shows
But ya tracking sod might be good enough anyway
hidden isle
Yea true
hazy breach
So like both sub and sin are now perfectly fine in raid. <@212854714197344256> Y...
Im playing sub for queen
vestal escarp
So like both sub and sin are now perfectly fine in raid. <@212854714197344256> Y...
mind that if sin and sub sim close now it's at patchwerk
hidden isle
Just now swapping to sub so idk ill prbly just dl some was
hazy breach
probably even sub on those two tbf, just vibing
Transmitter toy procced on dummies 
(as in the rare that drops it procced)
pliant topaz
probably even sub on those two tbf, just vibing
okay real question though. does singular focus double dip on damage amps
pliant topaz
how does it work on something like sikran double burn ?
like it does more damage to the main target because the other target is taking also 100% more damage? and then it doubles that damage?
not sikran
silken
pliant topaz
im curious might check some logs actually
bleak wind
im just on some copium that we get some bug fixes with what realz said
hazy breach
We did get supercharger fixed atleast
bleak wind
ye but that was a temporary thing, doesn't count
strange chasm
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
hazy breach
ye but that was a temporary thing, doesn't count
Yesnt, the shadowed finisher part being bugged was there for all of ptr and the first day
Its like a +1% gain up from that since it works now
bleak wind
I guess thats true
near rivet
it feels like a step closer to fix DN - shadowed finishers interaction
woeful egret
!sod
wicked joltBOT
Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs
lucid jackal
!bugs
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue
plain zephyr
Does anyone use Luxthos' weak aura pack? It doesn't appear to track Symbols of Death with the three charges change. Does anyone know if that's going to be updated?
When I use SoD. It just shows it on CD and grayed out.
lucid jackal
If u have any weakaura skills u could just make Ur own
lunar galleon
I use that pack but I'm not good enough to track SoD so I just use the above cast sequence macro to bind it to my other CDs
Sometimes they hide additional WAs in the pack though, that you can just turn on
I'm not at my computer right now or I'd take a look, apologies
golden totem
Does anyone use Luxthos' weak aura pack? It doesn't appear to track Symbols of ...
Do you have the last update? I do have the 3 stacks using Luxthos was
plain zephyr
Okay. I'll try to update again
plain zephyr
Do you have the last update? I do have the 3 stacks using Luxthos was
That worked. Thanks
fair stump
Does updating the WA override the changes we've done to it?
plain zephyr
I deleted the old one and installed the new one. So I did have to re-do my changes. So I'm not sure
golden totem
Does updating the WA override the changes we've done to it?
When you update you have check boxes with what you wanna over write or not.
But usually every now and then it is advised to do a full remove and resinstal for big weakaura packs
strange chasm
@pliant topaz you played sub in keys yet? very pog?
strange chasm
I think sin silence is stilljust kinda op
weary kite
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
pliant topaz
I think sin silence is stilljust kinda op
it also does like 600-700k more overall
plain zephyr
Do we still use Blubbling Wax?
golden totem
Yes on 1 weapon
tribal blade
damn blizz is actually starting to be more on top of sub stuff
wispy bolt
!wa
tribal blade
although it's kind of weird they do these stealth bug fixes w/o saying anything
pastel rampart
if they announce the fix that would be admitting they made the bug in the first place :^)
tribal blade
i dunno i feel like they would want to be more vocal about it
because it gives the impression "we see and hear you and are doing something to help"
not complaining at all, i just thought the optics looks so much better when you announce stuff
ornate current
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
old socket
any word on the new trinkets or gear from brd or?
hazy breach
They all stink
hazy breach
although it's kind of weird they do these stealth bug fixes w/o saying anything
We are just too hot on the ball
tribal blade
<https://www.wowhead.com/news/patch-11-0-5-hotfixes-for-oct-25th-more-class-bug-...
oh i eat my words haha
and true, you guys are ON TOP of shit in here
@pliant topaz did i just see you queueing your key
pliant topaz
13 NW? yea
pliant topaz
ty ty
plush roost
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
crisp pond
Didn’t they fix it earlier
hazy breach
and true, you guys are ON TOP of shit in here
Theres a bot that recognizes whenever blizzard pushes any updates to spelldata stuff. Bug fixes are often hard to tell from the spell data but like today we saw evis getting something changed we can just go ingame and try it out to see if it was fixed
hazy breach
Didn’t they fix it earlier
Yes, thats what the post is about
tribal blade
Theres a bot that recognizes whenever blizzard pushes any updates to spelldata s...
oh that's actually really cool
didn't know that
crisp pond
What was making Evis hit so much harder then it does even after being fixed the other day
I was hitting 3mil on full pvp enemy’s
In arena
tribal blade
oh my god whispyrs posts are amazing
hazy breach
He loves assa being fotm
lilac stag
Did they lose what 1% game over
crisp pond
@hazy breach lol
tribal blade
i posted his latest thing in my guild disc
lilac stag
tribal blade
i love it
crisp pond
tribal blade
i'm playing the standard wowhead sin M+ build but i dropped x1 supercharger for x1 subterfuge
because i like having a bit more time to spread
crisp pond
I’m asking why this was happening because I didn’t see anything bugging me to hit this hard but I lost def was doing more then now
tribal blade
just in case
lilac stag
because i like having a bit more time to spread
Play sub you coward
tribal blade
Play sub you coward
but then i have to trick people to inviting me 😦
lilac stag
nah
tribal blade
actually let me see what sub feels like on dummies with supercharger fix
lilac stag
The damage when it’s important is crazy good
we 1 phased first boss of mists.
shit just melted
tribal blade
yeah sounds about right
lilac stag
Most of the pugs I end up in are 1.6-2 phase
tribal blade
ok can't actually test on the dummies
because the lag on it is unreal
losing globals and spell queueing stuff to hell
tribal blade
Most of the pugs I end up in are 1.6-2 phase
did a 3 phase in a 13 earlier
because the fdk was doing like 1.3 mil
this group was full of special people though
nobody got the seed after 1st boss
and then when stuff got pulled through the maze tank didn't pick up aggro and 2 of us died immediately
and then in maze tank literally sits the dragon in the heal circle and it almost full heals
hazy breach
ok can't actually test on the dummies
Stop being in dornogal
Stuff like blades and nimble aint working correctly there anyway, go to orgrimmar or stormwind
tribal blade
Stuff like blades and nimble aint working correctly there anyway, go to orgrimma...
now i feel stupid
hazy breach
So did i when i realized the 40% nimble stuff was only in dornogal and open world stuff 
For some reason game works differently there than in instances, phenomenal design
tribal blade
wonderful
lilac stag
now i feel stupid
Ironically. Couldn’t get you to swap to 
when 
was 💩. now can’t get you to swap back when it’s 
smhmh
tribal blade
Ironically. Couldn’t get you to swap to <:sin:433007826840059916> when <:sub:433...
haha fair point
although i think i might have unironically gotten myself kicked from a group for testing sub on the dummies
lilac stag
Haha
tribal blade
queued into a 13 mists, i swap to sub to smack the dummies and then he disbands the group
barren plume
cloak of shadows ignores the sikran blow up shit right? where she has the purple swirl around her and has a knock back
strange chasm
Are the ass rogue bug fixes meme nerfs or actually a nerf
hazy breach
cloak of shadows ignores the sikran blow up shit right? where she has the purple...
Only the first second of cloak
hazy breach
Are the ass rogue bug fixes meme nerfs or actually a nerf
Small nerf
Kingsbane had 244% crit damage instead of 220% with lethality specced, so kingsbane crits were doing ~10% more damage then they shouldve
strange chasm
Does this make sub stonks go through the roof
hazy breach
Assa getting nerfed by like 1% doesnt make sub stonks through the roof no
But sub is good
pliant topaz
sub is great not just good
lilac stag
queued into a 13 mists, i swap to sub to smack the dummies and then he disbands ...
Unironically. Speedshroud is kinda goated in dawn breaker at the start. Zoom zoom.
hazy breach
sub is great not just good
Might need to pick up my arms again
+10% seems pretty god damned juicy
pliant topaz
yeha ngl that is uh big big buff
they saw critcakes last video
felt bad
turbo buffed warrior
hazy breach
They were downbad on logs too
Arms was especially rough because they kept nerfing fury
But collateral nerfed arms
pliant topaz
yeah that was really dumb actually i lowkey felt bad
pliant topaz
not trolling
tribal blade
oh my god this shit does feel a million times better
strange chasm
I feel like ST on bosses for ass kinda stinks in keys
Whereas sub has to SLAM bosses
tribal blade
yeah you can use sub to absolutely nuke bosses for sure
hazy breach
Sub demolishes bosses ye
lilac stag
Sub doesn’t have to. It does slam.
lilac stag
sub back to being really lit at killing important shit
hazy breach
I still find it odd how sub and outlaw have several talents that make them more tanky yet the only thing assa gets is twice as much leech from leeching poison
Obv iron wire is strong for keys but its still weird
lilac stag
glass cannon
tribal blade
it's incredible to hit a supercharger coup
and watch the cd of sectec get cut in almost half immediately
the next thing i want to see sub get is less shitty energy outside of dance
stone sedge
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
tribal blade
its an 11 now <:Surebud:1083827360815665235> pugging is fun
noooo
just timed a 13 SV 🙂
pliant topaz
oh dude thats a big one nice
im legit not getting in keys i gott apush my own and its just aids
vagrant fulcrum
Obv iron wire is strong for keys but its still weird
sin is squishier than sub / ol
but I don't think it matters, people just play it cus easier / more damage
tribal blade
im legit not getting in keys i gott apush my own and its just aids
yeah... it's massive pain
tawdry geyser
has anyone else had their coup de grace become permanent after killing the add on last boss NW? just happened to me now, no clue how I managed it lol
warm marlin
steel horizon
permanent as in its stuck on 4 stacks but wont proc? or permanent as in you just keep using coup?
tawdry geyser
it seemed like I just kept using coup, buffs was showing 4 stacks the whole time after I flew back up top
vagrant fulcrum
has anyone else had their coup de grace become permanent after killing the add o...
well well well
steel horizon
it could jsut be the bug where its stuck on 4 stacks but you keep using evis
cus they fixed the one that you're talking about
tawdry geyser
yeah it may have just been evis, either way was super weird, hadnt run into it before lol
wispy bolt
Well I’ll be damned, we are in an okay place
round latch
rotten feels increadibly smooth btw
idk,i think melee has no spot in ''higher'' keys
but dont rly push that high
round latch
im pretty sure ele does more dmg
vagrant fulcrum
ele just has flashier max burst on mass pulls
vagrant fulcrum
im pretty sure ele does more dmg
not overall
just on really big pulls
biggest gap is in st, enh st is unhinged in dungeons
round latch
just on really big pulls
idk man,those dungeons end in like 6-7 pulls anyway
vagrant fulcrum
ele is weak
vagrant fulcrum
idk man,those dungeons end in like 6-7 pulls anyway
shaman friend of mine did 1.4 on mistcaller in mists 12
im around 1m as sin
granted he got pi but still, 1.4 on st with target switching and downtime is crazy
round latch
im around 1m as sin
i do 1mil+ on my mage
strange chasm
I feel like my ST in dung as sin is kinda lacklustre
vagrant fulcrum
I feel like my ST in dung as sin is kinda lacklustre
I'd say sin st is pretty average
all things considered
vagrant fulcrum
we 4 manned last boss, mage had to go
he was on like 1.3, I forgot what I did
but it was lower
round latch
mage overall isnt that high yeah
vagrant fulcrum
consistently can't compete in dungeon st
round latch
but has prio,specially arcane
round latch
yup its sub for shamans
strange chasm
I think sub is pre decent tbh in keys
round latch
cool cool
round latch
something to consider,yeah
vagrant fulcrum
but yeah it's pretty much the only spec I can't consistently beat on overall
it's v close for sure
but I'd say pre-nerf enh is better than sin for key speed
and that's only my friend, not random pug enh, they normally suck
warm aspen
11s are getting to the point where i cant send cds when they come up
bcuz mobs are too squishy
round latch
im sending on cd idc
vagrant fulcrum
there is no point to push above 10s tbh
I agree, I always get dragged into 12s with friends who want them and I hate every time a wipe happens and everyone leaves and I get no weekly
round latch
but its mostly a route issue and how tanks execute it
warm aspen
but yeah it kinda sucks that in high end m+ ur literally just playing the base dungeon
with no real mechanic
warm aspen
and then each boss fight is like 10 years long
warm aspen
how in the fuck have i now failed 3 13 mists
how did u even time the 12s in pugs lol
interrupts so hard for me
tribal blade
how did u even time the 12s in pugs lol
mists is pretty free so long as you do the dungeon right
warm aspen
ah i see
candid field
you guys find people for your pugs? been waiting for a tank for 15+min
round latch
and timed the first 13 SV i tried
what was the group on that run fam?
warm aspen
12 keys fill up surprisingly fast tbh
tribal blade
what was the group on that run fam?
sin/enhance/prot pal/rsham/fdk
tribal blade
12 keys fill up surprisingly fast tbh
there are a fuckton of people signing up for 12s
because 11s are easy to time
candid field
no one signs up for 10s
tribal blade
and then you hit 12 and it becomes a wall
round latch
sin/enhance/prot pal/rsham/fdk
warm aspen
yeah i felt it in that gb
round latch
shaman is everywhere this season yup
vagrant fulcrum
after what has happened to them for so long
ehhhh
vagrant fulcrum
ok?
tribal blade
and so has rsham too
vagrant fulcrum
I can't remember rasz
in keys it has been a mixed bag yeah
I do remember ele having some really good performance in keys in sl
tribal blade
also shammy tuning and attention was truly abyssmal for the longest time
they just got flat aura buffs any time they were struggling with 0 thought
vagrant fulcrum
the no raidbuff / weak defensives was bad for sure
tribal blade
and yeah their survivability was so bad
like to the point where during S3 DF my friend wouldn't invite bond to keys even though he's the best ele in the world
just because their living was sus
but you're right, enhance has had some very good performance in raid
thick field
is sub in a decent place right now for both raid and m+? just coming back and seeing where its at
vagrant fulcrum
is sub in a decent place right now for both raid and m+? just coming back and se...
I'd say it's acceptable yeah
it's just overshadowed by assassination for aoe
thick field
Where would you rank it against a ww monk right now? just wondering numbers wise. im playing ww and i feel weak
vagrant fulcrum
it's deffo better than ww imo
thick field
okay gotcha. is playstyle fun/has it changed much in feeling? i played back at dragonflight s1
vagrant fulcrum
it's changed a lot since then
you're still pressing the same buttons but they reworked shadowblades and the pace of the spec
it's a lot slower than back then
you do less damage in dance / outside of dance but a lot more damage in blades + flag
shadowcraft makes it so shadow techniques can instantly refill your combo points, so you can end up going finisher > finisher when in cds
best advice I'd give is just try it
steel horizon
unless you're running RS of course. then your refund comes 1 second after you use your generator
that shit is driving me nuts lol
plain zephyr
Is Mad Queens only good for Deathstalker?
warm aspen
unless you're running RS of course. then your refund comes 1 second after you u...
OOOOH so that's what that was lmao
i thought we still had old shadow technique or something xD
sitting there randomly getting a cp out of thin air
steel horizon
yea its infuriating
tribal blade
Is Mad Queens only good for Deathstalker?
good for trickster too
it's basically good for almost everyone for ST damage
because it hits like a truck
plain zephyr
Alright, thanks
steel horizon
somehow i still have scroll of momentum coming up on top for my 2nd trinket lol
delves op
tulip token
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
tulip token
Is the main hand dagger for sub supposed to be that pvp wep?
in the sim on that spreadsheet
tribal blade
when you're known in the key pushing world
half galleon
when you're known in the key pushing world
Does he know you are gonna change spec right before he puts in the key
unreal nebula
guys, whats even dodgeable with evasion on this season of M+? I died to boralus 1'st boss AOE which i was certain i was going to dodge
dawn trellis
the magic breath from 1st boss of nw
supple verge
!bugs
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue
clear delta
Does subtlety still need cd spreadsheets now that shadowdust is gone? Hoping the spec is easier to play for my smooth brain
vagrant fulcrum
Does subtlety still need cd spreadsheets now that shadowdust is gone? Hoping the...
Nah it’s just a hard 90s cd on everything relevant now
tribal blade
guys, whats even dodgeable with evasion on this season of M+? I died to boralus ...
don't think there's much except 1st boss NW
so you can use it for the DR
half comet
don't think there's much except 1st boss NW
u can dodge the belch with evasion?
tribal blade
u can dodge the belch with evasion?
yes
cloak is trickier to use, it only works on the last ~1 second of the cast
that thing is weird
pliant topaz
thats what he meant yea
thick field
am i reading the guide wrong or are you hardly using black powder anymore?
thick field
seems trickster is the way to go right now too right?
thick field
hhow is evisc better tha black powder in like 8 target aoe?
alpine wraith
some changes some fixes
because of nimble flurry
our evis hit hard
then cleave
thick field
damn yeah i see thhat now okay thanks. yeah i gotta go though and read all these new talents
how bad is it to macro shadow blades with flag?
alpine wraith
what order hall ehehe
warm aspen
ah true, first rule of fight club
pliant topaz
when would you tho
+12 targets
tribal blade
the entire spec would just work way better wiht it gone
tribal blade
it would be a 2 for 1
if they just baked shadowed finishers damage into regular finishers
they would remove the buggy interactions
and our damage would be a lot less rng
and also we could BP while using trickster
tribal blade
as in no clone damage?
alpine wraith
yea fuck clones they dont even exist
tribal blade
it would make it work better for sure
that's another buggy interaction they could get rid of
i feel like all evis, bp and sectec damage should be shadow too
they could also turn FW back into what it used to be
you only get it during dance
alpine wraith
also this 30% arpen is ludicrous
young heart
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
keen dome
yea fuck clones they dont even exist
give it the contract animation, all damage in the single first hit
delicate ridge
You could always keep them for animation/theme sake but yea having sectech dmg not tied to pets would be great
fair anchor
we send eviscerate with 3+ CP if we have a supercharger stack right ? or we have to go 6
spark tusk
Sub vibes are good rn yah? I’ve heard good things
keen dome
Very
tribal blade
Sub vibes are good rn yah? I’ve heard good things
being able to dance on sectec's cd feels really good
keen dome
In my opinion, anyway.
spark tusk
Big sectecs big vibes
alpine wraith
we send eviscerate with 3+ CP if we have a supercharger stack right ? or we have...
6+
fair anchor
ok we just ignore SC then, thanks
keen dome
being able to dance on sectec's cd feels really good
I was thinking about it, but.. I think it actually makes it flow way better for me, mentally.
alpine wraith
it gives more dmg and it is cool
keen dome
Also Evis does more damage which in turn is nice for trickster. Sub stonks are UP
tribal blade
I was thinking about it, but.. I think it actually makes it flow *way* better fo...
yes being able to actually use sectec as intended with cdr makes a lot more sense now
keen dome
Yeah
tribal blade
instead of just ignoring sectec's cd until symbols was ready
keen dome
Hell yeah, Bac, you blasting
spark tusk
Has it been challenging to predict your sod and dance charges for blades?
nimble burrow
how do i delete those things?
keen dome
It feels like it all comes up a lot more naturally now (unless it goes on)
keen dome
Longer the fight goes, it does tend to get more awkward. But you have more flexibility now, I feel.
golden totem
Quite the opposite of dust but still good vibes
keen dome
Also, The Rotten being actually good at buffing BUILDERS versus what PV / LD do.
tribal blade
yeah having multiple symbols charges makes everything better
more rotten
more sectec
more 2+4pc
keen dome
Yeah
I still think Rotten should be a bit higher up - it doesn't feel capstone but instead is doing what PV / LD do way better and more 'fun' but. Really good.
spark tusk
I think I’m almost out of the depths of hell that is envenom WAs and need to get to work on understanding sub enough to make updates
keen dome
Yee. The 'ol vigor situation. I would like more energy outside of CD's 'cos it makes doing more consistent damage better, but the Symbols situation does help us maintain more ances, I feel.
spark tusk
Even though I think the only thing I can think of is a thing that says what your sod/dance charges will be at blades
At current state
Obv dance cdr makes it complicated
tribal blade
that would be a good WA
spark tusk
Need to mess around with it, shouldn’t be too hard
tribal blade
something that basically warned you when you have to full stop sending dance+symbols
before next cd set
spark tusk
And actually play the damn game
spark tusk
something that basically warned you when you have to full stop sending dance+sym...
Yeah that’s the idea
tribal blade
Yeah that’s the idea
i like it
keen dome
I need to fix my Superchager WA. Right now it's just overlaying the first 4 combies with chagred borders but it gets weird if i have more than 4.
spark tusk
Builds look nearly identical just swapping sf and Imp storm
keen dome
Ye
keen dome
Hm, for some reason my very hacky Supercharger solution is broken. I can't imagine why..
spark tusk
I don’t understand the build in version
I just did it fully custom, there’s a single event you can track
keen dome
I was using a pretty basic "If charged combo 1 = 1 then blue border" and now it isn't working.
keen dome
That's really helpful, though. Thanks! I will.
Is how I want it to look if a Combie is in the anime zone.
spark tusk
Returns a table of points, really you just need the count of the array
spark tusk
Mmhm
keen dome
I'm not sure I need to even track it 'cos I know if i symbols, I get 2.
It's so consistent that it's easy to just muscle memory.
But it felt like a fun thing to setup.
spark tusk
Yeah I didn’t spend much time on it because it doesn’t seem like tracking it matters much
At least for sin it doesn’t
It’s just more dam
More cdr etc
keen dome
For Sub, I believe we ideally want to always use one for SecTec for BIG BLAST (and I assume Coup if possible) but ye
It's something that's so consistent you can just rotation rule around it to always hit it properly.
hybrid dew
Hey just checking in it’s been like 3 weeks since I played are we still bad in M+?
keen dome
We're considerably better, but not as strong as Assa or other 'meta' picks. I'd personally say Sub is absolutely playable to higher levels now though.
hybrid dew
Mind if I asked what exactly changed? Last I played it was still trickster single targ rotation with bp without flawless, is that still the case?
spark tusk
Sub is probably a monster on bosses given that you barely have to change anything from your raid build
keen dome
We gained a new talent in place of Shadowdust, which gave us +1 Symbol charge per point. So we can now have 3 Symbols of death. There was also a rework to Echoing Reprimand which made it a passive called Supercharger. When we Symbols, we gain 3 anima-charged combie points that buff our next finisher by +3 combies.
Also Shadowblades is now 1:30 cooldown instead of 2:00, but lasts 16 seconds instead of 20. Flagellation is still 1:30. So they natrually align now.
Trickster is probably still best for keys, too. Nimble flurry does a lot, esp as coup de grace now properly gives us CDR. It actually feels really nice to play with all the other changes on top of it.
keen dome
Sub is probably a monster on bosses given that you barely have to change anythin...
Ye, I've been hitting 4 - 5m DPS on bosses in 8 keys.
I'd recommend having a look at the 11.0.5 WoWhead guide, @hybrid dew 'cos it's an excellent write-up of it all. But if you wanna play Sub, it's a good time for it imo.
sinful sluice
I have question regarding using symbol pre-pull. Is supercharge permanent? If not, when will be the best timing to use it pre-pull?
alpine wraith
yes it is perma
you use as you res
but you can also use it if prepull is at least 17
so you also get rotten on 2 strikes
merry agate
@alpine wraith just watched your video at work... improved sht and first dance still interchangeble with RS and shadowfocus? Even on trickster? Want to Experiment 🤔
alpine wraith
kinda first dance gets weaker as the fight gets longer
but it is quite competitive below 5 mins
but not shadow focus
that one is better for st and in another gate
it goes vs improv shuriken storm
the contenders for things are for trickster improv sht PE RS and first dance/gloomblade
clever delta
Is the trisckter for st way to go?
merry agate
Gloomblade 🤔 give it a little personal note with minimal loss 
alpine wraith
trickster and deathstalker are quite close
keen dome
Gloomblade, my beloved.. Someday you will be baseline. And that day will go down in history.
keen dome
hell yeah
merry agate
So unseen blade parry protection for whole raid?
Read about it one time nut was only speculation
keen dome
Yeah, seems so. Bit of a strange one. I assume it'll get fixed but I imagine it's low priority.
bronze turret
It works for everyone?
Is fazed active for everyone too then?
Would be nuts if everyone just did more dmg
vale pine
It works for everyone?
they didn't flag it correct, so it works for everyone
bronze turret
Fazed?
vale pine
only the parry
bronze turret
Ok
tribal blade
i was chatting with one of the warrs on my raid team
"BOSS PARRIED MY COLOSSUS SMASH"
alpine wraith
ehehe
keen dome
Finally, Sub has a raid buff
vale pine
wdym we have speedshroud too
cloud rover
i was chatting with one of the warrs on my raid team
Is this really true?
With the Parry
The Tooltip says YOUR attacks
keen dome
I assume the damage is rogue only but the parry doesn't have the approrpiate flag
So everyone is getting it
Legit they should just make it work like that. It'd be such a cool QoL buff for the Rogue to bring (Although arguablt you'd then have the issue of trickster being the ONLY raid tree)
cloud rover
OR
keen dome
(And also making Assa unplayable)
cloud rover
Remove parry 
keen dome
Remove parry 🙏
warm aspen
man 12s really are a pain
keen dome
Making Rogues have a debuff they can apply, class-tree side, that removes parry would be kinda lit though
warm aspen
i swear it has to be a run with no mistakes whatsoeevr
can't have a single tank death too, even if u manage to kite the pull and keep it from resetting
tribal blade
i swear it has to be a run with no mistakes whatsoeevr
an issue is as well that the people doing 12s atm are not the best, so overall it's a bit rougher
it sounds unintuitive, but the higher in key level you go sometimes it ends up getting easier because the people are better
warm aspen
i kinda wonder how super high end players feel about high keys changing, from mechanics overload with more rooms for error to something that's pretty much just the base dungeon with 10 times the stats
tribal blade
like it took me weeks to time a 12 SV, and then i timed the first 13 SV i did
tribal blade
i kinda wonder how super high end players feel about high keys changing, from me...
it's better now
much better than before imo
keen dome
I'm not a high end player, but: delete challengers peril because I think it's needlessly punishing (or go with the suggestion of Fuu had, I think, of ramping deaths which would be neat)
tribal blade
the biggest issue i have is challenger's burden is super toxic
keen dome
Yeeee
tribal blade
or w/e it's called yeah
warm aspen
oh yeah that's certainly a thing
keen dome
Burden is 30s, Peril is 15s I think?
But it's effectively taking an already huge punishment of death / wipes. And making it so you WILL brick on deaths
tribal blade
it does promote good gameplay by punishing deaths heavily, but i still don't like it
warm aspen
but also, am i the only one who's kinda sad that we lose the xalatah affix from 12 and on?
it's almost kinda boring to be essentially playing higher tuned m0 lol
tribal blade
it's a very good thing because it means high keys are the same every week
so it completely removes push weeks
and dead push weeks
keen dome
Less needing to adjust to randomness. Focusing more on learning to play the content better. Def a good change, imo.
warm aspen
true
keen dome
Yeah
warm aspen
and i think they did redesign a lot of the older dungeons a bit right
keen dome
I think if they took out Peril and Burden it'd get a lot better.
tribal blade
"oh it's sanguine/bolstering week, literally can't get any IO for 7 days"
tribal blade
"oh it's bursting week, i have to do keys 12 hours a day for 7 days"
warm aspen
LOL
keen dome
Ye
tribal blade
now you can kinda just jump in whenever
the biggest bottleneck is the people you'll be grouping with if you pug
keen dome
I really like the affixes on lower keys, too. They're relatively simple and the buffs are nice to elevate people.
cloud rover
!bug
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue
tribal blade
ngl i don't even know which rotation of the seasonal affix it is this week lol
i haven't done anything below a 12
keen dome
It's the stun orbs.
alpine wraith
yea the blind them aaall
alpine wraith
if there is no mob near yea
you go into whack a mole cheapshot spreee
tab cheapshot tab cheap shot
warm aspen
thats why u go dragon!
warm aspen
altho one thing im REALLY upset about, how come dragons cant do what the boomkins do!
wing flaps!
tribal blade
honestly thank god you don't have that cc affix in 12s and higher
warm aspen
well yeah 12s and higher u rly need every cc lmao
BUT
would i get flamed here
if i said my least favorite affix was actually quaking lol
i have trauma with that affix from tol dagor worgen boss
tribal blade
nah there's a reason they removed it from M+
it was a super toxic affix whenever there were situations where you absolutely had to stack
or be very close to others
warm aspen
yeah lol like literally ANY los mechanic
lilac stag
the biggest bottleneck is the people you'll be grouping with if you pug
This affix seemingly doubled in difficulty from previous seasons.
tribal blade
This affix seemingly doubled in difficulty from previous seasons.
T R U E
warm aspen
This affix seemingly doubled in difficulty from previous seasons.
death "timer" tripling has something to do with that lol
lilac stag
the “one shots” or putting pug healers behind really rough on the low end
and the death penalty can really fuck you
shell lance
Maybe he intended the xal’atath affix bargain
keen dome
My experience trying to do a +10 was: wiping on the second boss (-1:15 to the timer), then the run back (-45 seconds to the timer) then fighting the boss again (-4 minutes to the timer). It's needlessly punishing when a full wipe is already a huge punishment. Don't need something so heavy on top of it too, imo.
warm aspen
Maybe he intended the xal’atath affix bargain
the real xalatath's bargain:
keen dome
Then you've also got how it creates, on the lower end, a very toxic relationship to mistakes where people'll freak out about a single death and ragequit.
tribal blade
no idea, i haven't simmed sub in a while
vale pine
!sheet
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
alpine wraith
yea a bit unlucky
sly fractal
lilac stag
<@146180393941336064> How much do you sim
FWIW 1.32 at 628
trim ridge
do u need to kill kyvetha in mythic to be able to be dropped in vault?
lilac stag
crit value took a dump
alpine wraith
for mythic transmitter yes
lilac stag
aye
trim ridge
i see
alpine wraith
there is a mechanic that if you kill later bosses you also get the previous ones unlocked
so if you for some reason killed court
even without ovi nax or ky veza killed you can get their loot too
that was done to prevent exploits
alpine wraith
i managed to get a normal one was unluckt with hc
keen dome
I've seen 1 drop and I did not win it. Maybe wednesday.
It's just gonna be another Smolderon trinket situation but I don't care enough this time.
trim ridge
does any of u guys have a wa to track flawless form?
the wa that i'm using now doesnt have an icon for it
hollow cobalt
I use Tellmewhen to track it
vestal escarp
warm aspen
ngl
i was hoping to have smething to replace transmitter from the new raid lol
even something slightly worse
but are we now the only spec that lines up super perfectly with transmitter?
hazy breach
Only rogue spec ye
warm aspen
wait is transmitter agil only
hazy breach
Theres a handfull of 90s classes across the game that use transmitter though
hazy breach
wait is transmitter agil only
No
keen dome
Hoping you do! Big agi boooooost button.
warm aspen
Hoping you do! Big agi boooooost button.
i myself kinda do and i kinda dont
the tasks...yikes
im worried i'll be slow with it
and my sectech misses the 10 trillion bonus main stat window
lilac stag
!transmitter
wicked joltBOT
The orb and circle from Treacherous Transmitter always spawn in the same spot. Relative to how your character is facing it spawns northeast/1:30 o'clock/frontright, this means you can know where it will spawn and react accordingly.
https://i.imgur.com/cTPN4Tz.png
warm aspen
or i dont reset my sectech fast enough, and THAT one misses the window
lilac stag
It’s really not bad to use
warm aspen
just due to fight mechancis
warm aspen
It’s really not bad to use
i guess i can only try it for myself and see
oh but imagine if burst trinkets had like dynamic cds/stats lol
shy ermine
Supercharger and coup make resetting sectech much faster
lilac stag
I’ve got vision issue and don’t have much worries with it
You learn to position yourself
warm aspen
like imagine if skardyn's cd would automatically become 90s for sub, but then grants less mastery too
is that cooking too hard lol
warm aspen
welcome to arms warrior
😆
lilac stag
just pray they don’t forget about agil 90 in s2
warm aspen
and ig this spec wont ever be able to rly use a damage proc trinket unless it's suuuuuper strong like Mad Queen's Mandate right
lilac stag
Every spec only uses strong trinkets. Idk what you mean.
trinket tuned high. You use it.
warm aspen
ah mb, what i mean is outlaw does quite well with sikran trinket right, but sub kinda doesn't?
and i assume because law is flat dmg, but sub has clear windows where they rly benefit from a burst trinket
alpine wraith
not like that
it is because we have bugs that help contract and mandate
ovi nax is actually quite good for us too
it outsims contract for me
as trickster
alpine wraith
as deathstalker those 2 are beter
yea stats are good when your skill actually have good scaling
lilac stag
yeah DS pushes some ahead
trim ridge
it is in the pack from LE
yea just realised in the pack i got its a bar instead of an icon
lilac stag
I’m assuming trinket sim sites are using an old DS build
gritty knot
Any sub high key players here who have XP with mandate trinket on Mist? It should be blasting on First Boss, right?
lilac stag
idk wtf bloodmallet has going on. Hahaha
alpine wraith
you just let one stack at 10
the other at 20
you can shoo betweend becoming and ADADADAD ape
or staying in place and moving sometimes
alpine wraith
Any sub high key players here who have XP with mandate trinket on Mist? It shou...
yes it works on first boss
you use transmitter on pull then mandate on his vuln phase
for some hilarious dps on that fight
best one i had i ended with 3.2m dps
warm aspen
oh so 10 seconds of moving into 10 seconds of standing still
sounds ctually kinda fun
gritty knot
@alpine wraith damn...I will def test that out....does mandate ramp up or get extra dmg from.smth? Or just send IT the Last Seconds on debuff
vale pine
I’m assuming trinket sim sites are using an old DS build
!sheet does not ^^
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
vale pine
but bloodmallet does not use any dungeon slice talent setup iirc
alpine wraith
use it just as the buff begins then you have time to dance once
alpine wraith
oh so 10 seconds of moving into 10 seconds of standing still
you can choose basically you keep either of the buffs at 20 then the other at 10 you can move a lot then stand still sometimes
or stand still and move sometimes
warm aspen
you can choose basically you keep either of the buffs at 20 then the other at 10...
and then the active just freezes the stats right
lilac stag
I just want a contract.
vestal escarp
hc contract so far always did less than mandate
yeah sure 3k agi but we dont use that
lilac stag
Fights with no queen crits are big sadge
sinful sluice
how hard is obvinax compared to previous bosses?
vestal escarp
as sub critting mandate is to ask too much
sinful sluice
we just started rading it today
sinful sluice
should i just run assa for this boss
lilac stag
nah
sinful sluice
think trickster 7 targets wont cover all
lilac stag
The parry is big for your melee
sinful sluice
weakaura took hours to set
lilac stag
I’d say being able to swap to prio add kinda big
It’s a dance and a WA boss
Have to look at kill times too
especially with supercharger I don’t think you should have any issues progging as sub
tribal blade
we just started rading it today
couple of tips:
ALWAYS PRIO CHECKING WHERE ALL THE EGGS ARE- most of your wipes will be from people missing eggs
always watch your feet- the swirlies can actually have 2-3 in one and your cheat won't save you if you get hit by 3 at once
alpine wraith
actually i have some tips for dmg
on pull use 2 dances
then wait for egg breaks and use 2 again
sinful sluice
what do you guys think of taking tornado in
alpine wraith
then you skip dance
tribal blade
hey hacha if you use TFD
alpine wraith
tornado is quite bad as trickster
tribal blade
do you just use sectec at the end of 12 seconds of dance
whenever it comes up
or do you hold it for the next dance after
sinful sluice
wait so opener 2 dances, and hold 3rd until egg break right?
lilac stag
wait so opener 2 dances, and hold 3rd until egg break right?
Yes. It’s only a slight delay
flag should be up for next set then
sinful sluice
noted
alpine wraith
afterwards it is a bit more whatever
lilac stag
our dmg is good enough that I got taken off kick duty. Haha
alpine wraith
i have to kick still messe smy dps sometimes
also important thing our flurry is around us
so you hev to be in front of the boss
lilac stag
our tanks are on dks just fir this.
alpine wraith
to hit spiders/works
sinful sluice
gorefiend is super op here right
alpine wraith
oh our means theris yea
lilac stag
Mixed up gores. What a timeline
Once tanks figure out the grips, and knockers figure out their part. It’s rinse and repeat. I think it’s like 200 ish pulls
flint umbra
are that hotfix nice?
Isn’t there an issue with secret tech not benefiting from something btw?
tribal blade
alright i'm doing a delve with TFD talented, this shit is hilarious
tribal blade
i love it
keen dome
It is. It owns.
alpine wraith
if you can only proc it once
tribal blade
i can see why, 12 seconds of dance is absolutely bonkers
keen dome
Sub feels so good right now. Absolutely wild. I was so sure it would suck but NO. GOOD.
shy ermine
I was a doubter too, but was very wrong
tribal blade
we were dooming on the changes, but they did a good job
now we just need A BIT MORE
keen dome
They did. I think on paper it just looked a little weird. but in play it makes total sense.
keen dome
now we just need A BIT MORE
Just need them to address some of the weirder routing / leftover builder nonsense like PV. Also gloomblade baseline
shy ermine
Combo point refund bugs are the big ones for me, on coup and replicating shadows
keen dome
Ye
lilac stag
alright i'm doing a delve with TFD talented, this shit is hilarious
I put a border color change conditional on my dance WA to show when TFD was up
tribal blade
Just need them to address some of the weirder routing / leftover builder nonsens...
agreed!
shy ermine
But sub feels sick to play now outside of those
tribal blade
I put a border color change conditional on my dance WA to show when TFD was up
ooo nice
keen dome
Bugfixing is def still a big hope of mine, but I put it in a different box than class design stuff.
tribal blade
i need to get me something
keen dome
I put a border color change conditional on my dance WA to show when TFD was up
oh, smart. I should do that.
lilac stag
keen dome
Ye. absolutely a good idea. I need to do that.
lilac stag
idk if there’s a better solution but made most sense to me
keen dome
Do you happen to have the SpellID for it?
tribal blade
oh you reminded me maybe i can get rid of snd WAs
but it might be good to track possibly
keen dome
Huh, yeah. Probably could.
lilac stag
hold on. Let me get out of bed.
keen dome
Oh, it's fine. Don't get out of bed on my account haha
tribal blade
ok i just did a bit over 2.5 mil dps with a TFD dance on a big group of mobs
with just dance and symbols
keen dome
tribal blade
b r o
lilac stag
I should probably get up and feed the animals anyways
I tried to tell you
YOU NO LISTEN
lilac stag
maybe because energy isn’t a resource for sin
keen dome
I miss vigor, but I tihnk with Symbols it's fine enough
lilac stag
Do you happen to have the SpellID for it?
bascially add that to your dance WA of choice
keen dome
Thanks, hero ❤️
tribal blade
oh shit nice
lilac stag
i'm assuming almost every rogue WA pack is using borders now
clever delta
With every assa nerf, sub Is stronger right
tribal blade
lemme screen cap that, ty scath
lilac stag
welcome
keen dome
Yep, worked. Thanks!
I was trying to do it with a glow, but couldn't get it to work. But this worked immediately. Appriciated.
lilac stag
not sure on the glows. i disable those right fast
tribal blade
ok i just walked off the edge of a cliff and died in a delve because i'm dumb
lilac stag
congrats
keen dome
I use them for a few things. For some reason it wouldn't activate, but the border works fine and is also fundamentally the same thing I was doing with a glow, so.
keen dome
I need to fix it, but got lazy. It's the better icon.
keen dome
❤️
My setup isn't so bad with the new icon.
I do need to stop being lazy and fix the text de-saturing too, though
clever delta
The new flag Icon make me feel like we have something new and cool tbh
keen dome
SHOULD BE PURPLE!!!
clever delta
It's kinda
keen dome
I do appriciate them moving away from the SL stuff and making these things more bespoke for the talent trees.
lilac stag
The new flag Icon make me feel like we have something new and cool tbh
doing actual dmg makes me feel that way
i think the flag icon is a L unfortunately
but easy enough to bypass
flint umbra
Why is sub so good rn
lilac stag
supercharger is good
flint umbra
What change was the thing that steered them this way
flint umbra
supercharger is good
Ah true
lilac stag
fixed some cdr issues
flint umbra
Now it isn’t bugged
tall sequoia
So i have a question, if i do brd and palace, will i grief chances of transmitter in vault?
flint umbra
Isn’t there a bug with sec tech tho
tall sequoia
maybe wrong channel sry
tribal blade
i'm using sub for the next mists i do hell yeah
flint umbra
I remember hearing that it was not benefitting from something, maybe supercharger idk
lilac stag
general? idk this is the least used spec channel
tall sequoia
alright, cheers
molten citrus
I remember hearing that it was not benefitting from something, maybe supercharge...
Blades iirc
lilac stag
I remember hearing that it was not benefitting from something, maybe supercharge...
blades and lingering (DS)
deathstalker shit basically
molten citrus
lol lingering too
lilac stag
since you've got less cdr and trying to compress into 16 seconds GLHF
molten citrus
What a game 
lilac stag
we're past WW monk levels of bug memes
lilac stag
whats the play in solo bg, is it tricky or is DS better
molten citrus
But the amount of bugs kills me
molten citrus
whats the play in solo bg, is it tricky or is DS better
DS is mostly the play everywhere but trickster is still quite decent
molten citrus
Lots of damage modifiers and better utility
lilac stag
pve wise, shockingly enough, they cooked with trickster right now
lilac stag
i dont plan on topping overall, but you need something dead I AM ON IT
haughty mural
i mean is powder spam different from evis spam ?
molten citrus
Yes
haughty mural
true
haughty mural
i am vibing currently
lilac stag
so yeah it's not just spam
haughty mural
thats all i asked for
lilac stag
debating on going focusing lense
haughty mural
i just did lol
lilac stag
minor gain
molten citrus
Storm-powder every other global for 30 minutes regardless of cooldowns
keen dome
I like ascension quite a lot so will probably just sit on it
molten citrus
Was boring af
haughty mural
so i wont spec into assa so soon again 
keen dome
Gonna recraft my stats back to versa mast though
lilac stag
i wanted to look at more logs with it to see if it double dips in amps
haughty mural
Was boring af
you are right
molten citrus
i wanted to look at more logs with it to see if it double dips in amps
Does it amp at all?
From our kit
merry agate
Haven't tried TfD in Keys... wesponmaster into TfD? Or what would you guys change
lilac stag
some of the bosses amp dmg, and the shadow one is slightly more dmg from the gem
molten citrus
some of the bosses amp dmg, and the shadow one is slightly more dmg from the gem
Because of our kit amping the Shadow? Or
lilac stag
Haven't tried TfD in Keys... wesponmaster into TfD? Or what would you guys chang...
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merry agate
Aye chief
lilac stag
Because of our kit amping the Shadow? Or
ye
molten citrus
Ooh
lilac stag
the mastery gems proc shadow (i think)
lilac stag
its funny how far crit fell off
keen dome
Yeah, haha
keen dome
the mastery gems proc shadow (i think)
they do yeah, purple
haughty mural
lens choses according which ones you have the most, right?
lilac stag
random
wet summit
I got a quick question, Do we still not use BP or do we use it but when we haven't used Sectec?
haughty mural
so better to just get onyx to force the shadow ones
lilac stag
with trickey? basically only real use is if you have coup with no sod charges. idk if it's even a gain then